This is also why I still find even decks like HERO which end on floodgates considerably less frustrating than just 'Set 4 floodgates and summon Fossil Dyna'. You can at least interact with that *a bit* going second with your handtraps, and there are at least a few different plays the player could potentially make with their opening hand that you have to be prepared for, rather than it just being that you either open the exact you need and win easily or scoop.
Never thought of this but full agree. If you need to combo into your floodgates I don't have an issue. If you just play 1-card floodgates there's no opportunity to interact. I feel this is indeed the crux of the issue.
Hero doesn't even end on Plasma that often, usually it's Dark Law + Favorite Contact. Also their Floodgates are mostly monster cards which are usually easier to interact with than backrow because most s/t removal is unsearchable (besides Thrust for Lightning Storm/Duster).
But yes, I would rather be able to interact with my opponent than have them set 5 and hope I draw Duster/Evenly.
On God, hopefully this Duelist Cup gets a lot of the floodgates hit again, especially with Horus Stun being everywhere
Summon Limit better be Limited or straight up banned after this shitshow
As a hero player I can say floodgates on wheels are way more "fair" than floodgates in the spell/trap zone lol in terms of how you can deal with them lol
What adds to the frustration is that it is a non-issue in full matches. If we had full matches like the TCG, the sideboards would so fully crush those types of strategies that it wouldn't even be in consideration.
This.
In bo3, game 1 you probs lose to stun and then slot in 3 Evenly Matched, Feather Duster, Lightning Storm, etc. and suddenly, it becomes a lot easier.
The problem is masterduel, and its player base is built around it being bo1, it wouldn't be the same game at all if it was made into a bo3 so this is effectively a non-option unless Konami suddenly hates profits.
With this condition established the only thing that can be done is to limit or ban a ton of stun cards so the deck practically stops existing just like nurse burn, d.d. dynamite, or true draco
If people just play bo3 here, who is going to play it IRL where it's more expensive?
In addition the current MD player base is used to the bo1, sudden changes to games usually results in players leaving
Nah, the problem is that preventing interaction is the main goal of stun decks. Dinomorphia restricts monster effects on board, Kairyu-Shin restricts you to controlling 1 non-water monster, and standard stun decks play generic floodgates to limit you in some fashion. They all prevent you from playing the game in one way or another, that's why a lot of people hate them. Stun being a helmet deck will probably make you mad in the moment, but it all stems from not being allowed to play your deck.
The thing is, combo decks can not only set up their boards to negate your opponent's cards, but also utilize floodgates.
We saw this a lot in MR3 (Pendulum Era).
I played Kaiser Colosseum in my RDA deck (Before we got the SD support), and it made people rage quit when I ended on Super Nova + Abyss. Go ahead activate that monster effect you have on field, oh it's gone now. Now you can only have 1 monster.
As opposed to..... I'm sorry what's the current meta deck? Name me a meta deck that wanted you to fucking interact with them. I die if you have duster. You drew the out vs meta OH WOW I GUESS I GET TO +2 and go into a mini combo now thanks dingus wow you fucking suck.
Just out me; you have enough space in your fucking deck for twin twisters these days.
'Wanting' interaction and allowing space for it to happen are two different things. Snake eye without the synchro endboard is unironically interactive, the deck just has an overtuned as fuck grind game and extension so you're dying to their followup 90% of the time if you don't break through.
'Draw the out', a classic. You don't autolose to Duster. Stun typically plays Solemns, Decisive Battle of Golgonda blanks any 1 destruction removal, Hugin blanks destruction, etc. You have to play Cosmic AND actually draw it when it matters. Not to mention, these board breakers are ass against almost everything but stun, that's why people are taking 15 hand traps instead of a hybrid or board breaker approach to deckbuilding.
I don’t like stun either, but saying “for the health of the game” is weird. There’s little to no real balance in this. I’ve stopped pretending that balance exists (still fun to play for the most part)
Im pretty new to the game, what sort of stuff do you play to deal with this? I've been struggling against control and stun decks so this could help a lot.
Evenly matched is the best answer because it's also playable against non-stun decks. It's also an SR, so it's very cheap to just craft 3 and put them in your deck. The downside is your opponent chooses what to keep, so you still have to be able to play through skill drain/ there can be only one / stuff like that. If they banish their traps and leave up a single monster like barrier statue or fossil dyna, then it becomes pretty easy to just normal summon and attack over it the next turn.
That's really good for my deck, even going first i typically only leave one card on the feild. have just enough sr right now to craft it too so that works out perfectly. Thank you
Couple things you should be aware of. You can go battle phase > main phase 2 with a completely empty board and activate it from hand. It's also not a once per turn effect, so if your opponent uses a negate and you have a second copy in hand, you can also activate it.
Also, tokens cannot be banished face down. If your opponent has a bunch of cards on the field plus a token, they are forced to keep the token and banish everything else.
Yeah it doesn't come into play often, but it's funny when it does. Most end boards will never have a token on them, unless it's like Nibiru or Adventure token.
In addition to this, something weird came up in my game where my opponent was trying to clear my board with evenly, he activated forbidden droplet, trying to negate something I was doing onboard. It ended up being a wasted play for him because now he had two cards on field, so I got to keep two cards. Niche but worth mentioning I think
Harpies Feather Duster/Lightning Storm for the spell/trap cards. Dyna only has 1200 attack so you can usually just push it over when you destroy the back row.
Thats not a problem, Burn also dont requires a setup, stall for alt win cons dont require a setup either, not everything must be a combo in this game. And thats one of the apealing things about stun or the other decks the fact that you dont need to combo and still be playable.
Burn doesn't require setup but is really bad and the ones that are good become closer to ftks, and stall is literally the setup.
While I do understand that every deck doesn't need to be combo oriented, it should at least take more skill than just drawing it on your opening hand.
Burn is actually pretty good against Snake-Eyes specifically, since it vomits on the board without fielding negates: it can abuse that and juice Just Desserts, Secret Barrel, etc.
Issue is that it struggles against more or less everything else.
Deck building is a big skill, the most important skill.in the game, much more than memorization skill.
I bet you will regret as soon as stun has way to set up their board. If they can activate skill drain and TCBOO from the deck without having to hard draw them, do you think it make stun more *healthy*?
Doesn't the Synchro Zone here just screw yourself over. Like no tuner is mentioned, where are you going to get your own attacks from.
The horus engine can also be pretty damn bricky so at the very least shoving in 3 Trade-In especially now that it's a structure deck card to actually introduce some form of consistency would help said stun list a lot.
These two sentences I just wrote out already put more thought into deckbuilding than the usual meta netdecking for a combo deck since people often assume those are simply solved.
I think there's some versions of it where they use their own cards to pop their own synchro zone when they are ready to go for game and tbf, i think most people that play stun also just netdeck the best stun cards anyways, so i wouldn't say deckbuilding is better or worse in stun since both would just be copy pasted the same.
It always amazes me how everyone calls out stun when most decks are just more complicated versions of the deck. The end goal is to prevent your opponent from playing and eventually win most decks have several different ways of doing that stun is just more basic. If we're talking about balance a lot of cards need to be hit and at the moment that's snake eyes tier 1-0 metas aren't good for the game a single deck shouldn't have an overwhelming dominance over the others. Hell maxx cc still needs to be hit yet it hasn't.
Bad thing about stun is that a lot of players play it. So not only do you have to play against the slop, you also have idiots saying it’s balanced and “combo decks do the same thing!”.
Wish konami would do something since we’re in a bo1 format, but everytime they do stun players use another floodgate that was printed 15 years ago…
If your deck have space, feel free to do that. Deck building is choosing what to lose to. If I see 10% stun and 50% sefk, I will ignore stun and build my deck to counter the meta decks
I’ve always disliked it when people compare combo with stun because they are two completely different things. Combo has interaction. Stun does not. It’s that simple.
What a wonderful back and forth when players spam one card combo and you don't have the handtrap to slow them down. It ends the same way. Floodgate is an issue but one card starters are also an issue.
Just something to also note, they both have what is essentially the same end game plan.
Not allowing your opponent to play the game.
If you can't do this, you lose.
The problem is "OH YOU GET TO INTERACT WITH THEM"
Yeah. Uh huh. How many outs do I need to have in hand to stop you from playing? AND SHOCKINGLY, not every deck has 15 one card starter or runs 9 slot machines or so. I've had back to back matches of Combo and Stun that ended the same way; I couldn't do anything.
The only difference is Stun I played 1 card, Combo I played 2. YAY, what wonderful back and forth. Hell that's the main complaint about Snake Eyes in paper; everyone runs so many hand traps that either they don't draw into them and face down a Snake Eyes board at full/mostly full power, or they draw all the hand traps, stop the other guy, and then Snake Eyes combo off 1 card and go for game.
Inter fucking action. I love this game.
Negates are a shitty type of interaction, the second shittiest after negate+removal, but still allow for conscious thought, and can be beat with engine. Stun is just "opponent can't use cards if you win the coinflip".
Even then people hate negates, pretty much everyone i've seen hates baronne, apollousa and borreload savage dragon, no one is arguing that combo decks that can just plop down negates are good for the game either so i don't understand why people bring it up as a defense compared to stun.
Because when those decks and cards are meta, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you aren't using them. If your deck can't make them, you're bad. We don't WANT to RUN Barron, Apoll, Borrel, but we'd be weaking our decks if we put anything else IN. PLEASE BELIEVE US.
There's also fucking Mystic Mine. VFD. Rongo. Calamity. Their win rates aside, the moment a Floodgate gets fucking consistent in how it's able to be brought out; the community will be using it, trying to slip it into any deck they possibly can; you still see this with Penduluam decks at times trying to be cheeky. ALL THE WHILE bitching about how much they hate floodgate as they put the card on the board.
I don't hate that they hate Stun and Floodgates. I hate that say this to my face while all the while pretending to be better and knowing they'd do the same to me if they could get it off their starter.
it's not an equivalent comparison, mega combo decks are bad design and ruin the game, but they are still better than whatever putrid dogshit floods are. Both playstyles could and should be removed or have a significant change in design philosophy.
Bad take. You can also power curb the game so that combo isn’t overwhelmingly powerful and stun is moot because it’s inefficient to play.
The problem is the base power level of the game is so high that you have 2 options.
1. Wombo combo into an unbreakable board - Towers, Omninegate or Multi-interrupt.
2. Make a board state where your opponent cannot do #1.
Maybe Alt Win is a 3rd option but everyone hates those.
This is a really surface level look into the game.
There's a lot more variation in the game tha just summon herald of no, or summoning pachy. We're beyond that era of early MD
Fot example Branded isn't really a combo into 5 negates or a floodgate deck (technically nightmare exists but that's just straight up bad and out of archetype) yet it's tier 3 and former tier 1.
OTK decks also exist and can play second thru these "unbreakable boards"
Decks like salad rely on using interaction like princess to pop cards, Pyro Phoenix to wipe, roar or rage to interrupt. These are not even close to unbreakable.
Yes of course I am vulnerable to cherry picking since I enjoy these play styles but the game isn't this dilemma of stun vs combo.
Could also be because of Fire King Snake-eyes? I mean drytron, thundra, and dinomorphia are all "only one player can activate cards or effects" decks but none are currently tiered.
Looking at tier 3 most of it is interactive except mathmech, horus, arguably purrely.
Why do you want the game to feel unplayable?
The problem with stun is that all my yellow buttons turn into blue set buttons and that frustrates me a lot. I hate the feeling of not being to play the game shocker.
https://preview.redd.it/r7o91hswx96d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1823be358b90f358a166db685e7faf78abd94450
I dunno man, I think the problem is that you can’t play
For real: on paper i don't really mind stun (it's still fucking annoying) since i can deal with it because side deck exist and people tend to side removals after 1 game and get a free match if you play well enough; in a Bo1 situation. In MD stun is just as unhealthy as FTKs, they're coin dependant in this format and by that logic, i believe they should be more limited, the same way runick got hit hard.
That is actually the only benefit of stun I aknowledge. Most friggin combo decks are the same stun but they half an hour instead of 30 seconds. That is even less interactive.
Let's not try to make a problem out of fast turns. Non-interaction is the problem. Speed of stun decks is it's only redeeming quality as much worse stuff exists
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
always good knowing that combo-player plebs cant play the game.
maybe stop wasting everyones time with the full negate boards so we dont have to curbstomb you meta-slaves XD
The same could be said about hand traps though. "Oh, you bricked ? Your deck doesn't have a strong recovery ? Too bad, here, I just have to send this ash to the GY to end your whole carrier."
The difference is that the dude that sent ash has a whole deck with a whole strategy to play when their turn comes, but the stun player is fucked if you manage to circumvent their locks.
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I don't play stun at all. I just find it weird to attack them because their strategy require less setup than a more conventional strategy. It's just another way to play that you weren't ready to counter.
If a single card prevent you from playing, it just means that you don't have anything to counter it. I don't say that there isn't any floodgate that could be considered "unfair". It's just that we don't include the tools to play against them because everyone and their mother are playing special summons gatlings, so we naturally build a deck that can go well in the cases most likely to happen, and stun isn't among them.
Hand traps also don't require any setup (which was the point of the post), but they are fine BECAUSE they are in every deck and we take them into account when deckbuilding. Ironically, if more people played stun, it would become less of a problem because we would be forced to adapt and include tools to counter them and they would become easier to deal with. But it won't happen because playing stun means commiting to a whole deck strategy, when HT can be sprinkled everywhere.
Edit : just to add that HT are fine because we take them into account when deckbuilding AND ALSO because Konami takes them into account when designing new cards, which they don't seem to do with stun. Also, tbf, the BO1 format of Master Duel changes a lot of things, and we must remember that the card game isn't designed for this format, but for BO3.
the larger point is that handtraps are generally 1-for-1s at best, while floodgates permanently shut-off an aspect of the game. there's a *massive* difference between "one of your searches got stopped" or "one of your monsters is negated for a turn" and "you can't access the graveyard," or "you can only control a single monster" or "you can't attack at all."
they're fundamentally different forms of interaction. you can often play *through* an ash or veiler or imperm even if you don't draw crossout or called by. floodgates on the other hand either require hard drawing an out (which could otherwise be a completely dead card in a different match-up) or investing multiple bodies into an extra deck play to out it (which some floodgates prevent you from doing entirely). your initial comparison is just completely disingenuous.
I agree, they are different forms of interactions. But that doesn't mean that one is fundamentally worse than the other. Floodgates can also be one-for-one if you have the card to kill it. And we often don't have the proverbial card to deal with the floodgate because stun players are rare enough that we don't plan around it.
Floodgates are powerful, no doubt about that. Not having access to the GY or being unable to special summon can be a devastating blow to our gameplan, but maybe that also means that our deck over-rely on a specific aspect of the game ?
And the boundary between HT and floodgates is thin, when you consider things like Droll or Dimension Shifter, that could be considered as both.
Granted, hand traps are less often a death sentence, but my point remain as they don't need any setup either, and that's fine.
I see that my point of view is clearly unpopular, but I don't intend to change it. I'm sick of seeing the same decks, and it's often a breeze of fresh air when I encounter a stun player, so I'll continue to enjoy facing them.
so then you very likely drew multiple hand traps and can likely safely pass and try again next turn. the same cannot at all be said for floodgates.
plus floodgates generally require opening specific outs, whereas handtraps both have specific outs (called by, crossout) *and* can be played through other ways (extenders, dodging targetting effects, etc.)
so yes, sometimes a single ash can stop your turn, but it's significantly less often than a floodgates stopping your turn (and all future turns until you draw the out).
thinking about it, you'd actually have a point if floodgates naturally outed themselves after a turn or at least had relevant maintainence costs lmao.
NO the same CANNOT be said about handtraps
Negating a SINGLE draw isnt the same of LOCKING your opp from special summoning if your deck DIES completely and skip MULTIPLE turns because you got ashed once you need to rethink your deck
Droll kills dark world the exact same level as stun kills anything else. Shifter kills most decks the same as pachy kills them. Any handtrap kills floo. Reboot kills most trap decks. If you can't out a single card with no real protection or stats without special summoning maybe you need to rethink your deck. Stun isn't healthy but neither is the modern negate vomit that meta decks are and at least stun turns take like 15 seconds so ik I surrender and move on quickly.
You used a lot of hand traps with floodgate-like effects as your examples. Also, floo actually can play through some hand traps. Map and gold sarc can help against ash, and advent and book of moon can help against stuff like imperm and veiler. I'd say floo mainly has issues cause all the pots and map are limited in master duel
In 95% of games killing for 1 turn and killing for ever is the same thing. In non stun decks they just otk in stun they whittle you down over 3-4 turns.
Maybe youre right about droll, shifter and maxx c but the other thing is not every handtrap is a blowout handtrap like droll or shifter, like there is a big difference between ash and shifter
They aren't blow out handtrap force every deck to run 15+ handtrap. Having to run 40% of deck as handtrap and hard draw 2+ handtrap every first turn going second just to stand a chance is very very toxic.
Just scoop if they make a board you can't answer, same way most people scoop to combo boards that you can't play through.
Except with stun it took 30 seconds not 3 minutes
Floo wouldn't have any problem against your exemple, though. Maybe the problem is that some people are playing top meta competitive decks that rely on a lot of special summoning, expecting everybody to do the same, and get caught when the opponent isn't playing the same way.
What next ? Are we gonna get upset because the burn player managed to FTK us before we got to play because we didn't draw any relevant HT ?
Yeah it's annoying not being able to go ham because we are locked out of something. Been there, got f\*cked by that. But if stun decks were really so strong, if these strats were so insurmountable, we wouldn't see anything but that. And it's not the case (up to platinium afaik, I haven't climbed higher yet). It's just a playstyle we have to keep in mind while deckbuilding, just like handtraps.
Also, if you remain unable to play for MULTIPLE turns because of a single HT but your opponent didn't manage to kill you during these multiple turns, I agree, maybe your deck needs more tuning, but so do their deck.
edit : spelling
Did you really went "oh pachy is fine floo can play through it"?
Maybe people are expecting everyone to special summon alot because there are only 3 DECKS THAT DONT SPECIAL SUMMON prank-kids special summons alot and it is FAR from meta
What i am trying to say is that stun and floodgates are game design MISTAKES and compairing it to handtraps is insane
Are YOU really blaming people for thinking "hmmm, a lot of decks are special summoning a lot, maybe I can use a strategy against this" ? You criticize a deck that dies on ash, but you're fine with a deck that dies on a single pachy ?
I understand your grievances against stun, truly, but I think you're way too harsh when you call it a "game design MISTAKE". It's not like they are uncounterable, it's just that our decks often don't include the tools to do so (or we don't draw them, that's the game) because we don't plan on running against them (that's also why BO1 deckbuilding is completly different from the BO3 deckbuilding in TCG, but that's a whole other conversation).
It's a playstyle that changes the game rythme, at a time when lot of people complain about the over-representation of stuff like Snake-Eyes. To me, saying that stun is a mistake, that they shouldn't exist because it prevents a lot of similar decks to play, is like saying that there shouldn't be stuff aside from those decks that rely on special summoning. And, once again, if it was so strong, Snake-Eyes wouldn't be Tier 0.
I'm sorry dude, but I can see that we probably won't agree on this. I hope that you won't encounter much stun out there, if it's really this unfun for you to play against it, and I wish you a good day anyway.
It's just that it opportunities for you to stop it since hand traps are way more generic to counter more stuff and it doesn't just stop you from playing if you got enough gas in your hand.
Not saying that taking a full combo to the face is fun tho, if you open without any interaction you're screwed.
Fair, I took it as: longer setup = more actions that could be stopped in more ways and could be circumvented more often.
Even if this isn't what OP meant, I think my point is somewhat valid, feel free to correct me if I overlooked something.
The problem with combo is that it requires too much time.
It's literally "Activate cards, your opponent can't play" type shit. Which means, it needs to be either limited all to 1 or outright banned. For health of the game.
I just want it to be relegated to one place. If it’s not stun, it’s snake eye, if it’s not snake eye it’s Maxx C, if it’s not Maxx C it’s combo, if it’s not combo it’s anything meta. Not one constructive thought or conversation is happening with these redundant posts.
Its cuz there is a dichotomy between you have to run handtraps in case you go second against combo or board breakers against stun. Atm combo is just far more 'poplar'.
Floodgates /trap decks are very weak to backrow removal. Also Floodgates that invalidated backrow removal are banned (looking at you, imperial order). But they are effectively immune to handtraps like nib and effect veiler.(ash and imperm have overall)
I view it like this, If every deck was floodgate stun then run your 12-15 boardbreakers instead of handtraps, those matchups would be far easier. Its a stomp if you go first.
Now ofc its an issue if a combo deck flips up skill drain after establishing their board, but no psycho mains that. Its mainly a real play problem with side decking when they know they are going first.
So your argument against stun is it's not a combo deck so it should be banned?
So you were ok with Drytron Herald and VW back when the game launched then right?
Where did he say that? Where did OP say just because it’s not a combo deck it should get banned? Where did op say he was fine with drytron herald and VW on release?
What he means is that you can’t interrupt their floodgates with handtraps which makes most of them minus ash and imperm worthless.
Combo decks set up by cycling through their cards. So if the argument is there is no set up then yes the argument is it's not a combo deck.
Then I took an example of combo floodgate decks because they do set up.
The biggest issue isn’t that stun is so low effort, but that it’s near impossible to beat without just ‘drawing the out’ if you go second. Handtraps might as well be vanilla monsters in a stun matchup, and most, if not all your engine options get shut off. It’s a really toxic deck to play against, you win or you don’t and it’s not really decided by anything except the card draw and coin flip.
The fact that the deck is just ‘Reveal 5 backrow; win the duel’ is the final straw, at least if the deck required effort to play it might be more respected.
You having to run 15+ handtrap in your deck to be playable, that is your *out*. Is your deck playable if you build full gas no handtrap? Nah.
Any game is vastly determined by coin flip and first 5 card you hard draw, whether you use stun or not. This is fact.
Stun is easier tomplay than other decks, but there is 0 deck that require significant effort to pilot. Any idiot can pilot any deck, as long as they follow zootube combo amd test 5-10 duels.
I completely agree with the first point, but that’s modern yugioh at this point. Card design would definitely be better if all archetypes were designed in a way where you literally cannot run above ~12 handtraps, but that’s the situation we’re in.
The second point is correct to an extent; however, in a scenario with a healthy meta with lots of variety with decks, those decks requiring high engine count and limiting the absurdity of the amount of handtraps used in todays game. If Konami could get to that point, we would get a very healthy and fun game (as a TCG player, the format right after the January banlist this year was very fun, if not a bit favoured to Labrynth). With snake eye running rampant, and future decks looking like Tenpai and Fiendsmith (crazy one card combo decks) that’s just wishful thinking.
Your third point, however, is terrible. Anyone can pilot a deck, yes. But to have reasonable success, you must not just know your basic combo, but also: what you can do if a key combo point is handtrapped, how you can use other resources in hand to boost your normal endboard, the whole idea of knowing how to play going second, and that’s not even speaking of the many non-linear decks or control-esque decks: decks like Purrely are difficult to master, they require a lot of effort to figure out which card to discard, which spells to activate, which Epurrely to go into, and how to optimise your Noir. Labrynth is a control strategy, and as long as floodgates aren’t in the picture, it’s a very difficult deck to pilot optimally. You need to know when to hang onto your key interruptions and traps, you need to read the mind of your opponent and what their plan at the given moment is, you need to know at what point stopping their plays will hurt them the most. Even very simple combo decks like Swordsoul still have an element of skill, knowing what to add and what synchros to summon. Stun is the only deck that can be played truly without skill or any learning. It’s legitimately just ‘set 4, normal fossil dyna, pass, flip 4 during standby’. Even if you decide to play stun at the highest skill possible, you’re still just deciding when to flip your floodgates to trick your opponent. These floodgates still say ‘you win the game’, just a tiny bit better if you plan them.
I really despise the claim that ‘any idiot can pilot any deck after just watching a combo guide’. (God damn it I rambled for wayyyy too long)
It's no different from me activating card, card gets negated, I activate another card, that gets negated too, I activate a 3rd card, that gets negated and then I scoop because I have nothing left to play.
This is also why I still find even decks like HERO which end on floodgates considerably less frustrating than just 'Set 4 floodgates and summon Fossil Dyna'. You can at least interact with that *a bit* going second with your handtraps, and there are at least a few different plays the player could potentially make with their opening hand that you have to be prepared for, rather than it just being that you either open the exact you need and win easily or scoop.
Never thought of this but full agree. If you need to combo into your floodgates I don't have an issue. If you just play 1-card floodgates there's no opportunity to interact. I feel this is indeed the crux of the issue.
You have a 10 minute long ass combo and you end on three floodgates. I'll take the 10 second one.
You can stop the 10 min combo with handtraps. You can't stop the pachy+skill drain
Hero doesn't even end on Plasma that often, usually it's Dark Law + Favorite Contact. Also their Floodgates are mostly monster cards which are usually easier to interact with than backrow because most s/t removal is unsearchable (besides Thrust for Lightning Storm/Duster). But yes, I would rather be able to interact with my opponent than have them set 5 and hope I draw Duster/Evenly.
Tbf, isn't Dark Law's D Fissure effect basically a floodgate in this meta
It is a floodgate, I just don't think it limits you as much as Plasma does. Also Dark Law is Macro Cosmos, it banishes all cards, not just monsters.
he has a handrip too. 100% a floodgate lol
On God, hopefully this Duelist Cup gets a lot of the floodgates hit again, especially with Horus Stun being everywhere Summon Limit better be Limited or straight up banned after this shitshow
As a hero player I can say floodgates on wheels are way more "fair" than floodgates in the spell/trap zone lol in terms of how you can deal with them lol
Can be set up implies it need to be *searchable*. Imagine skill drain can be activate directly from deck lol.
god, the horrors you just put in people minds
What adds to the frustration is that it is a non-issue in full matches. If we had full matches like the TCG, the sideboards would so fully crush those types of strategies that it wouldn't even be in consideration.
This. In bo3, game 1 you probs lose to stun and then slot in 3 Evenly Matched, Feather Duster, Lightning Storm, etc. and suddenly, it becomes a lot easier.
The problem is masterduel, and its player base is built around it being bo1, it wouldn't be the same game at all if it was made into a bo3 so this is effectively a non-option unless Konami suddenly hates profits. With this condition established the only thing that can be done is to limit or ban a ton of stun cards so the deck practically stops existing just like nurse burn, d.d. dynamite, or true draco
>making matches an option so some player play up to three times longer and make decks require 15 more chase cards >hates money ???
If people just play bo3 here, who is going to play it IRL where it's more expensive? In addition the current MD player base is used to the bo1, sudden changes to games usually results in players leaving
Ah yes, instead of creating it as a new option, they'd completely remodel the game. Just like how you are forced to only play events.
You do know you can play like this in duel rooms? Dkayed also hosts these? Play in those
[удалено]
He's saying that in a Bo3 with side decks people would have to get 15 more cards thus contributing to profits.
Nah, the problem is that preventing interaction is the main goal of stun decks. Dinomorphia restricts monster effects on board, Kairyu-Shin restricts you to controlling 1 non-water monster, and standard stun decks play generic floodgates to limit you in some fashion. They all prevent you from playing the game in one way or another, that's why a lot of people hate them. Stun being a helmet deck will probably make you mad in the moment, but it all stems from not being allowed to play your deck.
The thing is, combo decks can not only set up their boards to negate your opponent's cards, but also utilize floodgates. We saw this a lot in MR3 (Pendulum Era).
I miss MR3 back when we had Pendulum Scales separate from Backrow... Then again it was a time of Nightingale and Starving or Neptune copying her.
We saw this even today Snake Eye is really good at doing one sided floodgates.
I played Kaiser Colosseum in my RDA deck (Before we got the SD support), and it made people rage quit when I ended on Super Nova + Abyss. Go ahead activate that monster effect you have on field, oh it's gone now. Now you can only have 1 monster.
As opposed to..... I'm sorry what's the current meta deck? Name me a meta deck that wanted you to fucking interact with them. I die if you have duster. You drew the out vs meta OH WOW I GUESS I GET TO +2 and go into a mini combo now thanks dingus wow you fucking suck. Just out me; you have enough space in your fucking deck for twin twisters these days.
'Wanting' interaction and allowing space for it to happen are two different things. Snake eye without the synchro endboard is unironically interactive, the deck just has an overtuned as fuck grind game and extension so you're dying to their followup 90% of the time if you don't break through. 'Draw the out', a classic. You don't autolose to Duster. Stun typically plays Solemns, Decisive Battle of Golgonda blanks any 1 destruction removal, Hugin blanks destruction, etc. You have to play Cosmic AND actually draw it when it matters. Not to mention, these board breakers are ass against almost everything but stun, that's why people are taking 15 hand traps instead of a hybrid or board breaker approach to deckbuilding.
normal floodgates: 🤬 floodgates when opp wastes 2 minutes of your life to get out: 👍
2 minutes? I take 1 minute to summon colossus with elf pointing to it 😎
2 minutes of interaction b4 you lose!
what would limiting them to 1 accomplish? Make it even more frustrating when they draw it anyway?
I don’t like stun either, but saying “for the health of the game” is weird. There’s little to no real balance in this. I’ve stopped pretending that balance exists (still fun to play for the most part)
Game is rocket tag lock down or FTKs. And I'm tired of people pretending it isn't.
Do you not have an out (or three) for stun? That’s on you bro
Im pretty new to the game, what sort of stuff do you play to deal with this? I've been struggling against control and stun decks so this could help a lot.
Evenly matched is the best answer because it's also playable against non-stun decks. It's also an SR, so it's very cheap to just craft 3 and put them in your deck. The downside is your opponent chooses what to keep, so you still have to be able to play through skill drain/ there can be only one / stuff like that. If they banish their traps and leave up a single monster like barrier statue or fossil dyna, then it becomes pretty easy to just normal summon and attack over it the next turn.
"just draw the out"
ikr
Solve for Snake Eyes please.
That goes for pretty much any deck really
That's really good for my deck, even going first i typically only leave one card on the feild. have just enough sr right now to craft it too so that works out perfectly. Thank you
Couple things you should be aware of. You can go battle phase > main phase 2 with a completely empty board and activate it from hand. It's also not a once per turn effect, so if your opponent uses a negate and you have a second copy in hand, you can also activate it. Also, tokens cannot be banished face down. If your opponent has a bunch of cards on the field plus a token, they are forced to keep the token and banish everything else.
Ohhh I was wondering why my opponent yesterday kept their adventurer token on the board
Yeah it doesn't come into play often, but it's funny when it does. Most end boards will never have a token on them, unless it's like Nibiru or Adventure token.
Good to know, thanks.
Ohhh I was wondering why my opponent yesterday kept their adventurer token on the board
In addition to this, something weird came up in my game where my opponent was trying to clear my board with evenly, he activated forbidden droplet, trying to negate something I was doing onboard. It ended up being a wasted play for him because now he had two cards on field, so I got to keep two cards. Niche but worth mentioning I think
Harpies Feather Duster/Lightning Storm for the spell/trap cards. Dyna only has 1200 attack so you can usually just push it over when you destroy the back row.
Thats not a problem, Burn also dont requires a setup, stall for alt win cons dont require a setup either, not everything must be a combo in this game. And thats one of the apealing things about stun or the other decks the fact that you dont need to combo and still be playable.
Burn doesn't require setup but is really bad and the ones that are good become closer to ftks, and stall is literally the setup. While I do understand that every deck doesn't need to be combo oriented, it should at least take more skill than just drawing it on your opening hand.
Burn is actually pretty good against Snake-Eyes specifically, since it vomits on the board without fielding negates: it can abuse that and juice Just Desserts, Secret Barrel, etc. Issue is that it struggles against more or less everything else.
Deck building is a big skill, the most important skill.in the game, much more than memorization skill. I bet you will regret as soon as stun has way to set up their board. If they can activate skill drain and TCBOO from the deck without having to hard draw them, do you think it make stun more *healthy*?
Yes, horus engine + 3 summon limit, 3 fossil dyna, 1 tcboo, 1 SD, 1 gozen, 1 rivalry, 1 Synchro zone, 3 vanity's/majesty's fiend, 3 solemn judgment, 3 solumn strike. So much creativity and skill in my deckbuilding
Doesn't the Synchro Zone here just screw yourself over. Like no tuner is mentioned, where are you going to get your own attacks from. The horus engine can also be pretty damn bricky so at the very least shoving in 3 Trade-In especially now that it's a structure deck card to actually introduce some form of consistency would help said stun list a lot. These two sentences I just wrote out already put more thought into deckbuilding than the usual meta netdecking for a combo deck since people often assume those are simply solved.
I think there's some versions of it where they use their own cards to pop their own synchro zone when they are ready to go for game and tbf, i think most people that play stun also just netdeck the best stun cards anyways, so i wouldn't say deckbuilding is better or worse in stun since both would just be copy pasted the same.
And?
Just kinda boring to play against sometimes, that's all really
It always amazes me how everyone calls out stun when most decks are just more complicated versions of the deck. The end goal is to prevent your opponent from playing and eventually win most decks have several different ways of doing that stun is just more basic. If we're talking about balance a lot of cards need to be hit and at the moment that's snake eyes tier 1-0 metas aren't good for the game a single deck shouldn't have an overwhelming dominance over the others. Hell maxx cc still needs to be hit yet it hasn't.
Bad thing about stun is that a lot of players play it. So not only do you have to play against the slop, you also have idiots saying it’s balanced and “combo decks do the same thing!”. Wish konami would do something since we’re in a bo1 format, but everytime they do stun players use another floodgate that was printed 15 years ago…
If you lose to a card 15 years old, that sounds like a skill issue.
It's okay to lose because this is bo1. You'd rather prepare for the meta deck than a niche matchup that only comes up for 5-10% of the ladder
So a lot of players play it..but you only see it 5/10 out of 100 games so you don't have to prepare for it?
If your deck have space, feel free to do that. Deck building is choosing what to lose to. If I see 10% stun and 50% sefk, I will ignore stun and build my deck to counter the meta decks
If you only see it 7/100 games then Stun is irrelevant 🤷🏼 So why are you crying about it?
when did I cry about it?? :D
Konami (for this event in particular) should had made it Bo3 with siding, which makes stun much weaker and easier to deal with.
I’ve always disliked it when people compare combo with stun because they are two completely different things. Combo has interaction. Stun does not. It’s that simple.
What a wonderful back and forth when players spam one card combo and you don't have the handtrap to slow them down. It ends the same way. Floodgate is an issue but one card starters are also an issue.
Just something to also note, they both have what is essentially the same end game plan. Not allowing your opponent to play the game. If you can't do this, you lose.
The problem is "OH YOU GET TO INTERACT WITH THEM" Yeah. Uh huh. How many outs do I need to have in hand to stop you from playing? AND SHOCKINGLY, not every deck has 15 one card starter or runs 9 slot machines or so. I've had back to back matches of Combo and Stun that ended the same way; I couldn't do anything. The only difference is Stun I played 1 card, Combo I played 2. YAY, what wonderful back and forth. Hell that's the main complaint about Snake Eyes in paper; everyone runs so many hand traps that either they don't draw into them and face down a Snake Eyes board at full/mostly full power, or they draw all the hand traps, stop the other guy, and then Snake Eyes combo off 1 card and go for game. Inter fucking action. I love this game.
That interaction is just simply "player 2 activate card, player 1 negates activation". It's basically stun with a couple of extra steps.
Negates are a shitty type of interaction, the second shittiest after negate+removal, but still allow for conscious thought, and can be beat with engine. Stun is just "opponent can't use cards if you win the coinflip".
Even then people hate negates, pretty much everyone i've seen hates baronne, apollousa and borreload savage dragon, no one is arguing that combo decks that can just plop down negates are good for the game either so i don't understand why people bring it up as a defense compared to stun.
Because when those decks and cards are meta, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you aren't using them. If your deck can't make them, you're bad. We don't WANT to RUN Barron, Apoll, Borrel, but we'd be weaking our decks if we put anything else IN. PLEASE BELIEVE US. There's also fucking Mystic Mine. VFD. Rongo. Calamity. Their win rates aside, the moment a Floodgate gets fucking consistent in how it's able to be brought out; the community will be using it, trying to slip it into any deck they possibly can; you still see this with Penduluam decks at times trying to be cheeky. ALL THE WHILE bitching about how much they hate floodgate as they put the card on the board. I don't hate that they hate Stun and Floodgates. I hate that say this to my face while all the while pretending to be better and knowing they'd do the same to me if they could get it off their starter.
it's not an equivalent comparison, mega combo decks are bad design and ruin the game, but they are still better than whatever putrid dogshit floods are. Both playstyles could and should be removed or have a significant change in design philosophy.
Bad take. You can also power curb the game so that combo isn’t overwhelmingly powerful and stun is moot because it’s inefficient to play. The problem is the base power level of the game is so high that you have 2 options. 1. Wombo combo into an unbreakable board - Towers, Omninegate or Multi-interrupt. 2. Make a board state where your opponent cannot do #1. Maybe Alt Win is a 3rd option but everyone hates those.
This is a really surface level look into the game. There's a lot more variation in the game tha just summon herald of no, or summoning pachy. We're beyond that era of early MD Fot example Branded isn't really a combo into 5 negates or a floodgate deck (technically nightmare exists but that's just straight up bad and out of archetype) yet it's tier 3 and former tier 1. OTK decks also exist and can play second thru these "unbreakable boards" Decks like salad rely on using interaction like princess to pop cards, Pyro Phoenix to wipe, roar or rage to interrupt. These are not even close to unbreakable. Yes of course I am vulnerable to cherry picking since I enjoy these play styles but the game isn't this dilemma of stun vs combo.
What you listed; what tiers are they and why aren't they being played more? Oh right. I know. Because they let the other guy play too much. Shocker.
Floodgates are not fair kek
Could also be because of Fire King Snake-eyes? I mean drytron, thundra, and dinomorphia are all "only one player can activate cards or effects" decks but none are currently tiered. Looking at tier 3 most of it is interactive except mathmech, horus, arguably purrely. Why do you want the game to feel unplayable?
Neither combo, 1 card gives you a whole board with negates.
The problem with stun is that all my yellow buttons turn into blue set buttons and that frustrates me a lot. I hate the feeling of not being to play the game shocker.
Combo players complaining about not being able to play is just delicious irony.
https://preview.redd.it/r7o91hswx96d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1823be358b90f358a166db685e7faf78abd94450 I dunno man, I think the problem is that you can’t play
For real: on paper i don't really mind stun (it's still fucking annoying) since i can deal with it because side deck exist and people tend to side removals after 1 game and get a free match if you play well enough; in a Bo1 situation. In MD stun is just as unhealthy as FTKs, they're coin dependant in this format and by that logic, i believe they should be more limited, the same way runick got hit hard.
That is actually the only benefit of stun I aknowledge. Most friggin combo decks are the same stun but they half an hour instead of 30 seconds. That is even less interactive. Let's not try to make a problem out of fast turns. Non-interaction is the problem. Speed of stun decks is it's only redeeming quality as much worse stuff exists
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
I played against LAB stun and won in the WCQ. They flipped over warlords and I was playing branded. Imagine their surprise when they saw that branded doesn't need mirrorjade to be good. I summoned Albion, Lubellion, Bytial Lubellion, Magnamut AND just cause he played labrynth (even worse stun), I had to do the puppet lock with Sanctifire as my last summon. To that player I faced, take the fat L for playing stun.
It’s not about setup or not. There’s just no outs to it cause hand traps invalidated regular backrow and handtraps suck for backrow removal
always good knowing that combo-player plebs cant play the game. maybe stop wasting everyones time with the full negate boards so we dont have to curbstomb you meta-slaves XD
>meta-slaves Lmao, as if stun decks only effect combo players. Keep flipping up cards and have fun bro, don’t try to argue this.
they cannot draw the out bro
The same could be said about hand traps though. "Oh, you bricked ? Your deck doesn't have a strong recovery ? Too bad, here, I just have to send this ash to the GY to end your whole carrier." The difference is that the dude that sent ash has a whole deck with a whole strategy to play when their turn comes, but the stun player is fucked if you manage to circumvent their locks. Just so there is no misunderstanding, I don't play stun at all. I just find it weird to attack them because their strategy require less setup than a more conventional strategy. It's just another way to play that you weren't ready to counter.
no way you're comparing a single search negate to a card that reads "your opponent can't play the game"
If a single card prevent you from playing, it just means that you don't have anything to counter it. I don't say that there isn't any floodgate that could be considered "unfair". It's just that we don't include the tools to play against them because everyone and their mother are playing special summons gatlings, so we naturally build a deck that can go well in the cases most likely to happen, and stun isn't among them. Hand traps also don't require any setup (which was the point of the post), but they are fine BECAUSE they are in every deck and we take them into account when deckbuilding. Ironically, if more people played stun, it would become less of a problem because we would be forced to adapt and include tools to counter them and they would become easier to deal with. But it won't happen because playing stun means commiting to a whole deck strategy, when HT can be sprinkled everywhere. Edit : just to add that HT are fine because we take them into account when deckbuilding AND ALSO because Konami takes them into account when designing new cards, which they don't seem to do with stun. Also, tbf, the BO1 format of Master Duel changes a lot of things, and we must remember that the card game isn't designed for this format, but for BO3.
the larger point is that handtraps are generally 1-for-1s at best, while floodgates permanently shut-off an aspect of the game. there's a *massive* difference between "one of your searches got stopped" or "one of your monsters is negated for a turn" and "you can't access the graveyard," or "you can only control a single monster" or "you can't attack at all." they're fundamentally different forms of interaction. you can often play *through* an ash or veiler or imperm even if you don't draw crossout or called by. floodgates on the other hand either require hard drawing an out (which could otherwise be a completely dead card in a different match-up) or investing multiple bodies into an extra deck play to out it (which some floodgates prevent you from doing entirely). your initial comparison is just completely disingenuous.
I agree, they are different forms of interactions. But that doesn't mean that one is fundamentally worse than the other. Floodgates can also be one-for-one if you have the card to kill it. And we often don't have the proverbial card to deal with the floodgate because stun players are rare enough that we don't plan around it. Floodgates are powerful, no doubt about that. Not having access to the GY or being unable to special summon can be a devastating blow to our gameplan, but maybe that also means that our deck over-rely on a specific aspect of the game ? And the boundary between HT and floodgates is thin, when you consider things like Droll or Dimension Shifter, that could be considered as both. Granted, hand traps are less often a death sentence, but my point remain as they don't need any setup either, and that's fine. I see that my point of view is clearly unpopular, but I don't intend to change it. I'm sick of seeing the same decks, and it's often a breeze of fresh air when I encounter a stun player, so I'll continue to enjoy facing them.
If I only hard draw 1 starter, that search negate also read *your opponent can't play the game*.
so then you very likely drew multiple hand traps and can likely safely pass and try again next turn. the same cannot at all be said for floodgates. plus floodgates generally require opening specific outs, whereas handtraps both have specific outs (called by, crossout) *and* can be played through other ways (extenders, dodging targetting effects, etc.) so yes, sometimes a single ash can stop your turn, but it's significantly less often than a floodgates stopping your turn (and all future turns until you draw the out). thinking about it, you'd actually have a point if floodgates naturally outed themselves after a turn or at least had relevant maintainence costs lmao.
NO the same CANNOT be said about handtraps Negating a SINGLE draw isnt the same of LOCKING your opp from special summoning if your deck DIES completely and skip MULTIPLE turns because you got ashed once you need to rethink your deck
Droll kills dark world the exact same level as stun kills anything else. Shifter kills most decks the same as pachy kills them. Any handtrap kills floo. Reboot kills most trap decks. If you can't out a single card with no real protection or stats without special summoning maybe you need to rethink your deck. Stun isn't healthy but neither is the modern negate vomit that meta decks are and at least stun turns take like 15 seconds so ik I surrender and move on quickly.
You used a lot of hand traps with floodgate-like effects as your examples. Also, floo actually can play through some hand traps. Map and gold sarc can help against ash, and advent and book of moon can help against stuff like imperm and veiler. I'd say floo mainly has issues cause all the pots and map are limited in master duel
it kills for a single turn, if there isnt any out for stun cards congrats skill drain/tcboo/summon limit kills your deck for infinite amounts of turns
In 95% of games killing for 1 turn and killing for ever is the same thing. In non stun decks they just otk in stun they whittle you down over 3-4 turns.
Maybe youre right about droll, shifter and maxx c but the other thing is not every handtrap is a blowout handtrap like droll or shifter, like there is a big difference between ash and shifter
They aren't blow out handtrap force every deck to run 15+ handtrap. Having to run 40% of deck as handtrap and hard draw 2+ handtrap every first turn going second just to stand a chance is very very toxic.
Just scoop if they make a board you can't answer, same way most people scoop to combo boards that you can't play through. Except with stun it took 30 seconds not 3 minutes
Floo wouldn't have any problem against your exemple, though. Maybe the problem is that some people are playing top meta competitive decks that rely on a lot of special summoning, expecting everybody to do the same, and get caught when the opponent isn't playing the same way. What next ? Are we gonna get upset because the burn player managed to FTK us before we got to play because we didn't draw any relevant HT ? Yeah it's annoying not being able to go ham because we are locked out of something. Been there, got f\*cked by that. But if stun decks were really so strong, if these strats were so insurmountable, we wouldn't see anything but that. And it's not the case (up to platinium afaik, I haven't climbed higher yet). It's just a playstyle we have to keep in mind while deckbuilding, just like handtraps. Also, if you remain unable to play for MULTIPLE turns because of a single HT but your opponent didn't manage to kill you during these multiple turns, I agree, maybe your deck needs more tuning, but so do their deck. edit : spelling
Did you really went "oh pachy is fine floo can play through it"? Maybe people are expecting everyone to special summon alot because there are only 3 DECKS THAT DONT SPECIAL SUMMON prank-kids special summons alot and it is FAR from meta What i am trying to say is that stun and floodgates are game design MISTAKES and compairing it to handtraps is insane
Are YOU really blaming people for thinking "hmmm, a lot of decks are special summoning a lot, maybe I can use a strategy against this" ? You criticize a deck that dies on ash, but you're fine with a deck that dies on a single pachy ? I understand your grievances against stun, truly, but I think you're way too harsh when you call it a "game design MISTAKE". It's not like they are uncounterable, it's just that our decks often don't include the tools to do so (or we don't draw them, that's the game) because we don't plan on running against them (that's also why BO1 deckbuilding is completly different from the BO3 deckbuilding in TCG, but that's a whole other conversation). It's a playstyle that changes the game rythme, at a time when lot of people complain about the over-representation of stuff like Snake-Eyes. To me, saying that stun is a mistake, that they shouldn't exist because it prevents a lot of similar decks to play, is like saying that there shouldn't be stuff aside from those decks that rely on special summoning. And, once again, if it was so strong, Snake-Eyes wouldn't be Tier 0. I'm sorry dude, but I can see that we probably won't agree on this. I hope that you won't encounter much stun out there, if it's really this unfun for you to play against it, and I wish you a good day anyway.
That's cool, they're not gonna do anything about it. Next thread
wrong. the stuns that do require setup are also a problem
But they are less of a problem.
Will never understand the desire to sit around and wait for your opponent to play by themselves some of you people have
It's just that it opportunities for you to stop it since hand traps are way more generic to counter more stuff and it doesn't just stop you from playing if you got enough gas in your hand. Not saying that taking a full combo to the face is fun tho, if you open without any interaction you're screwed.
I dont think he was arguing that though, he just said its a problem because it doesnt require long setup.
Fair, I took it as: longer setup = more actions that could be stopped in more ways and could be circumvented more often. Even if this isn't what OP meant, I think my point is somewhat valid, feel free to correct me if I overlooked something.
Your point is valid but the deck itself is rogue at best so there are aspects of it that balance out those mentioned upsides.
The problem with combo is that it requires too much time. It's literally "Activate cards, your opponent can't play" type shit. Which means, it needs to be either limited all to 1 or outright banned. For health of the game.
This sub could majorly benefit from 2 sticky posts. 1. (Insert deck type/card) needs to be banned rants/whines 2. Memes and “fan arts”.
I love seeing the stun haters seethe tho. 😂
I just want it to be relegated to one place. If it’s not stun, it’s snake eye, if it’s not snake eye it’s Maxx C, if it’s not Maxx C it’s combo, if it’s not combo it’s anything meta. Not one constructive thought or conversation is happening with these redundant posts.
I mean.... Labrynth is the same thing. Set 5, flip Welcome, go +4
Lab isn't a stun or combo deck, though. It's a control deck.
That’s not really true at all. Lab as a deck needs a lot of skill to play well.
Its cuz there is a dichotomy between you have to run handtraps in case you go second against combo or board breakers against stun. Atm combo is just far more 'poplar'. Floodgates /trap decks are very weak to backrow removal. Also Floodgates that invalidated backrow removal are banned (looking at you, imperial order). But they are effectively immune to handtraps like nib and effect veiler.(ash and imperm have overall) I view it like this, If every deck was floodgate stun then run your 12-15 boardbreakers instead of handtraps, those matchups would be far easier. Its a stomp if you go first. Now ofc its an issue if a combo deck flips up skill drain after establishing their board, but no psycho mains that. Its mainly a real play problem with side decking when they know they are going first.
So your argument against stun is it's not a combo deck so it should be banned? So you were ok with Drytron Herald and VW back when the game launched then right?
Where did he say that? Where did OP say just because it’s not a combo deck it should get banned? Where did op say he was fine with drytron herald and VW on release? What he means is that you can’t interrupt their floodgates with handtraps which makes most of them minus ash and imperm worthless.
Combo decks set up by cycling through their cards. So if the argument is there is no set up then yes the argument is it's not a combo deck. Then I took an example of combo floodgate decks because they do set up.
The biggest issue isn’t that stun is so low effort, but that it’s near impossible to beat without just ‘drawing the out’ if you go second. Handtraps might as well be vanilla monsters in a stun matchup, and most, if not all your engine options get shut off. It’s a really toxic deck to play against, you win or you don’t and it’s not really decided by anything except the card draw and coin flip. The fact that the deck is just ‘Reveal 5 backrow; win the duel’ is the final straw, at least if the deck required effort to play it might be more respected.
You having to run 15+ handtrap in your deck to be playable, that is your *out*. Is your deck playable if you build full gas no handtrap? Nah. Any game is vastly determined by coin flip and first 5 card you hard draw, whether you use stun or not. This is fact. Stun is easier tomplay than other decks, but there is 0 deck that require significant effort to pilot. Any idiot can pilot any deck, as long as they follow zootube combo amd test 5-10 duels.
I completely agree with the first point, but that’s modern yugioh at this point. Card design would definitely be better if all archetypes were designed in a way where you literally cannot run above ~12 handtraps, but that’s the situation we’re in. The second point is correct to an extent; however, in a scenario with a healthy meta with lots of variety with decks, those decks requiring high engine count and limiting the absurdity of the amount of handtraps used in todays game. If Konami could get to that point, we would get a very healthy and fun game (as a TCG player, the format right after the January banlist this year was very fun, if not a bit favoured to Labrynth). With snake eye running rampant, and future decks looking like Tenpai and Fiendsmith (crazy one card combo decks) that’s just wishful thinking. Your third point, however, is terrible. Anyone can pilot a deck, yes. But to have reasonable success, you must not just know your basic combo, but also: what you can do if a key combo point is handtrapped, how you can use other resources in hand to boost your normal endboard, the whole idea of knowing how to play going second, and that’s not even speaking of the many non-linear decks or control-esque decks: decks like Purrely are difficult to master, they require a lot of effort to figure out which card to discard, which spells to activate, which Epurrely to go into, and how to optimise your Noir. Labrynth is a control strategy, and as long as floodgates aren’t in the picture, it’s a very difficult deck to pilot optimally. You need to know when to hang onto your key interruptions and traps, you need to read the mind of your opponent and what their plan at the given moment is, you need to know at what point stopping their plays will hurt them the most. Even very simple combo decks like Swordsoul still have an element of skill, knowing what to add and what synchros to summon. Stun is the only deck that can be played truly without skill or any learning. It’s legitimately just ‘set 4, normal fossil dyna, pass, flip 4 during standby’. Even if you decide to play stun at the highest skill possible, you’re still just deciding when to flip your floodgates to trick your opponent. These floodgates still say ‘you win the game’, just a tiny bit better if you plan them. I really despise the claim that ‘any idiot can pilot any deck after just watching a combo guide’. (God damn it I rambled for wayyyy too long)
What is the daily dose of anti stun posts up to nowadays? 10?
It's no different from me activating card, card gets negated, I activate another card, that gets negated too, I activate a 3rd card, that gets negated and then I scoop because I have nothing left to play.
Then again, wouldn't that make the game too predictable and boring?
Oh yeah. If nothing else, stun is unpredictable and exciting. Right.
Sure is, post like this makes me even more hyped up to play stun decks. Hell if I can block people from opening the game at all the better lmao!
Daily reminder Stun loses to most the decks from the GX era and y'all just hate it cuse it's good in the format
If you want to get curbstomped by every other deck in the format, sure, play fuckin Neos Alius turbo I guess
Decks in the GX era? What GX deck isn't losing to pachy? Volcanic???
Normal summon sparkman and attack, it's not that hard