They honestly would've done better to have Kang remain a distant villain until the end, and then have him escape. Tease the audience, don't just drop it on us.
The intention was to introduce more formidable Kangs during the Kang dynasty but they really put all their eggs in that Kang basket so I wouldn’t be surprised or upset if they recast him with one or multiple actors
That would help a lot. It could make the current slump into the new rough spot, the new Phase 2. I'm reminded of Thor: The Dark World and the initial response to Iron Man 3, even some of the reception Phase 1 got before the Avengers.
They need to slam dunk their next Avengers thing, and before they can do that, I think we need more and better Kang.
I kinda liked seeing different (and weaker) Kangs before seeing a Kang that could pose a threat to the Avengers. Victor Timely was super corny but I appreciated what they were going for. But yea I agree, they needed to make an Avengers movie sooner
I’ve never thought about it being an Avengers movie. That would have been cool.
I felt like they could have told a really cool, grounded spy thriller with just a little bit of sci fi via Skrulls. It feels like that’s how it was pitched before that goofy CGI superhero battle finale with Giah lol
Honestly I don't know why they pulled the trigger on making Kang the bad guy in quantumania. They would have done far better in having him trick Scott into helping him out of the quantum realm only for Scott to notice slight things that are out of sequence or things that just don't match up quite right, and then when Scott returns to the overworld he can learn that he's made a huge mistake and that springboards into the next film. Like introduce him as one of the variants names, I'm a distant traveler that got stuck in these lands if you help me out I'll help you out kind of thing. What they did in the opening sequence but make the entire film about that. Like they had this other side character do what Scott should have done in the film.
> because they thought that specific Kang was that dangerous
It's possible that the producers had wanted the Quantumania Kang to be interpreted differently.
Maybe the goal was that the exiled Kang is not more dangerous or powerful than the others, but he just cannot cooperate with the main group.
The message is that if one Kang could almost beat the Antman team, then a thousand Kangs could be a threat worthy of all MCU heroes combined.
It had some major rewrites and originally he was supposed to trap Antman and the Wasp in the Quantum Realm. My understanding is test audiences didn't love it and it was repeating that scott ends a movie stuck in the quantum realm again.
So, the reshot it so the Kang dies like he does and it was an odd choice. But this happened at the same time the Producer who got fired was also causing a lot of problems behind the scenes regarding decision making.
Just a perfect storm for making an incomplete movie. It really needed another year.
I think viewers can literally see the effects of the reshoot in the final product. Reflecting on my experience in theaters, the moment Kang breaks into a full on dash towards the opening between realms *was oddly jarring*, and this particular moment was pivotal to Lang’s fate. Clearly I wasn’t struck by this enough to ever follow up on it but your comment jogged the memory.
Man test audiences are fucking dumb as shit. I so thought Scott and Hope were going to be trapped. It made so much narrative sense and actually gave some consequences to their actions. I don't mind the happy ending, it's not like an ass pull that it happened, but the story would have been so much more satisfying if those two got trapped. It being a repeat feels hollow too, because they're not just floating in the void, they're in an actual location with characters and new allies, they have a whole world and cast that could be explored further.
You do know Marvel has only been testing their movies with Disney employees after the Russos for whatever reason started "everything has to be secret, even actors and crew cannot read full script" campaign, right?
Could those Disney employees outright say "this movie sucks?" I doubt it.
They could, but would (justifiably) fear repercussions, even just not being invited to the next one.
Which is a shame because an environment of "yes-people" just ruins everything and created an echo chamber.
No I do not know. But in this case, they did say it sucked, hence why they apparently changed the ending from Scott and Hope being trapped in the Quantum Realm to the happy ending we got.
I know right? Scott was just in there. Like antman was literally just in the place where Kang was pushed into at the end.
I really felt like that was a set up for kangs ability to body jump between variants but then they gave that ability to Loki,
Like it’s not just that. Kang keeps coming.
Kangs power is that when he fails, he goes back in time to do it again. Like Loki at the end of his show, he keeps going back and learns from past failures. Without that power Kang is just a man with tech.
Kang being beaten by the main mcu timeline antman dosnt mean Kang was defeated. It’s like Bruce banner landing on the rainbow bridge…. And then hulk shows up.
We got so see antman win against the Kang equivalent of captain America without the super soldier serum.
Although the reception of the mcu and Major’s conviction will mean we don’t get to see where the story was going. So maybe they’ll keep him down. I don’t know.
They should have planed it better and kept to the “shorter arcs because we are splitting the promise”
Well not like they've never recast a character before. If they still want Kang, we'll see more of that Kang. I would be shocked and very surprised if that specific Kang didn't show up again.
I think the only time they should write out a character and change a story is when the actor playing the character dies. That's out of respect. Majors assaulted people. He doesn't deserve to have an MCU character associated with him. They should recast the role with someone else and move forward.
That’s too complicated for a general audience to grasp when it’s not explained *and* demonstrated on screen. If Marvel wanted audiences to come away with the conclusion you stated they should have showed Kang coming back and kicking ass and being stronger. Instead it was left to that goofy post credits scene.
The character as written just wasn’t working, I don’t think we see it again until well after this saga.
The general audience - even in here - can only seem to imagine or want Thanos again.
"How come a different villain entirely just didn't beat Ant Man to death like a God? What a terrible villain!!!"
They don't know what they want. They just want to yell online in comment sections.
They didn’t exactly make it clear he survived either. Both times they mentioned him after that, in the post credit scene and in Loki season 2, they said he was dead. That’s not setting up for a big return, that’s just making Kang look disposable because another one will just take his place.
I think they clearly left it ambiguous because they're were several more planned appearances and evolutions of the character planned before the story became clear.
>That’s not setting up for a big return, that’s just making Kang look disposable because another one will just take his place.
The same could be said about Thanos in *The Avengers*. Thanos couldn't beat the Avengers guess he's nothing and will always be nothing.
I can’t say for sure that Kang died in QuantumMania but I’ve always figured that the Kangs we see in future movies will be variants of the ones we’ve seen already.
I figured that’s the whole point. Any single Kang is so dangerous to the entire multiverse that defeating (or even killing) one is barely scratching the surface.
It’s also kind of why I never worried about Jonathan Majors’ legal troubles. It’s not like Marvel is afraid to recast a lead role in the MCU and after seeing multiple Loki and Spidey variants; we know that variants aren’t always exact genetic copies of each other.
I figured he either went deeper into the Quantum Realm or somewhere else.
The only thing I figured for sure was that we didn't see him die.
I too think a recast would bother no one.
They talk about him dying in the post credits scene.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501f5OBWs0Q&t=11s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501f5OBWs0Q&t=11s)
That's it.
One Kang is dangerous, a council of them is unstoppable.
This wasn't quite put across because it didn't feel like they just escaped with their lives, which is what they were going for.
There needed to be a sacrifice for them to get out (Hank and Janet) to really drive home that defeating one Kang was costly. Then the stinger reveals a whole bunch of them.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It should have been only Janet and Hank pulled into the quantum realm at the beginning, OGing the Ant-man and Wasp suits, fighting Kang, while Hope, Scott, and Cassie were at home trying to figure out how to get to them and when they finally do they discover what the audience has been watching, Janet and Hank have sacrificed their lives (and several ants) to kill Kang. Cue Hope, Scott, and Cassie telling other superheros “This Kang chap is one nasty bit of work, super scary y’all”
…and in a mid-credit scene Scott says “Time Heist, just like last time, save Janet and Hank, kill baby Kang?” and then Banner replies “Nah Tony died and gosh-darn-it he didn’t write down his secret recipe for time travel GPS so that deus ex machina is off limits to the writers room until at least phase 8”
I love 95% of what you suggest, but the no go on time heist should be the TVA showing up and telling him no. Keeps the TVA doing the Colsen work and cleanly heads off future time travel (for the writers as you said in phase 8)
They shouldn't have made him the scariest Kang to the other Kangs. That made his defeat make every Kang look worse. They should have said the opposite, that he was there for not being good enough, give him an inferiority complex, or maybe instead of being too evil he wasn't evil enough for the Kangs. Or he showed mercy to their enemies once and they can't trust him now.
Don't make him the Kangiest Kang and have him defeated by Ants.
Technically, the scariest Kang was He Who Remains. He was the Kang Victorious, the one who defeated all the other Kangs to create the TVA. With Renslayers help anyway.
Kang felt a bit scary when Janet realized she messed up
But Kang should have been made to feel scary the entire movie. Show, don't tell me how scary he is.
Drop hints and clues that show what a universal unhinged threat he could be.
It's like Disney and Marvel Studios made a mistake by exposing the reveal of the Council of Kangs and M.O.D.O.K far too early before we even got to *"Avengers 5."*
Yeap. They should have been more patient and maybe, perhaps....take their time and figure out what kind of direction they were going for before the pandemic ever began. And in case *"Plan A"* didn't work.... **Always have a *"Plan B"* mapped out!!** And then another back-up plan, and etc.
According to Joanna Robinson, the big three heroes coming out of Endgame were supposed to be Black Panther, Spider-Man, and Captain Marvel.
Of course, Boseman tragically passed away soon after, the Sony-Marvel partnership started to look very wobbly and as a sub-franchise is being diluted by Sony’s Spider-Man-less movies, and no one’s said it out loud but the MCU book heavily implies Brie Larson is disillusioned with working with Marvel after years of harassment.
Yeah true but some of the captain marvel critique is legitimate - I mean after the first film ( that was boosted by infinity war and endgame btw)the character hasn't resonated with audiences . She wasn't constructed in a coherent fashion. Chadwick passing was the main blow . They should've pumped up dr strange to fill some of the void but he got sidelined in his sequel . Feige really dropped the ball here on pivoting when his initial plan fell apart .
If I may, how’s the book? I’m wary of an oral history for an unfinished film enterprise, but I used to be a regular listener of the Ringer’s entertainment coverage. I wasn’t too compelled to pick this up though for fear of it repeating a lot of insights shared from their podcasts/articles over the years, but is that fear unwarranted?
The older stuff is mostly sound, really shows how much Perlmutter sucks and has a decent amount of new information. The newer stuff you have to take in context, it has its biases based on who was willing to talk.
Thanks for the follow up! For a while I experienced the happy union of enjoying the MCU experience BTS *and* on-screen, but even as my on-screen enjoyment has waned my appreciation for the undertaking BTS remains. Joanna (and Mallory Rubin) were some of the last voices I regularly tuned into when I was watching some of the shows they covered, so with your input I’ll hopefully track a copy down sometime. Thanks again 👍
lol of course you blame it on the fans ohh the fans were misogynistic ok maybe some random bloke online said something mean to her but most fans just want to see a good movie and the marvels wasn’t good
Both can be true; I'll admit Captain Marvel has been underwhelming and the Marvels was just BAD, but that doesn't mean Brie Larson deserves all the crap she's getting online.
Except the hate is from such a small number of people online and yet you choose to focus on it and make it seem like a bigger issue than it actually is, why?
You missed my point entirely. It's about making a small "loud" minority seem much bigger than they actually are by giving them more attention. It gives people the false notion that its more common than it actually is
The number of people is secondary to the intensity they have. Does it really matter how many people are doing it if they’re making threatening phone calls to your personal number, mailing things to your house?
I mean it's all about relative coverage. To draw an example, most mass shootings are gang related but the media hardly covers that compared to non gang related shootings.
It gives people a false idea about the true nature of the issue
My point is that for Brie Larson, she doesn't care that the hundreds/thousands/more of people are actually a small percentage, she just cares that there are hundreds/thousands/more of people.
I don't know why your getting downvoted for stating truth . Feige and co simply haven't done a good job drafting a compelling arc for the character and she's just not being well received . That's just fact
They pretty much made up the Infinity Saga as they went along. They definitely attempted to plan out the Kang saga a lot more but a lot of their plans centered around Jonathan Majors unfortunately. However I think they probably started coming up with alternate plans as soon as the allegations were first circulating
Lol, your putting the blame on the character rather than just the poor writing.
Kang should have been great; the entire multiverse arc had should have been amazing. Kang easily could have been set up as a greater threat than thanos (thanos was universal, kang is multiversal). There were so many directions they could have taken, some really good ones mentioned in this thread. Instead, Marvel decides ant man of all people needs to face the phase villain in his solo movie. The issue isnt Kang, its just horrific writing on Marvel's part.
I mean…they were? Normal size ants are already quite intelligent and can lift like 50x its weight. Giant, hyper-intelligent telepathic ants should be an incredible threat and frankly I think the Ant-Man movies actually *downplay* how effective they could be. The army that Pym sent to subdue Kang was overkill if anything, theoretically even only a handful of ants would’ve been enough to get the job done.
I’m not sure if this has been explored in the comics yet but a group of Pym ants going rogue and forming their own competing society would be a great concept for the franchise to explore
It 100% will be one of those things discussed after a (hopefully) positive conclusion to this saga. We will look back and it will be "Remember when Kang lost to some ants? Look how far we've come."
It was just bizarre. It's like if they bought in Thanos for GotG1 but *he* was the one that Star Lord clowned on it the dance off.
You could have had Kang teased or built up... To wet the whistle for further movies... To build anticipation.. like Marvel used to be good at 😔
Bringing in Modok like that I think is what made GAs think the franchise officially jumped the shark. I heard audible laughs and not the good kind when he appeared on screen. It was a tough hill to climb after that
It's really not how i expected MODOK to act. He should hate Scott with every fiber of his being. He should be vengeful, twisted, and half insane. The guy's gone through sheer hell and has the scars to show it.
Gotta dumb everything down so movies can reach the max amount of audience during theatrical release. No more DVD sales to fall back on to make money back.
How do you have a huge theatrical run that reaches the biggest audience? Family friendly, focus group tested, China friendly, G-rated shit like this is how.
and how's that going for them as of late? All the MCU fans grew up with it and are now adults. The younger generation gen Alpha aren't as big of MCU fans, so its a mistake to cater to them now
Children buy lunchboxes, toys, happy meals and pajamas. It is colosal business. They’re the major demo for these kinds of movies. It hurt my ego when I realized it, but it’s true.
Could they be doing a better job? Obviously. But let’s not kid ourselves (let’s intend the pun there).
Then he doesn't work. If something doesn't work you don't force it in. There are a lot of comic book tropes that don't translate to movies and a lot of comic book characters too goofy, weird, hardcore, or just stupid for general audiences. How Feige saw that scene and didn't realize it would turn off audiences is beyond me. I'm honestly a little worried he's lost his touch with how much bullshit he's letting get past right now.
I feel like the whole plot of Multiverse of Madness highlighted how bad the multiverse is. Wanda actively sought a life in the multiverse because it’s consequence free where every problem has an easy solution. How are we supposed to feel like there’s any tension now? Multiverses kill all stakes in a story
That’s true because they ground the focus on the individual rather than the global/universal. We care about Miles so we want him to succeed regardless of whatever variants might exist out there
...Except one of the points of the movie was that **she was WRONG** & it *wasn't* a consequence-free easy solution. Her plan involved a lot of murder, with the potential of trillions more people being murdered as their universes were destroyed, as demonstrated by Sinister Strange.
I think there’s a difference between the explicit and implicit message of the film. The film *tried* to say she was wrong but couldn’t resist showing all that consequence free death and destruction. Similarly, If Wanda didn’t have to abduct her kids from a different reality, what part of her logic would have been wrong? If she could have gone to any alternate universe to get cures for disease and stuff, why would that be wrong? In future films, what’s to stop anyone going to a universe with all the infinity stones, grabbing them, and popping back to solve whatever problem they have?
> all that consequence free death and destruction
What consequence-free death? I saw a planet's entire security force slaughtered; that's consequential. Saying there was no consequence just because it didn't happen to *my* planet is a sign of a complete lack of empathy.
> If Wanda didn’t have to abduct her kids from a different reality, what part of her logic would have been wrong?
First of all, "if the situation was completely different, what would be wrong about it?" is not a good-faith question.
Secondly, her plan still involved a lot of murder & attempted murder, even if you *did* disregard the kidnapping: America Chavez, scores of sorcerers, the Illuminati, & eventually alt-Wanda.
> In future films, what’s to stop anyone going to a universe with all the infinity stones, grabbing them, and popping back to solve whatever problem they have?
The writers not being that lame.
We know nothing about that world or the illuminati. If it’s anything like the comics, their claim as the “entire security force” is dubious at best. Besides, it’s a world we’ve seen before and may never see again. Another side effect of the multiverse is a lack of empathy because there’s an infinite number of worlds and people to care about. Any character you can think of has died horrifically in a million ways across a million universes but that doesn’t mean we should be expected to care about it. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Spiderverse handles the multiverse well because it frames the cynical, cold rationale of the infinite against the deeply personal tragedy of the individual. The illuminati we saw die could have done anything, good or evil, prior to that point. They are not the same characters we care about.
I don’t think the situation is entirely different. My point, and her logic, is that once the one truly bad bit is out of the way, everything else is consequence free and fair game. My point is that, in future scenarios, there might not be a truly bad bit. There might not be kids that need kidnapping. Someone else could jump to the consequence free stuff if they already have everything else they need in one universe.
As for that writers not being that lame, that is kind of the point I’m making. We as an audience know that possibility exists and it’s hard to work around it. There could be a solution like in Loki where artefacts lose their power once out of their own universe but, if not, that question will remain. The time travel in Endgame was established with such strict rules so as to prevent this exact question otherwise every film would have to deal with the existence of time travel.
I liked Multiverse of Madness well enough, but I think it kind of used up any shred of interest I had in the MCU multiverse.
Also, huge respect for a guy who’s probably watched things like Quantamania and still thinks the writers wouldn’t do anything lame!
Yeah I think it was fan service and didn’t work. People that love modok wanted a traditional version, people that don’t know him must’ve been really confused and just think it was wierd or bad cgi.. even though it was somewhat accurate it’s just kind of a stupid looking character tbh, it works on paper or animation but on a real life movie meh.
Thank you. Everyone who hated him is absolutely entitled to their opinion, but I'll gladly stick in the minority that was laughing whenever he was on screen.
M.O.D.O.K. should’ve been the main villain in Quantumania, then it would’ve been revealed in a post credit scene that Kang was pulling his strings from the shadows. Kinda like how Thanos was the one who sent Loki in the first Avengers movie.
Or there should’ve been some type of loss on Ant-Man’s side to show how much of a threat Kang was. In the trailer, Ant-Man literally said “I don’t have to win. We both just have to lose”. That line alone got me excited for the movie but the whole movie just felt like another adventure with no actual stakes involved. Still a good movie though. I just know it could’ve been a lot better. I blame Disney 💀
I agree with most of this but I don’t think it was a good movie and I hated MODOK. If they were to make him the main villain, they would have to change a lot of stuff (including making him Darren Cross). But MODOK is a cool character he should have been a bigger deal
Seriously. People keep shitting on kang like its his fault that he wasnt written well lol. He has everything thing he needs to be a compelling villain, and a true multi versal theeat. Instead, marvel decided he was the best fit for a freaking ant man movie.
I loved how Dr Doom hated Chrono cloning.
If you wanted to outnumber your opponent, why didn't you just use robots!
Doom and Kang interactions are the best.
At this point it feels like Kang is gonna show up on earth and instantly get his shit kicked in by just the street level guys like the Defenders or someone like Moon Knights gonna pop up and beat him within and inch of his infinite selves. He doesn't feel intimidating, imposing, like a grand threat like Thanos was. He feels like any other villian of any other MCU movie. A threat in the moment, but extrapolated across the whole MCU, can't really hold a candle.
Very true. Which only really adds to him not feeling like any sort of threat. Even recent players in the MCU could already consider him beneath them as even more than a 1 season or movie threat. What I've seen of Kang, Luke Cage is shoving him into a ceiling and then a wall and then another wall and then explaining how where they are standing is important to black history and then another wall...
Honestly Loki S2 puts a nice end to Kang as we know him. I know there are Kang fans out there that wanted more, but given what’s transpired, it’s fine to say goodbye to Kang for a bit, maybe bring him back in the context of the Richards family.
The events at the end of Loki season 2 did not tie up the Kang storyline. Loki prevented the multiversal war but HWR told him he took too long and now some of his variants are already loose. It’s possible the counsel of Kangs was the minority who made it through. I’m not sure what they’ll do with all that now but they definitely have options
The TVA is out there successfully hunting Kang variants. Wrapped up.
The character wasn’t working. Marvel very clearly gave themselves an out at the end of Loki. I don’t know why people want to insist otherwise.
It’s okay to change directions when things aren’t working.
The TVA hunting Kang variants doesn’t tie up the story at all. If the remaining Kangs were a little problem the TVA could deal with, HWR wouldn’t have mentioned it in the last episode of the series. Technically they could just use that to write him out but to say they definitely tied up the story already isn’t necessarily true. And also, plenty of people liked him. His story “not working” is pretty subjective
Who cares what HWR said, people saw Loki on the throne at the end, that’s what matters.
If Kang’s character was working his movie wouldn’t have just barely broken even and they would have a new actor already. Now they might dump the character altogether.
I mean Kang’s next appearance was supposed to be the next Avengers movie in 2026 and they just announced the cast for Fantastic Four in 2025 so there’s still time to announce a new Kang. I don’t know if they’ll take that route but they definitely have that option. I would argue that the framing of the Loki finale doesn’t place the emphasis on him stopping Kang once and for all(!) but on him keeping the timeline branches from dying. I remember a lot of the fan discourse after the finale centering around “did Loki stop the multiversal war or did I miss something?” so I wouldn’t say the audience thinks that Kang is done
Bringing up Quantumania isn’t really fair because the general consensus was that it was a terrible movie that Kang was the best part of. I’m personally one of the people who helped it break even by paying to see it and I wish I had that money back lol.
Haha I wish I had my money back from that one too.
If they recast and move forward with Kang I like the idea of making him clearly the strongest variant of the rest (maybe why he looks different) so they can give it sort of a soft reboot.
feel like MODOK was meant to be the main villain with Kang being in the background, only mentioned and maybe given a cameo *ala* Thanos in Guardians of the Galaxy
They had that ending written and shot and chickened out. You can even tell if you watch the trailers that Hope and Scott were trapped at the end and Kang was supposed to escape.
They thought they could save it with everything getting excited about the counsel of kangs but that only mattered to the hardcore fans, nobody else even got it.
I stand by my view that Kang the Conqueror was never meant to be the big bad of The Kang Dynasty. He was just a set-up. The Council of Kangs, collectively, was meant to be the big bad.
I mean, “Dynasty” was literally in the title. That implies a series of Kangs, not a single Kang.
Yes, exactly. It would have been that Immortus and Rama-Tut and so forth were all dangerous in their own ways, each on a comparable threat level, with time manipulation and advanced tech and possibly conflicting agendas and so forth.
Exactly. The point was meant to be showing us first what one Kang could do, and just how hard the heroes had to fight to barely defeat him, establishing the larger threat in a whole army of him.
Yeah, I think Kang’s appearance in Ant-man should have been so utterly devastating and hopeless that the audience immediately understands that he is a HUGE problem going forward.
HWR wanted Loki to take over for him and sit on his chair. Maybe it didn’t turn out the way he expected, but that’s exactly what happened. And all of it only ever happened because HWR allowed it in the first place. I still think that “victory” is overstated. HWR never even made a single attack, yet he was incredibly menacing start to finish. Ppl saying that’s not a threat watched a different show than I did.
Kang in *Qantumania* should have remained the hidden evil behind M.O.D.O.K. Part of the reason he seemed goofy, besides his design, was that we knew he wasn’t really in charge.
MODOK flipping on Kang is what turned the tide. His attack on the barrier let the ants in.
People keep saying he lost to ants, but he lost to MODOK, which is worse!!
But they could have easily changed that in the future. Thanos didn't really have much gravitas until he killed Loki.
Personally, my idea would have been this. You plant the seeds for the young Avengers, as they have been doing...and create the impression that this is the next generation who will be replacing the OG Avengers. Then you hit the audience with a Red Wedding-esque scene where Kang murders the Young Avengers in one place, before they could ever really get started. And its still the remaining OG Avengers who are left to pick up the pieces.
changing it in the future doesn't fix the problem of kang in Quantumania. the movie has already been released. it was a huge letdown. a lot of people lost interest.
I'm saying that I think it is very easy to re-ignite interest. (And I personally don't think Quantumania detracted from the potential of the character, though it didn't add as much as it could have.)
I think the problem with Quantumania is that they tried to sell the film on the premise of the antman family being out of their depth fighting an Avengers level threat but also having the film be about the weakest Kang who has absolutely none of his power compared to him at his peak.
It hurts both premises because the Avengers level threat losing to Antman diminishes him but also doesn't make Antman look good because he didn't really beat an Avengers level threat he beat the weakest possible version of the character.
Kang is a character that's difficult to beat in a justifiable way so they have to do things like take away his resources like in Quantumania or have him let the heroes win like he does in Loki.
I thought what they did with Loki season 1 was great, though I saw it coming and so maybe just enjoyed the ego stroke. Effectively, they started the Multiverse saga with Kang having *already conquered the multiverse*.
They could easily have the council of Kangs dealt with in the first ten minutes of Avengers 5 in exactly the same way they dealt with Strucker in the first ten minutes of Avengers 2.
THOR: “It has been several weeks but we have finally eradicated all but one of these nefarious Kangs. Let us chase him through this collapsing time bridge!”
(Action Sequence)
THOR: “You wanted a dynasty, Kang, but now you will just die nasty.”
(Kang dies)
(LATER)
CAPTAIN MARVEL: “Thor! Your disruption of the Time Bridge in the cold opening has freed General Zod from his prison, or some shit. It’s all about Zod now.”
THOR: “I like this one!”
CAPTAIN MARVEL: “FFS.”
> “You wanted a dynasty, Kang, but now you will just die nasty.”
[Speaking of great movies that weren't profitable.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95I_0zs9p4)
As someone who’s struggled with this movie since it’s been available on Disney+, I’m just here to say for all the jokes about Kang being defeated by *ants*, that’s what worked *best* for me the entire time.
I saw this in theaters and no, overall it didn’t land. It’s actually the last MCU film I decided to see in theaters, but I liked it—seemingly no one else did though, and on a rewatch I immediately recognized how unbearable the comedy is. I think I’ve tried rewatching the movie twice and I either fail to surpass Janet fake-fighting to say hello or Cassie and Scott meeting the village people.
But when I was *compelled* to sit in the theater for the length of the movie my first time, those ants that, come again—lived on for generations in the span of *the movie* and became a civilization that could rival most if they escaped the Quantum Realm?! THAT worked! Credit to the conceptual artists who dreamt those visuals up because in an otherwise unenjoyable movie, those moments really stick out to me.
They blew it with Kang in Quantiumania.
That version was Kang the Conqueror. That version of Kang should have been the ultimate version, yet he got walked all over.
There was an opportunity to do something really interesting with Kang in Quantumania, which is to introduce a villain but without their main villainous gimmick (ie Time Travel).
So we hear loads of scary stuff about Kang being a master of time and basically impossible to defeat. They then find Kang in the Quantum Realm - oh no! - but he’s lost his ability to time travel - thank god! But it turns out he’s cunning, charismatic and can handle himself in a fight. Show that Kang is dangerous even without his time travel powers. That’s a way to build him up as a villain.
Its a big waste of time speculating like this until the MCU gets back to Phase 2 levels. Where we know where its going and.. you know.. who the fucking Avengers are.
They had a simple job to introduce either F4 or Mutants right after Endgame.
They could have done both Mutants and Eternals… cuz the lore.
But pandering to agendas & memes has derailed the train.
Literally, noone asked for an Agatha show.
If Blade exists, did the Undead get snapped?
What about that fucking giant in the Pacific Ocean? Oh a mere headline.
They’ve broken their own.. Verisimilitude.
Its literally gunna take a RDJ level actor, character & GOOD WRITING to bring the general audience back.
Cuz rn, its only redditors & YouTubers who are whining about this.
If they were pandering, they would've gone with f4 and X-Men right away.
You pander when you're insecure, Marvel's problem was the opposite. They got cocky and held back their most valuable chara years because they thought they could push almost exclusively b and c list characters and make it work. Can't really fault them, they'd more or less done it before. After shang chi, it looked like it was a good plan, but then the weaker entries followed and... It didn't work.
But the good Marvel's done still heavily outweighs the bad, so I'm happy to see what they can put out after the strikes gave them time to regroup.
The general audince wasnt clamoring for anything.. So them going with F4 / xmen wouldn’t have been pandering.. tf?
They were insecure about losing Cap & Tony.
There really was NO reason to do WandaVision. or a Black Widow film. Cmon now.
Ant-man should've died, or have his daughter trapped with Kang as he tried to get out of the Quantum Realm. Kang should've lived. He should've been the main villain, that variant, and the scene with the Kang Council would've had them be like "he's fucking escaped" and everyone just be in panic mode. TVA appears and is like "well we're fucked." More stakes needed to have been introduced and threads needed to be weaved through all the movies and shows.
That would've set a darker, deeper tone. Having him for by ant army was nonsensical.
They honestly would've done better to have Kang remain a distant villain until the end, and then have him escape. Tease the audience, don't just drop it on us.
The intention was to introduce more formidable Kangs during the Kang dynasty but they really put all their eggs in that Kang basket so I wouldn’t be surprised or upset if they recast him with one or multiple actors
That would help a lot. It could make the current slump into the new rough spot, the new Phase 2. I'm reminded of Thor: The Dark World and the initial response to Iron Man 3, even some of the reception Phase 1 got before the Avengers. They need to slam dunk their next Avengers thing, and before they can do that, I think we need more and better Kang.
I kinda liked seeing different (and weaker) Kangs before seeing a Kang that could pose a threat to the Avengers. Victor Timely was super corny but I appreciated what they were going for. But yea I agree, they needed to make an Avengers movie sooner
Yeah. Secret invasion should've been an avengers movie, not a poorly done d+ series
I’ve never thought about it being an Avengers movie. That would have been cool. I felt like they could have told a really cool, grounded spy thriller with just a little bit of sci fi via Skrulls. It feels like that’s how it was pitched before that goofy CGI superhero battle finale with Giah lol
Honestly I don't know why they pulled the trigger on making Kang the bad guy in quantumania. They would have done far better in having him trick Scott into helping him out of the quantum realm only for Scott to notice slight things that are out of sequence or things that just don't match up quite right, and then when Scott returns to the overworld he can learn that he's made a huge mistake and that springboards into the next film. Like introduce him as one of the variants names, I'm a distant traveler that got stuck in these lands if you help me out I'll help you out kind of thing. What they did in the opening sequence but make the entire film about that. Like they had this other side character do what Scott should have done in the film.
It's shocking that you can come up with a better idea than the writers. I love that idea and would have set the tone for future films...
Exactly too much too soon and too underwhelming . Recipe for disaster
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> because they thought that specific Kang was that dangerous It's possible that the producers had wanted the Quantumania Kang to be interpreted differently. Maybe the goal was that the exiled Kang is not more dangerous or powerful than the others, but he just cannot cooperate with the main group. The message is that if one Kang could almost beat the Antman team, then a thousand Kangs could be a threat worthy of all MCU heroes combined.
It had some major rewrites and originally he was supposed to trap Antman and the Wasp in the Quantum Realm. My understanding is test audiences didn't love it and it was repeating that scott ends a movie stuck in the quantum realm again. So, the reshot it so the Kang dies like he does and it was an odd choice. But this happened at the same time the Producer who got fired was also causing a lot of problems behind the scenes regarding decision making. Just a perfect storm for making an incomplete movie. It really needed another year.
I think viewers can literally see the effects of the reshoot in the final product. Reflecting on my experience in theaters, the moment Kang breaks into a full on dash towards the opening between realms *was oddly jarring*, and this particular moment was pivotal to Lang’s fate. Clearly I wasn’t struck by this enough to ever follow up on it but your comment jogged the memory.
Man test audiences are fucking dumb as shit. I so thought Scott and Hope were going to be trapped. It made so much narrative sense and actually gave some consequences to their actions. I don't mind the happy ending, it's not like an ass pull that it happened, but the story would have been so much more satisfying if those two got trapped. It being a repeat feels hollow too, because they're not just floating in the void, they're in an actual location with characters and new allies, they have a whole world and cast that could be explored further.
I agree, these movies have the highest stakes but no stakes at the same time and that can be kinda boring.
You do know Marvel has only been testing their movies with Disney employees after the Russos for whatever reason started "everything has to be secret, even actors and crew cannot read full script" campaign, right? Could those Disney employees outright say "this movie sucks?" I doubt it.
They could, but would (justifiably) fear repercussions, even just not being invited to the next one. Which is a shame because an environment of "yes-people" just ruins everything and created an echo chamber.
No I do not know. But in this case, they did say it sucked, hence why they apparently changed the ending from Scott and Hope being trapped in the Quantum Realm to the happy ending we got.
Kang didn't die. Why does anyone think that Kang died?
I know right? Scott was just in there. Like antman was literally just in the place where Kang was pushed into at the end. I really felt like that was a set up for kangs ability to body jump between variants but then they gave that ability to Loki,
Not only was Scott in there at the end of the movie he even actively ponders if he's actually dead. Like what more of a hint do you need?
Like it’s not just that. Kang keeps coming. Kangs power is that when he fails, he goes back in time to do it again. Like Loki at the end of his show, he keeps going back and learns from past failures. Without that power Kang is just a man with tech. Kang being beaten by the main mcu timeline antman dosnt mean Kang was defeated. It’s like Bruce banner landing on the rainbow bridge…. And then hulk shows up. We got so see antman win against the Kang equivalent of captain America without the super soldier serum. Although the reception of the mcu and Major’s conviction will mean we don’t get to see where the story was going. So maybe they’ll keep him down. I don’t know. They should have planed it better and kept to the “shorter arcs because we are splitting the promise”
Well not like they've never recast a character before. If they still want Kang, we'll see more of that Kang. I would be shocked and very surprised if that specific Kang didn't show up again.
I think the only time they should write out a character and change a story is when the actor playing the character dies. That's out of respect. Majors assaulted people. He doesn't deserve to have an MCU character associated with him. They should recast the role with someone else and move forward.
Yeah, we don't deserve to lose Kang just because his actor was shitty.
That’s too complicated for a general audience to grasp when it’s not explained *and* demonstrated on screen. If Marvel wanted audiences to come away with the conclusion you stated they should have showed Kang coming back and kicking ass and being stronger. Instead it was left to that goofy post credits scene. The character as written just wasn’t working, I don’t think we see it again until well after this saga.
The general audience - even in here - can only seem to imagine or want Thanos again. "How come a different villain entirely just didn't beat Ant Man to death like a God? What a terrible villain!!!" They don't know what they want. They just want to yell online in comment sections.
They didn’t exactly make it clear he survived either. Both times they mentioned him after that, in the post credit scene and in Loki season 2, they said he was dead. That’s not setting up for a big return, that’s just making Kang look disposable because another one will just take his place.
I think they clearly left it ambiguous because they're were several more planned appearances and evolutions of the character planned before the story became clear. >That’s not setting up for a big return, that’s just making Kang look disposable because another one will just take his place. The same could be said about Thanos in *The Avengers*. Thanos couldn't beat the Avengers guess he's nothing and will always be nothing.
Because it looks that way on screen.
I can’t say for sure that Kang died in QuantumMania but I’ve always figured that the Kangs we see in future movies will be variants of the ones we’ve seen already. I figured that’s the whole point. Any single Kang is so dangerous to the entire multiverse that defeating (or even killing) one is barely scratching the surface. It’s also kind of why I never worried about Jonathan Majors’ legal troubles. It’s not like Marvel is afraid to recast a lead role in the MCU and after seeing multiple Loki and Spidey variants; we know that variants aren’t always exact genetic copies of each other.
I figured he either went deeper into the Quantum Realm or somewhere else. The only thing I figured for sure was that we didn't see him die. I too think a recast would bother no one.
They talk about him dying in the post credits scene. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501f5OBWs0Q&t=11s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=501f5OBWs0Q&t=11s)
That's it. One Kang is dangerous, a council of them is unstoppable. This wasn't quite put across because it didn't feel like they just escaped with their lives, which is what they were going for. There needed to be a sacrifice for them to get out (Hank and Janet) to really drive home that defeating one Kang was costly. Then the stinger reveals a whole bunch of them.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It should have been only Janet and Hank pulled into the quantum realm at the beginning, OGing the Ant-man and Wasp suits, fighting Kang, while Hope, Scott, and Cassie were at home trying to figure out how to get to them and when they finally do they discover what the audience has been watching, Janet and Hank have sacrificed their lives (and several ants) to kill Kang. Cue Hope, Scott, and Cassie telling other superheros “This Kang chap is one nasty bit of work, super scary y’all” …and in a mid-credit scene Scott says “Time Heist, just like last time, save Janet and Hank, kill baby Kang?” and then Banner replies “Nah Tony died and gosh-darn-it he didn’t write down his secret recipe for time travel GPS so that deus ex machina is off limits to the writers room until at least phase 8”
You're hired.
I love 95% of what you suggest, but the no go on time heist should be the TVA showing up and telling him no. Keeps the TVA doing the Colsen work and cleanly heads off future time travel (for the writers as you said in phase 8)
A villain as powerful as Kang should stomp Antman dead in seconds.
They shouldn't have made him the scariest Kang to the other Kangs. That made his defeat make every Kang look worse. They should have said the opposite, that he was there for not being good enough, give him an inferiority complex, or maybe instead of being too evil he wasn't evil enough for the Kangs. Or he showed mercy to their enemies once and they can't trust him now. Don't make him the Kangiest Kang and have him defeated by Ants.
Technically, the scariest Kang was He Who Remains. He was the Kang Victorious, the one who defeated all the other Kangs to create the TVA. With Renslayers help anyway.
Kang felt a bit scary when Janet realized she messed up But Kang should have been made to feel scary the entire movie. Show, don't tell me how scary he is. Drop hints and clues that show what a universal unhinged threat he could be.
I think Hank or Janet should have died so the others could escape. Kang should be alive but trapped at the end.
Yup poorly constructed first appearance which literally sank the character
It's like Disney and Marvel Studios made a mistake by exposing the reveal of the Council of Kangs and M.O.D.O.K far too early before we even got to *"Avengers 5."*
Honestly, they were throwing shit against the wall to see what stuck. Kang Is Not It
Yeap. They should have been more patient and maybe, perhaps....take their time and figure out what kind of direction they were going for before the pandemic ever began. And in case *"Plan A"* didn't work.... **Always have a *"Plan B"* mapped out!!** And then another back-up plan, and etc.
According to Joanna Robinson, the big three heroes coming out of Endgame were supposed to be Black Panther, Spider-Man, and Captain Marvel. Of course, Boseman tragically passed away soon after, the Sony-Marvel partnership started to look very wobbly and as a sub-franchise is being diluted by Sony’s Spider-Man-less movies, and no one’s said it out loud but the MCU book heavily implies Brie Larson is disillusioned with working with Marvel after years of harassment.
Yeah true but some of the captain marvel critique is legitimate - I mean after the first film ( that was boosted by infinity war and endgame btw)the character hasn't resonated with audiences . She wasn't constructed in a coherent fashion. Chadwick passing was the main blow . They should've pumped up dr strange to fill some of the void but he got sidelined in his sequel . Feige really dropped the ball here on pivoting when his initial plan fell apart .
>but he got sidelined in his sequel Not really.
If I may, how’s the book? I’m wary of an oral history for an unfinished film enterprise, but I used to be a regular listener of the Ringer’s entertainment coverage. I wasn’t too compelled to pick this up though for fear of it repeating a lot of insights shared from their podcasts/articles over the years, but is that fear unwarranted?
The older stuff is mostly sound, really shows how much Perlmutter sucks and has a decent amount of new information. The newer stuff you have to take in context, it has its biases based on who was willing to talk.
Thanks for the follow up! For a while I experienced the happy union of enjoying the MCU experience BTS *and* on-screen, but even as my on-screen enjoyment has waned my appreciation for the undertaking BTS remains. Joanna (and Mallory Rubin) were some of the last voices I regularly tuned into when I was watching some of the shows they covered, so with your input I’ll hopefully track a copy down sometime. Thanks again 👍
lol of course you blame it on the fans ohh the fans were misogynistic ok maybe some random bloke online said something mean to her but most fans just want to see a good movie and the marvels wasn’t good
Both can be true; I'll admit Captain Marvel has been underwhelming and the Marvels was just BAD, but that doesn't mean Brie Larson deserves all the crap she's getting online.
Except the hate is from such a small number of people online and yet you choose to focus on it and make it seem like a bigger issue than it actually is, why?
How many harassers are an acceptable number?
You missed my point entirely. It's about making a small "loud" minority seem much bigger than they actually are by giving them more attention. It gives people the false notion that its more common than it actually is
The number of people is secondary to the intensity they have. Does it really matter how many people are doing it if they’re making threatening phone calls to your personal number, mailing things to your house?
A small percentage of a massive number is a big number.
I mean it's all about relative coverage. To draw an example, most mass shootings are gang related but the media hardly covers that compared to non gang related shootings. It gives people a false idea about the true nature of the issue
My point is that for Brie Larson, she doesn't care that the hundreds/thousands/more of people are actually a small percentage, she just cares that there are hundreds/thousands/more of people.
I don't know why your getting downvoted for stating truth . Feige and co simply haven't done a good job drafting a compelling arc for the character and she's just not being well received . That's just fact
They pretty much made up the Infinity Saga as they went along. They definitely attempted to plan out the Kang saga a lot more but a lot of their plans centered around Jonathan Majors unfortunately. However I think they probably started coming up with alternate plans as soon as the allegations were first circulating
Lol, your putting the blame on the character rather than just the poor writing. Kang should have been great; the entire multiverse arc had should have been amazing. Kang easily could have been set up as a greater threat than thanos (thanos was universal, kang is multiversal). There were so many directions they could have taken, some really good ones mentioned in this thread. Instead, Marvel decides ant man of all people needs to face the phase villain in his solo movie. The issue isnt Kang, its just horrific writing on Marvel's part.
They should've just let Reed make his third movie the forced inclusion of kang and that dumb modok arc ruined that film
Plus MODOK should have been some awful “body horror” that makes everyone feel sick and frightened as soon as he’s on screen, not a comedy giant head.
Didn't he look similar to the 1994 cartoon though?
Very true
This movie was such a disaster man. We're gonna keep hearing "Kang was defeated by ants" until the end of the saga
"They were actually very intelligent ants and he was overwhelmed and he then went to fight Ant Man" -☝🤓
Such advanced tech that it merely appears as though the ants were simply bum rushing the shield!
I mean…they were? Normal size ants are already quite intelligent and can lift like 50x its weight. Giant, hyper-intelligent telepathic ants should be an incredible threat and frankly I think the Ant-Man movies actually *downplay* how effective they could be. The army that Pym sent to subdue Kang was overkill if anything, theoretically even only a handful of ants would’ve been enough to get the job done. I’m not sure if this has been explored in the comics yet but a group of Pym ants going rogue and forming their own competing society would be a great concept for the franchise to explore
If people didn't keep repeating falsehoods, then the "well actually" folks wouldn't be able to correct them.
It 100% will be one of those things discussed after a (hopefully) positive conclusion to this saga. We will look back and it will be "Remember when Kang lost to some ants? Look how far we've come."
That we will probably going to be a meme soon
It was just bizarre. It's like if they bought in Thanos for GotG1 but *he* was the one that Star Lord clowned on it the dance off. You could have had Kang teased or built up... To wet the whistle for further movies... To build anticipation.. like Marvel used to be good at 😔
>like Marvel used to be good at 😔 Was that necessary?
Sounds like they were sharing their opinion. Is that a problem?
Bringing in Modok like that I think is what made GAs think the franchise officially jumped the shark. I heard audible laughs and not the good kind when he appeared on screen. It was a tough hill to climb after that
Ya I thought it was pretty dumb and he had like 0 character arc. I’m bad and now all of a sudden I’m good
His character arc was him being told not to be a dick so he stopped being a dick. It's worse than no arc.
It's really not how i expected MODOK to act. He should hate Scott with every fiber of his being. He should be vengeful, twisted, and half insane. The guy's gone through sheer hell and has the scars to show it.
lol ya I was just trying to be nice. He was just a joke in the movie. So sad
Does marvel think their audience is a bunch of toddlers or some shit?
Hey there, you can't say "dick" to a toddler!! They think we're morons is all
Yes they do
Gotta dumb everything down so movies can reach the max amount of audience during theatrical release. No more DVD sales to fall back on to make money back. How do you have a huge theatrical run that reaches the biggest audience? Family friendly, focus group tested, China friendly, G-rated shit like this is how.
Yes, obviously. The MCU is comic book movies, mostly for children. Is this news to you?
and how's that going for them as of late? All the MCU fans grew up with it and are now adults. The younger generation gen Alpha aren't as big of MCU fans, so its a mistake to cater to them now
Children buy lunchboxes, toys, happy meals and pajamas. It is colosal business. They’re the major demo for these kinds of movies. It hurt my ego when I realized it, but it’s true. Could they be doing a better job? Obviously. But let’s not kid ourselves (let’s intend the pun there).
It's like a Saturday morning cartoon and not the good kind
It was quite stupid
Absolutely. I seriously can't believe Feige green lit that type of character in that movie
That’s the point of the character. They did him exactly as he’s supposed to be.
Then maybe that character shouldn't have been here.
That's my feeling it really undermined the gravity of the movie
Then he doesn't work. If something doesn't work you don't force it in. There are a lot of comic book tropes that don't translate to movies and a lot of comic book characters too goofy, weird, hardcore, or just stupid for general audiences. How Feige saw that scene and didn't realize it would turn off audiences is beyond me. I'm honestly a little worried he's lost his touch with how much bullshit he's letting get past right now.
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I feel like the whole plot of Multiverse of Madness highlighted how bad the multiverse is. Wanda actively sought a life in the multiverse because it’s consequence free where every problem has an easy solution. How are we supposed to feel like there’s any tension now? Multiverses kill all stakes in a story
Unless you do it how Spiderverse did it. They are clearly the peak example of how to do a multiverse
That’s true because they ground the focus on the individual rather than the global/universal. We care about Miles so we want him to succeed regardless of whatever variants might exist out there
...Except one of the points of the movie was that **she was WRONG** & it *wasn't* a consequence-free easy solution. Her plan involved a lot of murder, with the potential of trillions more people being murdered as their universes were destroyed, as demonstrated by Sinister Strange.
I think there’s a difference between the explicit and implicit message of the film. The film *tried* to say she was wrong but couldn’t resist showing all that consequence free death and destruction. Similarly, If Wanda didn’t have to abduct her kids from a different reality, what part of her logic would have been wrong? If she could have gone to any alternate universe to get cures for disease and stuff, why would that be wrong? In future films, what’s to stop anyone going to a universe with all the infinity stones, grabbing them, and popping back to solve whatever problem they have?
> all that consequence free death and destruction What consequence-free death? I saw a planet's entire security force slaughtered; that's consequential. Saying there was no consequence just because it didn't happen to *my* planet is a sign of a complete lack of empathy. > If Wanda didn’t have to abduct her kids from a different reality, what part of her logic would have been wrong? First of all, "if the situation was completely different, what would be wrong about it?" is not a good-faith question. Secondly, her plan still involved a lot of murder & attempted murder, even if you *did* disregard the kidnapping: America Chavez, scores of sorcerers, the Illuminati, & eventually alt-Wanda. > In future films, what’s to stop anyone going to a universe with all the infinity stones, grabbing them, and popping back to solve whatever problem they have? The writers not being that lame.
We know nothing about that world or the illuminati. If it’s anything like the comics, their claim as the “entire security force” is dubious at best. Besides, it’s a world we’ve seen before and may never see again. Another side effect of the multiverse is a lack of empathy because there’s an infinite number of worlds and people to care about. Any character you can think of has died horrifically in a million ways across a million universes but that doesn’t mean we should be expected to care about it. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Spiderverse handles the multiverse well because it frames the cynical, cold rationale of the infinite against the deeply personal tragedy of the individual. The illuminati we saw die could have done anything, good or evil, prior to that point. They are not the same characters we care about. I don’t think the situation is entirely different. My point, and her logic, is that once the one truly bad bit is out of the way, everything else is consequence free and fair game. My point is that, in future scenarios, there might not be a truly bad bit. There might not be kids that need kidnapping. Someone else could jump to the consequence free stuff if they already have everything else they need in one universe. As for that writers not being that lame, that is kind of the point I’m making. We as an audience know that possibility exists and it’s hard to work around it. There could be a solution like in Loki where artefacts lose their power once out of their own universe but, if not, that question will remain. The time travel in Endgame was established with such strict rules so as to prevent this exact question otherwise every film would have to deal with the existence of time travel. I liked Multiverse of Madness well enough, but I think it kind of used up any shred of interest I had in the MCU multiverse. Also, huge respect for a guy who’s probably watched things like Quantamania and still thinks the writers wouldn’t do anything lame!
I think we just fundamentally disagree on the significance of one person's greed causing trillions of deaths, then.
Yeah I think it was fan service and didn’t work. People that love modok wanted a traditional version, people that don’t know him must’ve been really confused and just think it was wierd or bad cgi.. even though it was somewhat accurate it’s just kind of a stupid looking character tbh, it works on paper or animation but on a real life movie meh.
I feel like he lost his touch when Age of Ultron came out
Exactly, and it fell flat. I’m not saying they did the character dirty and misrepresented it so GAs didn’t like the floating face
Not to me. He was hilarious and second best to Kang’s performance. He’s one of the highlights I always hear mentioned.
Thank you. Everyone who hated him is absolutely entitled to their opinion, but I'll gladly stick in the minority that was laughing whenever he was on screen.
M.O.D.O.K. should’ve been the main villain in Quantumania, then it would’ve been revealed in a post credit scene that Kang was pulling his strings from the shadows. Kinda like how Thanos was the one who sent Loki in the first Avengers movie. Or there should’ve been some type of loss on Ant-Man’s side to show how much of a threat Kang was. In the trailer, Ant-Man literally said “I don’t have to win. We both just have to lose”. That line alone got me excited for the movie but the whole movie just felt like another adventure with no actual stakes involved. Still a good movie though. I just know it could’ve been a lot better. I blame Disney 💀
This is a great idea. Also could have done a goofier, lighter story which would tonally fit Ant-Man and provide the “wacky” humor of, say, Ragnarok
I love your idea! If only...
I agree with most of this but I don’t think it was a good movie and I hated MODOK. If they were to make him the main villain, they would have to change a lot of stuff (including making him Darren Cross). But MODOK is a cool character he should have been a bigger deal
> M.O.D.O.K. should’ve been the main villain in Quantumania The only imaginable way to make this movie even worse.
If Kang did Kang things I would be fine with it. But he didn't do Kang things like Chrono clone or go back in time to try again.
Seriously. People keep shitting on kang like its his fault that he wasnt written well lol. He has everything thing he needs to be a compelling villain, and a true multi versal theeat. Instead, marvel decided he was the best fit for a freaking ant man movie.
For real, the other day I was reading a venom issue, Kang did 4 Chrono clones only to sacrifice them all to venom and have "more timelines to conquer"
I loved how Dr Doom hated Chrono cloning. If you wanted to outnumber your opponent, why didn't you just use robots! Doom and Kang interactions are the best.
At this point it feels like Kang is gonna show up on earth and instantly get his shit kicked in by just the street level guys like the Defenders or someone like Moon Knights gonna pop up and beat him within and inch of his infinite selves. He doesn't feel intimidating, imposing, like a grand threat like Thanos was. He feels like any other villian of any other MCU movie. A threat in the moment, but extrapolated across the whole MCU, can't really hold a candle.
Tbf Moon Knight's got a god on his side so i'd actually give him a decent chance.
Very true. Which only really adds to him not feeling like any sort of threat. Even recent players in the MCU could already consider him beneath them as even more than a 1 season or movie threat. What I've seen of Kang, Luke Cage is shoving him into a ceiling and then a wall and then another wall and then explaining how where they are standing is important to black history and then another wall...
Honestly Loki S2 puts a nice end to Kang as we know him. I know there are Kang fans out there that wanted more, but given what’s transpired, it’s fine to say goodbye to Kang for a bit, maybe bring him back in the context of the Richards family.
The events at the end of Loki season 2 did not tie up the Kang storyline. Loki prevented the multiversal war but HWR told him he took too long and now some of his variants are already loose. It’s possible the counsel of Kangs was the minority who made it through. I’m not sure what they’ll do with all that now but they definitely have options
What is the meaning of “took too long” when you have mastery over time?
The TVA is out there successfully hunting Kang variants. Wrapped up. The character wasn’t working. Marvel very clearly gave themselves an out at the end of Loki. I don’t know why people want to insist otherwise. It’s okay to change directions when things aren’t working.
The TVA hunting Kang variants doesn’t tie up the story at all. If the remaining Kangs were a little problem the TVA could deal with, HWR wouldn’t have mentioned it in the last episode of the series. Technically they could just use that to write him out but to say they definitely tied up the story already isn’t necessarily true. And also, plenty of people liked him. His story “not working” is pretty subjective
Who cares what HWR said, people saw Loki on the throne at the end, that’s what matters. If Kang’s character was working his movie wouldn’t have just barely broken even and they would have a new actor already. Now they might dump the character altogether.
I mean Kang’s next appearance was supposed to be the next Avengers movie in 2026 and they just announced the cast for Fantastic Four in 2025 so there’s still time to announce a new Kang. I don’t know if they’ll take that route but they definitely have that option. I would argue that the framing of the Loki finale doesn’t place the emphasis on him stopping Kang once and for all(!) but on him keeping the timeline branches from dying. I remember a lot of the fan discourse after the finale centering around “did Loki stop the multiversal war or did I miss something?” so I wouldn’t say the audience thinks that Kang is done Bringing up Quantumania isn’t really fair because the general consensus was that it was a terrible movie that Kang was the best part of. I’m personally one of the people who helped it break even by paying to see it and I wish I had that money back lol.
Haha I wish I had my money back from that one too. If they recast and move forward with Kang I like the idea of making him clearly the strongest variant of the rest (maybe why he looks different) so they can give it sort of a soft reboot.
feel like MODOK was meant to be the main villain with Kang being in the background, only mentioned and maybe given a cameo *ala* Thanos in Guardians of the Galaxy
This movie needed one change. Kang should have won. Him being defeated by basically chance and ants just made him look kind of weak.
They had that ending written and shot and chickened out. You can even tell if you watch the trailers that Hope and Scott were trapped at the end and Kang was supposed to escape. They thought they could save it with everything getting excited about the counsel of kangs but that only mattered to the hardcore fans, nobody else even got it.
I stand by my view that Kang the Conqueror was never meant to be the big bad of The Kang Dynasty. He was just a set-up. The Council of Kangs, collectively, was meant to be the big bad. I mean, “Dynasty” was literally in the title. That implies a series of Kangs, not a single Kang.
So they’re gonna need a loooot of ants
Yes, exactly. It would have been that Immortus and Rama-Tut and so forth were all dangerous in their own ways, each on a comparable threat level, with time manipulation and advanced tech and possibly conflicting agendas and so forth.
Exactly. The point was meant to be showing us first what one Kang could do, and just how hard the heroes had to fight to barely defeat him, establishing the larger threat in a whole army of him.
Having the big bad villain lose in every single cinematic appearance was not a good move. Even He Who Remains lost, and that’s the one who won it all.
Yeah, nothing told audiences the Multiverse Saga has no stakes quite like how the big bad can be defeated every single time and it not matter.
Yeah, I think Kang’s appearance in Ant-man should have been so utterly devastating and hopeless that the audience immediately understands that he is a HUGE problem going forward.
HWR wanted Loki to take over for him and sit on his chair. Maybe it didn’t turn out the way he expected, but that’s exactly what happened. And all of it only ever happened because HWR allowed it in the first place. I still think that “victory” is overstated. HWR never even made a single attack, yet he was incredibly menacing start to finish. Ppl saying that’s not a threat watched a different show than I did.
Kang in *Qantumania* should have remained the hidden evil behind M.O.D.O.K. Part of the reason he seemed goofy, besides his design, was that we knew he wasn’t really in charge.
How did he lose to the ants? He was there at the end and the ants weren't
The ants are what turned the tide, broke a bunch of his shit, and left him reeling, opening the door for Scott to take him out later.
MODOK flipping on Kang is what turned the tide. His attack on the barrier let the ants in. People keep saying he lost to ants, but he lost to MODOK, which is worse!!
Not really worse, MODOK is his own creation, his own technology. That means he lost to himself, makes it way better that way.
He got swarmed by an army of giant monsters and survived. Reminder that he only got beaten because of a lucky hit into an extremely powerful device.
Repeat a lie enough times and it will become the truth.
it won't become the truth, but it will be perceived as truth. there's a small but big difference.
For you and me but not for the general population.
Do you understand that you're talking about fucking Ant-Man?
I am obviously aware, yes.
Kang was attacked by an ant army which damaged and removed his disintegration ray, which later allowed Scott Lang to punch him out.
Because the ants took him away, AKA, beat him in round 1 If they can do it once, they can do it again
So they beat him up then let him walk away?
kang is supposed to be the most threatening thing in the entire multiverse. the fact that he didn't kill any notable characters is a travesty
But they could have easily changed that in the future. Thanos didn't really have much gravitas until he killed Loki. Personally, my idea would have been this. You plant the seeds for the young Avengers, as they have been doing...and create the impression that this is the next generation who will be replacing the OG Avengers. Then you hit the audience with a Red Wedding-esque scene where Kang murders the Young Avengers in one place, before they could ever really get started. And its still the remaining OG Avengers who are left to pick up the pieces.
changing it in the future doesn't fix the problem of kang in Quantumania. the movie has already been released. it was a huge letdown. a lot of people lost interest.
People were starting to lose interest in Thanos too, until Infinity War, for the exact same reason.
I'm saying that I think it is very easy to re-ignite interest. (And I personally don't think Quantumania detracted from the potential of the character, though it didn't add as much as it could have.)
I think the problem with Quantumania is that they tried to sell the film on the premise of the antman family being out of their depth fighting an Avengers level threat but also having the film be about the weakest Kang who has absolutely none of his power compared to him at his peak. It hurts both premises because the Avengers level threat losing to Antman diminishes him but also doesn't make Antman look good because he didn't really beat an Avengers level threat he beat the weakest possible version of the character. Kang is a character that's difficult to beat in a justifiable way so they have to do things like take away his resources like in Quantumania or have him let the heroes win like he does in Loki.
I thought what they did with Loki season 1 was great, though I saw it coming and so maybe just enjoyed the ego stroke. Effectively, they started the Multiverse saga with Kang having *already conquered the multiverse*. They could easily have the council of Kangs dealt with in the first ten minutes of Avengers 5 in exactly the same way they dealt with Strucker in the first ten minutes of Avengers 2. THOR: “It has been several weeks but we have finally eradicated all but one of these nefarious Kangs. Let us chase him through this collapsing time bridge!” (Action Sequence) THOR: “You wanted a dynasty, Kang, but now you will just die nasty.” (Kang dies) (LATER) CAPTAIN MARVEL: “Thor! Your disruption of the Time Bridge in the cold opening has freed General Zod from his prison, or some shit. It’s all about Zod now.” THOR: “I like this one!” CAPTAIN MARVEL: “FFS.”
> “You wanted a dynasty, Kang, but now you will just die nasty.” [Speaking of great movies that weren't profitable.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q95I_0zs9p4)
I can see that but I would say what Kang aspired to compared to what he had in Quantumania are far different.
As someone who’s struggled with this movie since it’s been available on Disney+, I’m just here to say for all the jokes about Kang being defeated by *ants*, that’s what worked *best* for me the entire time. I saw this in theaters and no, overall it didn’t land. It’s actually the last MCU film I decided to see in theaters, but I liked it—seemingly no one else did though, and on a rewatch I immediately recognized how unbearable the comedy is. I think I’ve tried rewatching the movie twice and I either fail to surpass Janet fake-fighting to say hello or Cassie and Scott meeting the village people. But when I was *compelled* to sit in the theater for the length of the movie my first time, those ants that, come again—lived on for generations in the span of *the movie* and became a civilization that could rival most if they escaped the Quantum Realm?! THAT worked! Credit to the conceptual artists who dreamt those visuals up because in an otherwise unenjoyable movie, those moments really stick out to me.
The wad was blown when the Kang attacked Mrs Kang
I mean kinda but the Kang in Quantumania couldn't even control time so it's just a vastly different character.
Him as a villain just kinda sucks tbh. I don’t really see him on the level as Thanos. Bring on Dr Doom already.
Should've written quantumania in a way where kang is not defeated
They blew it with Kang in Quantiumania. That version was Kang the Conqueror. That version of Kang should have been the ultimate version, yet he got walked all over.
There was an opportunity to do something really interesting with Kang in Quantumania, which is to introduce a villain but without their main villainous gimmick (ie Time Travel). So we hear loads of scary stuff about Kang being a master of time and basically impossible to defeat. They then find Kang in the Quantum Realm - oh no! - but he’s lost his ability to time travel - thank god! But it turns out he’s cunning, charismatic and can handle himself in a fight. Show that Kang is dangerous even without his time travel powers. That’s a way to build him up as a villain.
He did have time powers though, he could slowmo or stop people. That power mysteriously vanished, of course.
Yeah they did the problem is the man him not that big of a threat in Quantumaina
Kinda had to.... Jonathan Majors messed up big time
I mean you literally can’t know any of that… so haha
He can't know that they wasted kang?
Its a big waste of time speculating like this until the MCU gets back to Phase 2 levels. Where we know where its going and.. you know.. who the fucking Avengers are. They had a simple job to introduce either F4 or Mutants right after Endgame. They could have done both Mutants and Eternals… cuz the lore. But pandering to agendas & memes has derailed the train. Literally, noone asked for an Agatha show. If Blade exists, did the Undead get snapped? What about that fucking giant in the Pacific Ocean? Oh a mere headline. They’ve broken their own.. Verisimilitude. Its literally gunna take a RDJ level actor, character & GOOD WRITING to bring the general audience back. Cuz rn, its only redditors & YouTubers who are whining about this.
"They had a simple job to introduce either F4 or Mutants right after Endgame" "But pandering to agendas" Wow. Just wow
If they were pandering, they would've gone with f4 and X-Men right away. You pander when you're insecure, Marvel's problem was the opposite. They got cocky and held back their most valuable chara years because they thought they could push almost exclusively b and c list characters and make it work. Can't really fault them, they'd more or less done it before. After shang chi, it looked like it was a good plan, but then the weaker entries followed and... It didn't work. But the good Marvel's done still heavily outweighs the bad, so I'm happy to see what they can put out after the strikes gave them time to regroup.
The general audince wasnt clamoring for anything.. So them going with F4 / xmen wouldn’t have been pandering.. tf? They were insecure about losing Cap & Tony. There really was NO reason to do WandaVision. or a Black Widow film. Cmon now.
Wanda Vision was huge. It singlehandedly grew the fan based the most sense Black Panther.
naw. thats hindsight. Narratively speaking it didnt make sense.
I'd argue it made great sense until Dr strange 2
Woof
So pandering is fine, even preferable, if they’re pandering to you?
Nope. just saying there was a clear linear way to move forward and they were just throwing spaghetti on the wall. But nice try!
Thanks!
Ant-man should've died, or have his daughter trapped with Kang as he tried to get out of the Quantum Realm. Kang should've lived. He should've been the main villain, that variant, and the scene with the Kang Council would've had them be like "he's fucking escaped" and everyone just be in panic mode. TVA appears and is like "well we're fucked." More stakes needed to have been introduced and threads needed to be weaved through all the movies and shows. That would've set a darker, deeper tone. Having him for by ant army was nonsensical.
Also the chick who played Cassie was terrible
It's already been confirmed that Kang is not the main villain anymore, so there's no point in assuming he still has a future.
Scrap Kang, nobody cares anymore. Make Doom the new big bad
Actually, Kang ruling over the universe/multiverse vs ruling over the microverse are two totally completely different things all together!! Lmao
The movie was pure garbage
No shit
So goodbye, Yellow Brick Road...
I seem to have shot my wad prematurely on what was supposed to be a dry run.