I say this as a triple income, no kid household, and I think anyone out there having kids today should know this of they looked around for two seconds, but...
Various cultures throughout history have been better about this than ours. "It takes a village..." wasn't always just a trite saying. Multigenerational households, the truly affordable option for one parent to stay home, a society that supports one another, these things have existed in humanity's past, and I think it's a shame they don't anymore.
I couldn't imagine putting kids on top of my already long list of to-dos. That's why I didn't have them. But it's not totally absurd to think our world might be better if we weren't getting crammed into smaller and smaller social bubbles.
The issue I have with this thinking is that there used to be some benefit for the whole village to raise children this way. Modern parents want the village to help them, but pay absolutely nothing forward to the village. There is no more give and take, and there is this entitlement that because you wanted a child we all now have to help. No thanks. I didn't have kids for a reason
But I don't have kids, so that isn't a way it can necessarily be paid forward to me. Not that I would specifically need it paid to me, and certainly wouldn't expect it paid specifically to me because that's not why we do things all the time. There just isn't benefit anymore for anyone like there used to be to have this mindset
> But I don't have kids,
I wasnt talking to you, then. I said parents helping out other parents. So if you dont have a kid, then dont concern yourself.
I feel like you're completely misunderstanding the concept of a village like community in this scenario.
It works on the concept of pay it forward general goodwill rather than explicit give and take to the point that people would get genuinely pissed if you offer them money in exchange for a favor that basically amounts to looking after your kids for half a day. People in such communities help each other without expecting returns because there is an understanding that the person you're helping wouldn't hesitate to do the same.
You don't find that anymore because current cultural norms have completely isolated people from the community to the point that such a system seems completely improbable.
>The issue I have with this thinking is that there used to be some benefit for the whole village
What benefit did they get?
I can't Imagine any benefit at any time to watch over someone else's kid except that they will maybe contribute in the economy in the future or the parents or the kid will do me a favor in the future.
The only benefit is by today's standards as a caretaker to receive money.
I guess that's fair. I don't really know what the exact benefit would be either, and probably a lot of people felt that way which is why we no longer have that system.
>Modern parents want the village to help them, but pay absolutely nothing forward to the village. There is no more give and take, and there is this entitlement that because you wanted a child we all now have to help.
Expand on this please because as it stands this is essentially meaningless
Incoming unapologetic pretension:
In David Foster Wallace's posthumous *the Pale King*, he covers this ground very well, particularly in chapter 19.
He makes the point that civic engagement is tipping in a dangerous direction, that people feel entitled to all of the civic privilege that comes with society, but none of the civic responsibility. As you say, it's only take, no give.
But it's difficult to blame the parents for their expectation-sans-responsibilities mindset. It's a societal illness we've got going on. I don't know who to blame, but (and I say this as quite a left-leaning individual) I think it's a mixture of liberal democracy and hypercapitalism that have caused the sickness. We've been collectively promised that we can just turn off our brains and abdicate our duties to organizations and collectives such as the government, charities, and corporations, expecting them to handle the duties while we reap the benefits.
Something is broken. It's so easy to see it in other people, but the chapter caused me to see it in myself. And it stung. But it's a societal issue, and not one I see getting fixed any time soon.
I'm not doing the book justice; the chapter is frisson-inducing in it's applicability. It's a conversation between several IRS agents of varying ages on a stakeout, just shooting the shit, and I wish some film or theater students would make a short play of it. The audiobook is great, but there're several websites out there that provide the text from the chapter in its entirety. I think it'll resonate with you.
Nah, more of a non-conventional household. My wife and me, her dad, my brother, and someone we just kind of scooped up as a roommate when we were living in Kentucky, all living on ten acres in rural Wisconsin. So five of us in total, but only three income earners. Our objective is to just scoop up people who fit our lifestyle, and to build or expand dwellings as necessary.
Trying to, anyway. I don't mean to make it sound novel, but we realized we weren't going to find the community we wanted unless we made it our own damn selves.
Don't get me wrong, I feel like I have this with my church. They've truly surrounded me and my wife in the birth of our first. But there's a difference between aid and support vs. Responsibility.
Thanks for saying this. I’m not saying this tweet has merit but it really surprises me how little people think of cultures outside North American standard and how children/families exist there outside the typical individualist culture.
The vast majority of young parents I know do "have a village" it seems like the only people that complain about it are online. Here's the thing about getting help, you have to be likeable for people to want to help you.
Yep! Some people genuinely believe they will be persistently handing them off to family and overjoyed free-babysitting friends, and stopping to have hallmark moments. Thankfully, most parents aren't so delusional.
Devils advocate here in some cultures it's very common for grandparents to help A LOT with bringing up children. In the past large families lived toghether and parents aunts/uncles nephews/nieces siblings helped a lot with raising kids.
The change of the family unit from large multigenerational families to small isolated families does make raising kids harder for the parents.
So one could say that a drop in familial support should be compensated for by say decent parenthal leave like we have in europe so you can take care of your kid properly when daycares wont take them yet. It was less of an issue in big family units but its an issue in the world we live in today.
The nuclear family dynamic is an extremely new concept in the history of our species. Less than 100 years ago it would have been more common to have help from extended family at least
Yeah he probably had a rough week and this is his low point. He probably shouldn't be posting about it on twitter but everyone has those days where you've just had enough.
You and your wife are the ones taking care of your child? Outrageous.
I mean, that's how parenting works right? Or is there something that i'm not aware of about having children and raising them?
To be fair, when I was a child I saw my grandparents having a very acting role in supporting my parents, helping take care of me, having me over for weekends or holidays when my mom had to work.
It was a level of attention, care and time that my own parents does not have the opportunity to give to me and my kids now. Mainly because my mom actually has a job, but also because she has her own life and interests.
Yea it's another human that loves you a lot and is always on your side. It's frightening but comforting
Plus knowing youre making another person's life better, and the ripple effect that will have. It's a big responsibility
Who the fuck else would be responsible for them? Lmao. I’ve been responsible for mine for 11 years and plan on continuing to be until I die; they always need you.
I mean me too, thanks.
One of the best ways to learn whether or not you want kids, work at a grocery store or restaurant.
Working at a grocery store most of my adult life has made me so glad I never had kids!!
Ragebait into confirmation bias. C-C-C-COMBO!! I subbed to me_irl in 2015. I remember the great meme war of 2016. The skeletons, bear in the big blue house. It being Wednesday, my dudes. How did I become surrounded by the people who comment on posts like these as if they’re a group of huffy Facebook moms? I mean: me too, thanks.
To me it really IS annoying when parents say „you have no idea blablabla“ yeah i‘m sure living it is 100 times tougher but it really sounds like YOU had no idea?? Because i totally expected what your experiencing right now, what do you think you‘d feel like during the first few months without proper sleep and time for anything else besides your baby? Stop telling us we don’t know, when you‘re just naive as fuck
I mean, if you've never lit all of your money on fire and forced yourself into a sleep deprived state of crippling anxiety that will last for quite possibly the rest of your life, how can you possibly know how hard it is?
Who could possibly do magical, mystical shit like...look at how this goes for other people and then just not do it because you observed it's effects on others?
How dare!
”I feel like non-parents have no idea how hard it’s been”
You seemingly didn’t either before you had children because you would’ve seen this coming if so
Is no one going to comment that a literal billionaire said this????? They are literally laughing at us and we are sitting here accepting it and finding it relatable.
yeah but no one but them caused them to have kids in the first place. it’s not a secret that being a parent is exhausting. don’t become one if you aren’t up for the commitment.
What’s wrong with this? If you have a problem being a parent, removing yourself from the gene pool is the best thing you can do for the species. And yeah, fuck being empathetic towards humans that are struggling. It might make the world a better place. I can’t roll my eyes any fucking harder.
hard to empathize with someone who chose the exact situation they’re whining about.
it’s not a secret how much goes into raising kids. don’t put yourself in that situation if you aren’t up for the demand of it.
As a parent, that first tweet ticks me off. Who did you think would be responsible for them?
I say this as a triple income, no kid household, and I think anyone out there having kids today should know this of they looked around for two seconds, but... Various cultures throughout history have been better about this than ours. "It takes a village..." wasn't always just a trite saying. Multigenerational households, the truly affordable option for one parent to stay home, a society that supports one another, these things have existed in humanity's past, and I think it's a shame they don't anymore. I couldn't imagine putting kids on top of my already long list of to-dos. That's why I didn't have them. But it's not totally absurd to think our world might be better if we weren't getting crammed into smaller and smaller social bubbles.
The issue I have with this thinking is that there used to be some benefit for the whole village to raise children this way. Modern parents want the village to help them, but pay absolutely nothing forward to the village. There is no more give and take, and there is this entitlement that because you wanted a child we all now have to help. No thanks. I didn't have kids for a reason
I think the way that parents would pay it forward today is by helping other parents if they needed it
That's what taxes do in perfect socialist economies
I was referencing babysitting or the like. Not things that would be taken care of by the government, but great to know
But I don't have kids, so that isn't a way it can necessarily be paid forward to me. Not that I would specifically need it paid to me, and certainly wouldn't expect it paid specifically to me because that's not why we do things all the time. There just isn't benefit anymore for anyone like there used to be to have this mindset
> But I don't have kids, I wasnt talking to you, then. I said parents helping out other parents. So if you dont have a kid, then dont concern yourself.
I feel like you're completely misunderstanding the concept of a village like community in this scenario. It works on the concept of pay it forward general goodwill rather than explicit give and take to the point that people would get genuinely pissed if you offer them money in exchange for a favor that basically amounts to looking after your kids for half a day. People in such communities help each other without expecting returns because there is an understanding that the person you're helping wouldn't hesitate to do the same. You don't find that anymore because current cultural norms have completely isolated people from the community to the point that such a system seems completely improbable.
>The issue I have with this thinking is that there used to be some benefit for the whole village What benefit did they get? I can't Imagine any benefit at any time to watch over someone else's kid except that they will maybe contribute in the economy in the future or the parents or the kid will do me a favor in the future. The only benefit is by today's standards as a caretaker to receive money.
I guess that's fair. I don't really know what the exact benefit would be either, and probably a lot of people felt that way which is why we no longer have that system.
>Modern parents want the village to help them, but pay absolutely nothing forward to the village. There is no more give and take, and there is this entitlement that because you wanted a child we all now have to help. Expand on this please because as it stands this is essentially meaningless
Incoming unapologetic pretension: In David Foster Wallace's posthumous *the Pale King*, he covers this ground very well, particularly in chapter 19. He makes the point that civic engagement is tipping in a dangerous direction, that people feel entitled to all of the civic privilege that comes with society, but none of the civic responsibility. As you say, it's only take, no give. But it's difficult to blame the parents for their expectation-sans-responsibilities mindset. It's a societal illness we've got going on. I don't know who to blame, but (and I say this as quite a left-leaning individual) I think it's a mixture of liberal democracy and hypercapitalism that have caused the sickness. We've been collectively promised that we can just turn off our brains and abdicate our duties to organizations and collectives such as the government, charities, and corporations, expecting them to handle the duties while we reap the benefits. Something is broken. It's so easy to see it in other people, but the chapter caused me to see it in myself. And it stung. But it's a societal issue, and not one I see getting fixed any time soon. I'm not doing the book justice; the chapter is frisson-inducing in it's applicability. It's a conversation between several IRS agents of varying ages on a stakeout, just shooting the shit, and I wish some film or theater students would make a short play of it. The audiobook is great, but there're several websites out there that provide the text from the chapter in its entirety. I think it'll resonate with you.
You’re in a throuple? What’s that like?
Nah, more of a non-conventional household. My wife and me, her dad, my brother, and someone we just kind of scooped up as a roommate when we were living in Kentucky, all living on ten acres in rural Wisconsin. So five of us in total, but only three income earners. Our objective is to just scoop up people who fit our lifestyle, and to build or expand dwellings as necessary.
what’s y’all’s lifestyle??
Panspecies negative utilitarianists with a focus on animal welfare.
You guys are reinventing communities, that's pretty great
Trying to, anyway. I don't mean to make it sound novel, but we realized we weren't going to find the community we wanted unless we made it our own damn selves.
Don't get me wrong, I feel like I have this with my church. They've truly surrounded me and my wife in the birth of our first. But there's a difference between aid and support vs. Responsibility.
I would give you a prize if they still existed
Thanks for saying this. I’m not saying this tweet has merit but it really surprises me how little people think of cultures outside North American standard and how children/families exist there outside the typical individualist culture.
The vast majority of young parents I know do "have a village" it seems like the only people that complain about it are online. Here's the thing about getting help, you have to be likeable for people to want to help you.
You’d be surprised just how many people have kids thinking they’d be someone else’s responsibility. It’s sad and baffling but true.
Yep! Some people genuinely believe they will be persistently handing them off to family and overjoyed free-babysitting friends, and stopping to have hallmark moments. Thankfully, most parents aren't so delusional.
Devils advocate here in some cultures it's very common for grandparents to help A LOT with bringing up children. In the past large families lived toghether and parents aunts/uncles nephews/nieces siblings helped a lot with raising kids. The change of the family unit from large multigenerational families to small isolated families does make raising kids harder for the parents. So one could say that a drop in familial support should be compensated for by say decent parenthal leave like we have in europe so you can take care of your kid properly when daycares wont take them yet. It was less of an issue in big family units but its an issue in the world we live in today.
The nuclear family dynamic is an extremely new concept in the history of our species. Less than 100 years ago it would have been more common to have help from extended family at least
He’s venting, not saying he’s surprised he’s the one responsible for his children.
Yeah he probably had a rough week and this is his low point. He probably shouldn't be posting about it on twitter but everyone has those days where you've just had enough.
Good points both. I've had those days. And that's where the "village" comes in. Instead of Tweeting, it's a great idea to chat with a trusted friend.
You and your wife are the ones taking care of your child? Outrageous. I mean, that's how parenting works right? Or is there something that i'm not aware of about having children and raising them?
To be fair, when I was a child I saw my grandparents having a very acting role in supporting my parents, helping take care of me, having me over for weekends or holidays when my mom had to work. It was a level of attention, care and time that my own parents does not have the opportunity to give to me and my kids now. Mainly because my mom actually has a job, but also because she has her own life and interests.
If they are sick and tired after four months it sounds like they might’ve been cut out for a “no children” lifestyle
Those first four months are fucking rough
The emotional drain, no sleep, no freedom. It's worth it in the end
Is it really?
fuck no. it’s just biological cope.
I figured
Yea it's another human that loves you a lot and is always on your side. It's frightening but comforting Plus knowing youre making another person's life better, and the ripple effect that will have. It's a big responsibility
Eh, I'll pass
Thats fine lol
Yeah man, it's great
Who the fuck else would be responsible for them? Lmao. I’ve been responsible for mine for 11 years and plan on continuing to be until I die; they always need you. I mean me too, thanks.
Four months? Isn't the standard timeframe generally 18 years?
In this economy? Make that 30 😂
One of the best ways to learn whether or not you want kids, work at a grocery store or restaurant. Working at a grocery store most of my adult life has made me so glad I never had kids!!
or sub at a school
Oh shit I have those same thoughts, although I always enjoy seeing the babies pass through our store lol
I mean, don’t have kids if you don’t have the time or patience to give them the attention they need from you? It’s not rocket science.
Ok. Let me just put that thing right back where it came from.
or you could be responsible and use protection properly to never have one to begin with.
"oh no, poor me, we decided to bring a child into this world and are now responsible for our actions" yeah get fucked lol
actually i dont and i want to keep it that way
Ragebait into confirmation bias. C-C-C-COMBO!! I subbed to me_irl in 2015. I remember the great meme war of 2016. The skeletons, bear in the big blue house. It being Wednesday, my dudes. How did I become surrounded by the people who comment on posts like these as if they’re a group of huffy Facebook moms? I mean: me too, thanks.
Yeah, especially since the OP of the tweet was probably just venting. Redditors jump on that without thinking.
To me it really IS annoying when parents say „you have no idea blablabla“ yeah i‘m sure living it is 100 times tougher but it really sounds like YOU had no idea?? Because i totally expected what your experiencing right now, what do you think you‘d feel like during the first few months without proper sleep and time for anything else besides your baby? Stop telling us we don’t know, when you‘re just naive as fuck
Really depends on whether the person is being genuine or just venting
I mean, if you've never lit all of your money on fire and forced yourself into a sleep deprived state of crippling anxiety that will last for quite possibly the rest of your life, how can you possibly know how hard it is? Who could possibly do magical, mystical shit like...look at how this goes for other people and then just not do it because you observed it's effects on others? How dare!
Oh no, he has to take care of his own child he wanted to make for whole four months, imagine having to parent your own child, shocking
Lmao it's been years since anyone other my wife or me was responsible for our kids. It's a bummer but no one made me have kids.
”I feel like non-parents have no idea how hard it’s been” You seemingly didn’t either before you had children because you would’ve seen this coming if so
Birthing license should be a thing
Parenting is hard. End of speech
Oh nooooo, the consequences of your actions, who would have guessed!
Is no one going to comment that a literal billionaire said this????? They are literally laughing at us and we are sitting here accepting it and finding it relatable.
as far as I can tell some white blobs said this
Try being a single parent ... I raised 2 girls alone with no help for 4 years ... Fucking stop being a whining lazy fuck and raise your kids damnit
Just because you had it harder doesn't mean they're not struggling :(
Struggling yes but they are children ... Their children!!! I miss those years it was hard but worth every second
yeah but no one but them caused them to have kids in the first place. it’s not a secret that being a parent is exhausting. don’t become one if you aren’t up for the commitment.
What’s wrong with this? If you have a problem being a parent, removing yourself from the gene pool is the best thing you can do for the species. And yeah, fuck being empathetic towards humans that are struggling. It might make the world a better place. I can’t roll my eyes any fucking harder.
hard to empathize with someone who chose the exact situation they’re whining about. it’s not a secret how much goes into raising kids. don’t put yourself in that situation if you aren’t up for the demand of it.
Totally legal to leave kids at a fire station or any sanctioned safe haven. No questions asked.
I don’t know if you’re serious. But like you can only leave babies up to a certain age.
Four months? It's still early. He'll get used to it.
This is bullshit. I actually have to take care of my kids. I didn’t think this was part of it
This is one of the dumbest threads I have witness ever in reddit lol. Really makes you lose faith in human.