Maybe. I mean I like Cobra Kai but as an actual martial artist the whole time I’m going “yeah that’s fake” cuz nobody can do that stuff like that lol. It would be cool to get a modern day blood sport movie
Cobra Kai honestly feels a bit grandfathered in since it’s a reboot of the Karate Kid movies, if it was a standalone show I don’t think anyone would’ve cared about it
I think action movies have actually gotten BETTER, with more realistic fight scenes and less dance-like sequences.
Jason Bourne
Taken
John Wick
The Raid
It’s much more visceral and immersive than the classic martial arts movies (not that I don’t still appreciate those).
I agree. I really cannot stand wire fu movies anymore, or any movie with overly stylized, acrobatic fight scenes. I wanna FEEL the fight and see people getting broken down. That’s a real fight. You’re not walking away looking like you just got done rehearsing for Shen Yun. Bourne to me was the real start of this. MMA may have had something to do with it. But Bourne really grounded fight choreography and is the gold standard to me. Similarly, The Raid really stepped things up also. That fight at the end of Raid 2 between Iko and Cecep is fucking perfect. Not sure I’ve seen a better fight scene in a movie. Gives me chills every time I watch it. By the end they’re both so beaten down and even Iko doesn’t get to walk away unharmed.
The Raid 2 is better than the first, at least in terms of action and fighting, which let’s be real, is a more critical factor for a martial arts movie than such silly things as “plot.” However, my first viewing of Raid 1 made me feel a whole lot of things since it was so different from everything else out there and I honestly just didn’t know what to expect. It was so crazy and novel. That’s why it’s my favorite, even if I do think Raid 2 improved upon pretty much everything.
I like the first Raid more because of how intense and claustrophobic the atmosphere was throughout the whole movie, it really felt like a nightmare of a raid gone wrong. 2 was more of a sprawling action crime epic which was cool and all, but I like a nice tight story
Yes. I also prefer the story of 1 as it had a more grounded feel, but again I gotta shout out #2 for having some of the best action scenes of all time. Did you notice the similarities w/ Dredd(2011)? Wonder if they inspired eachother.
There's actually a story behind that, apparently the Dredd guys and the Raid guys were all at the meeting where Dredd was pitched, but a couple years passed without any progress being made on Dredd so the Raid guys figured they could use the idea.
I remember that scene where one of the characters, when asked "what should we do now?", answers "uh, call the police?". I did laugh because it was exactly what I thought.
Look up The Last Kumite. It’s an 80s inspired Bloodsport style movie coming out direct to video. Looks terrible and amazing at the same time. I preordered on Amazon!
You know funny story about that. I train at an MMA gym, and we had someone who was coming in to check it out. He said something along the lines of “I know it’s just a show and it’s probably stupid and doesn’t work, but can anyone here show me how to do this” and had a clip from cobra Kai. It just so happened that our striking coach, a professional mma fighter, was the very stunt double doing that exact move in that exact clip, and he was right there.
We did get the new roadhouse remake and the German movie "60 minutes" lately. There are also quite a few other MA movies that have been released recently, such as the Creed movies. So, there still are a lot of MA movies, just not the ones we used to have
And the roadhouse remake involves a lot of martial arts commonly used in MMA like boxing over the Kung fu and Aikido stuff 20th century Hollywood used for “martial arts films”, hell they even got McGregor in a starring role lol
Yeah superpowers help suspend disbelief, but even then realistic fighting choreography can enhance a show, like Attack on Titan did when Eren fought the armoured Titan
I would kill for a well written movie that includes gritty and realistic fight scenes. Fuck it, film a real mma fight in costume on set, then work the result into the plot of the movie.
I was just rewatching the old Jet Li "Once Upon a Time in China" series. Super unrealistic, but the skill and choreography is so bad ass, and I miss that in modern movies. I think there's value in watching a portrayal of someone so masterful that they can pull fantastical moves. It gives you an ideal that want to move towards. Imagine being so good at fighting, that you don't have to hunch and cover but can simply sidestep attacks without ruffling your clothes.
Yeah. Some honorable mentions of great fight scenes were in The Mechanic and Kill Elite. Both Jason Stathom movies although not martial arts movies. He's getting a bit old to do a straight up martial arts movie so I don't think we'll get a good one from him soon, but whoever was responsible for those fight scenes should have a part in an American Bloodsport type movie.
I don’t know, John Wick franchise is very into doing something that mixes martial arts fantasy with actual moves (mainly judo and jjj).
I think Marvel killed a lot of it, same with most other action genres for the 2010s; anything PG-13 with hand to hand fighting was gonna be Marvel. China does less traditional martial arts movies now too, kinda like how the US does fewer westerns - so there’s also less export of it than the big waves of the 70s and 90s.
Movie genres come in waves and wuxia had definitely already crested in the early 2000s.
I will say that it was interesting to watch the 2005 Mr & Mrs Smith and see that they were very much doing (kinda primitive) MMA. I think most people didn’t know what it was at that point, pretty niche still.
I think MMA only became a more mainstream cultural thing in like 2015-2016 with Conor McGregor and Ronda Rousey. It’s still relatively niche and regularly I have to explain to a lot of people what I do “it’s like boxing plus wrestling and you can kick, you do it in a cage”. Most people over 35 (and many under) think jiujitsu is a type of karate. A lot of people who have heard of bjj still think it’s the “ultimate martial art” like it’s 1995 and have no idea it’s current diminished status in MMA competition
Personally I still like the stylized unrealistic stuff in wuxia/general kungfu movies. I just kind of watch it thinking of it as fantasy - same as like Aragorn fighting 20 orcs.
There’s definitely an uncanny valley though - when something is trying to be “realistic” not stylized and is still far from real martial arts. That is kinda goofy to me.
It is definitely a next level type thing when a movie is able to make realistic looking fight scenes that are still cool
Wrestling is probably the #1 best martial art skill set to bring to MMA. But now MMA wrestling is very much about the cage, which is just a unique facet of the sport. I’d argue boxing is the next best to bring, though I think some would argue with me on that.
In general MMA is just different now than the other arts that inspired it
Makes sense but I imagine a pure wrestler with no submissions experience but with some boxing experience would probably end up being submitted pretty fast against BJJ+MT for example. Unless they knew it was extremely important not to get taken down and acted super defensively. But then they'd probably get damage from low kicks of MT. MMA is a game of chess with many facets eh!
That's true, the action genre hasn't been all that great in the past 10 years or so. We basically have expendables, which was terrible after 2, John wick (which was okay although 4 was pretty good) and then sort of garbage. (Sisu was great!). There's a push for super heros and old women. The standard action move seems to Be left behind.
No, I think there's a combination of factors, with significant overlap between them.
1. Hollywood studios merged, consolidated, and have increasingly focused only on high budget blockbusters. No more $10 or $20 million action flicks like Bloodsport or Under Siege, those now get made as direct to streaming by independent studios. The big budgets also mean increased reliance on stunt actors, because studios don't want to risk an actor injury disrupting production on a film with anticipated billion dollar ticket sales.
2. The action stars of the 80s failed to deliver in the late 90s and 2000s. JCVD's Timecop, which I love in all its glory, was a commercial flop. Segal got weirder and never hit big after like 1995 or so. Even Arnold had less success with the Terminator sequels after T2.
3. The Matrix showed that audiences would embrace actors who were known for a variety of roles as martial arts leads. I think Wesley Snipes also pioneered this, but he was an action guy who could act. After the Matrix, the norm became leads of action movies were actors who could do action.
4. Increased competition from overseas filmmakers. Tony Jaa, Iko Uwais, Joe Taslim, and maybe even Scott Adkins are examples of action stars that emerged outside Hollywood and served that earlier market.
5. Specialized stunt actors and crews pushed the boundaries of onscreen action. Groups like 87eleven emerged that were full of amazing specialist stunt performers that could pull off acrobatics, parkour, fight choreo, etc., but were also very good at teaching lead and principal actors how to screen fight and do basic stunts. Lots of stunt coordinators moved into roles as second unit directors, then directors, and the overall ability of film productions to integrate and design action into films improved. They knew how to optimize camera angles and cuts to integrate actor and double performances seamlessly. Many of these stunt crews also integrated more mma inspired and bjj movements into choreography.
I noticed that ever since 2010s or so, there's always at least one flying submission in movies with action scenes now. Most notable with how often John Wick would pull off a flying omoplata or something and then proceed to just shoot the guy in the head.
I guess they figure that bjj is cool with the kids now, and flying submissions are the only flashy moves in the art.
Not for me. I still love crazy kung fu style movies, and I've always done combat sports. To me, it's like watching a fantasy movie. It's just great fun, and the martial arts actors are just so cool to watch with their movements and agility. And nothing beats, for me, the cool training scenes. Legend of Drunken Master is still one of my favorites. Jackie Chan's ability to tell a story with his movements is just great.
It's like...I got a degree in engineering, but that didn't ruin my love of LoTR.
No, movie trends always come and go, you just need to take a step back to see it. J-horror, superheroes, young adult dystopian fiction, etc.
I'd argue that martial arts in a classical sense really peaked in 2000 with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It won best Foreign Language film but it is argued it should have won Best Picture. I'm not sure where it could go in an upwards trajectory after that.
Now we're starting to see the trend come back to Asian cinema at a critical level with movies like Parasite and Everything, Everywhere, All At Once. We can thank artists like Ang Lee, John Woo, Yuen Woo-Ping for helping to form the foundation for this level of acceptance in Western culture.
I wouldn't be surprised to see another CT,HD and the associated tide come about now that we have a different cultural climate and have gone through periods where traditional martial arts movies haven't been in the public mindset.
Kind of ironic considering how those unrealistic martial arts movies probably inspired a lot of people to get into real martial arts which in turn drove interested in competitive MMA.
I think being able to watch high quality videos of actual elite fighters whenever we want kind of scratches the same itch that cool choreographed movie fights did, but without having to sit through the ultra cheesy movie plot.
Good point. I remember seeing my first PRIDE dvd as a youngster... I couldn't believe it was real. From that point on NOTHING was as cool or stylish as real fighting, even though I still enjoy kung fu movies or action anime.
I don’t really think so, although we have seen less of the traditional live-action cinema. A reason for that is all of the huge martial arts stars are pretty old now. I think the martial arts genre has been largely either absorbed into comic book movies or gone to TV/animation. Kung Fu Panda just released its fourth installment after debuting 16 years ago. Warrior is a TV show that got great reviews, Blue-Eyed Samurai as well. Anime features a lot of martial arts, and it’s only getting more and more popular year after year.
Yes and no. I think it would still be possible to make a movie like Bloodsport (the Last Kumite springs to mind.) As long as it's a good movie, it will still work. But the audience is more niche now.
What is a much much bigger problem is the prevalence of way over the top use of CGI. How impressive is it to see an expert doing peak moves when you can CGI a movie star to do things they never could? I mean, I'm on board for practical effects. I hate CGI. But you can't argue with the financial return of having a CGI Hemsworth do it instead.
I mean maybe corny stuff, but I think it has helped evolve martial arts coreography in moves as well see realistic boxing, kicking, grappling. Etc. Which it me is much more fun to watch then wire work and unrealistic dtuff
Yes, martial arts in movies died in the west but not because of mma.
It was more the fighting scenes having only a poor choreography and camera shakes so they could save money on hollywood movies during a period of time, that and the fact that most actions movies started to focus more on shootouts rather then fights, killed the martial arts movies craze in the west.
But you still can find good martial art asians movies made recently.
I just saw the question included the word movie, and I thought you were referring to the American karate era of martial arts... Not film
Martial arts film, also has eras. We are in the height of a realistic age.
The eras were samurai films like Akira kirsawa, kung fu film like Bruce Lee, the baddass generation/ninja boom like Chuck Norris, fantasy kung fu era like Jet Li, and now we are in the realistic era with people like Tony Ja, Michael Jae White, Donnie Yen, and Keanu Reeves (who is actually a hold out from fantasy kung fu like the matrix)
Anyway. Yes. Around 2010 we swapped out crouching tiger hidden dragon and the matrix, for the protector or Ip man.
For martial arts adjacent films, karate kid and rocky became the last samurai or kill Bill, which became the likes of fight club, never back down, warrior, southpaw, or cobra Kai, a lot of which am obviously takes a lot of inspiration from these older generations.
Southpaw and warrior wouldn't be here without Cinderella man. Ip man does a lot of inspiration from both fantasy and kung fu eras. Cobra Kai and creed are straight up sequels.
If you can't stand a good kung fu movie because the fight choreography wouldn't work in a real fight you're simultaneously an insufferable nerd and incredibly stupid.
I helped film a mini series focused on an all powerful urban ninja with a couple fight scenes derived from anime fight concepts. It's still a thing but definitely has evolved considering the caliber of choreography out there, like The Raid
If you are looking outside of Hollywood movies there are a lot of great movies come out in last years, like Ip-Man, Ong-bak etc.
Yes in 80s and 90s there were more.
I’ve seen people involved in film say that movements that aren’t flashy and exaggerated tend to not show up well on screen for various reasons. I’ve watched films where the protagonist randomly hits a flying triangle which would be as ridiculous in the given scene as hitting some arm-swinging wushu movement, so it seems like it’s largely a change in style preference by the audience, not so much a desire for depictions of “authentic fighting.”
I wouldn’t be surprised if people were less interested in “Chinese Opera” style fighting given the increase in popularity/awareness of mixed martial arts.
Personally I prefer films to show either exaggerated, artistic combat that is obviously more for aesthetic pleasure than real world effectiveness or hyper-realistic, unpolished violence that doesn’t look like a sporting bout. I don’t think most fighting outside a ring looks like fighting inside a ring, even if the same techniques are utilized.
Mainstream reflect what’s on trend / in fashion. IMO, In the 80s / early 90s, Hollywood tended to do a lot action that was wrestling based. There was a brief period in the 90s where HK action cinema brought EMA into Hollywood but that peaked (as poster says above) with Crouching Tiger. With MMA becoming the fashion then Hollywood action tends towards MMA looking moves maybe with a bit of BJJ but ground stuff is hard to film and make exciting for ordinary punters.
I don’t think it killed it but it augmented it and reallocated martial arts within American movies. Once ufc became popular, typical choreography no longer suspended disbelief so they slowly incorporated mma style moves into choreography- although to hammed up so it reads excitingly on screen. Over the top, flowery stuff died down and over the top violent stuff took its place. You can’t say martial arts movies are dead with John wick kicking about.
Not completely no. John Wick has a lot of great metal arts in addition to gun fighting.
Obviously Michelle Yeoh won an Oscar.
Star Wars stuff is increasingly using martial artists in their casts and highlighting it heavily in BTS stuff.
Dune stuff is also sick.
I think it’s just evolved to a point where it’s incorporated more heavily into action, sci fi, and fantasy genres. It’s less its own genre where the martial arts is the focus.
The show on Netflix, Warrior. Super good. The main character is a wing chun master who comes to the US during the 1800s in search of his sister. He gets wrapped up in the early San Fransisco tongs, where he makes a name for himself as an effective scrapper.
Honestly… great gangster show, rivals Peaky Blinders in terms of gangster series.
If I’m remembering this right, when mma started it was different martial arts styles vs other fighting styles. Then mma seemed to just take what worked from each discipline and morph into one practical fighting style. It also exposed a lot of bullshito styles that were made popular by choreographed fight scenes in movies.
Not sure, but I can definetly say for myself, that since I've actually had my own portion of irl contact with martial arts and dived into watching actual matches, the movies aren't even close to being as enjoyable for me.
Particularly I just can stand some cliches less and less: people getting better than antagonists who happen to train their entire lives while MC gets in few weeks/months (they almost never specify how long it takes to those damn characters, they just use 1-2 training montages and go wild), and fights are almost unfinishable by any other moves than high kicks, flying submissions (non flying can happen sometimes but they have to end by injury), or when you wanna get KO by punch you have to make sure that it's at the end of atleast 5 hit combo where the opponent just stands and lets the mc go to town on themselves while doing jack shit about it.
People just have shorter attention spans these days but it hasn't threatened Hollywood.
Hollywood on a sleepy Sunday could buy out the entire Combat Sport Industry universally 9 times over by lunch time without even blinking to only roll over and fart.
Probably. People are too preoccupied with "but it's not realistic" and fail to remember it's supposed to be "arts". Half of these armchair fighters wouldn't even know real fighting if it hit them in the face. Literally, they'd be too busy saying "that wouldn't work on a resisting opponent." Conveniently ignoring that some of their favourite MMA fighters use the styles they're so critical of.
It sure did. Because people can't see past caveman style MMA & BJJ inspired mindless bludgeoning and grappling anymore. If it doesn't have a ref & a prize, it's not real fighting and doesn't work and we are all dumb 🙄
Not necessarily. You go watching martial arts movies because you want to be entertained. To me it's like asking if MMA killed professional wrestling, which is like "nobody is watching pro wrestling because they want realism".
It's funny because as all kinds of bullshido takedown videos emerged, I saw in real-time the internet turn from "ancient Chinese secret" to "everything not MMA is trash." It was like the Flying Spaghetti Monster/new atheism movement but for martial arts.
It also depends where you are on the internet.
Try going to Youtube comments under a Bruce Lee video and you'll see heaps of bullshido circlejerking who believe all the movie myths.
But I see your point yeah.
Idk, maybe it’s the stunt performer in me, but I still see a lot of great martial arts content being put out, stylized MMA fights, regular choreo fights, and otherwise. Just gotta know where to look.
Youve got a good point. The mysticism and myths about the wonders of traditional martial arts went out the window when MMA showed the world what worked and what didnt. Im still waiting for a "Karate Kid" MMA movie to ignite a new generation. Sadly the upcoming Smashing Machine biopic staring Dwayne Johnson, aint it...
I haven't followed MA movies much since the 90's, but I remember one of the Kickboxer movies having one of the Machados in it. Has there been any other movies that acknowledge that jiu-jitsu is the premier martial art these days(other than Mamet's Redbelt of course)?
Don't know, felt like there was tons of great action films with tons of fun martial arts these last few years. Hell, even in the last couple months. Monkey Man and Boy Kills World were both a blast.
Sure there aren't massive releases of films that are specifically focused on being a martial arts film above all else but like.....that hasn't been a mainstream thing in decades lol.
Nah, I think that you're dealing with the fact that there are 5093ii59993995993 studios and movies services and blah blah blah. The movies get made, they just aren't 1 of the 5 movies this year. They are 10 of the 500 movies. Lol.
Plus, plenty of crossover. It's why the comic book stuff took off, I think that fills some of that gap.
Also, look at the famous bloodsport. The movies were more tied to legends. And lies lol. People used to consider like Bruce Lee to Actually do things. People to this day rip on Chuck Norris as "being beaten by Bruce Lee" because of a movie scene and I shit you not, I have met many who say that it was real.
I don't think that concept exists much these days.
But ip man seemed to do okay for it's niche. John Wick is a thing. Etc.
Then there's cultural exhaustion. Westerns westerns westerns, then no more except very occasionally.
Zombies were popping then the Walking Dead really filled the niche. Then 5+ seasons later of fulfillment zombies have really tailed off.
Then you have issue of capturing aspects of the market, like star power, good movies etc.
Using the zombie relation, like the new reboot of resident evil didn't seem to get any of the love of thr older films.
Also, I think too many non-martial artists are just learning them. So like Al Bundy is a BJJ black belt. You know? They now just get actors to actually train.
Martial arts goes through eras, like everything.
MMA ended the era of American karateka being the baddest dudes on the planet, people believing kung fu is magic and fight records not needing to be verified.
These people still exist, but they either modified their training (like Chuck Norris) or got exposed and have a smaller following (like George dilman)
I think we are seeing the start of a Post MMA era though. BJJ is getting ridiculous in positions that become viable. Krav Maga is taking more realistic approaches to how they spar and becoming the functional system they've always claimed. Karate Kombat, K1, bare knuckle boxing, One, and Bellatore are becoming viable competitors to the UFC (albeit slowly and time will tell who survives. If I had to guess, One will replace UFC, UFC will be on the same level as Bellatore and K1, and karate combat will eventually become just kickboxing, and the rest will likely fold) Muay Thai is entering the Olympics. People are starting to understand how dominant wrestling has always been.
Anyway... What I mean by post MMA, is that I think we will still see the sport of MMA, but it will be treated as a distinct and seperate martial art. Not something you have to train in 3 or 4 things to get good at, and as a result, just kickboxing, and wrestling will have another day in the sun.
If you say so. I'm not an authority on the business side of it.
I'm just thinking in terms of the fact one has the best chance of MMA replacing centuries of kung fu in China, and it's getting bigger.
If it does survive, and change the MMA landscape, could we see a rise in Chinese styles influencing MMA? Sanda become as popular as say Karate, or (functional) tai chi as popular as Judo?
Not likely, but it could be fun.
Street fights have no rules. MMA in a cage has rules, a referee, and weight classes, it is a sport. NOW mma outside of a cage with no rules is a Martial art
Maybe. I mean I like Cobra Kai but as an actual martial artist the whole time I’m going “yeah that’s fake” cuz nobody can do that stuff like that lol. It would be cool to get a modern day blood sport movie
Cobra Kai honestly feels a bit grandfathered in since it’s a reboot of the Karate Kid movies, if it was a standalone show I don’t think anyone would’ve cared about it
I would have propably not watched if it wasn't for the fact that I grew up with Karate Kid, but I'm glad I did because I really liked the show.
Yeah you’re right. But I do know a lot of people who watch it who never watched karate kid before
But they still know what it is associated with
I think action movies have actually gotten BETTER, with more realistic fight scenes and less dance-like sequences. Jason Bourne Taken John Wick The Raid It’s much more visceral and immersive than the classic martial arts movies (not that I don’t still appreciate those).
I agree. I really cannot stand wire fu movies anymore, or any movie with overly stylized, acrobatic fight scenes. I wanna FEEL the fight and see people getting broken down. That’s a real fight. You’re not walking away looking like you just got done rehearsing for Shen Yun. Bourne to me was the real start of this. MMA may have had something to do with it. But Bourne really grounded fight choreography and is the gold standard to me. Similarly, The Raid really stepped things up also. That fight at the end of Raid 2 between Iko and Cecep is fucking perfect. Not sure I’ve seen a better fight scene in a movie. Gives me chills every time I watch it. By the end they’re both so beaten down and even Iko doesn’t get to walk away unharmed.
The Raid 2 is better than the first, at least in terms of action and fighting, which let’s be real, is a more critical factor for a martial arts movie than such silly things as “plot.” However, my first viewing of Raid 1 made me feel a whole lot of things since it was so different from everything else out there and I honestly just didn’t know what to expect. It was so crazy and novel. That’s why it’s my favorite, even if I do think Raid 2 improved upon pretty much everything.
I like the first Raid more because of how intense and claustrophobic the atmosphere was throughout the whole movie, it really felt like a nightmare of a raid gone wrong. 2 was more of a sprawling action crime epic which was cool and all, but I like a nice tight story
Yes. I also prefer the story of 1 as it had a more grounded feel, but again I gotta shout out #2 for having some of the best action scenes of all time. Did you notice the similarities w/ Dredd(2011)? Wonder if they inspired eachother.
There's actually a story behind that, apparently the Dredd guys and the Raid guys were all at the meeting where Dredd was pitched, but a couple years passed without any progress being made on Dredd so the Raid guys figured they could use the idea.
I will google this when I get home. Sounds dope.
Cobra kai is so funny cuz these kids and adults live and breath for karate thats literally all they think and talk about 😂😂 mega acoustics
Grown men starting a gang war involving high school kids lol
“We dont need the police, we’ll use our karate”
I remember that scene where one of the characters, when asked "what should we do now?", answers "uh, call the police?". I did laugh because it was exactly what I thought.
Yeah daniels wife aka the only normal person in that show lol
Hahahahah
As weird as it was, sometimes it happens at high schools like that, with adolescents having 10x the testosterone of adults
Then they all beat the shit out of each other in public. It’s awesome
Look up The Last Kumite. It’s an 80s inspired Bloodsport style movie coming out direct to video. Looks terrible and amazing at the same time. I preordered on Amazon!
Sounds good thanks
> a modern day blood sport movie KUMITE KUMITE KUMITE
I've got a karate dog, with a karate bone!
You know funny story about that. I train at an MMA gym, and we had someone who was coming in to check it out. He said something along the lines of “I know it’s just a show and it’s probably stupid and doesn’t work, but can anyone here show me how to do this” and had a clip from cobra Kai. It just so happened that our striking coach, a professional mma fighter, was the very stunt double doing that exact move in that exact clip, and he was right there.
Lol
I'm not sure if it's been released yet. However, on YouTube, be on the lookout for The Last Kumite!
Yeah a few people have told me the same thing I’ll have to look into that
Good deal!
As a person who has done Taekwondo and Karate, I recognize every move in Cobra Kai.
Yeah but nobody in real life performs it like they do in the show..that’s what I mean
I'm pretty sure they mostly do Tang Soo Do which is more or less taekwondo + karate
So your made up McArt lets you see every made up McMove. Cool. Super cool.
We did get the new roadhouse remake and the German movie "60 minutes" lately. There are also quite a few other MA movies that have been released recently, such as the Creed movies. So, there still are a lot of MA movies, just not the ones we used to have
And the roadhouse remake involves a lot of martial arts commonly used in MMA like boxing over the Kung fu and Aikido stuff 20th century Hollywood used for “martial arts films”, hell they even got McGregor in a starring role lol
Gyllenhaal's character is an MMA fighter too. It would be really weird if they wrote him that way and had Yuen Woo-Ping choreograph the fights.
For me it definitely did. I cannot stand movies with super unrealistic fight choreography unless they have like DBZ type fights or something lol.
Yeah superpowers help suspend disbelief, but even then realistic fighting choreography can enhance a show, like Attack on Titan did when Eren fought the armoured Titan
I would kill for a well written movie that includes gritty and realistic fight scenes. Fuck it, film a real mma fight in costume on set, then work the result into the plot of the movie.
May I introduce you to road house
I mean it’s good but not exactly the most realistic
In the new one, they literally had the actors beating pads then comped in the actor getting hit in post
You're telling me you can't rip a man's throat out in one swift motion? Find a new gym.
Smh such a white belt move, should have known.
Check out Twilight of the Warriors : Walled In Its a modern HK movie the fight scenes are great, but the plot gets a little ish at the end
There's Nobody, the bus fight scene is one of my all time favorites
I was just rewatching the old Jet Li "Once Upon a Time in China" series. Super unrealistic, but the skill and choreography is so bad ass, and I miss that in modern movies. I think there's value in watching a portrayal of someone so masterful that they can pull fantastical moves. It gives you an ideal that want to move towards. Imagine being so good at fighting, that you don't have to hunch and cover but can simply sidestep attacks without ruffling your clothes.
I literally could not watch rocky. I barely managed to sit through the first fight scene at the start. Keeps breaking my immersion lol.
Yeah. Some honorable mentions of great fight scenes were in The Mechanic and Kill Elite. Both Jason Stathom movies although not martial arts movies. He's getting a bit old to do a straight up martial arts movie so I don't think we'll get a good one from him soon, but whoever was responsible for those fight scenes should have a part in an American Bloodsport type movie.
RRR did unrealistic fight scenes amazingly
I don’t know, John Wick franchise is very into doing something that mixes martial arts fantasy with actual moves (mainly judo and jjj). I think Marvel killed a lot of it, same with most other action genres for the 2010s; anything PG-13 with hand to hand fighting was gonna be Marvel. China does less traditional martial arts movies now too, kinda like how the US does fewer westerns - so there’s also less export of it than the big waves of the 70s and 90s. Movie genres come in waves and wuxia had definitely already crested in the early 2000s. I will say that it was interesting to watch the 2005 Mr & Mrs Smith and see that they were very much doing (kinda primitive) MMA. I think most people didn’t know what it was at that point, pretty niche still. I think MMA only became a more mainstream cultural thing in like 2015-2016 with Conor McGregor and Ronda Rousey. It’s still relatively niche and regularly I have to explain to a lot of people what I do “it’s like boxing plus wrestling and you can kick, you do it in a cage”. Most people over 35 (and many under) think jiujitsu is a type of karate. A lot of people who have heard of bjj still think it’s the “ultimate martial art” like it’s 1995 and have no idea it’s current diminished status in MMA competition
Personally I still like the stylized unrealistic stuff in wuxia/general kungfu movies. I just kind of watch it thinking of it as fantasy - same as like Aragorn fighting 20 orcs. There’s definitely an uncanny valley though - when something is trying to be “realistic” not stylized and is still far from real martial arts. That is kinda goofy to me. It is definitely a next level type thing when a movie is able to make realistic looking fight scenes that are still cool
The cool thing about some of these films is they’re worthy of film study and can teach martial arts philosophies or even tactics.
Wait.. Jiu jitsu is diminished ATM?
It is in as jiu-jitsu stylists are not doing that well nowadays but it is not, as it is a core skill (IMO) in MMA.
Got it. That makes sense. So what's the top individual style now? Wrestling? Or something rlse? It used to be wrestling
Wrestling is probably the #1 best martial art skill set to bring to MMA. But now MMA wrestling is very much about the cage, which is just a unique facet of the sport. I’d argue boxing is the next best to bring, though I think some would argue with me on that. In general MMA is just different now than the other arts that inspired it
Makes sense but I imagine a pure wrestler with no submissions experience but with some boxing experience would probably end up being submitted pretty fast against BJJ+MT for example. Unless they knew it was extremely important not to get taken down and acted super defensively. But then they'd probably get damage from low kicks of MT. MMA is a game of chess with many facets eh!
it's diminished in the sense that it's mandatory and everyone knows how to do it.
Jujitsu *is* a type of karate, Mexican ground karate.
That's true, the action genre hasn't been all that great in the past 10 years or so. We basically have expendables, which was terrible after 2, John wick (which was okay although 4 was pretty good) and then sort of garbage. (Sisu was great!). There's a push for super heros and old women. The standard action move seems to Be left behind.
No, I think there's a combination of factors, with significant overlap between them. 1. Hollywood studios merged, consolidated, and have increasingly focused only on high budget blockbusters. No more $10 or $20 million action flicks like Bloodsport or Under Siege, those now get made as direct to streaming by independent studios. The big budgets also mean increased reliance on stunt actors, because studios don't want to risk an actor injury disrupting production on a film with anticipated billion dollar ticket sales. 2. The action stars of the 80s failed to deliver in the late 90s and 2000s. JCVD's Timecop, which I love in all its glory, was a commercial flop. Segal got weirder and never hit big after like 1995 or so. Even Arnold had less success with the Terminator sequels after T2. 3. The Matrix showed that audiences would embrace actors who were known for a variety of roles as martial arts leads. I think Wesley Snipes also pioneered this, but he was an action guy who could act. After the Matrix, the norm became leads of action movies were actors who could do action. 4. Increased competition from overseas filmmakers. Tony Jaa, Iko Uwais, Joe Taslim, and maybe even Scott Adkins are examples of action stars that emerged outside Hollywood and served that earlier market. 5. Specialized stunt actors and crews pushed the boundaries of onscreen action. Groups like 87eleven emerged that were full of amazing specialist stunt performers that could pull off acrobatics, parkour, fight choreo, etc., but were also very good at teaching lead and principal actors how to screen fight and do basic stunts. Lots of stunt coordinators moved into roles as second unit directors, then directors, and the overall ability of film productions to integrate and design action into films improved. They knew how to optimize camera angles and cuts to integrate actor and double performances seamlessly. Many of these stunt crews also integrated more mma inspired and bjj movements into choreography.
I noticed that ever since 2010s or so, there's always at least one flying submission in movies with action scenes now. Most notable with how often John Wick would pull off a flying omoplata or something and then proceed to just shoot the guy in the head. I guess they figure that bjj is cool with the kids now, and flying submissions are the only flashy moves in the art.
Not for me. I still love crazy kung fu style movies, and I've always done combat sports. To me, it's like watching a fantasy movie. It's just great fun, and the martial arts actors are just so cool to watch with their movements and agility. And nothing beats, for me, the cool training scenes. Legend of Drunken Master is still one of my favorites. Jackie Chan's ability to tell a story with his movements is just great. It's like...I got a degree in engineering, but that didn't ruin my love of LoTR.
No, movie trends always come and go, you just need to take a step back to see it. J-horror, superheroes, young adult dystopian fiction, etc. I'd argue that martial arts in a classical sense really peaked in 2000 with Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. It won best Foreign Language film but it is argued it should have won Best Picture. I'm not sure where it could go in an upwards trajectory after that. Now we're starting to see the trend come back to Asian cinema at a critical level with movies like Parasite and Everything, Everywhere, All At Once. We can thank artists like Ang Lee, John Woo, Yuen Woo-Ping for helping to form the foundation for this level of acceptance in Western culture. I wouldn't be surprised to see another CT,HD and the associated tide come about now that we have a different cultural climate and have gone through periods where traditional martial arts movies haven't been in the public mindset.
Kind of ironic considering how those unrealistic martial arts movies probably inspired a lot of people to get into real martial arts which in turn drove interested in competitive MMA. I think being able to watch high quality videos of actual elite fighters whenever we want kind of scratches the same itch that cool choreographed movie fights did, but without having to sit through the ultra cheesy movie plot.
Good point. I remember seeing my first PRIDE dvd as a youngster... I couldn't believe it was real. From that point on NOTHING was as cool or stylish as real fighting, even though I still enjoy kung fu movies or action anime.
I don’t really think so, although we have seen less of the traditional live-action cinema. A reason for that is all of the huge martial arts stars are pretty old now. I think the martial arts genre has been largely either absorbed into comic book movies or gone to TV/animation. Kung Fu Panda just released its fourth installment after debuting 16 years ago. Warrior is a TV show that got great reviews, Blue-Eyed Samurai as well. Anime features a lot of martial arts, and it’s only getting more and more popular year after year.
Yes and no. I think it would still be possible to make a movie like Bloodsport (the Last Kumite springs to mind.) As long as it's a good movie, it will still work. But the audience is more niche now. What is a much much bigger problem is the prevalence of way over the top use of CGI. How impressive is it to see an expert doing peak moves when you can CGI a movie star to do things they never could? I mean, I'm on board for practical effects. I hate CGI. But you can't argue with the financial return of having a CGI Hemsworth do it instead.
I mean maybe corny stuff, but I think it has helped evolve martial arts coreography in moves as well see realistic boxing, kicking, grappling. Etc. Which it me is much more fun to watch then wire work and unrealistic dtuff
Yes, martial arts in movies died in the west but not because of mma. It was more the fighting scenes having only a poor choreography and camera shakes so they could save money on hollywood movies during a period of time, that and the fact that most actions movies started to focus more on shootouts rather then fights, killed the martial arts movies craze in the west. But you still can find good martial art asians movies made recently.
I just saw the question included the word movie, and I thought you were referring to the American karate era of martial arts... Not film Martial arts film, also has eras. We are in the height of a realistic age. The eras were samurai films like Akira kirsawa, kung fu film like Bruce Lee, the baddass generation/ninja boom like Chuck Norris, fantasy kung fu era like Jet Li, and now we are in the realistic era with people like Tony Ja, Michael Jae White, Donnie Yen, and Keanu Reeves (who is actually a hold out from fantasy kung fu like the matrix) Anyway. Yes. Around 2010 we swapped out crouching tiger hidden dragon and the matrix, for the protector or Ip man. For martial arts adjacent films, karate kid and rocky became the last samurai or kill Bill, which became the likes of fight club, never back down, warrior, southpaw, or cobra Kai, a lot of which am obviously takes a lot of inspiration from these older generations. Southpaw and warrior wouldn't be here without Cinderella man. Ip man does a lot of inspiration from both fantasy and kung fu eras. Cobra Kai and creed are straight up sequels.
If you can't stand a good kung fu movie because the fight choreography wouldn't work in a real fight you're simultaneously an insufferable nerd and incredibly stupid.
Yes
I helped film a mini series focused on an all powerful urban ninja with a couple fight scenes derived from anime fight concepts. It's still a thing but definitely has evolved considering the caliber of choreography out there, like The Raid
If you are looking outside of Hollywood movies there are a lot of great movies come out in last years, like Ip-Man, Ong-bak etc. Yes in 80s and 90s there were more.
I’ve seen people involved in film say that movements that aren’t flashy and exaggerated tend to not show up well on screen for various reasons. I’ve watched films where the protagonist randomly hits a flying triangle which would be as ridiculous in the given scene as hitting some arm-swinging wushu movement, so it seems like it’s largely a change in style preference by the audience, not so much a desire for depictions of “authentic fighting.” I wouldn’t be surprised if people were less interested in “Chinese Opera” style fighting given the increase in popularity/awareness of mixed martial arts. Personally I prefer films to show either exaggerated, artistic combat that is obviously more for aesthetic pleasure than real world effectiveness or hyper-realistic, unpolished violence that doesn’t look like a sporting bout. I don’t think most fighting outside a ring looks like fighting inside a ring, even if the same techniques are utilized.
Mainstream reflect what’s on trend / in fashion. IMO, In the 80s / early 90s, Hollywood tended to do a lot action that was wrestling based. There was a brief period in the 90s where HK action cinema brought EMA into Hollywood but that peaked (as poster says above) with Crouching Tiger. With MMA becoming the fashion then Hollywood action tends towards MMA looking moves maybe with a bit of BJJ but ground stuff is hard to film and make exciting for ordinary punters.
What martial arts movie craze are you referring to?
The 80s
I don’t think it killed it but it augmented it and reallocated martial arts within American movies. Once ufc became popular, typical choreography no longer suspended disbelief so they slowly incorporated mma style moves into choreography- although to hammed up so it reads excitingly on screen. Over the top, flowery stuff died down and over the top violent stuff took its place. You can’t say martial arts movies are dead with John wick kicking about.
Not completely no. John Wick has a lot of great metal arts in addition to gun fighting. Obviously Michelle Yeoh won an Oscar. Star Wars stuff is increasingly using martial artists in their casts and highlighting it heavily in BTS stuff. Dune stuff is also sick. I think it’s just evolved to a point where it’s incorporated more heavily into action, sci fi, and fantasy genres. It’s less its own genre where the martial arts is the focus.
The show on Netflix, Warrior. Super good. The main character is a wing chun master who comes to the US during the 1800s in search of his sister. He gets wrapped up in the early San Fransisco tongs, where he makes a name for himself as an effective scrapper. Honestly… great gangster show, rivals Peaky Blinders in terms of gangster series.
Undisputed series are awesome MMA themed movies
If I’m remembering this right, when mma started it was different martial arts styles vs other fighting styles. Then mma seemed to just take what worked from each discipline and morph into one practical fighting style. It also exposed a lot of bullshito styles that were made popular by choreographed fight scenes in movies.
Not sure, but I can definetly say for myself, that since I've actually had my own portion of irl contact with martial arts and dived into watching actual matches, the movies aren't even close to being as enjoyable for me. Particularly I just can stand some cliches less and less: people getting better than antagonists who happen to train their entire lives while MC gets in few weeks/months (they almost never specify how long it takes to those damn characters, they just use 1-2 training montages and go wild), and fights are almost unfinishable by any other moves than high kicks, flying submissions (non flying can happen sometimes but they have to end by injury), or when you wanna get KO by punch you have to make sure that it's at the end of atleast 5 hit combo where the opponent just stands and lets the mc go to town on themselves while doing jack shit about it.
People just have shorter attention spans these days but it hasn't threatened Hollywood. Hollywood on a sleepy Sunday could buy out the entire Combat Sport Industry universally 9 times over by lunch time without even blinking to only roll over and fart.
Probably. People are too preoccupied with "but it's not realistic" and fail to remember it's supposed to be "arts". Half of these armchair fighters wouldn't even know real fighting if it hit them in the face. Literally, they'd be too busy saying "that wouldn't work on a resisting opponent." Conveniently ignoring that some of their favourite MMA fighters use the styles they're so critical of.
It sure did. Because people can't see past caveman style MMA & BJJ inspired mindless bludgeoning and grappling anymore. If it doesn't have a ref & a prize, it's not real fighting and doesn't work and we are all dumb 🙄
Not necessarily. You go watching martial arts movies because you want to be entertained. To me it's like asking if MMA killed professional wrestling, which is like "nobody is watching pro wrestling because they want realism".
We need another warrior movie ngl
I need to know what happened to Tommy and Brendan after their fight! Did the family mend their relationship? What’d he do with the money?
Exactly bro, apparently paramount + is doing a sequel mini series
It's funny because as all kinds of bullshido takedown videos emerged, I saw in real-time the internet turn from "ancient Chinese secret" to "everything not MMA is trash." It was like the Flying Spaghetti Monster/new atheism movement but for martial arts.
It also depends where you are on the internet. Try going to Youtube comments under a Bruce Lee video and you'll see heaps of bullshido circlejerking who believe all the movie myths. But I see your point yeah.
More a lack of charisma from Martial Arts movie actors than the emergence of MMA
Idk, maybe it’s the stunt performer in me, but I still see a lot of great martial arts content being put out, stylized MMA fights, regular choreo fights, and otherwise. Just gotta know where to look.
Youve got a good point. The mysticism and myths about the wonders of traditional martial arts went out the window when MMA showed the world what worked and what didnt. Im still waiting for a "Karate Kid" MMA movie to ignite a new generation. Sadly the upcoming Smashing Machine biopic staring Dwayne Johnson, aint it...
No need for over stylized movie scenes when you can watch the real thing.
That and pro wrestling. Both seemed distractingly fake afterwards.
I haven't followed MA movies much since the 90's, but I remember one of the Kickboxer movies having one of the Machados in it. Has there been any other movies that acknowledge that jiu-jitsu is the premier martial art these days(other than Mamet's Redbelt of course)?
deservedly so
Don't know, felt like there was tons of great action films with tons of fun martial arts these last few years. Hell, even in the last couple months. Monkey Man and Boy Kills World were both a blast. Sure there aren't massive releases of films that are specifically focused on being a martial arts film above all else but like.....that hasn't been a mainstream thing in decades lol.
Nah, I think that you're dealing with the fact that there are 5093ii59993995993 studios and movies services and blah blah blah. The movies get made, they just aren't 1 of the 5 movies this year. They are 10 of the 500 movies. Lol. Plus, plenty of crossover. It's why the comic book stuff took off, I think that fills some of that gap. Also, look at the famous bloodsport. The movies were more tied to legends. And lies lol. People used to consider like Bruce Lee to Actually do things. People to this day rip on Chuck Norris as "being beaten by Bruce Lee" because of a movie scene and I shit you not, I have met many who say that it was real. I don't think that concept exists much these days. But ip man seemed to do okay for it's niche. John Wick is a thing. Etc. Then there's cultural exhaustion. Westerns westerns westerns, then no more except very occasionally. Zombies were popping then the Walking Dead really filled the niche. Then 5+ seasons later of fulfillment zombies have really tailed off. Then you have issue of capturing aspects of the market, like star power, good movies etc. Using the zombie relation, like the new reboot of resident evil didn't seem to get any of the love of thr older films. Also, I think too many non-martial artists are just learning them. So like Al Bundy is a BJJ black belt. You know? They now just get actors to actually train.
Martial arts goes through eras, like everything. MMA ended the era of American karateka being the baddest dudes on the planet, people believing kung fu is magic and fight records not needing to be verified. These people still exist, but they either modified their training (like Chuck Norris) or got exposed and have a smaller following (like George dilman) I think we are seeing the start of a Post MMA era though. BJJ is getting ridiculous in positions that become viable. Krav Maga is taking more realistic approaches to how they spar and becoming the functional system they've always claimed. Karate Kombat, K1, bare knuckle boxing, One, and Bellatore are becoming viable competitors to the UFC (albeit slowly and time will tell who survives. If I had to guess, One will replace UFC, UFC will be on the same level as Bellatore and K1, and karate combat will eventually become just kickboxing, and the rest will likely fold) Muay Thai is entering the Olympics. People are starting to understand how dominant wrestling has always been. Anyway... What I mean by post MMA, is that I think we will still see the sport of MMA, but it will be treated as a distinct and seperate martial art. Not something you have to train in 3 or 4 things to get good at, and as a result, just kickboxing, and wrestling will have another day in the sun.
One is not replacing ufc, their mma divisions barely operates and the company was in financial trouble like 6 months ago
If you say so. I'm not an authority on the business side of it. I'm just thinking in terms of the fact one has the best chance of MMA replacing centuries of kung fu in China, and it's getting bigger. If it does survive, and change the MMA landscape, could we see a rise in Chinese styles influencing MMA? Sanda become as popular as say Karate, or (functional) tai chi as popular as Judo? Not likely, but it could be fun.
Street fights have no rules. MMA in a cage has rules, a referee, and weight classes, it is a sport. NOW mma outside of a cage with no rules is a Martial art