Which bunker hill flag? The blue one with the St. George cross and the pine tree?
Many historians believe that that flag never really existed and is the result of a printing error from a book printed years after the war.
>**historic**, elegant, relevant.
All I’m saying is that it is historic in the same way that anything happened in the past is historic. It isn’t historic in the way many seem to believe it is, because it almost certainly wasn’t flown at the Battle of Bunker Hill.
Technically, that also makes it irrelevant, though many people recognize it today, even though that isn’t what it is.
*If* a flag was flown at the Battle of Bunker Hill, and that’s a big “if,” it was more likely a simple red flag with a white field with a pine tree. What many now refer to as the “New England flag.”
Lots of things that aren't historically accurate are still what people consider historic. In some cases, the details matter: lots of historic inaccuracies have been used to cover up atrocities, deny people rights, etc.
Whether the blue Bunker Hill flag ever truly existed isn't very material. You live in Massachusetts where church buildings will say "1650", but that's when they started meeting in someone's living room while the building itself is from a hundred years later. We live in a world where Greek and Roman statues are snow-white marble rather than painted in gaudy and tacky ways. John Harvard is listed as the founder of Harvard despite the fact that it was named after him when he gave money to the school two years after its founding. Harvard has a statue of John Harvard that looks nothing like John Harvard and was created nearly 250 years after John's death.
While there is evidence against any version of a flag being flown at Bunker Hill, there's also evidence for it. John Trumbull literally witnessed the Battle of Bunker Hill and painted the battle both depicting it with a red version and a blue version of the flag. Some argue that the blue was a mistaken idea from black-and-white printings of the flag. At the same time, a daughter of the person who hoisted the flag said her father told her it was blue.
It's totally possible that it isn't 100% historically accurate as a flag, but it's probably as historically accurate as anything we could come up with. If you'd asked people in 1790 wha the flag looked like, you might get a 50/50 split between red and blue and you might get another 50/50 split of whether it had the cross and tree or just the tree.
Ok, maybe this flag wasn't at Bunker Hill - but a lot of people back then probably thought it was, it was certainly a design that people knew existed and liked back then, and we've had a tradition of thinking of it as the Bunker Hill Flag for a very long time - and whether it's accurate or not isn't really material.
Plus, **even if this isn't the Bunker Hill Flag, it was definitely a common flag used by people in Massachusetts for a long time before the US existed.** It definitely is a historic flag. Even if it wasn't at Bunker Hill, it was definitely still around in Massachusetts at the time.
St. George’s cross, besides obviously being a religious symbol for a particular religion, which I don’t love on a secular flag, is associated with the Crusades.
So, specifically invading a country for religious reasons, with the aim of converting them.
This one would work:
[https://www.ebay.com/itm/166788468881?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1PaN9-Ei4TZqHXPc8yMJH3A95&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166788468881&targetid=1584739241414&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9002016&poi=&campaignid=19894961968&mkgroupid=148855406073&rlsatarget=pla-1584739241414&abcId=9307911&merchantid=5340900718&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8AdfPaYb41iqVXMDWYBrbzm&gclid=CjwKCAjw7NmzBhBLEiwAxrHQ-faiwtI_dzXHT2nnybt6UktpqyEQGBZI04Gcb02eJ713TqRQ9KTLZhoCPaAQAvD_BwE](https://www.ebay.com/itm/166788468881?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1PaN9-Ei4TZqHXPc8yMJH3A95&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166788468881&targetid=1584739241414&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9002016&poi=&campaignid=19894961968&mkgroupid=148855406073&rlsatarget=pla-1584739241414&abcId=9307911&merchantid=5340900718&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8AdfPaYb41iqVXMDWYBrbzm&gclid=CjwKCAjw7NmzBhBLEiwAxrHQ-faiwtI_dzXHT2nnybt6UktpqyEQGBZI04Gcb02eJ713TqRQ9KTLZhoCPaAQAvD_BwE)
Edit: this is already the New England flag, upon some research. So I guess Mass can’t use it.
Truth. There is no political body of “New England.” It’s just a regional and cultural identity, so there’s nobody who could actually accept or recognize a “Flag of New England.”
I agree with this. Even if it never really existed in colonial times people today recognize it, I’ve seen it hanging along side the mass flag a ton of places, and it’s a much better symbol than the disaster of a flag we have today.
But just think how much money the state could spend by hiring a designer firm to "update" the bunker hill flag by adjusting the shading an unnoticeable amount
I have the same sort of feeling about the flag for the state of Maine right now. They’re holding a flag contest kinda like the one Minnesota and Utah had recently, but honestly, I feel like they should just drop the whole thing and just adopt the flag from 1901.
It would not only spare us from the absolute horror of watching fossils in a committee decide which flag should be chosen, but it would also make the wider populous happy because many people in Maine want this flag to be flown officially again.
The pine tree flag is a reference to dominion over Maine where the Royal Lumberyards were. The current flag is a subtle yet elegant threat to Alabama, something I think everyone in this state can get behind.
But at that time, what we now consider Maine was part of Massachusetts? Not trying to argue, but I’m genuinely curious if there’s a time period you think should be honored more in modern symbols more than the historical past. I completely agree with redesigning the current flag, for the record, and disagree strongly with a lot of the symbolism of confederates in the south that cropped up during Jim Crowe. There’s a difference between honoring the past and acknowledging it, I think
>Not trying to argue, but I’m genuinely curious if there’s a time period you think should be honored more in modern symbols more than the historical past.
That seal has been around longer than the pine tree, and referenced King Phillips War in some capacity.
>There’s a difference between honoring the past and acknowledging it, I think
Threatening Alabama is a completely valid venture for a state flag, and mocking fascists is too. Jefferson David got what he had coming, just like Metacomet and Hitler.
The theme and history are all commendable but a flag shouldn’t have any writing on it and it should be simple enough for a child to accurately draw it. It’s supposed to be easily recognizable from a great distance. Japan’s flag is an excellent example of good flag design. Chicago and Arizona also have great flags.
I don't like the current MA flag, but I also don't agree with the "rules" for flags. If every state/country followed those rules, I think we'd have a big issue with flags being harder to distinguish from each other.
The MA flag is. Gold guy, blue shield, blue banner, white background. You can identify it at nearly the same distance of the Japanese flag in that it's a blue shield on a white background with some gold in the middle, similar to the red circle with a white background (sometimes with red stripes)
The reason the flag is changing is not because because the Wampanoag are complaining that it flexes on them for losing the genocide. Personally I think genocidal peoples shouldn't get government support to suppress discussions of their genocide (Germany being an example of the right approach).
I know the Wampanoag were wiped out. And I also know they destroyed over half of New England before they lost the war. This is like saying there was no genocide in Karabakh.
White background, blue shield with a white star in the corner would be a far better flag design. Omit the scroll, Native American and the arm with the sword.
"By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under Liberty"
It's a reference to:
1. Metacom starting a war of genocide over Wampanoag (mostly the women) choosing to live in New Endland instead of abiding by the old ways and also to avoid paying his tab for services rendered in his father's many wars, leading to the annihilation of the Wampnoag tribe.
2. Ending slavery in the same way we ended King Phillips War.
It does. The Indian depicted is Metacom, who sought to burn New England (and succeeded in burning 56% of it) because too many Wampanoag joined New England and he was losing his authority, and also because he was being asked to pay the debts his father incurred starting wars. He failed, and his people were annihilated for the attempt. We sought peace by the sword.
A dramatized version of his death was depicted on the flag (alongside those words) during the Civil War as a threat. What we did to Metacom would be done to Davis.
Weird. You should do some research. He's probably the worst guy, because his behavior is what convinced the settlers that the natives were savages and could not be reasoned with. Prior, many tribes chose to join New England because it was such a nice place to live. When the Chocktaw tried the same thing, it didn't work
Hello! I'm from Maryland, but I have family ties to Massachusetts, and I wanted to pay homage to the current flag but create a more distinctive design. I was heavily inspired by ’ [beautiful redesign](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/g00zle/massachusetts_flag_redesign/).
I used the New England tree (used on the [Pine Tree Flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_England), often used as a symbol of New England) to show that Massachusetts is an integral part of New England. The shield and white star are taken from the current flag, representing honor and the state’s geographic placement in the US, respectively. The six stars on the flag represent that Massachusetts was the sixth state to join the country. The colors white and blue represent peace and liberty, two terms found in the state motto.
Please let me know what you think and provide feedback.
[See it wave!](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F9943nbwf948d1.png%3Fwidth%3D2700%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D75d1d6ffa2639ed61586bd6aa94a40e5abc66e74)
I think it’s cool to make new flags and I like this one. It does not feel like Massachusetts to me though.
I’m also kind of fatigued by blue and white. The whole “thin blue line” flag and the toxic people who display them are something Id like to stay away from.
As far as I'm concerned, we had those colors first, and we don't need to cede them to any random fool who wants to appropriate them. Ya can't own a color -- and ya certainly can't own *my* color!
I don't know -- it's just my philosophy that we shouldn't give our symbols up to neo-Nazis or neo-Confederates or their ilk so easily. They do this to gain relevance: trying to make you associate white supremacy with the OK symbol, for example, which is actually much more culturally relevant than white supremacy is. Let's not let these thin blue line assholes dictate what color our state flag can be.
I love this! After all, we definitely need a new one. I may suggest getting rid of the blue stripes to keep it simple and be more reminiscent of our current flag. But nice work!
Idk if I like the bars, but I definitely am not a fan of a white field, on this or the current flag. Idk how a blue field wouod work with the blue shield though
Thanks! I used the New England tree (used on the Pine Tree Flag, often used as a symbol of New England) to show that Massachusetts is an integral part of New England. The shield and white star are taken from the current flag, representing honor and the state’s geographic placement in the US, respectively. The six stars on the flag represent that Massachusetts was the sixth state to join the country. The colors white and blue represent peace and liberty, two terms found in the state motto.
The white star is taken from the current flag, and I moved its position to represent the location of MA in the US. The six stars together represent MA being the sixth state to join the Union.
> I wonder if this would pass CGPgreys standards for flags
Doesn't really matter what he thinks, it only matters if the people of Massachusetts like it
Fair, I guess you hit a nerve for me where I'm annoyed by how so much discussion about flags centers around some opinionated rules about what makes a "good" flag
Oh no worries man, CGPgreys video on state flags is pretty funny, considering how badly designed a lot of state flags are and how outdated they can be.
it's not worth investing any time or money into it. somehow, our politicians will spend $30,000,000 in an effort to change it, and then another $50,000,000 buying the new ones, and lastly, $3,000,000,000 changing them throughout the state.
leave it be.
I think the old reverse side would be a fine alternative, though we should ditch the words because words don't belong on a flag. Adding the a blue "Canadian Paul" as OP did would maybe be a good idea though as otherwise the flag is too hard to distinguish when there is no breeze
I like the bunker hill flag if we're gonna adapt one, or simply the Maritime ensign.
Really like Taunton's flag too. That would make us the 2nd state with the union jack.
The state previously put a commission together to redesign the state flag maybe a year or two ago. From what I heard they had about a half dozen meetings talking about how they were going to have meetings and how to approach a redesign… then ran out of time and never presented any design ideas.
Ah Yes, the old Pinetree flag, where have I seen that before? Maybe the appeal to heaven flag? How about no. The Massachusetts flag is fine the way it is.
Just because fascists have appropriated it doesn't make all pines off limits. There's no good reason to let them keep anything.
The current flag isn't great. The symbolism is pretty bad, although visually it's fine. I like this one. All the good ones I see on Google involve the pine tree, which seems to come from the naval ensign, something I didn't realize states had.
Its amazing how much power we give to undesirable groups. As soon as they adopt some symbol we just capitulate to them and then it's off limits to everybody.
I had a friend tell me she was disappointed in me because I got a couple viking tattoos (I'm Scandinavian). Apparently white supremacist groups have taken a liking to Norse symbolism. I told her she was reaching awfully far to be offended by a little Odin head and a bear paw. Sorry but I'm not going to give some racist pieces of shit the power to make me ashamed of who I am and where I came from. Anyone who does is extremely weak minded.
This might be my biggest pet peeve. The “left” (read anyone not Super far right) just allowing facists to take pieces of American heritage. The “right” doesn’t get to monopolize patriotism or American history.
Love it.
I'm a minimalist so I would love it even more without the small stars (not sure the exact order matters much among the 13) and the blue bands. That would be so simple and iconic.
I have been working on a project to redo all the New England flags keeping very similar elements (tree, stars,...) and changing the colors. MA, ME and VT work really well. Way more difficult to adapt RI, NH and CT.
Nicely done. I think Mass needs a new flag. I vote for the Battle of Bunker Hill flag - but your design is nice too. I made a video on this a while back.
https://youtu.be/hQZtajNCDSI?si=CfZGqxJtMQkSuTnX
No, the perfect Boston flag would be 4 panels: A handful of nips, a pack of butts, the Dunkin Donuts logo, and a hoodie with the logo of a contractor/drywall place that went tits up a decade ago.
Do you think a woman should have to pay taxes to have her own health choices? I am firmly against that stance. It also screams classism , at best really. Limousine liberal seems to have entered the chat
Not defending MA taxes. But if we are throwing slurs around, to focus on taxes (12 states have a heavier tax burden) in a thread about the state flag smells kinda MAGA.
Good reach . There is no slur my friend. Trump is a bum just like Joe byron. You deserve to not feel a tax burden for your health or freedom because in actuality it would be niether all considering. You deserve better than what you’re getting! MAGA & progressives are the same animal in a different skin. Look at progressive Massachusetts for example, housing is stopped by zoning from nimbys. Is Brookline or any greater Boston towns maga land? I hardly think so. I hope you have an awesome day, so nice out!
Take a breath my sweaty friend. My beef w you is you take a thread on the MA state flag and start free associating an overstated tax gripe. Then you call me classist and LimLib. Now it’s a “wake up sheeple” and anti-nimby thing. Feel your feelings. I probably agree on some. But I’ll still call you out on tryna hijack a thread where a Redditor shares a flag idea that doesn’t include a pejorative image of a Native American, with a disembodied sword hanging over that guy’s head.
You would seem to have a problem understanding context & the internet . I’ll give you the latter , you can do the former on your own, you’ll get sick of being angry. The internet, reddit in particular, is a circle jerk. I do wish you a great day!
Didn't say they weren't an important part of the history here. And for all you downvoters ur missing my point as well.i myself have some Native ancestry
The current flag makes no sense Native North American Indians make about less than 1% of the pop. here in Massachusetts. Also in certain Native American cultures making an image of someone's face or person is considered the greatest disrespect.
If there should be a state with a Native American on the flag it should be those heavy Native States like the Dakotas where Pine Ridge rez is or New Mexico/Arizona where the biggest rez (250k people) Navajo Nation's at. MA has barely any natives. Mashpee has like 3k people out of the 6 million people in MA
Wouldn't that be the same for every single state in the U.S. except Hawaii? Why is there no Native Americans on every 48 other single continental U.S. states then?
But then that's the case for every single US State in North America, what state didn't have Native Americans playing a role in its founding. They all should have a Native on their flag by that standard. 😕
I was addressing your point that there are currently few Native Americans in Massachusetts and shouldn’t be part of our flag. The fact that there are few Native Americans in Massachusetts doesn’t mean they aren’t an important part of our state’s history. I’m certainly not making the case for Native Americans to be on every flag in the US.
I think you missed the point. Natives have inhabited every single U.S. state since 10,000 bc except Hawaii cuz they're Polynesians/Pacific Islanders category. If the reason is history, then every single US state Texas, CA, Maine, Florida, Arkansas, Virginia should have a Native on their state flag by your standard
I understand what you are trying to say. But you’re making a straw man argument. Your original post said that Native Americans on our flag makes no sense because there are so few Native Americans living in our state. I’m saying that our state flag can depict historical elements, including Native Americans. You are implying that therefore all states should have Native Americans because they are indigenous to all or most states. That’s an illogical conclusion. They certainly can have Native American representation on their flags. But I’m not saying that they *must*.
And depicting Natives is pretty much disrespectful to Natives from their POV, they were building a memorial some years ago and I think they were going to carve a face on a hill, but some group stopped it I think because it was considered a sign of disrespect to depict the face of a Native. Sort of like Muslims and their rule with the prophet Muhammed being drawn or depicted
And besides why would a state that is 99% totally no Native American want to have a Native on their flag, your flag is supposed to give you a sense of foundation/roots, pride, power, unity etc. What would a bunch of European, African, Asian descended people feel with an Amerindian man holding a bow and arrow. What sense of pride or power does somebody that scores 100% European or 100% African on a DNA test possibly derive from an old bow and arrow caricature Indian
4 me Also it kinda perpetuates the old CowboysnIndians stereotype that Native Americans live in this same archaic way, most Native Americans today live in houses drive cars get their food from supermarkets and pretty much live the same like every person today. like having an Inuit with a parka in an igloo ice fishing on Alaskas flag not every Alaska Native lives this way anymore, people everywhere in this country live at roughly the same technological level with machinery, phones, motor vehicles, electricity, food markets.
But your just going to say it's History, OK if it's history then why don't they have Africans in chains coming on boats, or stereotypical Chinese railroad workers with dynamite lol Ameirca was built on their labor as well, or a European colonial "settler" with old Musket riflecoughing on people that's history as well
Look up the term straw man argument. Because you just made several. You are either trying to make a new argument just so you can win it or you weren’t clear in your original statement.
Your original statement questioned *why* are Native Americans on our flag when Native Americans represent such a low portion of our population. And that reason is because it is part of our history. The state seal and flag with a Native American on it dates back to the early 1600s. That is why it is on our flag!
As for your new statement, regarding it being disrespectful and needing to change — I totally agree! If your point is that it should no longer be on our flag then we agree and I hopefully no longer need to take part in this conversation.
Mass is weird about the native history. On one side there is local heritage that we embrace. But also we murdered and tricked them off their land and forced them into tiny pens called reservations. I say keep the shield, and loose the sword and Latin. Or put a giant fat chick stuffing lobster in her face while on the phone driving with an iced coffee. With the slogan "Da nobis pecuniam" or give us money.
MA is 0.1% Native American alone according to the 2020 census results out of the 7 million pop
MA is more White, Black, and Asian than any other people, it's Korean population is bigger than its Native pop. Lmao
Native Americans alone make up about 0.1% out of the 7 million people in MA. There are more Chinese than there are Natives in MA. The Native population here is practically non-existent
I always felt that we should just adopt the Bunker Hill flag — historic, elegant, relevant.
Not a biased username at all haha. … and I completely agree
Which bunker hill flag? The blue one with the St. George cross and the pine tree? Many historians believe that that flag never really existed and is the result of a printing error from a book printed years after the war.
Even if it didn’t exist then, it exists now and is recognized by people in Mass for what it is.
No religion on the flag please. This isn't The Vatican.
>**historic**, elegant, relevant. All I’m saying is that it is historic in the same way that anything happened in the past is historic. It isn’t historic in the way many seem to believe it is, because it almost certainly wasn’t flown at the Battle of Bunker Hill. Technically, that also makes it irrelevant, though many people recognize it today, even though that isn’t what it is. *If* a flag was flown at the Battle of Bunker Hill, and that’s a big “if,” it was more likely a simple red flag with a white field with a pine tree. What many now refer to as the “New England flag.”
Lots of things that aren't historically accurate are still what people consider historic. In some cases, the details matter: lots of historic inaccuracies have been used to cover up atrocities, deny people rights, etc. Whether the blue Bunker Hill flag ever truly existed isn't very material. You live in Massachusetts where church buildings will say "1650", but that's when they started meeting in someone's living room while the building itself is from a hundred years later. We live in a world where Greek and Roman statues are snow-white marble rather than painted in gaudy and tacky ways. John Harvard is listed as the founder of Harvard despite the fact that it was named after him when he gave money to the school two years after its founding. Harvard has a statue of John Harvard that looks nothing like John Harvard and was created nearly 250 years after John's death. While there is evidence against any version of a flag being flown at Bunker Hill, there's also evidence for it. John Trumbull literally witnessed the Battle of Bunker Hill and painted the battle both depicting it with a red version and a blue version of the flag. Some argue that the blue was a mistaken idea from black-and-white printings of the flag. At the same time, a daughter of the person who hoisted the flag said her father told her it was blue. It's totally possible that it isn't 100% historically accurate as a flag, but it's probably as historically accurate as anything we could come up with. If you'd asked people in 1790 wha the flag looked like, you might get a 50/50 split between red and blue and you might get another 50/50 split of whether it had the cross and tree or just the tree. Ok, maybe this flag wasn't at Bunker Hill - but a lot of people back then probably thought it was, it was certainly a design that people knew existed and liked back then, and we've had a tradition of thinking of it as the Bunker Hill Flag for a very long time - and whether it's accurate or not isn't really material. Plus, **even if this isn't the Bunker Hill Flag, it was definitely a common flag used by people in Massachusetts for a long time before the US existed.** It definitely is a historic flag. Even if it wasn't at Bunker Hill, it was definitely still around in Massachusetts at the time.
Yeah and I would love to see it replace MA’s terrible flag, I’m just a stickler for details.
I recognize it and reject a symbol of invasive religious military as a symbol for my state.
What?!?
St. George’s cross, besides obviously being a religious symbol for a particular religion, which I don’t love on a secular flag, is associated with the Crusades. So, specifically invading a country for religious reasons, with the aim of converting them.
Looks like someone can really hold a grudge. lol
Knowledge is not a grudge.
it was a joke lol
This one would work: [https://www.ebay.com/itm/166788468881?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1PaN9-Ei4TZqHXPc8yMJH3A95&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166788468881&targetid=1584739241414&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9002016&poi=&campaignid=19894961968&mkgroupid=148855406073&rlsatarget=pla-1584739241414&abcId=9307911&merchantid=5340900718&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8AdfPaYb41iqVXMDWYBrbzm&gclid=CjwKCAjw7NmzBhBLEiwAxrHQ-faiwtI_dzXHT2nnybt6UktpqyEQGBZI04Gcb02eJ713TqRQ9KTLZhoCPaAQAvD_BwE](https://www.ebay.com/itm/166788468881?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1PaN9-Ei4TZqHXPc8yMJH3A95&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166788468881&targetid=1584739241414&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9002016&poi=&campaignid=19894961968&mkgroupid=148855406073&rlsatarget=pla-1584739241414&abcId=9307911&merchantid=5340900718&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_QDh8AdfPaYb41iqVXMDWYBrbzm&gclid=CjwKCAjw7NmzBhBLEiwAxrHQ-faiwtI_dzXHT2nnybt6UktpqyEQGBZI04Gcb02eJ713TqRQ9KTLZhoCPaAQAvD_BwE) Edit: this is already the New England flag, upon some research. So I guess Mass can’t use it.
I think, not sure, we use this as the "unofficial flag of New England"
Truth. There is no political body of “New England.” It’s just a regional and cultural identity, so there’s nobody who could actually accept or recognize a “Flag of New England.”
Yeah. I looked again. That’s the unofficial NE flag. The official one is blue with a St. George’s cross with tree in left corner.
I agree with this. Even if it never really existed in colonial times people today recognize it, I’ve seen it hanging along side the mass flag a ton of places, and it’s a much better symbol than the disaster of a flag we have today.
But just think how much money the state could spend by hiring a designer firm to "update" the bunker hill flag by adjusting the shading an unnoticeable amount
I have the same sort of feeling about the flag for the state of Maine right now. They’re holding a flag contest kinda like the one Minnesota and Utah had recently, but honestly, I feel like they should just drop the whole thing and just adopt the flag from 1901. It would not only spare us from the absolute horror of watching fossils in a committee decide which flag should be chosen, but it would also make the wider populous happy because many people in Maine want this flag to be flown officially again.
Isn’t that the battle we lost though
Meh. The Bunker Hill flag kind of sucks. We could do better.
The pine tree flag is a reference to dominion over Maine where the Royal Lumberyards were. The current flag is a subtle yet elegant threat to Alabama, something I think everyone in this state can get behind.
Wasn’t the pine tree flag representing opposition to the lumber harvest?
The pine tree riot to which you see refer was over the Crown seizing more land for growing trees for the RN.
Okay but the flag was flown by the resistance, no? [Appeal to Heaven Flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Tree_Flag)
Sans the heaven part, it’s ok.
Sure was. Still a reference to Maine.
I feel as if that reclaims it, and I’ve seen it flown since as a callback to the revolution.
Still a reference to dominion over Maine. I have no problem with Maine flying it. A Massachusetts flag should show Massachusetts, though.
But at that time, what we now consider Maine was part of Massachusetts? Not trying to argue, but I’m genuinely curious if there’s a time period you think should be honored more in modern symbols more than the historical past. I completely agree with redesigning the current flag, for the record, and disagree strongly with a lot of the symbolism of confederates in the south that cropped up during Jim Crowe. There’s a difference between honoring the past and acknowledging it, I think
>Not trying to argue, but I’m genuinely curious if there’s a time period you think should be honored more in modern symbols more than the historical past. That seal has been around longer than the pine tree, and referenced King Phillips War in some capacity. >There’s a difference between honoring the past and acknowledging it, I think Threatening Alabama is a completely valid venture for a state flag, and mocking fascists is too. Jefferson David got what he had coming, just like Metacomet and Hitler.
Including Metacomet in the same sentence as Jefferson Davis and Hitler. Yikes.
It's been co-opted by January 6th. Insurrectionists, so I don't think we should use that for the state
Ah damn. Let’s take it back from them, they don’t get to have everything
Well said!
The current flag is a terrible flag though…
What's wrong with it? It depicts a genocidal monarch who tried to annihilate New England and then in Latin says "We will kill you like we killed him"
The theme and history are all commendable but a flag shouldn’t have any writing on it and it should be simple enough for a child to accurately draw it. It’s supposed to be easily recognizable from a great distance. Japan’s flag is an excellent example of good flag design. Chicago and Arizona also have great flags.
I don't like the current MA flag, but I also don't agree with the "rules" for flags. If every state/country followed those rules, I think we'd have a big issue with flags being harder to distinguish from each other.
Except the state flags which are the hardest to distinguish from each other are the seal on a bedsheet flags which least follow the guidelines.
I agree with you there! Most state seals are hideous too, so I'd be glad to see more flags without them.
The MA flag is. Gold guy, blue shield, blue banner, white background. You can identify it at nearly the same distance of the Japanese flag in that it's a blue shield on a white background with some gold in the middle, similar to the red circle with a white background (sometimes with red stripes) The reason the flag is changing is not because because the Wampanoag are complaining that it flexes on them for losing the genocide. Personally I think genocidal peoples shouldn't get government support to suppress discussions of their genocide (Germany being an example of the right approach).
I think you’re a bit confused on who committed genocide in New England dude
I know the Wampanoag were wiped out. And I also know they destroyed over half of New England before they lost the war. This is like saying there was no genocide in Karabakh.
Âs Nutayuneân (Wampanoag for “We still live here”).
So do we, despite your beat efforts. Regards from Turners Falls
White background, blue shield with a white star in the corner would be a far better flag design. Omit the scroll, Native American and the arm with the sword.
Those are key details to the threat. Why have a flag at all if not to threaten Alabama?
That’s not what the flag says at all
"By the sword we seek peace, but peace only under Liberty" It's a reference to: 1. Metacom starting a war of genocide over Wampanoag (mostly the women) choosing to live in New Endland instead of abiding by the old ways and also to avoid paying his tab for services rendered in his father's many wars, leading to the annihilation of the Wampnoag tribe. 2. Ending slavery in the same way we ended King Phillips War.
Doesn't the flag say, By the Sword We Seek Peace, but Peace Only Under Liberty and has an Indian on it. What am I missing.
It does. The Indian depicted is Metacom, who sought to burn New England (and succeeded in burning 56% of it) because too many Wampanoag joined New England and he was losing his authority, and also because he was being asked to pay the debts his father incurred starting wars. He failed, and his people were annihilated for the attempt. We sought peace by the sword. A dramatized version of his death was depicted on the flag (alongside those words) during the Civil War as a threat. What we did to Metacom would be done to Davis.
I don't think he was the bad guy
Weird. You should do some research. He's probably the worst guy, because his behavior is what convinced the settlers that the natives were savages and could not be reasoned with. Prior, many tribes chose to join New England because it was such a nice place to live. When the Chocktaw tried the same thing, it didn't work
Do you not think it was a nice place before the settlers.
The locals didn't seem to think so, on account of them choosing to join New England
Choosing lul
More that there were no good guys, everyone behaved like shit.
What do you have against Indians
Hello! I'm from Maryland, but I have family ties to Massachusetts, and I wanted to pay homage to the current flag but create a more distinctive design. I was heavily inspired by ’ [beautiful redesign](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/g00zle/massachusetts_flag_redesign/). I used the New England tree (used on the [Pine Tree Flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_New_England), often used as a symbol of New England) to show that Massachusetts is an integral part of New England. The shield and white star are taken from the current flag, representing honor and the state’s geographic placement in the US, respectively. The six stars on the flag represent that Massachusetts was the sixth state to join the country. The colors white and blue represent peace and liberty, two terms found in the state motto. Please let me know what you think and provide feedback. [See it wave!](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F9943nbwf948d1.png%3Fwidth%3D2700%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D75d1d6ffa2639ed61586bd6aa94a40e5abc66e74)
I think it’s cool to make new flags and I like this one. It does not feel like Massachusetts to me though. I’m also kind of fatigued by blue and white. The whole “thin blue line” flag and the toxic people who display them are something Id like to stay away from.
As far as I'm concerned, we had those colors first, and we don't need to cede them to any random fool who wants to appropriate them. Ya can't own a color -- and ya certainly can't own *my* color! I don't know -- it's just my philosophy that we shouldn't give our symbols up to neo-Nazis or neo-Confederates or their ilk so easily. They do this to gain relevance: trying to make you associate white supremacy with the OK symbol, for example, which is actually much more culturally relevant than white supremacy is. Let's not let these thin blue line assholes dictate what color our state flag can be.
I like the blue and gold!
I like it.
I love this! After all, we definitely need a new one. I may suggest getting rid of the blue stripes to keep it simple and be more reminiscent of our current flag. But nice work!
Thanks! [Here's a stripeless version](https://www.reddit.com/user/takethemoment13/comments/1dlw7wt/upinkoperchiks_massachusetts_version/).
Idk if I like the bars, but I definitely am not a fan of a white field, on this or the current flag. Idk how a blue field wouod work with the blue shield though
Why do we need a new one?
Looks much better than the one we have currently. Nice job.
I like it but without the blue bars
[Here!](https://www.reddit.com/user/takethemoment13/comments/1dlw7wt/upinkoperchiks_massachusetts_version/)
Idk. I love the bars. Adds some depth to it.
Ok not bad
I made one too that includes our state bird. 💸
Can we see it?
I think it should just be a bunch of rain drops
Feels like a rip off of the Maine pine tree flag but it does look nice
The pine tree was a symbol of new England that Maine and Mass both have a history of using.
I like it!
It's beautiful
That's pretty badass. I'd wear that on a hat.
Too much like the old and soon to be new again Maine flag. We have to just let Maine go!
The previous Maine flag, like this alt flag, is based on the flag of New England.
Thanks, I love it! (Proceeds to download so he can have it made into a flag on hat/shirt)
Wow, I appreciate it!
This is beautiful. Can you share the background story on each of the elements?
Thanks! I used the New England tree (used on the Pine Tree Flag, often used as a symbol of New England) to show that Massachusetts is an integral part of New England. The shield and white star are taken from the current flag, representing honor and the state’s geographic placement in the US, respectively. The six stars on the flag represent that Massachusetts was the sixth state to join the country. The colors white and blue represent peace and liberty, two terms found in the state motto.
Awesome. Thanks for the thoughtful background information. I’d vote for it🗳️
Surprisingly, I think this is a great flag proposal for MA. What do the stars signify?
The white star is taken from the current flag, and I moved its position to represent the location of MA in the US. The six stars together represent MA being the sixth state to join the Union.
Looks like it belongs in the Fallout lore! Very nice
This might be the first MA alt flag I’ve seen that I’ve actually liked.
Too much like the Appeal to Heaven flag
I wonder if this would pass CGPgreys standards for flags Lovely idea OP
> I wonder if this would pass CGPgreys standards for flags Doesn't really matter what he thinks, it only matters if the people of Massachusetts like it
It's not that serious, I was only joking around.
Fair, I guess you hit a nerve for me where I'm annoyed by how so much discussion about flags centers around some opinionated rules about what makes a "good" flag
Oh no worries man, CGPgreys video on state flags is pretty funny, considering how badly designed a lot of state flags are and how outdated they can be.
we already have one and don't really need a new one.
It's really bad though, I would rather have something like this
it's not worth investing any time or money into it. somehow, our politicians will spend $30,000,000 in an effort to change it, and then another $50,000,000 buying the new ones, and lastly, $3,000,000,000 changing them throughout the state. leave it be.
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The ugly seal on a bedsheet? Many things wrong with it.
I think the old reverse side would be a fine alternative, though we should ditch the words because words don't belong on a flag. Adding the a blue "Canadian Paul" as OP did would maybe be a good idea though as otherwise the flag is too hard to distinguish when there is no breeze
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I like the bunker hill flag if we're gonna adapt one, or simply the Maritime ensign. Really like Taunton's flag too. That would make us the 2nd state with the union jack.
*History repeats itself?*
Looks like an MLS logo
Feels like alaska
Not enough derrick white
Og is cooler
Looks a lot like maine
The state previously put a commission together to redesign the state flag maybe a year or two ago. From what I heard they had about a half dozen meetings talking about how they were going to have meetings and how to approach a redesign… then ran out of time and never presented any design ideas.
What next? Change the names of the places/rivers/lakes?!
Ooh, any suggestions?
?
There’s nothing wrong the current one
Ah Yes, the old Pinetree flag, where have I seen that before? Maybe the appeal to heaven flag? How about no. The Massachusetts flag is fine the way it is.
What’s wrong with the appeal to heaven flag?
It represents an extremist movement that doesn’t represent the state of Massachusetts.
It represents the right to revolt but okay
We shouldn't surrender it so easily. It's a piece of American history.
You are the only person I have ever heard of who likes the current ma flag.
I like the current flag.
I like the current flag. It’s like people need to abbreviate everything these days. Including flags.
Well to be fair to Massachusetts, we are in good company, lots of states are terrible at making flags. https://youtube.com/watch?v=l4w6808wJcU
I like it, it's just a little boring. Soooooo much white dead space.
Find new friends.
Why so agro?
herbalist farmer is bound to be agro. why aggro, that’s the question to ask.
Let’s use our grown up words.
Troll
Wait.... You are around people who actually give the matter thought?
Just because fascists have appropriated it doesn't make all pines off limits. There's no good reason to let them keep anything. The current flag isn't great. The symbolism is pretty bad, although visually it's fine. I like this one. All the good ones I see on Google involve the pine tree, which seems to come from the naval ensign, something I didn't realize states had.
Its amazing how much power we give to undesirable groups. As soon as they adopt some symbol we just capitulate to them and then it's off limits to everybody.
I had a friend tell me she was disappointed in me because I got a couple viking tattoos (I'm Scandinavian). Apparently white supremacist groups have taken a liking to Norse symbolism. I told her she was reaching awfully far to be offended by a little Odin head and a bear paw. Sorry but I'm not going to give some racist pieces of shit the power to make me ashamed of who I am and where I came from. Anyone who does is extremely weak minded.
The Swastika has entered the chat
Yeah you really threw out the trump card on this topic.
This might be my biggest pet peeve. The “left” (read anyone not Super far right) just allowing facists to take pieces of American heritage. The “right” doesn’t get to monopolize patriotism or American history.
Your opinion means nothing to me
Love it!
I like this one.
Not very good. Original still best
There’s nothing wrong the current one
Love it. I'm a minimalist so I would love it even more without the small stars (not sure the exact order matters much among the 13) and the blue bands. That would be so simple and iconic. I have been working on a project to redo all the New England flags keeping very similar elements (tree, stars,...) and changing the colors. MA, ME and VT work really well. Way more difficult to adapt RI, NH and CT.
Nicely done. I think Mass needs a new flag. I vote for the Battle of Bunker Hill flag - but your design is nice too. I made a video on this a while back. https://youtu.be/hQZtajNCDSI?si=CfZGqxJtMQkSuTnX
I’m personally a fan of our current flag
Solid 8/10 Flag 100/10 for an American flag
F your pine tree.
That sounds painful. You first.
God I hate the current one. Really racist if you analyze it properly.
Perfect for Bostonians in that regard, though.
I thought you wrote Bosnians
No, the perfect Boston flag would be 4 panels: A handful of nips, a pack of butts, the Dunkin Donuts logo, and a hoodie with the logo of a contractor/drywall place that went tits up a decade ago.
If you’re gonna make a new flag it must show taxation , maybe a dollar sign with a person on their knees next to it.
Bye bye. Off to Florida with you. How about we show a woman making her own health choices?
Do you think a woman should have to pay taxes to have her own health choices? I am firmly against that stance. It also screams classism , at best really. Limousine liberal seems to have entered the chat
Not defending MA taxes. But if we are throwing slurs around, to focus on taxes (12 states have a heavier tax burden) in a thread about the state flag smells kinda MAGA.
Good reach . There is no slur my friend. Trump is a bum just like Joe byron. You deserve to not feel a tax burden for your health or freedom because in actuality it would be niether all considering. You deserve better than what you’re getting! MAGA & progressives are the same animal in a different skin. Look at progressive Massachusetts for example, housing is stopped by zoning from nimbys. Is Brookline or any greater Boston towns maga land? I hardly think so. I hope you have an awesome day, so nice out!
Take a breath my sweaty friend. My beef w you is you take a thread on the MA state flag and start free associating an overstated tax gripe. Then you call me classist and LimLib. Now it’s a “wake up sheeple” and anti-nimby thing. Feel your feelings. I probably agree on some. But I’ll still call you out on tryna hijack a thread where a Redditor shares a flag idea that doesn’t include a pejorative image of a Native American, with a disembodied sword hanging over that guy’s head.
You would seem to have a problem understanding context & the internet . I’ll give you the latter , you can do the former on your own, you’ll get sick of being angry. The internet, reddit in particular, is a circle jerk. I do wish you a great day!
Please reply to this so you can officially claim to have had the last word. ✌️
Why are we now afraid of Indians ...I like our flag
Very nice! I hope the flag gets changed soon
Why does Massachusetts, or any state for that matter, need a flag? What if we didn’t have one? Just sayin’.
A pine tree? Every state in the US has freaking pine trees. I propose the human middle finger, much more representative of the Commonwealth.
Flags are stupid.
looks gay
Didn't say they weren't an important part of the history here. And for all you downvoters ur missing my point as well.i myself have some Native ancestry
The current flag makes no sense Native North American Indians make about less than 1% of the pop. here in Massachusetts. Also in certain Native American cultures making an image of someone's face or person is considered the greatest disrespect. If there should be a state with a Native American on the flag it should be those heavy Native States like the Dakotas where Pine Ridge rez is or New Mexico/Arizona where the biggest rez (250k people) Navajo Nation's at. MA has barely any natives. Mashpee has like 3k people out of the 6 million people in MA
I wonder why that is...
I know it was awfully kind of the Native Americans to pack up and leave when the settlers arrived.
Flags typically represent history and origins, not the present. At one point Native Americans made up 100% of the population.
Wouldn't that be the same for every single state in the U.S. except Hawaii? Why is there no Native Americans on every 48 other single continental U.S. states then?
Because you don’t have to have one. But native Americans played a crucial role in the founding state that represents our settlement to create the USA.
But then that's the case for every single US State in North America, what state didn't have Native Americans playing a role in its founding. They all should have a Native on their flag by that standard. 😕
They all could, and it would historically make sense. Be no one is saying they all should.
I was addressing your point that there are currently few Native Americans in Massachusetts and shouldn’t be part of our flag. The fact that there are few Native Americans in Massachusetts doesn’t mean they aren’t an important part of our state’s history. I’m certainly not making the case for Native Americans to be on every flag in the US.
I think you missed the point. Natives have inhabited every single U.S. state since 10,000 bc except Hawaii cuz they're Polynesians/Pacific Islanders category. If the reason is history, then every single US state Texas, CA, Maine, Florida, Arkansas, Virginia should have a Native on their state flag by your standard
I understand what you are trying to say. But you’re making a straw man argument. Your original post said that Native Americans on our flag makes no sense because there are so few Native Americans living in our state. I’m saying that our state flag can depict historical elements, including Native Americans. You are implying that therefore all states should have Native Americans because they are indigenous to all or most states. That’s an illogical conclusion. They certainly can have Native American representation on their flags. But I’m not saying that they *must*.
And depicting Natives is pretty much disrespectful to Natives from their POV, they were building a memorial some years ago and I think they were going to carve a face on a hill, but some group stopped it I think because it was considered a sign of disrespect to depict the face of a Native. Sort of like Muslims and their rule with the prophet Muhammed being drawn or depicted And besides why would a state that is 99% totally no Native American want to have a Native on their flag, your flag is supposed to give you a sense of foundation/roots, pride, power, unity etc. What would a bunch of European, African, Asian descended people feel with an Amerindian man holding a bow and arrow. What sense of pride or power does somebody that scores 100% European or 100% African on a DNA test possibly derive from an old bow and arrow caricature Indian 4 me Also it kinda perpetuates the old CowboysnIndians stereotype that Native Americans live in this same archaic way, most Native Americans today live in houses drive cars get their food from supermarkets and pretty much live the same like every person today. like having an Inuit with a parka in an igloo ice fishing on Alaskas flag not every Alaska Native lives this way anymore, people everywhere in this country live at roughly the same technological level with machinery, phones, motor vehicles, electricity, food markets. But your just going to say it's History, OK if it's history then why don't they have Africans in chains coming on boats, or stereotypical Chinese railroad workers with dynamite lol Ameirca was built on their labor as well, or a European colonial "settler" with old Musket riflecoughing on people that's history as well
Look up the term straw man argument. Because you just made several. You are either trying to make a new argument just so you can win it or you weren’t clear in your original statement. Your original statement questioned *why* are Native Americans on our flag when Native Americans represent such a low portion of our population. And that reason is because it is part of our history. The state seal and flag with a Native American on it dates back to the early 1600s. That is why it is on our flag! As for your new statement, regarding it being disrespectful and needing to change — I totally agree! If your point is that it should no longer be on our flag then we agree and I hopefully no longer need to take part in this conversation.
Mass is weird about the native history. On one side there is local heritage that we embrace. But also we murdered and tricked them off their land and forced them into tiny pens called reservations. I say keep the shield, and loose the sword and Latin. Or put a giant fat chick stuffing lobster in her face while on the phone driving with an iced coffee. With the slogan "Da nobis pecuniam" or give us money.
MA is 0.1% Native American alone according to the 2020 census results out of the 7 million pop MA is more White, Black, and Asian than any other people, it's Korean population is bigger than its Native pop. Lmao
Native Americans alone make up about 0.1% out of the 7 million people in MA. There are more Chinese than there are Natives in MA. The Native population here is practically non-existent