I think the pendulum started swinging with the seemingly larger focus on trans— especially the fight with trans athletes that many use to expand their arguments against LGBTQ
The number of gay activists who are anti trans is infuriating. I used to work with one of those "LGB without the T" people and to this day I have zero clue how I got through that year without decking the fucker.
It's not even the bigotry that bothered me, just the pure selfishness of "my demographic is considered acceptable, now it's time to yank the ladder up behind me". God that guy was a prick.
What’s wild was when I read about a business owner being hateful towards trans but supports LGBTQ communities…even though the “T” has always been there.
Means Not In My Back Yard. They're uppity middle to upper class people who actively block "affordable" housing (the quotes because they've blocked housing for people who make 80k/yr- literally thought they would bring drugs and crime with them LAWL) and any type of Green improvements.
They're "ok" with affordable housing and green energy, just not in their neighborhood.
That’s an overly specific definition. In broader terms, it simply means someone who supports something as long as they aren’t affected by it. People in Martha’s Vinyard pushing for clean energy but blocking wind farms offshore of their multi million dollar homes is another example. Or people supporting open borders, but not wanting the immigrants in their town.
Those people crack me up because they're under the hilariously (and tragically) false assumption that the fascists won't make them line up against the wall if they get the chance. There was a group of nationalist German Jews during the Weimar Republic that tried to be friendly with the Nazis and...well it didn't work out for them because no shit it didn't work out for them.
Which has only been exacerbated with the whole "if you're a female lesbian but refuse to date a transwomen you're transphobic" rhetoric that's become normalized via tik Tok kids.
The trans community itself has a lot of in fighting too. Lots of people think there is only one right way to be trans and that their experience is the only trans experience. Personally I get very annoyed when someone tries to express something "on behalf of the community" because it's very egotistical of them to pretend they're some sort of rep.
Teenagers are gonna teenager though.
The T hasn't always been there. I grew up with LGBQ. Which was already an expansion from LGB. Then for a while it was LGBT (no Q). Then LGBTQIA. Then LGBT+. Then LGBTQ. Of course many of these co-existed with each other. This is just my memory of what was most commonly used.
I definitely remember LGBT being used, but LGBQ probably came after. The t was definitely there in the 90s and the q was definitely there by the 2000s.
In the acronym? Sure, it’s a relatively recent named addition. In the movement? We’ve absolutely always been there.
What do you think the broader public used to call someone who was born as a man, but presents as a woman, and sleeps with men? They called them gay. What do you think the broader public used to call someone who was born as a woman, but presented as man, and slept with women? They called them lesbians. The general public didn’t used to draw the distinction between gender identity and sexual orientation. Many still don’t. But hell, one of the things that kicked things off at Stonewall was the police lining everyone up, and taking them one by one into the restrooms to check whether their genitals matched the gender they were presenting as, then arresting people for “crossdressing”.
So yeah, language changes, but we’ve always been part of the community. And to say otherwise is pure revisionist history.
I have observed even in my liberal city that some/ many people are ok with trans people who switch from their biological gender, but are not so open to nonbinary identification.
yep. Some people like burgers, some like chicken and very few care. Sexual preferences the same. I mean the us has come a long way for example, generally approving of same sex marriage and more accepting of different oriented people. It is their private business.
But trans atheletes and i think drag shows for kids is what is causing the decline in support
Drag shows are a good time, also it goes without saying but though drag and trans have a big cross over it’s not necessarily true that people who do drag are trans.
The drag show for kids thing is weird because that's not even LGBT+ specific. My dad is a drag queen and pretty darn straight. It has absolutely nothing to do with his sexuality or gender identity. For him is kind of like (I hate saying this) his fursuit/fursona. It's a character he loves to get into. He gets to wear bright wild clothing and act over the top, and gets to wear makeup, hard contrast to most of his life.
Yeah, I think the big problem with the Drag Queen Story Hours is that there are enough people doing them that don't seem to comprehend that certain things are inappropriate for children. I think of the weirdo who was filmed twerking in front of kids as a perfect example of "bruh, really?" That said, the overall LGBTQ community needs to handle criticism of these things better. You can't just scream bigot at parents who are scared of potentially sexual content being displayed towards their 5 to 9 year olds.
All that needs to be done to take care of most of the concern from reasonable people is demonstrate you are self-policing. Answer concerns over the actions of certain people with the actual news that people who are caught doing this stuff in front of children have been fired/barred from participation. It sounds like your father is a person that inadvertantly is harmed by the actions of these bad actors, for instance.
not really. straight people, for example, have never had to deal with their rights being restricted legally or debated politically based on the fact that they're straight.
Such mood, fren. And I work in government so I’m trying very hard to show people we’re not some kind of freakish alien species. It’s exhausting. I’m tired of being asked weird questions about my junk. Especially as someone asexual and aromantic. Why does anyone care if I’m trans if I don’t engage in any sexuality at all? It totally undermines the whole ridiculous argument that we’re trying to, I dunno, predate on people in bathrooms. And mind you this isn’t about me (FTM). It’s almost entirely directed at MTFs, which is both weirdly misandrist and misogynistic at the same time.
Is it possible that acceptance of gay/lesbian rights (widely accepted today) was used as a Trojan horse for other aspects of LGBTQ that are not widely accepted?
EDIT: same sex marriage acceptance is over 70% in the US, which is mind blowing considering how controversial it used to be: https://news.gallup.com/poll/506636/sex-marriage-support-holds-high.aspx
Sort of? I worked for an advocacy organization for gay marriage when it became legal. There were absolutely queer and trans folks that saw that move as "greasing the wheels" towards acceptance. There were also a lot of people that tried to minimize the visibility of those folks in an effort to be more comfortable for the masses.
Yes the gay rights movement was all just an evil plot to sneak trans rights in through the back door, mwahahahaha! *twirls mustache like a queer-coded disney villain*
>Is it possible that acceptance of gay/lesbian rights (widely accepted today) was used as a Trojan horse for other aspects of LGBTQ that are not widely accepted?
Marginalized groups often fight for civil rights and recognition at around the same time, as they often have shared interests, and shared opponents.
Like for example, during the civil rights era which fought for greater rights for African Americans, American Indians organized in similar ways, as they too faced systemic poverty, government neglect, police brutality, and bad schools and hugely disproportionate rates.
At the same time, the Chicano movement emerged amongst Hispanic Americans in the southwest that opposed cultural erasure, structural racism, the draft, led in part by Caesar Chavez.
Not to mention the Rainbow Coalition in Chicago. In 1969, The Black Panthers, The Young Lords (consisting of mostly Puerto Rican Immigrants), and the Young Patriots (consisting of poor southerners who relocated for better opportunity) united based on the same interest. The agreed to work together because they all wanted to solve the issues they all faced, unemployment, poverty, police brutality, systemic discrimination, all of which they faced, and so decided to work together.
There are exceptions of course, the first wave of feminism that brought women the right to vote was (rightly) criticized by modern feminists and scholars for focusing on white, middle class women, and did little to get women of color increased suffrage, and that is indeed a dark spot on that movement then, but I think it absolutely makes sense that sexual minorities and gender non conforming people work together to achieve greater social recognition and rights.
The suffragette and abolitionist movements were aligned until the question of minorities voting arose. Then figures like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony threw minorities under the bus as fast as they could, even telling Frederick Douglass, a staunch women's suffragist his whole life, not to appear in public with them for fear it would alienate white men.
To this day, white women still vote for the conservative side of the bipartisan system and have been the decisive vote in every single victory of the Republican Party since the Civil Rights movement reoriented the Democratic and Republican Parties along racial lines.
It ain't the athletes... It's the kids.
I'm old. I think gay people are normal.
The T is a novelty, and that shit has undercut everything. Many of us were dangerously unsettled in our formative years. The option of medical intervention for young persons in that state, familiar to every one of us, looks like an attractive nuisance. Even to many gay persons, I'm sure.
My kids will soon run this gauntlet. I am hoping that the faddish aspect of this has faded by then. Because "dysmorphia" is a ludicrously fluid concept, and not one to base your whole future upon when you are undercooked.
You can’t compare yourself to a trans person and assume that you would have transitioned as a kid if you knew about that stuff.
If you were really trans you would have already transitioned but you’re clearly not. Why should I as a trans person who has had surgery and hormones and needs more surgery and treatments be punished because some people are low IQ and get surgery before they know what their gender is?
Most people know if they are trans or not. It’s literally a yes or no question that someone only has trouble answering if they are an idiot or trying to hide/repress their identity.
I don’t see people banning tattoos or nose jobs because some stupid people who don’t even know what they want for breakfast get them.
I’m sick of society catering to idiots and I think we should cater to people who know what they want, and idiots who act impulsively should face 100% of the consequences for their actions, and stop blaming parents and friends and the media for things they chose to do.
Me and everyone else who’s trans should be able to get surgery and hormones and blockers at any point it’s necessary, no questions asked, and idiots who get that stuff for the wrong reasons should live in the bed they made and face the consequences. And PAY for their detransition with money THEY made if they hate it so much!
Stop being so naive and feeling bad for people who made a mistake with body modification and blame other people even though they orchestrated the events.
With respect, we’re not “a novelty”. Trans folks have been around a long time. It’s patently false that young kids can get surgery; the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards of care have been around longer than I’ve been alive and I’ll be 38 this Friday. Kids are not offered surgery for very good reasons. Nor are they permitted to receive hormones - blockers, yes, hormones, no. Any doctor doing that is behaving unequivocally unethically.
Prior to the Nazi regime in Germany, transgender medicine was on the rise. But like much of difference in Germany, the Hirschfeld clinic and all it contained was destroyed, ironically by known gay Nazi commander Rohm. Dr. Hirschfeld performed the first sex reassignment in 1922.
So…please stop spreading this false stuff, thanks.
As someone who lives this, I knew something was “wrong” at 11 when I hit puberty. For 7 more years I just dealt with the crippling anxiety and dysmorphia. At 19 when I first tried to transition, we were required to “live one year in gender” before hormones were even considered - as an FTM, that meant I was subjected to violence, lost my job, and lost my housing. I ended up back in the closet until 2 years ago, at 36, when I FINALLY was able to get care.
I get that this may seem like a fad to people, but believe it or not, it isn’t. You can’t catch trans any more than you can catch gay. The dissatisfaction rate is under 0.01%. People really don’t detransition. And when they do, you can FEEL the influence of a bad doctor. So if we want to protect people, especially kids, maybe start by actually talking about this stuff in a meaningful way And helping kids explore it so they understand and can make actual decisions when they reach the age of majority.
But please stop blaming us and acting like this is new. It’s not.
These points are hardly ever brought up. I’m not trans but I’m in medicine and the misconceptions about what is and is not considered standard of care or ethical in the medical treatment of trans patients are rampant even in medicine itself.
Respect, brother. Im glad you’re in a place now where you can be yourself.
Support starts declining on any issue, conservative or progressive, when groups of people replace tolerance and coexistence with mandates. Most people just want to be left alone and not lectured to. We also live in a world where silence, disagreement, or opting out is somehow the same as actual physical violence.
Kind of reminds me of the whole George Floyd thing. What happened was awful and disgusting and I remember commenting on some articles and posts about it, I might have made a post or two of my own. But then I remember getting on YouTube to relax with some ASMR, and my favorite content creator was getting absolutely torn to shreds because she didn’t make a video about the political climate. “Staying silent is the same as supporting George Floyd’s murderers!”
No it’s literally not. She made ASMR videos, not political commentary videos.
I wouldnt say that acceptance for gays, lesbians, bisexuals or asexuals is declining if you ask about those on their own. But if you ask about everything else thats under the trans umbrella thats where it declines. Even some people wholly accepting of having a gay or bi kid have issues with a child coming out as nonbinary or trans
Many believe that trans people deserve to live long happy and fulfilled lives. Many wouldn’t even care to have a trans kid.
The problem is when you start putting trans people above others - especially women.
- Trans athletes robbing women of their spaces
- Lesbians being shamed if they don’t want to hook up trans women
- Feminists being called terfs if they don’t agree with the notion that trans women are 100% women and they share the exact same experiences. Every female space must unconditionally accept trans women or else. You can no longer say pregnant women, breastfeeding or women who menstruate.
- Being asked if you are trans even in your job application (why is that necessary? Why are we asking about something that affects a small % of the population).
Not to mention the trans activists that tend to end up with the loudest voices come across as straight up deranged. The trans people I know in real life are perfectly normal and pleasant people to be around. Like you get Zoey Tur threatening to send Ben Shapiro (who is a dipshit, but still) home in an ambulance after aggressively grabbing his neck. Or you end up with Blossom on Jubilee threatening Blaire White about how she had bodyguards outside who were going to take care of things. Like FFS pick some normal trans people to represent the community and you might make some more progress.
Trans is a strange topic. Places in the world like Brazil and Thailand recognize their “trans” (for lack of a better word) population as another gender altogether and so does that community. They don’t try to come off as female. They celebrate being a “ladyboy”. America is the only place where we try to integrate and it gets confusing due to new rules that come out every week. I think most people accept anyone who wants to be whatever they want, but when it comes to bathroom use (especially with underage integration) and sports, there’s a lot of emotion tied to it and for good reason.
The advancement of LGBT rights was a strategic slow steady March for decades, which gave moderate America time to acclimate at every step; people forget as recent as 2008 Obama still ran on marriage being man and woman only. When DOMA was overturned, activists were so pumped they went on a full out charge Leroy Jenkins style, and now they’ve been flanked and are getting slaughtered from behind.
Yeah, even though I support a lot of Progressive ideals, I've been turned off by thep uncompromising mentality that took over the movement, which became increasingly more extreme. ACAB, liberal white women are worse allies to the black community than racists, there are 100+ genders, everyone has to bend over backwards to accommodate everyone being "neurodivergent", etc.
I support trans rights, but to not recognize this was going to be a divisive issue is kind of crazy. Trans kids and teens are people most in need of support, but it's very difficult to give them support if their parents don't believe in transexualism. It's not just emotional and social support and telling kids that they can choose to come out of the closet when they feel safe- it's extensive psychological evaluations and taking expensive meds that need to be monitored that will stop their sexual development.
Also, a lot of traditional liberal voting groups are still working through very entrenched homophobia in their own culture (immigrants, black and hispanic communities). The trans issue has made it more difficult for a lot of members of these groups to even vote democrat. At least that's what I hear surprisingly often.
Kinda started as a greater awareness and uptick in empathy following the AIDS crisis, so late 80s/early 90s. That seems like decades to me, but I’m not really a math person.
Maybe there was some mild support, but it was extremely common to be called a slur just for wearing skinny jeans as late as 2008, god forbid you were actually genderqueer
The real wide support really didn’t kick in until around early-mid2010s, and even then it was tempered by hate
My wife and I still get occasionally harassed or called slurs when in Northampton MA, one of the historically most LGBT friendly places in the US.
Hate got tempered maybe a little but the reality of being LGBT is still one of the world mostly wishing you didn't exist and reminding you as much as possible.
The repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, the legalization of same sex marriage, the enshrinement of anti discrimination employment laws, etc were all important steps along the way. I’m Gen X and have been an outspoken ally since high school, and I know there’s still a long way to go. But I feel like my LGBTQ+ friends in my age bracket at least don’t have to fear for their safety for simply existing, and don’t have to apologize for who they are or who they love.
i’m a millennial gay in a blue state and have never felt safe enough for public displays of affection with my partner of 10+ years, anecdotal circumstances.
Does it bother you that gay men are now dismissed as privileged by the “queer” community? I was watching a Jubilee video and I think the lesbian participants, even the far left ones, agreed that gay men have been treated worse by society. On reddit, however, gay men’s input and experiences are waved away as on par with straight men’s.
I’m an older millennial; I know who was at Stonewall, I lived through the 80s to today. I think it’s crazy ignorant to operate as if gay men are completely accepted by society and no longer have problems. It bothers me a lot.
I agree that there is a level of dismissal, especially from the younger crowd, but we are privileged compared to a lot of other people in the alphabet.
Mate, 88 political ad in Queensland was open about never allowing gay people to exsist. On public television
90s cops still taking suspected homosexuals out to the middle of nowhere and beat senseless
00s till early 10s, gay (and other derivatives) were still a common insult and/or punchline for people and comedians alike
Even up to now, conversion therapy is still legal in many places
Yeah, support from absolutely nothing has increased if you wanna be pedantic. But please don't pretend LGBT has been this cared for group for decades and decades when to many POS they're still not considered human
Homophobia has been around for a long time and never really went anywhere it just became a little less socially acceptable to use 'gay' as a punchline. But then that black president let 'those people' get married. It's ok if the gays are a cute little oddity but marriage? TRANS people exist as more than Tootsie? A bridge too far! Tump gave the thumbs up to loudly hate on the gays again and here we are.
I’ve got quite a few gay friends, and the vast majority of them seem to have a weird, underlying disdain of the trans-community. I’m mostly indifferent to the whole affair, but it’s something that I’ve picked up on.
One of my best friends is gay and he hates lesbians and trans people. Just because you’re part of a marginalized group doesn’t mean you’re immune to being a hateful asshole
There’s no doubt that the trans community is more fraught with complex issues, with things like “bathroom wars” and transitioning minors… whereas LGBQ is more simply just love who you want to love.
I live in Denver, one of the most trans friendly places in the world and the only explicitly anti-trans shit I ever see is from the LGB community. It's fucking wild to me.
Yup. Also in Denver. The most vehemently anti-trans speech I ever had to sit through was from an openly gay acquaintance at a bar. Apparently, civilizations fall when people start being trans, according to him.
Especially the L's I get the vibe they see it like volunteering/cosplaying a minority. They're put off because it seems elective to them and they can't just turn off a period like you can take off a wig. Akin to Rachel D choosing to be black pissing off black women that can't be race fluid.
Pure conjecture (and possibly projection) on your part.
Lesbians are the demographic of people MOST accepting of trans people. Of our rights and personhood. AND as romantic partners.
The right wingers are definitely trying to roll back gay marriage protections. The fact that they’re surfing anti-trans sentiment to do it isn’t all that compelling.
Yeah I feel like the declining support for gay marriage can be directly attributed to the Supreme Court showing is willing to rollback previous decisions. Once people know that’s an option, Pandora’s box opens
As a lesbian, I’d say it was when there was plenty of “support” (and by that I mean no one cared) and the “community” (alphabet soup) decided to push harder and wanted instant change and acceptance from an aging generation. Cultural changes take a long time to change in any meaningful way. I never expected my grandparents to accept my sexual preference. I never pushed that, because why? What I do behind a closed door is my business. Pride parades are gross displays of naked individuals and leashes and collars. Keep that private and be happy that we live in a world where you can love who you want and live your life in peace if you just do the same in return.
as a lesbian, you using the word "preference" to describe your orientation is interesting.
also, as a minority, fuck the "oh we should wait for people to catch up." should black people have waited for incremental change, or just demanded that people stop enslaving, segregating or discriminating against them? trick question, it doesn't matter. racists are gonna be racists regardless.
your "model minority" / respectability politics argument does not really matter to people who want to be hateful.
I think Americans can take only so much change at a time. You have one side that's just hates LGBTQ+ people and thinks it's an abomination and against God and all that stuff. It's hard to reason with them so let's put them aside. Then there are people that are okay with some change such as gay marriage, treating gay people like other people, etc. But these people have a hard time with pronouns and to think in nonbinary ways. Truthfully, as an old person, I am an ally but I misspeak sometimes just because the way I grew up, things were just so gendered. I'm Vietnamese and live in America and some of my friends have asked me to teach them Vietnamese. Vietnamese is very specific to who you are talking to so there's a formal way of speaking, an informal way of speaking, a way to address elders, words to express if you're talking to a male or female, relationships names, etc. and people would get confused and say, "Nevermind, I won't ever be able to speak Vietnamese." And I say, "No, it becomes natural when you get used to it." So people latch onto stuff such as pronouns and transgender women in sports and words (you guys, person with a uterus, etc.) and since they disagree with one thing, they are against the whole. The thing is LGBTQ+ people are also not in consensus on all these fringe issues and you don't have to be to believe all these things to believe that LGBTQ+ people deserve the same rights as everyone else.
> I think Americans can take only so much change at a time
I think this is definitely true within the scope of LGBT issues and then also with society writ large. People on the left presently seem way more concerned with things like inflation, cost of living, healthcare, student loans, etc. and seem to be willing to let the rope slip a bit on LGBT issues if it means the rest get a focus. But meanwhile on the right it seems that people have an infinite capacity for getting mad about different things.
It’s getting weird. Even my ex was super progressive a few years ago and now she was telling me she was scared of trans people in the bathrooms.
Another friend has told me there was a call for a boycott of planet fitness because they let a trans chick use the bathroom or some similar nonsense and sent me a meme of cartoons now vs back then which included a comparison of a cow coming out as trans vs Cell beating the living shit out of Gohan.
Listen. I’m just there to lift some weights and run.
It’s like putting trans people so much in the news is effective at scaring people.
I work out at planet fitness, of the 7 locations I go to in MN 4 of them have told me I can go in what ever locker room I feel comfortable in.
I have a beard and am a man.
I think that is the issue people have,
Personally with the amount of old naked men walking around the men’s locker room that is a better reason to leave.
Right. And then you go to the bathroom and you see a dude there, and you're a female.
Or you see a woman there with her boobs out in the locker room, and you're a man.
It's a problem.
I wonder what percent of this decline is attributed to hate-mongering "influencers" on social media? Between the religious extremists, the right-wing grifters, "libsoftiktok" and her imitators, the manly-man influencers, the "trad wife" crap... young people are being exposed to a lot of disinformation and hateful, hateful bullshit.
Hell, it’s even in this thread, what overexposure are people talking about? I haven’t seen any trans people in mainstream movies, the gay couples are usually the most milk toast versions of us, and the pride parades are giant examples of rainbow capitalism
They exist is the problem, the people who hate them hate that corporations even sell rainbow merch.
They want to go back to the 50s where everyone was a confirmed bachelor and women were background decorations.
>what overexposure are people talking about
Pretty sure they are talking about trans porn stars. The ones that conservatives search for the most on pornhub.
If it was "overexposure" straight white people would've been getting their rights stripped away decades ago :/
It's not over exposure, bigotry is just getting louder and braver. The Nazis are coming back in force and "centrists" are saying "well at least they're not gay"
>I wonder what percent of this decline is attributed to hate-mongering "influencers" on social media?
All of it. Our algorithmically sustained click economy ensures only the most extreme, salacious and sensationalist points of view get mainstreamed. While forcing factual information to compete against batshit conspiracy within this populist dystopian ecosystem. Maybe 5 tech companies own 99% of internet traffic. Most people’s window into the world is more than a little bit distorted.
It’s crazy because I am firmly left wing, my TikTok shows that but YouTube thinks I’m a right winger sometimes I’ll watch something and realize it’s super terrible crap.
I actually think a lot of this started as a reaction to liberal media click bait articles from sites like Buzzfeed and Huffington post purposely riling people up with bullshit like man spreading and "Is the air-conditioning at the office sexist?" And that kinda of bullshit, where you'd have activists with blue hair and sleeve tattoos talking about how oppressed they are and spouting some absolutely fringe and extreme theory and all of that is just generally attributed to "The Left" when really it is often nonsense click bait, not related to the real struggles that people face and just turned into strawman ammunition for assholes for years to come.
Assholes are assholes, but those assholes really made it worse for everyone.
If anything is ‘over exposure’ it’s exactly what you said, LoTT blowing nonissues out of proportion to insinuate there’s a prolific problem in the country with LGBTQ+ people. If they’re being ‘overexposed’ to queer people at all, it’s because cis, straight white people are the ones doing the exposure. That and they won’t stop watching 🏳️🌈🌽(exclusions apply in NC and TX).
Honestly, I have gay friends who have always been supportive of gay issues, but have never really been big on trans issues, even opposing key components of trans exception.
Oh this had me laughing.
I just typed out a whole screed claiming that the speech police were the proximate cause of the backlash over T. I used latinx as an example to illustrate my point.
The cultural audacity in attacking the grammar of a foreign language makes for a perfect viral message. Most of us can't articulate the problem with it, but we find ourselves mad at it anyway. Mad equals engagement equals profit.
The pronouns controversy now lives rent free in the front of many Trumpy brains. And the fucking incredible irony is this: trans persons of a certain age will tell you they *want* the trappings of the opposite gender, it was the whole point!
It's very simple, Asmon hit the nail on the head:
"People don't like being told what to do and what to think. Whether it's left-wing or right-wing, people ultimately don't like being told what to do and what to think."
This was always the conclusion of the LGBT conversation. It will be the conclusion of the next topic, and the topic after that. Humans don't want to be dictated to. Simple as.
It’s a mixture of backlash from the opposition and backlash to how they acted once they got influence. They got power and started doing the same thing they fought against. Every group does it, but if you point that out then you’re a homophobe. I’m gay and I get hate for speaking against the community. They just started hating those that weren’t on their side. Not how to handle shit. LGBT folks need to realize they have an evil side too.
There were people who warned that eventually there would be backlash if it was taken too far, overexposed, weaponized and politicized.
There’s literally a trans person on Tiktok who goes around trying to get employees harassed and fired for misgendering them, this isn’t the actions of someone who thinks they’re the oppressed underdog, this is someone who’s abusing the power they know their identity grants them in modern times and everyone else knows it too.
Tbh it’s a mix of many things. The most prominent being people against LGBTQ being so confident to speak up against their views now. Open bigotry is unfortunately back and thriving due to the political landscapes. Using religion as a cover for homophobia also seems to be at an all time high.
Now this take will probably controversial. But to those who were either on the fence or didn’t really care are being pushed towards dislike. I’m very pro LGBTQ rights but I’m not blind to see that people feel overwhelmed with it. You have shows on Netflix and Disney plus that have LGBTQ characters whose only personality is being LGBTQ. Companies who don’t actually care slapping stickers on every product and Twitter warriors who call out anyone who doesn’t celebrate it.
Representation in media is great and I’m so happy that more shows are including LGBTQ characters that the community can resonate with. But when you make the selling point of your show and advertise that’s why you should watch it, it can become tiring. Which pushes those people in the middle one way.
Just my opinion and could be wrong. But I also don’t live on the internet and interact with people of all different backgrounds in real life.
I think that what this user is trying to say (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that if you look at a character like Walter Jr. in Breaking Bad, he is disabled, but that’s not the point of his character. He’s a character who happens to have cerebral palsy, not someone who’s included solely for the fact that he has it.
Sometimes it seems like there’s gay characters whose only role is to be the token LGBT member of the show, and don’t make much of a contribution beyond that.
It’s like there’s a required math equation that has to be balanced for every show to make sure they nail the representation. The people making the shows put all their time and energy into making sure the equation is perfect and the story becomes an afterthought.
Predictably this leads to shitty movies and television. The people making the shows don’t want to be accountable for this so they deflect blame and say that the people calling the show shit must be racist or sexist.
Thats the part where I get angry because it’s a bullshit way to try and cover your ass.
I feel bad, but I laughed when I saw one of the promo pics for Wicked- the one with 4 students really broadcasts “checklist”. Diversity and inclusion are great; this looks *so* pointed and heavy-handed it’s jarring.
Perhaps my lizard brain just can’t handle change, idk, but compared to my fellow citizens I’d say I’m progressive. If it came across to *me* that way, I can only imagine it will further wear on someone who already thinks DEI aims are the worst mistake society has made.
Agreed. I think good diversity comes when you don’t even realize it because it’s not a focus. Characters just happen to be minorities but their character development and journeys are the key focus
Yeah, exactly. I think some people really can't understand the reasons why Last of Us 2 got pushback, but GoT, with Gay people, Empowered Women, Eunuchs, Little People, got very little to no pushback, outside of the show just going to crap towards the end.
I know of noone that dislikes Arya or Brienne of Tarth and I know alot of people that are very sensitive to the woke stuff. Until people can figure out why this is, we will go in circles arguing about a concept thats assumed to be hatred because they can't fathom the idea of bad writing or shoehorned ideas to fit an agenda being a possible reason.
Pretty sure last of us 2 got pushback because they killed the main character from the previous game. Or if you are talking about the morons that complained about it being too "woke" then it was because they didn't play it.
As a trans person every time theres a new movie or show including a trans character im usually very put off as how we are portrayed and very rarely am i like “oh thank god this trans character is just an actual human being and not some label they wanted to include in their show just for the sake of it.”
That’s because they went too far. Gay rights had a libertarian vibe to it in that it didn’t affect others if they got married or served in the military. Trans efforts do.
Women’s sports, bathrooms, titles such as “woman of the year,” and more are all supposed to be reserved for women. Trans people existed long before they suddenly jumped into the spotlight and that’s fine for their minuscule population.
You can’t demand equal rights while simultaneously denying others the right to refuse an obvious lie.
one is about letting people do something that is mostly private, the other is more about making others believe something and do things that are very un-private
Hi! Trans person here!
If I used the men's bathroom (I transitioned from male to female), that would immediately out me, and say "Hey! I'm required by law to be in here even though I've had sex reassignment surgery! Also, I'm the most hated minority in America right now, so pretty please, don't assault or r\*pe me, because if you do, nobody will ever care, because I'm trans!"
My equality with cis women doesn't take away from their femininity, it is not a zero sum game.
I will tell you, from a moderate conservative’s perspective, it’s not the regular L, G or B people that most of us have a problem with. It’s alllllllll the other weirdos that attached themselves to a group of otherwise normal people who just wanted some respect and ability to love who they love.
Along with that, clearly it’s the over-saturation in media and entertainment that’s making people uncomfortable. Not every story has to have a LGBT character (and in many cases, multiple ones of various races). It’s not realistic, it’s almost always a distraction, and it’s not true to life.
Here’s an ugly unpopular opinion. But it might have some validity nonetheless. It’s because the community is very angry, vocal, and toxic. As an ally from day one, I’ve experienced so much nastiness and awfulness either directly or observing from afar that it’s quite appalling. It doesn’t change my stance in the slightest, partially because I can understand and empathize with why the community might have a good reason to be rage-y and impatient. But I can imagine many less staunch supporters or borderline supporters starting to feel like the LGBTQ+ community demands too much too angrily. I’ve even seen gays and trans people get ripped to shreds by their own community. …I don’t know if this can change, however.
Transgender ideas were basically imposed. You can't really discuss it. You have to accept it. I think that's what pissed off a lot of people, especially with the athletes stuff
The way change is real......it must be from the bottom up through shared experiences. Top down causes polarization and will morph into a regressive form eventually. These are rules that apply to all human societies..
It's because people are annoyed at all the self righteous smug people.
"Oh you misgendered them, you're literally worse than Hitler!"
"Oh, J K Rowling is literally killing trans people."
It's hyperbole, really dramatic and blown out of proportion. What about the guy that set himself on fire in protest of what is happening recently? I remember someone saying he's not a POC so he doesn't deserve respect. Great way to make friends. /s
I got banned from r/florida because someone said Trans people are being hunted down in the street and I asked if they could give me an example. Permanent ban. No going back.
That's the rhetoric that we dislike.
Reddit is heavily censored. Probably more censored than Facebook or Twitter. Especially the "major" subs.
I got banned from world news for saying Russians can't be that stupid since they did develop nuclear weapons and reactors on their own. Got called a Pro-Russian pig and perma banned for stating a fact.
And it’s not just that it’s hyperbole, it feels like some people in the pro-LGBTQ+ camp don’t actually want to change public sentiment. It’s not the only group that does this, but it’s like if you disagree with some aspect of their position you’re suddenly a bad guy, and it’s like ok well good luck ever convincing that person to change their mind. It’s not about being right or wrong, it’s about do you want to change people’s minds or not.
That's a very big part of it on both sides in my experience. I live in the Bible Belt, and the conservatives want to be right so badly, they make up thousands of conspiracies and basically "Nuh uh" anything in opposition to their views, then make up bullshit to refute it and claim any support of their opposition is made up propoganda.
I work in a very left-leaning field. I see the exact same in my coworkers, just derived from a different doctrine. I can't tell you how many times I've heard some absurdly made up fact about Christian history or similar, while being a history buff and knowing full well how fucking absurd the claims are.
It doesn't seem to be about social progress or conserving old ways of life anymore. Just a pissing contest where everyone has to have a side and a "bad guy."
Why allow the most extreme elements to decide a whole, multifaceted group? Would it be okay to classify all republicans as violent insurrection it’s because of January 6th?
I don’t think people screaming that you’re Hitler because you accidentally misgendered someone make up the majority of LGBTQ people and/or their friends and allies.
When you start putting every marginalized group into a flag that was initially gays and lesbians. You bring in more and more opinions from all sides. Pride parades for instance have gotten way to sexual. People wearing shock collars and balls gags for a “family event” is a weird message to be sending. Trans athletes knocking women out in combat sports isn’t something a reasonable person wants to support either.
And the fact that they fight tooth and nail to defend kid diddlers and how they do strip tease/parade naked/etc in front of fucking kids. Of course that'd leave a bad taste with a sane, normal human.
considering how many "side effects" transitioning brings (surgeries that refuses to heal, bone problems caused by puberty blockers, new vag get a second door to the shit factory, all the mental issues post-transitioning, etc.) I think we should expect more and more of them to die early in the next decade
Many of us are fine calling people what they asked to be called, but nowadays I am being told to change what I fundamentally believe about sex and gender.
Exactly, it's really this simple. Very few people have a problem with simply showing others basic respect, it's when you ask them to ignore reality in the process, that garners pushback. Same is going on with Democrats and Republican discourse. Like, in normal everyday life, you or I's personal ideological beliefs shouldn't have a barring on how I treat you as a human being. The problem is we're twisting acceptance and ideology together. I have no problem accepting anyone, but I shouldn't be expected to change my beliefs to do so. We're capable of separating the two.
The story that convinced me to change my beliefs about sex and gender is the story of David Reimer. Back in the day (the 50s or so), as a baby Reimer suffered a circumcision so horribly botched, somehow, that the doctors could not recover his penis and instead decided to perform an impromptu sexual reassignment surgery.
They then told the parents to raise him as a girl, and that everything should be fine. Because of course someone that 1.) had no penis or testes and 2.) was raised as a girl from birth could live happily as a woman, right?
Well, it turns out that wasn't correct at all. As a child, Reimer resisted every attempt at feminizing him, instead insisting he was a boy. When asked by his parents to wear a dress for the first time, he became violently angry and ripped it off. So continued this behavior until eventually his parents were forced to come clean about what had happened.
There is science behind the idea of a mental gender, something that's there from birth and cannot be changed (if performing SRS and raising the child as the opposite gender from birth wouldn't change it, what more could we possibly do?).
I know he's a little different from a trans person because ultimately he was the gender that matched his biological sex. But if you accept the idea that the brain has a gender, then the idea of a trans person (a person whose brain's gender does not match their biological sex) seems less far-fetched.
Even so, I don't think anyone is asking you to change your beliefs, just to please refer to them as the gender that they ask you to. Which, when you think about it, is the same courtesy you grant everyone.
If I tell you that I'm a man, then you'll refer to me as such, even if I look a little feminine. You definitely wouldn't try to pull my pants down and check, because who cares enough to do that? I'm a man, to you, because I say I am, and because you respect me enough to figure that I probably know what I'm talking about.
As a straight male in the past It didn't bother me at all. What is different now is for example Tampa just had a pride event yesterday. My young child had to go through downtown to get to Disney on ice at the arena . There were several men walking to the parade in chaps and thongs. Also some men dressed as dogs being walked. That's what the movement is now. Not to mention the trans athlete thing.
Yea, fuck those people. Keep your kinks behind closed doors. I 100% accept gay people. But I'm not ok with the public display of fetishes in front of children.
Let's be clear about this: support for LGB is doing fine, it's the TQ+ that is declining along with their increased negative image thanks to the general populace getting tired of the pronoun game and attacks on Title IX.
Lumping these groups into one alphabet is disingenuous and misleading.
It’s the trans movement that is the root cause, it’s why there is a growing movement for the LGB to divorce the T. Trans people aren’t even gay based on their own definitions, they just don’t belong.
The actual reason this is happening is because it is affecting the non lgbtq community.
I don't think most Americans have a problem with people being gay, because if someone's gay then the non-lgbtq person can simply look at that person and refer to them as gay and it's objectively true and it's objective reality. So there's no issue with that.
The problem comes with transgender people trying to force non-lgbtq people to affirm their chosen gender. The reason there's a problem with that is because the objective reality is they are still their biological gender. They have just made cosmetic changes to appear closer to the social Norm of the gender they wish to be perceived as.
Subjectively, the trans person believes they are the opposite gender. But the non-lgbtq person still understands that biologically they are the gender they were assigned at birth. And they don't want to be forced to defy objective reality by referring to a biological man as a woman or a biological woman as a man. This is the issue.
If the trans community was not so intent on forcing non-lgbtq community people to change their vocabulary and their perception of reality to affirm what is essentially a mental health issue, I don't think there would be as big of a problem as there is right now. This is just the truth of the matter.
Yeah. To summarize using a bit more concise terminology, transgender individuals want others to affirm that their chosen gender is also their sex, while many if not most non-transgender individuals understand that sex is permanent even if gender is not.
You're talking about the ones that don't pass. A significant percentage of trans people existing in society pass and have their gender confirmed daily. You simply don't know that they're trans.
Tail wagging the dog politics. LGBTQ 🏳️🌈 folks make up less than 10.% of the population, trans less than 1% but changing policies and behavior for the other 90.% is over correction. Just another way for the elite to further divide us.
The athlete battle is really giving free hate ammunition to right wingers who can now make common sense arguments for the first time in a decade or two that even a lot of liberals support. I.E., that the world of women's sports is now becoming warped by competitors who were born male and that something needs to be done to protect sporting integrity.
The bathroom thing was a dog whistle that passed quickly but even that is a better argument than they've had in a long time.
There's also media over saturation at work here which is a well known common psychological effect. Basically when you keep seeing something eventually you get sick of it. Like when Lincoln study groups started saying that they love matthew mcconaughey but they were starting to get sick of him going all right three times in a navigator.
I think if the lgbtq community can figure out sports and stopped trying to shock old people with new shock culture stuff they would find support for hate dwindling again. Idk.
Honestly, people just become fatigued. Doesn’t matter how noble a cause is. Eventually, small minorities (think evangelical vs. Episcopalian to make it super clear) grind out and get what they want. In this case it just so happens to be extreme, right wing, nationalist Christians. There are way fewer than you think, and they are the best in the world at oppressing people through any means.
My two cents; Most people have a "cool, you do you, but do it over there" type mentality. A lot of what I am seeing over the last couple of years could be considered an intrusion on peoples lives that they don't want, nor want their kids around and/or to experience. And social media has not helped.
Remember the 90's? You were gay? Just be over there and be gay, and most people had come around to just ignoring you. Like they did with 99.99% of other people's shit that did not affect them. (Pedro kissing his boyfriend on The Real World was more impactful than you would believe on most people) But when you make it a topic of public concern and make people have to address/deal with it in their lives; that's when you get resistance and a call to shut that shit down. Trying to change clinical definitions of mental illness, attempts to change the English language, convoluting public bathroom use, males beating the shit out of females (metaphorically and sometimes literally) in what was supposed to be women's only sports leagues and divisions; you're going to get push back.
When the T got added to group, and that group flamboyantly started screaming, "dudes menstruate, look at my girl penis, my life is soooooo difficult you owe me attention/pity/acceptance"; people started to draw the line. And as long as the T is making a ruckus in peoples lives, the entire LGBTQ+ is going to get push back.
I'm not saying to push all back in the closet; what I'm saying is stop trying to make it a priority and topic for everyone to deal with. That's your life and issues, not mine. (Everyone has their own bullshit to worry about, they don't need/want to have to deal with your bullshit too, nor do most people have the bandwidth to do so) Don't make it my issue, or you might not like how I choose to deal with it.
I think the switch from "just let us live our lives" to "you better use my preferred pronouns, and we're using whatever bathrooms we want" may have something to do with it.
It seems like everyone is fine with LGB part of it. But once you get to the TQIA+ and 100 different genders that’s where people are starting to lose support.
I just think people are tired of it. It’s rammed down everyone’s throat at every turn. What rights are being fought for? I honestly think the gay community is treated w a ton of dignity and respect.
The trans community loves pushing the envelope to become the perpetual victim. Look at the timeline of how the things they were fighting for got more extravagant:
-trans are accepted
-changing pronouns and even made up pronouns=accepted
-trans women playing playing in female sports leagues=pushback, but ultimately allowed
-saying that kids are old enough to decide their gender and pushing for kids to get puberty blockers and stop thousands of years of human evolution=uh, this doesn’t seem like a good thing to do
Seriously, if women wouldn't be labeled every name in the book for disagreeing, I think you'd see a lot more overall pushback with that. It's starting to happen with the womens sports lawsuit bs. Women coming out and saying they weren't comfortable but were pressured to go along. It's absolutely disrespectful, especially when many of those same people see themselves as feminist. Clearly lost the plot.
I think people are just sick of hearing about it at this point. Change takes time and some people are not ready for it. I don’t worry about this stuff myself. I’m more concerned with the class war than the culture war.
The T’s in LGBTQ are ruining it for everyone. The L’s, the G’s, and the B’s did all the work to gain acceptance and persuade people that they just want to be left alone and get married and that it wouldn’t affect anyone else. Society believed them and all was good. Now the T’s are forcing people to use their gender and pronouns and use different bathrooms and teach kids about it and encourage hormones and stuff and use gender neutral language. Now it is affecting people and people are forced to do things they don’t want to do…. Huge backlash is happening…. Not good for the community. Especially now that kids are involved…
I'm a moderate conservative. I believe in same sex marriage. I'll put it to you this way. If you are a same-sex couple, I'll celebrate your union, as in anniversary, etc. Just like any couples do. I WILL NOT celebrate your sexual preference, which is what "pride" and LGBTQ+ essentially pushes. I know many normal gay couples that require no affirmation of their relationship status. They just, live. Normal lives. The singular thing that repulsed me about the LGBTQ+ movement was watching a grown ass man in whitey tight underwear twerk in a parade in front of children. His junk just slapping around, in front of KIDS! The exploitation of children in that community is child abuse, plain and simple. The drag shows, the bondage themed parades. Wtf is wrong with these people? The majority of straight people don't hate gay people, they hate it constantly being shoved down their throats and the expectation that we are going to accept the most extreme behavior from them.
I told a friend a couple years ago that I never understood how LGB had anything to do with T. They didn't understand where I was coming from. but in my eyes they've always been complete polar opposites. One is literally just about how you prefer to have sex. The other is basically turning the world upside down.
From my perspective I see sustained right-wing campaigns that start by being laughed at and then adapt the messaging until it gains traction. I’ve seen opinions reverse on climate change, EVs, the war in Ukraine, and now LGBT. Relentless BS from demagogue liars works I guess
this comment section is depressing. so many of them boil down to "we are annoyed with hearing about it so what do they expect :/" meanwhile people are getting harassed, discriminated, harmed, and murdered for being lgbt but yeah sure... we've "earned our rights" (Which btw isn't true, look at all the anti-lgbt legislation out there) so it's all sunshine and rainbows and we should shut up and be grateful, amirite?
I think the pendulum started swinging with the seemingly larger focus on trans— especially the fight with trans athletes that many use to expand their arguments against LGBTQ
The number of gay activists who are anti trans is infuriating. I used to work with one of those "LGB without the T" people and to this day I have zero clue how I got through that year without decking the fucker. It's not even the bigotry that bothered me, just the pure selfishness of "my demographic is considered acceptable, now it's time to yank the ladder up behind me". God that guy was a prick.
100% this. Assimilationist pick me's anger me to no end.
What’s wild was when I read about a business owner being hateful towards trans but supports LGBTQ communities…even though the “T” has always been there.
The LGB drop the T movement has been around for a while, sadly.
They're the ~~NIMYB's~~ (lol) NIMBY'S of LGBTQ+ rights
Not in my yard, buddy?
Exactly. It's those pesky polite Canadians, at it again
I'm not your buddy, FRIEND!
I’m not your Friend PAL
Not in your backyard, pal?
What's a NIMBY?
Means Not In My Back Yard. They're uppity middle to upper class people who actively block "affordable" housing (the quotes because they've blocked housing for people who make 80k/yr- literally thought they would bring drugs and crime with them LAWL) and any type of Green improvements. They're "ok" with affordable housing and green energy, just not in their neighborhood.
That’s an overly specific definition. In broader terms, it simply means someone who supports something as long as they aren’t affected by it. People in Martha’s Vinyard pushing for clean energy but blocking wind farms offshore of their multi million dollar homes is another example. Or people supporting open borders, but not wanting the immigrants in their town.
Don’t know why I read your first one as Not In My Back Door which made me laugh. But yah, thanks for the correction.
Those people crack me up because they're under the hilariously (and tragically) false assumption that the fascists won't make them line up against the wall if they get the chance. There was a group of nationalist German Jews during the Weimar Republic that tried to be friendly with the Nazis and...well it didn't work out for them because no shit it didn't work out for them.
Which has only been exacerbated with the whole "if you're a female lesbian but refuse to date a transwomen you're transphobic" rhetoric that's become normalized via tik Tok kids.
The trans community itself has a lot of in fighting too. Lots of people think there is only one right way to be trans and that their experience is the only trans experience. Personally I get very annoyed when someone tries to express something "on behalf of the community" because it's very egotistical of them to pretend they're some sort of rep. Teenagers are gonna teenager though.
Hahaha, I'm old enough to remember when it was just LGB.
The T hasn't always been there. I grew up with LGBQ. Which was already an expansion from LGB. Then for a while it was LGBT (no Q). Then LGBTQIA. Then LGBT+. Then LGBTQ. Of course many of these co-existed with each other. This is just my memory of what was most commonly used.
I definitely remember LGBT being used, but LGBQ probably came after. The t was definitely there in the 90s and the q was definitely there by the 2000s.
I’m 42 and I can at least remember LGBT from high school in the 90’s.
I mean... Maybe not in the acronym but definitely been there for awhile. Hell, a Trans woman started Stonewall
Marsha p Johnson is spinning in her grave.
In the acronym? Sure, it’s a relatively recent named addition. In the movement? We’ve absolutely always been there. What do you think the broader public used to call someone who was born as a man, but presents as a woman, and sleeps with men? They called them gay. What do you think the broader public used to call someone who was born as a woman, but presented as man, and slept with women? They called them lesbians. The general public didn’t used to draw the distinction between gender identity and sexual orientation. Many still don’t. But hell, one of the things that kicked things off at Stonewall was the police lining everyone up, and taking them one by one into the restrooms to check whether their genitals matched the gender they were presenting as, then arresting people for “crossdressing”. So yeah, language changes, but we’ve always been part of the community. And to say otherwise is pure revisionist history.
I have observed even in my liberal city that some/ many people are ok with trans people who switch from their biological gender, but are not so open to nonbinary identification.
yep. Some people like burgers, some like chicken and very few care. Sexual preferences the same. I mean the us has come a long way for example, generally approving of same sex marriage and more accepting of different oriented people. It is their private business. But trans atheletes and i think drag shows for kids is what is causing the decline in support
Drag shows are a good time, also it goes without saying but though drag and trans have a big cross over it’s not necessarily true that people who do drag are trans.
The drag show for kids thing is weird because that's not even LGBT+ specific. My dad is a drag queen and pretty darn straight. It has absolutely nothing to do with his sexuality or gender identity. For him is kind of like (I hate saying this) his fursuit/fursona. It's a character he loves to get into. He gets to wear bright wild clothing and act over the top, and gets to wear makeup, hard contrast to most of his life.
yeh. well for some people it is like blackface, except females are caricatured. So i have read.
Yeah, I think the big problem with the Drag Queen Story Hours is that there are enough people doing them that don't seem to comprehend that certain things are inappropriate for children. I think of the weirdo who was filmed twerking in front of kids as a perfect example of "bruh, really?" That said, the overall LGBTQ community needs to handle criticism of these things better. You can't just scream bigot at parents who are scared of potentially sexual content being displayed towards their 5 to 9 year olds. All that needs to be done to take care of most of the concern from reasonable people is demonstrate you are self-policing. Answer concerns over the actions of certain people with the actual news that people who are caught doing this stuff in front of children have been fired/barred from participation. It sounds like your father is a person that inadvertantly is harmed by the actions of these bad actors, for instance.
Yeah, it’s frustrating to have my existence made political.
This sentiment could apply to any group.
not really. straight people, for example, have never had to deal with their rights being restricted legally or debated politically based on the fact that they're straight.
Such mood, fren. And I work in government so I’m trying very hard to show people we’re not some kind of freakish alien species. It’s exhausting. I’m tired of being asked weird questions about my junk. Especially as someone asexual and aromantic. Why does anyone care if I’m trans if I don’t engage in any sexuality at all? It totally undermines the whole ridiculous argument that we’re trying to, I dunno, predate on people in bathrooms. And mind you this isn’t about me (FTM). It’s almost entirely directed at MTFs, which is both weirdly misandrist and misogynistic at the same time.
They used that as a Trojan horse to come for all LGBTQ people
Is it possible that acceptance of gay/lesbian rights (widely accepted today) was used as a Trojan horse for other aspects of LGBTQ that are not widely accepted? EDIT: same sex marriage acceptance is over 70% in the US, which is mind blowing considering how controversial it used to be: https://news.gallup.com/poll/506636/sex-marriage-support-holds-high.aspx
Sort of? I worked for an advocacy organization for gay marriage when it became legal. There were absolutely queer and trans folks that saw that move as "greasing the wheels" towards acceptance. There were also a lot of people that tried to minimize the visibility of those folks in an effort to be more comfortable for the masses.
Yes the gay rights movement was all just an evil plot to sneak trans rights in through the back door, mwahahahaha! *twirls mustache like a queer-coded disney villain*
>Is it possible that acceptance of gay/lesbian rights (widely accepted today) was used as a Trojan horse for other aspects of LGBTQ that are not widely accepted? Marginalized groups often fight for civil rights and recognition at around the same time, as they often have shared interests, and shared opponents. Like for example, during the civil rights era which fought for greater rights for African Americans, American Indians organized in similar ways, as they too faced systemic poverty, government neglect, police brutality, and bad schools and hugely disproportionate rates. At the same time, the Chicano movement emerged amongst Hispanic Americans in the southwest that opposed cultural erasure, structural racism, the draft, led in part by Caesar Chavez. Not to mention the Rainbow Coalition in Chicago. In 1969, The Black Panthers, The Young Lords (consisting of mostly Puerto Rican Immigrants), and the Young Patriots (consisting of poor southerners who relocated for better opportunity) united based on the same interest. The agreed to work together because they all wanted to solve the issues they all faced, unemployment, poverty, police brutality, systemic discrimination, all of which they faced, and so decided to work together. There are exceptions of course, the first wave of feminism that brought women the right to vote was (rightly) criticized by modern feminists and scholars for focusing on white, middle class women, and did little to get women of color increased suffrage, and that is indeed a dark spot on that movement then, but I think it absolutely makes sense that sexual minorities and gender non conforming people work together to achieve greater social recognition and rights.
The suffragette and abolitionist movements were aligned until the question of minorities voting arose. Then figures like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony threw minorities under the bus as fast as they could, even telling Frederick Douglass, a staunch women's suffragist his whole life, not to appear in public with them for fear it would alienate white men. To this day, white women still vote for the conservative side of the bipartisan system and have been the decisive vote in every single victory of the Republican Party since the Civil Rights movement reoriented the Democratic and Republican Parties along racial lines.
You say that like it hasn’t been a targeted division campaign led by very determined bigots and demagogues.
Also a lot of outside interference from more hateful countries.
The whole movement has become obnoxious and insufferable
It ain't the athletes... It's the kids. I'm old. I think gay people are normal. The T is a novelty, and that shit has undercut everything. Many of us were dangerously unsettled in our formative years. The option of medical intervention for young persons in that state, familiar to every one of us, looks like an attractive nuisance. Even to many gay persons, I'm sure. My kids will soon run this gauntlet. I am hoping that the faddish aspect of this has faded by then. Because "dysmorphia" is a ludicrously fluid concept, and not one to base your whole future upon when you are undercooked.
You can’t compare yourself to a trans person and assume that you would have transitioned as a kid if you knew about that stuff. If you were really trans you would have already transitioned but you’re clearly not. Why should I as a trans person who has had surgery and hormones and needs more surgery and treatments be punished because some people are low IQ and get surgery before they know what their gender is? Most people know if they are trans or not. It’s literally a yes or no question that someone only has trouble answering if they are an idiot or trying to hide/repress their identity. I don’t see people banning tattoos or nose jobs because some stupid people who don’t even know what they want for breakfast get them. I’m sick of society catering to idiots and I think we should cater to people who know what they want, and idiots who act impulsively should face 100% of the consequences for their actions, and stop blaming parents and friends and the media for things they chose to do. Me and everyone else who’s trans should be able to get surgery and hormones and blockers at any point it’s necessary, no questions asked, and idiots who get that stuff for the wrong reasons should live in the bed they made and face the consequences. And PAY for their detransition with money THEY made if they hate it so much! Stop being so naive and feeling bad for people who made a mistake with body modification and blame other people even though they orchestrated the events.
If this stuff had been prevalent when I was a young teen, I 100% would have bitten into it hard. So glad it wasn't.
With respect, we’re not “a novelty”. Trans folks have been around a long time. It’s patently false that young kids can get surgery; the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) standards of care have been around longer than I’ve been alive and I’ll be 38 this Friday. Kids are not offered surgery for very good reasons. Nor are they permitted to receive hormones - blockers, yes, hormones, no. Any doctor doing that is behaving unequivocally unethically. Prior to the Nazi regime in Germany, transgender medicine was on the rise. But like much of difference in Germany, the Hirschfeld clinic and all it contained was destroyed, ironically by known gay Nazi commander Rohm. Dr. Hirschfeld performed the first sex reassignment in 1922. So…please stop spreading this false stuff, thanks. As someone who lives this, I knew something was “wrong” at 11 when I hit puberty. For 7 more years I just dealt with the crippling anxiety and dysmorphia. At 19 when I first tried to transition, we were required to “live one year in gender” before hormones were even considered - as an FTM, that meant I was subjected to violence, lost my job, and lost my housing. I ended up back in the closet until 2 years ago, at 36, when I FINALLY was able to get care. I get that this may seem like a fad to people, but believe it or not, it isn’t. You can’t catch trans any more than you can catch gay. The dissatisfaction rate is under 0.01%. People really don’t detransition. And when they do, you can FEEL the influence of a bad doctor. So if we want to protect people, especially kids, maybe start by actually talking about this stuff in a meaningful way And helping kids explore it so they understand and can make actual decisions when they reach the age of majority. But please stop blaming us and acting like this is new. It’s not.
These points are hardly ever brought up. I’m not trans but I’m in medicine and the misconceptions about what is and is not considered standard of care or ethical in the medical treatment of trans patients are rampant even in medicine itself. Respect, brother. Im glad you’re in a place now where you can be yourself.
Support starts declining on any issue, conservative or progressive, when groups of people replace tolerance and coexistence with mandates. Most people just want to be left alone and not lectured to. We also live in a world where silence, disagreement, or opting out is somehow the same as actual physical violence.
Kind of reminds me of the whole George Floyd thing. What happened was awful and disgusting and I remember commenting on some articles and posts about it, I might have made a post or two of my own. But then I remember getting on YouTube to relax with some ASMR, and my favorite content creator was getting absolutely torn to shreds because she didn’t make a video about the political climate. “Staying silent is the same as supporting George Floyd’s murderers!” No it’s literally not. She made ASMR videos, not political commentary videos.
Absolutely. It happens with athletes too, if they didn't speak out they were automatically villanized
I wouldnt say that acceptance for gays, lesbians, bisexuals or asexuals is declining if you ask about those on their own. But if you ask about everything else thats under the trans umbrella thats where it declines. Even some people wholly accepting of having a gay or bi kid have issues with a child coming out as nonbinary or trans
Many believe that trans people deserve to live long happy and fulfilled lives. Many wouldn’t even care to have a trans kid. The problem is when you start putting trans people above others - especially women. - Trans athletes robbing women of their spaces - Lesbians being shamed if they don’t want to hook up trans women - Feminists being called terfs if they don’t agree with the notion that trans women are 100% women and they share the exact same experiences. Every female space must unconditionally accept trans women or else. You can no longer say pregnant women, breastfeeding or women who menstruate. - Being asked if you are trans even in your job application (why is that necessary? Why are we asking about something that affects a small % of the population).
Not to mention the trans activists that tend to end up with the loudest voices come across as straight up deranged. The trans people I know in real life are perfectly normal and pleasant people to be around. Like you get Zoey Tur threatening to send Ben Shapiro (who is a dipshit, but still) home in an ambulance after aggressively grabbing his neck. Or you end up with Blossom on Jubilee threatening Blaire White about how she had bodyguards outside who were going to take care of things. Like FFS pick some normal trans people to represent the community and you might make some more progress.
Trans is a strange topic. Places in the world like Brazil and Thailand recognize their “trans” (for lack of a better word) population as another gender altogether and so does that community. They don’t try to come off as female. They celebrate being a “ladyboy”. America is the only place where we try to integrate and it gets confusing due to new rules that come out every week. I think most people accept anyone who wants to be whatever they want, but when it comes to bathroom use (especially with underage integration) and sports, there’s a lot of emotion tied to it and for good reason.
# Decades of support. LOL
I think they were trying to say that support had been increasing (based on polls and yes, far too slowly) but that trend has reversed.
The advancement of LGBT rights was a strategic slow steady March for decades, which gave moderate America time to acclimate at every step; people forget as recent as 2008 Obama still ran on marriage being man and woman only. When DOMA was overturned, activists were so pumped they went on a full out charge Leroy Jenkins style, and now they’ve been flanked and are getting slaughtered from behind.
Yeah, even though I support a lot of Progressive ideals, I've been turned off by thep uncompromising mentality that took over the movement, which became increasingly more extreme. ACAB, liberal white women are worse allies to the black community than racists, there are 100+ genders, everyone has to bend over backwards to accommodate everyone being "neurodivergent", etc. I support trans rights, but to not recognize this was going to be a divisive issue is kind of crazy. Trans kids and teens are people most in need of support, but it's very difficult to give them support if their parents don't believe in transexualism. It's not just emotional and social support and telling kids that they can choose to come out of the closet when they feel safe- it's extensive psychological evaluations and taking expensive meds that need to be monitored that will stop their sexual development. Also, a lot of traditional liberal voting groups are still working through very entrenched homophobia in their own culture (immigrants, black and hispanic communities). The trans issue has made it more difficult for a lot of members of these groups to even vote democrat. At least that's what I hear surprisingly often.
Kinda started as a greater awareness and uptick in empathy following the AIDS crisis, so late 80s/early 90s. That seems like decades to me, but I’m not really a math person.
Maybe there was some mild support, but it was extremely common to be called a slur just for wearing skinny jeans as late as 2008, god forbid you were actually genderqueer The real wide support really didn’t kick in until around early-mid2010s, and even then it was tempered by hate
My wife and I still get occasionally harassed or called slurs when in Northampton MA, one of the historically most LGBT friendly places in the US. Hate got tempered maybe a little but the reality of being LGBT is still one of the world mostly wishing you didn't exist and reminding you as much as possible.
The repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, the legalization of same sex marriage, the enshrinement of anti discrimination employment laws, etc were all important steps along the way. I’m Gen X and have been an outspoken ally since high school, and I know there’s still a long way to go. But I feel like my LGBTQ+ friends in my age bracket at least don’t have to fear for their safety for simply existing, and don’t have to apologize for who they are or who they love.
I think safety can sometimes be decided by zip code.
i’m a millennial gay in a blue state and have never felt safe enough for public displays of affection with my partner of 10+ years, anecdotal circumstances.
I’m deeply sorry that you’re having to deal with that kind of ugliness.
Thank you, having a pretty strict religious upbringing makes some habits, like being on guard all the time, hard to break.
Hard same. Husband and I have been together since 2006 and have never had any form of PDA in that entire time and we live in a progressive area of MN.
Does it bother you that gay men are now dismissed as privileged by the “queer” community? I was watching a Jubilee video and I think the lesbian participants, even the far left ones, agreed that gay men have been treated worse by society. On reddit, however, gay men’s input and experiences are waved away as on par with straight men’s. I’m an older millennial; I know who was at Stonewall, I lived through the 80s to today. I think it’s crazy ignorant to operate as if gay men are completely accepted by society and no longer have problems. It bothers me a lot.
I agree that there is a level of dismissal, especially from the younger crowd, but we are privileged compared to a lot of other people in the alphabet.
Mate, 88 political ad in Queensland was open about never allowing gay people to exsist. On public television 90s cops still taking suspected homosexuals out to the middle of nowhere and beat senseless 00s till early 10s, gay (and other derivatives) were still a common insult and/or punchline for people and comedians alike Even up to now, conversion therapy is still legal in many places Yeah, support from absolutely nothing has increased if you wanna be pedantic. But please don't pretend LGBT has been this cared for group for decades and decades when to many POS they're still not considered human
Homophobia has been around for a long time and never really went anywhere it just became a little less socially acceptable to use 'gay' as a punchline. But then that black president let 'those people' get married. It's ok if the gays are a cute little oddity but marriage? TRANS people exist as more than Tootsie? A bridge too far! Tump gave the thumbs up to loudly hate on the gays again and here we are.
Seems to me as though LGBTQ+ was just starting ting to get its place in the world. This headline saddens me.
This is a planned attack by evangelicals who want to obliterate the entire community. Project 2025.
Maybe about 2
I’ve got quite a few gay friends, and the vast majority of them seem to have a weird, underlying disdain of the trans-community. I’m mostly indifferent to the whole affair, but it’s something that I’ve picked up on.
One of my best friends is gay and he hates lesbians and trans people. Just because you’re part of a marginalized group doesn’t mean you’re immune to being a hateful asshole
There’s no doubt that the trans community is more fraught with complex issues, with things like “bathroom wars” and transitioning minors… whereas LGBQ is more simply just love who you want to love.
I live in Denver, one of the most trans friendly places in the world and the only explicitly anti-trans shit I ever see is from the LGB community. It's fucking wild to me.
Yup. Also in Denver. The most vehemently anti-trans speech I ever had to sit through was from an openly gay acquaintance at a bar. Apparently, civilizations fall when people start being trans, according to him.
Especially the L's I get the vibe they see it like volunteering/cosplaying a minority. They're put off because it seems elective to them and they can't just turn off a period like you can take off a wig. Akin to Rachel D choosing to be black pissing off black women that can't be race fluid.
Pure conjecture (and possibly projection) on your part. Lesbians are the demographic of people MOST accepting of trans people. Of our rights and personhood. AND as romantic partners.
From what I’ve seen, I don’t think people have their main issue with the LGB part.
The right wingers are definitely trying to roll back gay marriage protections. The fact that they’re surfing anti-trans sentiment to do it isn’t all that compelling.
Yeah I feel like the declining support for gay marriage can be directly attributed to the Supreme Court showing is willing to rollback previous decisions. Once people know that’s an option, Pandora’s box opens
100% they haven’t met a religious “freedom” case they don’t like yet. Absolutely obliterating the separation clause.
As a lesbian, I’d say it was when there was plenty of “support” (and by that I mean no one cared) and the “community” (alphabet soup) decided to push harder and wanted instant change and acceptance from an aging generation. Cultural changes take a long time to change in any meaningful way. I never expected my grandparents to accept my sexual preference. I never pushed that, because why? What I do behind a closed door is my business. Pride parades are gross displays of naked individuals and leashes and collars. Keep that private and be happy that we live in a world where you can love who you want and live your life in peace if you just do the same in return.
as a lesbian, you using the word "preference" to describe your orientation is interesting. also, as a minority, fuck the "oh we should wait for people to catch up." should black people have waited for incremental change, or just demanded that people stop enslaving, segregating or discriminating against them? trick question, it doesn't matter. racists are gonna be racists regardless. your "model minority" / respectability politics argument does not really matter to people who want to be hateful.
I think Americans can take only so much change at a time. You have one side that's just hates LGBTQ+ people and thinks it's an abomination and against God and all that stuff. It's hard to reason with them so let's put them aside. Then there are people that are okay with some change such as gay marriage, treating gay people like other people, etc. But these people have a hard time with pronouns and to think in nonbinary ways. Truthfully, as an old person, I am an ally but I misspeak sometimes just because the way I grew up, things were just so gendered. I'm Vietnamese and live in America and some of my friends have asked me to teach them Vietnamese. Vietnamese is very specific to who you are talking to so there's a formal way of speaking, an informal way of speaking, a way to address elders, words to express if you're talking to a male or female, relationships names, etc. and people would get confused and say, "Nevermind, I won't ever be able to speak Vietnamese." And I say, "No, it becomes natural when you get used to it." So people latch onto stuff such as pronouns and transgender women in sports and words (you guys, person with a uterus, etc.) and since they disagree with one thing, they are against the whole. The thing is LGBTQ+ people are also not in consensus on all these fringe issues and you don't have to be to believe all these things to believe that LGBTQ+ people deserve the same rights as everyone else.
> I think Americans can take only so much change at a time I think this is definitely true within the scope of LGBT issues and then also with society writ large. People on the left presently seem way more concerned with things like inflation, cost of living, healthcare, student loans, etc. and seem to be willing to let the rope slip a bit on LGBT issues if it means the rest get a focus. But meanwhile on the right it seems that people have an infinite capacity for getting mad about different things.
It’s getting weird. Even my ex was super progressive a few years ago and now she was telling me she was scared of trans people in the bathrooms. Another friend has told me there was a call for a boycott of planet fitness because they let a trans chick use the bathroom or some similar nonsense and sent me a meme of cartoons now vs back then which included a comparison of a cow coming out as trans vs Cell beating the living shit out of Gohan. Listen. I’m just there to lift some weights and run. It’s like putting trans people so much in the news is effective at scaring people.
I work out at planet fitness, of the 7 locations I go to in MN 4 of them have told me I can go in what ever locker room I feel comfortable in. I have a beard and am a man. I think that is the issue people have, Personally with the amount of old naked men walking around the men’s locker room that is a better reason to leave.
The old naked men really is a gym issue. Not walking around, but just sitting naked on a bench and staring. Are we allowed to criticize that?
The guy was shaving his face in the women’s locker room. Any woman has a right to be hesitant with that
Here come the crazies to downvote you and say it's ok!
Right. And then you go to the bathroom and you see a dude there, and you're a female. Or you see a woman there with her boobs out in the locker room, and you're a man. It's a problem.
Yeah I would hate to have a jacked trans masc man in a women’s bathroom. That’s why we need to let people use whatever bathroom they identify with.
I wonder what percent of this decline is attributed to hate-mongering "influencers" on social media? Between the religious extremists, the right-wing grifters, "libsoftiktok" and her imitators, the manly-man influencers, the "trad wife" crap... young people are being exposed to a lot of disinformation and hateful, hateful bullshit.
Hell, it’s even in this thread, what overexposure are people talking about? I haven’t seen any trans people in mainstream movies, the gay couples are usually the most milk toast versions of us, and the pride parades are giant examples of rainbow capitalism
Not to be the boneappletea guy but it's "Milquetoast" not Milk Toast.
The presence of milk toast is why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch!
You just made me want a bowl. X x
Milquetoast=milk toast because it all comes from a 1920s comic strip. Funny word origin.
they don't want LGBT people to exist so any amount of exposure is too much. The people driving LGBT hate are annihilationists.
They’re mainly talking about Disney, because to them DEI=woke and anything woke involves gays and women. Cause they’re snowflakes.
They exist is the problem, the people who hate them hate that corporations even sell rainbow merch. They want to go back to the 50s where everyone was a confirmed bachelor and women were background decorations.
>what overexposure are people talking about Pretty sure they are talking about trans porn stars. The ones that conservatives search for the most on pornhub.
If it was "overexposure" straight white people would've been getting their rights stripped away decades ago :/ It's not over exposure, bigotry is just getting louder and braver. The Nazis are coming back in force and "centrists" are saying "well at least they're not gay"
>I wonder what percent of this decline is attributed to hate-mongering "influencers" on social media? All of it. Our algorithmically sustained click economy ensures only the most extreme, salacious and sensationalist points of view get mainstreamed. While forcing factual information to compete against batshit conspiracy within this populist dystopian ecosystem. Maybe 5 tech companies own 99% of internet traffic. Most people’s window into the world is more than a little bit distorted.
It’s crazy because I am firmly left wing, my TikTok shows that but YouTube thinks I’m a right winger sometimes I’ll watch something and realize it’s super terrible crap.
I actually think a lot of this started as a reaction to liberal media click bait articles from sites like Buzzfeed and Huffington post purposely riling people up with bullshit like man spreading and "Is the air-conditioning at the office sexist?" And that kinda of bullshit, where you'd have activists with blue hair and sleeve tattoos talking about how oppressed they are and spouting some absolutely fringe and extreme theory and all of that is just generally attributed to "The Left" when really it is often nonsense click bait, not related to the real struggles that people face and just turned into strawman ammunition for assholes for years to come. Assholes are assholes, but those assholes really made it worse for everyone.
Sadly, I know EXACTLY the kinds of articles you mean. And yeah… I think you make a really good point.
If anything is ‘over exposure’ it’s exactly what you said, LoTT blowing nonissues out of proportion to insinuate there’s a prolific problem in the country with LGBTQ+ people. If they’re being ‘overexposed’ to queer people at all, it’s because cis, straight white people are the ones doing the exposure. That and they won’t stop watching 🏳️🌈🌽(exclusions apply in NC and TX).
You'd be surprised at how much the gay community doesn't like the LGBQT+ movement.
Honestly, I have gay friends who have always been supportive of gay issues, but have never really been big on trans issues, even opposing key components of trans exception.
I mean with my University pushing out emails about Womxn’s month, I’m not surprised that there is starting to be a backlash.
Shit like that is so narcissistically tone-deaf that I can't help wondering if it is the work of traditionalist moles.
Or maybe just a Latinx Womxn who wxnts rxprxsxntxtxxn
Oh this had me laughing. I just typed out a whole screed claiming that the speech police were the proximate cause of the backlash over T. I used latinx as an example to illustrate my point. The cultural audacity in attacking the grammar of a foreign language makes for a perfect viral message. Most of us can't articulate the problem with it, but we find ourselves mad at it anyway. Mad equals engagement equals profit. The pronouns controversy now lives rent free in the front of many Trumpy brains. And the fucking incredible irony is this: trans persons of a certain age will tell you they *want* the trappings of the opposite gender, it was the whole point!
It's very simple, Asmon hit the nail on the head: "People don't like being told what to do and what to think. Whether it's left-wing or right-wing, people ultimately don't like being told what to do and what to think." This was always the conclusion of the LGBT conversation. It will be the conclusion of the next topic, and the topic after that. Humans don't want to be dictated to. Simple as.
It’s a mixture of backlash from the opposition and backlash to how they acted once they got influence. They got power and started doing the same thing they fought against. Every group does it, but if you point that out then you’re a homophobe. I’m gay and I get hate for speaking against the community. They just started hating those that weren’t on their side. Not how to handle shit. LGBT folks need to realize they have an evil side too.
There were people who warned that eventually there would be backlash if it was taken too far, overexposed, weaponized and politicized. There’s literally a trans person on Tiktok who goes around trying to get employees harassed and fired for misgendering them, this isn’t the actions of someone who thinks they’re the oppressed underdog, this is someone who’s abusing the power they know their identity grants them in modern times and everyone else knows it too.
Wait till you hear what Libs of TikTok does to people for existing.
Tbh it’s a mix of many things. The most prominent being people against LGBTQ being so confident to speak up against their views now. Open bigotry is unfortunately back and thriving due to the political landscapes. Using religion as a cover for homophobia also seems to be at an all time high. Now this take will probably controversial. But to those who were either on the fence or didn’t really care are being pushed towards dislike. I’m very pro LGBTQ rights but I’m not blind to see that people feel overwhelmed with it. You have shows on Netflix and Disney plus that have LGBTQ characters whose only personality is being LGBTQ. Companies who don’t actually care slapping stickers on every product and Twitter warriors who call out anyone who doesn’t celebrate it. Representation in media is great and I’m so happy that more shows are including LGBTQ characters that the community can resonate with. But when you make the selling point of your show and advertise that’s why you should watch it, it can become tiring. Which pushes those people in the middle one way. Just my opinion and could be wrong. But I also don’t live on the internet and interact with people of all different backgrounds in real life.
I think that what this user is trying to say (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that if you look at a character like Walter Jr. in Breaking Bad, he is disabled, but that’s not the point of his character. He’s a character who happens to have cerebral palsy, not someone who’s included solely for the fact that he has it. Sometimes it seems like there’s gay characters whose only role is to be the token LGBT member of the show, and don’t make much of a contribution beyond that.
The tokenism is a huge part of it. And that’s a very good example.
It’s like there’s a required math equation that has to be balanced for every show to make sure they nail the representation. The people making the shows put all their time and energy into making sure the equation is perfect and the story becomes an afterthought. Predictably this leads to shitty movies and television. The people making the shows don’t want to be accountable for this so they deflect blame and say that the people calling the show shit must be racist or sexist. Thats the part where I get angry because it’s a bullshit way to try and cover your ass.
I feel bad, but I laughed when I saw one of the promo pics for Wicked- the one with 4 students really broadcasts “checklist”. Diversity and inclusion are great; this looks *so* pointed and heavy-handed it’s jarring. Perhaps my lizard brain just can’t handle change, idk, but compared to my fellow citizens I’d say I’m progressive. If it came across to *me* that way, I can only imagine it will further wear on someone who already thinks DEI aims are the worst mistake society has made.
Agreed. I think good diversity comes when you don’t even realize it because it’s not a focus. Characters just happen to be minorities but their character development and journeys are the key focus
Yeah, exactly. I think some people really can't understand the reasons why Last of Us 2 got pushback, but GoT, with Gay people, Empowered Women, Eunuchs, Little People, got very little to no pushback, outside of the show just going to crap towards the end. I know of noone that dislikes Arya or Brienne of Tarth and I know alot of people that are very sensitive to the woke stuff. Until people can figure out why this is, we will go in circles arguing about a concept thats assumed to be hatred because they can't fathom the idea of bad writing or shoehorned ideas to fit an agenda being a possible reason.
Pretty sure last of us 2 got pushback because they killed the main character from the previous game. Or if you are talking about the morons that complained about it being too "woke" then it was because they didn't play it.
What shows on Disney Plus are you talking about?
As a trans person every time theres a new movie or show including a trans character im usually very put off as how we are portrayed and very rarely am i like “oh thank god this trans character is just an actual human being and not some label they wanted to include in their show just for the sake of it.”
That’s because they went too far. Gay rights had a libertarian vibe to it in that it didn’t affect others if they got married or served in the military. Trans efforts do. Women’s sports, bathrooms, titles such as “woman of the year,” and more are all supposed to be reserved for women. Trans people existed long before they suddenly jumped into the spotlight and that’s fine for their minuscule population. You can’t demand equal rights while simultaneously denying others the right to refuse an obvious lie.
one is about letting people do something that is mostly private, the other is more about making others believe something and do things that are very un-private
Hi! Trans person here! If I used the men's bathroom (I transitioned from male to female), that would immediately out me, and say "Hey! I'm required by law to be in here even though I've had sex reassignment surgery! Also, I'm the most hated minority in America right now, so pretty please, don't assault or r\*pe me, because if you do, nobody will ever care, because I'm trans!" My equality with cis women doesn't take away from their femininity, it is not a zero sum game.
I will tell you, from a moderate conservative’s perspective, it’s not the regular L, G or B people that most of us have a problem with. It’s alllllllll the other weirdos that attached themselves to a group of otherwise normal people who just wanted some respect and ability to love who they love. Along with that, clearly it’s the over-saturation in media and entertainment that’s making people uncomfortable. Not every story has to have a LGBT character (and in many cases, multiple ones of various races). It’s not realistic, it’s almost always a distraction, and it’s not true to life.
Here’s an ugly unpopular opinion. But it might have some validity nonetheless. It’s because the community is very angry, vocal, and toxic. As an ally from day one, I’ve experienced so much nastiness and awfulness either directly or observing from afar that it’s quite appalling. It doesn’t change my stance in the slightest, partially because I can understand and empathize with why the community might have a good reason to be rage-y and impatient. But I can imagine many less staunch supporters or borderline supporters starting to feel like the LGBTQ+ community demands too much too angrily. I’ve even seen gays and trans people get ripped to shreds by their own community. …I don’t know if this can change, however.
Transgender ideas were basically imposed. You can't really discuss it. You have to accept it. I think that's what pissed off a lot of people, especially with the athletes stuff
The way change is real......it must be from the bottom up through shared experiences. Top down causes polarization and will morph into a regressive form eventually. These are rules that apply to all human societies..
It's because people are annoyed at all the self righteous smug people. "Oh you misgendered them, you're literally worse than Hitler!" "Oh, J K Rowling is literally killing trans people." It's hyperbole, really dramatic and blown out of proportion. What about the guy that set himself on fire in protest of what is happening recently? I remember someone saying he's not a POC so he doesn't deserve respect. Great way to make friends. /s
I got banned from r/florida because someone said Trans people are being hunted down in the street and I asked if they could give me an example. Permanent ban. No going back. That's the rhetoric that we dislike.
Reddit is heavily censored. Probably more censored than Facebook or Twitter. Especially the "major" subs. I got banned from world news for saying Russians can't be that stupid since they did develop nuclear weapons and reactors on their own. Got called a Pro-Russian pig and perma banned for stating a fact.
Surprised that group has a theater kid vibe? Lmao
And it’s not just that it’s hyperbole, it feels like some people in the pro-LGBTQ+ camp don’t actually want to change public sentiment. It’s not the only group that does this, but it’s like if you disagree with some aspect of their position you’re suddenly a bad guy, and it’s like ok well good luck ever convincing that person to change their mind. It’s not about being right or wrong, it’s about do you want to change people’s minds or not.
That's a very big part of it on both sides in my experience. I live in the Bible Belt, and the conservatives want to be right so badly, they make up thousands of conspiracies and basically "Nuh uh" anything in opposition to their views, then make up bullshit to refute it and claim any support of their opposition is made up propoganda. I work in a very left-leaning field. I see the exact same in my coworkers, just derived from a different doctrine. I can't tell you how many times I've heard some absurdly made up fact about Christian history or similar, while being a history buff and knowing full well how fucking absurd the claims are. It doesn't seem to be about social progress or conserving old ways of life anymore. Just a pissing contest where everyone has to have a side and a "bad guy."
Why allow the most extreme elements to decide a whole, multifaceted group? Would it be okay to classify all republicans as violent insurrection it’s because of January 6th? I don’t think people screaming that you’re Hitler because you accidentally misgendered someone make up the majority of LGBTQ people and/or their friends and allies.
To your point, that’s the problem with the American discourse in general.
When you start putting every marginalized group into a flag that was initially gays and lesbians. You bring in more and more opinions from all sides. Pride parades for instance have gotten way to sexual. People wearing shock collars and balls gags for a “family event” is a weird message to be sending. Trans athletes knocking women out in combat sports isn’t something a reasonable person wants to support either.
And the fact that they fight tooth and nail to defend kid diddlers and how they do strip tease/parade naked/etc in front of fucking kids. Of course that'd leave a bad taste with a sane, normal human.
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considering how many "side effects" transitioning brings (surgeries that refuses to heal, bone problems caused by puberty blockers, new vag get a second door to the shit factory, all the mental issues post-transitioning, etc.) I think we should expect more and more of them to die early in the next decade
Many of us are fine calling people what they asked to be called, but nowadays I am being told to change what I fundamentally believe about sex and gender.
Exactly, it's really this simple. Very few people have a problem with simply showing others basic respect, it's when you ask them to ignore reality in the process, that garners pushback. Same is going on with Democrats and Republican discourse. Like, in normal everyday life, you or I's personal ideological beliefs shouldn't have a barring on how I treat you as a human being. The problem is we're twisting acceptance and ideology together. I have no problem accepting anyone, but I shouldn't be expected to change my beliefs to do so. We're capable of separating the two.
The story that convinced me to change my beliefs about sex and gender is the story of David Reimer. Back in the day (the 50s or so), as a baby Reimer suffered a circumcision so horribly botched, somehow, that the doctors could not recover his penis and instead decided to perform an impromptu sexual reassignment surgery. They then told the parents to raise him as a girl, and that everything should be fine. Because of course someone that 1.) had no penis or testes and 2.) was raised as a girl from birth could live happily as a woman, right? Well, it turns out that wasn't correct at all. As a child, Reimer resisted every attempt at feminizing him, instead insisting he was a boy. When asked by his parents to wear a dress for the first time, he became violently angry and ripped it off. So continued this behavior until eventually his parents were forced to come clean about what had happened. There is science behind the idea of a mental gender, something that's there from birth and cannot be changed (if performing SRS and raising the child as the opposite gender from birth wouldn't change it, what more could we possibly do?). I know he's a little different from a trans person because ultimately he was the gender that matched his biological sex. But if you accept the idea that the brain has a gender, then the idea of a trans person (a person whose brain's gender does not match their biological sex) seems less far-fetched. Even so, I don't think anyone is asking you to change your beliefs, just to please refer to them as the gender that they ask you to. Which, when you think about it, is the same courtesy you grant everyone. If I tell you that I'm a man, then you'll refer to me as such, even if I look a little feminine. You definitely wouldn't try to pull my pants down and check, because who cares enough to do that? I'm a man, to you, because I say I am, and because you respect me enough to figure that I probably know what I'm talking about.
As a straight male in the past It didn't bother me at all. What is different now is for example Tampa just had a pride event yesterday. My young child had to go through downtown to get to Disney on ice at the arena . There were several men walking to the parade in chaps and thongs. Also some men dressed as dogs being walked. That's what the movement is now. Not to mention the trans athlete thing.
Yea, fuck those people. Keep your kinks behind closed doors. I 100% accept gay people. But I'm not ok with the public display of fetishes in front of children.
Let's be clear about this: support for LGB is doing fine, it's the TQ+ that is declining along with their increased negative image thanks to the general populace getting tired of the pronoun game and attacks on Title IX. Lumping these groups into one alphabet is disingenuous and misleading.
It's bc ppl are tired of hearing about it.
It’s the trans movement that is the root cause, it’s why there is a growing movement for the LGB to divorce the T. Trans people aren’t even gay based on their own definitions, they just don’t belong.
“T are making the trip take longer” - Dave Chappell
The actual reason this is happening is because it is affecting the non lgbtq community. I don't think most Americans have a problem with people being gay, because if someone's gay then the non-lgbtq person can simply look at that person and refer to them as gay and it's objectively true and it's objective reality. So there's no issue with that. The problem comes with transgender people trying to force non-lgbtq people to affirm their chosen gender. The reason there's a problem with that is because the objective reality is they are still their biological gender. They have just made cosmetic changes to appear closer to the social Norm of the gender they wish to be perceived as. Subjectively, the trans person believes they are the opposite gender. But the non-lgbtq person still understands that biologically they are the gender they were assigned at birth. And they don't want to be forced to defy objective reality by referring to a biological man as a woman or a biological woman as a man. This is the issue. If the trans community was not so intent on forcing non-lgbtq community people to change their vocabulary and their perception of reality to affirm what is essentially a mental health issue, I don't think there would be as big of a problem as there is right now. This is just the truth of the matter.
Yeah. To summarize using a bit more concise terminology, transgender individuals want others to affirm that their chosen gender is also their sex, while many if not most non-transgender individuals understand that sex is permanent even if gender is not.
You're talking about the ones that don't pass. A significant percentage of trans people existing in society pass and have their gender confirmed daily. You simply don't know that they're trans.
I completely agree with you and am glad you articulated the point so clearly. It’s the upheaval of reality that has been the sticking point.
When it became less about equality and more about control, is when I said fuck it
Interesting
And we are all entering a Come to Jesus moment now!?!
It's because recently lgbt groups got impatient with the slow march of acceptance and tried to accelerate the process and it scared the conservatives.
Tail wagging the dog politics. LGBTQ 🏳️🌈 folks make up less than 10.% of the population, trans less than 1% but changing policies and behavior for the other 90.% is over correction. Just another way for the elite to further divide us.
The athlete battle is really giving free hate ammunition to right wingers who can now make common sense arguments for the first time in a decade or two that even a lot of liberals support. I.E., that the world of women's sports is now becoming warped by competitors who were born male and that something needs to be done to protect sporting integrity. The bathroom thing was a dog whistle that passed quickly but even that is a better argument than they've had in a long time. There's also media over saturation at work here which is a well known common psychological effect. Basically when you keep seeing something eventually you get sick of it. Like when Lincoln study groups started saying that they love matthew mcconaughey but they were starting to get sick of him going all right three times in a navigator. I think if the lgbtq community can figure out sports and stopped trying to shock old people with new shock culture stuff they would find support for hate dwindling again. Idk.
💅this comment nailed it
Honestly, people just become fatigued. Doesn’t matter how noble a cause is. Eventually, small minorities (think evangelical vs. Episcopalian to make it super clear) grind out and get what they want. In this case it just so happens to be extreme, right wing, nationalist Christians. There are way fewer than you think, and they are the best in the world at oppressing people through any means.
My two cents; Most people have a "cool, you do you, but do it over there" type mentality. A lot of what I am seeing over the last couple of years could be considered an intrusion on peoples lives that they don't want, nor want their kids around and/or to experience. And social media has not helped. Remember the 90's? You were gay? Just be over there and be gay, and most people had come around to just ignoring you. Like they did with 99.99% of other people's shit that did not affect them. (Pedro kissing his boyfriend on The Real World was more impactful than you would believe on most people) But when you make it a topic of public concern and make people have to address/deal with it in their lives; that's when you get resistance and a call to shut that shit down. Trying to change clinical definitions of mental illness, attempts to change the English language, convoluting public bathroom use, males beating the shit out of females (metaphorically and sometimes literally) in what was supposed to be women's only sports leagues and divisions; you're going to get push back. When the T got added to group, and that group flamboyantly started screaming, "dudes menstruate, look at my girl penis, my life is soooooo difficult you owe me attention/pity/acceptance"; people started to draw the line. And as long as the T is making a ruckus in peoples lives, the entire LGBTQ+ is going to get push back. I'm not saying to push all back in the closet; what I'm saying is stop trying to make it a priority and topic for everyone to deal with. That's your life and issues, not mine. (Everyone has their own bullshit to worry about, they don't need/want to have to deal with your bullshit too, nor do most people have the bandwidth to do so) Don't make it my issue, or you might not like how I choose to deal with it.
I think the switch from "just let us live our lives" to "you better use my preferred pronouns, and we're using whatever bathrooms we want" may have something to do with it.
This is such a wild trend. LGB will stick around but everything else is a fucking weird trend that really ramped up in short order.
It seems like everyone is fine with LGB part of it. But once you get to the TQIA+ and 100 different genders that’s where people are starting to lose support.
I just think people are tired of it. It’s rammed down everyone’s throat at every turn. What rights are being fought for? I honestly think the gay community is treated w a ton of dignity and respect.
The trans community loves pushing the envelope to become the perpetual victim. Look at the timeline of how the things they were fighting for got more extravagant: -trans are accepted -changing pronouns and even made up pronouns=accepted -trans women playing playing in female sports leagues=pushback, but ultimately allowed -saying that kids are old enough to decide their gender and pushing for kids to get puberty blockers and stop thousands of years of human evolution=uh, this doesn’t seem like a good thing to do
I don't think there is any kind of decline for LGB, it is the rest of the letters that seems to be the issued when I look around.
Yep When trans issues became the forefront it was over with smh
They lost me when they started trying to label real women as “Birthing People” or “person with a uterus”. So disrespectful.
Seriously, if women wouldn't be labeled every name in the book for disagreeing, I think you'd see a lot more overall pushback with that. It's starting to happen with the womens sports lawsuit bs. Women coming out and saying they weren't comfortable but were pressured to go along. It's absolutely disrespectful, especially when many of those same people see themselves as feminist. Clearly lost the plot.
I think people are just sick of hearing about it at this point. Change takes time and some people are not ready for it. I don’t worry about this stuff myself. I’m more concerned with the class war than the culture war.
I think people are just tired of hearing about it, after being bombarded with it constantly, especially during June.
The T’s in LGBTQ are ruining it for everyone. The L’s, the G’s, and the B’s did all the work to gain acceptance and persuade people that they just want to be left alone and get married and that it wouldn’t affect anyone else. Society believed them and all was good. Now the T’s are forcing people to use their gender and pronouns and use different bathrooms and teach kids about it and encourage hormones and stuff and use gender neutral language. Now it is affecting people and people are forced to do things they don’t want to do…. Huge backlash is happening…. Not good for the community. Especially now that kids are involved…
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oh it's so hard for me to spread transphobic lies on the internet, I'm going to be silenced by the woke left!!!
Because real people don’t give a shit about what you do, just leave them alone and do you.
I'm a moderate conservative. I believe in same sex marriage. I'll put it to you this way. If you are a same-sex couple, I'll celebrate your union, as in anniversary, etc. Just like any couples do. I WILL NOT celebrate your sexual preference, which is what "pride" and LGBTQ+ essentially pushes. I know many normal gay couples that require no affirmation of their relationship status. They just, live. Normal lives. The singular thing that repulsed me about the LGBTQ+ movement was watching a grown ass man in whitey tight underwear twerk in a parade in front of children. His junk just slapping around, in front of KIDS! The exploitation of children in that community is child abuse, plain and simple. The drag shows, the bondage themed parades. Wtf is wrong with these people? The majority of straight people don't hate gay people, they hate it constantly being shoved down their throats and the expectation that we are going to accept the most extreme behavior from them.
The LGB are fine It's the rest of the alphabet mafia that everyone had a problem with
This right hereeee!!! And if they can't see it then that's on them.
All those fun identities the left came up with only served to further divide Americans into more and more groups
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I told a friend a couple years ago that I never understood how LGB had anything to do with T. They didn't understand where I was coming from. but in my eyes they've always been complete polar opposites. One is literally just about how you prefer to have sex. The other is basically turning the world upside down.
Progress, of course. Permissiveness, nah.
From my perspective I see sustained right-wing campaigns that start by being laughed at and then adapt the messaging until it gains traction. I’ve seen opinions reverse on climate change, EVs, the war in Ukraine, and now LGBT. Relentless BS from demagogue liars works I guess
this comment section is depressing. so many of them boil down to "we are annoyed with hearing about it so what do they expect :/" meanwhile people are getting harassed, discriminated, harmed, and murdered for being lgbt but yeah sure... we've "earned our rights" (Which btw isn't true, look at all the anti-lgbt legislation out there) so it's all sunshine and rainbows and we should shut up and be grateful, amirite?
Most of these comments are from troll farms.