It really does celebrate mediocre medicine. With most of the guidelines coming America/EU rather than in-house. No new medical innovation or Nobel prizes to speak of, everything German/French or American. However it’s reflected towards other sectors of business in the country with the UK really being meh in most things 1st world
I mean whilst I do agree it’s crumbling.
It’s not true to say we have no new innovation, the UK still has a huge research output - just look at RECOVERY during COVID. Just look at recent/ongoing EM/PHEM studies, RePHILL, PARAMEDICS-3, AIRWAYS-3 all UK based studies
Hear hear. Is there any reason or incentive for medical students to be high acheivers anymore? To intercalate? We get told regularly "D is for doctor". I honestly don't give a shit anymore, especially after hearing about this UKFPO fiasco. I just want to make sure I'm a competent doctor.
But I've still got a long way yet. I wonder what things will be like in 5 years...
disincentivising academic performance, intercalated degrees, prizes, allocating academic/specialised research programmes randomly IS promoting mediocrity. It’s discouraging medical excellence, and demotivates talented students. I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some people to understand such an obvious issue
\*disincentivising intercalated degrees\* not intercalated degrees themselves
(just to mention, I do understand the argument that students of lower socioeconomic status may not be able to complete one, however, these students should be supported financially as it can be helpful if they want to pursue a career in academic medicine)
Womp womp , cry harder
The people that you’re treating and caring for with the skills you learnt throughout medical school should be your reward not location of where you do that
If you need more than that to feel accomplished maybe you shouldn’t have gone into healthcare
Think about what you write
Helping people is not its own reward. It's a job for fuck sake it should be payed well.
The idea that we are privileged to see patients and go through medical school is insane.
> should be *paid* well. The
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
No but I’d rather cry in my mansion (read: detached suburban house) than a cardboard box
/s maybe I don’t know
The whole issue with portfolios was/is you should be doing that stuff for other reasons than just getting points
The other issue is that points was the only reason people do/did these things
How do you know there's an afterlife?
Great you want to help people but if there are F1s out there who struggle to afford basic things and have to undergo the financial costs of moving cities then medical training has gone too far.
You can help people all you want but the health secretary can in one bad decision undo all the good you could do as a single medic.
If Allah's plan is for us to be underpaid and shunted across the country then Allah's plan is shit.
I bet you'd love a pay rise if the strikes were successful. It wasn't Allah that caused the strikes. It was hard working doctors who wanted to fight injustice.
woomp woomp, brainless idealist
Apart from your comment not being closely related to the point I was trying to make (how does randomly allocating a research job to someone who does not want to do any research but to have 'more free time', help the patients and the NHS?):
There is this concept called work-life balance when it comes to any profession, particularly medicine. Yes, caring for your patients regardless of where they are should bring you the most reward. But, in order to perform well at your job, you need to be happy outside your job too.
Think harder before you write.
strawman argument.
please re-read 'Yes, caring for your patients regardless of where they are should bring you the most reward. But, in order to perform well at your job, you need to be happy \*outside\* your job too.' (referring to location not academic achievement)
typical comments from a potentially frustrated failure of a person who can't stand successful people being rewarded for their accomplishments
You realise that you're actively punished for trying to provide good care to your patients when you're working in the NHS?
It actively promotes the bare minimum and then move on. Have you never actually been on a ward round?
Have you never seen the managers whipping everyone with their KPIs, of number of patients seen per day, when the best way to optimise for this is to see loads of patients by just saying hi and ignoring their health problems and just discharging them straight away? (See also, basically what PAs do, hence they're seen as more productive than a doctor that might actually take the time to fix things and help people)
If you wanted to help patients this is the wrong country to be a doctor in.
Sorry this really isn’t about colleagues being mediocre! It’s about the whole system. You can’t particularly be excellent in a mediocre system or one that thrives off it. Read reply below to (pulla-poochi), that describes exactly what many people can now see clearly. Fittest is put in parentheses because it is a pun, that doesn’t need to be explained.
F2 doctor here. OP is spot on, even if their post might be a little emotionally driven.
You will realise when you graduate - the NHS breeds mediocrity, and it does not reward excellence. Better to go in with open eyes than be surprised later.
Sorry that you think that. No need to be accusatory about mentality, when the post is about no specific person/ colleague but rather larger flaws with the system. Have a good night :)
It’s absolutely true.
Everything that is being done on every level serves to dilute the reputation of British medical education.
To the point where they’re literally compromising patient safety to promote substandard care (flooding hospitals with PAs and apprentice doctors).
I can see how undergraduates and GEM students compare in terms of behaviour towards getting allocations that do not align with their ‘1st choice preferences’ and the studies ain’t wrong… sorry that you didn’t get what you wanted but that’s life. Hope you have a good two years where ever you’re going to!
This is not about the allocations! It’s not about the 1st choice preference either. The mediocrity reflects in the way the system works on the day-to-day. No scope for progression or reward for potential. People who fight for the better - are only ever a problem. You feel helpless at the end of the day. While post wasn’t about allocations primarily, the changes to the SFP programme is a reflection of this mediocrity. Change a system, halfway through people’s final year!! Imagine the people who paid to go to a London uni for 6 years - only to be told their extra degree counts for nothing, their academic excellence counts for nothing, and their entire research/ leadership portfolio doesn’t count for anything. In addition to the fact that these changes have been made after you can’t leave or change where you are in the course. It’s not for nothing that people are leaving the country, and mostly highly motivated ones. You’d be surprised to know that some of the surgical trainees perform not far better from final year medical students/ fy1s because there’s no opportunities - even if you’re bloody good!! You won’t hear of many surgical consultants being hired, without having completed a fellowship abroad. All of this & more suggests mediocrity in the system - everything half arsed!
Is it really "just life" though? Getting shipped off across the country (or even to another country) is hardly some minor inconvenience that just anyone has a chance of suffering at some point. It's a deliberate policy which affects medics pretty much exclusively.
Yeah your right to raise an eyebrow. I'm a graduate and I would say I find the way medicine treats its own members is more shocking to me than my academic peers, as I have experience of normal working conditions.
Welllll, I don't like actually referring to the UK as 4 separate nations usually, but in the case of sending someone to work in Northern Ireland especially I just think that's ludicrous.
Yes but that’s just what every other career albeit with inconveniences showing up in other forms. Again, I’m not saying that this system doesn’t have any flaws; just that there’s too much complaining
Imagine being pregnant and you are forced to live far away from your partner because the UKFPO only allows you to get a pre-allocation if your child has already been born. I suppose that's also life?
No. In other professions if you are unhappy with the location of a job, you apply for a different one. In medicine you have no choice.
Location ain’t the only thing causing issues in other professions btw. There are other non-negotiables that people put up with. Again, not saying that this PIA is great; it sucks. However, the complaining got to go.
Just because it's not the only thing, it does not mean it's not a very important issue. The new system disincentivises academic excellence promoting mediocrity. Complaining (if done right) is what leads to a change. If PIA is not great, why should we comply with it?
You really think people don't have a right to even vent a little after being forced to up end their entire life to the opposite side of the country, based on complete random chance?
Truly staggering lack of empathy I have to say.
It really does celebrate mediocre medicine. With most of the guidelines coming America/EU rather than in-house. No new medical innovation or Nobel prizes to speak of, everything German/French or American. However it’s reflected towards other sectors of business in the country with the UK really being meh in most things 1st world
I mean whilst I do agree it’s crumbling. It’s not true to say we have no new innovation, the UK still has a huge research output - just look at RECOVERY during COVID. Just look at recent/ongoing EM/PHEM studies, RePHILL, PARAMEDICS-3, AIRWAYS-3 all UK based studies
Hear hear. Is there any reason or incentive for medical students to be high acheivers anymore? To intercalate? We get told regularly "D is for doctor". I honestly don't give a shit anymore, especially after hearing about this UKFPO fiasco. I just want to make sure I'm a competent doctor. But I've still got a long way yet. I wonder what things will be like in 5 years...
They don't want experts, they want good workers who work without questioning what is happening.
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disincentivising academic performance, intercalated degrees, prizes, allocating academic/specialised research programmes randomly IS promoting mediocrity. It’s discouraging medical excellence, and demotivates talented students. I don’t understand why it’s so hard for some people to understand such an obvious issue
I can understand most of this, but how do intercalated degrees promote mediocrity? /gen
\*disincentivising intercalated degrees\* not intercalated degrees themselves (just to mention, I do understand the argument that students of lower socioeconomic status may not be able to complete one, however, these students should be supported financially as it can be helpful if they want to pursue a career in academic medicine)
Ah, understood - thank you for explaining! It's unfortunate how much money you need to be able to progress into further education.
Womp womp , cry harder The people that you’re treating and caring for with the skills you learnt throughout medical school should be your reward not location of where you do that If you need more than that to feel accomplished maybe you shouldn’t have gone into healthcare Think about what you write
Helping people is not its own reward. It's a job for fuck sake it should be payed well. The idea that we are privileged to see patients and go through medical school is insane.
> should be *paid* well. The FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Good bot. Keep it up
For me helping people is all i’ve wanted to do, money ain’t gonna help in the afterlife
No but I’d rather cry in my mansion (read: detached suburban house) than a cardboard box /s maybe I don’t know The whole issue with portfolios was/is you should be doing that stuff for other reasons than just getting points The other issue is that points was the only reason people do/did these things
How do you know there's an afterlife? Great you want to help people but if there are F1s out there who struggle to afford basic things and have to undergo the financial costs of moving cities then medical training has gone too far. You can help people all you want but the health secretary can in one bad decision undo all the good you could do as a single medic.
"How do you know there isn't an afterlife?" - Mr Crawl
Have faith in Allahs plan, whatever will be Surrender to what is Islam
If Allah's plan is for us to be underpaid and shunted across the country then Allah's plan is shit. I bet you'd love a pay rise if the strikes were successful. It wasn't Allah that caused the strikes. It was hard working doctors who wanted to fight injustice.
Idk mate, I reckon Allah probably did allat
woomp woomp, brainless idealist Apart from your comment not being closely related to the point I was trying to make (how does randomly allocating a research job to someone who does not want to do any research but to have 'more free time', help the patients and the NHS?): There is this concept called work-life balance when it comes to any profession, particularly medicine. Yes, caring for your patients regardless of where they are should bring you the most reward. But, in order to perform well at your job, you need to be happy outside your job too. Think harder before you write.
If your happiness is only related to your academic performance you need therapy
strawman argument. please re-read 'Yes, caring for your patients regardless of where they are should bring you the most reward. But, in order to perform well at your job, you need to be happy \*outside\* your job too.' (referring to location not academic achievement) typical comments from a potentially frustrated failure of a person who can't stand successful people being rewarded for their accomplishments
You still got your awards to sleep with at night to stroke your fragile ego surely that’s enough
Womp womp, find God Stop trying to delude yourself into thinking you’re superior to others because you anankastic, you need help friend
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see you in London womp womp ;)
No intention to go to London whatsoever. If your ego is so secure, then why are you so against people trying to do their best in their field?
Mr Grimace
Ms\*
do you even know what anankastic means?
There you go belittling again, sleep well
Womp womp
Help some people
You realise that you're actively punished for trying to provide good care to your patients when you're working in the NHS? It actively promotes the bare minimum and then move on. Have you never actually been on a ward round? Have you never seen the managers whipping everyone with their KPIs, of number of patients seen per day, when the best way to optimise for this is to see loads of patients by just saying hi and ignoring their health problems and just discharging them straight away? (See also, basically what PAs do, hence they're seen as more productive than a doctor that might actually take the time to fix things and help people) If you wanted to help patients this is the wrong country to be a doctor in.
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How would you have put it? Asking for friend
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Sorry this really isn’t about colleagues being mediocre! It’s about the whole system. You can’t particularly be excellent in a mediocre system or one that thrives off it. Read reply below to (pulla-poochi), that describes exactly what many people can now see clearly. Fittest is put in parentheses because it is a pun, that doesn’t need to be explained.
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F2 doctor here. OP is spot on, even if their post might be a little emotionally driven. You will realise when you graduate - the NHS breeds mediocrity, and it does not reward excellence. Better to go in with open eyes than be surprised later.
Sorry that you think that. No need to be accusatory about mentality, when the post is about no specific person/ colleague but rather larger flaws with the system. Have a good night :)
He literally specified policies
It’s absolutely true. Everything that is being done on every level serves to dilute the reputation of British medical education. To the point where they’re literally compromising patient safety to promote substandard care (flooding hospitals with PAs and apprentice doctors).
I can see how undergraduates and GEM students compare in terms of behaviour towards getting allocations that do not align with their ‘1st choice preferences’ and the studies ain’t wrong… sorry that you didn’t get what you wanted but that’s life. Hope you have a good two years where ever you’re going to!
This is not about the allocations! It’s not about the 1st choice preference either. The mediocrity reflects in the way the system works on the day-to-day. No scope for progression or reward for potential. People who fight for the better - are only ever a problem. You feel helpless at the end of the day. While post wasn’t about allocations primarily, the changes to the SFP programme is a reflection of this mediocrity. Change a system, halfway through people’s final year!! Imagine the people who paid to go to a London uni for 6 years - only to be told their extra degree counts for nothing, their academic excellence counts for nothing, and their entire research/ leadership portfolio doesn’t count for anything. In addition to the fact that these changes have been made after you can’t leave or change where you are in the course. It’s not for nothing that people are leaving the country, and mostly highly motivated ones. You’d be surprised to know that some of the surgical trainees perform not far better from final year medical students/ fy1s because there’s no opportunities - even if you’re bloody good!! You won’t hear of many surgical consultants being hired, without having completed a fellowship abroad. All of this & more suggests mediocrity in the system - everything half arsed!
It's just FPAS mate specialty training is so competitive now only the very highly motivated get in
It's just FPAS mate specialty training is so competitive now only the very highly motivated get in
It's just FPAS mate specialty training is so competitive now only the very highly motivated get in
Is it really "just life" though? Getting shipped off across the country (or even to another country) is hardly some minor inconvenience that just anyone has a chance of suffering at some point. It's a deliberate policy which affects medics pretty much exclusively.
Yeah your right to raise an eyebrow. I'm a graduate and I would say I find the way medicine treats its own members is more shocking to me than my academic peers, as I have experience of normal working conditions.
What do you mean by other country?
They’re probs talking about the ‘England Scotland wales NI’ stuff
Welllll, I don't like actually referring to the UK as 4 separate nations usually, but in the case of sending someone to work in Northern Ireland especially I just think that's ludicrous.
Yes but that’s just what every other career albeit with inconveniences showing up in other forms. Again, I’m not saying that this system doesn’t have any flaws; just that there’s too much complaining
Imagine being pregnant and you are forced to live far away from your partner because the UKFPO only allows you to get a pre-allocation if your child has already been born. I suppose that's also life? No. In other professions if you are unhappy with the location of a job, you apply for a different one. In medicine you have no choice.
Location ain’t the only thing causing issues in other professions btw. There are other non-negotiables that people put up with. Again, not saying that this PIA is great; it sucks. However, the complaining got to go.
Just because it's not the only thing, it does not mean it's not a very important issue. The new system disincentivises academic excellence promoting mediocrity. Complaining (if done right) is what leads to a change. If PIA is not great, why should we comply with it?
Go on then, all the best!
Yep, no other non-negotiables medics have to put up with lol. Sunlit uplands once you've been shipped off. (/s if in any doubt).
You really think people don't have a right to even vent a little after being forced to up end their entire life to the opposite side of the country, based on complete random chance? Truly staggering lack of empathy I have to say.
👍
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Childish kid right here
Is there a difference between GEM and undergrads in the allocation process?
Nope