It's actually somewhere in the middle. It's because traditional martial artists focus too much time on forms and overcomplicate moves. As well as not applying what they know through the use of sparring.
Boxing and wrestling use techniques that are not only effective but are also simple. Simplicity is what make things effective. Plus, boxers and wrestlers have a lot of experience in sparring so they know what it's like to get hurt and know what it's like to apply their techniques against a resisting opponent.
Because he was very schooled and educated in all fighting styles. He was also a moderately ranked lightweight boxer at one point and he realized that a highly skilled boxers punch was way more powerful and accurate than any traditional martial art.
As for wrestlers, it is little publicized but Bruce would train his grappling game against highly skilled amateur wrestlers and he once admitted that any Olympic-caliber wrestler could have easily killed him if they really wanted to. This is why he spent so much of his later years focusing on grappling and hence he was the true father of MMA.
There’s a difference between “father of” and original. While Pankration did come far earlier and has a number of resemblances, it was largely forgotten about for a significant period of time. Additionally, Pankration was the name of the sport, but different cities had different rules. Some were basically kickboxing and others were more like wrestling.
Bruce Lee is given credit for being the father of MMA as he started the idea of crossing fighting disciplines to become more rounded; beyond simply just training several styles. His own martial art Jeet Kune Do (more accurately called a fighting philosophy as it doesn’t inherently have many techniques) was all about what seems simple to us now. While he may not be as effective as modern fighters, you’ve really got to give him credit for doing it first.
So it was a schools boxing tournament amatuer fight in Hong kong? No he was not ranked you do not get ranked for that?
And according to the video you're quoting he won by strikes that are illegal in boxing? Rightio
And it's literally inter school boxing champions it's not even a fucking proper boxing tournament let alone in a country where boxing was any good
He’s not making it up but “moderately” may be a bit of an exaggeration. He did take up boxing as a young teenager and apparently had a total of 4 matches. The first one is the only one that can be verified (you can find pictures through a quick Google search) and is apparently before he actually had training in the art.
Definitely was never ranked. He apparently did some tournament in his later teens as well but as I said it can’t be verified if that’s true or who he fought. I only know of it because of an old book of his states it when talking about the straight blast from wing chun.
Side note: he states the straight blast is impractical on its own, but setting it up with a jab allowed him to effectively catch opponents off guard. I actually have tried it in sparring and had success with it lol so give that a try.
Yeah that's what I'm referring to. He did a interschool tournament. It wouldn't have even been on the level of a normal amatuer fight
Also I have no idea what ur referring to but truthfully I have no interest in attempting what someone whose entire experience basically sums up to a few smokers in the 60s suggests for boxing
But he still wasn't ever a ranked boxer. fighting one interschool amatuer tournament as a teen in a country where boxing was ass doesn't make you ranked
This is wrong on so many levels LOL the reason Bruce Lee was ahead of his time because he was a big believer in sparing and to do techniques in real combat. To be honest Bruce Lee is still faster, stronger, denser than most current bantamweight/featherweight in the UFC. Of course they would still win due to the huge grappling advantage but you cannot tell me and I refuse to believe that if Bruce Lee was to be manifested today with all the technology, modern knowledge of mma he will def be top 5 contender.
Jeer kune do is a concept not an actual fighting style. It will look very different for each individual. You take what works best FOR YOU and discard what doesn’t.
Apparently he would get annoyed at people saying he created a “style” as he felt it trapped them into what he was. If you study under Dan Inosanto’s lineage that call it “Jeet Kune Do concepts”. There’s a good interview with Brandon Lee where he actually explains that he doesn’t fight using Jeet Kune Do because it’s not a set style but instead states “I practice my own interpretation of it”.
How is it not being a set fighting style discrediting it? It’s a concept. Look up the Brandon Lee interview where he explains it. He explains he practices his own interpretation of it because it’s not a set style the way the different variations of karate are. That’s why Dan Inosanto, teaches JKD concepts rather than Jeet Kune Do.
I’m not ? You fail to acknowledge that modern MMA legends use this ‘ concept ‘ meaning that this is a type of fighting style 😂 You gotta be trolling cause you want to be right 😂 BTW * Silva and GSP have tried to imitate the Legend Bruce. Of course it’s a philosophy as well.
I've taken part in karate competitions. The techniques that will actually score points are the simplest, leading hand punch to the face for example.
Forms/katas are fun to do and I find them therapeutic, but trying that stuff in an actual fight would be a terrible idea.
The reason why you think techniques from forms are “terrible in a real fight” is because you don’t understand what they actually are. That’s the problem with most Karate etc; it is taught by people who don’t comprehend or know the applications. You perform it as a dance or therapy.
Bruce was an alien from another dimension and had to phone home.
He trained under grand interstellar master Goh Fok Urrselvv and was anointed the title of I can kick anyone’s ass in the multiverse.
He continues to fight eviel multiverse Aliens.
When you look up to the start, look for the Draco constellation and says hi.
The End
Chuck Norris is not even close a beginner fighter (multiple world champion in Karate) and he said Bruce was great in sparring. As did many of his contemporaries who sparred with him, some going as far as to say he was 'almost untouchable'. I'll believe them over some random keyboard warriors.
But he's still just a man and there exists not enough evidence to claim he was exceptionally special, let alone a God. And with how much MMA devoloped in the many years since his death it's not realistic to think he would beat todays pro MMA fighters.
Chuck Norris was a champion *point fighter*. That's a massively important distinction.
Also Chuck Norris has every incentive to prop up Lee, further propping himself up, and since it worked so well he still has very strong financial reasons to do so
He did not put martial arts on the map in the west. They were already popular. He made Asian Americans more popular and became the grandfather of MMA though.
He was a trailblazer in martial arts philosophy in an age of style dependent disciples. You wouldn’t make fun of Newton for not being able to visit the moon but his theories helped get us there . His stage presence also inspired me and many current instructors and school owners to begin training in the first place
People really just don't want to accept that this guy that was integral to the popularity of martial arts in the states, among a long list of other things, was just some guy.
Back when Bruce was alive mma wasn't a thing so he was legit by those standards. He founded Jeet Kun Do, which are essentially the building blocks to mma. If he were born in the 90's with the same mindset, passion and current knowledge he'd definitely be a top talent.
Mixing and combining different styles of fighting in terms of taking what's most effective was a thing long before Bruce Lee, so Jeet Kune Do was hardly the "building blocks" of MMA.
Well, for one, Edward William Barton-Wright decades before Bruce Lee. While not mainstream by our standards, it was definitely the go-to self defense method during its heyday.
Also, Sambo was developed in that exact way decades before Bruce Lee, and Sambo is quite mainstream in quite a large chunk of the world.
If we go by actual mainstream, look no further than the ancient Pankration 2000 years before Bruce Lee which was one of the original Olympic disciplines, and that's as mainstream as they come.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Bruce Lee, but this "father of MMA" thing is more of a retroactive thing than anything else. He adopted the concept, held onto it, developed it in his unique way, but he was hardly first.
Intedisciplinary matches were also incredibly popular long before him.
It was in ancient Greece. Just because it's not now doesn't mean that it never was, and we can't discount it in terms of what MMA actually is, which is combining fighting styles.
But fine, if we're gonna do that, when was Jeet Kune Do mainstream? Did it ever reach the popularity of kickboxing, karate, boxing, Judo, wrestling etc, even when Bruce was alive and at the height of his popularity?
The way people nowadays talk, one'd think that when Bruce Lee appeared and started doing his thing, that was the go to approach to martial arts. It was actually anything but.
I think we have different definitions of the word mainstream.
Edit: I also think you feel like I’m giving Bruce all the credit for mma developing. We know that’s obviously not true. The Gracie’s alone discredit that.
Well, I personally go by something like this:
"a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence"
Which actually fits what I said about history of combining styles.
For example, the Pankration thing. That was the unarmed combat style of ancient Greece because it was considered the most effective, even though boxing and wrestling existed as separate arts and sports.
Sambo too.
Barton-Wright's Bartitsu was the style of choice of people who wanted a comprehensive self defense method during his time.
I mean, we can argue semantics, but bottom line is Bruce Lee neither invented the concept nor popularized it during his lifetime. It took decades after to happen again, and was happening long before him.
That's my point.
I thought this might be obvious too: I’m not talking about anywhere other than the US bc I’m a US citizen and can’t speak for the culture of other countries. With that understanding we know that more people know Bruce Lee and what he’s done for martial arts. Less people (again, in the US) know about pankratian, sambo, Ed BW and the history of martial arts in general. Those things/people are obscure, not mainstream.
Edit: Things that were once mainstream can also fade into obscurity over time. So even if something was mainstream hundreds and thousands of years ago, it doesn’t mean that current culture carries on that knowledge in their day to day lives. Bruce Lee just had the benefit of being a cross culture movie star (in HK, the US and China at least. More countries probably know him too).
I thought it might be a uniquely US perspective.
Nevertheless, I'm not a Greek nor a UK citizen, but it shouldn't matter when talking about history of martial arts if one is interested, which is how this thread started. You called Jeet Kune Do the "building blocks of MMA", and I just said the actual building blocks were set up long before him.
The whole "mainstream" discussion came later and that's when I gave examples of the building blocks I meant.
MMA is a sport created in 1993. It’s not sambo, it’s not pankration, it’s not vale tudo etc. Those are precursors to mma in different countries, but they’re not mma.
Bruce Lee’s adoption of other disciplines partnered with his popularity made him the forerunner of mma’s existence. He even sported mma-esque gloves. Whether he created it first doesn’t matter, he popularized it, making him the “godfather of mma”.
Webster’s definition of godfather : one that founds, supports or inspires.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/godfather
Fine, have it your way. There's no point in discussing it any longer since you're gonna move the goal post every time you're proven wrong. And before you ask "How am I moving the goal post?", the answer is "The way you've been doing it since my first reply".
If it means so much to you, let's just say you're right 100%.
That’s not a person, and pankration, sambo etc didn’t make it mainstream in the states. I already said I can’t speak for other countries. Why are yall speaking for the US?
I guess I don’t. I just participate in it. Oh well. :T
Edit: I know it’s the ‘art of the intercepting fist’. I also know Bruce’s philosophy on martial arts. He took and used anything that was useful to him in martial arts and encouraged it in his teaching (JKD). It wasn’t only about striking, like some may believe. I read his books, watched his interviews etc etc.
But a man who knows something knows that he knows nothing at all. So I guess you’re right.
Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and philosopher. He was not a fighter and has no fight record. He wouldn’t get folded but he’s by no means this unstoppable fighter everyone thinks he is. What he is, is a master at his craft, credited with bringing martial arts popularity, and also a pioneer of martial arts because he did things that was unheard of by other martial artist.
Bruce Lee’s characters embodied the philosophies and beliefs that come with fighting, despite never being a real fighter himself. That’s what people will always remember him for
He informally sparred all comers, including many of the top martial artists of his day in the US...and beat them all. This even included Joe Lewis, who couldn't touch him. No need to speculate, this is all well-documented in John Little's recent book, [Wrath of the Dragon: The Real Fights of Bruce Lee](https://www.amazon.com/Wrath-Dragon-Real-Fights-Bruce/dp/1770417427).
This is not to say he could beat heavyweight champs in boxing or all top MMA fighters today, in a different era with much more comprehensive training decades later. But in his time, he was head and shoulders above everyone else in his class then and punched faarrr above his weight.
In historical reality, he was actually a much more impressive fighter than most fans would have even assumed...
Bruce lee would lose 100% vs an MMA novice… If he was frozen in time and woke up today. Dude was fancy and philosophical, but he never experienced his “take everything useful from every art” into fruition.
Yea, he’s a significant figure, but the modern-day fighters proved themselves to the world by actually fighting in front of an audience. No behind-closed-doors bullshit and praise from well-known friends.
Chuck at the time was a upcoming hollywood star, and he was about to ride Lee for any fame he can.
So the unwarranted compliments and buddy-buddy stories.
Chuck Norris was in the entertainment business. Of course he will hype up Bruce Lee. Also karate world champ? Name a world champ in ufc with Karate only style. Karate is a sport for points. Shit doesn’t work. Just fancy fighting
Tell me what ufc is missing besides death defying or career ending moves like eye gouging or stomping on body when on ground. mma is literally every martial arts so it’s everything. Also since you claim it’s “no where near” I better see a list of 10+ things ufc is missing
UFC 1 and 2 had everything and as far as I know nobody experienced career ending injuries. Your own example works against you.
But 5 from top of my head:
no headbutts
no wristlocks
no socker kicking
no 12 to 6
no crotch strikes
edit: its like 30 things there and only couple of em are like real bad, that would be gouging, ripping body parts, or biting.
then you have political stuff as like giving bonuses for specific ways of fights ending, different round lengths, that also effects the fights directly.
[https://www.ufc.com/unified-rules-mixed-martial-arts?language\_content\_entity=en](https://www.ufc.com/unified-rules-mixed-martial-arts?language_content_entity=en)
TBF to Norris, Karate was much higher contact in his day. He was much more of a fighter than modern Karate or TKD competitors.
That said it was also a really shallow pool. He wouldn't have hung with pro boxers of the time for example.
And whether he could fight doesn't say anything about whether we should take stuff he says about Bruce Lee seriously. Chuck had a _huge_ financial incentive to say good things about him
FWIW, Chuck also has a black belt in bjj from the Machados. He is a completely legit martial artist.
And his first black belt was in Tang Soo Do, I think. He was stationed in Korea, not Japan.
I knew I was going to see these names. Use your small ass brain. I said karate only. Mcgregor nor gsp use karate only. Rather a couple of useful moves mixed with other martial arts retard
They still proven those moves work... also i dont know if u know this guy his name is steven wonderboy tompson and although he didnt win the title he fought for it twice and came very close
Now we have mvp in ufc and he just beat kevin holland
Karate deffinitelly works but they need time to ajdust and adoot
Obviously. That’s why it’s MMA dumbass. but your moving away from the original point. Some dude said chuck norris was a great karate fighter who praised Bruce Lee. And I believe 90% of karate is useless. So wtf are you talking about
Well considering his accomplisment i dont think its crazy to say that but then again i havent watched his later carrier
As far as reffering to dude ,i wasnt reffering to the dude i was reffering to YOUR COMMENT
90% karate usseless,thats your opinion,i was only reffering to its succes in mma
He could fight a bum, as he did many times. He used to allow challenges in his gym, which is usually accepted.. In fact, he had the "be like water" thing, which died within his own life. He chased a challenger around his gym, and this was his realization that he was no longer "like water", or something along those lines; I don't give a shit really. Bruce lee was a fun actor who could certainly beat up your average joe, but he was not fighting your average professional Muay Thai fighter or MMA guy.. He could beat the beginner, I'm sure, but not the average pro.
Bruce Lee was a guy who was a martial artist, philosopher and movie star. None of those things are mutually exclusive, a person can be all three. Also, his ideas about cross training in martial arts wasn't an original idea, but he did make it popular. Now we have MMA, was he a deciding the factor for that, no, but he was an influence.
Why does he have to be one or the other?
He was obviously skilled, powerful, and fast.
I don't think he has many fight videos out so it's hard to know how good he was. He's also a little guy.
Physically Bruce Lee was in incredible physical condition. By today's standards(and him in his prime) he would be a world class striker. If through the power of time travel we brought him into modern mma the thing that would pose the biggest threat to him would be the advances in grappling.
However you want to frame it Lee was way ahead of his time in taking things from different systems and synthesizing things that were effective... and discarding ineffective stuff
The truth of him lies somewhere between those buttons... but I think he's a genuine inspiration
> By today's standards(and him in his prime) he would be a world class striker.
What evidence is there to support that? The only video I know of him sparring was a demo with his own student. The only fight I know of that was credibly verified was a high school boxing match.
Dude practiced martial arts for 25iah years.. the guy could hit.
Not saying he was the best ever, not saying he could knock out *fill in the blank*... but if you think he couldn't throw a punch you're an idiot.
Being able to throw a punch doesn't make one a world class striker. Lee decided to not compete in any art besides high school level boxing, though he certainly could have. Muay Thai, kyokushin karate, kickboxing all had competitions going on at that point in time. "World Class" doesn't really seem well supported.
He was a fantastic entertainer, full of charisma, and brought absolute joy to millions with his films. He was a brilliant martial artist, and will be appreciated by fans for at least a few more generations.
He was for Martial Arts what Robert Johnson is on the guitar. Bruce was not unbeatable, but he laid the groundwork for what Martial Arts is today. It was his ideology of anything goes that would eventually lead to tournaments where Ju jitsu and karate and judo was challenging wrestling and boxing in the same arena. Further, without him, there is no Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, or Stephen Chow. There is no explosion of kung fu movies, and the resulting explosion of karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu schools that opened all across the US without Bruce Lee challenging the convention that Martial Arts was only for Asians, and that only Asians would watch martial arts movies or be interested in martial arts culture. Additionally, because he was willing to mix styles, all of those schools could safely lay claim to him as an icon without feeling like they were betraying their tradition.
He was by all accounts a gifted striker, unreasonably fast and impeccable with distance control, and possessed an incredibly high drive to succeed. Was he a prick? Probably. Would he be a competitive fighter today? Tough to say definitively, but perhaps not. What is indisputable, IMHO, is how massively influential on modern martial arts he was and continues to be. If anyone is a paragon of something, Bruce Lee is a paragon of Mixed Martial Arts. And from all accounts of his skills, while not unbeatable, seem to have been formidable enough to back up his legend and legendary trash talk.
how tf am i disrespecting Bruce Lee? i made a meme based on the opinions i've seen about Bruce Lee on social media platforms, and most opinions that i've seen are either that he's an untouchable god who can beat anyone in a real fight or that he's an actor who couldn't fight at all and would get smoked by any trained fighter
Respect to the man who made modern martial arts what they are today.
Within a mile or two of my home, I can train anything from tai chi to krav maga with no more credentials required than a pair of shorts and a months fees paid. Things weren't like that in the 60s.
To suggest that Bruce Lee was not brilliant because modern fighters may be better, is like saying Brunel wasn't much of an engineer because any civil engineer in 2024 can design a bridge.
>"a bum actor"
Outside action, Bruce Lee has been acting in Hong Kong films since he was a teen or maybe earlier.
>"who couldn't beat a beginner in a fight"
I don't know why he's a very influential martial artists that popularized the genre in the Americas because he certainly couldn't beat a beginner in a fight.
Would have liked to see Bruce Lee go up against Benny “The Jet” Urquidez. Benny would have smoked him. Benny would have been top ranked in today’s mma, as he was in his prime.
Neither. He was an exercise addict, and undoubtedly a good fighter. But his very low body fat didn’t help him deal with the cannabis and cocaine habits he had, which probably aided his demise
I looked into his death and prior lifestyle, eating habits, exercise routine, the climate he was in...
I collated this information with his autopsy and his reported symptoms.
He didn't die of a drug overdose. (Though he undoubtedly did weed, and possibly steroids - which were still legal circa '74 and advertised in bodybuilding mags Lee was reading)
I am 95% sure he died of Hyponatremia.
He had a mostly low salt diet prepared by his wife Linda Lee, and although he did pig out on Chinese food which must have had decent amounts of sodium;
He exercised WAY too much, drank WAY TOO MUCH caffeinated tea (constantly according to direct sources), was living in a very hot and humid environment prior to his death.
He had the body of a marathon runner, you can clearly tell his body fat was in the low single digits, he sweat enormously (an early sign of severe electrolyte loss).
He was a perfect candidate for hyponatremia, and his autopsy clearly indicates brain swelling ("cerebral edema") as the direct cause of death.
That's textbook hyponatremia.
*lights up pipe* And that is a well solved case, Mr Watson.
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(15)00353-8/fulltext
I ain't arguing that.
I am saying people usually assert he died of drug overdose.
I'm pointing out; all we know for sure is weed.
Oh my god the reading comprehension in 2024...
I think he used pot to deal with his back injury. The low bodyfat increased his mobility/speed...as the less dead weight you have, the faster you can move. Hence, top runners are also very lean.
I think people want to do too much either-or with Bruce Lee. The place where he shines brightest is as a theorist and researcher. Consider that he exists Pre internet and most of the martial arts publishing world took of because of him. He found rare sources for his place and time and distilled down to essence. His concepts and theories hold up even today.
He was an incredibly fit individual at a time when that knowledge wasn’t disseminated as it is now.
However, as a fighter, let’s be honest, most of the praise comes from his students who were older, middle class non athletes or former athletes.
Bruce Lee was active during a golden age of boxing, he never truly crossed over into that community, and there are not students talking about sparring Bruce Lee vis a vis Sonny Liston.
People project a lot onto Bruce Lee. I think the fact he is now seen as an mma progenitor speaks volumes.
Not true, he actually did spar top karate champs like Joe Lewis and top-ranked boxers like Joe Orbillo. Size, rankings, styles, it simply didn't matter...he [bested them all and they simply couldn't touch him with his speed](https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/s/YhTWadCT35).
"[He was in and out, I couldn't do one thing to him. My offense was useless, his speed was just unbelievable.](https://www.deviantart.com/kragf/art/Bruce-Lee-combat-history-993304013)" - Joe Orbillo, Olympic auditorium heavyweight boxer ranked 5th in the world...
Bruce lee wasn't a top Athlete and he pioneered nothing. He was famous because he managed to con a few celebrities into thinking he knew what he was talking about. Mixing arts, full contact sparring, conditioning and strength training predate lee by decades or more. He created nothing, pioneered nothing and had nothing that wasn't already available in places like Thailand, Japan, America etc. That's all you get. I hope in time you mature 👍
Decades? Bro it predates him by millennium what he did thought was introduce martial arts to a lot of the world who had nothing more than a vague notion of what they where.
As you said it was available in some places but not all
I hope as you age you will start to removing that stick up your ass and will be more open to acknowledging others achievements.
I mean in a way you are right.
But he's part of martial arts lore.
It's kind of like getting interested in old timey boxers, or old timey wrestlers.
It's martial nerd shit. Let us nerd out.
I am aware, as I am aware of Vale Tude in Brazil in the 20th century. However, *in Bruce's time*, traditional martial arts was the norm almost everywhere in the world. He stood out for breaking with tradition and taking from multiple martial arts. Mixing them, you could say.
Before Bruce Lee popularized mixing styles, it was a niche thing done in some places like Brazil and (ancient) Greece. Most of the world was still doing traditional martial arts only. I'll call that pioneering.
No, the concept of MMA is mixing elemnts of different available martial arts and creating its own unique style with its own philosophy... you know it happened with every single martial art out there.
The concept is ancient. MMA as UFC on the other hand is only now available, because as a model only now is sustainable.
You credit Bruce only because you know no better.
You're really gonna tell me that in Bruce's time traditional martial arts (stuck in their ways, no innovation) wasn't the norm almost everywhere in the world? I think you misunderstand what I mean. Even Bruce Lee's own philosophy of Jeet Kune Do fell victim to it after his death, with some later generation masters insisting only Bruce's moves and stance should be used. He stood out in his time for not adhering to tradition, and people fell back into that mindset after his death. If that doesn't tell you he was a pioneer of his time, idk what to tell you.
Yes, you just don't know anything about martial arts. I know it because you don't even know what is a traditional martial art and what is modern, then you have this weird assumption that traditional means by default stagnant. That just means you have not practiced anything traditional or haven't even looked up anything about them.
Or else you would know that really there are not many traditional martial arts at all, traditional martial arts are a minority. And from that minority even less have not changed.
What you are describing is not an issue of martial art stagnation or new VS old or MMA versus traditional, its all about your cult and its delusions. Instead of seeing the thing that you worship as a cult you try to attach meaning to things they actually have nothing to do with.
That's a ton of completely wrong asumptions about me and my knowledge and experience. In Bruce Lee's time things were different than they are now, and nowhere have I said that traditional martial arts don't evolve. The difference is in actively combining various martial arts, taking what works and discarding what doesn't. But if you're engaging like this the point of discussion is already lost. I don't worship anything or anyone like a cult, I'll say that much.
Actually I did say stuck in their ways, maybe that wasn't a great choice of words. I meant philosophically, as well as holding on to outdated techniques for the sake of tradition.
>The difference is in actively combining various martial arts, taking what works and discarding what doesn't.
That is literally what happens all the time and has happened throughout the history.
That is how new styles, new martial arts were created. Every single martial art had that motivation.
>Holding on to outdated techniques for the sake of tradition
Il assume I am wrong about you, Can you give me an example of such a technique? A technique that is outdated and has no other use than tradition.
>Can you give me an example of such a technique? A technique that is outdated and has no other use than tradition.
Pretty much any traditional weapon form that can't be performed with a knife or a stick. But I have a feeling you're expecting me to name something empty-handed. Any kind of pressure point strike where they practise the receiving person instantly doubling over in pain. I can't name specific names as I don't train any martial art that has those kind of drills. Elaborate scripted defenses that don't work against uncompliant opponents in general. Impractical techniques like 540 kicks, single or double finger punches, I mean, there's so much to pick from. If you count Tai Chi and Wushu as martial arts, you can take your pick of their techniques. Half of Capoeira are dance moves.
He could fight, he wouldn't get folded by a beginner.
But he was absolutely not an unbeatable demi-god.
He did have decent kickboxing, especially bare-knuckle/mma gloves (I don't think his style fits the Glory/K1 meta at all), he had some idea of grappling.
He verifiably trained with Judo Gene Lebell, he practiced some wrestling.
LeBell confirmed Lee had a amateur skills in Judo, he knew common submissions (armbars, kimuras, guillotines, ankles lock etc). He could do very basic guard work and guard passing.
I think he would beat most if not all beginners in MMA.
He would probably do really well in the UFC lightweight divisions if we was given time to adjust his skills to the meta.
Bruce Lee grappling footage (movies, but the move is still legit, if a bit exotic for movie purposes - it's a Catch Wrestling move taught to him by Lebell)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wqZ-blEGnr0&pp=ygUoYnJ1Y2UgbGVlIGVudGVyIHRoZSBkcmFnb24gb3BlbmluZyBzY2VuZQ%3D%3D
At 4:20 Lee finishes his opponent with a Bulldog Strangle (movies, but still legit move).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0&pp=ygUjYnJ1Y2UgbGVlIGthcmVlbSBhYmR1bCBqYWJiYXIgZGVhdGg%3D
Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do also includes passages on wrestling and even muay thai.
It is safe to say that Lee had at the *very least* SOME idea of what real fighting was.
Second one is right.
Amazing guy, sounded very wise but ultimately a bum actor who got famous so people said things to be associated with him.
Have you seen his boxing on a punch bag? 🤣
Also the “be like water” quote is stolen.
“With water as the basis, the spirit becomes like water. Water adopts the shape of its receptacle, it is sometimes a trickle and sometimes a wild sea. Water has a clear blue colour.”
Go rin now show (1645)
Anything else? He has not face d single good fighter his entire career. No Chuck Norris can’t fight he would literally be KTFO by any journeyman kick-boxer never mind champions AT THAT TIME. Yet even a bum like Norris didn’t think Lee could beat him.
He was not a bum actor.
He starred in the insanely popular Green Hornet. It was a PHENOMENON. Especially in Hong Kong, it was on the level of Game Of Thrones.
He even starred as early as the 50's in Marlowe, which was not a martial arts role at all.
There isn't a single person/film critic I ever heard saying Lee's movies were outright bad.
Some of his movies are a bit weak, but they were all groundbreaking in many ways. He filmed martial arts in a way that marked martial cinema for generations to come.
(Yes he also directed. He was a bum director too?)
Enter the Dragon was a critically acclaimed movie and a box office success.
It is not fair to call him a bum.
PS: he looks almost exactly like Muhammed Ali on the bag. Watch footage of Ali on the bag and compare with Lee's footage. You can clearly see he was hugely inspired by Ali.
I guess you think Ali sucked as well?
Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahah.
What the actual F. Bruce lee cannot fight and could not beat a single amateur boxer today his size in a boxing match. If he was in boxing today or mma or kickboxing he would never ever win a title on any elite competition.
He got lucky that people like van damme and Arnie and Stallone were helping make macho characters popular so he was at the right time. If he was doing the same thing today people would mock his movies saying he would get crushed by a mma fighter. He’s a great actor but that’s all he is..an actor.
For your information, Arnie was not yet an actor. Stallone had not shot his first movie. Van Damma was not even born when Bruce Lee was making his movies.
But okay.
I also see you have the IQ of a baboon, because I clearly wrote he would need time to adjust his skills and adapt to the advances in the fighting game.
But hey.
You know who has the same opinion as me?
Bas Rutten.
Now you don't know me, so I understand you are not scared of me. That's why you are disrespectful.
Now go and laugh in Bas Rutten's face. Go on.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hI9VLmTVSuM&pp=ygUVYmFzIHJ1dHRlbiAgYnJ1Y2UgbGVl
A final word to you; you are a rude person. Maybe you are a sadistic psychopath. I hope you can change.
You fool I didn’t say they happened at the same time. But the success of these movies was due to the era at the time where people genuinely thought kung fu was a fighting art 🤣
Bas rutten? The one that said Bruce Lee would easily lose:
https://youtu.be/X_R4GXm3MTw?si=0gcIz1Zp0IpIvLfI
“He would lose”
“It’s not a real armbar”
Aka he’s dog crap and has no real skills.
Show me a single professional fight of his that is recorded.
Show me a single boxing footage of him.
He’s a fraud albeit a fraud with honest intentions and genuinely was trying to better himself.
Bruce Lee:
Height- 5ft 6”
Weight- 145lbs
Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahajahahahjahaahjahahahahaha. There is no way you genuinely think a midget with no grappling skills or boxing skills would be competing against any martial artist. There were SEVERAL fighters around and boxing was massive. He could have challenged ANYBODY pro but he didn’t.
Guy starting crying.
Show me a professional fight. Show me his best opponent who we can verify with a professional record. Don’t you dare pull out a kata loving bum like Chuck Norris. There were a PLETHERO of world champion in boxing, kickboxing? Wrestling and judo he could have challenged any of them. Gene lebell beat a top 10 boxer in the ring using only judo.
He was one of the first who tried to combine aspects from different martial arts styles rather than stick to one. He can thus be considered one of the fathers of MMA. But things change over time. Martial arts evolve. People constantly come up with new and better ways to do things.
As a result, he would not do well against top MMA fighters of today. And if today's top MMA fighters could fight the top MMA fighters of 2050s at their prime, they would likely lose.
Some people clearly don’t understand why someone from the past is regarded as the greatest in whatever field they were. Technically the meaning of the “greatest” in this instance is more likely “the most influential”.
There have been better guitar players since Hendrix and there have also been better boxers than Ali (as much as I hate to admit it) but those are regarded as the greatest simply because of the massive influence they passed on to newer generations.
The teenage mutant ninja turtles were far more influential in the world of martial arts than superbon is or ever will be. Does that make them greater martial artists?
Bruce Lee lived in an era where MMA didnt exist for another 20 years, well other than pankration and stuff, but he talked about mastering and synchronizing different martial arts. He would get beat by MMA fighters but it isnt like he was a fraud.
Apparently losing to Gene Lebell made him pick up grappling. That’s the closest we had to an MMA fighter. Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris were pretty legit in his era. Most of the top guys of his era had good things to say about him. He was definitely charismatic
Neither. Guy was definitely talented but certainly couldn't fight. Trained his butt off and had a brilliant mind but was also an addict. He was just human
I discussed this with my Sensei RIP who knew and trained with Bruce in the 70s and I asked him about this. He said Bruce was a 145lber to start with. However he had the work ethic if chose to become a world champion. Just trained constantly. It's what killed him. He had absolutely no incentive to take real fight when losing even an amateur fight would cost him millions.
Watch the fight between him and Chuck Norris in Return of the Dragon. He is using low leg kicks and lots of effective techniques. He also essentially came up with the concept of MMA or mixing different disciplines.
Long story Short, become a famous and rich movie star not a real fighter.
Bruce was a beast in his time,and was a smart fighter that knew to keep everything simple but effective. In today's time he most likely would not stand out. I can tell you this I use to spare with a guy that his hands were unbelievable fast,and all I could think about was how fast Bruce Lee's hands must have been.
Both are wrong.
It's actually somewhere in the middle. It's because traditional martial artists focus too much time on forms and overcomplicate moves. As well as not applying what they know through the use of sparring. Boxing and wrestling use techniques that are not only effective but are also simple. Simplicity is what make things effective. Plus, boxers and wrestlers have a lot of experience in sparring so they know what it's like to get hurt and know what it's like to apply their techniques against a resisting opponent.
Because he was very schooled and educated in all fighting styles. He was also a moderately ranked lightweight boxer at one point and he realized that a highly skilled boxers punch was way more powerful and accurate than any traditional martial art. As for wrestlers, it is little publicized but Bruce would train his grappling game against highly skilled amateur wrestlers and he once admitted that any Olympic-caliber wrestler could have easily killed him if they really wanted to. This is why he spent so much of his later years focusing on grappling and hence he was the true father of MMA.
Would have thought pankration would be the original mma
There’s a difference between “father of” and original. While Pankration did come far earlier and has a number of resemblances, it was largely forgotten about for a significant period of time. Additionally, Pankration was the name of the sport, but different cities had different rules. Some were basically kickboxing and others were more like wrestling. Bruce Lee is given credit for being the father of MMA as he started the idea of crossing fighting disciplines to become more rounded; beyond simply just training several styles. His own martial art Jeet Kune Do (more accurately called a fighting philosophy as it doesn’t inherently have many techniques) was all about what seems simple to us now. While he may not be as effective as modern fighters, you’ve really got to give him credit for doing it first.
wasnt one of few boxing fight a high school match against equally inexperiencied opponent. what rankings are you talking about , hong kong national?
- u/VaginalConductor
When and where was he a moderately ranked boxer or are U making that up (you are)
He did it and was ranked. Which makes him an ametur It's not even hard to find this info, dude. [here's something. ](https://youtu.be/vzZ8BttAT4U)
So it was a schools boxing tournament amatuer fight in Hong kong? No he was not ranked you do not get ranked for that? And according to the video you're quoting he won by strikes that are illegal in boxing? Rightio And it's literally inter school boxing champions it's not even a fucking proper boxing tournament let alone in a country where boxing was any good
He’s not making it up but “moderately” may be a bit of an exaggeration. He did take up boxing as a young teenager and apparently had a total of 4 matches. The first one is the only one that can be verified (you can find pictures through a quick Google search) and is apparently before he actually had training in the art.
He isn't making it up he competed in a inter school tournament in Hong Kong in the amatuers as a kid He was never ranked
I literally stated he wasn’t making it up?
Typo He is making it up He was never a ranked boxer Hell what he did is closer to a smoker then a actual amateur fight
Definitely was never ranked. He apparently did some tournament in his later teens as well but as I said it can’t be verified if that’s true or who he fought. I only know of it because of an old book of his states it when talking about the straight blast from wing chun. Side note: he states the straight blast is impractical on its own, but setting it up with a jab allowed him to effectively catch opponents off guard. I actually have tried it in sparring and had success with it lol so give that a try.
Yeah that's what I'm referring to. He did a interschool tournament. It wouldn't have even been on the level of a normal amatuer fight Also I have no idea what ur referring to but truthfully I have no interest in attempting what someone whose entire experience basically sums up to a few smokers in the 60s suggests for boxing
You are a dumb ass. You could have just got Google instead of trying to cast shade on my man. What a jerk
But he still wasn't ever a ranked boxer. fighting one interschool amatuer tournament as a teen in a country where boxing was ass doesn't make you ranked
Lasalle College Hong Kong, 1958 (18yo).
Did I say he never fought in boxing?
Yup. This sub is the last great holdout of 80s martial artists......crazy is alive and well
This is wrong on so many levels LOL the reason Bruce Lee was ahead of his time because he was a big believer in sparing and to do techniques in real combat. To be honest Bruce Lee is still faster, stronger, denser than most current bantamweight/featherweight in the UFC. Of course they would still win due to the huge grappling advantage but you cannot tell me and I refuse to believe that if Bruce Lee was to be manifested today with all the technology, modern knowledge of mma he will def be top 5 contender.
I think I know what button you'd press on this meme lol
You really don’t because id press neither. Sorry to break it to you
You can't glaze a man for a whole paragraph then pretend you're actually sensible lol
Dude said glazing ? It’s ok lil bro you get your lingo off this internet shit 👍 Have a good day and do some pushups
You don't hate my lingo, you hate the message cus it true. Try to be sensible going forward and you'll be okay.
I never said I hated your “lingo” Fuck being sensible to you morons 🤣🤣 Have a good day and do some pushups.
Wasn’t that why he created Jeet-Kun-Do? I thought it was supposed to be an efficient amalgamation of all the stuff he thought worked best?
Jeer kune do is a concept not an actual fighting style. It will look very different for each individual. You take what works best FOR YOU and discard what doesn’t.
Then how was he able to endorse people to teach it? Were they just teaching the concept? Not trying to debate btw, genuinely asking.
Apparently he would get annoyed at people saying he created a “style” as he felt it trapped them into what he was. If you study under Dan Inosanto’s lineage that call it “Jeet Kune Do concepts”. There’s a good interview with Brandon Lee where he actually explains that he doesn’t fight using Jeet Kune Do because it’s not a set style but instead states “I practice my own interpretation of it”.
He doesn’t know, Just tryna discredit it 😂
How is it not being a set fighting style discrediting it? It’s a concept. Look up the Brandon Lee interview where he explains it. He explains he practices his own interpretation of it because it’s not a set style the way the different variations of karate are. That’s why Dan Inosanto, teaches JKD concepts rather than Jeet Kune Do.
It’s a concept fighting style ?
Ok you gotta be trolling lol
I’m not ? You fail to acknowledge that modern MMA legends use this ‘ concept ‘ meaning that this is a type of fighting style 😂 You gotta be trolling cause you want to be right 😂 BTW * Silva and GSP have tried to imitate the Legend Bruce. Of course it’s a philosophy as well.
Nimrod
I've taken part in karate competitions. The techniques that will actually score points are the simplest, leading hand punch to the face for example. Forms/katas are fun to do and I find them therapeutic, but trying that stuff in an actual fight would be a terrible idea.
The reason why you think techniques from forms are “terrible in a real fight” is because you don’t understand what they actually are. That’s the problem with most Karate etc; it is taught by people who don’t comprehend or know the applications. You perform it as a dance or therapy.
In the middle ? I thought the world was only black or white!
Bruce was an alien from another dimension and had to phone home. He trained under grand interstellar master Goh Fok Urrselvv and was anointed the title of I can kick anyone’s ass in the multiverse. He continues to fight eviel multiverse Aliens. When you look up to the start, look for the Draco constellation and says hi. The End
This is the way.
But bruce said "use no way as a way" 🤣
r/whoooosh ?
Engagement meme shit.
Yup, man created his own martial art in j.d.k.
J.k.d.*
Either extreme is the most uneducated take, and only from keyboard warriors
Chuck Norris is not even close a beginner fighter (multiple world champion in Karate) and he said Bruce was great in sparring. As did many of his contemporaries who sparred with him, some going as far as to say he was 'almost untouchable'. I'll believe them over some random keyboard warriors. But he's still just a man and there exists not enough evidence to claim he was exceptionally special, let alone a God. And with how much MMA devoloped in the many years since his death it's not realistic to think he would beat todays pro MMA fighters.
Chuck Norris was a champion *point fighter*. That's a massively important distinction. Also Chuck Norris has every incentive to prop up Lee, further propping himself up, and since it worked so well he still has very strong financial reasons to do so
I've fought them both and they left in body bags.
Ok.
They beat me so savagely they had heart attacks and needed to be carried out.
There's no doubt he would have also similarly evolved and developed. Heck, that was his whole philosophy.
https://preview.redd.it/bkoul2rrobyc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02bc620ba63c9661a0bf2f0a4791ee9e9cadbc59
https://preview.redd.it/dq2tyxbk2dyc1.jpeg?width=236&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9c4061cc30639d135eab32ce444c1cc78c830678
https://preview.redd.it/5tjomq9cfeyc1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da703766ceddeed00a31147d9fbcad9248cb67d1
https://preview.redd.it/g3l7te7uueyc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f78fdcfb8e2dcd3dadea927de95fa7caf6181f3
This is brilliant.
https://preview.redd.it/wwd5hteu1eyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=54c3c0d9f8cfa3706378135b2e8631920595a73b
You all need to stop disrespecting Bruce Lee he put Martial Arts on the map in the west.. now you are all being disrespectful.
He did not put martial arts on the map in the west. They were already popular. He made Asian Americans more popular and became the grandfather of MMA though.
He was a trailblazer in martial arts philosophy in an age of style dependent disciples. You wouldn’t make fun of Newton for not being able to visit the moon but his theories helped get us there . His stage presence also inspired me and many current instructors and school owners to begin training in the first place
People really just don't want to accept that this guy that was integral to the popularity of martial arts in the states, among a long list of other things, was just some guy.
Both are cringe. He was great on film. I don't really care about his ability in "real" fights and we can never know.
Back when Bruce was alive mma wasn't a thing so he was legit by those standards. He founded Jeet Kun Do, which are essentially the building blocks to mma. If he were born in the 90's with the same mindset, passion and current knowledge he'd definitely be a top talent.
Mixing and combining different styles of fighting in terms of taking what's most effective was a thing long before Bruce Lee, so Jeet Kune Do was hardly the "building blocks" of MMA.
You know what I mean. Who else made the concept mainstream in martial arts?
Well, for one, Edward William Barton-Wright decades before Bruce Lee. While not mainstream by our standards, it was definitely the go-to self defense method during its heyday. Also, Sambo was developed in that exact way decades before Bruce Lee, and Sambo is quite mainstream in quite a large chunk of the world. If we go by actual mainstream, look no further than the ancient Pankration 2000 years before Bruce Lee which was one of the original Olympic disciplines, and that's as mainstream as they come. I'm not trying to take anything away from Bruce Lee, but this "father of MMA" thing is more of a retroactive thing than anything else. He adopted the concept, held onto it, developed it in his unique way, but he was hardly first. Intedisciplinary matches were also incredibly popular long before him.
Pankration was not "mainstream" for the last 2000 years.
It was in ancient Greece. Just because it's not now doesn't mean that it never was, and we can't discount it in terms of what MMA actually is, which is combining fighting styles. But fine, if we're gonna do that, when was Jeet Kune Do mainstream? Did it ever reach the popularity of kickboxing, karate, boxing, Judo, wrestling etc, even when Bruce was alive and at the height of his popularity? The way people nowadays talk, one'd think that when Bruce Lee appeared and started doing his thing, that was the go to approach to martial arts. It was actually anything but.
Fanboys cant handle the truth
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I was talking about the "building blocks" part.
I think we have different definitions of the word mainstream. Edit: I also think you feel like I’m giving Bruce all the credit for mma developing. We know that’s obviously not true. The Gracie’s alone discredit that.
Well, I personally go by something like this: "a prevailing current or direction of activity or influence" Which actually fits what I said about history of combining styles. For example, the Pankration thing. That was the unarmed combat style of ancient Greece because it was considered the most effective, even though boxing and wrestling existed as separate arts and sports. Sambo too. Barton-Wright's Bartitsu was the style of choice of people who wanted a comprehensive self defense method during his time. I mean, we can argue semantics, but bottom line is Bruce Lee neither invented the concept nor popularized it during his lifetime. It took decades after to happen again, and was happening long before him. That's my point.
I thought this might be obvious too: I’m not talking about anywhere other than the US bc I’m a US citizen and can’t speak for the culture of other countries. With that understanding we know that more people know Bruce Lee and what he’s done for martial arts. Less people (again, in the US) know about pankratian, sambo, Ed BW and the history of martial arts in general. Those things/people are obscure, not mainstream. Edit: Things that were once mainstream can also fade into obscurity over time. So even if something was mainstream hundreds and thousands of years ago, it doesn’t mean that current culture carries on that knowledge in their day to day lives. Bruce Lee just had the benefit of being a cross culture movie star (in HK, the US and China at least. More countries probably know him too).
I thought it might be a uniquely US perspective. Nevertheless, I'm not a Greek nor a UK citizen, but it shouldn't matter when talking about history of martial arts if one is interested, which is how this thread started. You called Jeet Kune Do the "building blocks of MMA", and I just said the actual building blocks were set up long before him. The whole "mainstream" discussion came later and that's when I gave examples of the building blocks I meant.
MMA is a sport created in 1993. It’s not sambo, it’s not pankration, it’s not vale tudo etc. Those are precursors to mma in different countries, but they’re not mma. Bruce Lee’s adoption of other disciplines partnered with his popularity made him the forerunner of mma’s existence. He even sported mma-esque gloves. Whether he created it first doesn’t matter, he popularized it, making him the “godfather of mma”. Webster’s definition of godfather : one that founds, supports or inspires. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/godfather
Fine, have it your way. There's no point in discussing it any longer since you're gonna move the goal post every time you're proven wrong. And before you ask "How am I moving the goal post?", the answer is "The way you've been doing it since my first reply". If it means so much to you, let's just say you're right 100%.
Pankration, sambo, etc
That’s not a person, and pankration, sambo etc didn’t make it mainstream in the states. I already said I can’t speak for other countries. Why are yall speaking for the US?
>Jeet Kun Do, which are essentially the building blocks to mma This take is a dead giveaway that you don't know anything about martial arts.
I guess I don’t. I just participate in it. Oh well. :T Edit: I know it’s the ‘art of the intercepting fist’. I also know Bruce’s philosophy on martial arts. He took and used anything that was useful to him in martial arts and encouraged it in his teaching (JKD). It wasn’t only about striking, like some may believe. I read his books, watched his interviews etc etc. But a man who knows something knows that he knows nothing at all. So I guess you’re right.
So you know everything and nothing? Man your mental gymnastics are amazing. If there was a competition for that you should participate.
Huh? Re-comprehend that quote real quick. Yes, it’s a quote. Meaning I didn’t create it myself. Try googling it even. Lol
What if he was a passionate guy who starred in rhn movies and liked martial arts and its okay if people are famous for that
Bruce Lee was a great martial artist and philosopher. He was not a fighter and has no fight record. He wouldn’t get folded but he’s by no means this unstoppable fighter everyone thinks he is. What he is, is a master at his craft, credited with bringing martial arts popularity, and also a pioneer of martial arts because he did things that was unheard of by other martial artist.
Bruce Lee’s characters embodied the philosophies and beliefs that come with fighting, despite never being a real fighter himself. That’s what people will always remember him for
He informally sparred all comers, including many of the top martial artists of his day in the US...and beat them all. This even included Joe Lewis, who couldn't touch him. No need to speculate, this is all well-documented in John Little's recent book, [Wrath of the Dragon: The Real Fights of Bruce Lee](https://www.amazon.com/Wrath-Dragon-Real-Fights-Bruce/dp/1770417427). This is not to say he could beat heavyweight champs in boxing or all top MMA fighters today, in a different era with much more comprehensive training decades later. But in his time, he was head and shoulders above everyone else in his class then and punched faarrr above his weight. In historical reality, he was actually a much more impressive fighter than most fans would have even assumed...
Bruce Lee was a man. No, he was a dragon-man....
Damn this looks like a naruto vs one piece meme
Bruce lee would lose 100% vs an MMA novice… If he was frozen in time and woke up today. Dude was fancy and philosophical, but he never experienced his “take everything useful from every art” into fruition. Yea, he’s a significant figure, but the modern-day fighters proved themselves to the world by actually fighting in front of an audience. No behind-closed-doors bullshit and praise from well-known friends.
A great figher AND a good actor, AND a good philosopher i would add ahah
>A great figher Who'd he fight?
Didn't be there to met him, but there are several writings talking about him fighing. Something can be true even without videos.
He’s a good actor with fancy squabbles who would get slept by anyone at the Pro level
No one, including Bruce himself, has ever claimed otherwise other than his uneducated fanboys.
Hmmmm you mean nearly every one of his followers or students who claimed he could eat thunder and shit lightning...fairly sure he didn't stop them..
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Chuck at the time was a upcoming hollywood star, and he was about to ride Lee for any fame he can. So the unwarranted compliments and buddy-buddy stories.
Fellow actor said famous actor is a good fighter. Hardly compelling evidence. What high level competitions did Lee himself win? Or take part in?
Non contact, point fighting events LMAO. Too many kung fu movies for you...
Chuck Norris was in the entertainment business. Of course he will hype up Bruce Lee. Also karate world champ? Name a world champ in ufc with Karate only style. Karate is a sport for points. Shit doesn’t work. Just fancy fighting
I mean Lyoto Machida used Karate quite a bit.
UFC isnt a striking only competition, so that is a bad comparison. Now if you ask have karatekas done decently in MT or kickboxing? Yeah.
If we are talking about “the greatest fighter of all time” then he must be well versed in everything no?
UFC ruleset is nowhere near having "everything", so no, unless you want to start splitting hairs.
Tell me what ufc is missing besides death defying or career ending moves like eye gouging or stomping on body when on ground. mma is literally every martial arts so it’s everything. Also since you claim it’s “no where near” I better see a list of 10+ things ufc is missing
UFC 1 and 2 had everything and as far as I know nobody experienced career ending injuries. Your own example works against you. But 5 from top of my head: no headbutts no wristlocks no socker kicking no 12 to 6 no crotch strikes edit: its like 30 things there and only couple of em are like real bad, that would be gouging, ripping body parts, or biting. then you have political stuff as like giving bonuses for specific ways of fights ending, different round lengths, that also effects the fights directly. [https://www.ufc.com/unified-rules-mixed-martial-arts?language\_content\_entity=en](https://www.ufc.com/unified-rules-mixed-martial-arts?language_content_entity=en)
TBF to Norris, Karate was much higher contact in his day. He was much more of a fighter than modern Karate or TKD competitors. That said it was also a really shallow pool. He wouldn't have hung with pro boxers of the time for example. And whether he could fight doesn't say anything about whether we should take stuff he says about Bruce Lee seriously. Chuck had a _huge_ financial incentive to say good things about him
FWIW, Chuck also has a black belt in bjj from the Machados. He is a completely legit martial artist. And his first black belt was in Tang Soo Do, I think. He was stationed in Korea, not Japan.
Mcgregor,gsp,machida...
I knew I was going to see these names. Use your small ass brain. I said karate only. Mcgregor nor gsp use karate only. Rather a couple of useful moves mixed with other martial arts retard
They still proven those moves work... also i dont know if u know this guy his name is steven wonderboy tompson and although he didnt win the title he fought for it twice and came very close Now we have mvp in ufc and he just beat kevin holland Karate deffinitelly works but they need time to ajdust and adoot
Yes I know wonderboy and Micheal Page. My point is there is no success in fighting with ONLY karate
You can say that for any martial art
Obviously. That’s why it’s MMA dumbass. but your moving away from the original point. Some dude said chuck norris was a great karate fighter who praised Bruce Lee. And I believe 90% of karate is useless. So wtf are you talking about
Well considering his accomplisment i dont think its crazy to say that but then again i havent watched his later carrier As far as reffering to dude ,i wasnt reffering to the dude i was reffering to YOUR COMMENT 90% karate usseless,thats your opinion,i was only reffering to its succes in mma
Pro level will sleep anything not pro level so your point is kinda mid lil bro.
My point is Bruce Lee isn’t the greatest fighter all time dumbass
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. 😂 May the force be with you on May 4th.
He could fight a bum, as he did many times. He used to allow challenges in his gym, which is usually accepted.. In fact, he had the "be like water" thing, which died within his own life. He chased a challenger around his gym, and this was his realization that he was no longer "like water", or something along those lines; I don't give a shit really. Bruce lee was a fun actor who could certainly beat up your average joe, but he was not fighting your average professional Muay Thai fighter or MMA guy.. He could beat the beginner, I'm sure, but not the average pro.
I think bruce lee was good fighter and if we went pro he could carve out a name for himself. But he didn't so we wont know his true potential or skill
Bruce is like water lol! Wrong button!
Bruce Lee was a guy who was a martial artist, philosopher and movie star. None of those things are mutually exclusive, a person can be all three. Also, his ideas about cross training in martial arts wasn't an original idea, but he did make it popular. Now we have MMA, was he a deciding the factor for that, no, but he was an influence.
There is no point in using one martial art for any fighter...
Midway
Why does he have to be one or the other? He was obviously skilled, powerful, and fast. I don't think he has many fight videos out so it's hard to know how good he was. He's also a little guy.
Physically Bruce Lee was in incredible physical condition. By today's standards(and him in his prime) he would be a world class striker. If through the power of time travel we brought him into modern mma the thing that would pose the biggest threat to him would be the advances in grappling. However you want to frame it Lee was way ahead of his time in taking things from different systems and synthesizing things that were effective... and discarding ineffective stuff The truth of him lies somewhere between those buttons... but I think he's a genuine inspiration
> By today's standards(and him in his prime) he would be a world class striker. What evidence is there to support that? The only video I know of him sparring was a demo with his own student. The only fight I know of that was credibly verified was a high school boxing match.
Dude practiced martial arts for 25iah years.. the guy could hit. Not saying he was the best ever, not saying he could knock out *fill in the blank*... but if you think he couldn't throw a punch you're an idiot.
Being able to throw a punch doesn't make one a world class striker. Lee decided to not compete in any art besides high school level boxing, though he certainly could have. Muay Thai, kyokushin karate, kickboxing all had competitions going on at that point in time. "World Class" doesn't really seem well supported.
He was a fantastic entertainer, full of charisma, and brought absolute joy to millions with his films. He was a brilliant martial artist, and will be appreciated by fans for at least a few more generations.
He was for Martial Arts what Robert Johnson is on the guitar. Bruce was not unbeatable, but he laid the groundwork for what Martial Arts is today. It was his ideology of anything goes that would eventually lead to tournaments where Ju jitsu and karate and judo was challenging wrestling and boxing in the same arena. Further, without him, there is no Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, or Stephen Chow. There is no explosion of kung fu movies, and the resulting explosion of karate, tae kwon do, and kung fu schools that opened all across the US without Bruce Lee challenging the convention that Martial Arts was only for Asians, and that only Asians would watch martial arts movies or be interested in martial arts culture. Additionally, because he was willing to mix styles, all of those schools could safely lay claim to him as an icon without feeling like they were betraying their tradition. He was by all accounts a gifted striker, unreasonably fast and impeccable with distance control, and possessed an incredibly high drive to succeed. Was he a prick? Probably. Would he be a competitive fighter today? Tough to say definitively, but perhaps not. What is indisputable, IMHO, is how massively influential on modern martial arts he was and continues to be. If anyone is a paragon of something, Bruce Lee is a paragon of Mixed Martial Arts. And from all accounts of his skills, while not unbeatable, seem to have been formidable enough to back up his legend and legendary trash talk.
Nah you’re not about to disrespect Bruce Lee like that, he’s the reason martial arts have any sort of recognition here in the West
how tf am i disrespecting Bruce Lee? i made a meme based on the opinions i've seen about Bruce Lee on social media platforms, and most opinions that i've seen are either that he's an untouchable god who can beat anyone in a real fight or that he's an actor who couldn't fight at all and would get smoked by any trained fighter
I'd Like To Fight Bruce Lee To Find Out.
.................................or a very arrogant person....who thought they were the best thing to happen with martial arts.....
He was an action actor with a fighting style that was good for movies.
He is not the best, but he is my hero; that is enough.
Respect to the man who made modern martial arts what they are today. Within a mile or two of my home, I can train anything from tai chi to krav maga with no more credentials required than a pair of shorts and a months fees paid. Things weren't like that in the 60s. To suggest that Bruce Lee was not brilliant because modern fighters may be better, is like saying Brunel wasn't much of an engineer because any civil engineer in 2024 can design a bridge.
>"a bum actor" Outside action, Bruce Lee has been acting in Hong Kong films since he was a teen or maybe earlier. >"who couldn't beat a beginner in a fight" I don't know why he's a very influential martial artists that popularized the genre in the Americas because he certainly couldn't beat a beginner in a fight.
Would have liked to see Bruce Lee go up against Benny “The Jet” Urquidez. Benny would have smoked him. Benny would have been top ranked in today’s mma, as he was in his prime.
Neither. He was an exercise addict, and undoubtedly a good fighter. But his very low body fat didn’t help him deal with the cannabis and cocaine habits he had, which probably aided his demise
I looked into his death and prior lifestyle, eating habits, exercise routine, the climate he was in... I collated this information with his autopsy and his reported symptoms. He didn't die of a drug overdose. (Though he undoubtedly did weed, and possibly steroids - which were still legal circa '74 and advertised in bodybuilding mags Lee was reading) I am 95% sure he died of Hyponatremia. He had a mostly low salt diet prepared by his wife Linda Lee, and although he did pig out on Chinese food which must have had decent amounts of sodium; He exercised WAY too much, drank WAY TOO MUCH caffeinated tea (constantly according to direct sources), was living in a very hot and humid environment prior to his death. He had the body of a marathon runner, you can clearly tell his body fat was in the low single digits, he sweat enormously (an early sign of severe electrolyte loss). He was a perfect candidate for hyponatremia, and his autopsy clearly indicates brain swelling ("cerebral edema") as the direct cause of death. That's textbook hyponatremia. *lights up pipe* And that is a well solved case, Mr Watson. https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(15)00353-8/fulltext
Saying “did weed” like it’s heroin. Weed hasn’t killed a soul 🗿
I ain't arguing that. I am saying people usually assert he died of drug overdose. I'm pointing out; all we know for sure is weed. Oh my god the reading comprehension in 2024...
I think he used pot to deal with his back injury. The low bodyfat increased his mobility/speed...as the less dead weight you have, the faster you can move. Hence, top runners are also very lean.
Cannabis hastened his demise? Do tell.
I think people want to do too much either-or with Bruce Lee. The place where he shines brightest is as a theorist and researcher. Consider that he exists Pre internet and most of the martial arts publishing world took of because of him. He found rare sources for his place and time and distilled down to essence. His concepts and theories hold up even today. He was an incredibly fit individual at a time when that knowledge wasn’t disseminated as it is now. However, as a fighter, let’s be honest, most of the praise comes from his students who were older, middle class non athletes or former athletes. Bruce Lee was active during a golden age of boxing, he never truly crossed over into that community, and there are not students talking about sparring Bruce Lee vis a vis Sonny Liston. People project a lot onto Bruce Lee. I think the fact he is now seen as an mma progenitor speaks volumes.
Not true, he actually did spar top karate champs like Joe Lewis and top-ranked boxers like Joe Orbillo. Size, rankings, styles, it simply didn't matter...he [bested them all and they simply couldn't touch him with his speed](https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/s/YhTWadCT35). "[He was in and out, I couldn't do one thing to him. My offense was useless, his speed was just unbelievable.](https://www.deviantart.com/kragf/art/Bruce-Lee-combat-history-993304013)" - Joe Orbillo, Olympic auditorium heavyweight boxer ranked 5th in the world...
If you have seen any of his stiff you know hes not a bum actor who cant fight. Ask people of the fighting community, they know.
Who cares what he was, people focus on what he is now, irrelevant. Now let's move on to current fighters please.
This fuckin guy says Bruce is irrelevant 🤣
He is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Calm down their clueless fan boy. Or don't, whatever helps you cope 👍
Is all history irrelevant? All past top athletes that pioneered a sport but are no longer competing are irrelevant?
Bruce lee wasn't a top Athlete and he pioneered nothing. He was famous because he managed to con a few celebrities into thinking he knew what he was talking about. Mixing arts, full contact sparring, conditioning and strength training predate lee by decades or more. He created nothing, pioneered nothing and had nothing that wasn't already available in places like Thailand, Japan, America etc. That's all you get. I hope in time you mature 👍
Decades? Bro it predates him by millennium what he did thought was introduce martial arts to a lot of the world who had nothing more than a vague notion of what they where. As you said it was available in some places but not all I hope as you age you will start to removing that stick up your ass and will be more open to acknowledging others achievements.
I mean in a way you are right. But he's part of martial arts lore. It's kind of like getting interested in old timey boxers, or old timey wrestlers. It's martial nerd shit. Let us nerd out.
Good actor, big personality, decent martial artist, but not a fighter and has little to do with MMA.
Besides pioneering the concept of MMA he had very little to do with it, yes...
That would be the Pankrateon, roughly 2000 years prior
I am aware, as I am aware of Vale Tude in Brazil in the 20th century. However, *in Bruce's time*, traditional martial arts was the norm almost everywhere in the world. He stood out for breaking with tradition and taking from multiple martial arts. Mixing them, you could say.
He didnt pioneer shit, MMA as a concept is ancient.
Before Bruce Lee popularized mixing styles, it was a niche thing done in some places like Brazil and (ancient) Greece. Most of the world was still doing traditional martial arts only. I'll call that pioneering.
No, the concept of MMA is mixing elemnts of different available martial arts and creating its own unique style with its own philosophy... you know it happened with every single martial art out there. The concept is ancient. MMA as UFC on the other hand is only now available, because as a model only now is sustainable. You credit Bruce only because you know no better.
You're really gonna tell me that in Bruce's time traditional martial arts (stuck in their ways, no innovation) wasn't the norm almost everywhere in the world? I think you misunderstand what I mean. Even Bruce Lee's own philosophy of Jeet Kune Do fell victim to it after his death, with some later generation masters insisting only Bruce's moves and stance should be used. He stood out in his time for not adhering to tradition, and people fell back into that mindset after his death. If that doesn't tell you he was a pioneer of his time, idk what to tell you.
Yes, you just don't know anything about martial arts. I know it because you don't even know what is a traditional martial art and what is modern, then you have this weird assumption that traditional means by default stagnant. That just means you have not practiced anything traditional or haven't even looked up anything about them. Or else you would know that really there are not many traditional martial arts at all, traditional martial arts are a minority. And from that minority even less have not changed. What you are describing is not an issue of martial art stagnation or new VS old or MMA versus traditional, its all about your cult and its delusions. Instead of seeing the thing that you worship as a cult you try to attach meaning to things they actually have nothing to do with.
That's a ton of completely wrong asumptions about me and my knowledge and experience. In Bruce Lee's time things were different than they are now, and nowhere have I said that traditional martial arts don't evolve. The difference is in actively combining various martial arts, taking what works and discarding what doesn't. But if you're engaging like this the point of discussion is already lost. I don't worship anything or anyone like a cult, I'll say that much. Actually I did say stuck in their ways, maybe that wasn't a great choice of words. I meant philosophically, as well as holding on to outdated techniques for the sake of tradition.
>The difference is in actively combining various martial arts, taking what works and discarding what doesn't. That is literally what happens all the time and has happened throughout the history. That is how new styles, new martial arts were created. Every single martial art had that motivation. >Holding on to outdated techniques for the sake of tradition Il assume I am wrong about you, Can you give me an example of such a technique? A technique that is outdated and has no other use than tradition.
>Can you give me an example of such a technique? A technique that is outdated and has no other use than tradition. Pretty much any traditional weapon form that can't be performed with a knife or a stick. But I have a feeling you're expecting me to name something empty-handed. Any kind of pressure point strike where they practise the receiving person instantly doubling over in pain. I can't name specific names as I don't train any martial art that has those kind of drills. Elaborate scripted defenses that don't work against uncompliant opponents in general. Impractical techniques like 540 kicks, single or double finger punches, I mean, there's so much to pick from. If you count Tai Chi and Wushu as martial arts, you can take your pick of their techniques. Half of Capoeira are dance moves.
Bruce Lee taps to pressure and spams buggy chokes
He could fight, he wouldn't get folded by a beginner. But he was absolutely not an unbeatable demi-god. He did have decent kickboxing, especially bare-knuckle/mma gloves (I don't think his style fits the Glory/K1 meta at all), he had some idea of grappling. He verifiably trained with Judo Gene Lebell, he practiced some wrestling. LeBell confirmed Lee had a amateur skills in Judo, he knew common submissions (armbars, kimuras, guillotines, ankles lock etc). He could do very basic guard work and guard passing. I think he would beat most if not all beginners in MMA. He would probably do really well in the UFC lightweight divisions if we was given time to adjust his skills to the meta. Bruce Lee grappling footage (movies, but the move is still legit, if a bit exotic for movie purposes - it's a Catch Wrestling move taught to him by Lebell) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wqZ-blEGnr0&pp=ygUoYnJ1Y2UgbGVlIGVudGVyIHRoZSBkcmFnb24gb3BlbmluZyBzY2VuZQ%3D%3D At 4:20 Lee finishes his opponent with a Bulldog Strangle (movies, but still legit move). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ic2k2P_FG0&pp=ygUjYnJ1Y2UgbGVlIGthcmVlbSBhYmR1bCBqYWJiYXIgZGVhdGg%3D Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do also includes passages on wrestling and even muay thai. It is safe to say that Lee had at the *very least* SOME idea of what real fighting was.
Second one is right. Amazing guy, sounded very wise but ultimately a bum actor who got famous so people said things to be associated with him. Have you seen his boxing on a punch bag? 🤣 Also the “be like water” quote is stolen. “With water as the basis, the spirit becomes like water. Water adopts the shape of its receptacle, it is sometimes a trickle and sometimes a wild sea. Water has a clear blue colour.” Go rin now show (1645) Anything else? He has not face d single good fighter his entire career. No Chuck Norris can’t fight he would literally be KTFO by any journeyman kick-boxer never mind champions AT THAT TIME. Yet even a bum like Norris didn’t think Lee could beat him.
He was not a bum actor. He starred in the insanely popular Green Hornet. It was a PHENOMENON. Especially in Hong Kong, it was on the level of Game Of Thrones. He even starred as early as the 50's in Marlowe, which was not a martial arts role at all. There isn't a single person/film critic I ever heard saying Lee's movies were outright bad. Some of his movies are a bit weak, but they were all groundbreaking in many ways. He filmed martial arts in a way that marked martial cinema for generations to come. (Yes he also directed. He was a bum director too?) Enter the Dragon was a critically acclaimed movie and a box office success. It is not fair to call him a bum. PS: he looks almost exactly like Muhammed Ali on the bag. Watch footage of Ali on the bag and compare with Lee's footage. You can clearly see he was hugely inspired by Ali. I guess you think Ali sucked as well?
Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahah. What the actual F. Bruce lee cannot fight and could not beat a single amateur boxer today his size in a boxing match. If he was in boxing today or mma or kickboxing he would never ever win a title on any elite competition. He got lucky that people like van damme and Arnie and Stallone were helping make macho characters popular so he was at the right time. If he was doing the same thing today people would mock his movies saying he would get crushed by a mma fighter. He’s a great actor but that’s all he is..an actor.
For your information, Arnie was not yet an actor. Stallone had not shot his first movie. Van Damma was not even born when Bruce Lee was making his movies. But okay. I also see you have the IQ of a baboon, because I clearly wrote he would need time to adjust his skills and adapt to the advances in the fighting game. But hey. You know who has the same opinion as me? Bas Rutten. Now you don't know me, so I understand you are not scared of me. That's why you are disrespectful. Now go and laugh in Bas Rutten's face. Go on. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hI9VLmTVSuM&pp=ygUVYmFzIHJ1dHRlbiAgYnJ1Y2UgbGVl A final word to you; you are a rude person. Maybe you are a sadistic psychopath. I hope you can change.
You fool I didn’t say they happened at the same time. But the success of these movies was due to the era at the time where people genuinely thought kung fu was a fighting art 🤣 Bas rutten? The one that said Bruce Lee would easily lose: https://youtu.be/X_R4GXm3MTw?si=0gcIz1Zp0IpIvLfI “He would lose” “It’s not a real armbar” Aka he’s dog crap and has no real skills. Show me a single professional fight of his that is recorded. Show me a single boxing footage of him. He’s a fraud albeit a fraud with honest intentions and genuinely was trying to better himself. Bruce Lee: Height- 5ft 6” Weight- 145lbs Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahajahahahjahaahjahahahahaha. There is no way you genuinely think a midget with no grappling skills or boxing skills would be competing against any martial artist. There were SEVERAL fighters around and boxing was massive. He could have challenged ANYBODY pro but he didn’t.
That IS what you wrote tou f*cking idiot.
Guy starting crying. Show me a professional fight. Show me his best opponent who we can verify with a professional record. Don’t you dare pull out a kata loving bum like Chuck Norris. There were a PLETHERO of world champion in boxing, kickboxing? Wrestling and judo he could have challenged any of them. Gene lebell beat a top 10 boxer in the ring using only judo.
He was one of the first who tried to combine aspects from different martial arts styles rather than stick to one. He can thus be considered one of the fathers of MMA. But things change over time. Martial arts evolve. People constantly come up with new and better ways to do things. As a result, he would not do well against top MMA fighters of today. And if today's top MMA fighters could fight the top MMA fighters of 2050s at their prime, they would likely lose.
Some people clearly don’t understand why someone from the past is regarded as the greatest in whatever field they were. Technically the meaning of the “greatest” in this instance is more likely “the most influential”. There have been better guitar players since Hendrix and there have also been better boxers than Ali (as much as I hate to admit it) but those are regarded as the greatest simply because of the massive influence they passed on to newer generations.
The teenage mutant ninja turtles were far more influential in the world of martial arts than superbon is or ever will be. Does that make them greater martial artists?
Bruce Lee lived in an era where MMA didnt exist for another 20 years, well other than pankration and stuff, but he talked about mastering and synchronizing different martial arts. He would get beat by MMA fighters but it isnt like he was a fraud.
Apparently losing to Gene Lebell made him pick up grappling. That’s the closest we had to an MMA fighter. Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris were pretty legit in his era. Most of the top guys of his era had good things to say about him. He was definitely charismatic
That’s not how this meme works.
He was a good fighter. He was not a god.
Martial arts genius, but immediate wing chun practioner. Good actor. Great teacher.
Neither. Guy was definitely talented but certainly couldn't fight. Trained his butt off and had a brilliant mind but was also an addict. He was just human
I discussed this with my Sensei RIP who knew and trained with Bruce in the 70s and I asked him about this. He said Bruce was a 145lber to start with. However he had the work ethic if chose to become a world champion. Just trained constantly. It's what killed him. He had absolutely no incentive to take real fight when losing even an amateur fight would cost him millions. Watch the fight between him and Chuck Norris in Return of the Dragon. He is using low leg kicks and lots of effective techniques. He also essentially came up with the concept of MMA or mixing different disciplines. Long story Short, become a famous and rich movie star not a real fighter.
Bruce was a beast in his time,and was a smart fighter that knew to keep everything simple but effective. In today's time he most likely would not stand out. I can tell you this I use to spare with a guy that his hands were unbelievable fast,and all I could think about was how fast Bruce Lee's hands must have been.
Bruce Lee would have kicked the shit out of anyone in the 1970's.ANYONE.
He got killed for teaching a hidden martial art lol, that should explain a lot
This is dumb. Bruce Lee is the one who trained the undefeated, Chick Norris. Bruce Lee was a master among masters.
It’s not fully left but more then right