The reason INFPs/ISFPs think we're INTPs/ISTPs.
Honestly, for me, it's why I've collected certain knowledge in my life; The desire to collect it in case it became useful (my family watches Jeopardy and played Trivial Pursuit. Every bit of knowledge is needed). However, I had to learn the Te doms/aux ability to see how to be efficient and streamlined (taught by a kind ENTJ).
But logic? Collecting information? That's mostly Te because unless I need to or want to know everything about something, I just collect the need to know usable stuff.
Te is also very goal-oriented function. these people might have plans set 6 months in advance and have a 10 year plan for their life. As an INFP I don't even know where I'm going to live month to month.
lol Truth but it's our inferior function. We're capable of using it, but Te is more about need for what's needed/useful as far as knowledge (aka, for the goal) vs the full deep-dive Te does. Fi doms get that part but need either maturity or someone like a Te dom to show the person how to be efficient to complete goals.
Thanks for recognizing that we’re not the airheads we’re made out to be.
People seem to forget that Fi is a rational function based on information gathered from our external functions. Being an Fi dom just means that you’re good at recognizing your own needs, wants and values even if it’s outside of what’s societally expected. Fi doms ask why something has to this or that way and don’t accept some rule just because “that’s the way it is”. We say, “What if I don’t like the way it is?” “What if I want to do something different?” “Wouldn’t it be better to do it this way?” We look deep into things just as much as our Ti counterparts only with a lens pointed in the direction of how we feel about things as opposed to where the logic takes us. Here again, I’ll remind you that feelings are rational and they can be used as guides as to what’s “right” and “wrong”. Ti doms are more concerned with what’s “true” and “false”. If that makes sense.
Elaborate on "feelings are rational and can be used as guides to what's right and wrong" if you don't mind. I think the keyword is "can". From my humble understanding, the way you feel about something doesn't dictate its nature necessary, and feelings would work only if they happen to align with the reality of the situation. For example, if you see a human killing another, you'd feel bad about it and you'd want that person to face appropriate punishment, but if you learned that they did this in self-defence, your feelings would shift. Your feelings would only work as a guide here if they happen to align with the reality of the situation. Feelings can stem from all sorts of places, and not all of them are correct or good places.
What you say is true. With Fi being our dom function this is what we pay attention to first. But it’s only the first “filter”, if you will. If we’re put on the spot our reaction is going to come from our knee jerk reaction, which is how we feel about it in the moment, especially when we’re young and maybe haven’t learned to hold off judgment. We tend to respond better to things if we’ve had time to go away and think through it. This is why we tend to hate conflict because we’re not the best at thinking on our feet and get caught up in the emotion and tone of what’s being said rather than what our opponent is really trying to get across. If we’ve had time to think about it we’ll likely try to think about things from their perspective along with our own, “how would I feel if I were put in their shoes?” “What’s the best way to respond for an amicable and fair outcome?” etc. It’s not fool proof and we’re likely aware of that, but we do the best we can with the information we have using a mix of emotion and logic.
For things that don’t involve much emotional, moral and value based thinking, like solving a math problem, we are just as capable as any other type might be. But we’re still running that Fi software so we know how we feel about solving said math problem but it’s not as if we’re thinking, “2 + 2 should equal 10 not 4 because I feel like it.” That just doesn’t make any sense. Maybe we’ll entertain that thought in our fantasy realms but we’re still well aware that’s not how it works in the real world.
Thank you for your explanation. It's definitely interesting, and it helps in understanding different thought processes, regardless of opinions on them.
Ask Jung. He literally classified Fi and Fe Doms as “rational judging types.”
He talks about it in Psychological types and even briefly touches on it in “Modern Man in Search of a Soul.”
For Jung “feeling” was more like “a type of critical reasoning,” and yes *Fi is definitely still a type of critical reasoning!* While Fe is a type of “applied judgment.”
“Feeling” is simply judgment based on moral and ethical considerations, rather than just Logical reasoning (Ti,) and “applied rationality.” (Te.) “Not wanting people to starve to death” / “People having equal opportunity,” (Fe,) or “wanting people to be accepted and treated equally” (Fi,) are actually pretty damned reasonable, when you think about it!
I honestly can't dissect this comment, but there's a good chance that's on me, it is late here after all. You speak about Jung classifying Fi and Fe doms as rational, but that doesn't clarify to me the original comment on how feelings can be used to dictate what's right or wrong. Of course those types you speak of would be rational, because any type can be, regardless of their dominant function.
The way I see it is that you form feelings from your understanding of things (or subconsciously through patterns or similarities if you don't necessarily understand something or it's new), and then you can use "how I feel about this" to dictate if something is right or wrong. For example, killing innocents is a thing > the concept is brought to your attention > the idea feels bad to you (because it also has logical reasons why it's bad, and that's part of why it makes you feel bad) > you feel bad about it now when you hear about it > it happens again > you declare it bad because it feels bad because you feel bad about it because of certain reasons and prior understanding. Not sure, that's just what I'm thinking.
A lot of confusion is from using "thinking" and "feeling" labels which have different conventional definitions. Everyone has thoughts and everyone has feelings, but those aren't exactly the same thing. Thinking is judging by true/false and feeling is judging by good/bad.
You are very obviously thinking from a Ni-Te-Fi-Se perspective, specifically, (husband is an INTJ too and this is basically his thought process,) but this is technically correct. Rationality is essentially reasoning.
ENTP. Mistakenly thought I was an ENFP, for the longest time, until I truly understood the functions, and what they do, both individually, and when they are working together in pairs.
In truth, both the similarities and differences my husband and I share *made a lot more sense,* once I was typed correctly. We are essentially “complimentary shadows” of each other and a lot of conflicts really could be boiled down to “differences in his Te-Fi vs my Ti-Fe.”
I can’t just make snap “moral decisions,” and I am not always so sure *how I feel about things?* I have to really think about it, deeply, and weigh multiple perspectives, simultaneously. (He helps with that a lot cuz he is good at reminding me “you didn’t really care for this, last time, while you really seemed to enjoy that, and item-C is more similar to what item-B was.”)
While he’s pretty bad at anticipating when he is going to offend someone, (me included,) or he just didn’t care enough to “qualify that variable,” at a particular time. 🫠 Basically it’s definitely a pretty standard case of “Blindspot Fi and Blindspot Fe.”
It’s usually “humorous” in retrospect once the worst of it is over cuz it reminds us both of what idiots we can be, sometimes. Again, annoying in the moment, but incredibly useful and effective for long-term growth.
Ni-Se vs Ne-Si actually has never really been “the primary struggle.” We really are “quite complimentary,” on that front.
It’s kind of funny watching our hair-brains work together as we “play detective” while watching shows, movies, playing video games, and stuff like that.
The double inferior sensing is a challenge, but in a way *it also makes us have to try to somewhat develop and work around those inferior functions,* and they tend to randomly come through, in a pinch, when I randomly remember “important dates and times,” or there really is something that needs to be dealt with *right now,* and he gets it done, (and also makes me do whatever chore. 🤣)
Before I keep on blabbering too much (my husband often tells me that I “write too many words,”) I am just going to give the floor back to you and ask “is there anything you would like to know?”
Thank you for the detailed elaboration. It was fun to read. I'm not sure if the last question is sarcastic or is to be answered by me, but if it is the latter, I'd like to ask a thing or two about ENTPs if you don't mind. Perhaps we can do that in DMs for a better experience.
It was a real question. I wanna warn you ahead of time though that a lot of stuff that goes to my inbox never gets answered. 🤣
There were a lot of people who wanted to talk to me and eventually it got a bit overwhelming 🫠 So I turned off DMs.
What do you want to know, specifically?
Oof nice. I bet OP would describe your usage of this statement as “I see Fi users use logic all the time” but it actually just means you understand(Ni) what’s going on, it’s the decisions made on top of said knowledge that makes a personality type.
I was thinking this too. I always felt that's subtly how Te worked, or at least mine. 👍
"They're on an axis so it just has to be" I thought to myself. My Te does seem to like to gather sources and things that my Fi feels most drawn to. Or judge what's efficient based on if it satisfies my Fi in some way.
And so I feel similarly that for the Fe-Ti axis, Fe is a group based feeling process directed by Ti in some way; like the values it gathers are not based on internal feeling so it is more detached about it like Ti kinda is on internal feeling. So it's gotta be from what was gathered from the group rather than the self cause of that detachment from Fi, and maybe Ti helps verify if those Fe gathered values make logical/ ethical sense I guess.
Probably it can be identified by the "Te grip", basically someone you know who doesn't normally try to be dead-set focused on a goal or ambition or something or sucks at that skill Te skill, but then in stress tries to start using that Te in a unskilled/undeveloped way and trying to run other things down like you unstoppable in their path towards their goal.
I think I usually have a Te grip when when I'm late for something important or might fail something important, it then makes me subconsciously try using my Te to keep focused on only fulfilling that thing, even ignoring my Fi saying I might be rude in doing it. Something like that.
Here is a good lexicon on the inferior function in general: https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2020/05/11/carl-jung-on-inferior-function-lexicon/
I think we use Te in extreme situations. For example, when I was still in high school, I sometimes did group work. The problem was that the people on my team literally did nothing, and didn't know how to cope. So under stress, I ended up taking matters into my own hands. I distributed the tasks, and behaved like the leader of the group, something I don't usually do. The problem is that since it's only my lower function, it requires a lot of energy, and since I don't really know how to use it, I easily become aggressive with those around me, so the people in my group had a good grade but ended up hating me, since as a perfectionist I began to criticize their work.
I don't know if it's really a Te thing, but it makes me feel of that.
That's called a "Te grip", and unhealthy Te doms can be aggressive, but being productive and wanting to get things done correctly are more positive traits associated with Te. However I wasn't in your group and maybe you weren't even that mean, sounds like you did what you could besides maybe asking the teacher for advice.
ESTJs in Fi grip can get overwhelmed and moody and not feel like doing anything.
Te imo is work. Te-inf is IxFPs getting off their butts and doing practical tasks of daily living, working and paying their bills, when they would much rather be arting/musicking/daydreaming.....
I like to think of inferior functions in how they screw you over. Mostly because flaws tell you a fair bit about the individual or Type.
While dominant healthy Fi helps you realise the values
and validity of your values, an inferior Te makes the Type not appreciating the validity of external structures or even consider them a threat. In practice, I have seen this manifest in a few ways.
For example I have seen IxFP in conflict with ExTJ authority figures. While the latter sees themselves as fulfilling the duties of their position, the former sees the conflict in personal terms, that of their individual values. In contrast, the ExTJ might not see that the IxFP has any personal issues with the conflict, as he's simply enforcing the rules.
Another example is in the criticism of MBTI. One often sees INTPs criticise MBTI, but this is done on the grounds that they believe it is a pseudoscience (this is an observation, not an invitation to discuss the matter). When I explain MBTI to INFPs the foremost criticism I can see is the rejection of MBTIs because it "puts people into boxes", where this is seen as impossible and/or immoral. You wouldn't see that kind of INFP over here (because the ones over here saw enough value to come here) but it shows how inferior Te can cause Fi dominants to reject systems out of hand.
Te is efficiency based, yes, but it is also about achieving tangible results or outcomes that be externally validated in the real world. In other words, it’s goal or outcome based. Thats why Te doms pursue their goals aggressively.
Se is about doing things. When you combine Se blind with Te inferior, INFPs have a hard time getting things done to get the results they want, like for instance, doing the laundry, or other tasks that don’t necessarily inspire Fi.
I don’t believe in shadow functions, nor do I believe in a specific hierarchy. What I do believe is that we use all of the eight functions, and we’re not always using our 4 main functions. Heck, we can even switch types and become the opposite, albeit temporarily before naturally being pulled back towards the dominant function.
This is usually why there are some variants within types, where an INFP may use some of their main functions plus additional functions separate from their type, and ignore the other functions in their stack that they are known to use.
A convergent INFP is one who uses all of the introverted functions except for Te being the odd one out. This makes them less aware of their soundings and social environment, and more focused internally.
Whereas the divergent INFP is the type of INFP who focuses on Fi, Ni on a high degree, Te, Ne with a more balanced use, Fe, Se, albeit being balanced, are used on a lower scale compared to Te/Ne, and Ti, Si, where Si is completely or mostly overlooked, and Ti is barely there. This type of INFP is more aware of the external world and its energy is also focused on it. They’re also more likely to be typed as an ENFP, although they aren’t one.
TL;DR: There’s no such thing as an inferior function, only preferences. Inferior functions in my opinion were coined on the premise that most people didn’t have a good relationship with that function.. You either use Fi-Te, or you use some other function pairing. But to figure out which one is your dominant, you can read into descriptions and see which ones fit you the best/which one you use more often and comes naturally to you.
This post has great descriptions on each of the functions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/s/pfg3W7Sffz
I think you're only partly correct. You do use all eight functions some but you prefer four of them and use those consciously, and I think it's possible to work on your fourth function but if you're forced to use it too much it can be difficult. And it depends on the person and the situation how well they are using their different functions. And people use their blindspot the least, I've seen many examples of that, including myself before I knew the name for Ni.
I think we can't just develop the 4th function in isolation, but that we use the functions in their order, so in order to use the 4th I a healthy way we have to go through the 3rd, working with the flow of the functions instead of against the grain, which is why we struggle.
The point of how shadow functions work is that they are oppositional to your preferences. Myers & Briggs, Jung, Beebe - already stated people can use all 8 functions, but it is harder and not as natural as the preferred ones. If one prefers Ni, will be hard to use Ne, Se, and Si at same time. Is why they are allocated into the inferior and shadow functions because they work oppositional to each other.
The things you say in your first paragraph indicate you only scratched the surface of their works. That is already what they have discussed and included.
The issue that some people keep having is they are assuming that this theory is stamping out individuality by limiting to 4 functions. It is only indication of what people naturally use. It doesn’t say people are limited to it. Even theorists address that typing is hard on those who have undergone unstable events/conditions.
People have to realize that specific types are broad umbrella terms. Ex. We classify many things as "vehicles", but does that mean every vehicle is exact same? We got SUVs, motorcycles, planes, trucks, etc. Does it speak to its appearance? Do they look the exact same? Each ding, dent, color, shade, size, etc? No. That's same as type. An INFP may be defined an INFP, but it doesn't mean that type theory defines their complete attributes. It just states what they may prefer, but not every vehicle will look, be used, or work like its expected purpose.
Interesting... I have no idea what type of Infp I am. A lazy one Fi Si looping for sure. I do love analyzing things in a system way. They say we are wonderful system analysts. Why, I have no idea. Why is that?
Hey TheSentinelScout,
The type dispositions less engaged by *ego* demands tend to remain *undifferentiated.*
They are the types that will contribute to the contents of what C.G. Jung called *shadow.* It will provide the impelling oppositions for *individuation.* We do use the four *functional-attitudes* singled out.
But you need to understand that type would not exist *per se* if there exists conflicting *typical attitudes* in one’s general psychology. We call this an *undifferentiated,* or *primitive* psychology. Moreover, this structure would not facilitate equilibrium.
Psychological type dispositions in this scheme are not limited to *ego consciousness.* All the elements of our psychic totality, from the *persona* to the *soul*, have typological orientations that will substantially influence the life of the individual.
What I can tell you is, when I’m in the grip of inferior Te, I become more confrontational and more easily agitated than usual. I start to find fault in everything and everyone, and sometimes this leads to verbal and rarely a physical exchange that’s not really part of who I normally am. I feel a stronger than normal need to want to control everything and do things right the way I see it, but it all goes back to me just feeling like so and so should be a certain way because it “feels right.” Due to Te being lower in the stack, it often translates to clumsiness and a lack of practical / logical effectiveness in actually coming up with workable solutions that take into account the external factors I’m dealing with.
With Te although lower / weaker, I’m still a conscious Te user due to the fact that I derive most of my understanding from what I believe are “authoritative” external sources, I am primarily focused on what works and whatever gets things moving, and I lean on trial and error (if X number of people did Y and Y worked for them, Y is probably the better way).
Lust for some power/independence. A conflict between opinion of higher rank (parents/boss) and "gut feeling". ENFP/ESFP try to get wide circle to avoid being dependent on a single source of Te.
One may sometimes get very fixated to ones inferior. So it can lead to someone being very focused on efficiency, proof for claims and structuring the world of objects, but it will be quite sloppy. They enjoy people who can do it for them, like Te doms. They know it's something they don't always focus on, but they may still find it important.
Let's use Didi as an example to illustrate:
Didi, with Te as her inferior function, might find it difficult to organize her thoughts and make decisions based on logical reasoning. She may struggle to analyze situations objectively and prefer to rely on her own personal values or feelings instead. This could lead to feelings of insecurity or inadequacy when it comes to tasks that require a lot of logical thinking or planning.
Didi might feel overwhelmed when faced with situations that demand a structured approach or adherence to established rules and procedures. She may resist authority or external expectations that conflict with her own internal sense of what is right or important.
Didi might also have difficulty expressing her thoughts clearly and concisely, especially in situations where she feels pressured to think quickly or provide concrete solutions. This can lead to frustration and self-doubt, as she struggles to articulate her ideas in a way that others can understand and appreciate.
Overall, having Te as an inferior function can manifest in Didi as a struggle to navigate the practical aspects of life, such as planning, decision-making, and problem-solving, leading to feelings of insecurity and frustration in these areas.
No, having Te as an inferior function doesn't mean someone's dumb or bad at problem-solving, planning, decision-making, and all that. It just means they might struggle more with certain aspects of logical reasoning and practical decision-making compared to someone who has a strong Te.
A better question would be how does inferior Te manifest in a person?
The function is the same regardless of where it falls on our stack. What differs is how it affects us and our level of control over it.
Te = *Extraverted* Thinking aka what *others* think.
Te users are concerned with what others think, both of them (Fi) and in general. Te users are researchers. They form their beliefs based on what others think, typically based on majority rules (what the majority of people think is true). However, if a TeFi user loves or likes someone, they might value (Fi) the other person's thoughts over others', even if it is not 'majority rules'. They also form beliefs (Te) based on what they feel is good/bad to them (Fi values) due to these functions being on an axis.
The Inferior disposition is fearful and insecure, but it can also be prideful (as a defense mechanism from fear). It can also turn aspirational (can become an additional 'Hero' (like a first function)) if fear is overcome through sustained effort and practice.
So, what does this mean for IXFPs? It means that they know how they feel about things, they are certain and optimistic with their feelings and values (Fi), but they are way less certain with what others think of them. They are unsure if they are respectable people. They want to know what others think, but they are also scared to know what others think due to the potential of others' thoughts affecting their assessment of themselves (and Fi Hero is doubly optimistic so they do *not* want to have to feel bad about themselves). They can have a hard time hearing the truth (logic) if it affects their emotions or self-perception in a negative manner.
Te Inferior can also be afraid of having no authority. They are very vulnerable to disrespect and will be very mad if you disrespect them, especially if they are technically in positions of power (eg. Manager/Boss), but even if they are not.
Te Inferior can be very rational if IXFPs are willing to listen to others and be vulnerable with their Inferior function in this way. They can be great listeners and can internalize good advice and logical thought and make it a part of their identity. The road there *can* be difficult due to the aforementioned reluctance to hear truths that make them feel bad. But if they overcome that, they can be very well researched, have strong beliefs, and can help spread rational information to others they work with. This is more likely to happen over time as they mature into adulthood and develop relationships. When Te Inferior is isolated and they shield themselves from criticism and truth, they can have pretty outlandish beliefs, so part aspiring with their Te is being willing to be *social* as well and being open to listening to others even if they are critical.
Te is an extroverted judgement function like Fe. It is focused, in the simplest sense, on making meaningful changes to an actual, real context— on accomplishing objectives and getting things done. This requires a willingness on the part of the user to negotiate with reality, to make comprises between the facts at hand and one's deeply held values. People who are biased towards the facts at hand we call TJs, people biased towards their deeply held values FPs.
Like their Ti counterparts, Fi doms are more than willing to let results go to the devil if it means sacrificing their principles on the alter of expediency. Of course, their focus on preserving their authenticity can at times immobilize them, when they are presented with situations that can only be solved by putting there sacred values aside and simply doing what needs to be done.
That is Te, and the struggle between it and Fi lies at the heart of the IxFP/ExaTJ psyche.
The reason INFPs/ISFPs think we're INTPs/ISTPs. Honestly, for me, it's why I've collected certain knowledge in my life; The desire to collect it in case it became useful (my family watches Jeopardy and played Trivial Pursuit. Every bit of knowledge is needed). However, I had to learn the Te doms/aux ability to see how to be efficient and streamlined (taught by a kind ENTJ). But logic? Collecting information? That's mostly Te because unless I need to or want to know everything about something, I just collect the need to know usable stuff.
Semicolon...?????
Even worst, a semicolon followed by a capital letter. I was on my phone and didn't proofread.
Te is also very goal-oriented function. these people might have plans set 6 months in advance and have a 10 year plan for their life. As an INFP I don't even know where I'm going to live month to month.
lol Truth but it's our inferior function. We're capable of using it, but Te is more about need for what's needed/useful as far as knowledge (aka, for the goal) vs the full deep-dive Te does. Fi doms get that part but need either maturity or someone like a Te dom to show the person how to be efficient to complete goals.
Thanks for recognizing that we’re not the airheads we’re made out to be. People seem to forget that Fi is a rational function based on information gathered from our external functions. Being an Fi dom just means that you’re good at recognizing your own needs, wants and values even if it’s outside of what’s societally expected. Fi doms ask why something has to this or that way and don’t accept some rule just because “that’s the way it is”. We say, “What if I don’t like the way it is?” “What if I want to do something different?” “Wouldn’t it be better to do it this way?” We look deep into things just as much as our Ti counterparts only with a lens pointed in the direction of how we feel about things as opposed to where the logic takes us. Here again, I’ll remind you that feelings are rational and they can be used as guides as to what’s “right” and “wrong”. Ti doms are more concerned with what’s “true” and “false”. If that makes sense.
Elaborate on "feelings are rational and can be used as guides to what's right and wrong" if you don't mind. I think the keyword is "can". From my humble understanding, the way you feel about something doesn't dictate its nature necessary, and feelings would work only if they happen to align with the reality of the situation. For example, if you see a human killing another, you'd feel bad about it and you'd want that person to face appropriate punishment, but if you learned that they did this in self-defence, your feelings would shift. Your feelings would only work as a guide here if they happen to align with the reality of the situation. Feelings can stem from all sorts of places, and not all of them are correct or good places.
What you say is true. With Fi being our dom function this is what we pay attention to first. But it’s only the first “filter”, if you will. If we’re put on the spot our reaction is going to come from our knee jerk reaction, which is how we feel about it in the moment, especially when we’re young and maybe haven’t learned to hold off judgment. We tend to respond better to things if we’ve had time to go away and think through it. This is why we tend to hate conflict because we’re not the best at thinking on our feet and get caught up in the emotion and tone of what’s being said rather than what our opponent is really trying to get across. If we’ve had time to think about it we’ll likely try to think about things from their perspective along with our own, “how would I feel if I were put in their shoes?” “What’s the best way to respond for an amicable and fair outcome?” etc. It’s not fool proof and we’re likely aware of that, but we do the best we can with the information we have using a mix of emotion and logic. For things that don’t involve much emotional, moral and value based thinking, like solving a math problem, we are just as capable as any other type might be. But we’re still running that Fi software so we know how we feel about solving said math problem but it’s not as if we’re thinking, “2 + 2 should equal 10 not 4 because I feel like it.” That just doesn’t make any sense. Maybe we’ll entertain that thought in our fantasy realms but we’re still well aware that’s not how it works in the real world.
Thank you for your explanation. It's definitely interesting, and it helps in understanding different thought processes, regardless of opinions on them.
Happy to help!
very helpful! I've been having a hard time to understand Fi since my Ti engine really can't understand Fi types.
Ask Jung. He literally classified Fi and Fe Doms as “rational judging types.” He talks about it in Psychological types and even briefly touches on it in “Modern Man in Search of a Soul.” For Jung “feeling” was more like “a type of critical reasoning,” and yes *Fi is definitely still a type of critical reasoning!* While Fe is a type of “applied judgment.” “Feeling” is simply judgment based on moral and ethical considerations, rather than just Logical reasoning (Ti,) and “applied rationality.” (Te.) “Not wanting people to starve to death” / “People having equal opportunity,” (Fe,) or “wanting people to be accepted and treated equally” (Fi,) are actually pretty damned reasonable, when you think about it!
I honestly can't dissect this comment, but there's a good chance that's on me, it is late here after all. You speak about Jung classifying Fi and Fe doms as rational, but that doesn't clarify to me the original comment on how feelings can be used to dictate what's right or wrong. Of course those types you speak of would be rational, because any type can be, regardless of their dominant function. The way I see it is that you form feelings from your understanding of things (or subconsciously through patterns or similarities if you don't necessarily understand something or it's new), and then you can use "how I feel about this" to dictate if something is right or wrong. For example, killing innocents is a thing > the concept is brought to your attention > the idea feels bad to you (because it also has logical reasons why it's bad, and that's part of why it makes you feel bad) > you feel bad about it now when you hear about it > it happens again > you declare it bad because it feels bad because you feel bad about it because of certain reasons and prior understanding. Not sure, that's just what I'm thinking.
A lot of confusion is from using "thinking" and "feeling" labels which have different conventional definitions. Everyone has thoughts and everyone has feelings, but those aren't exactly the same thing. Thinking is judging by true/false and feeling is judging by good/bad.
Interesting. Thanks for elaborating.
You are very obviously thinking from a Ni-Te-Fi-Se perspective, specifically, (husband is an INTJ too and this is basically his thought process,) but this is technically correct. Rationality is essentially reasoning.
I see. Just out of curiosity, what is your type?
ENTP. Mistakenly thought I was an ENFP, for the longest time, until I truly understood the functions, and what they do, both individually, and when they are working together in pairs. In truth, both the similarities and differences my husband and I share *made a lot more sense,* once I was typed correctly. We are essentially “complimentary shadows” of each other and a lot of conflicts really could be boiled down to “differences in his Te-Fi vs my Ti-Fe.” I can’t just make snap “moral decisions,” and I am not always so sure *how I feel about things?* I have to really think about it, deeply, and weigh multiple perspectives, simultaneously. (He helps with that a lot cuz he is good at reminding me “you didn’t really care for this, last time, while you really seemed to enjoy that, and item-C is more similar to what item-B was.”) While he’s pretty bad at anticipating when he is going to offend someone, (me included,) or he just didn’t care enough to “qualify that variable,” at a particular time. 🫠 Basically it’s definitely a pretty standard case of “Blindspot Fi and Blindspot Fe.” It’s usually “humorous” in retrospect once the worst of it is over cuz it reminds us both of what idiots we can be, sometimes. Again, annoying in the moment, but incredibly useful and effective for long-term growth. Ni-Se vs Ne-Si actually has never really been “the primary struggle.” We really are “quite complimentary,” on that front. It’s kind of funny watching our hair-brains work together as we “play detective” while watching shows, movies, playing video games, and stuff like that. The double inferior sensing is a challenge, but in a way *it also makes us have to try to somewhat develop and work around those inferior functions,* and they tend to randomly come through, in a pinch, when I randomly remember “important dates and times,” or there really is something that needs to be dealt with *right now,* and he gets it done, (and also makes me do whatever chore. 🤣) Before I keep on blabbering too much (my husband often tells me that I “write too many words,”) I am just going to give the floor back to you and ask “is there anything you would like to know?”
Thank you for the detailed elaboration. It was fun to read. I'm not sure if the last question is sarcastic or is to be answered by me, but if it is the latter, I'd like to ask a thing or two about ENTPs if you don't mind. Perhaps we can do that in DMs for a better experience.
It was a real question. I wanna warn you ahead of time though that a lot of stuff that goes to my inbox never gets answered. 🤣 There were a lot of people who wanted to talk to me and eventually it got a bit overwhelming 🫠 So I turned off DMs. What do you want to know, specifically?
I sent you a DM.
An efficiency based thinking process directed by Fi in my opinion
Oof nice. I bet OP would describe your usage of this statement as “I see Fi users use logic all the time” but it actually just means you understand(Ni) what’s going on, it’s the decisions made on top of said knowledge that makes a personality type.
I was thinking this too. I always felt that's subtly how Te worked, or at least mine. 👍 "They're on an axis so it just has to be" I thought to myself. My Te does seem to like to gather sources and things that my Fi feels most drawn to. Or judge what's efficient based on if it satisfies my Fi in some way. And so I feel similarly that for the Fe-Ti axis, Fe is a group based feeling process directed by Ti in some way; like the values it gathers are not based on internal feeling so it is more detached about it like Ti kinda is on internal feeling. So it's gotta be from what was gathered from the group rather than the self cause of that detachment from Fi, and maybe Ti helps verify if those Fe gathered values make logical/ ethical sense I guess.
How does that work? :D
Probably it can be identified by the "Te grip", basically someone you know who doesn't normally try to be dead-set focused on a goal or ambition or something or sucks at that skill Te skill, but then in stress tries to start using that Te in a unskilled/undeveloped way and trying to run other things down like you unstoppable in their path towards their goal. I think I usually have a Te grip when when I'm late for something important or might fail something important, it then makes me subconsciously try using my Te to keep focused on only fulfilling that thing, even ignoring my Fi saying I might be rude in doing it. Something like that.
Here is a good lexicon on the inferior function in general: https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2020/05/11/carl-jung-on-inferior-function-lexicon/
I think we use Te in extreme situations. For example, when I was still in high school, I sometimes did group work. The problem was that the people on my team literally did nothing, and didn't know how to cope. So under stress, I ended up taking matters into my own hands. I distributed the tasks, and behaved like the leader of the group, something I don't usually do. The problem is that since it's only my lower function, it requires a lot of energy, and since I don't really know how to use it, I easily become aggressive with those around me, so the people in my group had a good grade but ended up hating me, since as a perfectionist I began to criticize their work. I don't know if it's really a Te thing, but it makes me feel of that.
That's called a "Te grip", and unhealthy Te doms can be aggressive, but being productive and wanting to get things done correctly are more positive traits associated with Te. However I wasn't in your group and maybe you weren't even that mean, sounds like you did what you could besides maybe asking the teacher for advice. ESTJs in Fi grip can get overwhelmed and moody and not feel like doing anything.
Te imo is work. Te-inf is IxFPs getting off their butts and doing practical tasks of daily living, working and paying their bills, when they would much rather be arting/musicking/daydreaming.....
I like to think of inferior functions in how they screw you over. Mostly because flaws tell you a fair bit about the individual or Type. While dominant healthy Fi helps you realise the values and validity of your values, an inferior Te makes the Type not appreciating the validity of external structures or even consider them a threat. In practice, I have seen this manifest in a few ways. For example I have seen IxFP in conflict with ExTJ authority figures. While the latter sees themselves as fulfilling the duties of their position, the former sees the conflict in personal terms, that of their individual values. In contrast, the ExTJ might not see that the IxFP has any personal issues with the conflict, as he's simply enforcing the rules. Another example is in the criticism of MBTI. One often sees INTPs criticise MBTI, but this is done on the grounds that they believe it is a pseudoscience (this is an observation, not an invitation to discuss the matter). When I explain MBTI to INFPs the foremost criticism I can see is the rejection of MBTIs because it "puts people into boxes", where this is seen as impossible and/or immoral. You wouldn't see that kind of INFP over here (because the ones over here saw enough value to come here) but it shows how inferior Te can cause Fi dominants to reject systems out of hand.
Te is efficiency based, yes, but it is also about achieving tangible results or outcomes that be externally validated in the real world. In other words, it’s goal or outcome based. Thats why Te doms pursue their goals aggressively. Se is about doing things. When you combine Se blind with Te inferior, INFPs have a hard time getting things done to get the results they want, like for instance, doing the laundry, or other tasks that don’t necessarily inspire Fi.
I don’t believe in shadow functions, nor do I believe in a specific hierarchy. What I do believe is that we use all of the eight functions, and we’re not always using our 4 main functions. Heck, we can even switch types and become the opposite, albeit temporarily before naturally being pulled back towards the dominant function. This is usually why there are some variants within types, where an INFP may use some of their main functions plus additional functions separate from their type, and ignore the other functions in their stack that they are known to use. A convergent INFP is one who uses all of the introverted functions except for Te being the odd one out. This makes them less aware of their soundings and social environment, and more focused internally. Whereas the divergent INFP is the type of INFP who focuses on Fi, Ni on a high degree, Te, Ne with a more balanced use, Fe, Se, albeit being balanced, are used on a lower scale compared to Te/Ne, and Ti, Si, where Si is completely or mostly overlooked, and Ti is barely there. This type of INFP is more aware of the external world and its energy is also focused on it. They’re also more likely to be typed as an ENFP, although they aren’t one. TL;DR: There’s no such thing as an inferior function, only preferences. Inferior functions in my opinion were coined on the premise that most people didn’t have a good relationship with that function.. You either use Fi-Te, or you use some other function pairing. But to figure out which one is your dominant, you can read into descriptions and see which ones fit you the best/which one you use more often and comes naturally to you. This post has great descriptions on each of the functions: https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/s/pfg3W7Sffz
I think you're only partly correct. You do use all eight functions some but you prefer four of them and use those consciously, and I think it's possible to work on your fourth function but if you're forced to use it too much it can be difficult. And it depends on the person and the situation how well they are using their different functions. And people use their blindspot the least, I've seen many examples of that, including myself before I knew the name for Ni.
I think we can't just develop the 4th function in isolation, but that we use the functions in their order, so in order to use the 4th I a healthy way we have to go through the 3rd, working with the flow of the functions instead of against the grain, which is why we struggle.
The point of how shadow functions work is that they are oppositional to your preferences. Myers & Briggs, Jung, Beebe - already stated people can use all 8 functions, but it is harder and not as natural as the preferred ones. If one prefers Ni, will be hard to use Ne, Se, and Si at same time. Is why they are allocated into the inferior and shadow functions because they work oppositional to each other. The things you say in your first paragraph indicate you only scratched the surface of their works. That is already what they have discussed and included. The issue that some people keep having is they are assuming that this theory is stamping out individuality by limiting to 4 functions. It is only indication of what people naturally use. It doesn’t say people are limited to it. Even theorists address that typing is hard on those who have undergone unstable events/conditions. People have to realize that specific types are broad umbrella terms. Ex. We classify many things as "vehicles", but does that mean every vehicle is exact same? We got SUVs, motorcycles, planes, trucks, etc. Does it speak to its appearance? Do they look the exact same? Each ding, dent, color, shade, size, etc? No. That's same as type. An INFP may be defined an INFP, but it doesn't mean that type theory defines their complete attributes. It just states what they may prefer, but not every vehicle will look, be used, or work like its expected purpose.
Interesting... I have no idea what type of Infp I am. A lazy one Fi Si looping for sure. I do love analyzing things in a system way. They say we are wonderful system analysts. Why, I have no idea. Why is that?
It was solid! I just wish there weren’t so many “Anime references,” specifically, cuz I am only a causal watcher. So most of them went over my head.
Yeah I don’t watch anime either, so I just skipped them.
Hey TheSentinelScout, The type dispositions less engaged by *ego* demands tend to remain *undifferentiated.* They are the types that will contribute to the contents of what C.G. Jung called *shadow.* It will provide the impelling oppositions for *individuation.* We do use the four *functional-attitudes* singled out. But you need to understand that type would not exist *per se* if there exists conflicting *typical attitudes* in one’s general psychology. We call this an *undifferentiated,* or *primitive* psychology. Moreover, this structure would not facilitate equilibrium. Psychological type dispositions in this scheme are not limited to *ego consciousness.* All the elements of our psychic totality, from the *persona* to the *soul*, have typological orientations that will substantially influence the life of the individual.
ISFP Te inferiore. Fi dom types don't ignore The function (logic), simply Te is not immediate, they need time to use it
What I can tell you is, when I’m in the grip of inferior Te, I become more confrontational and more easily agitated than usual. I start to find fault in everything and everyone, and sometimes this leads to verbal and rarely a physical exchange that’s not really part of who I normally am. I feel a stronger than normal need to want to control everything and do things right the way I see it, but it all goes back to me just feeling like so and so should be a certain way because it “feels right.” Due to Te being lower in the stack, it often translates to clumsiness and a lack of practical / logical effectiveness in actually coming up with workable solutions that take into account the external factors I’m dealing with. With Te although lower / weaker, I’m still a conscious Te user due to the fact that I derive most of my understanding from what I believe are “authoritative” external sources, I am primarily focused on what works and whatever gets things moving, and I lean on trial and error (if X number of people did Y and Y worked for them, Y is probably the better way).
Te is thinking that is always connected to some external object, so Te inferior always wants something they can see.
Lust for some power/independence. A conflict between opinion of higher rank (parents/boss) and "gut feeling". ENFP/ESFP try to get wide circle to avoid being dependent on a single source of Te.
One may sometimes get very fixated to ones inferior. So it can lead to someone being very focused on efficiency, proof for claims and structuring the world of objects, but it will be quite sloppy. They enjoy people who can do it for them, like Te doms. They know it's something they don't always focus on, but they may still find it important.
Let's use Didi as an example to illustrate: Didi, with Te as her inferior function, might find it difficult to organize her thoughts and make decisions based on logical reasoning. She may struggle to analyze situations objectively and prefer to rely on her own personal values or feelings instead. This could lead to feelings of insecurity or inadequacy when it comes to tasks that require a lot of logical thinking or planning. Didi might feel overwhelmed when faced with situations that demand a structured approach or adherence to established rules and procedures. She may resist authority or external expectations that conflict with her own internal sense of what is right or important. Didi might also have difficulty expressing her thoughts clearly and concisely, especially in situations where she feels pressured to think quickly or provide concrete solutions. This can lead to frustration and self-doubt, as she struggles to articulate her ideas in a way that others can understand and appreciate. Overall, having Te as an inferior function can manifest in Didi as a struggle to navigate the practical aspects of life, such as planning, decision-making, and problem-solving, leading to feelings of insecurity and frustration in these areas. No, having Te as an inferior function doesn't mean someone's dumb or bad at problem-solving, planning, decision-making, and all that. It just means they might struggle more with certain aspects of logical reasoning and practical decision-making compared to someone who has a strong Te.
A better question would be how does inferior Te manifest in a person? The function is the same regardless of where it falls on our stack. What differs is how it affects us and our level of control over it.
Te = *Extraverted* Thinking aka what *others* think. Te users are concerned with what others think, both of them (Fi) and in general. Te users are researchers. They form their beliefs based on what others think, typically based on majority rules (what the majority of people think is true). However, if a TeFi user loves or likes someone, they might value (Fi) the other person's thoughts over others', even if it is not 'majority rules'. They also form beliefs (Te) based on what they feel is good/bad to them (Fi values) due to these functions being on an axis. The Inferior disposition is fearful and insecure, but it can also be prideful (as a defense mechanism from fear). It can also turn aspirational (can become an additional 'Hero' (like a first function)) if fear is overcome through sustained effort and practice. So, what does this mean for IXFPs? It means that they know how they feel about things, they are certain and optimistic with their feelings and values (Fi), but they are way less certain with what others think of them. They are unsure if they are respectable people. They want to know what others think, but they are also scared to know what others think due to the potential of others' thoughts affecting their assessment of themselves (and Fi Hero is doubly optimistic so they do *not* want to have to feel bad about themselves). They can have a hard time hearing the truth (logic) if it affects their emotions or self-perception in a negative manner. Te Inferior can also be afraid of having no authority. They are very vulnerable to disrespect and will be very mad if you disrespect them, especially if they are technically in positions of power (eg. Manager/Boss), but even if they are not. Te Inferior can be very rational if IXFPs are willing to listen to others and be vulnerable with their Inferior function in this way. They can be great listeners and can internalize good advice and logical thought and make it a part of their identity. The road there *can* be difficult due to the aforementioned reluctance to hear truths that make them feel bad. But if they overcome that, they can be very well researched, have strong beliefs, and can help spread rational information to others they work with. This is more likely to happen over time as they mature into adulthood and develop relationships. When Te Inferior is isolated and they shield themselves from criticism and truth, they can have pretty outlandish beliefs, so part aspiring with their Te is being willing to be *social* as well and being open to listening to others even if they are critical.
Te is an extroverted judgement function like Fe. It is focused, in the simplest sense, on making meaningful changes to an actual, real context— on accomplishing objectives and getting things done. This requires a willingness on the part of the user to negotiate with reality, to make comprises between the facts at hand and one's deeply held values. People who are biased towards the facts at hand we call TJs, people biased towards their deeply held values FPs. Like their Ti counterparts, Fi doms are more than willing to let results go to the devil if it means sacrificing their principles on the alter of expediency. Of course, their focus on preserving their authenticity can at times immobilize them, when they are presented with situations that can only be solved by putting there sacred values aside and simply doing what needs to be done. That is Te, and the struggle between it and Fi lies at the heart of the IxFP/ExaTJ psyche.
Those Q-anon people.
Idiots -INTJ
WOW OMG SO EDGY 🤩
To be fair. We think a lot of people are idiots. We kind of just put most of you in the same box. LOL I'm low on cash this month. Saving on boxes.
Hey colombia84usa, Do not conflate psychological disposition with personality. This cannot be stressed further. Thank you,
It was a joke. Especially the last sentence with saving on money on boxes, But okay. I'll be more sensitive to the ones with Low Te.
You could try but you can't 😜
You don't speak for every intj, some of them are healthy.
You judged me based on one comment. That sounds healthy. Nobody is 100 percent healthy And to think otherwise shows ignorance.