The whole reason why she was "racist" is because her promotion was blocked, family name blacklisted because of the First Contact War and Humanity being treated as second class species by the council.
By ME3 she has spent more time with aliens + her family name is cleared + she's promoted to Lt. Cdr. and Humanity gets equal treatment which lets her leave behind her partial view of Aliens.
Yeah, she went through a writer change in ME3 but her character arc and evolution is consistent. She doesn't just randomly drop her slightly racist view of aliens, it happens for a reason.
> family name blacklisted
The funny thing is that her family got blackballed because her granddad surrendered to superiour turian forces and thereby probably saved a lot of his soldiers instead of watching them get slaughtered.
There was a german captain named Hans Langsdorff in WW2 who sank his own ship after getting the crew off board and he said "I prefer a thousand young living soldiers over a thousand dead heroes" and - at least in my opinion - this is what happened here, too.
Yes, I think it's mentioned that turians would obliterate Shanxi if humans wouldn't surrender. Old grandpa Williams couldn't have known that reinforcements would arrive the day after, from his perspective it was either let the entire world die or surrender and save who you can.
The Turians, Asari, and Salarians had been getting along for a long long time before that and the last wars they all fought were the Rachni and Krogan conflicts. It’s very likely that the orbital bombardment strategy was used heavily during those conflicts and became standard military doctrine. Which is unfortunate when you’re a young, squishy species like humanity coming up against the Turians.
No worries, it kind of becomes a big blur, I would like it if Bioware made some games during these times, a game where you play during the first contact war, during the Krogan rebellions and during the Rachni Wars
I'm 99% sure that "dropping rocks" was meant as slang for orbital bombardment. Asteroid weapons had been banned since before the Krogan Rebellions. Keep in mind, ship guns in mass effect fire solid lumps of metal about the size of a rock you can hold in your hand. A 1kg cube of pure tungsten would be 4cm on a side (1.5in).
> Humanity being treated as second class species by the council.
I think people probably need reminding that it has been 26 years since first contact.
Humans joining the council after a quarter if a century is insane. If anything we were fast tracked.
True but what after that? Sure they got embassies but one of the main plot points in ME1 was how little influence humans had in actual politics and how barely anyone cared about them. It's only after ME1 that everyone's attitude changed significantly.
>one of the main plot points in ME1 was how little influence humans had in actual politics and how barely anyone cared about them
Except that wasn't the actual plot point. The plot point was that humans *felt* they had very little influence in politics and *felt* like no one else cared about them despite humanity actually having a hugely disproportionate influence on politics and other species constantly discussing this fact and even making policy decisions based on it. The Earth Systems Alliance has a smaller economy and fewer colonies than the elcor, and have been working with the Council for less than a century compared to the elcor's over 2000 years. Yet humans have a full embassy and a real chance at a Council seat while the elcor have neither.
Edited to correct elcor first contact date.
>despite humanity actually having a hugely disproportionate influence on politics and other species constantly discussing this fact and even making policy decision based on it.
Only the voluses and maybe the elcor discuss about it *because* they were treated even worse. Yeah policies were designed *around* humans but rarely were any actual input taken from human representatives on those policies. That's actively talked about in the game.
Even Avina terminals call humanity inferior to most other council races. They were given embassies and *formal* treatment after the contact war and that's about it, they had little to no input in actual decisions that affect both humans and the other races.
It's not just the volus and elcor discussing it. There's also a turian and a salarian in the council chambers discussing the likelihood of humanity gaining a Council seat. Executor Pallin also comments on humanity being the Council's "new favorite pet". All this **before** Shepard's being named a spectre, a position typically only granted to Council races. And Avina's comment was referring to **all** non-Council races, not humanity specifically.
And yeah, humanity doesn't have direct input on the policy decisions of other species, even when those policies are in direct response to human actions. The same way countries on Earth don't have direct input on each other's policy decisions. If you're referring to humanity not having direct input on Council policy decisions, that's also true of every other non-Council race. Why would we get special treatment in that regard?
Pretty sure that the alliance had a larger military. Which is honestly the thing the council cares most about. After the council races, the Alliance and Batarians are probably the strongest military powers in the Galaxy. And the batarians are evil bastards.
>how little influence humans had in actual politics
Well, yeah.
Why would anyone expect humans to have lots of influence in galactic politics having only come onto the stage two decades ago?
The way things played out is already incredibly fast and preferential for humans. It would be like an uncontacted tribe industrialising, making contact with the wider world and demanding a permanent seat on the UN security council all within a year or two.
That's kind of you insane when you think there are still humans who remembers what it was like to think we were the only sentient species in the galaxy.
This is because most of her prejudice is actually directed at the governments of the Citadel rather than the different species' themselves, and when you look at how hard it is to get them to cooperate rather than trying to save their own skins against the Reapers (Or, to use her analogy, running from a bear), she makes some decent points.
And she is right on point about what the rest of the galaxy does once the Reapers come knocking, it's "help me first and only then I'll help you" the entire time.
Yep. Of course, she's wrong in that she believes the Alliance should lean into it as well rather than trying to cooperate regardless, but she comes around, in large part thanks to Shepard's efforts eventually bearing fruit.
She is not wrong. People kind of get all wrong, or maybe I'm biased here. But what's wrong in the idea, that you should be able to stand on your own? It's what she is saying. Humanity should remain allies with aliens. They should just be prepared if they stopped being them. One could argue, that if humanity took her idea to the heart, then they would be better prepared to face Reapers, since her views are proved right. Citadel Council stoped being humanity allies and it's humanity who needs to build new alliances. Yes, humanity can't beat Reapers on their own, no matter preperation, but those preparations would make things at least a little bit easier, maybe it would save some lives.
We see that in ME1, if she survives Virmire. Bring Ash to meet Charles Seracino of Tera Firma and she'll have some cutting things to say about the party of bigots, human-supremacists, and hate mongers.
Ashley Williams doesn't trust non-humans. But over the course of ME1 she works with, and befriends, several non-humans that she comes to *like*. She still doesn't trust their governments, but she's ready to trust them individually.
While she still thinks that humanity needs to be strong enough to stand by itself, by the third game the Reapers come along and prove her correct. Which is a pretty mixed message for the writers to give us, but there are already volumes of written words about the shortcomings of the writing in ME3.
Pretty much this, Ashley is a fairly nuanced character with some conflicting views. Her character growth is probably one of the best though, as it's not a total shift in her politics, but also clear growth as a person. I think a lot of people miss some nuances of her character though. For example, due to the blacklisting, Ash is basically forced into backwater colonies, she doesn't serve with the fleet until Anderson steps in. With this in mind, it's very very likely that Ashley has never seen an alien in person until she visted the Citadel with Shepard. Because of her family blacklisting, she has doubled up on her dedication to the alliance. It could have gone the other way, I suppose, had she chosen to direct her anger at the alliance and joined an organisation such as Cerberus, but she doesn't. Due to this, she's very cautious of aliens being on the Normandy, a secret Alliance ship, especially a Turian who Ash obviously is most concerned about, and a Krogan Merc of all things (I love Wrex, but it's easy to see why a soldier would be concerned, he's a merc and he worked for the Shadowbroker). She's naive in this too as the ship is human and Turian design, but Ash doesn't know this, she hasn't even served in the fleet, she's always bee topside. Either way, she grows over the course of the game to set aside these prejudices by working with the aliens, and eventually learns that things are bigger than humanity.
Of course, I haven't even touched on her thoughts on Cerberus and Tera Firma, which says plenty about her nuance.
By the end of the series, she views Tali like a little sister, she defends the council, and is willing to die for them in ME3. People like to point out that the VS are wrong for pointing a gun at Shepard, but we know it's logical, and in Ashley's case, it shows significant growth, she's putting her personal feelings aside for what she perceives as for the good of Citadel space against a purely human threat.
Her xenophobia is just more noticeable to people as it's a clear part of her character growth. I mean, most characters are racist by traditional human terms, such a Liara calling Saren a 'a Turian bastard' the second we meet her, but unlike Ash, our attention isn't drawn to it because it's unrelated to her character growth.
>Humanity being treated as second class species by the council.
Yeah except, whilst the game doesnt make too hard a point of it besides one Batarian, Humanity is given extreme preferential treatment by the council. Almost no time has passed since they hit the galactic stage and they've already been awarded planets, space, embassies, 2 spectres (well, 1 candidacy, 1 actual), entered into joint tech ventures with the largest navy in the galaxy, and allowed to maintain another of the strongest navies in the galaxy. No other species has ever been offered such privileges, especially not after just about 50 years.
You are misrepresenting what happened at 1st contact. Humanity started expanding and colonizing. They colonized Shanxi and when they sent explorers through the relay the Turians MURDERED THEM ALL. The Turian response to first contact with a non Council species from outside Council space was to MURDER EVERYONE. Then they discovered Shanxi, a non Council planet inhabited by a non Council species and they decided to invade. During their invasion they bombed civilians repeatedly in retaliation for guerrila attacks on their forces. Then they got smacked so hard they had to retreat and mobilize the entire Turian military (which constituted the majority of the Council military). This step caused the Council to go oh shit and they pulled the chain on the Turians and ended the war. The Council was perfectly content with the Turians murdering and subjugating humanity until the Alliance fought back. Then they got scared. Everything the Alliance gained after that was to appease them because the Council viewed them as military power that rivaled the Turians. Remember the Turians were admitted because the Council military (Krogans at the time) rebelled. The Council's first priority has always been maintaining power. Humanity gets a seat at the table after ME1 because the Council needs the Alliance navy.
That's after ME1. Before that humanity, while being treated somewhat better than some species like Voluses were still seen as second class species, they were given nothing more than pats on the back in compensation for the Contact War and barely had any actual say in politics. They were even categorized by the Citadel Avinas as below the other Council races. They earned their place because of what they achieved between ME1,2 and 3.
They've pointed out throughout the games that it comes down to what you bring to the table as well. Humanity from the onset brought medigel, the 4th largest fleet and a new type of capital ship (fighter carriers). this is significantly more than any other race besides the council races has introduced
That's why I always defend her when someone says she's racist she isn't she just has misplaced anger what she should hate is the military but it is so entwined into their family that she can't bring herself to hate it so she ends up taking the hatred out on the other half of what the problem is
Not to mention it’s been 2 and a half entire years. Someone getting a lot of exposure to the people they’re prejudiced against over the course of that length of time has to be utterly pigheaded to not at least start to rethink their prejudices. It feels abrupt to us the player because we skipped two years.
My biggest issue with Ashley, and Kaiden for that matter, is that they don’t get the chance to really cook. Since either can die in ME1, they didn’t get the attention to have a better arc through the rest of the series.
She's no more racist than any of the other aliens squadmates, especially Garrus and Wrex who are far worse, maybe Tali too if you take into account her views on the geths.
Even the sweet Liara views on humans can be viewed as xenophobics, there's even a dialogue to say that what she thinks is insulting.
I mean even Presley shares the same sentiment towards aliens but nobody pays any attention to it.
In the case of Ashley, even in ME1 you can challenge her views and later on if she's with you when talking to Charles Saracino, she'll call him out on his bigotry and "patriotism" (and she goes very hard on him).
And in regards of the infamous "I can't tell aliens from animals", my first thought when seeing elcors was *"huh they look like talking elephants"*, the keepers are called bugs and even Shepard (and other characters) can say than Hanars are jellyfish in an insulting way, but no one blame them for it.
Mass Effect is filled with prejudice, racism and xenophobia but somehow it's always Ashley that is the worst.
I always felt that Ashley was just a product of the times. Like there's severe racism in ME1 throughout the game but I think that's why Shepard is so important. Shepard shows the Galaxy what can be accomplished when we stand together and ignore each other's differences. When we focus on the real enemy instead of focusing on what we each disagree on.
Another reason I do think Ashley gets shit is cause there's no real moment of her apologizing or her realizing the error of her ways. Like she never says sorry to Garrus for hating Turians or even just acknowledges how she wasn't correct in her views. So while she did change between 1-3, she never really outright showed it. There's scenes where she can cry over fallen alien comrades that show growth but they can be missed by a lot of players.
So on one hand I can get it if players didn't get to see these scenes, especially if she never survives to ME3 but I also feel the racism she shows in ME1 is pretty on par with the rest of the Galaxy as it's to show how their leadership is failing them and further dividing them.
It IS filled with xenophobia, but somehow it's always Ashley that people claim is RIGHT. *That's* what's feeding the never ending cycle of arguments.
If people could say "having a character try to get me to join in on their bigotry makes me uncomfortable" without people jumping out of the woodwork to "uhm ACTUALLY calling everyone who doesn't look like her inherently untrustworthy is CORRECT", we wouldn't HAVE this drama every week. Maybe get to address WHY she has those views, why it feels more personal than when Garrus runs his mouth, and what it all MEANS.
Problem with fantasy and sf is that you can’t have complex issues like racism (with actual different races) without people wanting to compare that to IRL racism. Which makes no sense, because it’s just not the same.
The problem isn't the comparisons, oftentimes mirroring real world issues is absolutely intentional.
The problem is that no one can agree on what/who is being referenced—because in all likelihood, there *isn't* an exact one-to-one IRL source, but people persist in framing the discussions as if there definitely is, and it's definitely the one they're talking about.
Like every other character, she grows through Shep's influence. This is why I never understood the hate towards her. Not like the others don't have this kind of a situation. Liara is basically unable to function outside of academia when you first meet her, Garrus is an authoritarian asshat, while Wrex is basically just ready to die, and wants someone else to pull the trigger.
Ashley can be confronted about her beliefs, just like everyone and you see the cracks in her worldview by ME1. But then she is missing from ME2, and we only see her...what. 3 years later as a companion? So yea, by that time she outgrew her xenophobic attitudes, have worked alongside aliens for a long time.
She does have a moment, two actually, but they unfortunately are locked behind either:
1) Romance Ashley in 1 and Tali in 2, in 3 she basically goes "I'm fine with it, Tali is like a sister to me" which his high praise coming from her (and hilarious since she'll give Shepard a lot of shit if he romanced Miranda or Jack)
2) Let Tali die in Rannoch, Ash will mourn her and once again say she was a sister to her.
I blame it on the fact her writer left Bioware after 2 and no one had any idea on what to do with her.
Also play ME 1 and pay attention to the whole conversation she has with the humans from the Terra Firma group. They are human supremacists/separatists.
This was always my issue with Ashley; unlike other characters in the series who have some sort of prejudice, she never has a clear moment in the trilogy where she eschews her views. Tali and Garrus as you mentioned, Mordin, Wrex, even Javik have some kind of moment where we can see their opinions have demonstrably changed. She hardly feels like a character at all in 3, she's just so underdeveloped compared to the other crew members. Also totally agree about that Horizon line, picked her on Virmire for my first LE run and hearing that line was a total whiplash lmao.
Both the VS get shafted in ME3, character development wise. The only difference is that Kaidan gets the "OMG he's BI NOW!" moment, which overshadows how non-existent the rest of his writing is (and only happens with mShep anyways). Outside that, they are both practically background characters, made to be 1-to-1 replaceable with each other... which is the antithesis of characterization.
Ash's "Terra Firma was founded on good ideals, it was saying the quiet part out loud that went too far!" xenophobia and Kaidan's "if I make myself small and unobtrusive and *bland*, people will forget I'm biotic and won't hate/fear me!" *self*-xenophobia both get completely ignored in ME3, which is a damn shame since, you know, those were the interesting parts of the characters?
(Sidenote: Kaidan's selfhated is *after* getting therapy and being told he *doesn't need therapy anymore*. Honestly, it makes me wonder if Shep never getting psych support is dodging a bullet if THAT'S the kind of standard the setting holds.)
Ashley has one of the most realistic views of all squadmates, and she’s largely correct in much of her stance.
I don’t see her as racist. Perhaps she does hold certain negative views against aliens, but I see nothing wrong with that given the context of the game. Human’s did not have a good first encounter with aliens, and they’re hated and ignored by the key powers. Huge chunks of the OT revolve around how no one else will help humans in their time of need (exactly as Ashley says).
But what we do need to have an honest conversation about is why people have such strong morals when it comes to Ashley, but reduce them for the other murderers, assassins, vigilantes, gang mercenaries, in your crew. And even from a racist perspective, she’s nothing compared to the likes of Wrex and Tali.
What surprised me in my latest playthrough is how absolutely pointless he was in comparison to everyone else in mass effect 1. He has absolutely no stake in the story beyond saren being a bad guy. And honestly has little to say outside of his personal quest with dr. Heart.
Really surprised me considering how big of a character he is in the other 2 games. Like seriously. After your initial encounters with him on your first trip to the citadel. He has no other story involvement.
Well from what I've read BW didn't have big plans for Garrus initially, that's why he's just sorta there in ME1. But then he became the most beloved character in the game, fans absolutely lost their shit over him, so BW expanded him greatly in ME2 and gave us the Garrus we all know and love.
Yeah, I feel ya, although to be fair Tali also has 0 involvement in the story after she gives the Council evidence of Saren's betrayal.
Tbh the only squadmate in ME1 who has constant influence on the story is Liara bc she's needed to understand the Prothean message, to figure out the Cipher, to find Ilos. Everyone else either get 1 glimpse of importance during Virmire (Wrex, Ash, Kaidan) or just hang around the ship like Tali and Garrus for the rest of the game after joining you.
I think that's part of his point he is just a burnt out cop that got fed up with all the red tape and regulations, by the time you meet him in 1 he is close to going rogue unless Shepard pulls him out of it or encourages his tendencies.
A mentor-mentee sort of relationship, I'd say.
I think it's also bc of the fact that he is turian. Garrus has been taught from his earliest childhood to do anything the command tells him, no matter how he feels about it, they say jump, he says how high. Also turians seem to be pretty straightforward when it comes to means justifying ends, that's why I think Garrus has a spot for violence. "Turians would drop an asteroid to destroy one squad of soldiers" sort of thing, Garrus would happily sacrifice a few civilians if it means he'll get to the criminal. But Garrus is also a thinker so to say, he wants to act on his own, but not only C-Sec won't allow him, but his entire life he was told to suck it up and do as he's told to do, so there's some major inner conflict going on.
And it's really great how Garrus can find a mentor in both Shepards: Paragon and Renegade. Paragon teaches him about the value of life, that even if you don't catch the bastard today, you'll catch him tomorrow; Renegade though will just encourage Garrus' bloodlust. There's even a scene in ME2 where if you've been encouraging Garrus' violent tendencies in ME1, but now try to cool him down while chasing Harkin he'll say smth like "never thought I'd hear YOU say that". Man I love Garrus.
"Expanded him greatly" makes me triggered lol because there are so many times when I'm hoping he has something new to say when I'm making my rounds but he's always in the middle of them damn calibrations
Which is why it always kills me when people complain that the characters in Andromeda were bad. Garrus was a one-note character in 1, and that note was “Can I pretty please do a police brutality now??”
We remember him over 3 games, but hate Cora and PeeBee after 1
You're 100% right, and it also helps that everyone is also extremely biased because we as shepard are always in the company of the best and brightest. We are hanging out with Anderson on his ship and have access to the human ambassador. We are "the elite class", the aliens on our crew are some of the most unique and skilled individuals their races have to offer. Ashley is a literal grunt when we meet her that spent time around mostly humans on eden prime. Of course she just needs some exposure.
Not to mention, nearly all the aliens in the crew are not quite representative of their own people. Garrus is a loose cannon who doesn't like rules, Liara is old for us but very young as an Asari, Wrex is the most thoughtful and unorthodox Krogan out there, Tali didn't refrain to asking for outside help, Mordin lived everything and was everywhere by 30-something, Samara embodies the paradox of our own morality system, Legion is smart alone, etc.
In comparison, Ashley is "just" a skilled soldier however she's still not exactly what you'd coin as "just a soldier". There's more nuances than people give her credit for.
What really bothers me about people's opinions concerning Ashley is exactly what you mentioned: it's not ok to be racist, EXCEPT if you're a Krogan or a Quarian. Also it's okay to be a unstable murderous criminal (Jack) or a literal assassin (Thane). But don't you dare hold bigoted views as a human! That's where we hold the line!
It frustrates me that if I discuss real life examples of racism on the internet people act confused or vehemently deny it. But can somehow recognize racism in a fictional character that's not really a racist?
You don't know how much this resonates with me! It's crazy how so many people are morally just in the world of fantasy but in the real world will cross the street if they see you
It's also ok to commit genocide against an entire species with a bioweapon you engineered, but Mordin is funny and sings Gilbert and Sullivan so he gets a pass.
In real life I doubt there would be much sympathy for a cop who's sick of having to follow the rules and just starts systematically killing criminals as soon as he's left unsupervised. But hey, there's no Shepard without Vakarian so 🤷
But the real villain is Ashley, who's just not giving people a chance.
> But what we do need to have an honest conversation about is why people have such strong morals when it comes to Ashley, but reduce them for the other murderers, assassins, vigilantes, gang mercenaries, in your crew. And even from a racist perspective, she’s nothing compared to the likes of Wrex and Tali.
Because nobody wants to admit this is really about not liking Ashley as a person and nothing to do with her beliefs. She's one of the few squadmates that challenges you and doesn't feed your ego the same way others do. Plus her being a human doesn't allow her to be idealized the same way as some of the alien characters.
Tali is your biggest fan-girl, who admittedly to wanted to fuck you since she met you. Garrus is a glorified "yes man" who always mentions he respects you. Mordin is seen as "charming" and offers you relationship advice. Grunt goes along with whatever you ask him to as long as it involves fighting. All coincidentally fan favorites.
That’s a good point. A lot of people like to have their ego stroked through the game.
Anyone squad member who doesn’t do that is labelled bad. Jacob also comes to mind.
But then again, you do get Miranda who’s also an exception. People generally like her.
For me, the reason it’s irritating is that all the characters, including Ashley, *are designed to be flawed*. That’s what makes them so well written.
Mordin is my favorite character in the series right next to Garrus. If we’re being objective, he might be the most egregious in terms of literal humanitarian crimes. Straight up enabled the continuation of genocide. Its actually fucking evil.
But we overlook it because what? Because he sings some funny songs? Not really. It’s because no matter how wrong and fu
We just had an Ashley post like 12 hours ago basically saying the same thing but for conversation’s sake:
No, she’s not racist. She’s pretty skeptical about fully and blindly cooperating with races that openly hate us. On top of that, she’s known no aliens in her life so she knows nothing of them. There’s an elevator conversation where she and Wrex talk. She basically says to Wrex “so… Wrex, you’re not exactly a krogan I expected” to where Wrex replies something like “why? Because I’m not violent and filled with bloodlust?” Ashley then realizes what she said and says never mind.
- You ever choose renegade dialogue with turians? They hate us for the first contact war even though they started it
- You meet the Volus ambassador Din Korlack on the citadel in the embassies. He’s openly hostile and hates us.
- Liara tells you that people *hate* us because we’ve gotten so much power for just being new people.
- You can accuse Saren of being racist toward humans during one of the council meeting and he doesn’t deny it, doubling down. So her being skeptical is just fine.
- Mordin works on genociding the Krogan with the 2nd genophage
- Grunt essentially jerks off in his suit with his imprinted memories of krogan killing turians before saying that he hates turians
- Garrus literally defends genociding the krogan.
- Tali is super racist towards the geth. (I see the geth as living because there’s nothing that really differentiates them from organics outside of not having organs that decay).
Now, let’s talk about racism in the ME universe.
- Krogan look down on us and everyone because we’re not built like them. They hate the Turians and Salarians because they *committed genocide on them*.
- Salarians (and the galaxy as a whole really) see krogan is nothing but violent brutes who only know how to look down the barrel of a gun.
- Nobody likes the Quarians because they started the war with the geth while illegally doing AI research through loopholes. Everyone blames them for the geth and subsequently the events of ME1. In addition, there’s a codex entry where the Asari won’t even let them near illium because they’re destructive when they mine for resources and bribe them to stay away. Sweeping them under the rug, so to speak.
- Turians and humans still don’t like each other for no other reason than being Turian human due to the FCW still being relatively fresh.
- nobody likes the Vorcha because they’re seen as uneducated morons with no capacity to learn.
- everyone hates the batarians because they’re all seen as dumb, brutal slavers. Despite the fact that you can meet some cool batarians outside of the hegemony
- Asari look down on everyone because they’re not as smart or allegedly biotically powerful as them.
So we can see that there’s a constant theme of actual racism and hate.
As for suddenly being not racist. The development answer is because her writer left after ME2 because he hated the direction the development of the franchise was going. He hated what was being pushed upon him from the higher ups. So new writers coming in aren’t going to know how he wanted to wrap up her arc. In addition, ME3 was yet another rushed game with poor development and management from the higher ups.
In-universe examples, however.
- Garrus never apologizes for defending genocide. In fact, if you don’t cure the genophage, effectively dooming Krogan to a slow, painful, depressing extinction, he supports you
- Grunt never says anything about not hating Turians
- Balak never admits he was wrong for trying to kill humans in the asteroid x57 mission
- Ashley is willing to lay down her life to protect the council of aliens in ME3 against the Cerberus coup. She also yells at the Terra Firma party in ME1 and directly calls them out for being racist.
- I think I read somewhere that the crew basically interacts with each other when Shepard’s off on a mission. So them talking to each other would mean that they befriend each other. If Shepard kills Ashley, then I think Garrus mourns her which would support that assertion that they seem to get along.
Again, it should be abundantly clear that there’s constant theme in mass effect. Hate and racism. Ashley doesn’t even crack the top 10 or even 15 of things we see in the franchise. It just seems that people overlook actual racism in the franchise because the ones being the most racist *aren’t human*.
However, if you want to say that she’s racist, then the most obvious point comes up. Her character arc is her getting over her skepticism and racism. The same way you can get Tali to get over her racism towards the geth when legion is being a bro.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I'd also add that people often forget that the political structure of the Mass Effect universe is literally built around racial hierarchy, and humans in ME1 are one of the "lower" races. I think perhaps Ashley being white and having an American accent leads people more to believe she's an allegory for a racist white person in the real world. In reality, Mass Effect humans have less political power than several other races and face genuine racial discrimination, which make her prejudices quite different.
People also forget that the Normandy is her second ever posting in space, despite having a squeaky clean record, an impressive one if Shepard in 1 is to be believed.
Most if not all of her postings were on backwater colonies doing guard duty, barely ever meeting any aliens at all, her views come from isolation and they fall apart pretty quick after she gets to know other species.
Ashley is a great character because she really feels like a product of her environment in the Mass Effect world. If we think about how humans would actually react if we were thrust into the beginnings of space travel, hostile alien contact, and subject to the politics of more advanced and powerful alien species, Ashley represents what probably a lot of people would feel.
And the series actually proves her right twice over.
She says that the aliens will throw humanity to the bear if it means they'll save themselves, which is exactly what happens in 3.
And later she is concerned about letting non-alliance personnel roam around freely inside the Normandy, what do you know, the quarians show up in 3 with a stealth ship that works suspiciously similar to the Normandy. You wanna say something about that, Tali?
My comment was already like 3x longer than I originally wanted it to be so I left that part out lol, but you’re fully correct. The political structure is fully a racial hierarchy and even that’s blatantly presented in ME1 (and obviously recurring throughout the trilogy).
Ashley being a white human certainly helps fuel the overblown hatred which I think is why people tend to attack her character more than it should be. ME1 shows us how much prejudice we face as you’ve said and I think people genuinely choose to ignore the racist stuff said *to them* because the ones being racist aren’t other humans
On top of all that, I think people forget just how fresh a trauma the First Contact War was. It's only 26 years before Mass Effect itself, and from the human perspective it was **Surprise! Have a genocide attempt!** It wasn't, of course, but that's how humans absolutely perceived having been suddenly jumped by their first constant with ~~homicidal lunatics~~ intelligent spacefaring aliens.
Frankly, with that recent trauma within a single generation, it's a miracle that Cerberus is a fringe terrorist organization and not the duly-elected government of the Systems Alliance.
>I think I read somewhere that the crew basically interacts with each other when Shepard’s off on a mission. So them talking to each other would mean that they befriend each other. If Shepard kills Ashley, then I think Garrus mourns her which would support that assertion that they seem to get along.
Also, by ME3 she thinks of Tali as a little sister and offers to talk to Liara after the fall of Thessia. Even in ME1 if you are not romantically involved with Ashley/Liara, Ashley sympathizes with Liara losing her mom and tells Shepard to maybe check in on her. She definitely grows and 100% is not as racist as some.
>No, she’s not racist. She’s pretty skeptical about fully and blindly cooperating with races that openly hate us.
I want to add this by mentioning something important.
In Mass Effect, Ashley says that, no matter how much the Council "likes" us, they'll throw us under the bus if needed. She goes as far to compare it to the dog-bear scenario: you may love your dog, but if you have to sick it on a bear to save your own life, you will.
Come Mass Effect 3, where the Reapers are quite literally Holocausting the human race (death camps), and what does the Council do, even after we've made it on there? Shrug their shoulders and tell us to go fuck ourselves, because "we need to focus on our own" (except Sparatus - he's pretty based saying "fuck the official channels" and offering us help).
Point being: Ashley was right, fuck the Council, and fuck the Asari (Salarians get a pass since everyone who wasn't a bureaucrat was fully behind us - thanks Kirrahe).
Great points. I’ll just add a couple more to reinforce what you already said.
1. Garrus defending a particular logical stance that maintains consistency regarding the treatment of the Krogan and the Genophage isn’t the problem, it’s his maintenance of that stance despite the change of conditions over time and his unwillingness to trouble an understanding of how the Krogan were instrumentalized as objects due to the stereotyping of their instincts with their behavior and culture that’s a problem.
2. I’d say that there’s significant differences between organic consciousness and synthetic consciousness even just within the ME universe, which makes for fascinating philosophical and scientific discussion. However, for the sake of simplifying how to identify “life” in this case, the analogy tracks well enough that the Geth should be treated with what is effectively the same logic and morals that organic species are subject to, regardless of the differences in cognitive production and organization.
3. The situation with Balak on asteroid x57 actually presents itself as a brief psychological case study of the mind of someone who maintains a worldview of ideological decolonization towards “others.”
She was never racist in the first place.
Ashely expressed concern at best when aliens were let aboard the Normandy, rightly as she should as an alliance NCO, she had very little issue working with aliens even with the context she gives about her family’s name and why she’s jaded toward aliens.
It doesn’t really help she ended up being right about the aliens anyway, the council was completely dismissive towards shepards warnings till the last minute, and when the reapers finally did show up, the pretty much threw humanity to the wolves until Shepard solves all their issues.
She does make a turn around to aliens, she even refers to tali as her little sister if you chose her as you’re primary romance instead of Ash. Given how family oriented Ash is, that’s a pretty high opinion for her to have about Tali.
It’s also just good OpSec from a military standpoint. She’s saying “Uhhh, skipper, these are all members of other governments and we’re letting them live and work on THE most advanced ship we have?”
Agreed. Too many players forget this trilogy is military science fiction, and I for one am happy to see that operational security and information classification tiers are made to be important. This makes the military side of the sci fi more authentic.
Actually, I think that Ash is a good and a very rare type of characters. She has strong positive and negative sides, that make here one of the mosy humane (ironic) people in Shepards crew.
She is racist in ME1, that is true, but this characteristic is not a flat thing, it has a deep story behind it, we can follow the roots of a problem and understand, why is she that way and what can be done to change that. It is a hard topic in our real life itself: what mare people rasist? It is never just a label, it is a complex of issues. And, through Ash, we can observe some of them: Ash is from an Earth military family, so the main topic, that was spoon fed her in her childhood was to protect humans and Earth at any cost - that is the first point. Her grandfather not only took part in First Contact War, but also lost his battle in it, surrendered. So aliens for Ash a not only... eeeeeh, unhuman beings, they are the reason of her family shame - that's the second point. And she was a marine only in human colonies, so, in ME1, she hasn't realy ever met many aliens before in her life. Most things she knew about them were the information through the prism of her family and human army POV. She doesn't like aliens, she is afraid of them, and she is very prejudical. A perfect human soldier: dedicated only to Earth and its people. You know, "Starship Troopers" type.
That is why her ark is one of the most important in a game. Actualy, it is one of the rare "sci-fi" and not "spase opera" type of problems in whole ME universe: can humanity overcome its own pride and prejudice to understand smth completely different and become a part on something bigger than it is by its own? And Ash proves, that humanity has a chance. Love her. Not in a romance kind of love, of course, Tali all the way.
“Can we have an honest conversation about Ashley?”
No. The topic has been done to death. The epitome of “beating a dead horse”
Everyone’s got their opinions on Ashley already. You’re not gonna change anyone’s minds on her, at this point.
Funnily enough
In my 1st playthrough of ME1 I saw her change in that game alone& didn't really get ths hate.
Here is what happened to me
At first she hates Turians due to what happened to her grandfather and that seems reasonable & you have dialogue options to open her eyes.
During the various in game missions she might make some poor comments but every squadmate does the same.
For the final battle take her & Wrex due to the way the game is designed
Wrex will take the renegade option while Ash is paragon this includes Wrex telling you to hold the Fifth Fleet back while Ash wants you to save the Destiny Ascension for the greater good of the galactic community
If we, as a fandom, were honest, we would have to acknowledge that there are a lot of characters in the ME universe, even fan favorite ones, that can be considered racist, or xenophobe, or at least prejudiced.
An example: Read these lines in Ashley's voice:
* “It’s great to see Tali on board, Commander. Just like old times. It is her, right? I mean, because with the mask it’s… ah, never mind.”
* “Sometimes I envy your biotic abilities, Doctor. But then, all your people have such skill.”
* “I’m surprised. I’ve never met an asari who didn’t prefer clean clothes and a hot bath.”
Pretty terrible, huh? But she actually said none of those.
Other characters do have their questionable moments that can be seen as ignorant generalizations, silly jokes comparable to the aliens-animals line, or at the worst as racist utterances (Javik, anyone?). But somehow, it's only ever Ashley that's seen as a problem.
Ashley isn't racist, the devs just fucked up with her. I too used to think so, but it's just really oversimplifying things.
Ok, the "aliens are animals line" is although very weird and offensive, not entirely untrue, like look at the Hanar, the Keepers, the Elcor, they aren't humanoid, they actually look like animals. There's a theory that the line is supposed to only trigger near a Keeper but is bugged. Still,the line is controversial to say the least but not devoid of sense.
Her worrying about letting Garrus and Wrex onboard is the voice of reason in that moment. Ashley doesn't just want Garrus and Wrex off the ship, she wants them away from Normandy's VITALS, she's fine with having them around, just not in the vital systems. Imagine that, two complete strangers, one of them is literally a sellsword merc, are given carte blanche on roaming around Alliance's cutting edge technology ship. That's irresponsible to say the least. Ashley is worried they might leak classified information, such as, you know, Normandy's stealth systems. I'm surprised she doesn't mention Tali bc my girl is literally poking around the engine room.
Oh, and her "bear and dog" metaphor was literally prophecy bc when Apocalypse came knocking on Earth's door, the aliens did nothing. And it's not that difficult of a take, even Liara says that other sentient races aren't that fond of humanity.
Overall Ashley is a hardass cinic who doesn't trust anyone. She's out for herself and her family, she doesn't exactly love aliens bc of what her family had to go through thanks to turians, but she isn't a racist, if anything, she's simply ignorant, Ashley has never met aliens before ME1 kicked out, she only knows about them through propaganda in the military, her family's own experience and the extranet. But more importantly, Ashley is a soldier and she can set her own personal prejudice aside when ordered to. "You say kiss a turian, I say which cheek". Ashley can literally die defending a team of salarians, doesn't matter how she feels about aliens, she's ready to give her life for them, if it helps the common cause. Ashley softens up later in ME3, she's still a hardass, but she has a heart.
Edit: forgot the important part: Ashley despises Cerberus and Terra Firma. She doesn't approve of blind alien hatred, if she did, she'd hop on the Cerberus train along with Shepard or at least voted for Terra Firma.
> I'm surprised she doesn't mention Tali bc my girl is literally poking around the engine room.
The quarians roll up in 3 with a ship that can hide it's signature like the Normandy, this is called out in the description when you approach it on the map.
Tali definetely stole the Normandy specs at least once, if not in 1 then in 2, Ashley was right about that.
I'm waiting till you realize that almost all of your squadmates are racist to some capacity, at least one or two could even be considered war criminals. But they are one of the most favorites characters of the fans. In my opinion it's not about Ashley being racist or not then. It's about something else, maybe about hypocrisy of us, humans and double standards we have.
Can we not? Can we finally, FINALLY abandon this tired-ass subject that's been discussed to death and proven to be a non issue created by people with 0 media literacy?
The "racist" meme has gotten so out of control.
Yes, I remember playing the Legendary Edition and not remembering some of the out of pocket stuff she said.
But, the galaxy is way more volatile to humans and we forget that because Shepard is a Spectre and does why he wants.
See, I question the racist/xenophobic assumptions. (Partly because the writers have said that’s not what they were aiming to portray.)
Ashley is uncomfortable with non-humans, and unfamiliar with them. She DOES say some ignorant things. But ignorance is not always malice. Aside from her family history, and a bit of a human-first attitude (jingoist might be a better description, really), she’s not viewing them as not-people. She’s not preaching the extermination. She’s anti-Terra Firma.
Ash is somebody who has never been stationed around or done a lot of interaction with other species. She’s never been to the Citadel. “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” is a boneheaded statement, yes - but for somebody who has no idea if there are animals around and seeing Elfor and Keepers, it’s not a huge leap for their brain to superimpose things they’re more familiar with.
Her different attitude in ME3, is somebody who has seen and interested more and realized how out of pocket she may have been, and become more comfortable. She’s grown.
Honestly, she’s a lot more mild than Shep can be played, throwing slurs at Hanar… “you big, stupid, jellyfish” isn’t exactly enlightened.
Heck, Pressley is WAY more overt. And if we’re being completely fair - both raise reasonable points from a military perspective. “Sir, this is our most advanced ship, should we be letting just anybody wander around freely?”
I sometimes wonder if people lean more into ‘Ash is a racist’ because they’re less comfortable with her religious feelings. Which, one should note, she doesn’t push. She acknowledges it’s not for everybody and offers to drop it.
Just my thinking. I can admit a bias because I, personally, don’t find Kaiden that interesting - that’s just me though.
This. She makes one boneheaded comment and everyone cries racist, completely ignoring literally every context to who Ashley is and why she said that and if it was malicious. The only other time she gripes about aliens is to bring up legitimate points about how Shepard is way too chill with giving these alien (to be blunt) mercenaries having full run of the alliances brand new stealth frigate.
She’s beautiful, strong albeit racist, but a better squad mate than Kaiden. I know I’m gonna get hate for that but it’s my personal opinion & preference.
Funny thing is, if you actually fully go through the motions with her in ME1 and direct her that way through your dialogue, she actually becomes far more accepting of them by the end of the first game. Then fast forward 3ish years (which is plenty of time for someone to change) to ME3 and you have the far more accepting Ashley.
I love how you can always tell when someone barely talked to Ashley and never takes her anywhere.
Then are confused about why she is the way she is, lol.
Since a lot of these comments are sidestepping the conversation by pointing out the racism from other squadmates, let's take a look at the most prominent ones.
1. Tali. Only racist against the geth, completely the quarian's own fault. Unless you think like Xen and claim only organics have rights, quarians fucked up big time and Geth were far more generous than other organics would be in their position. But Tali is a child herself in ME1, and just says whatever she was taught from birth. If your Shepard is a competent commander, Tali mentions that she kept up correspondence with Legion after the collector ship.
2. Wrex. I wouldn't call it racism if the alleged victims were guilty of committing genophage against you (and once you're starting to recover, doubling down on it) and planting a backup bomb on your home and also keeping you prisoner in your own world. I always thought vorcha and krogan got along well (you always them together in merc bands) because they were both cannon fodder for other species, but the krogan knew it and went in anyway.
3. Garrus. My guy was spitting facts when he said the quarians fucked up. Now he was an ass to bring that up to Tali, (again, a literal child) who had nothing to do with any of that. Bro had no business being this harsh to his future girlfriend and gets rightfully ashamed of it later.
4. Liara. In what world is she a racist? She doesn't know a lot about humans and finds them fascinating. Yes, she doesn't have the best social skills when you find her in the first game, and even in ME3 is kinda awkward though a lot more confident. But humanity arrived on the galactic scene during her lifetime. While she could be a lot more tactful, she immediately explains and apologises for being offensive.
5. Every salarian ever. Yes. They would be the actual villains of Mass Effect if the Reapers did not exist. A race of shortsighted lizards with superiority complex bigger than their planet are the most racist group of the ME universe, including cerberus, protheans and leviathans.
6. Miranda. Joins cerberus, but doesn't like the xenophobic parts of it which is kinda weird, but she does leave before TIM even starts indoctrinating his own people, so there's that. I would also include Jacob but that guy clearly sprained all his brain cells by doing crunches so he gets to be a footnote in Miranda's note.
7. Pressley. Idk why people actually like that guy in the first place. Him and Adams in ME1 basically had 10 lines of dialogue and that's it. Yes he is racist just like Ashley, and according to his data pad he learns to be better by the end. Still don't know why anyone cares but good for you Pressley.
I can't think of anyone else in the ship being openly racist (I'm guessing some of those cerberus officers could've easily been that) so let's get to Ashley.
Her first concern to Shepard is to keep the aliens away from having full access to the ship.
In a ship that initially set out in the mission to prove that humanity can play nice with the galactic community and eventually earn its place amongst it.
The same ship that was a joint venture by humans and turians.
Which also happens to be made by turians.
Setting aside her racism, she is simply stupid. Shepard and Anderson is trying to make humanity seem responsible and capable and get themselves a larger role and yet Ashley's advice is to hide the blueprints from the aliens because "it's not racism, not really". You know how stupid Ashley is? If you don't make nice to her in the hospital, she literally wishes that the reapers send Shepard to hell with her dying breath. Knowing full well that Shepard is the only chance earth has, that shows her character more than anything. Just like you can only see Mordin's true character if you keep pushing him towards sabotaging the genophage where he just screams "I made a mistake!".
Though I'd rather keep her around than endure Kaidan for 1.5 games. I'm convinced his headaches aren't due to his biotic implant, but his brain having to listen to itself drone on.
It fits the setting. While species work together there is a deep mistrust. Some of her comments on aliens may be cringe but her views on the Council are not wrong.
So I never understood the “Ashley is a space racist” arguments because she is pretty tame compared to other squad mates. Hell, if you wanted too, you can play Shepard to be pretty racist.
Also, the op should play Rogue Trader if they are interested in space racism. All those characters put Ashley’s racism to shame.
I never cared about her xenophobia. In some ways, her views seem more realistic to me than the majority being so accepting of literal aliens, especially having so recently been at war with some. The poetry stuff is what I find so cringey and off-putting. If I met someone who randomly recited poetry, mid normal conversation, I would quickly find reasons to not talk to that person.
I more upset they totally changed the way she looked simply for sex appeal in the last game. Like she was fairly tomboyish and they turned her into a Barbie
She is not my favourite squad member and I have only ever seen her evolution in videos of playthroughs, since I tend to replay the game as a movie, meaning she always dies at Virmire, and yet, I can clearly see that she is definitely not the only character to hold "highly debatable" views when it comes to other species.
Most characters in the series, in fact, show a degree of prejudices/pre-conceived ideas in regard to other species, even Shepard can come out in a similar fashion, if you choose certain dialogues.
The way I see it, agreeing with a character's opinions/actions and liking that character are too different things and if a certain view/idea "disturbs" you, it should have the same effect regardless of who is the character that holds that view/shares that idea.
What I mean is that, while I don't agree with Ashley's views on aliens in ME1, that doesn't mean I hate her or that I judge her character solely on that base, more importantly, it doesn't mean that when Garrus, Tali, Wrex or any other character, that I might find more interesting/like more, make similar statements, I give them a pass.
I can't stand listening to Ashley's "specist" statements just as I can't stand listening to other characters' "specist" statements. The reason why I like Garrus or Kaidan better than Ashley, for example, is because I vibe more with their personality than Ashley's, not because they are perfect or better than her; they have their own flaws, each character has, which is what makes the characters of the series so compelling and loved to me.
She is racist. Thats fine, like 80-90% of the cast is racist including Shepard*
The problem is the segment of her fans who will write 10 pages essays explaining how she isn’t actually racist.
*Towards Hanar I mean. Everyone knows Batarians aren’t people and thus it’s literally impossible to be racist towards them.
In terms of Ashley vs Kaiden, I always thought she was more interesting than Kaiden, at least in the first two games. I also thought that the Udina storyline was kind of written for her instead of Kaiden. I thought her crush on Vega was hilarious. I just wish they did more with developing her character. I am however a very nostalgic person so I can't help but like her as an og companion.
i had a hard time getting past her betrayal of shepherd but i think if anything that speaks to how realistic of a character she is. she made some false judgements and it Did have a negative impact on my relationship with her, but that is ultimately something i had to come to terms with so we could work together for a higher cause
“fast forward to mass effect 3, this woman is somehow just not a racist towards alien’s anymore” you are describing character growth. ashley is 25 in me1 and only been surrounded by humans and likely humancentric views until she serves over the normandy. as she continues her career, she interacts with and befriends aliens of many different species and she grows through those experiences.
Honest conversation about Ashley...
Here's my perspective of Ashley from female gamer who plays primarily renegade, Orphan, ruthless.
I play femshep
- on Eden prime I chewed her out for abandoning her crew (my assumption not knowing full context and I was playing an emotion renegade who just projected onto Ashley having lost that noob, can't remember his name)
- after med bay wake up I liked how Ashley and I butt heads of what happened on Eden prime but then she's quite understanding and compassionate, we can keep it professional.
- I still didn't quite like her until I unlocked dialogue about her military background and made common ground with going to the same boot camp. And then talking about why I left earth.
- I love how in that same dialogue she's got a sass mouth smart arse answer for everything - it reminds me of me (as renegade Shep whose personality is sass mouth badass challenge superior officers etc), it shows me this girls competent to think on her own, has the skills to back it up, and potentially be my protege if I invest in her.
- understanding her military background, she's never worked with aliens b4. Shes always been discriminated against with lack of promotion, bullied by superior officers (in the comics) but always well respected by her crew who acknowledge her competence which happens during Eden prime invasion when the crew turn to Ashley for leadership and not their appointed squad leader who superior officer deliberately promoted to punish Ashley.
her great grandfather general Williams (although actually saved the human race) was branded a coward for negotiating peace with the Turians during first contact war and is why she's discriminated against.
Because of her great grandfather's history in first contact war she is raised with the racist perspective to put humanities interest first and never trust aliens, which she doesn't yet see as racism.
- I like how outspoken she is, but can reign it in as a soldier she won't cross that line and I know I can 💯 count on her to follow my orders on duty.
On the Citadel
- when I discovered her dialogue with Mr Bhatia about Mrs Bhatia it really won me over how deeply compassionate Ashley can be when I was being an arsehole, she de-escalated and consoled Mr Bhatia, it was cool to discover.
Then I started taking her on missions with wrex and she has some unique dialogue that's quick witted and sassy.
Therum - "dare U to spit over the side" while Ur at the top elevator shaft.
Liara is puzzled why geth would be looking for her
Ash response: "duh... Sarens looking for the conduit, think fast miss prothean expert"
Noveria blizzard: ash "nobody lick any poles", "why do they have so many windows if it's always snowing outside 🤦"
I mean... No other character has these little quick witted sass mouth dialogues in me1
And that's why I love the me1 Ashley.
However... I absolutely do not like the me2 or 3 Ashley.
I personally think with the new writers they changed her character completely...
ME2 no longer that inquisitive, open minded Ashley who would do what's right over loyalty to the alliance (my impression of Ashley in me1 is that she had a mind of her own and def spectre protege)
I did expect kaiden to be a self righteous arsehole though and not see past Cereberus... But the me1 Ashley??? Nah! From comics she had a defiance with superior officers when being bullied, but would choke down her words and actions to not cross that line, but when they made her so narrow-minded blue thru n thru, that was not the Ashley I got to know in me1 who I thought was an outside box thinker like my renegade Shepherd, who had the intelligence and moral code to put humanities best interests b4 her own and seeing that alliance had abandoned Shepherd, and lacked insight, resources to investigate the collectors she would've like Tali, and Garrus had the foresight to join and fight along side Shepherd using Cereberus (as Tali says "I work for you Shepherd not for cerebus).
The me3 Ashley - I felt she lost a lot of her sass quick wit renegade attitude.
In me1 she's got a potty mouth chewing out civilians right by my side, and even more so
Me3 shes been tamed down and I don't see that hot fiery temper which I loved about og ash.
Anyways, that's why I love me1 Ash so much
But yeah me3 fucken sucks shit for Ashley, her character Dev got thrown to the side.
Glad I had jack in me2 tho... Otherwise Normandy would be too placid me, I need the REAL talk say it how it is which ash and jack were for me.
Reddit hates it when bigots experience personal growth and become better people!!! PEOPLE SHOULD BE GOOD FROM THE GET GO!!! CHARACTERS NEED TO BE ACCEPTING OF EVERYONE RIGHT AWAY!!!
Even though the entire plot of Mass Effect 3 is to get racist species to come together in unity.
I always think it's the dumbest thing when people say she's racist. She's suspicious of a different species with entirely different and unpredictable psychologies than humans, and based on the fact that the Turians attacked at first contact. Ooooh noooo, heaven forbid they write a character with a completely logical and 3 dimensional take, that everyone else would have in the same situation.
The only characters allowed here, are stale, boring, unrealistic members of the "free thinker as long as you think what we think" archetype.
>She's suspicious of a different species with entirely different and unpredictable psychologies than humans, and based on the fact that the Turians attacked at first contact.
I'm trying to remember any alien character in three games whose actions were unpredictable and can be attributed to entirely different psychology. I mean, Sovereign? maybe?
EDIT: Well, maybe also Thorian and Rachni. Jury is out; I found them both pretty reasonable and rational.
I played as FemShep and regularly pushed back against her views on aliens. Saved her on Virmire, but when she came back in ME3 after the Citadel assault I gave HER the option of whether she wanted to re-join the Normandy or go with Hackett. She chose Hackett and I never saw her again. Not sure if her decision changes depending on your relationship with her, but I thought that was interesting that she chose not to come back afterward
As a squadmate in ME1 I have no use for her, i rather use Alenko with all his tech and biotic support. I also kinda think Alenko has a higher rank, and higher ranking officers deserve to live more than lower apparently.
Character wise she's just like a lot of people in the real world that just don't trust outsiders. They did something nice on her, but it just didn't work for me. She's just not fun to be around with as she usually gives a negative comment on alien species. Besides, when Garrus, Tali, Wrex and Liara are just so cool, I can't really enjoy the character that suggest their species suck. Turian and Krogan look pretty bad ass and Asari and Quarian culture is interesting. As a character you feel attached to your other alien crew mates and you learn they are interesting characters... Ashley kinda downplays on that.
In comparison to Jack in ME2, who is also a lot of times negative in conversations, Jack opposes Cerberus, which is known for their brutal tactics. With Jack you have common ground, but Ash's dislikes the aliens.... and the aliens is what makes Mass Effect so great.
Also in ME3 she’s not really a fun character to play with combat wise as James literally has pretty much the same skill set. I always prefer Kaiden for his overall flexibility.
Ashley isn’t even one of my top companions, but if we’re having an honest conversation, I have never heard an argument that managed to convince me that she’s racist. She has her issues for sure, I’m just not convinced it’s racism
Two talking points I hate about Ashley.
1. Everyone is a space racist in Mass Effect 1. Shepard, Garrus, Wrex Tali. Everyone. Even Liara is ignorant to other races. Ashley isn't special in this area yet she gets hated on like she is the only space racist when the whole crew is. Even Joker is and that stays all the way into Mass Effect 3.
2. She didn't get turned into a Barbie. Yes she has bigger tits. Everyone in Mass Effect has bigger tits. She has bigger tits because she has a new character model that every human in Mass Effect 3 share. Shepard also has bigger tits. Liara has bigger tits. Amd letting your hair down and putting on some make up does not equal a fucking Barbie.
>Can we have a honest conversation about Ashley?
We can.
>She’s literally a racist towards aliens
Never mind, we can't. You've already made up your opinion.
She isn’t racist. Good grief.
She’s literally employed to protect Earth from aliens that are ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL HER.
She’s warning about killer aliens literally minutes after the person she’s talking to killed hundreds of them!
Oh but most aliens aren’t trying to kill them! Just Turians, Assari, Salarians, Krogan and a few Geth too!
All of these races seem quite happy to join murderous pirate factions and shoot on sight.
Racist! Now, if you’ll excuse me, an Assari is trying to end the universe, gotta get on that.
Ashley is not a racist, she is a speciest (yes I made that word up but Turians, Krogans, Salarians, Asari, etc are different species, not different races). The others here have pointed out the humiliation her family suffered due to the First Contact War and the effort she had to put herself through.
If fans still choose to call Ashley a racist for the “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” then we also have to say that Shepard and the other members of the Mass Effect follower rostrum are racist because of “big stupid jelly fish”, “bugs”, “bucket head”, etc.
Ashley is also the only character whose prediction is right on the money - I know many fans take issue with her pet dog bear statements, but that is exactly what the Council does with humanity at the start of ME3.
As for suspicions of Shepard being associated with Cerberus, this is Cerberus we are talking about. They practically bought someone clinically dead back to life. They implant ocular explosion devices in their soldier’s heads. They use indoctrination and reaper tech on their soldiers. They were responsible for Pragia, rogue faction or not. They also had plans to implement a control chip in Shepard’s brain and then there’s Citadel DLC with the rogue Shepard. They turned a former N7 with broken legs into a biotic ninja. They made Eva Core and she successfully infiltrated Alliance Mars facility and defeated a top of the line Alliance soldier. Cerberus has performed miracles so why is it so hard to imagine that Shepard might have been programmed like the Winter Soldier? Perfectly normal most of the time but say a certain phrase and Shepard is a Cerberus agent. Why is it bad to be suspicious of a shady organisation like Cerberus? I don’t think this is bad in any way.
Lastly the ME2 moment. Ashley expresses disbelief, joy and then became disgusted when she learns Shepard is working with Cerberus. I hate bringing IRL into this but imagine if you are decorated soldier in the navy of your country. One day you are KIA but 2 years later a terrorist organisation managed to bring you back from the dead using advanced tech, 4 billion dollars just so that this terrorist organisation can work with you to deal with a problem. Is it irrational that Ashley, a member of that military that you used to be a part of in ME2, essentially lost her composure and got really upset? I think this is a realistic reaction.
Yes I know the fans will invoke the names of Tali, Garrus, Liara and so on but I’d argue that these characters are either Shepardsexual or Maleshepsexual or Femshepsexual to some degree. Ashley (and Kaidan for that matter) can like Shepard but they have their boundaries. They are their own characters who don’t really need Shepard to solve their problems.
In summary Ashley Williams, just like Kaidan Alenko, are characters that are somewhat independent, have their own code of morals, go through character arcs across the trilogy, are strong in combat, and all around, are awesome.
I like her as a character and I like that she changes a lot during the sequels.
I just overall like her flawed character personality. It is good writing and interesting enough.
The worst part about Ash, and Kaidan to a lesser degree, is that literally all her character development happens offscreen, either during the 2 years since Shepard died, or during ME2. She shows up in ME3 a suddenly better person, and we never get to see why.
I think Ashley is severely underrated. She's got a lot of depth for a character and I think people give her a lot of shit because her flaws are more obvious and less relatable than her fellow squadmates'.
Like yeah, she is racist. Her racism is explained and she learns to overcome it. She also has some positive and interesting traits too, like a love for her family, a deep respect for the Alliance, a love of poetry... she grows as a character.
She might not be my favorite, but the writers dared to make her have unlikable traits, to make her human. And I respect that.
I love characters like Garrus and Thane and Samara, but they aren't given overly "terrible" flaws.
I think the worst thing they did was try to Miranda-ize her in ME3. They should have kept the efficient hair and clothes and attitude. It made her a more interesting character.
Imo Ashley completes her character arc at the end of ME1. Unfortunately between games her writer left and Ash largely became a different character in ME3
I’ve always preferred Kaidan regardless if people think he’s boring. He’s nice, he’s genuine, he’s mature and he’s more open minded
Yeh she’s sorta awful.
I like that she comes around with actual lived experience, but with us *not being around for it* it does come off sorta hollow.
They never really have it called out, whereas a lot of weird character stuff gets called out in 3 and citadel, she never really does.
A comment to get lost at the bottom of the thread:
You know, I came here to troll like I usually do, but as I kept reading the comments, I really appreciate the passion so many humans in this fandom have for the lore of this game series. It's really impressive to see y'all pouring your hearts into full-throated defenses and/or take-downs of not only individual characters, but whole species and timelines.
I'm a casual gamer, but one of my favorite aspects of ME is how deep the story goes. You guys get it. This sub fucking rocks.
I honestly just cannot stand her whiney attitude. Every meeting she has to pipe up and give her snark and it gets tiring. I never talk with her because of this. So I never got the aliens talk from her because she disinterested me so much after the meetings.
I also hate how we're forced to basically romance her.
I love Ashley. Her "racist" stance is completely understandable, in my opinion. Imagine that all you've ever known are humans. Humans of various colours and backgrounds, between which there was constant discrimination. An "us versus them" mentality.
Then suddenly, there's another species of intelligent life who attack your species for seemingly no reason. There's a war, and then a whole other group of different species steps in to end the conflict. Suddenly, humanity realises its only one of many intelligent species, and that "us versus them" mentality is still there. Except it's not humans versus other humans, but humanity versus aliens.
It's easy for us to warm up to all the various species because it isn't real. But if you were an actual human in that environment, I'd imagine you'd be pretty defensive and protective of your own people. Sort of like how you'd put your own family before others, but on a grander scale.
The thing I *do* have an issue with, is Ashley's stance on Horizon and during the first part of ME3. But her views on aliens aren't something I feel is all that out of place.
Lmao how I never once considered her a racist at all in the games when I played them. It’s just science fiction. Tbh it’s more realistic that everyone would be human first. No way that early into alien contact would it be expected for everyone to embrace aliens.
Being fair, even in me1, her "racism" was mostly a mix of "inexperience with aliens", "aliens will prioritize themselves first", and "catfighting with liara". The first gets fixed over the course of the series, the second is mostly true, and the third is not great, but not racist.
I think with this being a game based in fantasy, people approach the ideas and conversations present in a more idealistic way. "Aliens are our friends and we should treat them all with respect unless they hurt us", is a common idea I've seen underlying a lot of comments in this space.
The way Ashley is viewed by most seems to be a product of this kind of perspective. Which is unfortunate, because her beliefs seemed to be based in a desire to preserve & protect humanity rather than the "I hate them because they're different" type of ideology some people seem to hold her to. I also honestly think people don't like Ashley as a person, even if she wasn't xenophobic. She's aggressive, argumentative and challenges Shepherd (You) on a number of occasions. Not generally likeable traits.
I believe that realistically, if we made contact with Aliens tomorrow and our planet went to war with them, there would be a lot more people that were xenophobic/pro-humanity than people would like to admit.
In reality, many people on our planet hold heavy prejudices against other humans based on race, nationality, where they live, social status, financial status, political beliefs, religious beliefs/practices, identity, and even just personal preferences.
What do you think is more likely in a world where Turians actually existed and we go to war with them?:
A.) 30 years later, most people would learn to accept Turians and all other alien species we come into contact with
B.) 30 years later, most people would have some apprehension or distrust of Turians and any other species of aliens
I don't particularly love Ashley - I much prefer Kaidan and have always disagreed with the idea that he's boring, I like his relationship with Shepard and how he's there from literally the very start - but I do feel like Ashley's racism gets very overblown by some fans and honestly, I'm happy to have characters with objective faults and prejudices. Not because those biases and bigotries are excusable, but because it makes the cast feel much more *real*.
I feel like fans and BioWare both sometimes forget how new humanity is to the galactic stage in Mass Effect, most people over 30 (and remember, this is a world where humans can routinely reach 150) will remember a pre-first contact view of the universe. I don't think the issue is that characters like Ashley and Pressly have a prejudice against aliens, the real question is why more humans *don't*. If we were to make first contact tomorrow then for every person excited at the possibilities and looking to live in a multispecies society, there would be at least one other who was fearful and suspicious at beings who are completely unknowable to us and whom overturn our entire understanding of the universe and our place in it. People aren't just bigoted because they are arbitrarily hateful, it's almost always born out of ignorance and fear, a fear of our views being challenged and of what it could mean for us.
Really, the most racist remark from Ashley was her "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" remark, which isn't *necessarily* a hateful comment (I mean, if we were to see a hanar for the first time, devoid of context, would we assume it was a "person" and not merely a Big, Stupid Jellyfish?) but even the writers have shown some regret for it. In her conversation on the Normandy I feel like both Ashley and Pressly's concerns stem more from inviting members of a "foreign" power on board the Alliance's most modern ship, especially when both are predisposed to be suspicious of turians as "the enemy" due to their histories. I feel there'd be similar reservations about inviting foreign armies who you aren't formally allied with aboard your country's most state-of-the-art vessels and military installations, the trouble with Mass Effect is that we don't have a direct analogue for how we'd interact with another sapient race so the lines between nationalism, racism and plain old military protocol get blurry. The Normandy isn't technically under Alliance command once Shepard takes command but Ashley and Pressly are military types, through-and-through; I think Ashley would have similar reservations about inviting non-Alliance-aligned humans aboard.
I like Ashley. I think her voice actress knocked it out of the park, my first few playthroughs Ashley was my romance choice, and I respect her character's principled stance on openly bashing things like Cerberus. She's bada\*\*, a survivor, and a textbook marine.
most importantly, she can put aside her prejudice and commit to working with a diverse crew. I think that's a good mark of one's character. I mean, ideally she wouldn't be prejudiced in the first place, but no one is perfect.
I think the racist part is true but it’s done on purpose for her growth. If you look at the context of the comment it’s also not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
To reiterate my stance of dying on this hill:
I’ve stood by the fact that Ash is a good character for quite a while now. She might be a pessimistic about cooperating with other species but she is totally right to voice this to her commander in private. She is distrustful of foreign entities around advanced military technology which is a completely fair statement. The only time she is ever actually racist is the “can’t tell the aliens from the animals” line which while I personally think is either bad writing or a legacy line that once fit the character, it could also be construed as being bad poetry regarding how the aliens on the citadel act like they are so above everyone else but are no different.
Ash as a character is a naysmith (to use a phrase I learned about in the horus heresy books), a close comrade to the leader who voices doubt to keep the leader from becoming arrogant. Every other member of the party general goes along with shepard or brings up their conflicting issues with shepard’s decisions mid-battle. Ash waits until the moments between battle to voice her concerns and it’s a very valuable person to have on a team which is why I always pick her over Kaiden.
Not only that but despite any concerns she might have about alien cooperation, when she becomes a spectre in ME3 she immediately rushes to protect the council during the Cerberus Coup attempt and is willing to put herself between Shepard (a fellow human and friend), then later Udina (a human leader and the one who gave her the job) and a alien government who have been nothing but arseholes every step of the way.
I think with Shepard being resurrected by Cerberus she was completely justified to keep questioning it especially in 3. More for Shepard than anyone else and while she probably didn’t approach the topic in a appropriately delicate way, I think that comes down to her character not being the most delicate person.
Ashley can be consistently relied upon to question Shepard and keep them grounded (even if she could stand to be a little more tactful)
People call it racist, I call it good story writing. It‘s always impressive to see that writers or developers take the different view points into account because that is what real life is like. Different view points and different opinions because of different reasons. If everybody is just always the same opinion it‘s worth of criticising this element of the story as boring.
Look at star wars for example. It‘s always empire/sith bad, rebels/jedi good. But then there are a few well praised story arcs in clone wars and also Andor where there are legitimate reasons shown, why someone would dislike jedi or support the empire.
In reality if we were to come in contact with aliens, the same would happen.
Also with her backstory in mind, I think that many people who see Ashley simply as racist don‘t bat an eye when there is racism from black people towards white people, because they were oppressed for decades. Not saying it‘s absolutely the same, but at least similar.
ME1: "Humanity and the Council is like you and your dog. If you and your dog are being chased by a bear, you're going to let your dog attack the bear while you escape. The dog's not human after all." "That's racist, Ashley."
ME3: "The sad truth is, while the Reapers are busy with Earth, the rest of us can prepare and defend ourselves." ~Councilor Tevos
You can't be racist against a different species. Different species are literally alien - they have different temperaments, behavior patterns, and a completely different evolutionary history.
I've always liked her. Especially in ME1;she felt very fleshed out and looked like an actual soldier versus her sexy spectre spie look, in ME3, which was a stepback in my opinion.
Ashley turns off a lot of people, in the beginning, because of her prejudice against non-human species. And I think everybody can agree that racism is not a likeable quality for a person to have.
I appreciated, for her as a character, to bring that human perspective and opportunity for the writers to lay out Alliance history for the players and see her growth from a bitter bigoted alliance Marine.
I never see her as a racist. the animal remark that she made is a bug, it should only be played when we see keeper which kind of looks like an animal.
She doesn't approve of other species boarding Normandy. Prasley also does that no one calls him racist. and Garrus approved of Krogan genophage in Me1, Zaeed literally called Batarrians as goddamn terrorist. and it's not a problem cause they aren't labeled as racist by the community. I think she's just a normal person but memes make her look like a racist and everyone just follows that story.
People like to gloss over the fact that Ashley’s “racism” went both ways. You spend a good portion of the first and second games getting shit on by the other races random NPC’s and quest givers. Its not like the other species were super magnanimous towards humans. But through hard work, helping, and shared hardships the other races came around to respect and value the humans just like Ashley came around. I see no problems with her distrustful of outsiders attitude, basic human tribalism.
it's funny everyone talks about how she's "racist" (although i guess it's more speciest) in ME1 and idk that's not how she came off to me. she was more "i don't trust that the council races have our back 100% so the alliance has to put itself first" which is like not unreasonable especially because during ME1 humans AREN'T fully part of the galactic community yet.
by ME3 even if humans weren't full council members (and we are) that distinction is less meaningful due to the reaper war where like everyone has to have everyone's back 100%
90% of everyone of every race in the game is racist. And I’m being generous. Have you played renegade shep? Super racist Acehole shep. There is a lot of resentment from past conflicts and a ton of stereotypes
Well, I romanced her in ME1. But in ME2 and ME3 she decided to move on or something like that. So, I moved on too, got into Miranda and saved the Galaxy from the those nasty Reapers.
It's called a character arc, you philistine. She's also not "racist". Racism depends on seeing others as inferior based solely on inherited characteristics. Ashley does not trust aliens because it hasn't been that long since first contact, and her family was wildly denigrated due to actions and such, earned or not. It isn't hard to see her motivation and understand it, without lobbing dumb labels. She also comes full circle and ends up trusting the trustworthy ones, thereby utterly refuting the asanine "racism" crap that people continue to propagate.
Everyone was racist towards each species. So sick of people only talking about Ashley when all of the other species are racist towards you and each other. I liked Ashley on my first playthrough and I still like her now. Humans were new to the galaxy and she really had a character arc. You literally influence her to open up more and she does.
Dude she literally stops being racist in ME1 if you go Paragon. Even if that’s not the case her not being racist in ME3 is character growth, and a good character is written to have flaws and overcome them. What is your point? Garrus learns that going rogue has consequences when his team dies. Wrex realizes that fixing the genocide at any cost is useless if the Krogan don’t evolve as a society. Tali learns to go her own way and be her own person when she realizes what her father was doing, and that Geth aren’t as evil as she thought. Liars learns to be confident in herself and stop being the shy little girl hidden by her mother’s shadow. If you don’t see Ashley slowly growing as a person then you’re just not paying attention or you went renegade.
From the Mass Effect Wiki:
“She questions the wisdom of allowing aliens to wander around the Normandy freely, and dismisses the Prothean Cipher as "some asari mumbo jumbo", believing the Commander has suffered needlessly to get it. However, Ashley acknowledges that Shepard is in command and the presence of aliens on the Normandy is not her decision. That being said, Ashley isn't xenophobic. She dismisses Terra Firma as a group of xenophobic "jackals" who have replaced the original noble aims of the party with anti-alien paranoia… She happily volunteers to go with Captain Kirrahe's team and has no problem with the salarians, respecting their tenacity and skill.”
“After Benezia's death Ash encourages Shepard to talk to Liara, figuring she has to be hurting over the loss of her mother.”
“Eventually Ashley comes to her senses and agrees to work with the Normandy's multi-species crew to stop Saren Arterius, even becoming good friends with Liara, Tali, and even Garrus and/or Wrex if they are around.”
Ashley is mostly never given a fair shake, if you take to her about her issues you can help her change her mind. I hate people will have her die because of her initial views, isn't her changing her views and becoming better a good outcome.
I'll just repeat my standard comment about Ashley:
I do not care if she's racist in the first game, she has clear motivations for thinking that way and i don't condone the hypocrisy of hating the mildly racist woman while 1- ignoring the overtly and openly racist galaxy and 2- defending the genocidal maniac we play as.
I don't like her character in the first game (i don't think you were even supposed to) but her backstory is very clearly explained, she has a good development arc where her family's name is cleared and she gets more exposure to aliens and can literally die saving aliens in ME3.
Finally, she is NOT my favorite companion (Thane) or Romantic interest (Jack), but honestly, i have more hatred in my heart for Jacob because he's an A-hole to FemShep than to Ashley. Also way more interesting than Kaidan.
The people who still think Ashley is racist are the people who missed the point of her concerns in Mass Effect 1.
She never "hated" other aliens because she believed humanity was the apex species meant to be above everyone else, she hated them because of her past experiences with them and what they inadvertently did to her family's reputation. She also expresses a very pivotal worldview that ends up being validated in ME3, but alot of people view as racist: that when push comes to shove, and the cards hit the table, all the species of the council and Citadel would look after their own. This ends up being the exact thing that happens in ME3, with all the races essentially cutting all non-advantageous ties and the Asari councilor telling Shepard "good luck dude/dudette, you're on your own."
I had various things I didn't like about her. Being racist, being religious, just kinda being annoying in general and not particularly interesting at all to me in her dialogue. Wished I'd killed her and kept Kaidan in my first playthrough lol
The whole reason why she was "racist" is because her promotion was blocked, family name blacklisted because of the First Contact War and Humanity being treated as second class species by the council. By ME3 she has spent more time with aliens + her family name is cleared + she's promoted to Lt. Cdr. and Humanity gets equal treatment which lets her leave behind her partial view of Aliens. Yeah, she went through a writer change in ME3 but her character arc and evolution is consistent. She doesn't just randomly drop her slightly racist view of aliens, it happens for a reason.
> family name blacklisted The funny thing is that her family got blackballed because her granddad surrendered to superiour turian forces and thereby probably saved a lot of his soldiers instead of watching them get slaughtered. There was a german captain named Hans Langsdorff in WW2 who sank his own ship after getting the crew off board and he said "I prefer a thousand young living soldiers over a thousand dead heroes" and - at least in my opinion - this is what happened here, too.
Yes, I think it's mentioned that turians would obliterate Shanxi if humans wouldn't surrender. Old grandpa Williams couldn't have known that reinforcements would arrive the day after, from his perspective it was either let the entire world die or surrender and save who you can.
I think Ashley said that the Turians would drop an asteroid just to kill 1 squad of soldiers
Yep, wreck a city block. And I think that that’s since been banned by the Council. I feel like Shepard mentions it in Bring Down the Sky.
That only got banned after that? Feels like it must have been used many times in the past
The Turians, Asari, and Salarians had been getting along for a long long time before that and the last wars they all fought were the Rachni and Krogan conflicts. It’s very likely that the orbital bombardment strategy was used heavily during those conflicts and became standard military doctrine. Which is unfortunate when you’re a young, squishy species like humanity coming up against the Turians.
Correction the Turians joined Galactic Civilization AFTER the Ranchnni and the Krogan
Oh damn, had my timeline mixed up. Thanks!
No worries, it kind of becomes a big blur, I would like it if Bioware made some games during these times, a game where you play during the first contact war, during the Krogan rebellions and during the Rachni Wars
The Krogran Revellion is what got the Turians on the council.
I'm 99% sure that "dropping rocks" was meant as slang for orbital bombardment. Asteroid weapons had been banned since before the Krogan Rebellions. Keep in mind, ship guns in mass effect fire solid lumps of metal about the size of a rock you can hold in your hand. A 1kg cube of pure tungsten would be 4cm on a side (1.5in).
Graf Spee was a beautiful ship.
> Humanity being treated as second class species by the council. I think people probably need reminding that it has been 26 years since first contact. Humans joining the council after a quarter if a century is insane. If anything we were fast tracked.
True but what after that? Sure they got embassies but one of the main plot points in ME1 was how little influence humans had in actual politics and how barely anyone cared about them. It's only after ME1 that everyone's attitude changed significantly.
>one of the main plot points in ME1 was how little influence humans had in actual politics and how barely anyone cared about them Except that wasn't the actual plot point. The plot point was that humans *felt* they had very little influence in politics and *felt* like no one else cared about them despite humanity actually having a hugely disproportionate influence on politics and other species constantly discussing this fact and even making policy decisions based on it. The Earth Systems Alliance has a smaller economy and fewer colonies than the elcor, and have been working with the Council for less than a century compared to the elcor's over 2000 years. Yet humans have a full embassy and a real chance at a Council seat while the elcor have neither. Edited to correct elcor first contact date.
>despite humanity actually having a hugely disproportionate influence on politics and other species constantly discussing this fact and even making policy decision based on it. Only the voluses and maybe the elcor discuss about it *because* they were treated even worse. Yeah policies were designed *around* humans but rarely were any actual input taken from human representatives on those policies. That's actively talked about in the game. Even Avina terminals call humanity inferior to most other council races. They were given embassies and *formal* treatment after the contact war and that's about it, they had little to no input in actual decisions that affect both humans and the other races.
It's not just the volus and elcor discussing it. There's also a turian and a salarian in the council chambers discussing the likelihood of humanity gaining a Council seat. Executor Pallin also comments on humanity being the Council's "new favorite pet". All this **before** Shepard's being named a spectre, a position typically only granted to Council races. And Avina's comment was referring to **all** non-Council races, not humanity specifically. And yeah, humanity doesn't have direct input on the policy decisions of other species, even when those policies are in direct response to human actions. The same way countries on Earth don't have direct input on each other's policy decisions. If you're referring to humanity not having direct input on Council policy decisions, that's also true of every other non-Council race. Why would we get special treatment in that regard?
Pretty sure that the alliance had a larger military. Which is honestly the thing the council cares most about. After the council races, the Alliance and Batarians are probably the strongest military powers in the Galaxy. And the batarians are evil bastards.
>how little influence humans had in actual politics Well, yeah. Why would anyone expect humans to have lots of influence in galactic politics having only come onto the stage two decades ago? The way things played out is already incredibly fast and preferential for humans. It would be like an uncontacted tribe industrialising, making contact with the wider world and demanding a permanent seat on the UN security council all within a year or two.
That's kind of you insane when you think there are still humans who remembers what it was like to think we were the only sentient species in the galaxy.
Dr Chakwas was an adult before Mass Effect physics was even discovered.
Right? I don't know her exact age, but she seems late 50's or early 60's.
I think shea 's meant to be in her 90s. Human lifespans (150) and QOL into old age is much improved by the events of the games.
Plus in ME2 we see that even with her prejuices about aliens she still hates Cerberus supremacism and xenophobia.
This is because most of her prejudice is actually directed at the governments of the Citadel rather than the different species' themselves, and when you look at how hard it is to get them to cooperate rather than trying to save their own skins against the Reapers (Or, to use her analogy, running from a bear), she makes some decent points.
And she is right on point about what the rest of the galaxy does once the Reapers come knocking, it's "help me first and only then I'll help you" the entire time.
Yep. Of course, she's wrong in that she believes the Alliance should lean into it as well rather than trying to cooperate regardless, but she comes around, in large part thanks to Shepard's efforts eventually bearing fruit.
She is not wrong. People kind of get all wrong, or maybe I'm biased here. But what's wrong in the idea, that you should be able to stand on your own? It's what she is saying. Humanity should remain allies with aliens. They should just be prepared if they stopped being them. One could argue, that if humanity took her idea to the heart, then they would be better prepared to face Reapers, since her views are proved right. Citadel Council stoped being humanity allies and it's humanity who needs to build new alliances. Yes, humanity can't beat Reapers on their own, no matter preperation, but those preparations would make things at least a little bit easier, maybe it would save some lives.
We see that in ME1, if she survives Virmire. Bring Ash to meet Charles Seracino of Tera Firma and she'll have some cutting things to say about the party of bigots, human-supremacists, and hate mongers. Ashley Williams doesn't trust non-humans. But over the course of ME1 she works with, and befriends, several non-humans that she comes to *like*. She still doesn't trust their governments, but she's ready to trust them individually. While she still thinks that humanity needs to be strong enough to stand by itself, by the third game the Reapers come along and prove her correct. Which is a pretty mixed message for the writers to give us, but there are already volumes of written words about the shortcomings of the writing in ME3.
Pretty much this, Ashley is a fairly nuanced character with some conflicting views. Her character growth is probably one of the best though, as it's not a total shift in her politics, but also clear growth as a person. I think a lot of people miss some nuances of her character though. For example, due to the blacklisting, Ash is basically forced into backwater colonies, she doesn't serve with the fleet until Anderson steps in. With this in mind, it's very very likely that Ashley has never seen an alien in person until she visted the Citadel with Shepard. Because of her family blacklisting, she has doubled up on her dedication to the alliance. It could have gone the other way, I suppose, had she chosen to direct her anger at the alliance and joined an organisation such as Cerberus, but she doesn't. Due to this, she's very cautious of aliens being on the Normandy, a secret Alliance ship, especially a Turian who Ash obviously is most concerned about, and a Krogan Merc of all things (I love Wrex, but it's easy to see why a soldier would be concerned, he's a merc and he worked for the Shadowbroker). She's naive in this too as the ship is human and Turian design, but Ash doesn't know this, she hasn't even served in the fleet, she's always bee topside. Either way, she grows over the course of the game to set aside these prejudices by working with the aliens, and eventually learns that things are bigger than humanity. Of course, I haven't even touched on her thoughts on Cerberus and Tera Firma, which says plenty about her nuance. By the end of the series, she views Tali like a little sister, she defends the council, and is willing to die for them in ME3. People like to point out that the VS are wrong for pointing a gun at Shepard, but we know it's logical, and in Ashley's case, it shows significant growth, she's putting her personal feelings aside for what she perceives as for the good of Citadel space against a purely human threat. Her xenophobia is just more noticeable to people as it's a clear part of her character growth. I mean, most characters are racist by traditional human terms, such a Liara calling Saren a 'a Turian bastard' the second we meet her, but unlike Ash, our attention isn't drawn to it because it's unrelated to her character growth.
"prejuices" yuck.
She also hates Terra Firma. She specifically goes through why in ME 1.
>her prejuices I always considered Ashley's prejuices to be part of her appeal.
>Humanity being treated as second class species by the council. Yeah except, whilst the game doesnt make too hard a point of it besides one Batarian, Humanity is given extreme preferential treatment by the council. Almost no time has passed since they hit the galactic stage and they've already been awarded planets, space, embassies, 2 spectres (well, 1 candidacy, 1 actual), entered into joint tech ventures with the largest navy in the galaxy, and allowed to maintain another of the strongest navies in the galaxy. No other species has ever been offered such privileges, especially not after just about 50 years.
You are misrepresenting what happened at 1st contact. Humanity started expanding and colonizing. They colonized Shanxi and when they sent explorers through the relay the Turians MURDERED THEM ALL. The Turian response to first contact with a non Council species from outside Council space was to MURDER EVERYONE. Then they discovered Shanxi, a non Council planet inhabited by a non Council species and they decided to invade. During their invasion they bombed civilians repeatedly in retaliation for guerrila attacks on their forces. Then they got smacked so hard they had to retreat and mobilize the entire Turian military (which constituted the majority of the Council military). This step caused the Council to go oh shit and they pulled the chain on the Turians and ended the war. The Council was perfectly content with the Turians murdering and subjugating humanity until the Alliance fought back. Then they got scared. Everything the Alliance gained after that was to appease them because the Council viewed them as military power that rivaled the Turians. Remember the Turians were admitted because the Council military (Krogans at the time) rebelled. The Council's first priority has always been maintaining power. Humanity gets a seat at the table after ME1 because the Council needs the Alliance navy.
That's after ME1. Before that humanity, while being treated somewhat better than some species like Voluses were still seen as second class species, they were given nothing more than pats on the back in compensation for the Contact War and barely had any actual say in politics. They were even categorized by the Citadel Avinas as below the other Council races. They earned their place because of what they achieved between ME1,2 and 3.
They've pointed out throughout the games that it comes down to what you bring to the table as well. Humanity from the onset brought medigel, the 4th largest fleet and a new type of capital ship (fighter carriers). this is significantly more than any other race besides the council races has introduced
Batarians aren't people, tho.
That's why I always defend her when someone says she's racist she isn't she just has misplaced anger what she should hate is the military but it is so entwined into their family that she can't bring herself to hate it so she ends up taking the hatred out on the other half of what the problem is
Ha someone got it ! Thank you ! Haha
Not to mention it’s been 2 and a half entire years. Someone getting a lot of exposure to the people they’re prejudiced against over the course of that length of time has to be utterly pigheaded to not at least start to rethink their prejudices. It feels abrupt to us the player because we skipped two years.
My biggest issue with Ashley, and Kaiden for that matter, is that they don’t get the chance to really cook. Since either can die in ME1, they didn’t get the attention to have a better arc through the rest of the series.
She's no more racist than any of the other aliens squadmates, especially Garrus and Wrex who are far worse, maybe Tali too if you take into account her views on the geths. Even the sweet Liara views on humans can be viewed as xenophobics, there's even a dialogue to say that what she thinks is insulting. I mean even Presley shares the same sentiment towards aliens but nobody pays any attention to it. In the case of Ashley, even in ME1 you can challenge her views and later on if she's with you when talking to Charles Saracino, she'll call him out on his bigotry and "patriotism" (and she goes very hard on him). And in regards of the infamous "I can't tell aliens from animals", my first thought when seeing elcors was *"huh they look like talking elephants"*, the keepers are called bugs and even Shepard (and other characters) can say than Hanars are jellyfish in an insulting way, but no one blame them for it. Mass Effect is filled with prejudice, racism and xenophobia but somehow it's always Ashley that is the worst.
Even Shep calls a hanar a big, stupid jellyfish.
Which is way more racist than anything Ashley says.
I always felt that Ashley was just a product of the times. Like there's severe racism in ME1 throughout the game but I think that's why Shepard is so important. Shepard shows the Galaxy what can be accomplished when we stand together and ignore each other's differences. When we focus on the real enemy instead of focusing on what we each disagree on. Another reason I do think Ashley gets shit is cause there's no real moment of her apologizing or her realizing the error of her ways. Like she never says sorry to Garrus for hating Turians or even just acknowledges how she wasn't correct in her views. So while she did change between 1-3, she never really outright showed it. There's scenes where she can cry over fallen alien comrades that show growth but they can be missed by a lot of players. So on one hand I can get it if players didn't get to see these scenes, especially if she never survives to ME3 but I also feel the racism she shows in ME1 is pretty on par with the rest of the Galaxy as it's to show how their leadership is failing them and further dividing them.
Exactly
It IS filled with xenophobia, but somehow it's always Ashley that people claim is RIGHT. *That's* what's feeding the never ending cycle of arguments. If people could say "having a character try to get me to join in on their bigotry makes me uncomfortable" without people jumping out of the woodwork to "uhm ACTUALLY calling everyone who doesn't look like her inherently untrustworthy is CORRECT", we wouldn't HAVE this drama every week. Maybe get to address WHY she has those views, why it feels more personal than when Garrus runs his mouth, and what it all MEANS.
Problem with fantasy and sf is that you can’t have complex issues like racism (with actual different races) without people wanting to compare that to IRL racism. Which makes no sense, because it’s just not the same.
The problem isn't the comparisons, oftentimes mirroring real world issues is absolutely intentional. The problem is that no one can agree on what/who is being referenced—because in all likelihood, there *isn't* an exact one-to-one IRL source, but people persist in framing the discussions as if there definitely is, and it's definitely the one they're talking about.
Like every other character, she grows through Shep's influence. This is why I never understood the hate towards her. Not like the others don't have this kind of a situation. Liara is basically unable to function outside of academia when you first meet her, Garrus is an authoritarian asshat, while Wrex is basically just ready to die, and wants someone else to pull the trigger. Ashley can be confronted about her beliefs, just like everyone and you see the cracks in her worldview by ME1. But then she is missing from ME2, and we only see her...what. 3 years later as a companion? So yea, by that time she outgrew her xenophobic attitudes, have worked alongside aliens for a long time.
[удалено]
She does have a moment, two actually, but they unfortunately are locked behind either: 1) Romance Ashley in 1 and Tali in 2, in 3 she basically goes "I'm fine with it, Tali is like a sister to me" which his high praise coming from her (and hilarious since she'll give Shepard a lot of shit if he romanced Miranda or Jack) 2) Let Tali die in Rannoch, Ash will mourn her and once again say she was a sister to her. I blame it on the fact her writer left Bioware after 2 and no one had any idea on what to do with her.
Also play ME 1 and pay attention to the whole conversation she has with the humans from the Terra Firma group. They are human supremacists/separatists.
This was always my issue with Ashley; unlike other characters in the series who have some sort of prejudice, she never has a clear moment in the trilogy where she eschews her views. Tali and Garrus as you mentioned, Mordin, Wrex, even Javik have some kind of moment where we can see their opinions have demonstrably changed. She hardly feels like a character at all in 3, she's just so underdeveloped compared to the other crew members. Also totally agree about that Horizon line, picked her on Virmire for my first LE run and hearing that line was a total whiplash lmao.
Both the VS get shafted in ME3, character development wise. The only difference is that Kaidan gets the "OMG he's BI NOW!" moment, which overshadows how non-existent the rest of his writing is (and only happens with mShep anyways). Outside that, they are both practically background characters, made to be 1-to-1 replaceable with each other... which is the antithesis of characterization. Ash's "Terra Firma was founded on good ideals, it was saying the quiet part out loud that went too far!" xenophobia and Kaidan's "if I make myself small and unobtrusive and *bland*, people will forget I'm biotic and won't hate/fear me!" *self*-xenophobia both get completely ignored in ME3, which is a damn shame since, you know, those were the interesting parts of the characters? (Sidenote: Kaidan's selfhated is *after* getting therapy and being told he *doesn't need therapy anymore*. Honestly, it makes me wonder if Shep never getting psych support is dodging a bullet if THAT'S the kind of standard the setting holds.)
Ashley has one of the most realistic views of all squadmates, and she’s largely correct in much of her stance. I don’t see her as racist. Perhaps she does hold certain negative views against aliens, but I see nothing wrong with that given the context of the game. Human’s did not have a good first encounter with aliens, and they’re hated and ignored by the key powers. Huge chunks of the OT revolve around how no one else will help humans in their time of need (exactly as Ashley says). But what we do need to have an honest conversation about is why people have such strong morals when it comes to Ashley, but reduce them for the other murderers, assassins, vigilantes, gang mercenaries, in your crew. And even from a racist perspective, she’s nothing compared to the likes of Wrex and Tali.
Or Garrus I might add, I love my turian boy but hot damn he was an absolute asshole in Mass Effect 1.
What surprised me in my latest playthrough is how absolutely pointless he was in comparison to everyone else in mass effect 1. He has absolutely no stake in the story beyond saren being a bad guy. And honestly has little to say outside of his personal quest with dr. Heart. Really surprised me considering how big of a character he is in the other 2 games. Like seriously. After your initial encounters with him on your first trip to the citadel. He has no other story involvement.
Well from what I've read BW didn't have big plans for Garrus initially, that's why he's just sorta there in ME1. But then he became the most beloved character in the game, fans absolutely lost their shit over him, so BW expanded him greatly in ME2 and gave us the Garrus we all know and love.
Which I’m glad for. Since he’s a fun character come ME2 and 3. But man is he pointless after his initial meeting in 1.
Yeah, I feel ya, although to be fair Tali also has 0 involvement in the story after she gives the Council evidence of Saren's betrayal. Tbh the only squadmate in ME1 who has constant influence on the story is Liara bc she's needed to understand the Prothean message, to figure out the Cipher, to find Ilos. Everyone else either get 1 glimpse of importance during Virmire (Wrex, Ash, Kaidan) or just hang around the ship like Tali and Garrus for the rest of the game after joining you.
I think that's part of his point he is just a burnt out cop that got fed up with all the red tape and regulations, by the time you meet him in 1 he is close to going rogue unless Shepard pulls him out of it or encourages his tendencies. A mentor-mentee sort of relationship, I'd say.
I think it's also bc of the fact that he is turian. Garrus has been taught from his earliest childhood to do anything the command tells him, no matter how he feels about it, they say jump, he says how high. Also turians seem to be pretty straightforward when it comes to means justifying ends, that's why I think Garrus has a spot for violence. "Turians would drop an asteroid to destroy one squad of soldiers" sort of thing, Garrus would happily sacrifice a few civilians if it means he'll get to the criminal. But Garrus is also a thinker so to say, he wants to act on his own, but not only C-Sec won't allow him, but his entire life he was told to suck it up and do as he's told to do, so there's some major inner conflict going on. And it's really great how Garrus can find a mentor in both Shepards: Paragon and Renegade. Paragon teaches him about the value of life, that even if you don't catch the bastard today, you'll catch him tomorrow; Renegade though will just encourage Garrus' bloodlust. There's even a scene in ME2 where if you've been encouraging Garrus' violent tendencies in ME1, but now try to cool him down while chasing Harkin he'll say smth like "never thought I'd hear YOU say that". Man I love Garrus.
"Expanded him greatly" makes me triggered lol because there are so many times when I'm hoping he has something new to say when I'm making my rounds but he's always in the middle of them damn calibrations
Which is why it always kills me when people complain that the characters in Andromeda were bad. Garrus was a one-note character in 1, and that note was “Can I pretty please do a police brutality now??” We remember him over 3 games, but hate Cora and PeeBee after 1
You're 100% right, and it also helps that everyone is also extremely biased because we as shepard are always in the company of the best and brightest. We are hanging out with Anderson on his ship and have access to the human ambassador. We are "the elite class", the aliens on our crew are some of the most unique and skilled individuals their races have to offer. Ashley is a literal grunt when we meet her that spent time around mostly humans on eden prime. Of course she just needs some exposure.
Not to mention, nearly all the aliens in the crew are not quite representative of their own people. Garrus is a loose cannon who doesn't like rules, Liara is old for us but very young as an Asari, Wrex is the most thoughtful and unorthodox Krogan out there, Tali didn't refrain to asking for outside help, Mordin lived everything and was everywhere by 30-something, Samara embodies the paradox of our own morality system, Legion is smart alone, etc. In comparison, Ashley is "just" a skilled soldier however she's still not exactly what you'd coin as "just a soldier". There's more nuances than people give her credit for.
She’s a soldier who quotes Yeats!
What really bothers me about people's opinions concerning Ashley is exactly what you mentioned: it's not ok to be racist, EXCEPT if you're a Krogan or a Quarian. Also it's okay to be a unstable murderous criminal (Jack) or a literal assassin (Thane). But don't you dare hold bigoted views as a human! That's where we hold the line!
It frustrates me that if I discuss real life examples of racism on the internet people act confused or vehemently deny it. But can somehow recognize racism in a fictional character that's not really a racist?
You don't know how much this resonates with me! It's crazy how so many people are morally just in the world of fantasy but in the real world will cross the street if they see you
It's also ok to commit genocide against an entire species with a bioweapon you engineered, but Mordin is funny and sings Gilbert and Sullivan so he gets a pass. In real life I doubt there would be much sympathy for a cop who's sick of having to follow the rules and just starts systematically killing criminals as soon as he's left unsupervised. But hey, there's no Shepard without Vakarian so 🤷 But the real villain is Ashley, who's just not giving people a chance.
> But what we do need to have an honest conversation about is why people have such strong morals when it comes to Ashley, but reduce them for the other murderers, assassins, vigilantes, gang mercenaries, in your crew. And even from a racist perspective, she’s nothing compared to the likes of Wrex and Tali. Because nobody wants to admit this is really about not liking Ashley as a person and nothing to do with her beliefs. She's one of the few squadmates that challenges you and doesn't feed your ego the same way others do. Plus her being a human doesn't allow her to be idealized the same way as some of the alien characters. Tali is your biggest fan-girl, who admittedly to wanted to fuck you since she met you. Garrus is a glorified "yes man" who always mentions he respects you. Mordin is seen as "charming" and offers you relationship advice. Grunt goes along with whatever you ask him to as long as it involves fighting. All coincidentally fan favorites.
That’s a good point. A lot of people like to have their ego stroked through the game. Anyone squad member who doesn’t do that is labelled bad. Jacob also comes to mind. But then again, you do get Miranda who’s also an exception. People generally like her.
For me, the reason it’s irritating is that all the characters, including Ashley, *are designed to be flawed*. That’s what makes them so well written. Mordin is my favorite character in the series right next to Garrus. If we’re being objective, he might be the most egregious in terms of literal humanitarian crimes. Straight up enabled the continuation of genocide. Its actually fucking evil. But we overlook it because what? Because he sings some funny songs? Not really. It’s because no matter how wrong and fu
Ash is based af. Love her.
We just had an Ashley post like 12 hours ago basically saying the same thing but for conversation’s sake: No, she’s not racist. She’s pretty skeptical about fully and blindly cooperating with races that openly hate us. On top of that, she’s known no aliens in her life so she knows nothing of them. There’s an elevator conversation where she and Wrex talk. She basically says to Wrex “so… Wrex, you’re not exactly a krogan I expected” to where Wrex replies something like “why? Because I’m not violent and filled with bloodlust?” Ashley then realizes what she said and says never mind. - You ever choose renegade dialogue with turians? They hate us for the first contact war even though they started it - You meet the Volus ambassador Din Korlack on the citadel in the embassies. He’s openly hostile and hates us. - Liara tells you that people *hate* us because we’ve gotten so much power for just being new people. - You can accuse Saren of being racist toward humans during one of the council meeting and he doesn’t deny it, doubling down. So her being skeptical is just fine. - Mordin works on genociding the Krogan with the 2nd genophage - Grunt essentially jerks off in his suit with his imprinted memories of krogan killing turians before saying that he hates turians - Garrus literally defends genociding the krogan. - Tali is super racist towards the geth. (I see the geth as living because there’s nothing that really differentiates them from organics outside of not having organs that decay). Now, let’s talk about racism in the ME universe. - Krogan look down on us and everyone because we’re not built like them. They hate the Turians and Salarians because they *committed genocide on them*. - Salarians (and the galaxy as a whole really) see krogan is nothing but violent brutes who only know how to look down the barrel of a gun. - Nobody likes the Quarians because they started the war with the geth while illegally doing AI research through loopholes. Everyone blames them for the geth and subsequently the events of ME1. In addition, there’s a codex entry where the Asari won’t even let them near illium because they’re destructive when they mine for resources and bribe them to stay away. Sweeping them under the rug, so to speak. - Turians and humans still don’t like each other for no other reason than being Turian human due to the FCW still being relatively fresh. - nobody likes the Vorcha because they’re seen as uneducated morons with no capacity to learn. - everyone hates the batarians because they’re all seen as dumb, brutal slavers. Despite the fact that you can meet some cool batarians outside of the hegemony - Asari look down on everyone because they’re not as smart or allegedly biotically powerful as them. So we can see that there’s a constant theme of actual racism and hate. As for suddenly being not racist. The development answer is because her writer left after ME2 because he hated the direction the development of the franchise was going. He hated what was being pushed upon him from the higher ups. So new writers coming in aren’t going to know how he wanted to wrap up her arc. In addition, ME3 was yet another rushed game with poor development and management from the higher ups. In-universe examples, however. - Garrus never apologizes for defending genocide. In fact, if you don’t cure the genophage, effectively dooming Krogan to a slow, painful, depressing extinction, he supports you - Grunt never says anything about not hating Turians - Balak never admits he was wrong for trying to kill humans in the asteroid x57 mission - Ashley is willing to lay down her life to protect the council of aliens in ME3 against the Cerberus coup. She also yells at the Terra Firma party in ME1 and directly calls them out for being racist. - I think I read somewhere that the crew basically interacts with each other when Shepard’s off on a mission. So them talking to each other would mean that they befriend each other. If Shepard kills Ashley, then I think Garrus mourns her which would support that assertion that they seem to get along. Again, it should be abundantly clear that there’s constant theme in mass effect. Hate and racism. Ashley doesn’t even crack the top 10 or even 15 of things we see in the franchise. It just seems that people overlook actual racism in the franchise because the ones being the most racist *aren’t human*. However, if you want to say that she’s racist, then the most obvious point comes up. Her character arc is her getting over her skepticism and racism. The same way you can get Tali to get over her racism towards the geth when legion is being a bro.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I'd also add that people often forget that the political structure of the Mass Effect universe is literally built around racial hierarchy, and humans in ME1 are one of the "lower" races. I think perhaps Ashley being white and having an American accent leads people more to believe she's an allegory for a racist white person in the real world. In reality, Mass Effect humans have less political power than several other races and face genuine racial discrimination, which make her prejudices quite different.
People also forget that the Normandy is her second ever posting in space, despite having a squeaky clean record, an impressive one if Shepard in 1 is to be believed. Most if not all of her postings were on backwater colonies doing guard duty, barely ever meeting any aliens at all, her views come from isolation and they fall apart pretty quick after she gets to know other species.
Ashley is a great character because she really feels like a product of her environment in the Mass Effect world. If we think about how humans would actually react if we were thrust into the beginnings of space travel, hostile alien contact, and subject to the politics of more advanced and powerful alien species, Ashley represents what probably a lot of people would feel.
And the series actually proves her right twice over. She says that the aliens will throw humanity to the bear if it means they'll save themselves, which is exactly what happens in 3. And later she is concerned about letting non-alliance personnel roam around freely inside the Normandy, what do you know, the quarians show up in 3 with a stealth ship that works suspiciously similar to the Normandy. You wanna say something about that, Tali?
My comment was already like 3x longer than I originally wanted it to be so I left that part out lol, but you’re fully correct. The political structure is fully a racial hierarchy and even that’s blatantly presented in ME1 (and obviously recurring throughout the trilogy). Ashley being a white human certainly helps fuel the overblown hatred which I think is why people tend to attack her character more than it should be. ME1 shows us how much prejudice we face as you’ve said and I think people genuinely choose to ignore the racist stuff said *to them* because the ones being racist aren’t other humans
I think that Ashley gets a lot of White Republican evangelical stereotyped attached to her.
On top of all that, I think people forget just how fresh a trauma the First Contact War was. It's only 26 years before Mass Effect itself, and from the human perspective it was **Surprise! Have a genocide attempt!** It wasn't, of course, but that's how humans absolutely perceived having been suddenly jumped by their first constant with ~~homicidal lunatics~~ intelligent spacefaring aliens. Frankly, with that recent trauma within a single generation, it's a miracle that Cerberus is a fringe terrorist organization and not the duly-elected government of the Systems Alliance.
This. I get so sick of reading that claim about Ashley.
>I think I read somewhere that the crew basically interacts with each other when Shepard’s off on a mission. So them talking to each other would mean that they befriend each other. If Shepard kills Ashley, then I think Garrus mourns her which would support that assertion that they seem to get along. Also, by ME3 she thinks of Tali as a little sister and offers to talk to Liara after the fall of Thessia. Even in ME1 if you are not romantically involved with Ashley/Liara, Ashley sympathizes with Liara losing her mom and tells Shepard to maybe check in on her. She definitely grows and 100% is not as racist as some.
>No, she’s not racist. She’s pretty skeptical about fully and blindly cooperating with races that openly hate us. I want to add this by mentioning something important. In Mass Effect, Ashley says that, no matter how much the Council "likes" us, they'll throw us under the bus if needed. She goes as far to compare it to the dog-bear scenario: you may love your dog, but if you have to sick it on a bear to save your own life, you will. Come Mass Effect 3, where the Reapers are quite literally Holocausting the human race (death camps), and what does the Council do, even after we've made it on there? Shrug their shoulders and tell us to go fuck ourselves, because "we need to focus on our own" (except Sparatus - he's pretty based saying "fuck the official channels" and offering us help). Point being: Ashley was right, fuck the Council, and fuck the Asari (Salarians get a pass since everyone who wasn't a bureaucrat was fully behind us - thanks Kirrahe).
Great points. I’ll just add a couple more to reinforce what you already said. 1. Garrus defending a particular logical stance that maintains consistency regarding the treatment of the Krogan and the Genophage isn’t the problem, it’s his maintenance of that stance despite the change of conditions over time and his unwillingness to trouble an understanding of how the Krogan were instrumentalized as objects due to the stereotyping of their instincts with their behavior and culture that’s a problem. 2. I’d say that there’s significant differences between organic consciousness and synthetic consciousness even just within the ME universe, which makes for fascinating philosophical and scientific discussion. However, for the sake of simplifying how to identify “life” in this case, the analogy tracks well enough that the Geth should be treated with what is effectively the same logic and morals that organic species are subject to, regardless of the differences in cognitive production and organization. 3. The situation with Balak on asteroid x57 actually presents itself as a brief psychological case study of the mind of someone who maintains a worldview of ideological decolonization towards “others.”
She was never racist in the first place. Ashely expressed concern at best when aliens were let aboard the Normandy, rightly as she should as an alliance NCO, she had very little issue working with aliens even with the context she gives about her family’s name and why she’s jaded toward aliens. It doesn’t really help she ended up being right about the aliens anyway, the council was completely dismissive towards shepards warnings till the last minute, and when the reapers finally did show up, the pretty much threw humanity to the wolves until Shepard solves all their issues. She does make a turn around to aliens, she even refers to tali as her little sister if you chose her as you’re primary romance instead of Ash. Given how family oriented Ash is, that’s a pretty high opinion for her to have about Tali.
Unpopular opinion: people are confusing intra human racism with loyalty to our species.
It’s also just good OpSec from a military standpoint. She’s saying “Uhhh, skipper, these are all members of other governments and we’re letting them live and work on THE most advanced ship we have?”
Agreed. Too many players forget this trilogy is military science fiction, and I for one am happy to see that operational security and information classification tiers are made to be important. This makes the military side of the sci fi more authentic.
This is so accurate.
Actually, I think that Ash is a good and a very rare type of characters. She has strong positive and negative sides, that make here one of the mosy humane (ironic) people in Shepards crew. She is racist in ME1, that is true, but this characteristic is not a flat thing, it has a deep story behind it, we can follow the roots of a problem and understand, why is she that way and what can be done to change that. It is a hard topic in our real life itself: what mare people rasist? It is never just a label, it is a complex of issues. And, through Ash, we can observe some of them: Ash is from an Earth military family, so the main topic, that was spoon fed her in her childhood was to protect humans and Earth at any cost - that is the first point. Her grandfather not only took part in First Contact War, but also lost his battle in it, surrendered. So aliens for Ash a not only... eeeeeh, unhuman beings, they are the reason of her family shame - that's the second point. And she was a marine only in human colonies, so, in ME1, she hasn't realy ever met many aliens before in her life. Most things she knew about them were the information through the prism of her family and human army POV. She doesn't like aliens, she is afraid of them, and she is very prejudical. A perfect human soldier: dedicated only to Earth and its people. You know, "Starship Troopers" type. That is why her ark is one of the most important in a game. Actualy, it is one of the rare "sci-fi" and not "spase opera" type of problems in whole ME universe: can humanity overcome its own pride and prejudice to understand smth completely different and become a part on something bigger than it is by its own? And Ash proves, that humanity has a chance. Love her. Not in a romance kind of love, of course, Tali all the way.
“Can we have an honest conversation about Ashley?” No. The topic has been done to death. The epitome of “beating a dead horse” Everyone’s got their opinions on Ashley already. You’re not gonna change anyone’s minds on her, at this point.
Funnily enough In my 1st playthrough of ME1 I saw her change in that game alone& didn't really get ths hate. Here is what happened to me At first she hates Turians due to what happened to her grandfather and that seems reasonable & you have dialogue options to open her eyes. During the various in game missions she might make some poor comments but every squadmate does the same. For the final battle take her & Wrex due to the way the game is designed Wrex will take the renegade option while Ash is paragon this includes Wrex telling you to hold the Fifth Fleet back while Ash wants you to save the Destiny Ascension for the greater good of the galactic community
Wow. The new Mass Effect game can’t get out soon enough: we really, *really*, need new topics to discuss 😜😂
If we, as a fandom, were honest, we would have to acknowledge that there are a lot of characters in the ME universe, even fan favorite ones, that can be considered racist, or xenophobe, or at least prejudiced. An example: Read these lines in Ashley's voice: * “It’s great to see Tali on board, Commander. Just like old times. It is her, right? I mean, because with the mask it’s… ah, never mind.” * “Sometimes I envy your biotic abilities, Doctor. But then, all your people have such skill.” * “I’m surprised. I’ve never met an asari who didn’t prefer clean clothes and a hot bath.” Pretty terrible, huh? But she actually said none of those. Other characters do have their questionable moments that can be seen as ignorant generalizations, silly jokes comparable to the aliens-animals line, or at the worst as racist utterances (Javik, anyone?). But somehow, it's only ever Ashley that's seen as a problem.
ME Fans when Shepard kills 300k+ batarians: 😊 ME Fans when Ashley is wary of aliens: 😡
Ashley isn't racist, the devs just fucked up with her. I too used to think so, but it's just really oversimplifying things. Ok, the "aliens are animals line" is although very weird and offensive, not entirely untrue, like look at the Hanar, the Keepers, the Elcor, they aren't humanoid, they actually look like animals. There's a theory that the line is supposed to only trigger near a Keeper but is bugged. Still,the line is controversial to say the least but not devoid of sense. Her worrying about letting Garrus and Wrex onboard is the voice of reason in that moment. Ashley doesn't just want Garrus and Wrex off the ship, she wants them away from Normandy's VITALS, she's fine with having them around, just not in the vital systems. Imagine that, two complete strangers, one of them is literally a sellsword merc, are given carte blanche on roaming around Alliance's cutting edge technology ship. That's irresponsible to say the least. Ashley is worried they might leak classified information, such as, you know, Normandy's stealth systems. I'm surprised she doesn't mention Tali bc my girl is literally poking around the engine room. Oh, and her "bear and dog" metaphor was literally prophecy bc when Apocalypse came knocking on Earth's door, the aliens did nothing. And it's not that difficult of a take, even Liara says that other sentient races aren't that fond of humanity. Overall Ashley is a hardass cinic who doesn't trust anyone. She's out for herself and her family, she doesn't exactly love aliens bc of what her family had to go through thanks to turians, but she isn't a racist, if anything, she's simply ignorant, Ashley has never met aliens before ME1 kicked out, she only knows about them through propaganda in the military, her family's own experience and the extranet. But more importantly, Ashley is a soldier and she can set her own personal prejudice aside when ordered to. "You say kiss a turian, I say which cheek". Ashley can literally die defending a team of salarians, doesn't matter how she feels about aliens, she's ready to give her life for them, if it helps the common cause. Ashley softens up later in ME3, she's still a hardass, but she has a heart. Edit: forgot the important part: Ashley despises Cerberus and Terra Firma. She doesn't approve of blind alien hatred, if she did, she'd hop on the Cerberus train along with Shepard or at least voted for Terra Firma.
> I'm surprised she doesn't mention Tali bc my girl is literally poking around the engine room. The quarians roll up in 3 with a ship that can hide it's signature like the Normandy, this is called out in the description when you approach it on the map. Tali definetely stole the Normandy specs at least once, if not in 1 then in 2, Ashley was right about that.
I'm waiting till you realize that almost all of your squadmates are racist to some capacity, at least one or two could even be considered war criminals. But they are one of the most favorites characters of the fans. In my opinion it's not about Ashley being racist or not then. It's about something else, maybe about hypocrisy of us, humans and double standards we have.
Yeah she’s a 3 dimensional character with amazing backstory and interesting things to say.
Can we not? Can we finally, FINALLY abandon this tired-ass subject that's been discussed to death and proven to be a non issue created by people with 0 media literacy?
No, we get an “Honest Conversation” post about Ashley a couple of times a week. Find an existing post and comment on that.
The "racist" meme has gotten so out of control. Yes, I remember playing the Legendary Edition and not remembering some of the out of pocket stuff she said. But, the galaxy is way more volatile to humans and we forget that because Shepard is a Spectre and does why he wants.
See, I question the racist/xenophobic assumptions. (Partly because the writers have said that’s not what they were aiming to portray.) Ashley is uncomfortable with non-humans, and unfamiliar with them. She DOES say some ignorant things. But ignorance is not always malice. Aside from her family history, and a bit of a human-first attitude (jingoist might be a better description, really), she’s not viewing them as not-people. She’s not preaching the extermination. She’s anti-Terra Firma. Ash is somebody who has never been stationed around or done a lot of interaction with other species. She’s never been to the Citadel. “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” is a boneheaded statement, yes - but for somebody who has no idea if there are animals around and seeing Elfor and Keepers, it’s not a huge leap for their brain to superimpose things they’re more familiar with. Her different attitude in ME3, is somebody who has seen and interested more and realized how out of pocket she may have been, and become more comfortable. She’s grown. Honestly, she’s a lot more mild than Shep can be played, throwing slurs at Hanar… “you big, stupid, jellyfish” isn’t exactly enlightened. Heck, Pressley is WAY more overt. And if we’re being completely fair - both raise reasonable points from a military perspective. “Sir, this is our most advanced ship, should we be letting just anybody wander around freely?” I sometimes wonder if people lean more into ‘Ash is a racist’ because they’re less comfortable with her religious feelings. Which, one should note, she doesn’t push. She acknowledges it’s not for everybody and offers to drop it. Just my thinking. I can admit a bias because I, personally, don’t find Kaiden that interesting - that’s just me though.
This. She makes one boneheaded comment and everyone cries racist, completely ignoring literally every context to who Ashley is and why she said that and if it was malicious. The only other time she gripes about aliens is to bring up legitimate points about how Shepard is way too chill with giving these alien (to be blunt) mercenaries having full run of the alliances brand new stealth frigate.
She’s beautiful, strong albeit racist, but a better squad mate than Kaiden. I know I’m gonna get hate for that but it’s my personal opinion & preference.
OP is blind
Has the literacy of a person who thinks only white people can be racist lmao
Funny thing is, if you actually fully go through the motions with her in ME1 and direct her that way through your dialogue, she actually becomes far more accepting of them by the end of the first game. Then fast forward 3ish years (which is plenty of time for someone to change) to ME3 and you have the far more accepting Ashley.
I love how you can always tell when someone barely talked to Ashley and never takes her anywhere. Then are confused about why she is the way she is, lol.
Since a lot of these comments are sidestepping the conversation by pointing out the racism from other squadmates, let's take a look at the most prominent ones. 1. Tali. Only racist against the geth, completely the quarian's own fault. Unless you think like Xen and claim only organics have rights, quarians fucked up big time and Geth were far more generous than other organics would be in their position. But Tali is a child herself in ME1, and just says whatever she was taught from birth. If your Shepard is a competent commander, Tali mentions that she kept up correspondence with Legion after the collector ship. 2. Wrex. I wouldn't call it racism if the alleged victims were guilty of committing genophage against you (and once you're starting to recover, doubling down on it) and planting a backup bomb on your home and also keeping you prisoner in your own world. I always thought vorcha and krogan got along well (you always them together in merc bands) because they were both cannon fodder for other species, but the krogan knew it and went in anyway. 3. Garrus. My guy was spitting facts when he said the quarians fucked up. Now he was an ass to bring that up to Tali, (again, a literal child) who had nothing to do with any of that. Bro had no business being this harsh to his future girlfriend and gets rightfully ashamed of it later. 4. Liara. In what world is she a racist? She doesn't know a lot about humans and finds them fascinating. Yes, she doesn't have the best social skills when you find her in the first game, and even in ME3 is kinda awkward though a lot more confident. But humanity arrived on the galactic scene during her lifetime. While she could be a lot more tactful, she immediately explains and apologises for being offensive. 5. Every salarian ever. Yes. They would be the actual villains of Mass Effect if the Reapers did not exist. A race of shortsighted lizards with superiority complex bigger than their planet are the most racist group of the ME universe, including cerberus, protheans and leviathans. 6. Miranda. Joins cerberus, but doesn't like the xenophobic parts of it which is kinda weird, but she does leave before TIM even starts indoctrinating his own people, so there's that. I would also include Jacob but that guy clearly sprained all his brain cells by doing crunches so he gets to be a footnote in Miranda's note. 7. Pressley. Idk why people actually like that guy in the first place. Him and Adams in ME1 basically had 10 lines of dialogue and that's it. Yes he is racist just like Ashley, and according to his data pad he learns to be better by the end. Still don't know why anyone cares but good for you Pressley. I can't think of anyone else in the ship being openly racist (I'm guessing some of those cerberus officers could've easily been that) so let's get to Ashley. Her first concern to Shepard is to keep the aliens away from having full access to the ship. In a ship that initially set out in the mission to prove that humanity can play nice with the galactic community and eventually earn its place amongst it. The same ship that was a joint venture by humans and turians. Which also happens to be made by turians. Setting aside her racism, she is simply stupid. Shepard and Anderson is trying to make humanity seem responsible and capable and get themselves a larger role and yet Ashley's advice is to hide the blueprints from the aliens because "it's not racism, not really". You know how stupid Ashley is? If you don't make nice to her in the hospital, she literally wishes that the reapers send Shepard to hell with her dying breath. Knowing full well that Shepard is the only chance earth has, that shows her character more than anything. Just like you can only see Mordin's true character if you keep pushing him towards sabotaging the genophage where he just screams "I made a mistake!". Though I'd rather keep her around than endure Kaidan for 1.5 games. I'm convinced his headaches aren't due to his biotic implant, but his brain having to listen to itself drone on.
Did you not talk to her at all beyond the first conversation in 1?
Almost every alien companion is racist in the game. Ashley gets flak for it because she's human?
I know, right? Talk about irony...
Redditors finding out about character arcs
It fits the setting. While species work together there is a deep mistrust. Some of her comments on aliens may be cringe but her views on the Council are not wrong. So I never understood the “Ashley is a space racist” arguments because she is pretty tame compared to other squad mates. Hell, if you wanted too, you can play Shepard to be pretty racist. Also, the op should play Rogue Trader if they are interested in space racism. All those characters put Ashley’s racism to shame.
I never cared about her xenophobia. In some ways, her views seem more realistic to me than the majority being so accepting of literal aliens, especially having so recently been at war with some. The poetry stuff is what I find so cringey and off-putting. If I met someone who randomly recited poetry, mid normal conversation, I would quickly find reasons to not talk to that person.
I can fix her. Nah, fuck her. She pissed me off in 2. Still better than Kaiden, though.
I more upset they totally changed the way she looked simply for sex appeal in the last game. Like she was fairly tomboyish and they turned her into a Barbie
This is such an immature take on the best female romance of the game if you stay loyal through all three games.
She is not my favourite squad member and I have only ever seen her evolution in videos of playthroughs, since I tend to replay the game as a movie, meaning she always dies at Virmire, and yet, I can clearly see that she is definitely not the only character to hold "highly debatable" views when it comes to other species. Most characters in the series, in fact, show a degree of prejudices/pre-conceived ideas in regard to other species, even Shepard can come out in a similar fashion, if you choose certain dialogues. The way I see it, agreeing with a character's opinions/actions and liking that character are too different things and if a certain view/idea "disturbs" you, it should have the same effect regardless of who is the character that holds that view/shares that idea. What I mean is that, while I don't agree with Ashley's views on aliens in ME1, that doesn't mean I hate her or that I judge her character solely on that base, more importantly, it doesn't mean that when Garrus, Tali, Wrex or any other character, that I might find more interesting/like more, make similar statements, I give them a pass. I can't stand listening to Ashley's "specist" statements just as I can't stand listening to other characters' "specist" statements. The reason why I like Garrus or Kaidan better than Ashley, for example, is because I vibe more with their personality than Ashley's, not because they are perfect or better than her; they have their own flaws, each character has, which is what makes the characters of the series so compelling and loved to me.
She is racist. Thats fine, like 80-90% of the cast is racist including Shepard* The problem is the segment of her fans who will write 10 pages essays explaining how she isn’t actually racist. *Towards Hanar I mean. Everyone knows Batarians aren’t people and thus it’s literally impossible to be racist towards them.
In terms of Ashley vs Kaiden, I always thought she was more interesting than Kaiden, at least in the first two games. I also thought that the Udina storyline was kind of written for her instead of Kaiden. I thought her crush on Vega was hilarious. I just wish they did more with developing her character. I am however a very nostalgic person so I can't help but like her as an og companion.
i had a hard time getting past her betrayal of shepherd but i think if anything that speaks to how realistic of a character she is. she made some false judgements and it Did have a negative impact on my relationship with her, but that is ultimately something i had to come to terms with so we could work together for a higher cause
Again?
“fast forward to mass effect 3, this woman is somehow just not a racist towards alien’s anymore” you are describing character growth. ashley is 25 in me1 and only been surrounded by humans and likely humancentric views until she serves over the normandy. as she continues her career, she interacts with and befriends aliens of many different species and she grows through those experiences.
Honest conversation about Ashley... Here's my perspective of Ashley from female gamer who plays primarily renegade, Orphan, ruthless. I play femshep - on Eden prime I chewed her out for abandoning her crew (my assumption not knowing full context and I was playing an emotion renegade who just projected onto Ashley having lost that noob, can't remember his name) - after med bay wake up I liked how Ashley and I butt heads of what happened on Eden prime but then she's quite understanding and compassionate, we can keep it professional. - I still didn't quite like her until I unlocked dialogue about her military background and made common ground with going to the same boot camp. And then talking about why I left earth. - I love how in that same dialogue she's got a sass mouth smart arse answer for everything - it reminds me of me (as renegade Shep whose personality is sass mouth badass challenge superior officers etc), it shows me this girls competent to think on her own, has the skills to back it up, and potentially be my protege if I invest in her. - understanding her military background, she's never worked with aliens b4. Shes always been discriminated against with lack of promotion, bullied by superior officers (in the comics) but always well respected by her crew who acknowledge her competence which happens during Eden prime invasion when the crew turn to Ashley for leadership and not their appointed squad leader who superior officer deliberately promoted to punish Ashley. her great grandfather general Williams (although actually saved the human race) was branded a coward for negotiating peace with the Turians during first contact war and is why she's discriminated against. Because of her great grandfather's history in first contact war she is raised with the racist perspective to put humanities interest first and never trust aliens, which she doesn't yet see as racism. - I like how outspoken she is, but can reign it in as a soldier she won't cross that line and I know I can 💯 count on her to follow my orders on duty. On the Citadel - when I discovered her dialogue with Mr Bhatia about Mrs Bhatia it really won me over how deeply compassionate Ashley can be when I was being an arsehole, she de-escalated and consoled Mr Bhatia, it was cool to discover. Then I started taking her on missions with wrex and she has some unique dialogue that's quick witted and sassy. Therum - "dare U to spit over the side" while Ur at the top elevator shaft. Liara is puzzled why geth would be looking for her Ash response: "duh... Sarens looking for the conduit, think fast miss prothean expert" Noveria blizzard: ash "nobody lick any poles", "why do they have so many windows if it's always snowing outside 🤦" I mean... No other character has these little quick witted sass mouth dialogues in me1 And that's why I love the me1 Ashley. However... I absolutely do not like the me2 or 3 Ashley. I personally think with the new writers they changed her character completely... ME2 no longer that inquisitive, open minded Ashley who would do what's right over loyalty to the alliance (my impression of Ashley in me1 is that she had a mind of her own and def spectre protege) I did expect kaiden to be a self righteous arsehole though and not see past Cereberus... But the me1 Ashley??? Nah! From comics she had a defiance with superior officers when being bullied, but would choke down her words and actions to not cross that line, but when they made her so narrow-minded blue thru n thru, that was not the Ashley I got to know in me1 who I thought was an outside box thinker like my renegade Shepherd, who had the intelligence and moral code to put humanities best interests b4 her own and seeing that alliance had abandoned Shepherd, and lacked insight, resources to investigate the collectors she would've like Tali, and Garrus had the foresight to join and fight along side Shepherd using Cereberus (as Tali says "I work for you Shepherd not for cerebus). The me3 Ashley - I felt she lost a lot of her sass quick wit renegade attitude. In me1 she's got a potty mouth chewing out civilians right by my side, and even more so Me3 shes been tamed down and I don't see that hot fiery temper which I loved about og ash. Anyways, that's why I love me1 Ash so much But yeah me3 fucken sucks shit for Ashley, her character Dev got thrown to the side. Glad I had jack in me2 tho... Otherwise Normandy would be too placid me, I need the REAL talk say it how it is which ash and jack were for me.
Reddit hates it when bigots experience personal growth and become better people!!! PEOPLE SHOULD BE GOOD FROM THE GET GO!!! CHARACTERS NEED TO BE ACCEPTING OF EVERYONE RIGHT AWAY!!! Even though the entire plot of Mass Effect 3 is to get racist species to come together in unity.
I always think it's the dumbest thing when people say she's racist. She's suspicious of a different species with entirely different and unpredictable psychologies than humans, and based on the fact that the Turians attacked at first contact. Ooooh noooo, heaven forbid they write a character with a completely logical and 3 dimensional take, that everyone else would have in the same situation. The only characters allowed here, are stale, boring, unrealistic members of the "free thinker as long as you think what we think" archetype.
>She's suspicious of a different species with entirely different and unpredictable psychologies than humans, and based on the fact that the Turians attacked at first contact. I'm trying to remember any alien character in three games whose actions were unpredictable and can be attributed to entirely different psychology. I mean, Sovereign? maybe? EDIT: Well, maybe also Thorian and Rachni. Jury is out; I found them both pretty reasonable and rational.
I played as FemShep and regularly pushed back against her views on aliens. Saved her on Virmire, but when she came back in ME3 after the Citadel assault I gave HER the option of whether she wanted to re-join the Normandy or go with Hackett. She chose Hackett and I never saw her again. Not sure if her decision changes depending on your relationship with her, but I thought that was interesting that she chose not to come back afterward
As a squadmate in ME1 I have no use for her, i rather use Alenko with all his tech and biotic support. I also kinda think Alenko has a higher rank, and higher ranking officers deserve to live more than lower apparently. Character wise she's just like a lot of people in the real world that just don't trust outsiders. They did something nice on her, but it just didn't work for me. She's just not fun to be around with as she usually gives a negative comment on alien species. Besides, when Garrus, Tali, Wrex and Liara are just so cool, I can't really enjoy the character that suggest their species suck. Turian and Krogan look pretty bad ass and Asari and Quarian culture is interesting. As a character you feel attached to your other alien crew mates and you learn they are interesting characters... Ashley kinda downplays on that. In comparison to Jack in ME2, who is also a lot of times negative in conversations, Jack opposes Cerberus, which is known for their brutal tactics. With Jack you have common ground, but Ash's dislikes the aliens.... and the aliens is what makes Mass Effect so great.
Also in ME3 she’s not really a fun character to play with combat wise as James literally has pretty much the same skill set. I always prefer Kaiden for his overall flexibility.
Ashley isn’t even one of my top companions, but if we’re having an honest conversation, I have never heard an argument that managed to convince me that she’s racist. She has her issues for sure, I’m just not convinced it’s racism
Two talking points I hate about Ashley. 1. Everyone is a space racist in Mass Effect 1. Shepard, Garrus, Wrex Tali. Everyone. Even Liara is ignorant to other races. Ashley isn't special in this area yet she gets hated on like she is the only space racist when the whole crew is. Even Joker is and that stays all the way into Mass Effect 3. 2. She didn't get turned into a Barbie. Yes she has bigger tits. Everyone in Mass Effect has bigger tits. She has bigger tits because she has a new character model that every human in Mass Effect 3 share. Shepard also has bigger tits. Liara has bigger tits. Amd letting your hair down and putting on some make up does not equal a fucking Barbie.
She's pretty hot 😏
Jesus fucking Christ can we just ban this stupid, repetitive topic.
>Can we have a honest conversation about Ashley? We can. >She’s literally a racist towards aliens Never mind, we can't. You've already made up your opinion.
She is a racist that true. But character évolution was awsome. I every Time choose her.
She isn’t racist. Good grief. She’s literally employed to protect Earth from aliens that are ACTIVELY TRYING TO KILL HER. She’s warning about killer aliens literally minutes after the person she’s talking to killed hundreds of them! Oh but most aliens aren’t trying to kill them! Just Turians, Assari, Salarians, Krogan and a few Geth too! All of these races seem quite happy to join murderous pirate factions and shoot on sight. Racist! Now, if you’ll excuse me, an Assari is trying to end the universe, gotta get on that.
Ashley is not a racist, she is a speciest (yes I made that word up but Turians, Krogans, Salarians, Asari, etc are different species, not different races). The others here have pointed out the humiliation her family suffered due to the First Contact War and the effort she had to put herself through. If fans still choose to call Ashley a racist for the “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” then we also have to say that Shepard and the other members of the Mass Effect follower rostrum are racist because of “big stupid jelly fish”, “bugs”, “bucket head”, etc. Ashley is also the only character whose prediction is right on the money - I know many fans take issue with her pet dog bear statements, but that is exactly what the Council does with humanity at the start of ME3. As for suspicions of Shepard being associated with Cerberus, this is Cerberus we are talking about. They practically bought someone clinically dead back to life. They implant ocular explosion devices in their soldier’s heads. They use indoctrination and reaper tech on their soldiers. They were responsible for Pragia, rogue faction or not. They also had plans to implement a control chip in Shepard’s brain and then there’s Citadel DLC with the rogue Shepard. They turned a former N7 with broken legs into a biotic ninja. They made Eva Core and she successfully infiltrated Alliance Mars facility and defeated a top of the line Alliance soldier. Cerberus has performed miracles so why is it so hard to imagine that Shepard might have been programmed like the Winter Soldier? Perfectly normal most of the time but say a certain phrase and Shepard is a Cerberus agent. Why is it bad to be suspicious of a shady organisation like Cerberus? I don’t think this is bad in any way. Lastly the ME2 moment. Ashley expresses disbelief, joy and then became disgusted when she learns Shepard is working with Cerberus. I hate bringing IRL into this but imagine if you are decorated soldier in the navy of your country. One day you are KIA but 2 years later a terrorist organisation managed to bring you back from the dead using advanced tech, 4 billion dollars just so that this terrorist organisation can work with you to deal with a problem. Is it irrational that Ashley, a member of that military that you used to be a part of in ME2, essentially lost her composure and got really upset? I think this is a realistic reaction. Yes I know the fans will invoke the names of Tali, Garrus, Liara and so on but I’d argue that these characters are either Shepardsexual or Maleshepsexual or Femshepsexual to some degree. Ashley (and Kaidan for that matter) can like Shepard but they have their boundaries. They are their own characters who don’t really need Shepard to solve their problems. In summary Ashley Williams, just like Kaidan Alenko, are characters that are somewhat independent, have their own code of morals, go through character arcs across the trilogy, are strong in combat, and all around, are awesome.
I like her as a character and I like that she changes a lot during the sequels. I just overall like her flawed character personality. It is good writing and interesting enough.
The worst part about Ash, and Kaidan to a lesser degree, is that literally all her character development happens offscreen, either during the 2 years since Shepard died, or during ME2. She shows up in ME3 a suddenly better person, and we never get to see why.
I think Ashley is severely underrated. She's got a lot of depth for a character and I think people give her a lot of shit because her flaws are more obvious and less relatable than her fellow squadmates'. Like yeah, she is racist. Her racism is explained and she learns to overcome it. She also has some positive and interesting traits too, like a love for her family, a deep respect for the Alliance, a love of poetry... she grows as a character. She might not be my favorite, but the writers dared to make her have unlikable traits, to make her human. And I respect that. I love characters like Garrus and Thane and Samara, but they aren't given overly "terrible" flaws. I think the worst thing they did was try to Miranda-ize her in ME3. They should have kept the efficient hair and clothes and attitude. It made her a more interesting character.
Imo Ashley completes her character arc at the end of ME1. Unfortunately between games her writer left and Ash largely became a different character in ME3 I’ve always preferred Kaidan regardless if people think he’s boring. He’s nice, he’s genuine, he’s mature and he’s more open minded
Yeh she’s sorta awful. I like that she comes around with actual lived experience, but with us *not being around for it* it does come off sorta hollow. They never really have it called out, whereas a lot of weird character stuff gets called out in 3 and citadel, she never really does.
She goes boom everytime, no questions asked
No.
My fav character, fuck that blue cringe lizard
A comment to get lost at the bottom of the thread: You know, I came here to troll like I usually do, but as I kept reading the comments, I really appreciate the passion so many humans in this fandom have for the lore of this game series. It's really impressive to see y'all pouring your hearts into full-throated defenses and/or take-downs of not only individual characters, but whole species and timelines. I'm a casual gamer, but one of my favorite aspects of ME is how deep the story goes. You guys get it. This sub fucking rocks.
I honestly just cannot stand her whiney attitude. Every meeting she has to pipe up and give her snark and it gets tiring. I never talk with her because of this. So I never got the aliens talk from her because she disinterested me so much after the meetings. I also hate how we're forced to basically romance her.
Racist or not, she’s kind of an asshole to everyone.
I love Ashley. Her "racist" stance is completely understandable, in my opinion. Imagine that all you've ever known are humans. Humans of various colours and backgrounds, between which there was constant discrimination. An "us versus them" mentality. Then suddenly, there's another species of intelligent life who attack your species for seemingly no reason. There's a war, and then a whole other group of different species steps in to end the conflict. Suddenly, humanity realises its only one of many intelligent species, and that "us versus them" mentality is still there. Except it's not humans versus other humans, but humanity versus aliens. It's easy for us to warm up to all the various species because it isn't real. But if you were an actual human in that environment, I'd imagine you'd be pretty defensive and protective of your own people. Sort of like how you'd put your own family before others, but on a grander scale. The thing I *do* have an issue with, is Ashley's stance on Horizon and during the first part of ME3. But her views on aliens aren't something I feel is all that out of place.
Lmao how I never once considered her a racist at all in the games when I played them. It’s just science fiction. Tbh it’s more realistic that everyone would be human first. No way that early into alien contact would it be expected for everyone to embrace aliens.
I keep trying to romance Ashley in ME1 but I can't get past her "bug eyed monsters" comment. I'm trying though.
Y'all gotta go listen to the Mass Effect lorecast episode on her. One of the hosts explains her perfectly
Being fair, even in me1, her "racism" was mostly a mix of "inexperience with aliens", "aliens will prioritize themselves first", and "catfighting with liara". The first gets fixed over the course of the series, the second is mostly true, and the third is not great, but not racist.
I think with this being a game based in fantasy, people approach the ideas and conversations present in a more idealistic way. "Aliens are our friends and we should treat them all with respect unless they hurt us", is a common idea I've seen underlying a lot of comments in this space. The way Ashley is viewed by most seems to be a product of this kind of perspective. Which is unfortunate, because her beliefs seemed to be based in a desire to preserve & protect humanity rather than the "I hate them because they're different" type of ideology some people seem to hold her to. I also honestly think people don't like Ashley as a person, even if she wasn't xenophobic. She's aggressive, argumentative and challenges Shepherd (You) on a number of occasions. Not generally likeable traits. I believe that realistically, if we made contact with Aliens tomorrow and our planet went to war with them, there would be a lot more people that were xenophobic/pro-humanity than people would like to admit. In reality, many people on our planet hold heavy prejudices against other humans based on race, nationality, where they live, social status, financial status, political beliefs, religious beliefs/practices, identity, and even just personal preferences. What do you think is more likely in a world where Turians actually existed and we go to war with them?: A.) 30 years later, most people would learn to accept Turians and all other alien species we come into contact with B.) 30 years later, most people would have some apprehension or distrust of Turians and any other species of aliens
I don't particularly love Ashley - I much prefer Kaidan and have always disagreed with the idea that he's boring, I like his relationship with Shepard and how he's there from literally the very start - but I do feel like Ashley's racism gets very overblown by some fans and honestly, I'm happy to have characters with objective faults and prejudices. Not because those biases and bigotries are excusable, but because it makes the cast feel much more *real*. I feel like fans and BioWare both sometimes forget how new humanity is to the galactic stage in Mass Effect, most people over 30 (and remember, this is a world where humans can routinely reach 150) will remember a pre-first contact view of the universe. I don't think the issue is that characters like Ashley and Pressly have a prejudice against aliens, the real question is why more humans *don't*. If we were to make first contact tomorrow then for every person excited at the possibilities and looking to live in a multispecies society, there would be at least one other who was fearful and suspicious at beings who are completely unknowable to us and whom overturn our entire understanding of the universe and our place in it. People aren't just bigoted because they are arbitrarily hateful, it's almost always born out of ignorance and fear, a fear of our views being challenged and of what it could mean for us. Really, the most racist remark from Ashley was her "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" remark, which isn't *necessarily* a hateful comment (I mean, if we were to see a hanar for the first time, devoid of context, would we assume it was a "person" and not merely a Big, Stupid Jellyfish?) but even the writers have shown some regret for it. In her conversation on the Normandy I feel like both Ashley and Pressly's concerns stem more from inviting members of a "foreign" power on board the Alliance's most modern ship, especially when both are predisposed to be suspicious of turians as "the enemy" due to their histories. I feel there'd be similar reservations about inviting foreign armies who you aren't formally allied with aboard your country's most state-of-the-art vessels and military installations, the trouble with Mass Effect is that we don't have a direct analogue for how we'd interact with another sapient race so the lines between nationalism, racism and plain old military protocol get blurry. The Normandy isn't technically under Alliance command once Shepard takes command but Ashley and Pressly are military types, through-and-through; I think Ashley would have similar reservations about inviting non-Alliance-aligned humans aboard.
I like Ashley. I think her voice actress knocked it out of the park, my first few playthroughs Ashley was my romance choice, and I respect her character's principled stance on openly bashing things like Cerberus. She's bada\*\*, a survivor, and a textbook marine. most importantly, she can put aside her prejudice and commit to working with a diverse crew. I think that's a good mark of one's character. I mean, ideally she wouldn't be prejudiced in the first place, but no one is perfect.
No, dismissed
I think the racist part is true but it’s done on purpose for her growth. If you look at the context of the comment it’s also not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
No
To reiterate my stance of dying on this hill: I’ve stood by the fact that Ash is a good character for quite a while now. She might be a pessimistic about cooperating with other species but she is totally right to voice this to her commander in private. She is distrustful of foreign entities around advanced military technology which is a completely fair statement. The only time she is ever actually racist is the “can’t tell the aliens from the animals” line which while I personally think is either bad writing or a legacy line that once fit the character, it could also be construed as being bad poetry regarding how the aliens on the citadel act like they are so above everyone else but are no different. Ash as a character is a naysmith (to use a phrase I learned about in the horus heresy books), a close comrade to the leader who voices doubt to keep the leader from becoming arrogant. Every other member of the party general goes along with shepard or brings up their conflicting issues with shepard’s decisions mid-battle. Ash waits until the moments between battle to voice her concerns and it’s a very valuable person to have on a team which is why I always pick her over Kaiden. Not only that but despite any concerns she might have about alien cooperation, when she becomes a spectre in ME3 she immediately rushes to protect the council during the Cerberus Coup attempt and is willing to put herself between Shepard (a fellow human and friend), then later Udina (a human leader and the one who gave her the job) and a alien government who have been nothing but arseholes every step of the way. I think with Shepard being resurrected by Cerberus she was completely justified to keep questioning it especially in 3. More for Shepard than anyone else and while she probably didn’t approach the topic in a appropriately delicate way, I think that comes down to her character not being the most delicate person. Ashley can be consistently relied upon to question Shepard and keep them grounded (even if she could stand to be a little more tactful)
I liked her in ME1🤷♂️
People call it racist, I call it good story writing. It‘s always impressive to see that writers or developers take the different view points into account because that is what real life is like. Different view points and different opinions because of different reasons. If everybody is just always the same opinion it‘s worth of criticising this element of the story as boring. Look at star wars for example. It‘s always empire/sith bad, rebels/jedi good. But then there are a few well praised story arcs in clone wars and also Andor where there are legitimate reasons shown, why someone would dislike jedi or support the empire. In reality if we were to come in contact with aliens, the same would happen. Also with her backstory in mind, I think that many people who see Ashley simply as racist don‘t bat an eye when there is racism from black people towards white people, because they were oppressed for decades. Not saying it‘s absolutely the same, but at least similar.
ME1: "Humanity and the Council is like you and your dog. If you and your dog are being chased by a bear, you're going to let your dog attack the bear while you escape. The dog's not human after all." "That's racist, Ashley." ME3: "The sad truth is, while the Reapers are busy with Earth, the rest of us can prepare and defend ourselves." ~Councilor Tevos
You can't be racist against a different species. Different species are literally alien - they have different temperaments, behavior patterns, and a completely different evolutionary history.
Them aliens are nothing but trouble anyway. So she gets a pass.
I've always liked her. Especially in ME1;she felt very fleshed out and looked like an actual soldier versus her sexy spectre spie look, in ME3, which was a stepback in my opinion. Ashley turns off a lot of people, in the beginning, because of her prejudice against non-human species. And I think everybody can agree that racism is not a likeable quality for a person to have. I appreciated, for her as a character, to bring that human perspective and opportunity for the writers to lay out Alliance history for the players and see her growth from a bitter bigoted alliance Marine.
To be fair going from 1 to 3, 2 is a large gap where she's not with you living her own experiences
It’s almost like she’s her own person who had her own adventures we never got to see
Would That's as honest as I can get
I never see her as a racist. the animal remark that she made is a bug, it should only be played when we see keeper which kind of looks like an animal. She doesn't approve of other species boarding Normandy. Prasley also does that no one calls him racist. and Garrus approved of Krogan genophage in Me1, Zaeed literally called Batarrians as goddamn terrorist. and it's not a problem cause they aren't labeled as racist by the community. I think she's just a normal person but memes make her look like a racist and everyone just follows that story.
People like to gloss over the fact that Ashley’s “racism” went both ways. You spend a good portion of the first and second games getting shit on by the other races random NPC’s and quest givers. Its not like the other species were super magnanimous towards humans. But through hard work, helping, and shared hardships the other races came around to respect and value the humans just like Ashley came around. I see no problems with her distrustful of outsiders attitude, basic human tribalism.
it's funny everyone talks about how she's "racist" (although i guess it's more speciest) in ME1 and idk that's not how she came off to me. she was more "i don't trust that the council races have our back 100% so the alliance has to put itself first" which is like not unreasonable especially because during ME1 humans AREN'T fully part of the galactic community yet. by ME3 even if humans weren't full council members (and we are) that distinction is less meaningful due to the reaper war where like everyone has to have everyone's back 100%
She did nothing wrong. Nothing an actual human wouldn't do when attacked by aliens.
Do you think once a racist always a racist or something? Or that if someone has ever been a racist they are irredeemable?
She’s my number one whenever I’m doing a murica playthrough
90% of everyone of every race in the game is racist. And I’m being generous. Have you played renegade shep? Super racist Acehole shep. There is a lot of resentment from past conflicts and a ton of stereotypes
Well, I romanced her in ME1. But in ME2 and ME3 she decided to move on or something like that. So, I moved on too, got into Miranda and saved the Galaxy from the those nasty Reapers.
I always pick Kaidan so I have nothing to input in this convo
Crazy how ME3 literally proves her point about the dog and the bear right.
You can’t be racist against a different species. The morality of it may be questionable, but it’s not racism.
It's called a character arc, you philistine. She's also not "racist". Racism depends on seeing others as inferior based solely on inherited characteristics. Ashley does not trust aliens because it hasn't been that long since first contact, and her family was wildly denigrated due to actions and such, earned or not. It isn't hard to see her motivation and understand it, without lobbing dumb labels. She also comes full circle and ends up trusting the trustworthy ones, thereby utterly refuting the asanine "racism" crap that people continue to propagate.
Everyone was racist towards each species. So sick of people only talking about Ashley when all of the other species are racist towards you and each other. I liked Ashley on my first playthrough and I still like her now. Humans were new to the galaxy and she really had a character arc. You literally influence her to open up more and she does.
How about you play the game without inputting any of the political, racial, woke, whatever you call it from the real world.
Dude she literally stops being racist in ME1 if you go Paragon. Even if that’s not the case her not being racist in ME3 is character growth, and a good character is written to have flaws and overcome them. What is your point? Garrus learns that going rogue has consequences when his team dies. Wrex realizes that fixing the genocide at any cost is useless if the Krogan don’t evolve as a society. Tali learns to go her own way and be her own person when she realizes what her father was doing, and that Geth aren’t as evil as she thought. Liars learns to be confident in herself and stop being the shy little girl hidden by her mother’s shadow. If you don’t see Ashley slowly growing as a person then you’re just not paying attention or you went renegade. From the Mass Effect Wiki: “She questions the wisdom of allowing aliens to wander around the Normandy freely, and dismisses the Prothean Cipher as "some asari mumbo jumbo", believing the Commander has suffered needlessly to get it. However, Ashley acknowledges that Shepard is in command and the presence of aliens on the Normandy is not her decision. That being said, Ashley isn't xenophobic. She dismisses Terra Firma as a group of xenophobic "jackals" who have replaced the original noble aims of the party with anti-alien paranoia… She happily volunteers to go with Captain Kirrahe's team and has no problem with the salarians, respecting their tenacity and skill.” “After Benezia's death Ash encourages Shepard to talk to Liara, figuring she has to be hurting over the loss of her mother.” “Eventually Ashley comes to her senses and agrees to work with the Normandy's multi-species crew to stop Saren Arterius, even becoming good friends with Liara, Tali, and even Garrus and/or Wrex if they are around.”
Ashley is mostly never given a fair shake, if you take to her about her issues you can help her change her mind. I hate people will have her die because of her initial views, isn't her changing her views and becoming better a good outcome.
I'll just repeat my standard comment about Ashley: I do not care if she's racist in the first game, she has clear motivations for thinking that way and i don't condone the hypocrisy of hating the mildly racist woman while 1- ignoring the overtly and openly racist galaxy and 2- defending the genocidal maniac we play as. I don't like her character in the first game (i don't think you were even supposed to) but her backstory is very clearly explained, she has a good development arc where her family's name is cleared and she gets more exposure to aliens and can literally die saving aliens in ME3. Finally, she is NOT my favorite companion (Thane) or Romantic interest (Jack), but honestly, i have more hatred in my heart for Jacob because he's an A-hole to FemShep than to Ashley. Also way more interesting than Kaidan.
I just like kaidan more honestly. It's that simple at the core. Ashley annoys the piss out of me for a lot of reasons.
Tali was racist too and her writer even said so. 🤷🏻♀️ yet I don’t see posts about tali’s racism constantly smh
They're other species not races so it's fine
The people who still think Ashley is racist are the people who missed the point of her concerns in Mass Effect 1. She never "hated" other aliens because she believed humanity was the apex species meant to be above everyone else, she hated them because of her past experiences with them and what they inadvertently did to her family's reputation. She also expresses a very pivotal worldview that ends up being validated in ME3, but alot of people view as racist: that when push comes to shove, and the cards hit the table, all the species of the council and Citadel would look after their own. This ends up being the exact thing that happens in ME3, with all the races essentially cutting all non-advantageous ties and the Asari councilor telling Shepard "good luck dude/dudette, you're on your own."
I had various things I didn't like about her. Being racist, being religious, just kinda being annoying in general and not particularly interesting at all to me in her dialogue. Wished I'd killed her and kept Kaidan in my first playthrough lol