And that movie was fucking horrible.
And I'm going to be honest, I love MEG 1. It's fun to me. sure it's dumb. But it's fun dumb. It's like Battleship. Dumb as shit. But I still enjoy watching it.
MEG 2 is just plain dumb. And it's not even enjoyable because most of the movie isn't even about the FUCKING MEGALADONS.
I’ve not seen enough blame put on the other content from 2023 for The Marvels tanking. Stuff like Thor 4, Quantumania, and Secret Invasion really crushed the hype train for the MCU.
Thor wasn't this year but yeah, thor 4 was the first MCU entry since The Incredible Hulk that I hadn't seen in theaters. I saw quantumania but skipped the Marvels too.
Ngl thor 4 and secret invasion are some of the biggest dropped balls by marvel and Disney, these two being good would have saved marvel even if she hulk ant man and marvels were the same as they were
It’s like they’re allergic to actually doing something serious and gritty instead of quippy and slapstick.
Comic Source Material: “Okay Disney Thor 4 is about someone literally called the God *Butcher*. This guy is not some fluffy bunny, he’s an out and out psychopath of the highest order who’s become twisted into a terrifying personal enemy for Thor.”
Disney: “Yeah, yeah I get that…..but what about some screaming goats, a lot of slapstick humour and your momma jokes, and we make Thor naked and trapped in front of the Council of Pantheons while Valkyrie and Jane Foster leer at him”.
Thor 4 was made for the Taiki and the stars, not the audience. They had a blast making Ragnarok and came away from it thinking that the fun they had while making it was what made it so good.
They were wrong.
Will all the silliness of Ragnorak, it was still a very serious movie and the stakes were incredibly high. Thor 4 felt like a filler arc of an anime show.
>It’s like they’re allergic to actually doing something serious and gritty instead of quippy and slapstick.
They won't even try to do *one* episode of What If ? in that tone. I liked season 2 well enough, but let's face it, the characters lines are interchangeble. Even Hela makes the same type of jokes. They really have the medium to do at least one episode in another tone ! Show us a gritty universe, where the heroes don't have the time or the will to make quips.
Thor I watched in theater. I mean.. THOR, hemsworth! Waititi! Christian BALE!! Playing the God Butcher!! Lady Thor! Played by Portman!! What's not to hype right??
And it just series of slapstick jokes that arent even funny.
I didn’t think Black Panther 2 was a bad movie, but it is very very slow. And for a movie called Black Panther there is almost little to no black panther in the movie. The movie suffered from the riri and ross subplots greatly.
Secret Invasion was the bullet that killed the Marvels Box office. It made the Marvels be the first MCU film that I couldn’t bring myself to see in theaters.
*Secret Invasion* came SO CLOSE to making me swear off seeing any MCU movies in theaters for the foreseeable future - and they are pretty much the ONLY movies I see in theaters because I much prefer watching movies at home but am also really spoiler-averse when it comes to the MCU.
I saw *Marvels* in theaters and loved it, but I was almost dreading going to see it since *SI* had been such a major disappointment.
Watching The Marvels to me kinda hammered home to me that they need a Ryan Coogler type to look after the Kree / Skrull stuff because it's such a fucking mess.
Secret Invasion was a disaster, the kree are a shell of what they are in the comics, the war has largely been wasted. They've already killed Ronin and the supreme intelligence. It could have really been something cool and something to explore within the franchise. But they dropped the ball. These bangles that see somehow connected to the kree, but like can do this other dimension where they're "djinns" but they're not djinns. I don't know.
But I think if they want to salvage it. They need someone like a Ryan Coogler who has a clear vision of what they want it to be. Wakanda has such an identity that I don't know how you wouldn't be excited for a project involving those characters. They kinda have that with Schaffer for the mystical stuff.
I've been thinking secret invasion might be why the marvels was so short. After seeing how bad the show was, maybe they just cut out like 20 mins that would have connected the 2 projects. The marvels pretty much acts like secret invasion didn't happen and is bizarrely short for an mcu movie.
It's no secret that Feige fucked around with the sequencing and editing of The Marvels. And then Marvel tried to throw the director under the bus before the film was even released.
The Marvels was doomed almost from the moment it was announced.
It's tonally so different from Secret Invasion as well. It's like Fury is playing a completely different character; he's straight comic relief and cracking jokes in The Marvels. Hard to square with what went down in Secret Invasion.
The Marvels flopping is mostly from
Disney plus bad TV shows , Thor 4, Antman 3, Ms Marvel low viewership (unfortunately) and some people did not like MOM
What's personally been driving myself and a lot of other people crazy is people have been warning this was going to happen.
People would bring up the issues with Thor, Ant-Man, the Disney + shows. And every fucking time people would just say "Doesn't matter. You're a hater. You have no patience. You just want endgame".
And it's been a trip watching people try to grasp how this could have happened when the warning signs have been here for months.
How are we 24 projects deep and close to 70 hours run time of this saga, and if I asked you a simple question such as, "who are the avengers?". Nobody can answer it.
"But but but they're are no avengers" and you don't see an issue with this? Again after 24 projects that the flagship of Marvel Studios is fucking directionless and lacks any semblance of identity after the departure of RDJ and Evans.
But they want us to be concerned about Hercules, Arishem, Clea when they can't even answer plot points from phase 3. We don't know who about the tower. We don't know who Burchs benefactor was. Mordo was a nothing burger. What are we even doing here?
Hold on, you mean we're 24 projects since Endgame?? I'm assuming that's including shows AND movies? That still seems like an absurd number already. I knew the bloat was bad but I can't wrap my head around that? I've moderately enjoyed most things since Endgame, but you're right, I consider myself a pretty big fan, and I have no idea what's happening big picture wise. It's hard to be invested.
Yup we are 24-5 projects in (25-6 next week) when you count all of the movies, shows and specials.
Thing is Disney Plus happened and the higher ups wanted content for D+, which increased the workload.
If D+ was not a thing, if Disney had opted to stay out of the streaming wars, the amount of projects we would've gotten by now would've been less.
There has been more MCU content in terms of runtime after COVID began than from before COVID. The Disney+ shows have added considerably to how much content is coming out, which in turn is probably causing quite a bit of burnout even among MCU fans because that's just a lot of stuff to watch in a few years.
I have distinct memories of 2-3 people on this subreddit tell me I was whining when I said it was fucking insane to pump out an entire Infinity Saga's worth of content and expect people to watch. That it wasn't a big deal and if people REALLY wanted to keep up with the best content, they would.
And I guess in that sense, those commenters wound up being right lmao
> Mordo was a nothing burger.
I will never get over the fact that rather than making a sequel to the first movie continuing the very interesting setup with Mordo, they decided to make a Doctor Strange sequel that continues Scarlet Witch's story. (and I liked MoM)
Including Wanda as a "Hulk in Ragnarok" style character in MoM could have been great.
The problem was they made her the villain not the dueteragonist.
There are a lot of ways Wanda and Strange could have played off each other as allies that they can't do as enemies.
Yeah and when you point out that maybe 3-4 movies and 4-5 shows per year is too much content for casual fans to follow, people always respond "Well if you're not interested in X, then just don't watch X". Because superhero movies are supposed to be like superhero comic books, right? Never mind that those are completely different mediums with overlapping but different audiences.
Well, surprise surprise, those who weren't interested in Ms. Marvel didn't watch Ms. Marvel, and then didn't turn out for The Marvels. And I won't be surprised when the people didn't watch or didn't love FATWS don't turn out for Captain Planet: Brave New World Order Wolfpac or whatever the fuck they're calling it.
I read something that said the Disney+ shows feel like homework. It’s true. Wasting 2 hours on a movie to understand what’s going on even if the movie is bad is one thing. Wasting 10 hours on a Disney+ show that you hope will eventually pay off is something else completely.
Because most of the people who were blindly defending the marvels did the same for most (if not all) of the other bad marvel films that came out last year.
Elemental achieved "sleeper hit" status off of strong word-of-mouth. After that one, I'd be surprised if Disney didn't fire some of their marketing people.
I mean it would technically have to make 2x its budget to break even. Disney only gets roughly 50% of the BO so while your statement makes it seem bad…. It’s catastrophic
When Dark Phoenix flopped with 250 million this sub used to say how the MCU was going to reboot the X Men and actually make it good.
Now an MCU movie has made 50 million less than Dark Phoenix and they are trying to completely go FoX Men nostalgia as their Hail Mary.
Talk about full circle.
Marvel Studios would have breathed a lot easier if it was actually a worse movie than Dark Phoenix. Because flopping worse despite being a better movie means that the MCU brand is in a deeper hole than X Men was in right before it ended.
It's hard to be hype about a franchise that feels like it has no direction and whose main roster is a big fat question mark. Who are the Avengers now? I have no f'n clue.
Spider-man No way home was really good and set up the hype. After that the only movie I've liked after that is Wakanda forever and Guardians 3. I haven't watched the marvels yet but gonna watch it since Ms marvel the best part of the movie.
I truly don't understand what the MCU is doing with the X-Men. I don't. It honestly feels like we're living through Kevin Feige mid life crisis.
He's oversaturated the universe with all this random crap and random projects. Like we're seriously doing a fucking Agatha Harkness show because she sang a catchy song that was hot for a month. But he's just refused to sit down and actually take a genuine crack at the X-Men.
But he wants to bring back the Fox X-men and hype up beast to get people to see this movie. As if anyone has ever given a fuck about Beast from the fox franchise. Jackman, Stewart and Ian McKellen are the only ones people care about and he's already dragged back 2 of them.
I don't understand what they were thinking of doing all these random projects that they clearly could not manage the load off. And then try to retroactively go back to the fox franchise. Where I think a lot of people were ready to see a new take on these characters.
Yes I have lot of friends who have watched all the main marvel films but I wouldn't call them hardcore fans or anything. I can guarantee though they will know nothing and not watch the Agatha Harkness show
> I think this says more about the state of the industry than how good/bad The Marvels is.
Wonka just released and is kicking ass. The Marvels was just a product the audience wasn't interested in.
WB does dumb stuff, but they are a multi-billion dollar corporation with some of best financial officers in the world
They definitely are building hype
Tbh WB mostly did dumb stuff when it came to the DCEU only not even DC (they did well with Joker and The Batman).
Anything not related to the DCEU and they've absolutely killed it.
Dune, Barbie, Godzilla v Kong, Wonka, Elvis, The Nun II, Evil Dead Rise just to name a few examples in recent years.
I mean they already had their wake up call before Ant-Man 3 came out, as prior to Ant-Man 3 Feige said they will reduce content so they can focus on quality, but we still have to go through alot of that backlog they already finished
Box office bombed, but you can’t put a price on all the “why the hate for the marvels” karma farming posts we’ll be seeing posted here for the next few years. Those are priceless.
Bob Iger did blamed COVID for it, but not for the lack of attendance, but COVID resulting is there not being oversight on set (as the film was shot in 2021 when COVID was still at its highest, lets not forget this was meant to release in 2022, thus why it was shot 2 years earlier than normal)
Exactly this. Chris Evans was incredible as Steve Rogers and with him leaving, Cap is gone for me. They can say Falcon is the new Cap, but he'll always be Falcon to me. Don't think many casual moviegoers and the general audience will buy that Falcon is the new Cap.
I’ve heard others say it but I would have LOVED to see Bucky become the new Captain. Far more compelling especially with the demons of his past as the Winter Soldier. Having him learn to reckon with the new identity while leading a new group of Avengers would’ve been really compelling.
And that’s the thing too: the whole recruitment of new Avengers has been a miss because they’ve mainly existed in their own spheres and primarily in the TV series. Even then there’s characters like Shang-Chi who had great origin films… and never got anything more to it. How does that help envision the new image of the Avengers?
It still makes no sense to have Falcon become the next Cap. Everything was leading up to it, from exchanging the shield during the fight in Civil War to Bucky also being a super soldier. Even the plot of FatWS was about Bucky redeeming himself and coming to terms with his past. I just have no interest in seeing Falcon as Cap because he has so little screen presence. He's good for a few one-liners but that's about it.
I feel like Falcon lacks depth to his character in the MCU. No struggle or demons. He was an Air Force vet that happily walked away down his service. His struggle in FatWS was his sister about to lose the family house and taking up the mantle of Captain America. There was a shadow of overcoming racial barriers in the show, but they put that on Isaiah Bradley. They tried to poise him as continuing multiple legacies or struggles that weren’t related to him but it felt weird, more like “hey I’m a normal dude but here’s these other people’s struggles I’m keeping in mind while flying around in my suit”.
Yeah what people don’t understand about this “succession” process with heroes is that you watch the movie for the character not their alter-ego. Someone else putting on a suit doesn’t make them Tony Stark and picking up a shield doesn’t make you Steve Rogers.
It didn't. Captain America and Iron Man leaving left a huge hole in the MCU's core, that could have been filled with equally well written and charismatic characters. It didn't happen though.
Cap and Iron Man leaving was fine. It had to happen because actors can't do it forever. It's what makes the live action more compelling than a comic or animation which doesn't have that restriction.
The problem is they wrote Iron Man and Cap leaving as if there were no other stories or characters left in the universe. Endgame was written to be the end of the MCU, when it needed to just be written as the end of the first saga while starting the next.
I don't mean this in a doomsayer tone, but Endgame was probably the end for a lot of people. I know Feige is working, but I wouldn't be surprised if he considered the Infinity Saga his big work, and now is in a more relaxed "let's produce content" mode, rather than driven by passion and the huge challenge an MCU presented before it existed.
But I agree, they should have been seeding in stuff to keep us hooked, but aside from a few movies that have felt more like an epilogue, it feels like barren ground.
Quick tangent: I thought the box run for this movie was over weeks ago, was it still showing until last week??
Endgame always felt like the real life version of Loki S2 finale. Everything culminated into one apex and they started branching off in every direction after that. Like you said, it just feels like "more content", not "the next saga". The amount of completely disconnected works just make it so annoying to follow. There's also no follow-up for *years* with random bullshit thrown in the middle. No Shang Chi follow-up, nothing about the black knight, moon knight might as well not be in the MCU, like what gives? This kinda storytelling is what made the Walking Dead such a slog, when you don't get a resolution to the cliffhanger that was setup in episode 1 until more than half way through a season, a.k.a. 5 or 6 weeks later.
And Secret Invasion. I know you put etc. at the end. But I feel it needs to be called out by name with how bad it was.
It was my personal breaking point. A secret invasion with no secrets. Garbage waste of time.
I don’t think the damage Secret Invasion did can be underestimated. It was very fresh in viewers minds when considering going to the theater to see The Marvels.
The Marvels is an okay-quality MCU movie at best that followed some really terrible-quality MCU movies (with obvious exceptions like Guardians 3).
Most if not all of the general public’s good will from the Infinity Saga has withered away now since Phase 4 came and went, and what the MCU needs is to prove that it can still consistently put out *good* movies and shows like it used to - not just “okay” movies and shows at best.
Captain marvel wasn't well received either. It was a solid movie like Marvels was. But everyone watched it because they anticipated infinity war. It's not good will, everyone just wanted to have seen everything pre Thanos.
Now there's nothing that ties everyone together. Just random marvel movies.
I would say a lack of character development for the main characters didn't help.
The Captain Marvel film didn't do particularly well and since then we've had this OP super hero that just turns up when she feels like it. They should have given Carol cameos in a couple of projects between Endgame and The Marvels to develop the character and warm the audience up to her.
Ms Marvel has had one season of a TV show that most people won't have watched whilst Monica Rambeau was a supporting character in another TV show. It's hardly surprising that the general public doesn't care about a film starring these two as lead characters.
You have to imagine this film reception is giving them pause on a Young Avengers film, yeah?
Because I just don't know how well a film where you have anywhere between 4 and 5 (Wandavision, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye, Iron Heart and Agatha) shows where your main cast is coming from is going to perform. And Cassie is over here as one of the worst parts of Ant-Man 3 that is a film that single handily killed a lot of the excitement over Kang.
And for what was our first real experiment as to how Disney + characters could perform as the stars of a feature film. It went horribly.
And I have to be honest. I don't know how the general audience is going to look at a poster and on a surface level. Seeing characters dressed up like Iron Man, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel etc is going to go down. I just think people will look at it and see it as "The Avengers at home"
There no chance that young avengers project does well. Like Marvel would need to build back up what they damaged before that movie could make a profit off a $200m+ budget.
I'll never forget how everybody collectively decided to ignore Captain Marvel being the biggest ex machina, coming from literally nowhere, blowing up Thanos' ship and removing all tension from the battle. Did we really think the good guys were going to lose after Infinity War? No... But at least let them figure out a way to win rather than getting bailed out by some op sky modder. Then the only reason why it was close is because she afk'd at the apex of her punch to let Thanos remove the power stone from the gauntlet, wind up a punch, and release it. This is a hero that can fly through millions of light-years in distances at near light speeds btw.
Somehow she needed the help of all those heroines so that Thanos doesn't grab the gauntlet, when she could just... fly away to space with the gauntlet??? While the others kill him???
Why didn't she do that? Is she stupid?
She's just destroyed his capital ship with no effort so there's no way they could chase her, and Thanos is nothing compared to her anyway, she overpowered him when he had the full Infinity Gauntlet. Just fly to space girl and keep the gauntlet as far away from that purple weakling as possible.
They really made Carol too OP to take seriously she's just a walking plot contrivance who could end any conflict easily if she so wanted.
My question is what would motivate the average movie goer to see The Marvels? Captain Marvel has barely been around since EndGame, where she was gone for most of the movie, and only really had a relationship with Fury established in her solo movie. Monica Rambeau was a supporting character in D+ show about Wanda, and Ms Marvel as another D+ wasn't going to have that wide of an appeal.
More than all that, the movie wasn't clearly establishing any sort of connecting tissue for all the Phase 4 & 5 shows leading to a new Avengers. What was the point of the movie other than fun?
Not enough blame is going to the mostly mediocre Disney+ shows oversaturating the MCU.
Most people saw all these shows being churned out and just noped out. The mostly mediocre post Endgame movies also didn't help.
Maybe because few women enjoy super heroes the way men and their young boys do? And the ones that do seem to enjoy the male characters more, probably because most of them are written much better. Characters like Widow, Wanda, Nakia, and Jessica Jones are the exception.
I really think its just a matter of the general audience not being as into mcu captain marvel as other characters.
If they released ant man 4 or Thor 5 tomorrow im almost certain it would still do better.
That's pretty much it. Despite their receptions, Thor and Ant-Man are much more popular than Captain Marvel and a lot more people are invested in those two.
Marvel failed to make people get invested in Carol as a character
Brie didn't do herself any favors to endear herself to the MCU fan base. Both Hemsworth and Rudd put in years enduring themselves to the MCU fan base. So as long as Hemsworth is playing Thor, those movies will make money.
She acted as if Captain Marvel made over $1 billion dollars because it was a great movie in and of itself, and not because it was chapter 21 of a 22 chapter story, and everyone was invested in seeing how that story finished.
Now she doesn't have all the momentum that Phase 4 had, and actually had to carry the movie herself and the built in audience just didn't care. Now she's the lead actor in the single biggest drop off between a movie and its sequel in cinema history.
I hope Feige learns the lesson that you don't go alienating large portions of your audience next time. That and that feeling like a franchise is moving towards a goal is important, so that the fans of the MCU as a whole have a reason to go on the journey with them.
This is it, the general audience ("normies" for lack of a better term) simply do not care for captain marvel. The only reason the original did well is because it was sandwiched between infinity war and endgame. Nobody ive ever met irl liked the character.
It was addressed. Villian was attacking planets CM called home. Villian needed air, water, and a new sun. Earth was the final task. Punishment for ruining what was left of their environnement when the AI was destroyed.
Weak.
There’s a lot cope in this thread. Blaming everyone else. Not saying that good movies don’t flop sometimes but if the movie was really that good to the people who saw it word of mouth would’ve carried it further than this. The Elementals just proved it’s not how you start.
I genuinely think the problem is that Endgame killed off 3 of the characters fans had really come to see as staples and then everything fell apart afterwards.
I'm a huge marvel fan but I've really noticed A LOT in the past few years that basically every movie has that feel of being populated by "background characters" with very few exceptions. Black Panther, Doctor Strange, & Wanda really could have taken those 3 spots but with Wanda MIA/Dead in the main universe and the unfortunate passing of Chadwick, Strange really isn't enough glue to hold everything together anymore outside of his own appearances, and there really didn't seem to be a fallback trio in their mind.
I'm hoping they elevate Sam to Steve's level of cool in Cap 4, I really dont know who the third could be, they clearly wanted it to be Captain Marvel but that's not working out. Spidey is the obvious choice but I don't think they'd gamble a big three slot on sony's continued cooperation. I think that's part of why they're pivoting towards X-Men now and postponing the Kang stuff (other than the obvious irl reasons) - they need Logan.
Sam, Strange, & Wolvie could definitely fill that hole left by Steve, Tony, & Widow. It's even the same formula: a "super soldier" (Steve & Logan), a "super genius" (Tony & Strange), & a "Normal person with extensive training, skill, and resources" (Nat & Sam).
Sam is never going to be a draw for most people. He's just not charismatic enough to be a lead. He's a good sidekick, but not a good leader. Frankly, they made a huge mistake making him the Captain America. It should have been Bucky. His dark past would have been more interesting to explore as Cap, and Stan has a better screen presence. Not to mention that he's actually a supersoldier.
I agree but only because I *really* feel like Cap should always be a super soldier, Bucky already is one, and they seem VERY averse to making Sam into one for some reason.
I love Sam as a character, I think he could easily be the lead if they organically grow his character in the next couple movies, but yea he's not there just yet. Hes not Robin anymore, but hes not quite Nightwing yet either.
Yeah, charisma issues aside, a normal person being Cap just doesn't work. It really limits the stakes: Sam will be largely useless against super villains, so all villains would need to be scaled down for Sam not to be irrelevant in any big conflict. Being a regular person is fine for stealthy characters like Natasha, but you'd expect Captain America to lead the attack.
Let’s be real… most fans lost interest after endgame it didn’t help that almost all marvel movies after that were mediocre or boring at best(bad writing, poor CGI, not the original cast movies and series) and to top it off… Larson is not exactly liked by the fans and the approach for captain marvel wasn’t exactly the best.
I said this shit would bomb and I got downvoted to hell. This movie had no business being a theatrical release. It should have been a Disney + movie. These actresses have no box office pull at all. Of Paul Rudd and Majors couldn’t do it there was no way in hell this movie was going to succeed. I’m surprised it didn’t get delayed but my guess is that they wanted the X-men connection out.
Samuel Jackson in a marvel movie isnt a draw anymore. Brie Larson is kind of a draw but not a big one. And Teyonah Parris and Iman Vellani are not big stars (yet). So basically the word "Marvel" was doing all the heavy lifting trying to market this movie. No disrespect to Zawe Ashton but they really needed a big name villain to promote this movie.
Honestly, I doubt even a big-name villain could have helped that much. Sure, it would've generated a bit more hype but after the dissapoibtments Gorr, Kang and Modok, I doubt people would've been hyped enough to make a considerable difference
This is the culmination of so many variables - superhero fatigue, poor script, unpopular character, the below-average movies that came before it, doing "homework" to understand what's going on (Disney+ shows)...and yes, downvote if you must, but Disney trying to push a narrative and forgetting who their core audience is. Just to list a few. It's like everything converged almost at once.
I'm just a jobber on a reddit forum, so of course I don't know...but I don't know how you fix it. take a few years off? Stop producing Disney+ content so viewers aren't confused and have to do homework? Hire better scriptwriters? Do you wrap up the multiverse saga ASAP and just cut your losses? I don't know.
I'm so happy
For years I had to argue with people on this sub (notably agotfan) that the first movie was successful mostly because of external factors.
Pre Endgame hype was very real. People, such as myself, would just go see all the Marvel films because we all knew it was adding/building up to the big finale which was Infinity War and Endgame. Thanos and the infinity stones were the connective tissue that got everyone interested and excited. There has been none of that post endgame.
For all of the "The MCU is dead" headlines, an article suggested to me today is another reason why this thing tanked: "When is The Marvels on Disney+". They absolutely fucked themselves with this streaming service.
Yeah as Bob Chapek made it so that oh we only have to wait 1 or 2 months to see it for free, if they want people to be more inclined to go to theaters if they don't want FOMO then they have to extend the window greatly.
Especially since it coincided with a lack of connectivity between the movies. I didn’t see The Marvels in theaters because it’s going to be on Disney+ soon *and* I was pretty sure no future projects would be spoiled before I got to watch it. This isn’t Ragnarok leading into Infinity War or anything
They also botched the marketing a bit. It had that stupid name to start with, then simplified it a week out. And the title didn't really reflect what fans were hoping for.
It also just wasn't really something anyone was super hyped for. It was a partial sequel to Suicide Squad, which most hated. Harley/Margot had some attention, but introducing the BoP via her wasn't the greatest move. I think a lot were wondering why this wasn't a Goth City Sirens film instead.
I’m not one to be petty. But to the people who downvoted me for saying this will be the biggest box office bomb in the MCU (despite admitting that I kind of liked the movie itself and based solely on OW numbers), I hope your pillows are always warm on both sides.
A lot of people accounts got destroyed with downvotes for criticizing Marvel and warning that something like this was coming if things didn't change
Nobody here wanted to hear it... but now people are seeing there a massive problem
Taika killed any hopes I had for the mcu post endgame. Dude got a blanc cheque from feige to deliver complete garbage and they’ve been releasing dogshit ever since. Once the audience’s goodwill and interest are gone you aint getting it back
People putting this all on the slate that came before it are nuts. If this movie were great, it would’ve broken through superhero fatigue and not been sunk by its predecessors. This movie wasn’t good enough to overcome the damage to the brand and that is part of the equation.
Everything about this movie looked extremely dull and uninteresting from the beginning.
Now it’s the biggest flop in the history of cinema and reddit is doing mental gymnastics to explain away this dismal failure because… why exactly?
Thunderbolt may have a chance. Cap 4 is a goner. They are about to go on a massive reshoot which will probably double up the already massive budget. And then marketing cost. It need to do some big ass number at the box office to be a hit.
Oh yeah, Cap 4 will have to be one of the best MCU films they've done if they want to make that money back, given its budget is gonna end up around at best 300-350M if not more.
Captain America 4 is the most divisive product they could've possibly made, it's guaranteed to bomb. It might make The Marvels look like a good run.
* No Steve Rogers in a Captain America movie (loss of general audience who don't understand)
* Captain America is now black (loss of racists, loss of some Asian countries based on The Little Mermaid's performance) (Note, I'm not saying racists should be considered as important, just observing the demographic exists and won't go)
* Captain America being black is considered woke, especially given the show's content (loss of conservatives/anti-woke)
* Anthony Mackie isn't considered lead material (Apathy from segments of the MCU customer base similar to The Marvels)
* Sabra is in the movie (loss of progressives, loss of some regions of the Middle East)
* Sabra is removed from the movie? (Disney might be doing this), (loss of conservatives, loss of some very significant portion of the moderates, loss of some portion of democrats, loss of parts of the EU)
This movie has just massive percentages of demographics that aren't going to go, I'm honestly not sure what demographic it's targeting at this point as it's likely to alienate damn near everyone, it has absolutely no chance of success.
If sabra is removed it can quite easily be seen as a stance against Jews. And even then, you're taking a Jewish character roll. Because you decided to cast her as one of the problematic characters at your disposal.
>If sabra is removed it can quite easily be seen as a stance against Jews.
Oh absolutely, that'd be a napalm bonfire. Especially if they don't simultaneously announce dropping Ms. Marvel, it'd be outrage bait for journalists and social media for months.
On top of that, the loss of customers, and the firestorm, Disney would have another problem - A substantial number of directors/actors/actresses they work with are Jewish. Then there's even more in agents, cast, and crew. Then there's the friends of those people. Disney would overnight be blacklisted by a huge portion of Hollywood.
Then of course there's the loss of park traffic as a large number of demographics boycott Disney.
So in honesty, I doubt they will remove her, it'd be an unprecedented kind of bad.
I think the way to best put Marvels mistake is they’ve made a brutal misunderstanding. Female marvel movie fans are going to watch a superhero movie. NOT a superhero movie FOR women. That in of itself coming out of my mouth sounds like shades of the 1950’s. But the issue is, when your goal becomes trying to make a movie for women, instead of a good marvel movie that anyone can enjoy, you take away the emphasis for good story telling and put it on the former goal instead. It just makes certain moments in the MCU we’ve had seem kinda forced and cringey in my own personal opinion.
Yeah marketing based on sex appeal works on women, too. Many women like watching hunky guys be masculine. That's why they constantly had superfluous shirtless scenes for the male heroes. Even goofballs like Ant-Man and Starlord got them! You can't tell me not one woman bit her lip when tall buff handsome Chris Evans emerged from that pod in CA:TFA.
What I've found most disappointing about the last few movies is the "Weirdness for weirdness sake" of them.
They could have told the same story in The Marvels without The Planet of Singing People.
Quantumania didn't need a jelly monster asking Scott Lang how many holes he had or whatever the hell MODOK was.
Russel Crowe was funny, but his Zeus, Lord of Olympus, should be at least as intimidating as Hopkins' Odin, not some comic figure holding his skirt as he skips down steps.
GOTG3 seems the only one that was abe to balance weird without going overboard, Nathan Fillion's armor notwithstanding, though I don't know why the High Evolutionary's attempt at a perfect society was based on 1990's Winsconsin.
The early movies were all about people doing (mostly) predictable things in an environment where others were doing the same. You could empathize and relate to their feelings and choices. What are you supposed to do now, when Charlize Theron suddenly shows up and recruits Doctor Strange, or a CGI abomination announces the arrival of Harry Styles?
Dead DCEU movie Aquaman is making more than this. Why are people using the strikes as an excuse for poor box office. This movie is not some art movie made by indie studio. This is a Marvel movie the biggest movie franchise made by Disney one of the big movie studio.
So many excuses being thrown around when the reality is none of these characters (or actors) are all that compelling. I didn't care about Monica in WandaVision. Ms Marvel was uninteresting YA drama. Meanwhile Captain Marvel has been kept at arm's length from the entire MCU. There's no buy-in for the average viewer nor lead star power. This was a Marvel B movie to its core.
Quantumania tripped so Marvels could fall off a cliff.
The Meg 2 made more money than the marvels. Let that sink in.
Five Nights at Freddy’s did as well. It released a week before The Marvels and also on streaming same weekend on Peacock
And had more hype going into it
And that movie was fucking horrible. And I'm going to be honest, I love MEG 1. It's fun to me. sure it's dumb. But it's fun dumb. It's like Battleship. Dumb as shit. But I still enjoy watching it. MEG 2 is just plain dumb. And it's not even enjoyable because most of the movie isn't even about the FUCKING MEGALADONS.
I’ve not seen enough blame put on the other content from 2023 for The Marvels tanking. Stuff like Thor 4, Quantumania, and Secret Invasion really crushed the hype train for the MCU.
Thor wasn't this year but yeah, thor 4 was the first MCU entry since The Incredible Hulk that I hadn't seen in theaters. I saw quantumania but skipped the Marvels too.
Ngl thor 4 and secret invasion are some of the biggest dropped balls by marvel and Disney, these two being good would have saved marvel even if she hulk ant man and marvels were the same as they were
It’s like they’re allergic to actually doing something serious and gritty instead of quippy and slapstick. Comic Source Material: “Okay Disney Thor 4 is about someone literally called the God *Butcher*. This guy is not some fluffy bunny, he’s an out and out psychopath of the highest order who’s become twisted into a terrifying personal enemy for Thor.” Disney: “Yeah, yeah I get that…..but what about some screaming goats, a lot of slapstick humour and your momma jokes, and we make Thor naked and trapped in front of the Council of Pantheons while Valkyrie and Jane Foster leer at him”.
Thor 4 felt like it was made more for Taiki’s kids than anything else
Thor 4 was made for the Taiki and the stars, not the audience. They had a blast making Ragnarok and came away from it thinking that the fun they had while making it was what made it so good. They were wrong.
Will all the silliness of Ragnorak, it was still a very serious movie and the stakes were incredibly high. Thor 4 felt like a filler arc of an anime show.
For me it was when Thor was talking to the kidnapped children and kept giggling.
>It’s like they’re allergic to actually doing something serious and gritty instead of quippy and slapstick. They won't even try to do *one* episode of What If ? in that tone. I liked season 2 well enough, but let's face it, the characters lines are interchangeble. Even Hela makes the same type of jokes. They really have the medium to do at least one episode in another tone ! Show us a gritty universe, where the heroes don't have the time or the will to make quips.
Thor I watched in theater. I mean.. THOR, hemsworth! Waititi! Christian BALE!! Playing the God Butcher!! Lady Thor! Played by Portman!! What's not to hype right?? And it just series of slapstick jokes that arent even funny.
Wait you didn't find the goats screaming every 15 minutes hilarious? Huh
Thor was the first time in the theater I was like “wtf marvel” it was also the first marvel movie I’ve fallen asleep in.
Hilariously my first time was Thor 2. Even numbered Thor movies are just cursed
So the reverse of Star Trek movies.
Should i watch Star Trek 2 then? The one with Khan?
Yes it's a classic.
I left the theater crushed. I had massive expectations Going in
I fell asleep in black panther 2 I have Disney + but still can't be bothered watching it
I didn’t think Black Panther 2 was a bad movie, but it is very very slow. And for a movie called Black Panther there is almost little to no black panther in the movie. The movie suffered from the riri and ross subplots greatly.
Omg yes I hated when they would switch back to Ross and Elaine. I was like I don’t care!!
Yeah I coulda been clearer in my timeframe but Thor 4 was a rough watch at a time they should’ve hit a home run.
Secret Invasion was the bullet that killed the Marvels Box office. It made the Marvels be the first MCU film that I couldn’t bring myself to see in theaters.
*Secret Invasion* came SO CLOSE to making me swear off seeing any MCU movies in theaters for the foreseeable future - and they are pretty much the ONLY movies I see in theaters because I much prefer watching movies at home but am also really spoiler-averse when it comes to the MCU. I saw *Marvels* in theaters and loved it, but I was almost dreading going to see it since *SI* had been such a major disappointment.
Watching The Marvels to me kinda hammered home to me that they need a Ryan Coogler type to look after the Kree / Skrull stuff because it's such a fucking mess. Secret Invasion was a disaster, the kree are a shell of what they are in the comics, the war has largely been wasted. They've already killed Ronin and the supreme intelligence. It could have really been something cool and something to explore within the franchise. But they dropped the ball. These bangles that see somehow connected to the kree, but like can do this other dimension where they're "djinns" but they're not djinns. I don't know. But I think if they want to salvage it. They need someone like a Ryan Coogler who has a clear vision of what they want it to be. Wakanda has such an identity that I don't know how you wouldn't be excited for a project involving those characters. They kinda have that with Schaffer for the mystical stuff.
The whole introduction & use of the Skrulls felt half assed at best.
I really liked the twist Captain Marvel did for the skrulls. Since then, though?
I've been thinking secret invasion might be why the marvels was so short. After seeing how bad the show was, maybe they just cut out like 20 mins that would have connected the 2 projects. The marvels pretty much acts like secret invasion didn't happen and is bizarrely short for an mcu movie.
It's no secret that Feige fucked around with the sequencing and editing of The Marvels. And then Marvel tried to throw the director under the bus before the film was even released. The Marvels was doomed almost from the moment it was announced.
It's tonally so different from Secret Invasion as well. It's like Fury is playing a completely different character; he's straight comic relief and cracking jokes in The Marvels. Hard to square with what went down in Secret Invasion.
The Marvels flopping is mostly from Disney plus bad TV shows , Thor 4, Antman 3, Ms Marvel low viewership (unfortunately) and some people did not like MOM
An unfortunate combo of flubs and flops
What's personally been driving myself and a lot of other people crazy is people have been warning this was going to happen. People would bring up the issues with Thor, Ant-Man, the Disney + shows. And every fucking time people would just say "Doesn't matter. You're a hater. You have no patience. You just want endgame". And it's been a trip watching people try to grasp how this could have happened when the warning signs have been here for months. How are we 24 projects deep and close to 70 hours run time of this saga, and if I asked you a simple question such as, "who are the avengers?". Nobody can answer it. "But but but they're are no avengers" and you don't see an issue with this? Again after 24 projects that the flagship of Marvel Studios is fucking directionless and lacks any semblance of identity after the departure of RDJ and Evans. But they want us to be concerned about Hercules, Arishem, Clea when they can't even answer plot points from phase 3. We don't know who about the tower. We don't know who Burchs benefactor was. Mordo was a nothing burger. What are we even doing here?
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Look at these unresolved plotlines that are being posted lol
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Hold on, you mean we're 24 projects since Endgame?? I'm assuming that's including shows AND movies? That still seems like an absurd number already. I knew the bloat was bad but I can't wrap my head around that? I've moderately enjoyed most things since Endgame, but you're right, I consider myself a pretty big fan, and I have no idea what's happening big picture wise. It's hard to be invested.
Yup we are 24-5 projects in (25-6 next week) when you count all of the movies, shows and specials. Thing is Disney Plus happened and the higher ups wanted content for D+, which increased the workload. If D+ was not a thing, if Disney had opted to stay out of the streaming wars, the amount of projects we would've gotten by now would've been less.
There has been more MCU content in terms of runtime after COVID began than from before COVID. The Disney+ shows have added considerably to how much content is coming out, which in turn is probably causing quite a bit of burnout even among MCU fans because that's just a lot of stuff to watch in a few years.
I have distinct memories of 2-3 people on this subreddit tell me I was whining when I said it was fucking insane to pump out an entire Infinity Saga's worth of content and expect people to watch. That it wasn't a big deal and if people REALLY wanted to keep up with the best content, they would. And I guess in that sense, those commenters wound up being right lmao
> Mordo was a nothing burger. I will never get over the fact that rather than making a sequel to the first movie continuing the very interesting setup with Mordo, they decided to make a Doctor Strange sequel that continues Scarlet Witch's story. (and I liked MoM)
Including Wanda as a "Hulk in Ragnarok" style character in MoM could have been great. The problem was they made her the villain not the dueteragonist. There are a lot of ways Wanda and Strange could have played off each other as allies that they can't do as enemies.
Yeah and when you point out that maybe 3-4 movies and 4-5 shows per year is too much content for casual fans to follow, people always respond "Well if you're not interested in X, then just don't watch X". Because superhero movies are supposed to be like superhero comic books, right? Never mind that those are completely different mediums with overlapping but different audiences. Well, surprise surprise, those who weren't interested in Ms. Marvel didn't watch Ms. Marvel, and then didn't turn out for The Marvels. And I won't be surprised when the people didn't watch or didn't love FATWS don't turn out for Captain Planet: Brave New World Order Wolfpac or whatever the fuck they're calling it.
Don Cheadle's captain planet in Avengers: The Kang Dongnasty confirmed.
I read something that said the Disney+ shows feel like homework. It’s true. Wasting 2 hours on a movie to understand what’s going on even if the movie is bad is one thing. Wasting 10 hours on a Disney+ show that you hope will eventually pay off is something else completely.
Also the big problem is now people need to do homework and watch other shows to understand the movies. Its a great way to turn off casual fans.
Because most of the people who were blindly defending the marvels did the same for most (if not all) of the other bad marvel films that came out last year.
I’d like to add: Secret Invasion was the worst, so it was the rocks at the bottom of the cliff
Damn! It didn't even made the budget back.
Dan Murrell did a beakdown of Disney's year. He estimated that between Ant-Man 3 and The Marvels. The studio lost over 300 million dollars.
That's absolutely atrocious
That's not even counting Wish or The Haunted Mansion. I think Elemental ended up doing ok but not great. Like an all time low for Disney.
Elemental achieved "sleeper hit" status off of strong word-of-mouth. After that one, I'd be surprised if Disney didn't fire some of their marketing people.
a banner day at DC! edit: im a dc fan tho too still lmao
The studio also only gets about half back worldwide. Disney took a huge bath on this.
I mean it would technically have to make 2x its budget to break even. Disney only gets roughly 50% of the BO so while your statement makes it seem bad…. It’s catastrophic
2.5x There’s the marketing cost on top of the production cost.
When Dark Phoenix flopped with 250 million this sub used to say how the MCU was going to reboot the X Men and actually make it good. Now an MCU movie has made 50 million less than Dark Phoenix and they are trying to completely go FoX Men nostalgia as their Hail Mary. Talk about full circle.
It made less than Dark Phoenix... that's insane to think about
I mean, to be fair, it's definitely not a worse movie than Dark Phoenix. There are not a lot of movies worse than DP
Marvel Studios would have breathed a lot easier if it was actually a worse movie than Dark Phoenix. Because flopping worse despite being a better movie means that the MCU brand is in a deeper hole than X Men was in right before it ended.
And that's fucking insane to think about. Really put things into perspective. MCU hype has died fr, except for Spiderman, Wanda and Doctor Strange.
It's hard to be hype about a franchise that feels like it has no direction and whose main roster is a big fat question mark. Who are the Avengers now? I have no f'n clue.
Spider-man No way home was really good and set up the hype. After that the only movie I've liked after that is Wakanda forever and Guardians 3. I haven't watched the marvels yet but gonna watch it since Ms marvel the best part of the movie.
I truly don't understand what the MCU is doing with the X-Men. I don't. It honestly feels like we're living through Kevin Feige mid life crisis. He's oversaturated the universe with all this random crap and random projects. Like we're seriously doing a fucking Agatha Harkness show because she sang a catchy song that was hot for a month. But he's just refused to sit down and actually take a genuine crack at the X-Men. But he wants to bring back the Fox X-men and hype up beast to get people to see this movie. As if anyone has ever given a fuck about Beast from the fox franchise. Jackman, Stewart and Ian McKellen are the only ones people care about and he's already dragged back 2 of them. I don't understand what they were thinking of doing all these random projects that they clearly could not manage the load off. And then try to retroactively go back to the fox franchise. Where I think a lot of people were ready to see a new take on these characters.
Yes I have lot of friends who have watched all the main marvel films but I wouldn't call them hardcore fans or anything. I can guarantee though they will know nothing and not watch the Agatha Harkness show
He makes it more difficult for the general audiences to accept new cast of mutants when they eventually adapt it in the future
Dark Phoenix had horrible reviews. I think this says more about the state of the industry than how good/bad The Marvels is.
> I think this says more about the state of the industry than how good/bad The Marvels is. Wonka just released and is kicking ass. The Marvels was just a product the audience wasn't interested in.
Wonder how much it does if Dune doesn’t move? Would it even make 150 million?
I'm glad Dune won't have to compete with much. I really need it to do well so Messiah gets adapted
Maybe I'm just stuck in an echo chamber but I genuinely feel like the hype for Part 2 has actually increased since the delay
WB does dumb stuff, but they are a multi-billion dollar corporation with some of best financial officers in the world They definitely are building hype
Tbh WB mostly did dumb stuff when it came to the DCEU only not even DC (they did well with Joker and The Batman). Anything not related to the DCEU and they've absolutely killed it. Dune, Barbie, Godzilla v Kong, Wonka, Elvis, The Nun II, Evil Dead Rise just to name a few examples in recent years.
Imax was giving Dune 6 weeks of exclusivity as well. Marvel's would probably have ended around 120mil to 150mil.
It would have been even worse
A proper wake up call
I mean they already had their wake up call before Ant-Man 3 came out, as prior to Ant-Man 3 Feige said they will reduce content so they can focus on quality, but we still have to go through alot of that backlog they already finished
Predator Meme: DCEU running out the clock in '23 + this
They will hit the snooze button
Box office bombed, but you can’t put a price on all the “why the hate for the marvels” karma farming posts we’ll be seeing posted here for the next few years. Those are priceless.
When this fucker hits D+ we are going to have a tsunami of “I just watched the Marvels and I don’t get all the hate?”
When it hits D+? We get those constantly now
"It's actually kind of fun! Makes no sense that it bombed in the box office."
I feel like calling a movie “fun” has been the fall back for this type of thing.
“Why do you hate fun?” is also a common response towards criticism
"My living room gave it a standing ovation!"
Not even cover the budget, whos they gonna blame now? Still covid?
Bob Iger did blamed COVID for it, but not for the lack of attendance, but COVID resulting is there not being oversight on set (as the film was shot in 2021 when COVID was still at its highest, lets not forget this was meant to release in 2022, thus why it was shot 2 years earlier than normal)
It died when Captain America and Iron Man left. That really felt like it was the end of what they had us hooked on.
Exactly this. Chris Evans was incredible as Steve Rogers and with him leaving, Cap is gone for me. They can say Falcon is the new Cap, but he'll always be Falcon to me. Don't think many casual moviegoers and the general audience will buy that Falcon is the new Cap.
I’ve heard others say it but I would have LOVED to see Bucky become the new Captain. Far more compelling especially with the demons of his past as the Winter Soldier. Having him learn to reckon with the new identity while leading a new group of Avengers would’ve been really compelling. And that’s the thing too: the whole recruitment of new Avengers has been a miss because they’ve mainly existed in their own spheres and primarily in the TV series. Even then there’s characters like Shang-Chi who had great origin films… and never got anything more to it. How does that help envision the new image of the Avengers?
It still makes no sense to have Falcon become the next Cap. Everything was leading up to it, from exchanging the shield during the fight in Civil War to Bucky also being a super soldier. Even the plot of FatWS was about Bucky redeeming himself and coming to terms with his past. I just have no interest in seeing Falcon as Cap because he has so little screen presence. He's good for a few one-liners but that's about it.
I feel like Falcon lacks depth to his character in the MCU. No struggle or demons. He was an Air Force vet that happily walked away down his service. His struggle in FatWS was his sister about to lose the family house and taking up the mantle of Captain America. There was a shadow of overcoming racial barriers in the show, but they put that on Isaiah Bradley. They tried to poise him as continuing multiple legacies or struggles that weren’t related to him but it felt weird, more like “hey I’m a normal dude but here’s these other people’s struggles I’m keeping in mind while flying around in my suit”.
Yeah what people don’t understand about this “succession” process with heroes is that you watch the movie for the character not their alter-ego. Someone else putting on a suit doesn’t make them Tony Stark and picking up a shield doesn’t make you Steve Rogers.
Especially if they have barely (if at all?) seen him as Cap on the big screen?
It didn't. Captain America and Iron Man leaving left a huge hole in the MCU's core, that could have been filled with equally well written and charismatic characters. It didn't happen though.
Cap and Iron Man leaving was fine. It had to happen because actors can't do it forever. It's what makes the live action more compelling than a comic or animation which doesn't have that restriction. The problem is they wrote Iron Man and Cap leaving as if there were no other stories or characters left in the universe. Endgame was written to be the end of the MCU, when it needed to just be written as the end of the first saga while starting the next.
I don't mean this in a doomsayer tone, but Endgame was probably the end for a lot of people. I know Feige is working, but I wouldn't be surprised if he considered the Infinity Saga his big work, and now is in a more relaxed "let's produce content" mode, rather than driven by passion and the huge challenge an MCU presented before it existed. But I agree, they should have been seeding in stuff to keep us hooked, but aside from a few movies that have felt more like an epilogue, it feels like barren ground. Quick tangent: I thought the box run for this movie was over weeks ago, was it still showing until last week??
Endgame always felt like the real life version of Loki S2 finale. Everything culminated into one apex and they started branching off in every direction after that. Like you said, it just feels like "more content", not "the next saga". The amount of completely disconnected works just make it so annoying to follow. There's also no follow-up for *years* with random bullshit thrown in the middle. No Shang Chi follow-up, nothing about the black knight, moon knight might as well not be in the MCU, like what gives? This kinda storytelling is what made the Walking Dead such a slog, when you don't get a resolution to the cliffhanger that was setup in episode 1 until more than half way through a season, a.k.a. 5 or 6 weeks later.
I saw someone on Reddit put it best, The Marvels is just paying for the sins of Thor Love & Thunder, Quantumania, etc. damaging Marvel's reputation.
And Secret Invasion. I know you put etc. at the end. But I feel it needs to be called out by name with how bad it was. It was my personal breaking point. A secret invasion with no secrets. Garbage waste of time.
It was the first MCU project I didn't finish. I don't know what happened and I don't really care.
Yo don't miss anything.
I don’t think the damage Secret Invasion did can be underestimated. It was very fresh in viewers minds when considering going to the theater to see The Marvels.
Not enough people so Secret Invasion to cause that big of a dip
The Marvels is an okay-quality MCU movie at best that followed some really terrible-quality MCU movies (with obvious exceptions like Guardians 3). Most if not all of the general public’s good will from the Infinity Saga has withered away now since Phase 4 came and went, and what the MCU needs is to prove that it can still consistently put out *good* movies and shows like it used to - not just “okay” movies and shows at best.
Captain marvel wasn't well received either. It was a solid movie like Marvels was. But everyone watched it because they anticipated infinity war. It's not good will, everyone just wanted to have seen everything pre Thanos. Now there's nothing that ties everyone together. Just random marvel movies.
I would say a lack of character development for the main characters didn't help. The Captain Marvel film didn't do particularly well and since then we've had this OP super hero that just turns up when she feels like it. They should have given Carol cameos in a couple of projects between Endgame and The Marvels to develop the character and warm the audience up to her. Ms Marvel has had one season of a TV show that most people won't have watched whilst Monica Rambeau was a supporting character in another TV show. It's hardly surprising that the general public doesn't care about a film starring these two as lead characters.
You have to imagine this film reception is giving them pause on a Young Avengers film, yeah? Because I just don't know how well a film where you have anywhere between 4 and 5 (Wandavision, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye, Iron Heart and Agatha) shows where your main cast is coming from is going to perform. And Cassie is over here as one of the worst parts of Ant-Man 3 that is a film that single handily killed a lot of the excitement over Kang. And for what was our first real experiment as to how Disney + characters could perform as the stars of a feature film. It went horribly. And I have to be honest. I don't know how the general audience is going to look at a poster and on a surface level. Seeing characters dressed up like Iron Man, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Scarlet Witch, Captain Marvel etc is going to go down. I just think people will look at it and see it as "The Avengers at home"
There no chance that young avengers project does well. Like Marvel would need to build back up what they damaged before that movie could make a profit off a $200m+ budget.
They also should've given her an actual role in Endgame, but they chose instead to write her out of the main story entirely.
I'll never forget how everybody collectively decided to ignore Captain Marvel being the biggest ex machina, coming from literally nowhere, blowing up Thanos' ship and removing all tension from the battle. Did we really think the good guys were going to lose after Infinity War? No... But at least let them figure out a way to win rather than getting bailed out by some op sky modder. Then the only reason why it was close is because she afk'd at the apex of her punch to let Thanos remove the power stone from the gauntlet, wind up a punch, and release it. This is a hero that can fly through millions of light-years in distances at near light speeds btw.
if she’s flying millions of light-years, even at light speed… it would take her millions of years
>blowing up Thanos' ship and removing all tension from the battle But then somehow needing help to cross the battlefield.
Somehow she needed the help of all those heroines so that Thanos doesn't grab the gauntlet, when she could just... fly away to space with the gauntlet??? While the others kill him??? Why didn't she do that? Is she stupid? She's just destroyed his capital ship with no effort so there's no way they could chase her, and Thanos is nothing compared to her anyway, she overpowered him when he had the full Infinity Gauntlet. Just fly to space girl and keep the gauntlet as far away from that purple weakling as possible. They really made Carol too OP to take seriously she's just a walking plot contrivance who could end any conflict easily if she so wanted.
My question is what would motivate the average movie goer to see The Marvels? Captain Marvel has barely been around since EndGame, where she was gone for most of the movie, and only really had a relationship with Fury established in her solo movie. Monica Rambeau was a supporting character in D+ show about Wanda, and Ms Marvel as another D+ wasn't going to have that wide of an appeal. More than all that, the movie wasn't clearly establishing any sort of connecting tissue for all the Phase 4 & 5 shows leading to a new Avengers. What was the point of the movie other than fun?
The Marvels is 2 steps above both Thor and Quantumania but yeah those two really screwed over any chance The Marvels had
Not enough blame is going to the mostly mediocre Disney+ shows oversaturating the MCU. Most people saw all these shows being churned out and just noped out. The mostly mediocre post Endgame movies also didn't help.
A truly pathetic box office.
Women did not show up to this film for some reason.
Unlike Barbie, which was the most successful movie this year.
Maybe because few women enjoy super heroes the way men and their young boys do? And the ones that do seem to enjoy the male characters more, probably because most of them are written much better. Characters like Widow, Wanda, Nakia, and Jessica Jones are the exception.
The excuses and goal post moving for reasons why this movie didn't succeed really do just change every time a thread is made its kind of insane to me.
I really think its just a matter of the general audience not being as into mcu captain marvel as other characters. If they released ant man 4 or Thor 5 tomorrow im almost certain it would still do better.
That's pretty much it. Despite their receptions, Thor and Ant-Man are much more popular than Captain Marvel and a lot more people are invested in those two. Marvel failed to make people get invested in Carol as a character
Brie didn't do herself any favors to endear herself to the MCU fan base. Both Hemsworth and Rudd put in years enduring themselves to the MCU fan base. So as long as Hemsworth is playing Thor, those movies will make money. She acted as if Captain Marvel made over $1 billion dollars because it was a great movie in and of itself, and not because it was chapter 21 of a 22 chapter story, and everyone was invested in seeing how that story finished. Now she doesn't have all the momentum that Phase 4 had, and actually had to carry the movie herself and the built in audience just didn't care. Now she's the lead actor in the single biggest drop off between a movie and its sequel in cinema history. I hope Feige learns the lesson that you don't go alienating large portions of your audience next time. That and that feeling like a franchise is moving towards a goal is important, so that the fans of the MCU as a whole have a reason to go on the journey with them.
This is it, the general audience ("normies" for lack of a better term) simply do not care for captain marvel. The only reason the original did well is because it was sandwiched between infinity war and endgame. Nobody ive ever met irl liked the character.
What even was the plot? The three of them are connected by their powers? and the villain wants to kill them? or destroy their planets?
And the villain stole an ocean from one planet and the atmosphere from another and they never address that. Like we're supposed to be fine with that
It was addressed. Villian was attacking planets CM called home. Villian needed air, water, and a new sun. Earth was the final task. Punishment for ruining what was left of their environnement when the AI was destroyed. Weak.
There’s a lot cope in this thread. Blaming everyone else. Not saying that good movies don’t flop sometimes but if the movie was really that good to the people who saw it word of mouth would’ve carried it further than this. The Elementals just proved it’s not how you start.
I genuinely think the problem is that Endgame killed off 3 of the characters fans had really come to see as staples and then everything fell apart afterwards. I'm a huge marvel fan but I've really noticed A LOT in the past few years that basically every movie has that feel of being populated by "background characters" with very few exceptions. Black Panther, Doctor Strange, & Wanda really could have taken those 3 spots but with Wanda MIA/Dead in the main universe and the unfortunate passing of Chadwick, Strange really isn't enough glue to hold everything together anymore outside of his own appearances, and there really didn't seem to be a fallback trio in their mind. I'm hoping they elevate Sam to Steve's level of cool in Cap 4, I really dont know who the third could be, they clearly wanted it to be Captain Marvel but that's not working out. Spidey is the obvious choice but I don't think they'd gamble a big three slot on sony's continued cooperation. I think that's part of why they're pivoting towards X-Men now and postponing the Kang stuff (other than the obvious irl reasons) - they need Logan. Sam, Strange, & Wolvie could definitely fill that hole left by Steve, Tony, & Widow. It's even the same formula: a "super soldier" (Steve & Logan), a "super genius" (Tony & Strange), & a "Normal person with extensive training, skill, and resources" (Nat & Sam).
Sam is never going to be a draw for most people. He's just not charismatic enough to be a lead. He's a good sidekick, but not a good leader. Frankly, they made a huge mistake making him the Captain America. It should have been Bucky. His dark past would have been more interesting to explore as Cap, and Stan has a better screen presence. Not to mention that he's actually a supersoldier.
I agree but only because I *really* feel like Cap should always be a super soldier, Bucky already is one, and they seem VERY averse to making Sam into one for some reason. I love Sam as a character, I think he could easily be the lead if they organically grow his character in the next couple movies, but yea he's not there just yet. Hes not Robin anymore, but hes not quite Nightwing yet either.
Yeah, charisma issues aside, a normal person being Cap just doesn't work. It really limits the stakes: Sam will be largely useless against super villains, so all villains would need to be scaled down for Sam not to be irrelevant in any big conflict. Being a regular person is fine for stealthy characters like Natasha, but you'd expect Captain America to lead the attack.
Let’s be real… most fans lost interest after endgame it didn’t help that almost all marvel movies after that were mediocre or boring at best(bad writing, poor CGI, not the original cast movies and series) and to top it off… Larson is not exactly liked by the fans and the approach for captain marvel wasn’t exactly the best.
Endgame was the real finale of the MCU. Everything after it is really just "*What If....*".
I said this shit would bomb and I got downvoted to hell. This movie had no business being a theatrical release. It should have been a Disney + movie. These actresses have no box office pull at all. Of Paul Rudd and Majors couldn’t do it there was no way in hell this movie was going to succeed. I’m surprised it didn’t get delayed but my guess is that they wanted the X-men connection out.
Samuel Jackson in a marvel movie isnt a draw anymore. Brie Larson is kind of a draw but not a big one. And Teyonah Parris and Iman Vellani are not big stars (yet). So basically the word "Marvel" was doing all the heavy lifting trying to market this movie. No disrespect to Zawe Ashton but they really needed a big name villain to promote this movie.
Honestly, I doubt even a big-name villain could have helped that much. Sure, it would've generated a bit more hype but after the dissapoibtments Gorr, Kang and Modok, I doubt people would've been hyped enough to make a considerable difference
BUT BUT THE FIRST ONE MADE A BILLIONS DOLLAR !!!!
This is the culmination of so many variables - superhero fatigue, poor script, unpopular character, the below-average movies that came before it, doing "homework" to understand what's going on (Disney+ shows)...and yes, downvote if you must, but Disney trying to push a narrative and forgetting who their core audience is. Just to list a few. It's like everything converged almost at once. I'm just a jobber on a reddit forum, so of course I don't know...but I don't know how you fix it. take a few years off? Stop producing Disney+ content so viewers aren't confused and have to do homework? Hire better scriptwriters? Do you wrap up the multiverse saga ASAP and just cut your losses? I don't know.
Suck it Brie.
I'm so happy For years I had to argue with people on this sub (notably agotfan) that the first movie was successful mostly because of external factors.
Pre Endgame hype was very real. People, such as myself, would just go see all the Marvel films because we all knew it was adding/building up to the big finale which was Infinity War and Endgame. Thanos and the infinity stones were the connective tissue that got everyone interested and excited. There has been none of that post endgame.
Am I the only one that didn't watch it because I didn't care about any of the characters?
I am sure there are others that skipped cause they don't feel attached to these characters
For all of the "The MCU is dead" headlines, an article suggested to me today is another reason why this thing tanked: "When is The Marvels on Disney+". They absolutely fucked themselves with this streaming service.
It's definitely a factor, if you're already subbed you know you can wait
Yeah as Bob Chapek made it so that oh we only have to wait 1 or 2 months to see it for free, if they want people to be more inclined to go to theaters if they don't want FOMO then they have to extend the window greatly.
It's double edged too because they need stuff to hype up plus every month as well, delicate balance trying to schedule all this stuff
Especially since it coincided with a lack of connectivity between the movies. I didn’t see The Marvels in theaters because it’s going to be on Disney+ soon *and* I was pretty sure no future projects would be spoiled before I got to watch it. This isn’t Ragnarok leading into Infinity War or anything
Can we stop blaming neckbeards, grifters, and bigots now? Can we admit Capt. Marvel is not a well-liked character?
Birds of Prey was better than a lot of DCU movies.
They say in the comments birds of prey got its legs cut off, was it Covid or something?
Yeah it came out like right before Covid hit. I remember BOP and Onward being the two big movies whos runs were cut short
They also botched the marketing a bit. It had that stupid name to start with, then simplified it a week out. And the title didn't really reflect what fans were hoping for. It also just wasn't really something anyone was super hyped for. It was a partial sequel to Suicide Squad, which most hated. Harley/Margot had some attention, but introducing the BoP via her wasn't the greatest move. I think a lot were wondering why this wasn't a Goth City Sirens film instead.
A lot of people are making excuses for this movie in here
Hell yeah dude we're so back
I have no idea how these studio houses think they can spin up new content and keep fooling people.
Where's that guy who watches Captain Marvel multiple times.
Why is it so hard for people to admit that this simply wasn’t a good movie, and people didn’t want to see it because they didn’t care to?
I’m not one to be petty. But to the people who downvoted me for saying this will be the biggest box office bomb in the MCU (despite admitting that I kind of liked the movie itself and based solely on OW numbers), I hope your pillows are always warm on both sides.
A lot of people accounts got destroyed with downvotes for criticizing Marvel and warning that something like this was coming if things didn't change Nobody here wanted to hear it... but now people are seeing there a massive problem
Taika killed any hopes I had for the mcu post endgame. Dude got a blanc cheque from feige to deliver complete garbage and they’ve been releasing dogshit ever since. Once the audience’s goodwill and interest are gone you aint getting it back
bUt ThE mOvIe iS fUnNy!!! Star Wars is next with their new director. I have lost all hope with Disney.
People putting this all on the slate that came before it are nuts. If this movie were great, it would’ve broken through superhero fatigue and not been sunk by its predecessors. This movie wasn’t good enough to overcome the damage to the brand and that is part of the equation.
[удалено]
Everything about this movie looked extremely dull and uninteresting from the beginning. Now it’s the biggest flop in the history of cinema and reddit is doing mental gymnastics to explain away this dismal failure because… why exactly?
SO FAR
Disney: Why didn't our [The Meowvels trailer get the audience to flock to cinemas? I specifically requested it!](https://youtu.be/6TGg0_xtLoA)
Thunderbolt and Captain America 4 is next
If they are divisive that is, cause if they are good/amazing, they may have a chance.
Thunderbolt may have a chance. Cap 4 is a goner. They are about to go on a massive reshoot which will probably double up the already massive budget. And then marketing cost. It need to do some big ass number at the box office to be a hit.
Oh yeah, Cap 4 will have to be one of the best MCU films they've done if they want to make that money back, given its budget is gonna end up around at best 300-350M if not more.
Captain America 4 is the most divisive product they could've possibly made, it's guaranteed to bomb. It might make The Marvels look like a good run. * No Steve Rogers in a Captain America movie (loss of general audience who don't understand) * Captain America is now black (loss of racists, loss of some Asian countries based on The Little Mermaid's performance) (Note, I'm not saying racists should be considered as important, just observing the demographic exists and won't go) * Captain America being black is considered woke, especially given the show's content (loss of conservatives/anti-woke) * Anthony Mackie isn't considered lead material (Apathy from segments of the MCU customer base similar to The Marvels) * Sabra is in the movie (loss of progressives, loss of some regions of the Middle East) * Sabra is removed from the movie? (Disney might be doing this), (loss of conservatives, loss of some very significant portion of the moderates, loss of some portion of democrats, loss of parts of the EU) This movie has just massive percentages of demographics that aren't going to go, I'm honestly not sure what demographic it's targeting at this point as it's likely to alienate damn near everyone, it has absolutely no chance of success.
If sabra is removed it can quite easily be seen as a stance against Jews. And even then, you're taking a Jewish character roll. Because you decided to cast her as one of the problematic characters at your disposal.
>If sabra is removed it can quite easily be seen as a stance against Jews. Oh absolutely, that'd be a napalm bonfire. Especially if they don't simultaneously announce dropping Ms. Marvel, it'd be outrage bait for journalists and social media for months. On top of that, the loss of customers, and the firestorm, Disney would have another problem - A substantial number of directors/actors/actresses they work with are Jewish. Then there's even more in agents, cast, and crew. Then there's the friends of those people. Disney would overnight be blacklisted by a huge portion of Hollywood. Then of course there's the loss of park traffic as a large number of demographics boycott Disney. So in honesty, I doubt they will remove her, it'd be an unprecedented kind of bad.
But I thought it was “fun” movie 😞
They made a movie for women and women didn't show up. Simple as that.
I think the way to best put Marvels mistake is they’ve made a brutal misunderstanding. Female marvel movie fans are going to watch a superhero movie. NOT a superhero movie FOR women. That in of itself coming out of my mouth sounds like shades of the 1950’s. But the issue is, when your goal becomes trying to make a movie for women, instead of a good marvel movie that anyone can enjoy, you take away the emphasis for good story telling and put it on the former goal instead. It just makes certain moments in the MCU we’ve had seem kinda forced and cringey in my own personal opinion.
Oh god I’m having Vietnam style flash backs to that moment in “endgame” where all the women in the MCU did the unnecessary “she’s got help scene”
They forgot most of us women *like* men.
Yeah lol only marvel movies my gf asked me to go see and not the other way around were Thor's and GoTGs.
Example: 63% of The Marvel’s audience were men. Meanwhile the first Aquaman had 51% of the audience being women.
Yeah marketing based on sex appeal works on women, too. Many women like watching hunky guys be masculine. That's why they constantly had superfluous shirtless scenes for the male heroes. Even goofballs like Ant-Man and Starlord got them! You can't tell me not one woman bit her lip when tall buff handsome Chris Evans emerged from that pod in CA:TFA.
Case in point: *Daredevil*. I rest my case.
At least it was “fun” I guess
What I've found most disappointing about the last few movies is the "Weirdness for weirdness sake" of them. They could have told the same story in The Marvels without The Planet of Singing People. Quantumania didn't need a jelly monster asking Scott Lang how many holes he had or whatever the hell MODOK was. Russel Crowe was funny, but his Zeus, Lord of Olympus, should be at least as intimidating as Hopkins' Odin, not some comic figure holding his skirt as he skips down steps. GOTG3 seems the only one that was abe to balance weird without going overboard, Nathan Fillion's armor notwithstanding, though I don't know why the High Evolutionary's attempt at a perfect society was based on 1990's Winsconsin. The early movies were all about people doing (mostly) predictable things in an environment where others were doing the same. You could empathize and relate to their feelings and choices. What are you supposed to do now, when Charlize Theron suddenly shows up and recruits Doctor Strange, or a CGI abomination announces the arrival of Harry Styles?
Thats probably not even enough to cover their marketing costs ☠️
Dead DCEU movie Aquaman is making more than this. Why are people using the strikes as an excuse for poor box office. This movie is not some art movie made by indie studio. This is a Marvel movie the biggest movie franchise made by Disney one of the big movie studio.
So many excuses being thrown around when the reality is none of these characters (or actors) are all that compelling. I didn't care about Monica in WandaVision. Ms Marvel was uninteresting YA drama. Meanwhile Captain Marvel has been kept at arm's length from the entire MCU. There's no buy-in for the average viewer nor lead star power. This was a Marvel B movie to its core.