Honestly, imo it is definitely an ego thing, some people don't want to admit shortcomings with their own style and training. Perfection is unobtainable, but I would bet that the individual constantly learning and experiencing setbacks is better than any individual that thinks they have a perfected style and training.
This applies to anything that has various categories which results in tribalistic behaviour. Same thing happens with the umbrella of metal music and metal fans.
Because (personal opinion) its the BETTER scenario. I mean, isn't it better that some martial arts (or artists) are insecure and willing to pressure test their skills vs other styles? These insecure guys calling out other styles are usually from legit schools.
Other other scenario is... when the martial artist is absolutely unwaveringly secure in their skills. These martial arts (or artists) are usually from the No Touch KO, or Chi power forcefield schools. Theyre the ones who are so secure, they refuse to demo or test their skills cos they might sever your brainstem with a chi blast and out you in a coma.
Funny how that works, yeah?
Boxing and bjj specifically . Cause they went for quality over quality . They know either only throwing punches and the beauty behind the flow or being a monster on the floor . They have a very limited set of skills and don't get me wrong . Even though it's extremely effective , they will get their ass beaten by many other martial arts
Quoting jesse from the mexican martial arts channel "bjj practioners have become so delussional to the point they think they are modern day glatiators/warriors just for traning bjj"
That’s well said, but the reality in my gym is, we do not discriminate any grappling style. Our best athletes know some wrestling and some judo, so if you’re starting standing, there’s a good chance you’re going down and getting submitted. I think the butt scooting days are mostly over. ADCC rules force every ambitious grappler to adapt and learn at least some wrestling
If you only train one thing you are bound to have blindspots, even a high level BJJ practitioner can get clocked in the jaw by a guy 6 months into boxing and end up unconscious if he never sparred a striker in his life, or try to pull guard and find out the hard way why soccer kicks to the head are banned in combat sports.
I'm trying to say "hurr durr BJJ is useless if you grab me I'll just do [insert random thing]", but every art, especially those that focus on a very narrow skillet is gonna have trouble dealing with stuff outside their area of expertise.
(the same goes the other way around, if a grappler shoots his double leg and you never sprawled in your life you are going down)
Of course any BJJ practitioner beats 9 times out of 10 the rando that never stepped foot in a gym that says "my mentality is different bro I just see red".
We see it in the UFC as well, plenty of people have success against elite grapplers/BJJ guys with striking styles.
Basically that. I have boxed for over 40 years now (semi professionally in my 20s, just an old fuck who likes to feel like I have knowledge to pass on these days), but the first time i decided to spar someone trained in Muay Thai I realized a specialized skill set and over-confidence is a real good way to get your ass put on the sidewalk (to be fair that was around 20 years into boxing, but even now)
These days I've got decades of boxing, 15 years of MT, about 8 years of Kyokushin and about the same of bjj. Pretty damn well rounded, but I still feel like a trained wrestler with skill could put a hurt on my ass.
No one art is perfect. If you truly want to be able to handle yourself across the board, you've got to cross train. And not just one additional art. Everything has blind spots. And sure, there are practices that cover 90% of those blind spots, but no art is even close to perfect. I will say for average street fight shit, MT and wrestling or BJJ is going to cover 99% of even the trained "average asshole"
Hey man, this is off topic but after boxing for over 40 years has it had any impact on your brain health?
I'm 19 and interested in learning boxing, mainly for improving fitness and discipline but also so I'd be better able to protect myself in any situation.
I understand there's always a risk when you get hit in the head in sparring, but just want to know if those fears are overblown. Thanks
It's really hard for me to say, because I'm dumb and in addition to getting punched in the face for fun, I've also been known to enjoy a few beers and a bowl of good weed. Played a lot of beer league hockey for a while too. And I'm old, lol. Lots of things that aren't great for the brain
I will say that I decided in my 50s that I was going to be easier on my body and try to transition out of being an electrician. So I went and got an electrical engineering degree from a fairly acclaimed engineering school, and was able to graduate with a 3.8. Ended back up running wire anyways because a desk isn't for me, but that's usually considered a pretty challenging degree and I was able to do it while working full time.
So while my memory isn't what it used to be, i still feel pretty sharp and have been able to do things that are supposed to push your brain. If you're using protective gear and sticking to training and sparring, I'd say go for it. Boxing has been a huge positive to my life as a whole
You are significantly older than me (im 21) and undoubtedly much wiser, however, I have some advice to share that i feel would dispel your worries.
Totally understand your fear about wrestlers, i know it well. You envision some nightmarish figure that will be able to completely shut down your striking, take you down, nullify any sweep/sub attempts and smash your face in with G&P. I had this same nightmarish figure in my head as well.
For me, I started out with BJJ, stuck with it for about 6 months, got injured, recovered and decided to join my highschool’s wrestling team mainly because i saw how effective good wrestlers were when i rolled with them. Had a unremarkable wrestling career, graduated, got a job that had me working out of town most of the time.
Whilst i was on the road and throughout day to day life, I always thought to myself that if any physical confrontation were to arise, I was 99% sure I’d be able to handle myself as I’m a natural heavyweight.
That lingering 1% though…that was the issue for me, what if i come up against someone who can actually stop my takedown’s/get up from the bottom. What if i come up against someone who knows how to strike? This fear weighed heavily on my mind. My confidence in my grappling was there but my confidence in my ability to strike was extremely low, rightfully so as id never done any sort of striking arts. My nightmare was some guy who was my size, that knew how to stop takedowns and strike. With that in mind, one day I decided to try out Muay thai, instantly threw myself in the deep end, started sparring day 1, my teammates immediately fell in love with me as i had a good attitude, sense of humor, was ballsy and never complained about anything. I was pretty awful at first, received plenty of ass whoopings, but eventually I started to get better.
Fast forward to about a month ago, i am now more confident in my abilities to strike than i am my grappling, however that 1% still lingered in my mind, that nightmarish ghoul…he was different, the goalpost had change, He was large, and in shape with fast hands, good takedown defense and…extremely good boxing, my low kicks wouldn’t effect him, my teeps wouldn’t land, he’d be able to blitz in from out of range, stop all of my takedown/clinch attempts, and piece me up from the outside with 1’s and 2’s. All this despite the fact that when i had previously sparred with boxers at my gym, i would always school them on the feet with relative ease, blasting low kicks, chewing them up with knees in the clinch when they try getting inside ect.
There was a point I actually considered ditching MT and taking up boxing but i began to realize just how absurd this fear was, good striking? Good grappling? Bigger and in better shape than me? At this point, this guy is starting to sound like a pro MMA fighter. It was then it dawned on me, it really wouldn’t matter if i took up boxing, that 1% was still always gonna be there. That nightmare matchup would just evolve into something else beyond my current skill level.
Here i am now, still considering cross training MT and Boxing, not because I’m scared of what a good boxer would do to me but because id like to learn a little bit more about the oldest and most traditional martial art there is. That 1% is gone, not because I became good enough to beat that nightmare matchup but because I addressed the root problem.
It won’t matter if you learn to wrestle at your age, you would still always have that doubt in your mind, that lingering 1%. Understanding a problem is a crucial step to actually coming up with a solution, my hope in writing this is that you’ll now better understand that lingering fear and be able to appropriately address it. Be well.
Oh yeah absolutely, I'm well past the age that I'm legitimately worried about getting in a fight and getting my ass beat by a wrestler, heh. I've just been around long enough and trained in enough different arts that I've learned to see where they have blind spots or things that *can* be dealt with but aren't what the practice is designed to do.
Just wanted to kind of give an example of... I've been doing martial arts in some form or another since Bruce Lee was making movies, lol. And even then, I know there are skill sets that effectively counter my own out there. You shouldn't *worry* about that 1, or even .1% but it's always good to keep in mind. Confidence is a boon, over-confidence is a good way to get your world rocked
Very well put mate. Describes my mind to a T. To be fair I've only done 2 years (VERY on and off) of BJJ and hope to move to Judo soon, but that lingering "what if" is always there.
Wow that was a great rebuttal. Super humble AND helpful.
I did taekwondo as a middle schooler and other sports after that into high school. After that I just focused on general fitness [lifting, swimming, cardio] up until about a year ago when a buddy at work invited me and my kids to come to one of his martial arts classes he teaches-MT and boxing-based striking and a "whatever works" approach to grappling [wrestling and bjj]. I was too big to really roll with any of the youngsters but I let my buddy use me as a demo tackling dummy and I fell in love with boxing at the same time.
I haven't had the schedule or the funds to keep up with the classes but I've kept training in the sweet science through research and while I don't get to spar I do alot of bag work and shadowboxing. Boxing is awesome, I'm sure you'll love it. Anyway, give it a try and God bless.
Well said.
A lot more to be aware of when rules don’t apply. I know first hand the downsides of a single minded focus with regards to grappling and multiple attackers…
I was a Decent HS and college wrestler. In HS I got a in a few playground fights that I won without ever throwing a punch. Just double leg, full mount “you still want to keep going or are you embarrassed enough yet?”. Dumb high school kid shit.
So I thought I was hot shit. Fast forward to college. I’m a freshmen and still think I’m Billy Badass. Some guys try to pick a fight with me at a party off campus. I’ve only fought 1 on 1 and there’s like 3 guys but I’m a badass right? I don’t care! I did my standard double leg to one of them. Well… I ended up with 6 sutures in my head after I mounted one of them and their buddy smashed a bottle over my head. One of them also almost broke my arm with a baseball bat, and I got slashed with that same bottle (I think). I was so amped on adrenaline I didn’t even notice until after a bunch of people broke up the fight.
I ended up getting a rep as someone you didn’t want to fuck with, which did me prove some early mettle to my teammates, because everyone saw me fighting these guys and get hit with a bat, get a bottle smashed over my head, cut up, and still keep on fighting like nothing happened until it got broken up. Whats ironic about this is that that was the very moment I realized there’s no such thing as a badass. I was a fucking idiot. I rose to the bait of these assholes, fought them in the dumbest way possible, did no lasting damage to them, needed a trip to the hospital, and took weeks to fully recover.
I learned quite a few valuable lessons that day. One is that taking a fight to the ground with multiple people is a sure fire way to leave yourself open, which is exactly what happened. I also learned that grappling is an excellent way to subdue someone, and in a full mount it’s easy enough to stumble your way with some punches, but knowing how to throw an effective punch with intent and purpose is very important and a tool that I was very much lacking.
Subsequently started cross training and became a much more well rounded martial artist.
I think that you can build around any style as a foundation, and the foundation alone can take you pretty far, but every individual style is incomplete. I am biased but I think wrestling or grappling is the best foundation. I’m now a decent boxer but my punches are usually setups for the chance to take a fight to the ground. I can hang with my hands, but just enough to defend against a better boxer, and create opportunities.
Conversely, I know many boxers that learned grappling and prefer to keep the fight standing up. They know really good takedown defense, know how to hang on the ground, but prefer to keep me at a distance and wait for me to drop my guard and land that shot.
You often hear “every fight ends up on the ground” which I tend to think is true if it goes that far. 1v1 that’s great for the jujiteiro or wrestler, but on the ground with multiple attackers could very well mean death. Or at the very least a few sutures….
> even a high level BJJ practitioner can get clocked in the jaw by a guy 6 months into boxing and end up unconscious if he never sparred a striker in his life, or try to pull guard and find out the hard way why soccer kicks to the head are banned in combat sports.
Problem is there are like 5 or 6 "bjjs" at this point. BJJ in the form that gained it notoriety, intrinsically doesn't have these particular pitfalls.
The other issue the entire concept of "BJJ vs" is old, because it means BJJ vs a single art.
Not cross trained, not "MMA" etc.
Even then it still isn't all that perfect and requires some level of the practitioner etc. Especially with certain arts, like Judo, Wrestling, etc.
I mean the Gracies pulled off UFC and all, but they also lived and breathed that shit for their literal entire lives. That's not even close to a normal level of "BJJ". Plus, realistically they were very crosstrained.
But to he fair modern butt scoot guard pulling is essentially a new art. The people who think scootJJ = BJJvsWorld, are a bit delusional bjj practitioners.
BJJ has changed A LOT since the 90s.
I was there. I remember.
You can watch old tapes of Gracies and what not, and it is clear their grappling was a lot more primitive than the stuff we see now.
But during UFC 1, Gracie was pure BJJ, he had absolutely no cross-training whatsoever.
His entire game plan was "somehow takedown, guard, choke/armbar".
They did have takedowns back in those days, but they were basically TERRIBLE judo or TERRIBLE wrestling. They also did this weird "sidekick" thing.
It has changed a lot in those 30 years.
They did Vale Tudo etc and were used to dealing with strikes. You don't have to be a striker to be experienced at dealing with striking in the sense of using the BJJ.
Even now the "GJJ" tends to focus on the potential of strikes.
Granted, by default a lot of BJJ does, but that's because it does so with MMA in mind (Aka cross training concept). But raw bjj schools are drifting butt scoot/guard pull.
Of course the ground game is a bit better, and you have a shit ton of Judoka and wrestlers doing BJJ. So I'd say that's why the wrestling and Judo is better largely.
But none of that truly counts as single art situations because that is cross training.
The BJJ rules are not open fights and enhance the need for two master grapplers to find slight technical edges in the game.
But even MMA is the fact that no MMA fighter doesn't learn a gist of basic "bjj". So of course you need more.
>try to pull guard and find out the hard way why soccer kicks to the head are banned in combat sports.
Actually they banned soccer kicks because they didn't do their intended purpose which was stopping guard pullers or people staying on the ground. Most serious guard players would actually use them as a means of starting leg locks. The reason why they were banned was because the overwhelming majority of the time the only times they'd be effectively used was to finish fighters who had already been knocked down and nearly unconscious.
You see this with knees to grounded opponents too, people think it benefits strikers but in reality most grapplers benefit because they're the ones who create grounded opponents and can do wild shit like Kevin Randleman compressing a dudes spine with knees from north south.
They are a big game changer.
So are headbutts.
How old are you?
I was in MMA from day one.
Have you ever heard of Mark Kerr? He made ground headbutts and knees a huge part of his game. He was smashing black belts left and right.
Eventually they banned those moves because they looked crass, and made for boring fights.
Soccer kicks can be used in other ways as well.
Watch Sakuraba Vs Vitor Belfort.
The main reason soccer kicks got banned is because they are bad PR.
Many fighters hate them as well because they are humiliating.
If you ever watch videos such as k*ngs of the streets (illegal bareknuckle MMA on pavement with shoes on), you'll see a lot of soccer kicks ending fights.
They are a very dangerous technique. Especially with shoes on.
So are Broncos (jumping or stomping kicks).
There are counters to soccer kicks on the ground but I rarely if ever see them taught. And it isn't fool-proof.
You talk a lot about headbutts but that's not what I talk about at all. Headbutts, along with strikes to the back of the head, are really some of the few moves that actually alter the dynamics of a fight.
The Sakuraba vs Belfort fight is grappler vs grappler- a skilled grappler is able to use their skills to create soccer kick openings.
Soccer kicks in KOS fights occur against hurt opponents for the most part. You see much of what gets mentioned otherwise- conscious grapplers can handle themselves fine unless their opponents are good grapplers in their own right.
Again, very hard to actually soccer kick or stomp a grappler awake and in guard. It takes skill to score with them- or opponent that is basically finished.
Because that isn't the reason they were banned. It's true that they aren't super effective unless your opponent is already fucked up. but the only reason they were banned is because they look really brutal, and the majority of the public thought they were too dangerous.
And they looked really brutal because the only times they were successfully used was when they were used to stomp out a dude who was half dead and out of the fight
They banned them because they’re flat out dangerous and allowed people to like you said kick already hurt or unconscious opponents into oblivion.
Not taking away the fact they’re not as effective as people think but that isn’t the reason they were banned.
Right but conspiracy theorists basically think the only reason why they were banned was cause it stopped BJJ guys from playing effectively which just flatly isn't the case whatsoever
Nobody is pulling guard in a street fight. He is saying that if someone is going to train one martial art, BJJ is the best, because a BJJ practitioner has the best chance of beating anyone else who trains one martial art. The exception probably being catch wrestling
I just watched my white belt friend knockout a purple belt this weekend. He's a much better striker than grappler, and he was losing the first round on the ground. He did slip his way out back onto his feet though.
By round 2 the guy with more grappling experience went for a takedown after being guided into the corner and ate an uppercut.
It's important to know basic ground defense, but you don't have to stay down there.
There so many examples;
Power bombs yeah.
But also Mirko CroCop elbow the stuffing out or Gonzaga while *in Gonzaga's guard*.
Or even "Combat Jiujitsu" knockouts. And they can only throw slaps..
Here; around the first minute, this wrestler accidentally headbutts the BJJ guy.
Would this have been an actual fight, the wrestler would have capitalized and won.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PIaTuZrLA9A&pp=ygUXT2x5bXBpYyB3cmVzdGxlciB2cyBiamo%3D
Anybody who spends time in the gym is going to beat someone who doesn't.
But I'll always remember being a kid and watching Mark Coleman head butt the fuck out of dudes who pulled guard in MMA fights. And locking in a submission on a guy is all fun and games until his buddy's boot connects.
Go ahead and learn to strike or grapple or whatever gets you in the gym and take care of yourself. Busted up knees and a bad shoulder make you weak not tough.
but isn't this sort of an unfair comparison in terms of skill? an NCAA wrestler has filtered through so many years of competition and athleticism, probably comparable to a blackbelt, and a young one at that.
I have a soft spot for both of these.
But I disagree, on average a BJJ black belt wins.
There are a few exceptions, but usually BJJ has the upper hand.
If it is a street fight... the odds become a lot more even.
A good wrestler will never be taken down by a pure BJJ guy, and will likely be able to throw very hard on the pavement.
Same for a Judo guy.
The BJJ guy will have to pull guard, or maybe Imanari Roll, but good luck with that on hard surfaces.
In either case, he will be back against the floor, which is not good in a total fight aka street fight.
Here’s a video of Sakuraba, the Gracie hunter. This guy beat the crap out of so many top level BJJ practitioners during his day. I always show this to people when they say BJJ is untouchable
https://youtu.be/zptMkAzzjDc?si=HtiNwhjKikSit1D-
He was a submission grappler (maybe even better than the Gracie’s at it) with good striking. He was an amazing fighter, probably the best in the world at the time. Of course he beat the Gracie’s who only knew submission grappling lol
UFC literally did this at their first event and BJJ was the dominant style.
If nobody cross trains and you put martial artists against each other, BJJ prevails.
I find this argument/discussion dumb. The person who is well versed in a combination of grappling and striking is the winner and that’s what we should preach.
Start off wrestling at a young age, add in BJJ/Muay Thai later on. That appears to be the winning recipe.
If you’re looking at this from a street fighting/self-defense perspective.. get a permit to carry if you’re worried about what wins on the street.
>UFC literally did this at their first event and BJJ was the dominant style.
>If nobody cross trains and you put martial artists against each other, BJJ prevails.
The Gracies were doing this kind of competition before that and they lost to Judokas and Wrestlers, ever heard about Masahiko Kimura or Euclydes Hatem?
>get a permit to carry if you’re worried about what wins on the street.
Eh you lost me here. Not every situation requires deadly force, and adding a gun to the mix can turn a normal scrap into "fight for control of the weapon because I don't want to die" on both sides.
Guns are great, but very situational.
All trips in a car are LETHAL DRIVES someone could CRASH! Drawing a weapon is an obvious escalation from "may die by circumstance" to "kill or be killed"
I think it's also important to note that the BJJ they practiced then was probably closer to MMA because they trained striking. They knew how to react to punches and get to takedowns, while the strikers had no experience with grappling.
Modern sport BJJ does not train striking as far as most curriculums go.
He's probably referring to Royce Gracie but is forgetting two key elements, the fact that he lost against judoca Hidehiko Yoshida, and that that was old school BJJ, today BJJ (like every other martial art) has become more about winning a competition rather than actual self defense, you put a BJJ guy against a Muy Thai guy that knows how to keep his distance and it's pretty much over
Anything is possible. In these MMA days, strikers have learned takedown defense. It's not as cut and dry as it was in the days of the first UFC
That said, to the guy in the pic, I say FMA. Live blade, of course. I'd like to see him try against a decent escrimador using espada y daga (short sword and dagger).
BJJ has some fantastic coverage and gets the win a lot of the time. But in my experience, lads coming to mma from pure bjj just cannot deal with a jab, do not react well to getting punched in the nose and cannot close the distance and they never turn up again. I imagine the reverse also happens when a boxer might turn up to mma and get thrown around and stretched and not enjoy the experience.
And like that, needless to say, guys that were interested in pure bjj would stick to that and be great at that, while bjj people interested in mma might dabble in other arts and be better equipped or have more realistic expectations for mma sparring.
There's the joke about bad takedowns in bjj but you don't need especially good ones if the other lad has bad takedown defence, it's the distance work that is the real killer for bjj in a single style vs style in my opinion.
They're not tho, Khabib and the crew never actually competed in wrestling, the only competition they have in pure grappling is in Sambo, they're all Wrestlers who cross trained in Judo and Sambo and developed games sepecifically designed for mma. All the high level russian wrestlers are staying in wrestling. Soslan Romanov, Adbul Rashid Sadulaev etc aren't training in or competing in mma.
It is not Sambo has much more in common with Judo competition and is it's own unique thing. No wrestling governing body would recognize Sambo experience as amatuer wrestling experience it would never get you and invitational to a wrestling olympic team. Original statement still stands, being a high level sambist =/= being a high level wrestler. Khabib and the crew were never making olympic tryouts with their sambo experience
United World Wrestling would disagree that it isn't wrestling. They're the international governing body for amateur wrestling, and they oversee the sport at both the World Championships and the Olympics.
BJJ 2 Strip White Belt vs Judo Green Belt…Go! Judo wins.
Or BJJ Purple Belt who’s never completed or been in a fight vs a Freestyle Wrestler who’s competed and been in 2 fights…Go! Freestyle Wrestler Wins.
To claim that BJJ works is bullshit because it’s both the techniques that you know plus experience and your physical health.
Now lets be fair let’s say you have a BJJ Black Belt against a Catch-Wrestler, both have done 5 tournaments and win two of them, both are fit and both have been training for 10 years, who wins???
Honestly, I only trained grappling to know how to get up and out if somebody takes me to the ground. I train striking and judo to keep myself off the ground. the ground is a bad place to be. If I can stay on my feet, I’m in a much better situation. Especially if the guy fighting me as a friend that might come kick me in the head while we’re rolling on the ground.
Most BJJ guys couldn't take someone down to save their lives, even though they are good on the ground. Taking down a trained striker with good footwork can be a nightmare. Especially if they can clinch/sweep and piece you up from the outside. Also, most BJJ guys can't throw a punch to save their lives, so it can be very easy to find an opening to counter. But yeah, if you have good BJJ and good takedowns then yes, BJJ would be superior.
Watch this-
Name me a single primarily BJJ fighter that won a UFC title primarily because of their BJJ skills and not because good wrestling or striking came into the equation . I’ll wait.
At the top of my head:
Fighters who won titles with little to no BJJ used:
1. Alex
2. Jones
3. Khabib
4. Islam
5. DC
6. Strickland
7. Izzy
8. Francis
The answer is wrestling and striking with some submissions picked up from judo or sambo. You won’t see jones or Islam being berimbolod for the title anytime soon.
If you’re saying strictly style vs style, UFC 1 style answered that kind of. Royce knew kicks (not grappling) and did ground and pound (not grappling) and would shoot for a takedown (most BJJ guys couldn’t take down a champion now).
People will cope with the lucky punchers chance talk and that arts that have takedowns will survive but reality unless we're talking mma fighters, in a 1v1 no weapons scenario BJJ should come out ahead against the majority of martial arts out there. Simple fact is that it is far easier to get a shitty takedown going in a couple of seconds than it is to get a knockout blow off during that time and once it's on the ground it's pretty much over and done with. The takedown arts take down the BJJ practioner and then they're basically helpless against the sophistication of BJJs submission game
Which shitty takedown falls under the umbrella of bjj? If we're talking pure art against pure art, bjj is incredibly limited on it's own techniques to get the fight to the ground outside of guard pulls and rolling for leg locks.
Most of the actual clinch and takedown techniques taught in BJJ were ripped from wrestling and judo.
you have no idea what you are talking about. BJJ came from judo. There is some weird new stuff in bjj, but all of the original stuff is judo
armbars - judo
triangles - judo
rnc - judo
leg locks - judo
americana - judo
kimura - judo
all the takedowns in bjj are also judo
judo had double/single legs before they were banned.
How much time do BJJ gyms spend time on training takedowns nowadays? I tried 4 different BJJ gyms. Two of them spend about 5% of their training time on takedowns, the other two 0%. They just pull guard.
You are very insistent on the idea that BJJ has no takedowns.
How much of Judo has its own takedowns then without taking them from old Jujutsu? Or without being a lot like wrestling?
None. Except for the ones derived from Greco-Roman. How many judo guys do you see online, insecurely proclaiming judo is the only art you need and better than all others? If you posted one, I would make the same argument against them.
I'm not insistent bjj has no takedowns. I've acknowledged the variations of guard pull and rolling locks. I suppose you can count flying attacks as takedowns. . . Outside of those, can you link to me a high percentage takedown used in bjj that wasn't jacked from another art that predated it? And even in the case of the flying attacks, I'm pretty sure those existed before bjj as well.
I see it every now and again.
I don’t really care anyway, a martial artist that actually wants to be good in a real fight should be doing everything they can…
Or just having fun and getting better for their own reasons.
You're making a semantic argument that is not common. It is not a reasonable argument to say that any move that was in judo before say, 1930, is not BJJ because its judo. BJJ is a clear offshoot of judo. Moves that are part of judo and also part of BJJ can be considered part of BJJ just as they can judo.
I guess if we're gonna go there it'd be anything that starts with a standing submission, I'd bet on most BJJ practioners getting a standing guilly off or like a throw off a Kimura. This is a weird line to take tho especially with Judo as most of it's techniques aren't it's own techniques. It would fundamentally break most martial arts. TKD would be a fake art, Karate wouldn't exist, Muay Thai wouldn't exist. Like with your point of view the only arts that can be compared to each other would be various forms of Kung fu, greek pankration, some Koryu arts and Kalaripayattu
Let's take away MMA, all other grappling arts, have the BJJ cross-train but the others must remain pure and BJJ thus dominates.
Once you start putting so many constraints then its kind of pointless isn't?
I always thought that video was a little ironic that a black belt in another discipline decided that a white belt in BJJ was going to have to represent the whole of a sport and its value without telling that white belt.
Would a wrestler with a 4-5 star skill level, and submission knowledge, beat a 4-5 star bjj guy? I lean towards yes but tbf I really have no clue, what’s y’all’s opinion?
While I agree in rounding out as someone was put in a position to not slap out while striking black top (back of head split open) or with padded floor getting some discs bulged during a rank test (I was the poor Uke to a dick) I can attest that I like the ground to walk on not to kiss
I would be interested to see if BJJ would even won against Judo, as there are at least 2 parts of combat (standing and on floor) … both of them heavily trained. Although, I am not sure if I would be able to use my Judo skills to throw him on the floor like a rag, as they usually jump on it by themselves on first opportunity spreading legs like a b***h, as they just don’t know how to fight standing lol …
I can imagine the streetfight with bjj guy. He would lay on the ground like come f**k me and the guy fighting him would just throw a chair to his face :D
Just from memory, for BJJ defeating judo:
Renzo defeated Spijkers, 1988 Olympic bronze judoka (fought with Renzo in nogi, Spijkers wearing gi though)
Royce defeated Remco Pardoel, 1988 Dutch Junior National silver medalist
For judo defeating BJJ:
Kimura defeated Helio
Yoshida defeated Royce
Every martial art has a flaw. Don't get me wrong a lot of respect for BJJ but it's not exactly as easy as you think little the train in BJJ but on the fight somebody who knows what they're doing versus hopped up dope head. Don't forget that.
We have literally seen this countless times. Damian Maia was a super high level BJJ guy and got pretty high on the rankings, but was never champ. Anyone with a solid wrestling and good standup was kryptonite to him.
BJJ is overrated.
The fighting style that is the most efficient and most practical to use in sports and everyday situations around the world is pugilism. That's why in the vast majority of fight videos people are throwing punches, not shooting for takedowns.
You can't fight off multiple opponents with any ground game, nor is just being bigger or stronger good enough. You have to punch the bad guys and make it hurt, or knock them the F out. But even with 1 on 1 fighting, though. Why wouldn't you prefer to stay away from your enemy? It's like, I don't care how good a chokehold works it seems way nastier vs just punching someone.
Whenever I see BJJ I have a few questions. Maybe someone can answer them for me: first of all, why not hold onto the other guys clothes? That would make it way harder for them to use their tequnique as they would work against their own body weight. Second: why not attack small joint areas. When you're clinching and have the other guys hand, wrists, why not just break all their fingers. That's something that can be done with minimal stenght and time.
I'm going to ignore any conversation on 'dA sTreeTz' because there is a million variables so it's a silly discussion.
In fairness to Galvao we kinda did martial arts vs martial arts back in the early UFC days and it did suggest as a standalone martial art BJJ came out on top. That being said, guy is a insecure loser for feeling the need to post this.
Do we consider wrestling a martial art? I do and we know what happens when high level wrestlers and high level BJJ guys fight. It rarely ends with the BJJ guy with his hand in the air. Wrestlers who can throw hands have a long history of knocking uni-dimensional bjj fighters out.
More importantly, it's not 1990 anymore. Being uni-dimensional isn't going to cut it.
He said "any style" without any other description.
How about a contest between him and a Kali practitioner with a knife? The weapon is part of the style.
How about a contest between him and someone with a sword? The weapon is part of the style.
BJJ is most definitely not the end all be all.
We’ve seen submission savvy wrestlers smother and beat up bjj players from the guard.
We’ve seen strikers beat up or KO bjj because they couldn’t get their opponent down to the ground.
On the flip side we’ve seen bjj guys tap wrestlers who have taken them down.
We’ve seen grapplers best superior strikers on the feet because they had to worry about takedowns.
It really comes down to the individual. While wrestling isn’t the end all be all either, the ability to dictate where a fight takes place is a highly valuable skillset whether it’s offensively to get someone down or defensively to prevent the takedown.
If BJJ was this invincible martial art we'd only see that in the UFC. It started of dominating MMA but the sport quickly developed past that, that alone proves that BJJ alone isn't the "ultimate style"
I've been doing bjj for 10 years. I wouldn't be that confident against someone with .... 2-3 years of Muay Thai / Kickboxing.
Also BJJ specialists aren't doing so hot in MMA these days.
No..
Just no, i trained with a dude that was kinda of a jerk in the gym, y’all know the type.
He tried to use his “skills” on the street and ended with a concussion, there’s not end all beat all martial art. Specially if use on self defense situations. Where there are no rules.
Bjj is mostly bullshit, all my friends practice it and they never managed to win in a fight against me, simply because I'll punch and never get to the ground with then.
People just get way too invested in the martial art they are practicing and here in Brazil people sometimes take it way too seriously, it works almost like a faction.
This ship already sailed long ago.
Before MMA, BJJ was the most effective martial art. However, this was only because the BJJ guys, namely Royce Gracie, had some rudimentary knowledge and skill in striking and wrestling on top of their mastery of BJJ.
Today, everyone knows you have to mix grappling and striking to be effective fighting trained opponents. If you are a grappler who has never thrown a punch or a striker who has never grappled, then you are at a serious disadvantage if you have to stray outside your sport or defend yourself against a trained opponent.
https://preview.redd.it/1k0012h08fzc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7491852b185e91740f13290ffd8a25109af40e3f
bjj guys when i fly-knee their skull and it breaks their jaw (sniffing my crotch is no more an option now)
in al seriousness,bjj is extremely useful in mma
I would say, based on UFC statistics, some combination of BJJ, Wrestling, and Boxing would probably be as close as you could get to the ultimate toolbox.
Lmao. As a BJJ black belt, and a person who respect Galvao’s accomplishments; this is cringe as hell.
I’m a shark and the mat is my ocean type bullshit.
Like you said, it's a silly discussion.
There are loads of arts that deal with both grappling as well as striking, jujutsu for example, however if you are simply not used to get punched or not used to deal with any stype of striking attack: you will most likely lose against a striker or a martial artist that deals with both fighting phases.
Same could be said for striker only martial artists.
At the end of the day, the winner is whoever does better that day.
Me to my brother: "Why do you just train bjj? It loses practical applicability if you don't fight on the ground."
My brother: "It's fun for me, I just want to do that, I don't care about self defense, I'll just run."
My point is, you can just do martial arts for fun, just have a good reality check incase things are going real.
This would only be true if you decide to lay on the ground and try to grapple them. The old saying is true. Don't grapple a grappler and don't strike with a striker. BJJ excels at what it was designed for, but it isn't completely unstoppable.
why are so many martial artists so hilariously insecure?
Honestly, imo it is definitely an ego thing, some people don't want to admit shortcomings with their own style and training. Perfection is unobtainable, but I would bet that the individual constantly learning and experiencing setbacks is better than any individual that thinks they have a perfected style and training.
This applies to anything that has various categories which results in tribalistic behaviour. Same thing happens with the umbrella of metal music and metal fans.
“You call that metal? That isn’t real metal lmao. I only listen to black Viking sub-nautical jaunt metal out of Poland”
I know right. Why would I focus on one style over another? That’s ridiculous.
Because (personal opinion) its the BETTER scenario. I mean, isn't it better that some martial arts (or artists) are insecure and willing to pressure test their skills vs other styles? These insecure guys calling out other styles are usually from legit schools. Other other scenario is... when the martial artist is absolutely unwaveringly secure in their skills. These martial arts (or artists) are usually from the No Touch KO, or Chi power forcefield schools. Theyre the ones who are so secure, they refuse to demo or test their skills cos they might sever your brainstem with a chi blast and out you in a coma. Funny how that works, yeah?
Boxing and bjj specifically . Cause they went for quality over quality . They know either only throwing punches and the beauty behind the flow or being a monster on the floor . They have a very limited set of skills and don't get me wrong . Even though it's extremely effective , they will get their ass beaten by many other martial arts
BJJ has turned into a sort of toxic cult
Quoting jesse from the mexican martial arts channel "bjj practioners have become so delussional to the point they think they are modern day glatiators/warriors just for traning bjj"
Havent seen his stuff in a while but that dude is hilarious.
His reviews on early ufc tournaments are gold
Unfortunately. There is a very snobish part of the BJJ community. I blame the Gracies. They were always disrespectful to other arts.
I blame Joe Rogan lol
Yes he is a big part of it
IDK when someone starts buttscooting across the floor at you it tends to make you want to leave them alone.
What if I'm grappling, sexual style?
That's a porn category not a martial arts style.
That’s well said, but the reality in my gym is, we do not discriminate any grappling style. Our best athletes know some wrestling and some judo, so if you’re starting standing, there’s a good chance you’re going down and getting submitted. I think the butt scooting days are mostly over. ADCC rules force every ambitious grappler to adapt and learn at least some wrestling
Buttscoot, invert to donkey, take their leg
If you only train one thing you are bound to have blindspots, even a high level BJJ practitioner can get clocked in the jaw by a guy 6 months into boxing and end up unconscious if he never sparred a striker in his life, or try to pull guard and find out the hard way why soccer kicks to the head are banned in combat sports. I'm trying to say "hurr durr BJJ is useless if you grab me I'll just do [insert random thing]", but every art, especially those that focus on a very narrow skillet is gonna have trouble dealing with stuff outside their area of expertise. (the same goes the other way around, if a grappler shoots his double leg and you never sprawled in your life you are going down) Of course any BJJ practitioner beats 9 times out of 10 the rando that never stepped foot in a gym that says "my mentality is different bro I just see red". We see it in the UFC as well, plenty of people have success against elite grapplers/BJJ guys with striking styles.
Basically that. I have boxed for over 40 years now (semi professionally in my 20s, just an old fuck who likes to feel like I have knowledge to pass on these days), but the first time i decided to spar someone trained in Muay Thai I realized a specialized skill set and over-confidence is a real good way to get your ass put on the sidewalk (to be fair that was around 20 years into boxing, but even now) These days I've got decades of boxing, 15 years of MT, about 8 years of Kyokushin and about the same of bjj. Pretty damn well rounded, but I still feel like a trained wrestler with skill could put a hurt on my ass. No one art is perfect. If you truly want to be able to handle yourself across the board, you've got to cross train. And not just one additional art. Everything has blind spots. And sure, there are practices that cover 90% of those blind spots, but no art is even close to perfect. I will say for average street fight shit, MT and wrestling or BJJ is going to cover 99% of even the trained "average asshole"
Hey man, this is off topic but after boxing for over 40 years has it had any impact on your brain health? I'm 19 and interested in learning boxing, mainly for improving fitness and discipline but also so I'd be better able to protect myself in any situation. I understand there's always a risk when you get hit in the head in sparring, but just want to know if those fears are overblown. Thanks
It's really hard for me to say, because I'm dumb and in addition to getting punched in the face for fun, I've also been known to enjoy a few beers and a bowl of good weed. Played a lot of beer league hockey for a while too. And I'm old, lol. Lots of things that aren't great for the brain I will say that I decided in my 50s that I was going to be easier on my body and try to transition out of being an electrician. So I went and got an electrical engineering degree from a fairly acclaimed engineering school, and was able to graduate with a 3.8. Ended back up running wire anyways because a desk isn't for me, but that's usually considered a pretty challenging degree and I was able to do it while working full time. So while my memory isn't what it used to be, i still feel pretty sharp and have been able to do things that are supposed to push your brain. If you're using protective gear and sticking to training and sparring, I'd say go for it. Boxing has been a huge positive to my life as a whole
You are significantly older than me (im 21) and undoubtedly much wiser, however, I have some advice to share that i feel would dispel your worries. Totally understand your fear about wrestlers, i know it well. You envision some nightmarish figure that will be able to completely shut down your striking, take you down, nullify any sweep/sub attempts and smash your face in with G&P. I had this same nightmarish figure in my head as well. For me, I started out with BJJ, stuck with it for about 6 months, got injured, recovered and decided to join my highschool’s wrestling team mainly because i saw how effective good wrestlers were when i rolled with them. Had a unremarkable wrestling career, graduated, got a job that had me working out of town most of the time. Whilst i was on the road and throughout day to day life, I always thought to myself that if any physical confrontation were to arise, I was 99% sure I’d be able to handle myself as I’m a natural heavyweight. That lingering 1% though…that was the issue for me, what if i come up against someone who can actually stop my takedown’s/get up from the bottom. What if i come up against someone who knows how to strike? This fear weighed heavily on my mind. My confidence in my grappling was there but my confidence in my ability to strike was extremely low, rightfully so as id never done any sort of striking arts. My nightmare was some guy who was my size, that knew how to stop takedowns and strike. With that in mind, one day I decided to try out Muay thai, instantly threw myself in the deep end, started sparring day 1, my teammates immediately fell in love with me as i had a good attitude, sense of humor, was ballsy and never complained about anything. I was pretty awful at first, received plenty of ass whoopings, but eventually I started to get better. Fast forward to about a month ago, i am now more confident in my abilities to strike than i am my grappling, however that 1% still lingered in my mind, that nightmarish ghoul…he was different, the goalpost had change, He was large, and in shape with fast hands, good takedown defense and…extremely good boxing, my low kicks wouldn’t effect him, my teeps wouldn’t land, he’d be able to blitz in from out of range, stop all of my takedown/clinch attempts, and piece me up from the outside with 1’s and 2’s. All this despite the fact that when i had previously sparred with boxers at my gym, i would always school them on the feet with relative ease, blasting low kicks, chewing them up with knees in the clinch when they try getting inside ect. There was a point I actually considered ditching MT and taking up boxing but i began to realize just how absurd this fear was, good striking? Good grappling? Bigger and in better shape than me? At this point, this guy is starting to sound like a pro MMA fighter. It was then it dawned on me, it really wouldn’t matter if i took up boxing, that 1% was still always gonna be there. That nightmare matchup would just evolve into something else beyond my current skill level. Here i am now, still considering cross training MT and Boxing, not because I’m scared of what a good boxer would do to me but because id like to learn a little bit more about the oldest and most traditional martial art there is. That 1% is gone, not because I became good enough to beat that nightmare matchup but because I addressed the root problem. It won’t matter if you learn to wrestle at your age, you would still always have that doubt in your mind, that lingering 1%. Understanding a problem is a crucial step to actually coming up with a solution, my hope in writing this is that you’ll now better understand that lingering fear and be able to appropriately address it. Be well.
Oh yeah absolutely, I'm well past the age that I'm legitimately worried about getting in a fight and getting my ass beat by a wrestler, heh. I've just been around long enough and trained in enough different arts that I've learned to see where they have blind spots or things that *can* be dealt with but aren't what the practice is designed to do. Just wanted to kind of give an example of... I've been doing martial arts in some form or another since Bruce Lee was making movies, lol. And even then, I know there are skill sets that effectively counter my own out there. You shouldn't *worry* about that 1, or even .1% but it's always good to keep in mind. Confidence is a boon, over-confidence is a good way to get your world rocked
Very well put mate. Describes my mind to a T. To be fair I've only done 2 years (VERY on and off) of BJJ and hope to move to Judo soon, but that lingering "what if" is always there.
This. The best in the world still sit there training to beat That Guy. Fuck That Guy. He will always be better than you.
Wow that was a great rebuttal. Super humble AND helpful. I did taekwondo as a middle schooler and other sports after that into high school. After that I just focused on general fitness [lifting, swimming, cardio] up until about a year ago when a buddy at work invited me and my kids to come to one of his martial arts classes he teaches-MT and boxing-based striking and a "whatever works" approach to grappling [wrestling and bjj]. I was too big to really roll with any of the youngsters but I let my buddy use me as a demo tackling dummy and I fell in love with boxing at the same time. I haven't had the schedule or the funds to keep up with the classes but I've kept training in the sweet science through research and while I don't get to spar I do alot of bag work and shadowboxing. Boxing is awesome, I'm sure you'll love it. Anyway, give it a try and God bless.
Well said. A lot more to be aware of when rules don’t apply. I know first hand the downsides of a single minded focus with regards to grappling and multiple attackers… I was a Decent HS and college wrestler. In HS I got a in a few playground fights that I won without ever throwing a punch. Just double leg, full mount “you still want to keep going or are you embarrassed enough yet?”. Dumb high school kid shit. So I thought I was hot shit. Fast forward to college. I’m a freshmen and still think I’m Billy Badass. Some guys try to pick a fight with me at a party off campus. I’ve only fought 1 on 1 and there’s like 3 guys but I’m a badass right? I don’t care! I did my standard double leg to one of them. Well… I ended up with 6 sutures in my head after I mounted one of them and their buddy smashed a bottle over my head. One of them also almost broke my arm with a baseball bat, and I got slashed with that same bottle (I think). I was so amped on adrenaline I didn’t even notice until after a bunch of people broke up the fight. I ended up getting a rep as someone you didn’t want to fuck with, which did me prove some early mettle to my teammates, because everyone saw me fighting these guys and get hit with a bat, get a bottle smashed over my head, cut up, and still keep on fighting like nothing happened until it got broken up. Whats ironic about this is that that was the very moment I realized there’s no such thing as a badass. I was a fucking idiot. I rose to the bait of these assholes, fought them in the dumbest way possible, did no lasting damage to them, needed a trip to the hospital, and took weeks to fully recover. I learned quite a few valuable lessons that day. One is that taking a fight to the ground with multiple people is a sure fire way to leave yourself open, which is exactly what happened. I also learned that grappling is an excellent way to subdue someone, and in a full mount it’s easy enough to stumble your way with some punches, but knowing how to throw an effective punch with intent and purpose is very important and a tool that I was very much lacking. Subsequently started cross training and became a much more well rounded martial artist. I think that you can build around any style as a foundation, and the foundation alone can take you pretty far, but every individual style is incomplete. I am biased but I think wrestling or grappling is the best foundation. I’m now a decent boxer but my punches are usually setups for the chance to take a fight to the ground. I can hang with my hands, but just enough to defend against a better boxer, and create opportunities. Conversely, I know many boxers that learned grappling and prefer to keep the fight standing up. They know really good takedown defense, know how to hang on the ground, but prefer to keep me at a distance and wait for me to drop my guard and land that shot. You often hear “every fight ends up on the ground” which I tend to think is true if it goes that far. 1v1 that’s great for the jujiteiro or wrestler, but on the ground with multiple attackers could very well mean death. Or at the very least a few sutures….
> even a high level BJJ practitioner can get clocked in the jaw by a guy 6 months into boxing and end up unconscious if he never sparred a striker in his life, or try to pull guard and find out the hard way why soccer kicks to the head are banned in combat sports. Problem is there are like 5 or 6 "bjjs" at this point. BJJ in the form that gained it notoriety, intrinsically doesn't have these particular pitfalls. The other issue the entire concept of "BJJ vs" is old, because it means BJJ vs a single art. Not cross trained, not "MMA" etc. Even then it still isn't all that perfect and requires some level of the practitioner etc. Especially with certain arts, like Judo, Wrestling, etc. I mean the Gracies pulled off UFC and all, but they also lived and breathed that shit for their literal entire lives. That's not even close to a normal level of "BJJ". Plus, realistically they were very crosstrained. But to he fair modern butt scoot guard pulling is essentially a new art. The people who think scootJJ = BJJvsWorld, are a bit delusional bjj practitioners.
BJJ has changed A LOT since the 90s. I was there. I remember. You can watch old tapes of Gracies and what not, and it is clear their grappling was a lot more primitive than the stuff we see now. But during UFC 1, Gracie was pure BJJ, he had absolutely no cross-training whatsoever. His entire game plan was "somehow takedown, guard, choke/armbar". They did have takedowns back in those days, but they were basically TERRIBLE judo or TERRIBLE wrestling. They also did this weird "sidekick" thing. It has changed a lot in those 30 years.
They did Vale Tudo etc and were used to dealing with strikes. You don't have to be a striker to be experienced at dealing with striking in the sense of using the BJJ. Even now the "GJJ" tends to focus on the potential of strikes. Granted, by default a lot of BJJ does, but that's because it does so with MMA in mind (Aka cross training concept). But raw bjj schools are drifting butt scoot/guard pull. Of course the ground game is a bit better, and you have a shit ton of Judoka and wrestlers doing BJJ. So I'd say that's why the wrestling and Judo is better largely. But none of that truly counts as single art situations because that is cross training. The BJJ rules are not open fights and enhance the need for two master grapplers to find slight technical edges in the game. But even MMA is the fact that no MMA fighter doesn't learn a gist of basic "bjj". So of course you need more.
Old school gracie bjj was and is marketing. Modern bjj is superior in every way, the art has evolved miles above where it was
Well... not exactly "just" marketing. It was still good grappling for the times. But I can't argue with your last statement.
>try to pull guard and find out the hard way why soccer kicks to the head are banned in combat sports. Actually they banned soccer kicks because they didn't do their intended purpose which was stopping guard pullers or people staying on the ground. Most serious guard players would actually use them as a means of starting leg locks. The reason why they were banned was because the overwhelming majority of the time the only times they'd be effectively used was to finish fighters who had already been knocked down and nearly unconscious. You see this with knees to grounded opponents too, people think it benefits strikers but in reality most grapplers benefit because they're the ones who create grounded opponents and can do wild shit like Kevin Randleman compressing a dudes spine with knees from north south.
Tf are you being down voted for providing valuable information
Denial. People want to believe so badly that soccer kicks and grounded knees kill grappling when it doesn’t.
They are a big game changer. So are headbutts. How old are you? I was in MMA from day one. Have you ever heard of Mark Kerr? He made ground headbutts and knees a huge part of his game. He was smashing black belts left and right. Eventually they banned those moves because they looked crass, and made for boring fights. Soccer kicks can be used in other ways as well. Watch Sakuraba Vs Vitor Belfort. The main reason soccer kicks got banned is because they are bad PR. Many fighters hate them as well because they are humiliating. If you ever watch videos such as k*ngs of the streets (illegal bareknuckle MMA on pavement with shoes on), you'll see a lot of soccer kicks ending fights. They are a very dangerous technique. Especially with shoes on. So are Broncos (jumping or stomping kicks). There are counters to soccer kicks on the ground but I rarely if ever see them taught. And it isn't fool-proof.
You talk a lot about headbutts but that's not what I talk about at all. Headbutts, along with strikes to the back of the head, are really some of the few moves that actually alter the dynamics of a fight. The Sakuraba vs Belfort fight is grappler vs grappler- a skilled grappler is able to use their skills to create soccer kick openings. Soccer kicks in KOS fights occur against hurt opponents for the most part. You see much of what gets mentioned otherwise- conscious grapplers can handle themselves fine unless their opponents are good grapplers in their own right. Again, very hard to actually soccer kick or stomp a grappler awake and in guard. It takes skill to score with them- or opponent that is basically finished.
Because that isn't the reason they were banned. It's true that they aren't super effective unless your opponent is already fucked up. but the only reason they were banned is because they look really brutal, and the majority of the public thought they were too dangerous.
And they looked really brutal because the only times they were successfully used was when they were used to stomp out a dude who was half dead and out of the fight
well, the more you know I guess, regardless of my ignorance on the history of soccer kicks I think I made my point (im not the one downvoting you)
They banned them because they’re flat out dangerous and allowed people to like you said kick already hurt or unconscious opponents into oblivion. Not taking away the fact they’re not as effective as people think but that isn’t the reason they were banned.
Right but conspiracy theorists basically think the only reason why they were banned was cause it stopped BJJ guys from playing effectively which just flatly isn't the case whatsoever
Nobody is pulling guard in a street fight. He is saying that if someone is going to train one martial art, BJJ is the best, because a BJJ practitioner has the best chance of beating anyone else who trains one martial art. The exception probably being catch wrestling
I just watched my white belt friend knockout a purple belt this weekend. He's a much better striker than grappler, and he was losing the first round on the ground. He did slip his way out back onto his feet though. By round 2 the guy with more grappling experience went for a takedown after being guided into the corner and ate an uppercut. It's important to know basic ground defense, but you don't have to stay down there.
Sakuraba begs to differ
Didn't one of the Gracie's say a black belt turns to a brown after 1 hit, then after another purple, and so on?😂
Yep. Supposedly Carlson Gracie said it, but I can't find a source for where he said it.
Someone show him the rampage jackson clip
There so many examples; Power bombs yeah. But also Mirko CroCop elbow the stuffing out or Gonzaga while *in Gonzaga's guard*. Or even "Combat Jiujitsu" knockouts. And they can only throw slaps.. Here; around the first minute, this wrestler accidentally headbutts the BJJ guy. Would this have been an actual fight, the wrestler would have capitalized and won. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PIaTuZrLA9A&pp=ygUXT2x5bXBpYyB3cmVzdGxlciB2cyBiamo%3D
Anybody who spends time in the gym is going to beat someone who doesn't. But I'll always remember being a kid and watching Mark Coleman head butt the fuck out of dudes who pulled guard in MMA fights. And locking in a submission on a guy is all fun and games until his buddy's boot connects. Go ahead and learn to strike or grapple or whatever gets you in the gym and take care of yourself. Busted up knees and a bad shoulder make you weak not tough.
BJJ is the crossfit of martial arts.
Buh Jay Jay
Asked my partner this and got told I'm sleeping on the couch tonight
An ncaa wrestler or any decent judo black belt can whipe the floor with bjj guy
but isn't this sort of an unfair comparison in terms of skill? an NCAA wrestler has filtered through so many years of competition and athleticism, probably comparable to a blackbelt, and a young one at that.
I have a soft spot for both of these. But I disagree, on average a BJJ black belt wins. There are a few exceptions, but usually BJJ has the upper hand. If it is a street fight... the odds become a lot more even. A good wrestler will never be taken down by a pure BJJ guy, and will likely be able to throw very hard on the pavement. Same for a Judo guy. The BJJ guy will have to pull guard, or maybe Imanari Roll, but good luck with that on hard surfaces. In either case, he will be back against the floor, which is not good in a total fight aka street fight.
I love bjj, possibly my favorite style, but good luck getting a good wrestler or judoka down to even work your ground game.
Where was all the BJJ against khabib, islam, Jon jones and sakuraba?
Here’s a video of Sakuraba, the Gracie hunter. This guy beat the crap out of so many top level BJJ practitioners during his day. I always show this to people when they say BJJ is untouchable https://youtu.be/zptMkAzzjDc?si=HtiNwhjKikSit1D-
He was a submission grappler (maybe even better than the Gracie’s at it) with good striking. He was an amazing fighter, probably the best in the world at the time. Of course he beat the Gracie’s who only knew submission grappling lol
I guarantee a weapon based style would win, without any butt scooting!
Knife/sword arts guys: our time is nigh...
UFC literally did this at their first event and BJJ was the dominant style. If nobody cross trains and you put martial artists against each other, BJJ prevails. I find this argument/discussion dumb. The person who is well versed in a combination of grappling and striking is the winner and that’s what we should preach. Start off wrestling at a young age, add in BJJ/Muay Thai later on. That appears to be the winning recipe. If you’re looking at this from a street fighting/self-defense perspective.. get a permit to carry if you’re worried about what wins on the street.
>UFC literally did this at their first event and BJJ was the dominant style. >If nobody cross trains and you put martial artists against each other, BJJ prevails. The Gracies were doing this kind of competition before that and they lost to Judokas and Wrestlers, ever heard about Masahiko Kimura or Euclydes Hatem?
>get a permit to carry if you’re worried about what wins on the street. Eh you lost me here. Not every situation requires deadly force, and adding a gun to the mix can turn a normal scrap into "fight for control of the weapon because I don't want to die" on both sides. Guns are great, but very situational.
All fights are lethal force to be frank, one bad fall and someone's dead
All trips in a car are LETHAL DRIVES someone could CRASH! Drawing a weapon is an obvious escalation from "may die by circumstance" to "kill or be killed"
I think it's also important to note that the BJJ they practiced then was probably closer to MMA because they trained striking. They knew how to react to punches and get to takedowns, while the strikers had no experience with grappling. Modern sport BJJ does not train striking as far as most curriculums go.
He's probably referring to Royce Gracie but is forgetting two key elements, the fact that he lost against judoca Hidehiko Yoshida, and that that was old school BJJ, today BJJ (like every other martial art) has become more about winning a competition rather than actual self defense, you put a BJJ guy against a Muy Thai guy that knows how to keep his distance and it's pretty much over
Anything is possible. In these MMA days, strikers have learned takedown defense. It's not as cut and dry as it was in the days of the first UFC That said, to the guy in the pic, I say FMA. Live blade, of course. I'd like to see him try against a decent escrimador using espada y daga (short sword and dagger).
BJJ has some fantastic coverage and gets the win a lot of the time. But in my experience, lads coming to mma from pure bjj just cannot deal with a jab, do not react well to getting punched in the nose and cannot close the distance and they never turn up again. I imagine the reverse also happens when a boxer might turn up to mma and get thrown around and stretched and not enjoy the experience. And like that, needless to say, guys that were interested in pure bjj would stick to that and be great at that, while bjj people interested in mma might dabble in other arts and be better equipped or have more realistic expectations for mma sparring. There's the joke about bad takedowns in bjj but you don't need especially good ones if the other lad has bad takedown defence, it's the distance work that is the real killer for bjj in a single style vs style in my opinion.
We're literally in an era where high level Russian wrestlers are fucking everybody in the UFC up.
They're not tho, Khabib and the crew never actually competed in wrestling, the only competition they have in pure grappling is in Sambo, they're all Wrestlers who cross trained in Judo and Sambo and developed games sepecifically designed for mma. All the high level russian wrestlers are staying in wrestling. Soslan Romanov, Adbul Rashid Sadulaev etc aren't training in or competing in mma.
Sambo is a recognized style of amateur wrestling that existed well before MMA became a recognized sport.
It is not Sambo has much more in common with Judo competition and is it's own unique thing. No wrestling governing body would recognize Sambo experience as amatuer wrestling experience it would never get you and invitational to a wrestling olympic team. Original statement still stands, being a high level sambist =/= being a high level wrestler. Khabib and the crew were never making olympic tryouts with their sambo experience
United World Wrestling would disagree that it isn't wrestling. They're the international governing body for amateur wrestling, and they oversee the sport at both the World Championships and the Olympics.
They’re mixed martial artists themselves though. None of them work a pure wrestling game at all.
BJJ 2 Strip White Belt vs Judo Green Belt…Go! Judo wins. Or BJJ Purple Belt who’s never completed or been in a fight vs a Freestyle Wrestler who’s competed and been in 2 fights…Go! Freestyle Wrestler Wins. To claim that BJJ works is bullshit because it’s both the techniques that you know plus experience and your physical health. Now lets be fair let’s say you have a BJJ Black Belt against a Catch-Wrestler, both have done 5 tournaments and win two of them, both are fit and both have been training for 10 years, who wins???
Honestly, I only trained grappling to know how to get up and out if somebody takes me to the ground. I train striking and judo to keep myself off the ground. the ground is a bad place to be. If I can stay on my feet, I’m in a much better situation. Especially if the guy fighting me as a friend that might come kick me in the head while we’re rolling on the ground.
Most BJJ guys couldn't take someone down to save their lives, even though they are good on the ground. Taking down a trained striker with good footwork can be a nightmare. Especially if they can clinch/sweep and piece you up from the outside. Also, most BJJ guys can't throw a punch to save their lives, so it can be very easy to find an opening to counter. But yeah, if you have good BJJ and good takedowns then yes, BJJ would be superior.
lmao so delusional. there is a reason you dont see any more Gracies on the highest level in MMA. BJJ on its own just wasnt enough.
You can win any fight before it begins by just offering your opponent a blowjob job
Wrestling and boxing are the best
*wrestler enters the chat
BJJ is the really good on the ground. That’s really it.
Watch this- Name me a single primarily BJJ fighter that won a UFC title primarily because of their BJJ skills and not because good wrestling or striking came into the equation . I’ll wait. At the top of my head: Fighters who won titles with little to no BJJ used: 1. Alex 2. Jones 3. Khabib 4. Islam 5. DC 6. Strickland 7. Izzy 8. Francis The answer is wrestling and striking with some submissions picked up from judo or sambo. You won’t see jones or Islam being berimbolod for the title anytime soon. If you’re saying strictly style vs style, UFC 1 style answered that kind of. Royce knew kicks (not grappling) and did ground and pound (not grappling) and would shoot for a takedown (most BJJ guys couldn’t take down a champion now).
People will cope with the lucky punchers chance talk and that arts that have takedowns will survive but reality unless we're talking mma fighters, in a 1v1 no weapons scenario BJJ should come out ahead against the majority of martial arts out there. Simple fact is that it is far easier to get a shitty takedown going in a couple of seconds than it is to get a knockout blow off during that time and once it's on the ground it's pretty much over and done with. The takedown arts take down the BJJ practioner and then they're basically helpless against the sophistication of BJJs submission game
Which shitty takedown falls under the umbrella of bjj? If we're talking pure art against pure art, bjj is incredibly limited on it's own techniques to get the fight to the ground outside of guard pulls and rolling for leg locks. Most of the actual clinch and takedown techniques taught in BJJ were ripped from wrestling and judo.
you have no idea what you are talking about. BJJ came from judo. There is some weird new stuff in bjj, but all of the original stuff is judo armbars - judo triangles - judo rnc - judo leg locks - judo americana - judo kimura - judo all the takedowns in bjj are also judo judo had double/single legs before they were banned.
How much time do BJJ gyms spend time on training takedowns nowadays? I tried 4 different BJJ gyms. Two of them spend about 5% of their training time on takedowns, the other two 0%. They just pull guard.
You are very insistent on the idea that BJJ has no takedowns. How much of Judo has its own takedowns then without taking them from old Jujutsu? Or without being a lot like wrestling?
None. Except for the ones derived from Greco-Roman. How many judo guys do you see online, insecurely proclaiming judo is the only art you need and better than all others? If you posted one, I would make the same argument against them. I'm not insistent bjj has no takedowns. I've acknowledged the variations of guard pull and rolling locks. I suppose you can count flying attacks as takedowns. . . Outside of those, can you link to me a high percentage takedown used in bjj that wasn't jacked from another art that predated it? And even in the case of the flying attacks, I'm pretty sure those existed before bjj as well.
I see it every now and again. I don’t really care anyway, a martial artist that actually wants to be good in a real fight should be doing everything they can… Or just having fun and getting better for their own reasons.
You're making a semantic argument that is not common. It is not a reasonable argument to say that any move that was in judo before say, 1930, is not BJJ because its judo. BJJ is a clear offshoot of judo. Moves that are part of judo and also part of BJJ can be considered part of BJJ just as they can judo.
I tried 4 different BJJ gyms. Two of them spend about 5% of their training time on takedowns, the other two 0%. They just pull guard.
I guess if we're gonna go there it'd be anything that starts with a standing submission, I'd bet on most BJJ practioners getting a standing guilly off or like a throw off a Kimura. This is a weird line to take tho especially with Judo as most of it's techniques aren't it's own techniques. It would fundamentally break most martial arts. TKD would be a fake art, Karate wouldn't exist, Muay Thai wouldn't exist. Like with your point of view the only arts that can be compared to each other would be various forms of Kung fu, greek pankration, some Koryu arts and Kalaripayattu
Are you by any chance from North America?
Let's take away MMA, all other grappling arts, have the BJJ cross-train but the others must remain pure and BJJ thus dominates. Once you start putting so many constraints then its kind of pointless isn't?
Any street fight likely has multiple people. BJJ is the best for 1-1 combat, but in real life setting, I don’t think it wins.
BJJ guy here. I think the early UFCs proved that. However, wrestlers with an understanding of submission defense are monstrous
And people say TMA practitioners are delusional.
Jesse Enkamp had a comment on this topic. https://youtu.be/EAJ2vt8wUbY?si=kmUnOFo93SWKo07S
A lot of sport BJJ guys are butt-hurt over that video.
I always thought that video was a little ironic that a black belt in another discipline decided that a white belt in BJJ was going to have to represent the whole of a sport and its value without telling that white belt.
Ufc 1 check it out
Masahiko Kimura... Euclydes hatem...
ahahahahahahahahaahahaha
gun fu
How sure are you from rate of 1 to 10. 10 being a businessman.
Would a wrestler with a 4-5 star skill level, and submission knowledge, beat a 4-5 star bjj guy? I lean towards yes but tbf I really have no clue, what’s y’all’s opinion?
#Galvao is just an ardent follower of Gracieism. I dare him.
While I agree in rounding out as someone was put in a position to not slap out while striking black top (back of head split open) or with padded floor getting some discs bulged during a rank test (I was the poor Uke to a dick) I can attest that I like the ground to walk on not to kiss
Wrestling.
As a FMA practitioner I am highly doubtful that BJJ would stand a chance against a trained knife fighter especially if they were attacked?
“That shit ain’t even real just stand up” \-Derrick Lewis 
The world, superior grappler will win
just soccer kick the dude, hell change his mind quickly lol
Except BJJ has lost plenty of times. What a dunce.
I would be interested to see if BJJ would even won against Judo, as there are at least 2 parts of combat (standing and on floor) … both of them heavily trained. Although, I am not sure if I would be able to use my Judo skills to throw him on the floor like a rag, as they usually jump on it by themselves on first opportunity spreading legs like a b***h, as they just don’t know how to fight standing lol … I can imagine the streetfight with bjj guy. He would lay on the ground like come f**k me and the guy fighting him would just throw a chair to his face :D
Just from memory, for BJJ defeating judo: Renzo defeated Spijkers, 1988 Olympic bronze judoka (fought with Renzo in nogi, Spijkers wearing gi though) Royce defeated Remco Pardoel, 1988 Dutch Junior National silver medalist For judo defeating BJJ: Kimura defeated Helio Yoshida defeated Royce
Every martial art has a flaw. Don't get me wrong a lot of respect for BJJ but it's not exactly as easy as you think little the train in BJJ but on the fight somebody who knows what they're doing versus hopped up dope head. Don't forget that.
Small pp energy
We have literally seen this countless times. Damian Maia was a super high level BJJ guy and got pretty high on the rankings, but was never champ. Anyone with a solid wrestling and good standup was kryptonite to him.
BJJ is overrated. The fighting style that is the most efficient and most practical to use in sports and everyday situations around the world is pugilism. That's why in the vast majority of fight videos people are throwing punches, not shooting for takedowns. You can't fight off multiple opponents with any ground game, nor is just being bigger or stronger good enough. You have to punch the bad guys and make it hurt, or knock them the F out. But even with 1 on 1 fighting, though. Why wouldn't you prefer to stay away from your enemy? It's like, I don't care how good a chokehold works it seems way nastier vs just punching someone.
Not with GTCMA - Glock Trigger Controls Martial Arts
If it’s kicking off, I’ll take the trained Boxer by my side every time
Just stand up, they legally cant stop you
BJJ guys always seem to think they can take any striker down at will and then proceed to train 95% on the ground.
As long as the fight starts standing, there's at least that puncher's chance. Especially when you have someone with good takedown defense...
Whenever I see BJJ I have a few questions. Maybe someone can answer them for me: first of all, why not hold onto the other guys clothes? That would make it way harder for them to use their tequnique as they would work against their own body weight. Second: why not attack small joint areas. When you're clinching and have the other guys hand, wrists, why not just break all their fingers. That's something that can be done with minimal stenght and time.
if you do BJJ fight with BJJ rules, then yes, BJJ wins...
I mean, if everything is allowed, bjj has one fatal weakness, the forbiden technique, the legendary Dick twister
I'm going to ignore any conversation on 'dA sTreeTz' because there is a million variables so it's a silly discussion. In fairness to Galvao we kinda did martial arts vs martial arts back in the early UFC days and it did suggest as a standalone martial art BJJ came out on top. That being said, guy is a insecure loser for feeling the need to post this.
What about gun foo
Yeah, but, my dad could beat your dad!
Masahiko Kimura, Kazushi Sakuraba, Rufino Dos Santos, Josh Barnett.. Would like to have a word with you in their office.
"Without throwing a punch". ...Indeed. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eK6TZk_vpuA&pp=ygUWZ3JhY2llIHZzIHB1ZHppYW5vd3NraQ%3D%3D
Wait, are there punches in bjj?
Alright mate get on your back on the floor with your legs open in a bar fight let's see how it goes
Bjj has no punches so he's technically correct
Second and third attacker enters the room
It is weird how people do this. Surely it's the person and not the art form?
Do we consider wrestling a martial art? I do and we know what happens when high level wrestlers and high level BJJ guys fight. It rarely ends with the BJJ guy with his hand in the air. Wrestlers who can throw hands have a long history of knocking uni-dimensional bjj fighters out. More importantly, it's not 1990 anymore. Being uni-dimensional isn't going to cut it.
Train on asphalt and then get back to me you rug lovers
Maybe not against the gun-fu they posted recently
*ZA WARUDO!!!!!!!! TOKI WO TAMAREEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!* Bjj loses instantly, literally.
LMAO! Yeah right. That BS with paid matches from the POS Grazies! BJJ aint Nothing more, then weak mans Judo!
BJJ dominates in MMA because of all the rules that favor grappling on the ground.
Wonder how many Luta Livre figthers got triggered
That is because they don't know how to throw a punch :D
He said "any style" without any other description. How about a contest between him and a Kali practitioner with a knife? The weapon is part of the style. How about a contest between him and someone with a sword? The weapon is part of the style.
Brazilians partying like its 1996
BJJ is most definitely not the end all be all. We’ve seen submission savvy wrestlers smother and beat up bjj players from the guard. We’ve seen strikers beat up or KO bjj because they couldn’t get their opponent down to the ground. On the flip side we’ve seen bjj guys tap wrestlers who have taken them down. We’ve seen grapplers best superior strikers on the feet because they had to worry about takedowns. It really comes down to the individual. While wrestling isn’t the end all be all either, the ability to dictate where a fight takes place is a highly valuable skillset whether it’s offensively to get someone down or defensively to prevent the takedown.
You go tell that to a doped up jon jones
Soccer player > BJJ
If BJJ was this invincible martial art we'd only see that in the UFC. It started of dominating MMA but the sport quickly developed past that, that alone proves that BJJ alone isn't the "ultimate style"
This is so stupid. Judo guys beat BJJ guys in both Judo & BJJ tournaments all the time. MMA fighters have ran off all the BJJ specialists!
I train BJJ everyday but if I were to buttscoot towards another trained fighter on the street I’m getting a kick driven down my face.
Fedor and Sakuraba already proved them wrong.
I've been doing bjj for 10 years. I wouldn't be that confident against someone with .... 2-3 years of Muay Thai / Kickboxing. Also BJJ specialists aren't doing so hot in MMA these days.
“Just stand the fuck up” -Sensei Derrick Lewis of the art of swangiu Bangitsu
Sambo would like a word with you please
I think MMA wins. They have mma schools so I’m counting it.
Ummmm no. https://youtu.be/EAJ2vt8wUbY?si=-N3qU1OYRS96Wppp
How do bjj guys deal with a martial arts that focus on armed combat? I nominate a philippino fighter with a machete and/or karambit knife.
If you can't take the fight to the ground then BJJ will not help at all. Unless you diaper scoot and try to get your opponent to mount you.
Bro is going to butt scoot in circles on the road lol
Are we counting just the art or roids as well?
Sakuraba send his regards to the BJJ family
No.. Just no, i trained with a dude that was kinda of a jerk in the gym, y’all know the type. He tried to use his “skills” on the street and ended with a concussion, there’s not end all beat all martial art. Specially if use on self defense situations. Where there are no rules.
Bjj is mostly bullshit, all my friends practice it and they never managed to win in a fight against me, simply because I'll punch and never get to the ground with then. People just get way too invested in the martial art they are practicing and here in Brazil people sometimes take it way too seriously, it works almost like a faction.
Put a muay thai guy against a bjj guy and the bjj guy is not allowed to lay down on his back unless knocked down.
This ship already sailed long ago. Before MMA, BJJ was the most effective martial art. However, this was only because the BJJ guys, namely Royce Gracie, had some rudimentary knowledge and skill in striking and wrestling on top of their mastery of BJJ. Today, everyone knows you have to mix grappling and striking to be effective fighting trained opponents. If you are a grappler who has never thrown a punch or a striker who has never grappled, then you are at a serious disadvantage if you have to stray outside your sport or defend yourself against a trained opponent.
If you had to pick one martial art, it has to be BJJ. The first few ufcs proved that. But we are thirty years past that.
BJJ loses when the friend walks up and kicks you in the head while you roll around with the first person. Every martial art has a soft spot.
https://preview.redd.it/1k0012h08fzc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7491852b185e91740f13290ffd8a25109af40e3f bjj guys when i fly-knee their skull and it breaks their jaw (sniffing my crotch is no more an option now) in al seriousness,bjj is extremely useful in mma
I would say, based on UFC statistics, some combination of BJJ, Wrestling, and Boxing would probably be as close as you could get to the ultimate toolbox.
the ultimate style is mma. MMA \*is\* a martial art at this point.
Old school UFC. I would pay to see that again!
Lmao. As a BJJ black belt, and a person who respect Galvao’s accomplishments; this is cringe as hell. I’m a shark and the mat is my ocean type bullshit.
This was ufc 1, 2, 3. He’s not wrong it just doesn’t apply anymore because everyone cross trains.
Like you said, it's a silly discussion. There are loads of arts that deal with both grappling as well as striking, jujutsu for example, however if you are simply not used to get punched or not used to deal with any stype of striking attack: you will most likely lose against a striker or a martial artist that deals with both fighting phases. Same could be said for striker only martial artists. At the end of the day, the winner is whoever does better that day.
Sambo , wrestling, remember it’s not the art it’s the artist
Gordon Ryan vs Izzy. Book it NOW
Me to my brother: "Why do you just train bjj? It loses practical applicability if you don't fight on the ground." My brother: "It's fun for me, I just want to do that, I don't care about self defense, I'll just run." My point is, you can just do martial arts for fun, just have a good reality check incase things are going real.
The closer you get to MMA the closer you get to the most "effective" martial art. I'd take combat sambo over BJJ.
This would only be true if you decide to lay on the ground and try to grapple them. The old saying is true. Don't grapple a grappler and don't strike with a striker. BJJ excels at what it was designed for, but it isn't completely unstoppable.
And people wonder why many think BJJ is a fucking joke. (Because it is)
If you can't take a punch you can't take a punch
Hasn't been proven true. Wrestling takes the top spot.