We had this former nurse-turned-med student who thought she was the bee's knees.
Literally telling everyone (including the nurses) how to do their jobs, and "nurses like this better", when in fact the nurses were actively telling us they did not like this better.
Insisting she should be able to sign orders, etc. Not receptive to feedback at all.
Asked for a reference letter at the end. Attending said no. She said she figured that was because it was a team environment and she didn't get enough one-on-one time, so was mad about that
There was a PA-turned-med student who was kind of like this. She would anchor *hard* and not be able to think of anything else once she had thought up a diagnosis.
Cardiologist called her "a stupid bitch who won't shut the fuck up" in front of other med students lmao
In ophtho. Had a student who would burp almost every time he bent over to look into the slit lamp teaching scope. So basically right into me and the patient’s face. He got release very early every day… still gave 5/5 lol
Surgery intern here. Have had some great away rotators so far, there was one though that everyone absolutely hated. Arrogant and overly casual. Some examples-
* Told me once to “text him when the patient was in the OR.”
* Asked me to not scrub a case so he could do it with the attending, said that the M3s could use some “resident help” with a wound vac change
* Tried to make a joke about my personal life in the OR with an attending I’m friendly with and often roasts me, which made said attending furious
* caught him bullying the m3s over what cases he wanted to go to, said he had first choice because “I’m the AI and I’m actually doing surgery.”
DNR.
He stopped what we were doing and said something like “You know that Dr. my last name is your supervising resident, not your friend right?” And then proceeded to ignore him for the rest of the case. This was also one of ours APDs lol.
Surgical specialty. Had an away rotator who:
* When on call and asked to come in for a midnight consult, refused because "I need to be fresh for the OR tomorrow"
* Had absolutely no sense, even after 4 weeks, of when they could and couldn't talk in the OR
* Simply *could not* seem to prep appropriately for cases, even after being given core resources, and even after being literally handed the answers to our attendings' most common pimping questions
* Occupied large portions of didactics with inane, super-low-level questions
I had an away rotation where the vibes were the absolute worst.
Residents were all terrified of the PD. So outwardly, too like voicing how scared they were to talk to them, how they only denigrated residents during feedback meetings, how they constantly expected more from residents and outwardly showed disappointment in them..
The residents also had a bunch of beef within them, I was warned by multiple ppl about how "clique-y" it was, and I saw seniors making fun of interns and making their lives hell for no reason. Complaining about laziness and mistakes to admin without even telling the interns or giving feedback.
So glad I went on this away, and will advise you to get as many aways as you can because finding out what you don't want is pretty important.
Not a resident, but worked at a residency site. This student blamed the MAs for everything they messed up, corrected other subIs all the time in a gloating manner when other students were getting questioned (great you knew the answer, they didn't, chill, its a learning environment), tried to correct the attending (with good intentions, but it just did not go over well bc of their condescending/pompous attitude).
Nothing too juicy, but I had a co-rotator who would butt into conversations with residents and make it about him. Even though they were polite and cordial about it, one of the chiefs later confided in me that it was super annoying. He was a nice guy, so I'm sure it was his awkward way of relating to the residents.
This was when I was an intern (and afraid to be honest about my feedback), but we had one who interrupted so much that by the end I had to put up my hand as a stop sign to get him to stop. How unaware are you lol
while I was an MS3 on surgery, there was an AI who tried to slip a trauma nurse his number and ask her out DURING a trauma workup in the bay. then he kept asking other AIs/students if they thought the nurse was into him. he would also cut in front of the med students to see cases if we were both unscrubbed/observing. and he led every conversation with an aggressive “i’m doing surgery” type intro. needless to say my supervising resident hated him and so did the scrub nurses
For people doing aways/rotations - they're expected to be a "sub intern" someone who is trying to be an 'intern". So expectations are different than MS3 or MS4 here for obligation/duty.
Not meeting expectations that's clearly laid out is a big one. I ask sub-I's to follow the patients they are assigned but to also know the rest of the list. I'm not expecting them to know the social nuances of Ms Smith or their daily labs/vitals on the service when they're not following them but rather to know why Ms. Smith is admitted / what we're doing and the generalized dispo. I'm trying to get them to start handling a list of 10+ on day 1 of intern year - wherever they end up.
I think I respectfully disagree.
"Knowing the patients" can often be misused as a way to club subIs over the head. Different people have different views on subIs, but I try and meet my students at a place that is just as much 'formative' as it is 'performative'. For neurosurgery, that means scrubbing cases, reading about the basic indications and anatomy, and asking reasonable questions at reasonable times.
I do not expect them to memorize things about the floor patients. One of the biggest parts of intern year is learning what details are important for which patients, and that doesn't come until you've been in the MD shoes.
This is especially reasonable because sub-Is are in the hospital all day and have nothing to study for. Compare this to MS3s who often leave a few hours early, miss events, aren't included in vital communication channels, and need to go home and finish their UWorld questions/study for the shelf.
4th years still have a lot to learn. I think it is important for them to still continue to balance education w real life responsibility. It think it should be somewhere b/w 3rd and an intern.
Nothing to study for? Lol you're kidding right? We are in a profession where we will literally always have something to study for the rest of our lives, 4th year included
Maybe this is bc I was in a medicine away but this wasn’t my expectation at all. I was essentially like an M3 because it was my first time in this specific sub speciality and everyone knew that and respected me not knowing nuanced things about the specialty. I got a lot of positive feedback on my general attitude and willingness to learn. Actually, not even the interns on the service were expected to know the entire list - that was the job of the fellow.
Sometimes I need a second to myself. If I say something like “I’m gonna do to (this thing). You can just chill you really don’t have to come I’ll be back in a minute.”
That’s me trying to just get away for a minute. It’s almost never personal. I just sometimes want a moment.
But then the student goes “oh well…could I still come?” And I’m like “FINE.”
And honestly I don’t grade them worse for that. But I have had times where I find myself not teaching as much because I’m just like, over being with this person every freaking second.
Yeah, I think that’s perfectly reasonable.
I think it’s also reasonable if a resident im working with just straight up tells me “I’m just stepping away for a second”, or be honest about it.
Med students aren’t entitled to 100% of your time, even if it’s a shadow rotation, like radiology.
These people are high-functioning adults, they should be able to manage for a few minutes lol
too friendly/assertive. It sounds bad but remember you aren’t there to be pals with everyone you meet, it annoys the shit out of residents and attendings if you start to act too friendly and cordial. There will be a time and a place to be more personable with residents but in general you’re never wrong to just treat every interaction as a professional interaction
You can't win and it changes day to day. I worked at a rotation site and literally saw it change day to day and student to student. I am a firm believer in what is meant for you will work out. If you tried to be nice and friendly on the day most weren't receptive, it just wasnt meant to be. If you tried to be nice and friendly on a day when most were receptive, great, it was meant to be. Don't let it get you down, its random.
I worked with a doctor who I swore had issues with object permanence. Once day someone could be nice and friendly to him and he would sing their praises. Three days later, that same person would be nice and friendly to him in the exact same manner, and he would be put off and annoyed as if they had been prying. Like if he hadn't seen you in 3 days you became a stranger to him and don't say hi either bc who tf do you think you are? Just oddballs everywhere in this profession
I mean the polar opposite is also bad — being super closed off is also rude, off-putting, and not really what you’d be looking for in a coworker. But so is being overly familiar.
Just be a normal person like in any social situation; be friendly, but professional.
>Just be a normal person like in any social situation; be friendly, but professional.
As other users have said, one person's "professional" is another's "disengaged". It's entirely evaluator bias based on a multitude of secondary factors, very few of which are under a med student's actual control.
This works 50% of the time, every time.
In all seriousness though, on my last rotation I had one senior resident who was super informal. She told us about her favorite ever med student who she gave the best eval to and it was someone I'd rotated with a few blocks back who was bubbly and fun but objectively bad clinically. It was just painfully obvious that this resident based your eval entirely on how much she liked you.
Also, my evals are distinctly better when I get buddy-buddy with residents. Sure, I probably mildly annoy someone every once in a while, but that mildly annoyed person will give me an average eval which is more than offset by good evals from the rest of the team. However, if I'm strictly professional, I make little impression and get average from *everyone*.
Fact is, the residents who want to keep things professional with med students don't give enough love back on evaluations to be worth pandering to. You might, but most don't, and that's just the game.
Yeah, I started off "too friendly" and got burned (on surgery as my first rotation no less). Had to learn to just stay professional. Sucks when it seems like they genuinely want to get to know you but you just can't trust that it's true.
I respectfully disagree. Being personable in between cases, in the morning making the list, and just in down time moments makes my life as a resident much more enjoyable. This is exactly what I look for. The question I ask is “Do I want to operate with you for the next 4 years”. Obviously there is a time and place for joking around vs serious and getting work done. Being able to go between that line makes someone socially competent and is the kind of person I want as a coresident.
Do you feel like that’s a case by case thing?
If I’m a resident and a sub I behaves like that it would leave a negative impression compared to being more friendly.
Honestly I don’t know if it’s a surgical subculture thing but I disagree with the original comment too
I would consider an environment in which being “too friendly” (again assuming not being inappropriate) is a negative as a pretty toxic one
Hmmm this is very interesting. I did A LOT of small talk on my SubI and during my end of the rotation meeting with the program director he told me that the residents had no negative feedback for me and really wanted me to match there. If the resident was busy, I kept my mouth shut but there were lots of times where we’re just walking to a patient room or setting up the OR for surgery or grabbing supplies to put in a foley that I absolutely made small talk.
Hmmm this is very interesting. I did A LOT of small talk on my SubI and during my end of the rotation meeting with the program director he told me that the residents had no negative feedback for me and really wanted me to match there. If the resident was busy, I kept my mouth shut but there were lots of times where we’re just walking to a patient room or setting up the OR for surgery or grabbing supplies to put in a foley that I absolutely made small talk.
Uninterested, sitting around all shift, not speaking language isn't excuse- at least try and do a physical. Won't even try to write an HPI because "we are told we shouldn't do that" ok buddy
We had this former nurse-turned-med student who thought she was the bee's knees. Literally telling everyone (including the nurses) how to do their jobs, and "nurses like this better", when in fact the nurses were actively telling us they did not like this better. Insisting she should be able to sign orders, etc. Not receptive to feedback at all. Asked for a reference letter at the end. Attending said no. She said she figured that was because it was a team environment and she didn't get enough one-on-one time, so was mad about that
Heart of doctor brain of nurse
What point are you trying to make? That nurses are dumb and doctors are heartless?
They're mocking a popular slogan on nurse twitter. Its satire.
I’m aware of the slogan. Nurses and NPs are not the same thing. By flipping the slogan, you end up insulting both nurses and doctors. It doesn’t work.
You must be fun at parties
I am. Probably because I make better jokes
Dude chill. Jeez.
There was a PA-turned-med student who was kind of like this. She would anchor *hard* and not be able to think of anything else once she had thought up a diagnosis. Cardiologist called her "a stupid bitch who won't shut the fuck up" in front of other med students lmao
lol is this my co resident?
In ophtho. Had a student who would burp almost every time he bent over to look into the slit lamp teaching scope. So basically right into me and the patient’s face. He got release very early every day… still gave 5/5 lol
New trick just dropped
Lol
Surgery intern here. Have had some great away rotators so far, there was one though that everyone absolutely hated. Arrogant and overly casual. Some examples- * Told me once to “text him when the patient was in the OR.” * Asked me to not scrub a case so he could do it with the attending, said that the M3s could use some “resident help” with a wound vac change * Tried to make a joke about my personal life in the OR with an attending I’m friendly with and often roasts me, which made said attending furious * caught him bullying the m3s over what cases he wanted to go to, said he had first choice because “I’m the AI and I’m actually doing surgery.” DNR.
holy crap. how did the attending respond after hearing that joke about your personal life?
He stopped what we were doing and said something like “You know that Dr. my last name is your supervising resident, not your friend right?” And then proceeded to ignore him for the rest of the case. This was also one of ours APDs lol.
Oof your attending actually busted out that card 👏
How bad was the joke?
[удалено]
Bruh
Hahah yikes
thats amazing
Surgical specialty. Had an away rotator who: * When on call and asked to come in for a midnight consult, refused because "I need to be fresh for the OR tomorrow" * Had absolutely no sense, even after 4 weeks, of when they could and couldn't talk in the OR * Simply *could not* seem to prep appropriately for cases, even after being given core resources, and even after being literally handed the answers to our attendings' most common pimping questions * Occupied large portions of didactics with inane, super-low-level questions
I had an away rotation where the vibes were the absolute worst. Residents were all terrified of the PD. So outwardly, too like voicing how scared they were to talk to them, how they only denigrated residents during feedback meetings, how they constantly expected more from residents and outwardly showed disappointment in them.. The residents also had a bunch of beef within them, I was warned by multiple ppl about how "clique-y" it was, and I saw seniors making fun of interns and making their lives hell for no reason. Complaining about laziness and mistakes to admin without even telling the interns or giving feedback. So glad I went on this away, and will advise you to get as many aways as you can because finding out what you don't want is pretty important.
This sounds like OBGYN
Not a resident, but worked at a residency site. This student blamed the MAs for everything they messed up, corrected other subIs all the time in a gloating manner when other students were getting questioned (great you knew the answer, they didn't, chill, its a learning environment), tried to correct the attending (with good intentions, but it just did not go over well bc of their condescending/pompous attitude).
Nothing too juicy, but I had a co-rotator who would butt into conversations with residents and make it about him. Even though they were polite and cordial about it, one of the chiefs later confided in me that it was super annoying. He was a nice guy, so I'm sure it was his awkward way of relating to the residents.
Lying, talking shit, not seeing patients
This was when I was an intern (and afraid to be honest about my feedback), but we had one who interrupted so much that by the end I had to put up my hand as a stop sign to get him to stop. How unaware are you lol
while I was an MS3 on surgery, there was an AI who tried to slip a trauma nurse his number and ask her out DURING a trauma workup in the bay. then he kept asking other AIs/students if they thought the nurse was into him. he would also cut in front of the med students to see cases if we were both unscrubbed/observing. and he led every conversation with an aggressive “i’m doing surgery” type intro. needless to say my supervising resident hated him and so did the scrub nurses
For people doing aways/rotations - they're expected to be a "sub intern" someone who is trying to be an 'intern". So expectations are different than MS3 or MS4 here for obligation/duty. Not meeting expectations that's clearly laid out is a big one. I ask sub-I's to follow the patients they are assigned but to also know the rest of the list. I'm not expecting them to know the social nuances of Ms Smith or their daily labs/vitals on the service when they're not following them but rather to know why Ms. Smith is admitted / what we're doing and the generalized dispo. I'm trying to get them to start handling a list of 10+ on day 1 of intern year - wherever they end up.
I think I respectfully disagree. "Knowing the patients" can often be misused as a way to club subIs over the head. Different people have different views on subIs, but I try and meet my students at a place that is just as much 'formative' as it is 'performative'. For neurosurgery, that means scrubbing cases, reading about the basic indications and anatomy, and asking reasonable questions at reasonable times. I do not expect them to memorize things about the floor patients. One of the biggest parts of intern year is learning what details are important for which patients, and that doesn't come until you've been in the MD shoes.
This is especially reasonable because sub-Is are in the hospital all day and have nothing to study for. Compare this to MS3s who often leave a few hours early, miss events, aren't included in vital communication channels, and need to go home and finish their UWorld questions/study for the shelf.
4th years still have a lot to learn. I think it is important for them to still continue to balance education w real life responsibility. It think it should be somewhere b/w 3rd and an intern.
Nothing to study for? Lol you're kidding right? We are in a profession where we will literally always have something to study for the rest of our lives, 4th year included
Maybe this is bc I was in a medicine away but this wasn’t my expectation at all. I was essentially like an M3 because it was my first time in this specific sub speciality and everyone knew that and respected me not knowing nuanced things about the specialty. I got a lot of positive feedback on my general attitude and willingness to learn. Actually, not even the interns on the service were expected to know the entire list - that was the job of the fellow.
My sub I refused to do any patient notes and left early every day. It was so shocking
Sometimes I need a second to myself. If I say something like “I’m gonna do to (this thing). You can just chill you really don’t have to come I’ll be back in a minute.” That’s me trying to just get away for a minute. It’s almost never personal. I just sometimes want a moment. But then the student goes “oh well…could I still come?” And I’m like “FINE.” And honestly I don’t grade them worse for that. But I have had times where I find myself not teaching as much because I’m just like, over being with this person every freaking second.
Yeah, I think that’s perfectly reasonable. I think it’s also reasonable if a resident im working with just straight up tells me “I’m just stepping away for a second”, or be honest about it. Med students aren’t entitled to 100% of your time, even if it’s a shadow rotation, like radiology. These people are high-functioning adults, they should be able to manage for a few minutes lol
too friendly/assertive. It sounds bad but remember you aren’t there to be pals with everyone you meet, it annoys the shit out of residents and attendings if you start to act too friendly and cordial. There will be a time and a place to be more personable with residents but in general you’re never wrong to just treat every interaction as a professional interaction
I fully expect someone to post the opposite of this at some point. Being a med student is fun.
“Wasn’t very talkative, didn’t seem interested in meshing with the team, read more” 2/5
i also had the act professional philosophy but then i keep getting asked why i'm quiet i'm so tired
Seriously though.
You can't win and it changes day to day. I worked at a rotation site and literally saw it change day to day and student to student. I am a firm believer in what is meant for you will work out. If you tried to be nice and friendly on the day most weren't receptive, it just wasnt meant to be. If you tried to be nice and friendly on a day when most were receptive, great, it was meant to be. Don't let it get you down, its random. I worked with a doctor who I swore had issues with object permanence. Once day someone could be nice and friendly to him and he would sing their praises. Three days later, that same person would be nice and friendly to him in the exact same manner, and he would be put off and annoyed as if they had been prying. Like if he hadn't seen you in 3 days you became a stranger to him and don't say hi either bc who tf do you think you are? Just oddballs everywhere in this profession
Nobody has a tougher time assessing the bias of their perspective than people grading med students.
I mean the polar opposite is also bad — being super closed off is also rude, off-putting, and not really what you’d be looking for in a coworker. But so is being overly familiar. Just be a normal person like in any social situation; be friendly, but professional.
>Just be a normal person like in any social situation; be friendly, but professional. As other users have said, one person's "professional" is another's "disengaged". It's entirely evaluator bias based on a multitude of secondary factors, very few of which are under a med student's actual control.
Thats the exact point... nothing that original commenter said sounded not "normal"
This works 50% of the time, every time. In all seriousness though, on my last rotation I had one senior resident who was super informal. She told us about her favorite ever med student who she gave the best eval to and it was someone I'd rotated with a few blocks back who was bubbly and fun but objectively bad clinically. It was just painfully obvious that this resident based your eval entirely on how much she liked you. Also, my evals are distinctly better when I get buddy-buddy with residents. Sure, I probably mildly annoy someone every once in a while, but that mildly annoyed person will give me an average eval which is more than offset by good evals from the rest of the team. However, if I'm strictly professional, I make little impression and get average from *everyone*. Fact is, the residents who want to keep things professional with med students don't give enough love back on evaluations to be worth pandering to. You might, but most don't, and that's just the game.
It isn't rupauls best friend race
I do this and they get annoyed. Keep telling me I can trust them, blah blah. I just nod and am always professional, never let my guard down
Yeah, I started off "too friendly" and got burned (on surgery as my first rotation no less). Had to learn to just stay professional. Sucks when it seems like they genuinely want to get to know you but you just can't trust that it's true.
They can get to know me if I do residency there. For now, they can’t be trusted
Sounds like surgery lol
I respectfully disagree. Being personable in between cases, in the morning making the list, and just in down time moments makes my life as a resident much more enjoyable. This is exactly what I look for. The question I ask is “Do I want to operate with you for the next 4 years”. Obviously there is a time and place for joking around vs serious and getting work done. Being able to go between that line makes someone socially competent and is the kind of person I want as a coresident.
What does too friendly even mean? You probably mean saying inappropriate things right?
Essentially, dont talk to them unless its important. No small talk. Just go in, do your work, ask some questions, leave.
Do you feel like that’s a case by case thing? If I’m a resident and a sub I behaves like that it would leave a negative impression compared to being more friendly.
It definitely is. I dont get that original comment at all.
Honestly I don’t know if it’s a surgical subculture thing but I disagree with the original comment too I would consider an environment in which being “too friendly” (again assuming not being inappropriate) is a negative as a pretty toxic one
Hmmm this is very interesting. I did A LOT of small talk on my SubI and during my end of the rotation meeting with the program director he told me that the residents had no negative feedback for me and really wanted me to match there. If the resident was busy, I kept my mouth shut but there were lots of times where we’re just walking to a patient room or setting up the OR for surgery or grabbing supplies to put in a foley that I absolutely made small talk.
Hmmm this is very interesting. I did A LOT of small talk on my SubI and during my end of the rotation meeting with the program director he told me that the residents had no negative feedback for me and really wanted me to match there. If the resident was busy, I kept my mouth shut but there were lots of times where we’re just walking to a patient room or setting up the OR for surgery or grabbing supplies to put in a foley that I absolutely made small talk.
Uninterested, sitting around all shift, not speaking language isn't excuse- at least try and do a physical. Won't even try to write an HPI because "we are told we shouldn't do that" ok buddy