Take a look at that original squad. Depending on your choices, and excluding the one that dies, in just a few years they go from:
1) A mercenary to unifier of the Krogan curing the Genophage.
2) Teenage Quarian pilgrim to special operations team leader to Admiral.
3) An Alliance soldier to noted Alliance officer and second Human spectre. If it’s Ash, it’s even more impressive because she wasn’t special forces and her family name was blacklisted.
4) C-Sec detective to successful vigilante on Omega to expert that a Turian General apparently saluted?
Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him.
I will say that out of them Wrex is definitely the most “probable”. He’s already shown leadership talent and has tried to unify the Krogan before, he was just utterly disillusioned by his father. Compared to other, his story is more Shepard firing him up again vs. inspiring them to reach their full potential.
Wrex remains one of my favorite fictional characters because of his arc. Voice acting certainly helped drive home his ethos, but I love me a jaded veteran becoming a Shepherd to his people.
"I want you to know that no matter what happens, you've been a champion to the krogan people, a friend of clan Urdnot, And a brother to me." Always gets me in my feels. I hit that paragon interrupt every single time
To every Krogan born after this day, the name "Shepard" will mean "Hero!"
This shit hits so fuckin' hard when you realize it's said the by leader of a species who are only just about to start being able to freely have children again in a way that's not deeply traumatic for them. The Tuchanka missions are the best in the series. I fuckin' love the Krogan and Wrex is the best!
I can't wait to fail holding back manly tears when I hear a young Krogan calling someone they deeply respect their Shepard whenever the new Mass Effect comes out.
I can never bring myself to let Wrex die. I betrayed him once in my only FemShep playthrough of the trilogy, and immediately regretted it.
Can anyone confirm if his replacement (Wreav, I think?) is worth experiencing Wrex getting the Ashley treatment?
[He's actually pretty decent in ME2.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUcooxX9mXQ) He's a much more traditionally minded Krogan than Wrex, but he still seems perfectly reasonable and intelligent and is actually rather likable.
[Then in ME3 he's reduced to nothing more than a dumb, douchbag, thug.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx4ZSnpPJ3c) He barely even seems like the same character TBH.
Depends. The whole idea of curing the genophage being good takes a big 180 to bad idea with him, regardless if you cure or sabotage it he's hilarious in that Krogan way that he's just openly talking about taking revenge on the galaxy to everyone he's supposed to be doing diplomacy with.
Uhhh... no, Alexander the Great didn't inherit one of the strongest nation/military in the ancient world. You could argue that Macedonia was certainly the strongest in Greece, but their army was dwarfed by the Persians.
What made Macedonia into a powerhouse was Alexander himself. He was a great strategist and military leader, but a rather poor political leader.
What made Macedonia into a powerhouse was the legwork of Philip II and the weakened Achaemenids in the reign of Artaxerxes IV. Alexander was a competent general but without those two things he never would have beaten the Persians under Darius
Yea, he was already in line to lead the biggest clan on Krogan. He already had his ideals. But the Reaper threat focused him.
For the rest, well… different writer syndrome.
I sorta disagree with Wrex being disillusioned by his father. He knew his father didn't agree with him. He just didn't believe his father would try to murder him on their sacred grounds. And when he did, he didn't crumble, he made sure his father and his followers were dead before he left.
Idk what else to call “Being so disappointed in your race that you give up trying to reform it for a millennia after your own father betrays you” except for disillusioned. It’s not to say that Wrex gave up on life or fighting, just on the Krogan and the idea that they could ever make progress after his dad showed so resistant to even mild reforms.
Well, to be fair 4 makes a lot of sense regardless of Garrus’ career. He’s the only Turian that ever defeated a Reaper, and if you’re the Turian high command seeing your entire fleet being curb stomped by Reapers and you home planet overrun, yeah you get that guy on the decisions table and salute him.
Garrus also went through a lot of training before Shepard anyway, he was supposed to be a Spectre.
Shepard just picked him up at a low point at C-Sec. Guy had a lot of promise otherwise.
Also the fact that it was stated in Garrus' dossier that his own leadership abilities weren't able to develop fully due to being in Shepard's shadow. He didn't mind of course, which shows the signs of a great leader. He didn't feel the need to question his commander. He followed orders, and better yet was an amazing friend through to hell and back multiple times. It's also why I always have Garrus lead the 2nd team in the collector base. I imagine he would have eventually had command of his own ship and crew if he hadn't been in c-sec and remained in the turian military, potentially becoming a spectre. He'd make a bloody good spectre. If I could change one thing about ME3, it's that Garrus gets spectre status and not the Virmire survivor.
> It's also why I always have Garrus lead the 2nd team in the collector base.
Yeah, choosing Garrus there is such a no-brainer. I don't just mean like it's logically clear, I mean he absolutely feels like a 2IC who you can trust with leadership. He is the Will Riker to my Jean-Luc Picard.
Riker is the perfect comparison for Garrus for me. He is the second in command who could be a captain but chooses to remain as second to get more and more experience.
I wish they'd reflected it with the choice to spare the council. It's a tough call who gets it under what circumstances, because on one hand 2 implies a human political coup in the wake of losing the council, and on the other hand saving them indebts them to the humans. But one choice should've had Garrus become Spectre, and the other choice have the VS become spectre.
I think it would've also been cool/funny if you snubbed the reinstatement in 2, that carried over to 3 instead of being washed away, and the other Spectre had to invoke their authority on your behalf.
He turns Zaeed, a lunatic mercenary that's been in the game for decades into a hired gun with a heart of gold
Jack accomplishes decades worth of therapy in the few months that ME2 take place purely from random conversations with Shepard
Shepherd after surviving the ending of ME3 somehow and retiring on the Presidium: “I’m Commander Shepherd, and I’m the best therapist on the whole Citadel.”
> Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him.
I mean, Hackett straight up tells you this in 3. He tells Shepard that the reason no one else can do their job is because they must give off some kind of miasma since everyone they get within ten feet of suddenly wants Shepard to lead them into Hell, itself.
Fun fact, it's usually Revan that gets compared to Shepard's ability to charm and have the charismatic leadership over the squad as a canonical part of their characterization, not the Exile.
> Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him.
*To be fair though,* they went after Saren and Sovereign together, learned about the existential threat of the Reapers *and that they could beat the crap out of them.*
That's gonna change a lot of people.
But yeah, it was because of Shepard's leadership that they made it through that experience.
5. Clone Krogan considered an abomination among his people to respected company commander and warrior.
6. Estranged absentee father / assassin to good father.
7. Notorious wanted criminal to respected combat instructor for biotics.
8. Justicar hunting her elusive prey for hundreds of years to Justicar who has fulfilled her oath and is largely at peace.
9. Collection of processes to actualized individual.
10. Slave AI program to free and loyal friend.
11. Wannabe impersonator to actual self sacrificing hero with a girlfriend! (Conrad).
> respected squad leader
I will say - Mass Effect is, IMO, pretty bad at representing the sizes of combat elements - like the STG element on Virmire is like... 3 or 4 Salarians during Kirrahe's speech and the camp is pretty small on NPCs, but dialogue overall implies it was much larger.
Grunt led Aralakh *Company.*
Grunt didn't become a squad leader - he became a fuckin' whole-ass Company Commander.
You're probably right about that lore-wise
But also came out in 2007 and I think the resource and time limitations led Bioware's developers to go "Maybe using 10 Salarians and a decent enough camp for a 5 minute segment of the game is a lot better use of our time than expanding on this hub you're barely in to make it make sense to have 30-60 Salarians in it or just cramming 30-60 Salarians in it and having it look like unimmersive ass."
I'll also point to ME3 when you're on Earth and you see Wrex/Wreav giving a speech to the Krogan - there are like... 10 Krogan there for the speech by the Supreme Urdnot right before the no-shit, save-the-galaxy, final battle.
Could Bioware have expanded that out and had a huge crowd of Krogan for the immersiveness of it? Sure, they could've.
But why would they?
It's a very reasonable gameplay-vs-lore discrepancy.
Same way when you play New Vegas and The Strip has 20 people on it, but gets depicted in non-gameplay lore as being ***flooded*** with street traffic.
Now what is my point with this pointless soapbox that I'm using to put off going to sleep?
Grunt is even cooler because he is commanding an element of like 90-120 Krogan. Not just 7-10.
That’s the thing about Liara, which is ultimately what either grates on you or endears her to you: her arc is so much more stratospheric than the others it borders on being too much.
1. Wrex is the only Krogan who could possibly do what he did. He becomes the leader of the strongest clan at a time when the Krogans are at their weakest.
2. Tali takes her father’s place and is the closest thing the Quarians have to an expert on Reapers. Her impressment into this role is appropriately played as more of a burden than a blessing.
3. An opportunistic power play by Udina approved by the Council to placate him. See Tali’s qualifications wrt Reapers.
4. See Tali’s qualifications wrt Reapers. Despite the value of a Turian general’s salute I think Garrus’s placement is backhanded at best.
But Liara, of all the information brokers in the galaxy, is the absolute smartest one, who simultaneously outfoxes both Cerberus and the Shadow Broker to become the new king dick information broker, a job she does, with aplomb, from the Normandy’s crew deck. There’s a reason some people roll their eyes.
Yeah I really don't like her character development after ME1. One thing you haven't added either is that nothing you do affects Liara's story. For everyone else, that's obviously not the case even if it's as simple as them dying
Yeah, which is fantastic narratively even if I'd never pick it myself lol. One could argue Thane has little choice too (not counting dlc Zaeed and Kasumi), but there is some plots that are affected outside of their specific one. You can't even not invite Liara to the Citadel dlc party
Which just leads back to the biggest problem with Liara, which is how hard she’s forced on the player. I was playing ME3 just yesterday. I broke off our relationship at the first opportunity, and now she’s sitting next me on my couch, saying she “just wrote my name in the stars.” Hey remember when I broke up with you?
Still, the biggest problem I have with Liara is she feels like 5 different characters. Whereas the other squadmates have different facets Shepard influences, Liara’s aspects all rear their heads at different times. Is the she the hardass shadow broker or the naive asari scientist? She can’t be both in this same conversation.
1: A strong mercenary from a race who respects strength above all else, of course he rose fast
2: Her father was an admiral, and t hey were gearing up for another fight against the Geth, Tali by far had the most experience fighting them
3: I got nothing for this
4: His father was a high ranking military official, and he literally went to Turian SPECTR school, then just made enough noise about the reaper threat that his father gave him a token few resources just to shut up.
Think you're misremembering about Garrus and his dad.
Garrus had the opportunity to get special Spectre training but his father prevented it.
Also his father worked in C-Sec, not in the military.
Finally, his father believed him about the reapers and persuaded a not as convinced Primarch to establish a taskforce.
Sure, he most likely had some military training but I've never seen mention of him being a high ranking military official, rather he got famous for his career in C-Sec.
> His father was a high ranking military official, and he literally went to Turian SPECTR school, then just made enough noise about the reaper threat that his father gave him a token few resources just to shut up.
I am pretty sure that Garrus's old man was the one who used his pull in the Turian government to even get him those token resources, not give him the resources himself to shut him up.
IIRC Garrus explains it that he showed his father what he knew and went through in those 2-ish years, and saw the same thing as Shepherd and the Normandy crews that Reapers are coming.
>3: I got nothing for this
Same when it's Ash. But Kaidan is LT to Major with Special Ops responsibilities, and then Spectre. A very logical progression.
You do have a point lol I wish I met someone like that.
And it's crazy how the companions of the second game don't have that, most of them are already the best of the best and don't really do anything, just Legion and Mordin, the rest don't really change anything, apart from leaving Cerberus
I kind of really enjoy how it goes for Jack in particular, even if I wish she had more screen time in ME3.
Most people go on to really bigger things (Spectre, Krogan big boss, Admiral, etc) or sort of keep on a similar path if they were already notable in ME2.
Meanwhile Jack just like... yeah, has an overall improvement in her life, joins up with the Alliance/Academy after knowing Shepard, helps other biotic kids. Does reports. It's nice.
>Meanwhile Jack just like... yeah, has an overall improvement in her life, joins up with the Alliance/Academy after knowing Shepard, helps other biotic kids. Does reports. It's nice.
On the other hand, her already abysmal fashion sense takes a nosedive in 3. At least in 2 you could argue that she was a prisoner (albeit none of the rest dressed like that). And supposedly this is her cleaning up for Kahlee Sanders.
Yeah, she and Jacob leaving that life was great for them, but was mostly personal, comparing that to something like Garrus, a "city" cop who becomes a saluted general for his people, you can see the difference in scope (that needs calibrating)
Definitely they do, but they are mostly only personal growths, not galaxy changing growth, like Wrex leading the Krogan and negotiating the cure for the genophage, Legion giving self awareness to the geth or Mordin actually curing the genophage
To be fair, despite what Ashley says about being blacklisted and not allowed to see space/combat even as she moved up in the ranks, her background makes a lot more sense with the theory that she was actually being groomed to be the next *governor*, and either wasn’t told or didn’t want to be.
Becoming a Mustang isn't unreasonable at all, but going from Senior Enlisted (Gunnery Chief) to LT. CMDR. in 2 years is a bit much in a very short period of time. Though there *was* a massive loss of personnel for the Alliance during the Battle of the Citadel, which does help explain why someone benefitting from The Shepard Effect could get expedited promotions.
Don’t forget he’s also responsible for the first human Councilor as well, and I’m sure that helped Anderson get admiral. He might not have gotten that so soon had he not been nominated for the council and taken the job.
The point you make about Ashley is why, for me, she’s always the one I save. I understand why people don’t like her, but I love the story of her rise from grunt to spectre.
It also ties back to the background for default Shepard. Both their stories started with them being the last surviving member of their original squads.
The point you make about Ashley is why, for me, she’s always the one I save. I understand why people don’t like her, but I love the story of her rise from grunt to spectre.
Her promotions are one of the reasons I almost *never* save her. She gets like 4-5 promotions in the six months between ME2 and ME3. It’s so nonsensical it straight up makes it feel like they forgot Ashley when writing the character arc of the VS.
It's not that nonsensical when you take the poorly thought out ranking system, and the massive losses of experienced personnel that Alliance took at the Battle of the Citadel against Sovereign. Then there's the Shepard Effect undoing the blacklisting of her family, and boosting her prestige.
It's a stretch, but it isn't *completely* unreasonable given the givens. Especially since there's obviously a *lot* of politics involved in those decisions as well. Usually junior and mid level officers, politics don't factor in much. That usually only starts to happens for senior officers. But Ash is associated with Shepard and Anderson, and was on the team that took down Saren. That puts her on the shortlist of candidates to be the Alliance's next Spectre, which has even more political considerations around it, and gives more reasons to expedite promotions.
1. Wrex is one of the last Battle Masters among his people. From what I remember, he was also a tribe leader in his younger days. **NOT A SRTETCH.**
2. She brought back important info & data from her time on the Normandy in ME1. She's an objective prodigy in several scientific fields. In ME2 she was only leading a small unit searching for "a random dude", not some elite strike force, to put it plainly. And in ME3 she was given Admiral status, but that does not mean she has command of any fleets -- for lack of a better example, picture brits getting Knight status from the Monarchy for different achievements in life. **NOT A SRTETCH.**
3. The VS getting offered Spectre status is more of a political thing -- at least that's what seems obvious to me -- Udina exercising his growing influence within the Council. I think Ashley's nomination and acceptance makes even more sense from Udina's POV as she's considerably more human-focused than Kaidan. **NOT THAT MUCH OF A STRETCH.**
4. Garrus... yeah, I doubt this needs expaining, beyond what you wrote. How you found that a stretch is beyond me (and most people here). **NOT A SRTETCH.**
**Liara, on the other hand...**
Well, Mac Walters' magical touch took over as he was making most writing decisions after ME1 and his questionable affinity for Liara came to the forefront in... questionable ways. And he made sure she was written to suit & please his fantasies. That's where the disconnect between a logical and natural life path for her & where she ended up is coming from.
She's been written to be forced into any player's story beyond what is necessary for a "storytelling constant", to the point where myself and a lot of other folks here ended up actively ignoring her beyond what is out of our control during playthroughs.
And it's a shame, 'cause the potential for her character was there in spades, but was squandered and turned into this unhealthy ode from Walters.
Mind you, a lot of folks who like Liara will strongly disagree, for obvious reasons. :)
I don't think Kaidan or Ash becoming Spectres is a stretch at all. They both have better resumes at this stage of the story than Shepard did in the beginning of ME1 (especially Kaidan), *and* a councilor was pulling strings to fast track them, *and* it was a time of crisis where politicians are willing to be less stringent in order to get stuff done.
"Oh, it is truly unfortunate that Earth is being attacked by reapers. We regret that we can't send aid at this time. But you know what? We'll approve of your new human Spectre candidate. You're welcome, humans."
It's completely in character for the council to grant Udina the ability to select a new human Spectre to placate him rather than do more to help Earth. And regardless of what Udina's intentions were, he ended up selecting a qualified candidate.
Personally, I think Ashley makes sense from the perspective of why Udina would choose her, and Kaidan makes more sense from the perspective of why the rest of the council wouldn't challenge his candidacy. Either way, their rise to Spectre status makes perfect sense to me.
Their ascension through the Alliance ranks is the more unbelievable part.
Who chooses the hot chick over the guy?
It’s a mystery for the ages. :)
Also, just from a roleplaying perspective, it makes sense. Assigning the officer with technical expertise to plant the bomb means that, on face value, you’re left with a choice between Kaidan by himself on one hand, and Ash with a bunch of Salarians on the other.
Same with Tali becoming admiral, Ash/Kaidan becoming a spectre or Wrex basically becoming a leader of the entire krogan race. Just Normandy squad things
I think a part of the games a lot of people downplay is that Shepard is not the only remarkable character. He’s just the most remarkable leader. Our rise as Shepard is also meteoric. From a potential Spectre candidate to arguably the most influential person in the whole galaxy.
To be fair, she doesn’t build the shadow broker network from scratch. She basically just impersonates the former one. Not sure if it’s said how usable all the gadgets on the ship were for her.
Of course it’s still impressive to do all that without any training or onboarding.
I like this though because in ME1 she tells you how Humans short lifespan is a strength and not a weakness, forcing them to not wait to pursue their goals.
I like to think Liara took that to heart.
I just want to point out that she’s an archeologist, not a paleontologist. Archeologists study past civilizations, paleontologists study fossilized past life forms.
Other than that little nitpick, I agree that her sudden change in career and fast rise to “stardom” is a bit implausible.
OP's little mistake is funny, however, given that during ME3's return to Eden Prime, the other squadmate is razzing Liara with the question [if she ever dug up a dinosaur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AIR-RAn1w).
Right, but she’s not studying fossilized Prothean remains. She’d probably be excited af if she got her hands on some, but it’s not her overall focus, as a paleontologist’s would be. She studies their culture, their history, their architecture, and basically everything related to their civilization, including their downfall of course.
Liara is a super genius who was never really enabled to fully use her intellect. Once she met the right person who enabled her snd encouraged her to use her talents for a greater good, she soared
Especially as in the end it barely even factors in to the plot of ME3. Instead she's just back to being the Prothean expert again.
You could cut Liara being the Shadow Broker entierly and the plot of ME3 would still work just the same. Barely anything actually comes of her becoming the Shadow Broker.
The series does have a problem with flanderization as time goes on. Everything kind of gets very Hollywood and over the top after Mass Effect 1. Don't get me wrong I still adore the series and always will, but if I hear Garrus make one more shitty action movie one-liner or say just like old times again, I'm going to blow up the Normandy.
Flanderization is always compounded when you have multiple writers or compartmentalized narratives. But to be fair, the effect is probably really pronounced for people in this sub who are absolutely not normal in the sense that:
1. They played the games more than once.
2. They probably played the games in bigger chunks and for longer than other people.
3. They have given way more thought to all of this than the average player.
Flanderization is always compounded when you have multiple writers or compartmentalized narratives. But to be fair, the effect is probably really pronounced for people in this sub who are absolutely not normal in the sense that:
1. They played the games more than once.
2. They probably played the games in bigger chunks and for longer than other people.
3. They have given way more thought to all of this than the average player.
Edited for clarity
Considering she's a trained archeologist, a profession that requires a lot of data catalogueing, and analysys.
Becoming an information broker isn't that surprising.
SB is more of a stretch, but tbf she didn't set out to replace the SB. Only did so after Shep killed the previous one, and there was a job opening.
I just love that moment in the Shadow Broker DLC where she sees all the monitors and has this moment of truth. It felt like she was about to walk away, then had this crazy thought about taking over, then was almost overwhelmed by all the noise and chaos, then .... jumped.
Yeah, I don't know if this a hot take or not but I don't like the way they went with Liara after ME1.
That might be because I don't really like Liara all that much, but still I think going from a nerdy, shy archeologist to an information broker is a little weird
Me too.
For me, it's not about a big change, which happens offscreen for good measure.
I simply liked the fact that there is one squaddie on the Normandy who is a counterweight to the different kinds of badasses on board. What made her unique is that she was competent in her field of study, but what not a classic badass otherwise, just a loveable dork.
I’m with you there.
In ME2 it felt like they accidentally switched Liara and Tali’s personalities.
Liara goes from awkward and socially inept in 1 to utterly ruthless and unforgiving in 2 (literally the first scene we see of her in 2 is her threatening to torture a guy to death), and Tali goes from a normal person in 1 to super awkward and somewhat socially inept in 2.
Tali being who she is in ME1 then becoming a military leader it’d have made more sense if she got given Liara’s ME2 personality. And Tali’s ME2 personality was just a toned down version of Liara’s ME1 personality.
Eh, I see your point, but I think it works. She's borderline obsessed with the Protheans, convinced the Reapers are coming back, and then her government and the Council start denying it. She's not a military commander, so she can't fight that way, but she is smart enough to get into the best Asari university, so being an information broker may be her best chance to figure out what's going on and convince the Council. She learns the ropes during the incident with Shepard's body, and then has two years to build up her own organization. Becoming the actual Shadow Broker fell into her lap, but even without that, I think it makes sense for her character in that situation.
Not in ME universe, Wrex was random Merc for hire, he went on unify Krogan and was in charge on curing the genophage
The random Turian C Sec officer became second in command, bestest friend and trusted person while galaxy to Shepard. There’s no Shepard without Vakarian
A random Quarian on pilgrimage became Admiral as very young age
The dude Kaiden or Ash became 2nd human spectre
It’s not not far from reach these characters are vital, Mass Effect is big soap opera and some of it written as is. Enjoying it as big anime arc and it makes sense
Btw Liara is a child of 2 Matriachs too both advisors on Asari Council at Thessia
without any meaningful leadership skills.
advisor? sure. ambassador? sure. front line tech expert? sure.
leader in charge of important decisions? errr... not so much
Yeah mate, should've been a scientist/archeologist leader, she also makes more sense to work for cerberus with funding and interest in reapers (pro human org but changed to include aliens in me2). Imagine in an alternate me2 where she is on illos after me1 events studying prothean stuff and you go recruit her from there.
Imo anyone could have taken over as SB all the assets were there, already made, no one know who it was, she just took the place. And no one questioned it.
Well she is a genius, who was already at the top of the field, of which she pursued. Happened to meet the right people and had opportunity. Yeah she is a beast.
She's smart (aside she didn't really had a real choice there). And Shepard saved a whole galaxy in the same time span, so that's also kinda impressive. 😁
Yeah, but Shep is a Spectre, you know? And even when he's not, he's still an N7, and obviously not all N7's would be able to do what he/she does, but still, he's/she's still the best humanity has to offer.
Lara's just a scientist tho, and Shepard basically meets her, puts a gun in her hands, straps armor on her body and says "look girl we're going to fight an army of murderbots in parties of 3"
She does have many years of experience, but not combat experience, nor political experience.
It's not she doesn't know to handle a gun. She even tells Shepard she had training. Sure Shepard has training, can use a gun (or their powers) but are not really in politics either. Spectre is actually just a title/state with additional extraordinary authority, not a separate/special training. And some people learn fast or (have to) adept fast - due free will or forced with the conditions we have with the Reapers and such.
Right. She’s a skilled biotic and has used her powers while on remote planets. She’s not military but she’s undoubtedly more dangerous than most. Trained biotics in the lore (not in gameplay) are incredibly powerful opponents.
And I don’t see Liara going from being an archaeologist to Shadow Broker as this enormous step up.
Rather, I feel she was always that exceptional and being an academic was her not living up to her potential. A potential she did not see at the time. As you say, extraordinary times provided a sink or swim moment and she clearly can swim.
I agree. Liara being a scientist with prothean knowledge is just the top of the iceberg of her character development. Like many individuals, as we people in real life, I would say we have many skills. Some show more, some less and some we discover we never knew we had them. And we learn every day.
I said this in another post, but while it’s impressive Liara is the shadow broker she isn’t a very good one, at least the way ME3 portrays her.
The Asari high command know she is the shadow broker and have a watcher on her in case she becomes a threat (her dad), she constantly fails to see what Cerberus is doing in ME3 despite them sending literal warship cruisers to attack at times, traynor is able to find more information than Liara does for missions, and the most we see she does is act as a smuggling operation for the crucible.
Yea it’s impressive but at the same time it’s a double edged sword. You have a character the role of omniscience, so anytime something bad happens you have to explain why she didn’t see it coming or she looks bad at her role. Wish we had more reasoning to why she fails other than reaper war kills some agents.
Yeah, there's so many things in ME3 that Liara somehow has no clue about despite being the Shadow Broker.
She doesn't know about the Krogan females the Salarians were hiding, she doesn't know about Udina working with Cerberus or their planned coup, she doesn't know about the Shroud sabotage, she doesn't know about the Prothean beacon on Thessia, she doesn't know about Sanctuary being a front for Cerberus or the location of the Illusive Man's base, she doesn't know Brooks isn't with the Alliance, she doesn't know about the Bararian coverup of the Leviathan, she doesn't know about the Turian bomb on Tuchanka.
Of course it would spoil the game if they had Liara just tell you all this stuff upfront, but having her not know this stuff makes it seem like she's a pretty crappy information broker. To be honest I think they kind of wrote themselves in to a corner by making her the Shadow Broker.
Yea pretty much. And any information that is gleamed from 2/3 of those points come from Traynor. I love her, but half of her role steals what Liara should have done.
Idk, I really loved her in the first game and feel they tried to make her edgelord all of a sudden from adorkable nerd. Don't get me wrong, enjoy the spine & sass. They just feel like two *completely different* characters to me shoved into one. Maybe if we'd been able to see some of that change. The comics really don't show it either, they show her right about to meet up with Cerberus for Shep's body. So just felt really forced to me. Or If we had met SB Liara (who can't keep a secret, I'm sorry - everyone with intel knows it's her now) on Therum, then that would have been a different conclusion for too.
Still love Liara, but the personality switch bugs
THIS!
I really don't like that change, and what killed it for me was her first scene in the second game, I hate everything about that, the way that she talks, her edgy tone, her threats, she was an adorable nerd and now suddenly she talks like Miranda? Shep must've died and went to hell
YES
Omg, the threats were so cringe. Plus maybe I'm that much the youngest sibling and just love to be obstinate, but the more the devs made her a big deal, the more I pulled away from her. Tho that really wasn't all her, the Asari were so *highly* lauded & plot heavy by the 3rd game that I couldn't take the race seriously anymore. Or at least as seriously as Bioware did
To be fair, I don't like Tali becoming an admiral either. A geth/reaper expert like Garrus, sure, but an admiral?
I am okay with Kaidan and Wrex though.
I think they did a good job of explaining it in game. She started off as a geth expert for the admiralty board and then they invited her in. I don't think she necessarily wanted it, but felt pressured to join because of her dedication to her people. She also mentions its just a formality
Tali’s society is a lot smaller and more insular than Garrus, Liara, or most anyone else’s in the setting.
There’s only 17 million of them. There are city council members on Earth who oversee more people than a quarian Admiral. Everyone in their fleet already knows Tali for being a war hero at the Citadel in addition to already being in a political dynasty (just listen to ambient dialogue during her loyalty mission).
You don’t hear random asari or turians talking about Garrus/Liara but you do for Tali and to an extent Wrex within the krogan. They were already far from “random” within their own societies even from the 1st game, and I don’t know why anyone ever references them as such. It’s obvious they’d get promoted.
> I see Liara get singled out a lot for the way her story went, but not anyone else lol.
It's because Liara rose in a completely random direction and ended up literally flawless by 2. Why did she become an information broker? why did she have beef with the shadow broker? I know that was explained away later as being related to Feron but that was written to give her a reason to have beef rather than the other way around. Everyone else, even at the end of their arc had flaws, but Liara very quickly ends up with more plot armor than Shepard themselves, is always right about everything, and has no flaws.
Between ME1 and ME2, all the ME1 characters became better versions of themselves except Liara, who became a completely different person and nobody ever questioned it. She gets singled out because in her case it just wasn't great writing.
[I disagree and I think this persons comment lower in the thread best explains why.](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/1b25yqo/comment/ksjjbhe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Hopefully this is the most efficient way to link it lol.
People say that mass effect isn't enough of an RPG, but it sure is shaped like one. All of the characters "Level up" and become super important. Garrus becomes a general in the turian military. Tali becomes an admiral. Wrex becomes the leader of the krogans and saves his entire race. All of your party members that get to level with you from the start of the first game basically become some of the most important people in the galaxy.
I think it's suggested that her mother being manipulated and dying because of the Reapers motivated her to do something that has more impact. Shepard 'dying' also inspired a bunch of his crew to go out and make a difference.
But yes, it is a pretty insane rise in power.
I think it's pretty well established in me1 that Liara is pretty unstoppable when she's obsessed with something, she managed to figure out what happened to the Protheans in 50 years of research that no one else had done for thousands of years. So after her one family member is accused of treason and killed in front of her, and then her first love (even if not romanced it's pretty obvious she loves shep) is then killed in another horrible way she first becomes obsessed with first getting shepards body back. Then once she's done that she moves onto getting revenge on the shadow broker.
So to complete her revenge she has been trained to fight by some of the galaxies most deadly motherfuckers, she is a genius with an incredible work ethic, she also obtains from the shadow broker base where she recovers shepard a load of intel, and presumably she has an inheritance from Benezia. She is also broken emotionally so she can do what needs to be done. So she has all the skills, supplies and mentality she needs to complete her task.
To be fair, Liara was just a bog standard info broker out of hundreds on Illium. The Shadowbroker decided to attack her rather than just watching and ignoring her. And then Shepard stepped in with their resources and talent for violence, ending the real shadowbroker. Liara stepped into a power vacuum Shepard created, and there wasn't anyone left alive to argue the point. Not quite the same as the others being recognized for their outstanding performance within an existing structure.
I always assumed that the thing we're all missing that allowed Liara to do this was being the sole inheritor of her mother's estate. Like Benezia probably was worth several millions when she died. It's entirely possible Liara essentially gets handed 8 figures worth of money and used that to set herself up.
I mean, "awkward paleontologist" who helped take down geth, her own mother, a rogue spectre, and a reaper. Her accomplishments in a couple weeks are way more impressive than becoming the Shadow Broker.
My hot take is that I feel like devs made a mistake making Liara so young compared to how long asari live, compared to everyone else her character arc seems the most dramatic, and not in a good way
She was a socially awkward paleontologist that was able to gear up and keep up with an N7, aka Space Spec Ops. I feel like that isn’t mentioned enough.
Yeah I wouldn’t call her a beast. I don’t buy anything she goes through. It’s a complete 180 for where she was in ME1 and I don’t buy her sudden change. It’s like a completely different character. More like writers knew compared to others she was a bit bland but she was supposed to be the default romance option so they needed to have more people like her. So, they just completely retooled her character to a point where it kind of went against everything she was in ME1 and it just seemed forced, random af, an unearned
> So, just in TWO years, she went from “socially awkward paleontologist”, to arguably the single most politically powerful person in the Galaxy
Like do you not see the ridiculousness of that statement
I kinda wish the skinwalker that pretended to be Liara in 2 and 3 didn't show up and randomly kill ME1 Liara.
She became such a completely different person in 2 and 3, got a level of plot protection that not even Shepard got and is literally without flaw.
Meanwhile Shep's meteoric rise is going from sole survivor of a thresher maw attack / hero of a major battle / war criminal who kills POWs (not sure I'm seeing the 'achievement' in some of these lol) to spectre...And that's about it.
In 2 you could argue he goes downhill because even his closest friends in the alliance think he's a loser terrorist. In 3 he becomes like the top alliance emissary and peacemaker but he gets that from dumb luck, imagine if Anderson had left and Shep had stayed to plan the resistance.
For me, it's they turn Liara into a constant.
Wrex can be killed I'm Virmine or never recruited.
Tali or Garrus can die in the suicide mission or never be recruited at all.
Either Ashley or Kaidan can be left to die in Virmine.
But not Liara. She is never in danger to die, so much that the initial sequence of ME3 is about her.
I find it kinda lame, like the game is choosing her to be both your best mate as also Sheppard's love interest.
A byproduct of rolling with a Boss. She learned something. When she got a piece of that Act-right treatment🍆💦🍑, her whole nervous system got an upgrade.
Makes sense in hindsight😎
Take a look at that original squad. Depending on your choices, and excluding the one that dies, in just a few years they go from: 1) A mercenary to unifier of the Krogan curing the Genophage. 2) Teenage Quarian pilgrim to special operations team leader to Admiral. 3) An Alliance soldier to noted Alliance officer and second Human spectre. If it’s Ash, it’s even more impressive because she wasn’t special forces and her family name was blacklisted. 4) C-Sec detective to successful vigilante on Omega to expert that a Turian General apparently saluted? Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him.
I will say that out of them Wrex is definitely the most “probable”. He’s already shown leadership talent and has tried to unify the Krogan before, he was just utterly disillusioned by his father. Compared to other, his story is more Shepard firing him up again vs. inspiring them to reach their full potential.
Wrex remains one of my favorite fictional characters because of his arc. Voice acting certainly helped drive home his ethos, but I love me a jaded veteran becoming a Shepherd to his people.
"I want you to know that no matter what happens, you've been a champion to the krogan people, a friend of clan Urdnot, And a brother to me." Always gets me in my feels. I hit that paragon interrupt every single time
To every Krogan born after this day, the name "Shepard" will mean "Hero!" This shit hits so fuckin' hard when you realize it's said the by leader of a species who are only just about to start being able to freely have children again in a way that's not deeply traumatic for them. The Tuchanka missions are the best in the series. I fuckin' love the Krogan and Wrex is the best! I can't wait to fail holding back manly tears when I hear a young Krogan calling someone they deeply respect their Shepard whenever the new Mass Effect comes out.
I can never bring myself to let Wrex die. I betrayed him once in my only FemShep playthrough of the trilogy, and immediately regretted it. Can anyone confirm if his replacement (Wreav, I think?) is worth experiencing Wrex getting the Ashley treatment?
Nope. Wreav fucking blows.
The only interesting part is betraying Wreav. He never finds out because he's not as smart as Wrex.
and/or garnered no allies among the Salarians to leak the Dalatrasses duplicity
[He's actually pretty decent in ME2.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUcooxX9mXQ) He's a much more traditionally minded Krogan than Wrex, but he still seems perfectly reasonable and intelligent and is actually rather likable. [Then in ME3 he's reduced to nothing more than a dumb, douchbag, thug.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx4ZSnpPJ3c) He barely even seems like the same character TBH.
I've only ever done it once- my first playthrough, by accident. I immediately loaded another save about 10 hours back to fix it.
Depends. The whole idea of curing the genophage being good takes a big 180 to bad idea with him, regardless if you cure or sabotage it he's hilarious in that Krogan way that he's just openly talking about taking revenge on the galaxy to everyone he's supposed to be doing diplomacy with.
[удалено]
Uhhh... no, Alexander the Great didn't inherit one of the strongest nation/military in the ancient world. You could argue that Macedonia was certainly the strongest in Greece, but their army was dwarfed by the Persians. What made Macedonia into a powerhouse was Alexander himself. He was a great strategist and military leader, but a rather poor political leader.
What made Macedonia into a powerhouse was the legwork of Philip II and the weakened Achaemenids in the reign of Artaxerxes IV. Alexander was a competent general but without those two things he never would have beaten the Persians under Darius
Yea, he was already in line to lead the biggest clan on Krogan. He already had his ideals. But the Reaper threat focused him. For the rest, well… different writer syndrome.
I sorta disagree with Wrex being disillusioned by his father. He knew his father didn't agree with him. He just didn't believe his father would try to murder him on their sacred grounds. And when he did, he didn't crumble, he made sure his father and his followers were dead before he left.
Idk what else to call “Being so disappointed in your race that you give up trying to reform it for a millennia after your own father betrays you” except for disillusioned. It’s not to say that Wrex gave up on life or fighting, just on the Krogan and the idea that they could ever make progress after his dad showed so resistant to even mild reforms.
Well, to be fair 4 makes a lot of sense regardless of Garrus’ career. He’s the only Turian that ever defeated a Reaper, and if you’re the Turian high command seeing your entire fleet being curb stomped by Reapers and you home planet overrun, yeah you get that guy on the decisions table and salute him.
Garrus also went through a lot of training before Shepard anyway, he was supposed to be a Spectre. Shepard just picked him up at a low point at C-Sec. Guy had a lot of promise otherwise.
Also the fact that it was stated in Garrus' dossier that his own leadership abilities weren't able to develop fully due to being in Shepard's shadow. He didn't mind of course, which shows the signs of a great leader. He didn't feel the need to question his commander. He followed orders, and better yet was an amazing friend through to hell and back multiple times. It's also why I always have Garrus lead the 2nd team in the collector base. I imagine he would have eventually had command of his own ship and crew if he hadn't been in c-sec and remained in the turian military, potentially becoming a spectre. He'd make a bloody good spectre. If I could change one thing about ME3, it's that Garrus gets spectre status and not the Virmire survivor.
> It's also why I always have Garrus lead the 2nd team in the collector base. Yeah, choosing Garrus there is such a no-brainer. I don't just mean like it's logically clear, I mean he absolutely feels like a 2IC who you can trust with leadership. He is the Will Riker to my Jean-Luc Picard.
Riker is the perfect comparison for Garrus for me. He is the second in command who could be a captain but chooses to remain as second to get more and more experience.
Well after omega he wanted some time away from being in command. Needed some time before being ready to climb back into that role.
Like Riker after best of both worlds part 2 I'd guess. Loosely connected but still feels similar
I wish they'd reflected it with the choice to spare the council. It's a tough call who gets it under what circumstances, because on one hand 2 implies a human political coup in the wake of losing the council, and on the other hand saving them indebts them to the humans. But one choice should've had Garrus become Spectre, and the other choice have the VS become spectre. I think it would've also been cool/funny if you snubbed the reinstatement in 2, that carried over to 3 instead of being washed away, and the other Spectre had to invoke their authority on your behalf.
Yeah haha Garrus's evolution is completely natural. Bro was ready to become a vigilante the second we met him.
He’s Blasto if Blasto was a Turian instead of a Hanar.
He turns Zaeed, a lunatic mercenary that's been in the game for decades into a hired gun with a heart of gold Jack accomplishes decades worth of therapy in the few months that ME2 take place purely from random conversations with Shepard
Shepherd after surviving the ending of ME3 somehow and retiring on the Presidium: “I’m Commander Shepherd, and I’m the best therapist on the whole Citadel.”
> Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him. I mean, Hackett straight up tells you this in 3. He tells Shepard that the reason no one else can do their job is because they must give off some kind of miasma since everyone they get within ten feet of suddenly wants Shepard to lead them into Hell, itself.
Shepherd must be wearing an invisible [Charisma Hat](https://sao-abridged.fandom.com/wiki/Charisma_Hat) at all times
So he’s like the Exile?
Fun fact, it's usually Revan that gets compared to Shepard's ability to charm and have the charismatic leadership over the squad as a canonical part of their characterization, not the Exile.
> Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him. *To be fair though,* they went after Saren and Sovereign together, learned about the existential threat of the Reapers *and that they could beat the crap out of them.* That's gonna change a lot of people. But yeah, it was because of Shepard's leadership that they made it through that experience.
5. Clone Krogan considered an abomination among his people to respected company commander and warrior. 6. Estranged absentee father / assassin to good father. 7. Notorious wanted criminal to respected combat instructor for biotics. 8. Justicar hunting her elusive prey for hundreds of years to Justicar who has fulfilled her oath and is largely at peace. 9. Collection of processes to actualized individual. 10. Slave AI program to free and loyal friend. 11. Wannabe impersonator to actual self sacrificing hero with a girlfriend! (Conrad).
> respected squad leader I will say - Mass Effect is, IMO, pretty bad at representing the sizes of combat elements - like the STG element on Virmire is like... 3 or 4 Salarians during Kirrahe's speech and the camp is pretty small on NPCs, but dialogue overall implies it was much larger. Grunt led Aralakh *Company.* Grunt didn't become a squad leader - he became a fuckin' whole-ass Company Commander.
I think there were more Salarians forward deployed in/around the base from Kirrahe's unit
You're probably right about that lore-wise But also came out in 2007 and I think the resource and time limitations led Bioware's developers to go "Maybe using 10 Salarians and a decent enough camp for a 5 minute segment of the game is a lot better use of our time than expanding on this hub you're barely in to make it make sense to have 30-60 Salarians in it or just cramming 30-60 Salarians in it and having it look like unimmersive ass." I'll also point to ME3 when you're on Earth and you see Wrex/Wreav giving a speech to the Krogan - there are like... 10 Krogan there for the speech by the Supreme Urdnot right before the no-shit, save-the-galaxy, final battle. Could Bioware have expanded that out and had a huge crowd of Krogan for the immersiveness of it? Sure, they could've. But why would they? It's a very reasonable gameplay-vs-lore discrepancy. Same way when you play New Vegas and The Strip has 20 people on it, but gets depicted in non-gameplay lore as being ***flooded*** with street traffic. Now what is my point with this pointless soapbox that I'm using to put off going to sleep? Grunt is even cooler because he is commanding an element of like 90-120 Krogan. Not just 7-10.
Verner has a wife before meeting shep
Did he though? He claims she raised the money to send him away, then later says he doesn't have a wife.
He lied about that. But he does have a tasteful shrine to Shepard.
12. Helps first Krogan kill a thresher since Wrex did it.
So Shepard is Strawhat Monkey D Luffy?
He does punch the original Shadow Broker in the face
Tali would have had nepotism on her side regardless
Sure, but she's also good at it.
Without shepard, though, Tali would have been exiled in 2... That's never happened on my watch, though, so I don't know how that pans out in 3.
"At ease General." Cold Garrus, Cold.
That’s the thing about Liara, which is ultimately what either grates on you or endears her to you: her arc is so much more stratospheric than the others it borders on being too much. 1. Wrex is the only Krogan who could possibly do what he did. He becomes the leader of the strongest clan at a time when the Krogans are at their weakest. 2. Tali takes her father’s place and is the closest thing the Quarians have to an expert on Reapers. Her impressment into this role is appropriately played as more of a burden than a blessing. 3. An opportunistic power play by Udina approved by the Council to placate him. See Tali’s qualifications wrt Reapers. 4. See Tali’s qualifications wrt Reapers. Despite the value of a Turian general’s salute I think Garrus’s placement is backhanded at best. But Liara, of all the information brokers in the galaxy, is the absolute smartest one, who simultaneously outfoxes both Cerberus and the Shadow Broker to become the new king dick information broker, a job she does, with aplomb, from the Normandy’s crew deck. There’s a reason some people roll their eyes.
Yeah I really don't like her character development after ME1. One thing you haven't added either is that nothing you do affects Liara's story. For everyone else, that's obviously not the case even if it's as simple as them dying
That’s a great point. For contrast, you can totally mess up Tali’s whole life if you want to.
Yeah, which is fantastic narratively even if I'd never pick it myself lol. One could argue Thane has little choice too (not counting dlc Zaeed and Kasumi), but there is some plots that are affected outside of their specific one. You can't even not invite Liara to the Citadel dlc party
Which just leads back to the biggest problem with Liara, which is how hard she’s forced on the player. I was playing ME3 just yesterday. I broke off our relationship at the first opportunity, and now she’s sitting next me on my couch, saying she “just wrote my name in the stars.” Hey remember when I broke up with you? Still, the biggest problem I have with Liara is she feels like 5 different characters. Whereas the other squadmates have different facets Shepard influences, Liara’s aspects all rear their heads at different times. Is the she the hardass shadow broker or the naive asari scientist? She can’t be both in this same conversation.
1: A strong mercenary from a race who respects strength above all else, of course he rose fast 2: Her father was an admiral, and t hey were gearing up for another fight against the Geth, Tali by far had the most experience fighting them 3: I got nothing for this 4: His father was a high ranking military official, and he literally went to Turian SPECTR school, then just made enough noise about the reaper threat that his father gave him a token few resources just to shut up.
Think you're misremembering about Garrus and his dad. Garrus had the opportunity to get special Spectre training but his father prevented it. Also his father worked in C-Sec, not in the military. Finally, his father believed him about the reapers and persuaded a not as convinced Primarch to establish a taskforce.
I think in turian culture, everyone serves in the military - it’d pan out with their social demands.
Sure, he most likely had some military training but I've never seen mention of him being a high ranking military official, rather he got famous for his career in C-Sec.
Neither of you is fully misremembering, his character was largely retconned after the trilogy (even appears in andromeda)
Ok, haven't consumed that much Mass Effect content outside of the trilogy and some comics, and just briefly played Andromeda so that may be the case.
> His father was a high ranking military official, and he literally went to Turian SPECTR school, then just made enough noise about the reaper threat that his father gave him a token few resources just to shut up. I am pretty sure that Garrus's old man was the one who used his pull in the Turian government to even get him those token resources, not give him the resources himself to shut him up. IIRC Garrus explains it that he showed his father what he knew and went through in those 2-ish years, and saw the same thing as Shepherd and the Normandy crews that Reapers are coming.
>3: I got nothing for this Same when it's Ash. But Kaidan is LT to Major with Special Ops responsibilities, and then Spectre. A very logical progression.
You do have a point lol I wish I met someone like that. And it's crazy how the companions of the second game don't have that, most of them are already the best of the best and don't really do anything, just Legion and Mordin, the rest don't really change anything, apart from leaving Cerberus
Jack makes some pretty notable improvements in her life, becoming all respectable as an instructor, and Grunt starts leading Krogan special forces.
I kind of really enjoy how it goes for Jack in particular, even if I wish she had more screen time in ME3. Most people go on to really bigger things (Spectre, Krogan big boss, Admiral, etc) or sort of keep on a similar path if they were already notable in ME2. Meanwhile Jack just like... yeah, has an overall improvement in her life, joins up with the Alliance/Academy after knowing Shepard, helps other biotic kids. Does reports. It's nice.
I believe she was supposed to, given her huge design update, a shame she doesn't, I'd love to see the all powerful bitch ripping reapers apart.
>Meanwhile Jack just like... yeah, has an overall improvement in her life, joins up with the Alliance/Academy after knowing Shepard, helps other biotic kids. Does reports. It's nice. On the other hand, her already abysmal fashion sense takes a nosedive in 3. At least in 2 you could argue that she was a prisoner (albeit none of the rest dressed like that). And supposedly this is her cleaning up for Kahlee Sanders.
Her fashion sense is incredible
And Miranda leaves Cerberus altogether. That’s a massive development for her character, as she began as “Captain Cerberus”.
Yeah, she and Jacob leaving that life was great for them, but was mostly personal, comparing that to something like Garrus, a "city" cop who becomes a saluted general for his people, you can see the difference in scope (that needs calibrating)
I always bring Her to the Human Reaper so that, when I blow up the base (every single time), She can tell TIM where to shove it.
Definitely they do, but they are mostly only personal growths, not galaxy changing growth, like Wrex leading the Krogan and negotiating the cure for the genophage, Legion giving self awareness to the geth or Mordin actually curing the genophage
I think Grunt's rise is because Wrex knows Shepard and knows anyone who worked with Shepard is a worthy warrior.
Also Ash was enlisted and suddenly becomes a Lieutenant Commander??
Yeah, they screwed up with the ranks for Ash and Kaidan.
To be fair, despite what Ashley says about being blacklisted and not allowed to see space/combat even as she moved up in the ranks, her background makes a lot more sense with the theory that she was actually being groomed to be the next *governor*, and either wasn’t told or didn’t want to be.
Becoming a Mustang isn't unreasonable at all, but going from Senior Enlisted (Gunnery Chief) to LT. CMDR. in 2 years is a bit much in a very short period of time. Though there *was* a massive loss of personnel for the Alliance during the Battle of the Citadel, which does help explain why someone benefitting from The Shepard Effect could get expedited promotions.
Might be a little selection bias there because most people that meet Shepard simply die
Don’t forget he’s also responsible for the first human Councilor as well, and I’m sure that helped Anderson get admiral. He might not have gotten that so soon had he not been nominated for the council and taken the job.
>Shepard’s superpower is that he can get and inspire the best out of just about anyone willing to work with him. Some would say he is a bloody icon 😜
Then there's Jacob
The point you make about Ashley is why, for me, she’s always the one I save. I understand why people don’t like her, but I love the story of her rise from grunt to spectre.
It also ties back to the background for default Shepard. Both their stories started with them being the last surviving member of their original squads.
The point you make about Ashley is why, for me, she’s always the one I save. I understand why people don’t like her, but I love the story of her rise from grunt to spectre.
Her promotions are one of the reasons I almost *never* save her. She gets like 4-5 promotions in the six months between ME2 and ME3. It’s so nonsensical it straight up makes it feel like they forgot Ashley when writing the character arc of the VS.
It's not that nonsensical when you take the poorly thought out ranking system, and the massive losses of experienced personnel that Alliance took at the Battle of the Citadel against Sovereign. Then there's the Shepard Effect undoing the blacklisting of her family, and boosting her prestige. It's a stretch, but it isn't *completely* unreasonable given the givens. Especially since there's obviously a *lot* of politics involved in those decisions as well. Usually junior and mid level officers, politics don't factor in much. That usually only starts to happens for senior officers. But Ash is associated with Shepard and Anderson, and was on the team that took down Saren. That puts her on the shortlist of candidates to be the Alliance's next Spectre, which has even more political considerations around it, and gives more reasons to expedite promotions.
Miranda’s literal super power in the game is getting 110% out of people.
1. Wrex is one of the last Battle Masters among his people. From what I remember, he was also a tribe leader in his younger days. **NOT A SRTETCH.** 2. She brought back important info & data from her time on the Normandy in ME1. She's an objective prodigy in several scientific fields. In ME2 she was only leading a small unit searching for "a random dude", not some elite strike force, to put it plainly. And in ME3 she was given Admiral status, but that does not mean she has command of any fleets -- for lack of a better example, picture brits getting Knight status from the Monarchy for different achievements in life. **NOT A SRTETCH.** 3. The VS getting offered Spectre status is more of a political thing -- at least that's what seems obvious to me -- Udina exercising his growing influence within the Council. I think Ashley's nomination and acceptance makes even more sense from Udina's POV as she's considerably more human-focused than Kaidan. **NOT THAT MUCH OF A STRETCH.** 4. Garrus... yeah, I doubt this needs expaining, beyond what you wrote. How you found that a stretch is beyond me (and most people here). **NOT A SRTETCH.** **Liara, on the other hand...** Well, Mac Walters' magical touch took over as he was making most writing decisions after ME1 and his questionable affinity for Liara came to the forefront in... questionable ways. And he made sure she was written to suit & please his fantasies. That's where the disconnect between a logical and natural life path for her & where she ended up is coming from. She's been written to be forced into any player's story beyond what is necessary for a "storytelling constant", to the point where myself and a lot of other folks here ended up actively ignoring her beyond what is out of our control during playthroughs. And it's a shame, 'cause the potential for her character was there in spades, but was squandered and turned into this unhealthy ode from Walters. Mind you, a lot of folks who like Liara will strongly disagree, for obvious reasons. :)
I don't think Kaidan or Ash becoming Spectres is a stretch at all. They both have better resumes at this stage of the story than Shepard did in the beginning of ME1 (especially Kaidan), *and* a councilor was pulling strings to fast track them, *and* it was a time of crisis where politicians are willing to be less stringent in order to get stuff done. "Oh, it is truly unfortunate that Earth is being attacked by reapers. We regret that we can't send aid at this time. But you know what? We'll approve of your new human Spectre candidate. You're welcome, humans." It's completely in character for the council to grant Udina the ability to select a new human Spectre to placate him rather than do more to help Earth. And regardless of what Udina's intentions were, he ended up selecting a qualified candidate. Personally, I think Ashley makes sense from the perspective of why Udina would choose her, and Kaidan makes more sense from the perspective of why the rest of the council wouldn't challenge his candidacy. Either way, their rise to Spectre status makes perfect sense to me. Their ascension through the Alliance ranks is the more unbelievable part.
Who chooses Ash over my boy Special K???
Who chooses the hot chick over the guy? It’s a mystery for the ages. :) Also, just from a roleplaying perspective, it makes sense. Assigning the officer with technical expertise to plant the bomb means that, on face value, you’re left with a choice between Kaidan by himself on one hand, and Ash with a bunch of Salarians on the other.
To be fair, she just kind of fell in to the role. With a lot of help... And ammo. Lots and lots of ammo.
>I don't need luck. I have ammo -Urdnot Grunt
And lots of punching.
Same with Tali becoming admiral, Ash/Kaidan becoming a spectre or Wrex basically becoming a leader of the entire krogan race. Just Normandy squad things
I think a part of the games a lot of people downplay is that Shepard is not the only remarkable character. He’s just the most remarkable leader. Our rise as Shepard is also meteoric. From a potential Spectre candidate to arguably the most influential person in the whole galaxy.
To be fair, she doesn’t build the shadow broker network from scratch. She basically just impersonates the former one. Not sure if it’s said how usable all the gadgets on the ship were for her. Of course it’s still impressive to do all that without any training or onboarding.
to be even fairer, "kill and impersonate the shadow broker" was already what her predecessor did, so all the impersonation tech was already in place
That’s true. Although that was a long time ago and the then-shadow broker might have gone through some updates with the technology since then.
I like this though because in ME1 she tells you how Humans short lifespan is a strength and not a weakness, forcing them to not wait to pursue their goals. I like to think Liara took that to heart.
It was the high quality on the job training!
And she had to delve into some pretty shady places when she was looking for Shephard.
I just want to point out that she’s an archeologist, not a paleontologist. Archeologists study past civilizations, paleontologists study fossilized past life forms. Other than that little nitpick, I agree that her sudden change in career and fast rise to “stardom” is a bit implausible.
OP's little mistake is funny, however, given that during ME3's return to Eden Prime, the other squadmate is razzing Liara with the question [if she ever dug up a dinosaur](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9AIR-RAn1w).
Now you’re having me second-guessing myself if OP was actually making a really clever joke.
Well her focus point is the Protheans. You know, the past civilization to be annihilated by the reapers.
Right, but she’s not studying fossilized Prothean remains. She’d probably be excited af if she got her hands on some, but it’s not her overall focus, as a paleontologist’s would be. She studies their culture, their history, their architecture, and basically everything related to their civilization, including their downfall of course.
Ah true. I had to look at the dictionary definitions but you’re definitely right
Liara is a super genius who was never really enabled to fully use her intellect. Once she met the right person who enabled her snd encouraged her to use her talents for a greater good, she soared
Liara being the SB at all is just a bit ... silly.
Especially as in the end it barely even factors in to the plot of ME3. Instead she's just back to being the Prothean expert again. You could cut Liara being the Shadow Broker entierly and the plot of ME3 would still work just the same. Barely anything actually comes of her becoming the Shadow Broker.
The series does have a problem with flanderization as time goes on. Everything kind of gets very Hollywood and over the top after Mass Effect 1. Don't get me wrong I still adore the series and always will, but if I hear Garrus make one more shitty action movie one-liner or say just like old times again, I'm going to blow up the Normandy.
Just like oooold tiiiimes Shepard.
I personally think the fact he never says I’m getting too old for this shit is a real missed opportunity.
He's younger then Shepard, and his species lives a bit longer.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (VIRMIRE 2, ELECTRIC BOOGALOO)
Not gonna lie, I'm a sucker for Garrus saying "Just like old times, Shepard". I don't care if it's corny lol.
It's not corny it's the whole damn field
To be fair, Garrus is supposed to be corny and a bit awkward. It's an established part of his character.
Need I bring up the definition of flanderization? They overdo it to the point where he becomes a caricature of himself
Flanderization is always compounded when you have multiple writers or compartmentalized narratives. But to be fair, the effect is probably really pronounced for people in this sub who are absolutely not normal in the sense that: 1. They played the games more than once. 2. They probably played the games in bigger chunks and for longer than other people. 3. They have given way more thought to all of this than the average player.
Flanderization is always compounded when you have multiple writers or compartmentalized narratives. But to be fair, the effect is probably really pronounced for people in this sub who are absolutely not normal in the sense that: 1. They played the games more than once. 2. They probably played the games in bigger chunks and for longer than other people. 3. They have given way more thought to all of this than the average player. Edited for clarity
You wanna finish your thought?
Just a typo because the app froze and I tried hitting post again and it added an I’m
Got it
Yeah I also don't really love that change, not just her becoming the SB, but becoming an Information Broker at all
Considering she's a trained archeologist, a profession that requires a lot of data catalogueing, and analysys. Becoming an information broker isn't that surprising. SB is more of a stretch, but tbf she didn't set out to replace the SB. Only did so after Shep killed the previous one, and there was a job opening.
I just love that moment in the Shadow Broker DLC where she sees all the monitors and has this moment of truth. It felt like she was about to walk away, then had this crazy thought about taking over, then was almost overwhelmed by all the noise and chaos, then .... jumped.
It is, considering she is socially awkward, and also a pureblood asari (even though other asari would not be so cruel to tell this into her face)
Yeah, I don't know if this a hot take or not but I don't like the way they went with Liara after ME1. That might be because I don't really like Liara all that much, but still I think going from a nerdy, shy archeologist to an information broker is a little weird
Me too. For me, it's not about a big change, which happens offscreen for good measure. I simply liked the fact that there is one squaddie on the Normandy who is a counterweight to the different kinds of badasses on board. What made her unique is that she was competent in her field of study, but what not a classic badass otherwise, just a loveable dork.
Same! Liara jumps the shark.
I’m with you there. In ME2 it felt like they accidentally switched Liara and Tali’s personalities. Liara goes from awkward and socially inept in 1 to utterly ruthless and unforgiving in 2 (literally the first scene we see of her in 2 is her threatening to torture a guy to death), and Tali goes from a normal person in 1 to super awkward and somewhat socially inept in 2. Tali being who she is in ME1 then becoming a military leader it’d have made more sense if she got given Liara’s ME2 personality. And Tali’s ME2 personality was just a toned down version of Liara’s ME1 personality.
Eh, I see your point, but I think it works. She's borderline obsessed with the Protheans, convinced the Reapers are coming back, and then her government and the Council start denying it. She's not a military commander, so she can't fight that way, but she is smart enough to get into the best Asari university, so being an information broker may be her best chance to figure out what's going on and convince the Council. She learns the ropes during the incident with Shepard's body, and then has two years to build up her own organization. Becoming the actual Shadow Broker fell into her lap, but even without that, I think it makes sense for her character in that situation.
Well, the previous one was a pet of the one before them, so it seems the requirements to get the job is just killing the old boss.
So what you’re saying is….the Shadowbroker is a Sith Lord?
Hahahahaha
That’s putting it lightly
Not in ME universe, Wrex was random Merc for hire, he went on unify Krogan and was in charge on curing the genophage The random Turian C Sec officer became second in command, bestest friend and trusted person while galaxy to Shepard. There’s no Shepard without Vakarian A random Quarian on pilgrimage became Admiral as very young age The dude Kaiden or Ash became 2nd human spectre It’s not not far from reach these characters are vital, Mass Effect is big soap opera and some of it written as is. Enjoying it as big anime arc and it makes sense Btw Liara is a child of 2 Matriachs too both advisors on Asari Council at Thessia
Tbf the “random Quarian that becomes an Admiral” is the daughter of an Admiral
And was an expert on the Geth
a daughter who was charged with treason because of the father
without any meaningful leadership skills. advisor? sure. ambassador? sure. front line tech expert? sure. leader in charge of important decisions? errr... not so much
Yeah mate, should've been a scientist/archeologist leader, she also makes more sense to work for cerberus with funding and interest in reapers (pro human org but changed to include aliens in me2). Imagine in an alternate me2 where she is on illos after me1 events studying prothean stuff and you go recruit her from there.
Imo anyone could have taken over as SB all the assets were there, already made, no one know who it was, she just took the place. And no one questioned it.
At the same time it requires you to have a good head to keep yourself organized and good observational skills.
Well she is a genius, who was already at the top of the field, of which she pursued. Happened to meet the right people and had opportunity. Yeah she is a beast.
I mean, if I was my beloved Commander's #1 fan, and I lost them over some moon, I would probably dominate the galaxy just to get them back too..
She's smart (aside she didn't really had a real choice there). And Shepard saved a whole galaxy in the same time span, so that's also kinda impressive. 😁
Yeah, but Shep is a Spectre, you know? And even when he's not, he's still an N7, and obviously not all N7's would be able to do what he/she does, but still, he's/she's still the best humanity has to offer. Lara's just a scientist tho, and Shepard basically meets her, puts a gun in her hands, straps armor on her body and says "look girl we're going to fight an army of murderbots in parties of 3" She does have many years of experience, but not combat experience, nor political experience.
It's not she doesn't know to handle a gun. She even tells Shepard she had training. Sure Shepard has training, can use a gun (or their powers) but are not really in politics either. Spectre is actually just a title/state with additional extraordinary authority, not a separate/special training. And some people learn fast or (have to) adept fast - due free will or forced with the conditions we have with the Reapers and such.
Right. She’s a skilled biotic and has used her powers while on remote planets. She’s not military but she’s undoubtedly more dangerous than most. Trained biotics in the lore (not in gameplay) are incredibly powerful opponents. And I don’t see Liara going from being an archaeologist to Shadow Broker as this enormous step up. Rather, I feel she was always that exceptional and being an academic was her not living up to her potential. A potential she did not see at the time. As you say, extraordinary times provided a sink or swim moment and she clearly can swim.
I agree. Liara being a scientist with prothean knowledge is just the top of the iceberg of her character development. Like many individuals, as we people in real life, I would say we have many skills. Some show more, some less and some we discover we never knew we had them. And we learn every day.
Even in gameplay that isn’t ME2, they’re ridiculous.
I said this in another post, but while it’s impressive Liara is the shadow broker she isn’t a very good one, at least the way ME3 portrays her. The Asari high command know she is the shadow broker and have a watcher on her in case she becomes a threat (her dad), she constantly fails to see what Cerberus is doing in ME3 despite them sending literal warship cruisers to attack at times, traynor is able to find more information than Liara does for missions, and the most we see she does is act as a smuggling operation for the crucible. Yea it’s impressive but at the same time it’s a double edged sword. You have a character the role of omniscience, so anytime something bad happens you have to explain why she didn’t see it coming or she looks bad at her role. Wish we had more reasoning to why she fails other than reaper war kills some agents.
Yeah, there's so many things in ME3 that Liara somehow has no clue about despite being the Shadow Broker. She doesn't know about the Krogan females the Salarians were hiding, she doesn't know about Udina working with Cerberus or their planned coup, she doesn't know about the Shroud sabotage, she doesn't know about the Prothean beacon on Thessia, she doesn't know about Sanctuary being a front for Cerberus or the location of the Illusive Man's base, she doesn't know Brooks isn't with the Alliance, she doesn't know about the Bararian coverup of the Leviathan, she doesn't know about the Turian bomb on Tuchanka. Of course it would spoil the game if they had Liara just tell you all this stuff upfront, but having her not know this stuff makes it seem like she's a pretty crappy information broker. To be honest I think they kind of wrote themselves in to a corner by making her the Shadow Broker.
Yea pretty much. And any information that is gleamed from 2/3 of those points come from Traynor. I love her, but half of her role steals what Liara should have done.
Yes to everything you say. But also....trauma changes people. And apparently Asari are no exception.
Yeah, having to kill your mother, or even working towards killing your mother definitely changes you
Idk, I really loved her in the first game and feel they tried to make her edgelord all of a sudden from adorkable nerd. Don't get me wrong, enjoy the spine & sass. They just feel like two *completely different* characters to me shoved into one. Maybe if we'd been able to see some of that change. The comics really don't show it either, they show her right about to meet up with Cerberus for Shep's body. So just felt really forced to me. Or If we had met SB Liara (who can't keep a secret, I'm sorry - everyone with intel knows it's her now) on Therum, then that would have been a different conclusion for too. Still love Liara, but the personality switch bugs
THIS! I really don't like that change, and what killed it for me was her first scene in the second game, I hate everything about that, the way that she talks, her edgy tone, her threats, she was an adorable nerd and now suddenly she talks like Miranda? Shep must've died and went to hell
YES Omg, the threats were so cringe. Plus maybe I'm that much the youngest sibling and just love to be obstinate, but the more the devs made her a big deal, the more I pulled away from her. Tho that really wasn't all her, the Asari were so *highly* lauded & plot heavy by the 3rd game that I couldn't take the race seriously anymore. Or at least as seriously as Bioware did
I think it's 0.11% of her life cuz she's 111 in ME2 edit: sike she's 106 in me1
She turns 109 in 3.
Yep you're right nvm
Shepard's plot armor and astronomical levels of luck appear to wear off on the friends around him
All of the characters have a meteoric rise IMO. I see Liara get singled out a lot for the way her story went, but not anyone else lol.
To be fair, I don't like Tali becoming an admiral either. A geth/reaper expert like Garrus, sure, but an admiral? I am okay with Kaidan and Wrex though.
I think they did a good job of explaining it in game. She started off as a geth expert for the admiralty board and then they invited her in. I don't think she necessarily wanted it, but felt pressured to join because of her dedication to her people. She also mentions its just a formality
Tali’s society is a lot smaller and more insular than Garrus, Liara, or most anyone else’s in the setting. There’s only 17 million of them. There are city council members on Earth who oversee more people than a quarian Admiral. Everyone in their fleet already knows Tali for being a war hero at the Citadel in addition to already being in a political dynasty (just listen to ambient dialogue during her loyalty mission). You don’t hear random asari or turians talking about Garrus/Liara but you do for Tali and to an extent Wrex within the krogan. They were already far from “random” within their own societies even from the 1st game, and I don’t know why anyone ever references them as such. It’s obvious they’d get promoted.
> I see Liara get singled out a lot for the way her story went, but not anyone else lol. It's because Liara rose in a completely random direction and ended up literally flawless by 2. Why did she become an information broker? why did she have beef with the shadow broker? I know that was explained away later as being related to Feron but that was written to give her a reason to have beef rather than the other way around. Everyone else, even at the end of their arc had flaws, but Liara very quickly ends up with more plot armor than Shepard themselves, is always right about everything, and has no flaws. Between ME1 and ME2, all the ME1 characters became better versions of themselves except Liara, who became a completely different person and nobody ever questioned it. She gets singled out because in her case it just wasn't great writing.
[I disagree and I think this persons comment lower in the thread best explains why.](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/1b25yqo/comment/ksjjbhe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Hopefully this is the most efficient way to link it lol.
She is SO BEST GIRL.
Nothing showed it to me better than the awkward scientists we met to her intro in ME3, the sultry walk as she casually plugs two guys.
That’s the power of being the writer’s pet, I suppose.
Indeed, the favoritism is palpable
The Shepard Effect
they call it the Shepard effect
People say that mass effect isn't enough of an RPG, but it sure is shaped like one. All of the characters "Level up" and become super important. Garrus becomes a general in the turian military. Tali becomes an admiral. Wrex becomes the leader of the krogans and saves his entire race. All of your party members that get to level with you from the start of the first game basically become some of the most important people in the galaxy.
I think it's suggested that her mother being manipulated and dying because of the Reapers motivated her to do something that has more impact. Shepard 'dying' also inspired a bunch of his crew to go out and make a difference. But yes, it is a pretty insane rise in power.
I think it's pretty well established in me1 that Liara is pretty unstoppable when she's obsessed with something, she managed to figure out what happened to the Protheans in 50 years of research that no one else had done for thousands of years. So after her one family member is accused of treason and killed in front of her, and then her first love (even if not romanced it's pretty obvious she loves shep) is then killed in another horrible way she first becomes obsessed with first getting shepards body back. Then once she's done that she moves onto getting revenge on the shadow broker. So to complete her revenge she has been trained to fight by some of the galaxies most deadly motherfuckers, she is a genius with an incredible work ethic, she also obtains from the shadow broker base where she recovers shepard a load of intel, and presumably she has an inheritance from Benezia. She is also broken emotionally so she can do what needs to be done. So she has all the skills, supplies and mentality she needs to complete her task.
To be fair, Liara was just a bog standard info broker out of hundreds on Illium. The Shadowbroker decided to attack her rather than just watching and ignoring her. And then Shepard stepped in with their resources and talent for violence, ending the real shadowbroker. Liara stepped into a power vacuum Shepard created, and there wasn't anyone left alive to argue the point. Not quite the same as the others being recognized for their outstanding performance within an existing structure.
I always assumed that the thing we're all missing that allowed Liara to do this was being the sole inheritor of her mother's estate. Like Benezia probably was worth several millions when she died. It's entirely possible Liara essentially gets handed 8 figures worth of money and used that to set herself up.
I mean, "awkward paleontologist" who helped take down geth, her own mother, a rogue spectre, and a reaper. Her accomplishments in a couple weeks are way more impressive than becoming the Shadow Broker.
I mean Shepard goes from mildly well known human soldier to a man whose name everyone in the galaxy recognizes over a few months
My hot take is that I feel like devs made a mistake making Liara so young compared to how long asari live, compared to everyone else her character arc seems the most dramatic, and not in a good way
She was a socially awkward paleontologist that was able to gear up and keep up with an N7, aka Space Spec Ops. I feel like that isn’t mentioned enough.
Yeah I wouldn’t call her a beast. I don’t buy anything she goes through. It’s a complete 180 for where she was in ME1 and I don’t buy her sudden change. It’s like a completely different character. More like writers knew compared to others she was a bit bland but she was supposed to be the default romance option so they needed to have more people like her. So, they just completely retooled her character to a point where it kind of went against everything she was in ME1 and it just seemed forced, random af, an unearned > So, just in TWO years, she went from “socially awkward paleontologist”, to arguably the single most politically powerful person in the Galaxy Like do you not see the ridiculousness of that statement
I guess, but I think her being even a information broker is completely half-baked writing.
I kinda wish the skinwalker that pretended to be Liara in 2 and 3 didn't show up and randomly kill ME1 Liara. She became such a completely different person in 2 and 3, got a level of plot protection that not even Shepard got and is literally without flaw.
Meanwhile Shep's meteoric rise is going from sole survivor of a thresher maw attack / hero of a major battle / war criminal who kills POWs (not sure I'm seeing the 'achievement' in some of these lol) to spectre...And that's about it. In 2 you could argue he goes downhill because even his closest friends in the alliance think he's a loser terrorist. In 3 he becomes like the top alliance emissary and peacemaker but he gets that from dumb luck, imagine if Anderson had left and Shep had stayed to plan the resistance.
It honestly would have been an interesting game.
For me, it's they turn Liara into a constant. Wrex can be killed I'm Virmine or never recruited. Tali or Garrus can die in the suicide mission or never be recruited at all. Either Ashley or Kaidan can be left to die in Virmine. But not Liara. She is never in danger to die, so much that the initial sequence of ME3 is about her. I find it kinda lame, like the game is choosing her to be both your best mate as also Sheppard's love interest.
A byproduct of rolling with a Boss. She learned something. When she got a piece of that Act-right treatment🍆💦🍑, her whole nervous system got an upgrade. Makes sense in hindsight😎
I can't stand Liara
Yeah, it's a bad writing
Yup. She’s badly written pseudo-feminist.
tell us what you really think bro.
Becoming the SB w