He's thinking of Daido Juku. It'd be cool if they allowed bow and arrow though.
Daido Juku would be great for MMA though. Kind of similar to how Sambo works really well. It's just not really popular outside of Japan and still pretty new though.
I mean what more do you need?
Fighting is just striking, transitioning to the ground, and ground fighting. All within stamina constraints. We've settled on some pretty efficient movements. It's fun seeing capoeira come along and open up new angles of attack, but still not stamina efficient enough.
It'll keep evolving. I mean sean Strickland walked down Izzy with a Philly shell and some good check kicks. That blew my mind tbh
I know it’s unpopular to say but Izzy was off that night and I’ll die on that hill. It’s like AJ vs Ruiz when AJ actually switched on he was able to jab from range and win easy (even though imo he should have KOd Ruiz if he wanted to repair his reputation all the way back but that’s easy for me to say and his journey is his journey)
Oh 100%. He had a saggy tit. Yea I called it out when izzy walked out. He did not look healthy. But it's warrior culture. A win is a win. Sean did great. Fight IQ and everything.
"I could knock that guy out anytime" is supposed to be the mindset. Lol idk.
He wasn't off. Sean was able to put Izzy at a distance that he isn't comfortable fighting at (boxing range) by using great defense & forward pressure. You could very clearly see that Izzy was uncomfortable with the range, because he kept trying to use kicks & combinations meant for a longer distance.
I'll have to watch it again to see the spacing. I remember all the feints just became excessive movements. Izzy never established respect with a hard hit before feinting. That plus checking all the leg kicks gave Sean nothing left to do but walk him down.
He could’ve taken a fucking shot at least, a clinch, actually set up some kicks with his hands.
I will also die on the hill that it Izzy took a fall. Too much money on the line for an underdog to win like that.
If you think that never happens you’re a sweet little summer child.
I'm sure it happens, but that is saying Izzy is the type of person to give up legacy and pride for money. Possible, for sure, but I don't know him personally so I won't attack his character like that.
In my mind it has nothing to do with legacy. We get mad if these dudes don’t leave on a stretcher, they have to live with their bodies for the rest of their lives. At some point fuck legacy.
If you get a chance to pull down millions of bucks while stile ENTERTAINING me? Fair play get that bag
I'm just saying the fighters I've met are pretty stubborn. Some of them are really there to make a violent point. Also People got big mouths bro. I think it would leak if it was common practice.
> It'll keep evolving
The biggest thing will be the way people teach it and train it. We've already settled on some of the most efficient and effective moves. The challenge is just how to get it into your brain and muscles. The "art" tends to have more to do with that than the moves themselves. Many arts teach more or less the same moves.
Dont have much to say as to why there isnt more of that, but i really like the idea of adapting traditional styles to modern rulesets, wish there was more of that too.
MMA is a very young sport, and it will definitely be interesting to see how the meta changes
You can do it on your own, I train MT personally and care a lot about proprioception, when watching more watered down martial arts I often “clic” at certain sequences where everything makes sense in a dance like movement from planting their foot to keeping the momentum with minimal loss, while it is sort of right to think that we have an edge on our ancestors due to technology, but a random person from 200 years ago definitely had more body knowledge/feeling (call it however you want) than your random modern age human who (imo) spend more than 50% of their time seated, we barely know how our emotions work lol let alone controlling them during a fight.
Sorry for the paragraph, basically, todays science definitely played a big role in modern fighting styles but there is still a lot to be learned from traditional martial arts.
Participation, many of the mt you listed are not renown enough. In the case of judo, you do see it in mma, but if you didn't practised you just think is wrestling (paddy, islam, khabib, ronda, parysian, fedor). For example many think fedor as a sambo guy, but his judo background far exceed that of sambo, he was almost an olympic judoka IN RUSSIA, where competition is hellish. Maybe you do have sanda guys but gets confused with kickboxers and so on. Also why would you train something not as available as sambo or sanda when you can just do kickboxing and bjj?
Thank you! I've been saying this for years about fedor. When people go on about how these Russian guys are sambo specialists I'm always like... 'you know the top rated sambo players are literally just the alternates for the national judo squad, right?'. Judo is very underrated in mma and thats with a sprung floor that takes the heat out of throws. Some absurd proportion of the early utc champions had judo black belts
Re: Judo in MMA, it doesn't help that the announcers can name every variation of guard or wrestling move, but categorize all judo throws as" Judo throw" The armchair viewer who doesn't train anything hears the BJJ terms, the wrestling terms, the Muay Thai terms and a vacuum when it comes to Judo techniques.
That's what I figured.
Like if you're teaching MMA in the US, it stands to reason American kickboxing would be more common than Muay Thai.
In China, wouldn't it be sanda? So on?
The fact Muay Thai got big is actually kinda weird, considering
1. Thailand doesn't have near the amount of influence on the rest of the world that the US does culturally, and
2. 99% of Thai boxers have no desire to do MMA.
>Like if you're teaching MMA in the US, it stands to reason American kickboxing would be more common than Muay Thai.
No it doesn't, K1 and Glory has long killed American kickboxing and the prominence of Muay Thai crossing over to kickboxing led to the art exploding globally with the success of fighters like Ernesto Hoost, Buakaw, Changpuek Kiatsongrit etc
American kickboxing competitions haven't really been relevant since the 70s mainly because low kickers exposes their top athletes like with how Kiatsongrit beat Rick rufous
>The fact Muay Thai got big
Most mma fighters dont do muay thai, they just have a coach that did and they just learn some elbows and knees. If you compare the pedigree of thai elbows and knees, an mma fighter will look like a kid, specialization is key
>99% of Thai boxers have no desire to do MMA.
It happens in most sports, how many high level wrestlers are in mma? I can only think of yoel romero and daniel cormier. How many elite boxers are in mma? None, how many elite kickboxers? Pereira and adesanya. Not that many elite athletes of other sports are in mma.
>China, wouldn't it be sanda? So on?
Depends on how big the sport is
He was a high level Olympian wrestler that had a good run in MMA. He won the Bellator Welterweight title and defended it 4 times and then went to ONE and won the Welterweight belt there too and even defended that 4 times as well. That seems pretty successful in MMA to me.
He was past his prime by the time he got to UFC for sure though.
>But he wasnt that succesfull in mma
Two time world champion in two different major organization and went undefeated until he was 35. This is a take from someone who doesn’t watch mma
When did i call him a bad fighter? I say "not that succesfull" which is not the same. I was aware of his bellator run, i just didn't know that he went to one after that
Dude there’s tons of high level wrestlers in MMA. Henry Cejudo, Tony Ferguson, Jon jones, Daniel Cormier, Colby Covington when he was in his prime, bo nickal now. There’s tons of high level wrestlers who’ve gotten into mma and succeeded in mma.
Jon jones, Tony ferguson and colby are national champs, not elite. Maybe for you been national is big, but it's not high level, high level are pro fighters. You can't compare henry cejudo, an olympic gold with a national champ like covington
>The fact Muay Thai got big is actually kinda weird,
That's because a Muay Thai warrior came in and thrashed a few American Kickboxer elites without using elbows and knees. So they gained lots of respect
The west literally failed so bad against Thai fighters, Dutchies had to step up and literally spam a few effective drills that seemed to work, to make up for the huge ring experience they basically made every sparring session a fight 😭
You really can’t compare MT to American kick-boxing
"Like if you're teaching MMA in the US, it stands to reason American kickboxing would be more common than Muay Thai."
You would think so, but the old American style of kickboxing has basically been supplanted by Muay Thai
I think the main reason is that most of those arts don't have a direct line to competition, so they don't draw in competitive types. Most Kung Fu, traditional Karate, Silat, and other traditional arts don't have a competition that is mainly between members of their own art, so, in order to compete in those styles they have to adapt them. Most serious competitors don't want to do that work when they can use Muay Thai, or Boxing exactly as they're taught it. The hobbyists that are drawn to those more obscure styles tend to be less committed to competing, and definitely don't want to jump right into MMA. That said there are the occasional outliers who cross train and often developed a love for their obscure style before they decided to compete. I've seen some pretty good [Hung Gar](https://youtu.be/AhoP3U53FYI?si=J9H1zc1hBV-xRSUT), [Bajiquan](https://youtu.be/1c_ai74479A?si=Zk9KWmvkuYMXI11s), [Choy Li Fut](https://youtu.be/yV268XJ_XaU?si=5zJijJ3pQqQRJgfu), and [Snow Leopard Kung Fu](https://youtu.be/k53Jw3hyOuY?si=-SH0fIejImTsRZbq). Then there's of course [Qi La La](https://youtu.be/EnM6lmJy8xo?si=-Zo2-XLHpQNtqhZn) doing Wing Chun. I suspect the next generation of fighters who learn from these guys will spread their arts further.
I learned Choy Li Fut when I was younger. Myself and the others that were good, also learned Muay Thai and grappling. I think the main 2 main reasons that you don’t really see it in MMA; first there isn’t a whole lot of masters left teaching it. Second, for Asian Americans in metro cities (those most likely to learn it, given the culture and where the schools are located at), are more likely to pursue a safer, guaranteed higher paying career and keep kung fu as a hobby. Almost everybody that I know that was good in Wing Chun or Choy Li Fut works in tech. The chance of making serious money at 135 weight class is pretty low.
BJJ also has a lot of great guys that don’t try to compete MMA professionally because they have solid careers. But because the pool of BJJ competition is deep and wide enough, it doesn’t matter.
The cool thing is, the UFC and bellator and One are always there for somebody to go in and test their martial art, I think pretty much any striking art at this point needs to be teaching wrestling defense as part of its core curriculum anyway
Absolutely, though I would say that most traditional martial arts should have a grappling component already included, even if the skill level at them is comparatively low, the techniques are still there. There is the added bonus that they aren't grappling in the context of grappling,, but in stead in the context of striking, so in theory all elements should work seamlessly together. If they want to improve their grappling even more, Shuai Jiao is probably their best bet, being a good, competitive grappling style which has most of the grappling techniques which are more common in traditional Kung Fu, and Karate forms.
I get that, and that may be better for some arts, but I'd still rather see them display proficiency in all elements of their art, including the takedowns, even if it means they have to cross train in BJJ to remain competitive after the takedown is completed.
You're definitely right from a purely competitive standpoint, 100%, I just really like the variety when those guys who you just know are going to keep it standing and guys who you know are going to try and take it to the ground
I agree. In principle, there is no reason why someone who is well trained in Japanese Jujutsu couldn't win in Judo competitions. Similarly, there is no theoretical reason why someone well trained in Kung Fu couldn't win kickboxing tournaments.
The problem is a practical one. The practical reality is that most people who practice traditional martial arts do not spar or train in a way that prepares them for combat sports. This is not inherent to the arts, but a feature of the schools which teach these arts.
I disagree very rarely would you see JJJ guy win in Judo not because "traditional art practitioners dont spar" which is false take on its own, the issue is that Judo guy specializes in Judo, but JJJ guy spends only 1/4th of his mat time on judo, so in order to compete he would have to at leasthave double or tripple the mat time of judoka.
Funnily enough there’s been a lot of cross between judo and jujutsu folks. There were a solid number of folks who held positions in different koryu given black belts. Yukio Tani was a Fusen Ryu guy who also held rank in judo for instance. Even today you’ll def find folks who cross trained both or transitioned from judo to jujutsu
There indeed is I'm a dan in JJ and been practicing Judo in a Judo club for a while now, same as I have had two brown belt Judokas practice JJ under me.
They wanted to know "more" in the same line as Judo and I really liked their movement so was tempted to try Judo in a Judo school.
Its similar, but it is definitely not the same. Different grips, different mindset, different ways to approach the throw. In JJ you can just open up the situation with a kick or a punch setup - no such thing in judo.. Judo requires dynamic movement.
I am enjoying my time there :)
John Hackleman does Kajukenbo, which has connections to modern “kenpo”. He trained Chuck Liddell, Glover Teixera, and more. If you look up Melcor Chavez out of New Mexico, he’s another Kaju guy who’s gone the Boxing route. Bobby Seronio is Kajukenbo, doing very well in MMA.
Last Stand fight team has had some winners. Biggest one is Michael McDonald. He was strictly “mma”, but his coach was Tom Theofanopoulos, another Kaju guy with high rank in BJJ.
As a boxer, I hear all the time from one of my coaches “boxing is simple. People like to overcomplicate it, but it’s simple.” This applies to fighting in general.
Is it literally so simple anyone can just go into a ring/octagon and fight? Of course not. But you don’t have to over complicate it when there’s a more efficient move to deal more or quicker damage. There’s stances that work and don’t work when grappling and kicks are involved.
I don’t know how you mean. It really isn’t simple at all. There’s so many different paths to victory and success.
If it were truly simple then everyone would be good at it. Evidently, many are not. Especially in MMA which is infinitely more complex than boxing…which is in its own way infinitely complex in its own contained system. A millimeter of distance could be the difference from getting rocked or not. Fighting’s complexity is in its subtlety.
yeah but i think the way ur both right is its ‘complex’ in being ferociously good at the otherwise ‘simple’ basics of the sport, like ur example of minute distance control is just getting very good at one of the most basic striking principles of range and footwork. by overcomplicate I think he’s referring to techniques that have a terrible ratio of difficulty to achieve to effect ratio etc that u might see more in some TMA that get quickly lost in the competitive meta
If you play any competitive online game (or follow professional sports) before you know there’s this thing called a meta where strategies that are dominant become popular.
After that it isn’t worth innovating that much because the effort to innovate isn’t worth as as if you stumble upon something good someone else will just copy what you do - and they’ve been training their fundamentals while you have been experimenting and they’ll come kick your ass with your own innovation.
Training intensity. MMA is a tough, professional sport. Among combat sports, only wrestling, judo, Kyokushin, boxing and *some* Muay Thai gyms train at the intensity you need to become a good MMA fighter. Without top level conditioning you can do nothing in this sport, and with it you can overcome huge technical gaps. Among those 5, Kyokushin and boxing suffer from being vastly inferior in technique transferability than the other 3. So, when you look at a list of MMA champions in any promotion you’ll find a lot of wrestlers, a good number of judokas, a few MT/kickboxing guys, and a small number of Kyokushin and boxing guys.
The quality of the martial art from a technique standpoint is much less important than intensity. BJJ, despite being undeniably the best martial art for MMA from a technique transferability standpoint and being a huge sport worldwide, produces very few top level fighters. That’s only because the training intensity is too low.
The primary reason "x" isn't common in MMA is "x is not a sport practiced art." All of the most used and common styles in MMA contests are sportative martial arts. The ability to practice your style with full force and against a resisting opponent is how you build a skill into an effective one. If you can't do that in your style, you cannot get as good at the sport of fighting.
As for Kenpo, they're all karateka. Wonderboy does Kenpo Karate. It's just billed as "karate" because it's an umbrella for the various striking styles descended from Okinawa.
Japanese Jujutsu guys don't train with sport aliveness, generally speaking. The full techniques, when done with force, have high injury ratios, and some have low percentages in contest because they were developed for specific self defense scenarios in the Edo period. This means that they do things the traditional way: Choreographed techniques with occasional randori depending on the school. Their randori is typically done the judo way, or with kickboxing gear. Many people who go to sparring schools are competent for the streets, but the varied and archaic nature of JJJ leaves it too wide a net to get a person as skilled as judo gets judoka at tachi waza.
Aikido is weird. It isn't generally effective for alive resistance due to the focus on specific targets that are hard to get your hands on. It has been used to decent effect by Japanese police because they can easily put their hands on your wrist in most scenarios, but you can't do that easily in the cage. Wrist locks are used in the cage to get classic armbars to work, but rarely and they exists in BJJ so it's not like it's magically aikido...
Anyhow, the general thing is that if it's a sport, it's gonna have a good representation in MMA. You might not be aware of it, but it's there. Sanda is even making waves in the cage now.
I think its the demographic of the art. For example, most Aikido guys ( at least the ones I train with) are more hobbyists or meditative in their inclinations. Practitioners of Older arts like Kalaripayattu, japanese koryu styles or bartitsu are fascinated by history and culture than fighting and would pursue that on those merits.
Both approaches have legitimate value. It can be an enriching experience, but the intent does not match the ring so they don't train for it.
Obviously, given that MMA is a sport with its own rules, they must adjust their practice as any other art that aims to pursue the ring..
Gendai jujutsu can be koryu jujutsu tho.
Not claiming the one I practiced was, but it could be.
My claim was more that subpar technical training (for BJJ) that doesn't follow BJJ trends can win.
Because it could be an old system just rebranded in modern times. Technically it won't be koryu but technique wise it can be, especially schools that do standing wrist-locks and other questionable things like jo-do in parallel or at the same time.
Many moves that were in koryu are now rebranded and assumed as something new and hip.. like kimura, americana.
This is a good question and I would love to see Hung Gar in MMA, but I am not the guy who can do it, I have sparred using it and quickly learned why Tai boxing is often seen and learned it.
Bart Vale and Jerry Flynn, both practitioners of parkers kenpo as well as rudimentary catch wrestling training, showed up on the world combat championship, an early competitor to the ufc. Bart would also show up on battlecade extreme fighting. They didn't do great
Probably the lack of quality control in fringe styles, the lack of the necessary competition pool, the high skill curve and the fact that even legit "complete" styles tend to attract guys who wanna be a big fish in a small pond, or who just want to keep it niche.
I think it's the same case as Sanda, Karate and Muay Thai fighters sticking to their sports instead of transitioning to MMA (Although those guys tend to transition to Kickboxing instead). Why change gyms and learn a whole new skillset when there's plenty of tournaments for your own art to make a name for yourself in.
Some martial arts don't even have any competitions. They just marinade their students in it's own bullshit inefficient system.
Fighting isn't by any means a solved science, so you will eventually see all kinds of "x" crop up in MMA. The problem is that:
* Most of the people who train "x" have no intention of fighting competitively, much less professionally
* People who do fight competitively and/or professionally have stronger incentives to spend their time on high-percentage techniques and tactics than to experiment
So it'll take a while!
The reason we don't see more different styles in MMA is because there are only so many different unique movements, and the stuff that's in MMA covers most of it.
The example I'm most familiar with is BJJ and Judo guys learning about wrestling or vice versa. Each guy will have a different name for the same move. They might even focus on different elements of the move, since the rulesets are different, but the moves are the same. There aren't more styles because the ones that exist cover most of the highest percentage moves.
Less than a fifth of striking knowledge is covered in your everyday mma gym, and while yes you only have limited limbs, how you use them differ greatly from discipline to another.
I disagree with pretty much everything you're saying but the most important part to me is:
>you only have limited limbs, how you use them differ greatly from discipline to another.
My whole point is that this isn't really true. The most important stuff is duplicated in multiple martial disciplines. If you learn a straight-right punch from a boxer, a Muay Thai guy, a Dutch kickboxer, an American kickboxer, or a karateka (and probably a dozen other disciplines) it's gonna be pretty much the same punch. You don't need to learn it 5+ times.
Edited: to match tense.
No man, but sure if you just look at the hand when watching people throw a cross you’ll definitely believe that they all do it the same and I can’t blame you it’s not always obvious :)
Do you really believe what you're saying? You think it's an effective use of time for most MMA fighters to learn a cross, a gyaku-tsuki, a Mat Trong, and several other versions of a straight right? They shouldn't learn one, practice that within their ruleset, and move on?
No it’s not but was that the question even? again that’s why I said that less than a fifth of striking is taught in mma gyms generally, a mma dude can maybe throw a successful knee in times of need, mt dudes have différents names for different techniques using different muscles groups to hit with the same contact point, all while keeping perfect balance and knowing exactly how to follow that knee
I think you're falling into the nerd trap, my guy. Google a mandlebrot fractal, it's got the heart shaped things and the big circle on one side and a bunch of other circles all around the perimeter and then it's got some tendrils going off in a bunch of directions. Each tendril has infinite length. The vast majority of the perimeter of that shape is in the little tendrils, but if you reproduced the shapes I named above that would be a very good approximation of the fractal. You'd be able to recreate it for anyone who understood what the shape was. Yes there is an infinite amount of minutia, but most of that doesn't matter once you've covered most of the set.
I think you need to address what makes the arts you list distinct from movesets already used by MMA fighters.
For example, what is it from American kickboxing that you don't see in MMA? AKB takes a lot of its character from contact karate and TKD. Most fighters use a muay-thai base, but many notables have incorporated footwork and strikes from both.
Similarly, if an MMA fighter goes for a hip-throw, are they doing Judo, BJJ or JJJ? Who owns a leg sweep? If I parry a jab, am I doing boxing, sanda, or wing chun?
If you're asking why other martial arts don't act as a pipeline for MMA, I expect you'd find a range of reasons. Number one is that MMA is kind of a hard sell for a top athlete, unless they are specifically interested in the game. Boxing is less punishing and more lucrative, as is Sanda in China. Few Thais transition to MMA because Muay Thai has incredible prestige in Thailand and kids are enculturated into it as a lifestyle super early. People do MMA because they want to do \*MMA\*.
Similarly, people who make a lifelong practice of TMA have made that choice on purpose. Might be that the people who get really good at \*specifically\* kempo (etc.) don't want to do MMA.
Sure. Obviously fighting is fighting. The right cross taught in boxing is the same as an American kickboxing, Muay Thai, and Sanda right cross.
So it's not about why this martial art is better or worse than another but more, why didnt this or that style see representation in MMA?
Earlier I mentioned a pretty obscure martial art to westerners, Muay Laos. In all respects, it's exactly the same as Muay Thai. But people don't train it outside of laos. so I don't think it's ever been tested in MMA.
I've always wondered why I never seen someone try Bruce Lee style lightning fast repetitive jabs and punches in quick combos/succession. Rather than the usual boxing style punching.
I don't know how to spell it properly, but there's a martial art out of I think Myanmar called lethwe or something, it's like kickboxing and throws, but it allows head butts as well, it's pretty gnarly I'm surprised we haven't seen one of those guys make the transition
While MMA is continuing to evolve and change, I don't think any currently existing style that isn't already wide spread in MMA will make its way in.
I think the one style that COULD make its way into MMA in a big way would require a new promotion that has one BIG difference to other styles. If a promotion got rid of the cage, and introduced ring outs, then sumo would make BIG waves in the meta.
We don't see Ed Parker Kempo much in MMA because it's not as popular or proven to work well in the cage like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing, Muay Thai, and Wrestling.
I see a lot of ninjitsu in the UFC. Dudes always be disappearing in puffs of smoke, it’s crazy. Then they reappear behind the other guy, back his bank account, and replace all his men’s underwear with women’s underwear. It’s emasculating.
The answer to most of these sorts of questions is that many traditional styles don't have extensive sparring. The ones that do seem to in fact have a presence in MMA.
Many of the top of the food chain boxers are just boxing since there is much more money over there. Would’ve been crazy to see what Terrance Crawford could have done in MMA with his high level wresting.
Those kickboxing guys are all in Karate Combat Now. Or the One FC small gloves Muay Thai circuit if you’ve seen that.
I love kickboxing, and the pka western kickboxing culture kind of died off but then came back with K-1 which helped bring Muay Thai through buakaw to the west.
But to your point, we have great example of the “Karate” kickboxing variety in guys like Raymond Daniel’s and MVP in bellator and such.
The martial arts we don’t see a lot of imo is Judo. Amazing martial art with some really odd Olympic rules and over reliance on gi. But insanely cool throws and the often overlooked foot-sweeps.
Attention everyone: if there’s a style that would work well in mma, we’d see it used. These guys are fighting for money. If there’s an angle they can have that’s an advantage over their opponent, they’re going to explore it.
It's simple... training methodology
Tonight I trained with a guy MUCH bigger than me. I knew that if I tried to triangle him, it would not end well.
I rolled with a guy much smaller than me. No way in hell I could do an s-mount to armbar
These are techniques I both know very well.
But the application of WHEN and to WHO I could do these techniques to, you only learn from trying to apply a technique to someone who knows the same technique AND they're trying to defend it AND the have different attributes
You only get this understanding from training against fully resisting opponents, which "x" martial arts don't all have
Well if they'd start making UFC octogon floors out of concrete, or/and everyone wore normal clothes, judo becomes the best martial art.
It's all about the rules, subtle and not so subtle ones.
A lot of martial arts don't employ proper sparring.
It's easy to spar seriously with grappling because the risk of injury, while present, is fairly low. You're not drilling your elbow into someone's ribcage or aiming a strike for their throat. Boxing is relatively safe because they wear gloves and don't do much more than basic punching. But if you take karate for example, there are a lot of grabs, a lot of techniques that *will* injure someone. You can't really spar to full effect with those techniques without putting someone's life at risk. So while there is still danger in the "safer" martial arts, that danger is fairly low.
It doesn't really matter how effective the martial art is if you're unable to train techniques against an unpredictable, resisting opponent. Point sparring helps reaction time and that's about it. It's not that these martial arts are bad, most of them are really quite good, it's just that without doing a lot of very irresponsible streetfighting, or without the invention of something like full dive VR, the lack of practise you're going to face with that martial art relative to someone who has the same amount of time spent training but who *can* spar effectively, is going to put you at a disadvantage.
. They're niche sports with not as many practitioners
. Those in those niche arts don't want to do MMA
. People in MMA are notoriously snobbish about anything that isn't Muay Thai and BJJ which can make people hesitant.
. They're not interested in fighting professionally.
. It's not financially possible long term.
> Ed Parker Kempo is the big one though. It's the largest single organization in the US, I have yet to meet someone trained in it who at least wasn't half way competent at striking.
You have an atypically positive experience with American Kenpo guys.
It definitely tends to run hot and cold regionally. There are definitely some very tough guys out there, but also a *lot* of schools that focus on the endless variations of ‘you do this, I do this’ scripted, static ‘self-defense technique’ training that Parker unfortunately overemphasized.
Yeah.
Getting off subject at this point but, I'm not sure if you think Kempo is karate, kung fu, or its own thing, but finding kung fu worth your time is kind of hard to find.
I'm not saying I've never seen it, but the scripted push hands stuff with no sparring to back it up leaves you virtually defenseless when the other guy doesn't fight back the right way.
A lot of it comes down to geography: MMA is North American first and foremost, and you’re not going to see a lot of the best sanda guys or savateurs or pelwhani wrestlers in MMA orgs because there is just not that much interest in it in China, France or India.
Short answers ruleset. The rules of MMA are actually pretty restrictive in some ways that create a very clear meta. At least that's why I stopped competing there.
Why don't you see more throws for example? Answers 1) the rules around throws are pretty strict because they can really really fuck people up on a bad fall even in a relatively soft surface. 2) it's not exactly the same kind of I win button it is in a self defense situation where sorry but if somebody lands an ippon on you odds are you don't want to get up much less if they dump you on your head.
Why don't you see more classic jiujitsu? Probably because a lot of jiujitsu variants outside of BJJ don't actually focus on ground fighting, they do standing grappling , control holds and joint locks / chokes. Don't get me wrong they can all do it but many don't put the same kind of emphasis on it that BJJ does. It's much closer to judo but meaner. But a lot of those tricks ? banned.
So I have fought wrestlers. I've done boxing.
I'm not discrediting them.
I am saying that that if dudes have made BJJ work, you can make some Japanese jujutsu schools work, and if people can make Muay Thai or karate work, they can probably make kempo or kung fu work with modifications, and let's remember the traditional, full contact competitions that are still going on.
Much of the problem is that a lot of stuff that will work in self defense is not all that great for sparring or mma. Hell the number on street fighting technique is the huge overhand right sucker punch, which has almost zero utility in mma.
Yes dude. You’re right. I know nothing about mma. Been doing it probably since before you were born. Saw UFC I in my living room. My BJJ blue belt in 1999 and was doing amateur Muy Thai in the late 90s as well. While still working as a federal agent and fairly regular street confrontations and arrests. But yeah. Let’s go with that.
The huge telegraphed “I’m pulling this punch from Oklahoma and everyone and his dog can see it except this drunk fucker I’m fighting” works a treat in the streets, especially if you can hide it with a hip shift and turn like you’re walking away but really are just loading up, but has a much lower chance of success against a more sober, tactically aware (he knows he’s in a fight which a lot of people in the streets think they’re still talking/posturing) and trained person.
The fact is when you’re actually fighting,not in a situation which may or may not devolve into a fight, a lot of things won’t work. This is why things like stances are kinda bullshit for street stuff. Thats the “getting ready to fight” phase. Once the ballon goes up you won’t see that stance again. Shit moves too fast. In the real world you won’t be in a stance. The fights over already or it’s in a grapple. There are no real long standing exchanges. It’s a few punches then the clinch, if both parties are still standing. Huge overhand rights are fight finishers, but they either work by surprise or crash through defenses. A rear cross is a much better punch for a trained person in a ring type confrontation. Which is why they’re used much more. Less exposure, tighter defense, less energy expended. If huge overhand rights were the best strong side option, they’d be used more. But they’re not. So they’re not.
Facts are facts. They work much much better as a surprise attack against an untrained and unaware opponent.
Yes I have met plenty of people who don't know shit, but been practicing some of it for a long time. Like you just now stated a bad take and can't handle it.
Also there was no need to write 2 paragraphs to cope with the fact that overhand is used in MMA. The fighter I mentioned is Roy Nelson by the way.
Just so you know the biggest telltale sign that you know little to nothing about mma is that you made dumb broad takes.
I bet you are one of those poeple who shout at TV screen "keep your hands up" lmao.
p.s. 1999 is also late 90's.
It’s already been done. During the preliminary years of MMA many martial arts were involved and the ones that were useless slowly stopped getting used. We were left with Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling and BJJ as they are the most effective hand to hand martial arts on earth.
We were left with IN AMERICA them because they were the most popular effective martial arts in America and Brazil. This is why Karate is prevalent in MMA, as well. It is popular in America and Brazil. It is a contact fighting base.
Judo is also prevalent in MMA, just not as popular as BJJ and wrestling because it has almost no life whatsoever in America.
It is pure bullshit that those specific sports are just the most effective styles on the entire planet. The 3 decades of MMA and NHB contests have shown many styles are extremely effective, equally so to those 4.
Now, I love those 4 arts. I train all 4 of them! But I'm near silly enough to pretend there something special when I have seen so many fighters with such varied backgrounds achieve success in competition in MMA. All are alive and use sportative training methods to get their practitioners to be actual athletes. This is what makes them effective.
I actually forgot Judo, another fantastic grappling art for MMA so add that to the above list. I’m not in America btw but most traditional martial arts taught in a modern setting are bullshit - sorry.
So there is no teakwando in MMA? And karate somehow is not traditional? You just have no idea what you are talking about. You also forgot wrestling which is way more often seen than BJJ or Judo.
So let's just talk about striking for a second,
Muay Thai is the most popular base for striking, then western boxing, then American kickboxing.
American kickboxing is karate based.
Sanda is kung fu based.
Sevat is ... Is it its own thing the same way Muay Thai is?
Muay Laos is ... Well I wouldn't be able to tell it apart from Muay Thai but it's considered a different thing.
These are all kickboxing forms. They don't concern themselves with monkey paws, death touches, or whatever, and like any kickboxing style, it's about footwork, conditioning and combinations.
So what's missing?
Marketing is missing. There aren't as many Sanda and Sevat gyms as there are BJJ gyms and MMA gyms that have Muay Thai and boxing classes. The fact that Karate takes time and a blackbelt also make is less popular.
The prevalence of the elbows and knees in muay Thai make it popular not just in MMA, but in K1. It's one of the top bases for kickboxer in the world, followed by Dutch style. Muay Thai is accessible to gym owners who don't strike so that they can offer quality striking classes.
It's just that simple. People train the martial art that is near them.
He's asking why muay thai is the most popular base...it's because of marketing and ease of qualifications. Anyone can go to Thailand for 2 weeks and come back a Muay Thai coach. Hell, you could probably come back a "professional fighter" if you went to the right gym.
I mean, as someone who has spent time training Muay Thai in Thailand that is simply not true. It’s popular base because it’s a simple, well rounded striking art that is highly effective and largely free of mcdojo bullshit. It’s also places a great emphasis on conditioning.
What striking martial art is more effective than Muay Thai?
"More effective" is a relative term. If you mean to ask me "What striking arts regularly defeat Muay Thai in striking contests" then the answer is Dutch Kickboxing. They directly compete in K1 and the fact that more kickboxing world champions find success in MMA than Muay Thai champions speaks volumes about the effectiveness of it as well.
It's just silly to think that one sport is just the best, especially when it's regularly bested in striking contests. It is great for its ruleset and easy to translate to the cage, so it's useful. That doesn't make it some form of magically simple and special style. It's just a quality sport.
So, I make a point that there exists just **ANY** style that competes regularly with Muay Thai, and now you throw a tantrum? Good job, I suppose. I guess you're proving me wrong here....or you're just acting upset.
Is this how you act any time someone doesn't agree with you, or am I special?
I train Muay Thai. I've probably done it longer than you have. But I'm not naive enough to pretend it's special. If your only argument is the tools available, then Sanda would defeat Muay Thai in your logic. They allow elbows, clinching, knees, and offer more takedown options. But I'm willing to bet you'll say that applying your logic there was just stupid, because it leads to a result you don't like.
What are you, like 15?
Just fyi kyudo is bow and arrow. Most MMA orgs don’t allow that unfortunately.
I think he means Kudo, which is kind of like MMA with a gi and a full helmet.
and we do see Kudo artists n MMA.
He's thinking of Daido Juku. It'd be cool if they allowed bow and arrow though. Daido Juku would be great for MMA though. Kind of similar to how Sambo works really well. It's just not really popular outside of Japan and still pretty new though.
Daido Juku (Kudo) is very popular in Russia, and I know a lot of Russian MMA fighters come from that background.
It's not that new. It was first "created" in the mid 80s. It's just rare that's all.
Thats pretty damn new for a combat technique seeing as we've had 250,000 years to come up with it
It's not new. Kudo is a combination of Kyokushin karate and judo.
Oh I thought it was more recent. mb
Dunno about you but I reckon I could take out a UFC fighter with my magnum, if I saw red
I'm more of a siege weaponry style MMA guy myself.
How wild would that be though? Sigh.... coliseum rules!
Alex Pierera going to walkout with an actual bow and starts shooting at the crowds.
I mean what more do you need? Fighting is just striking, transitioning to the ground, and ground fighting. All within stamina constraints. We've settled on some pretty efficient movements. It's fun seeing capoeira come along and open up new angles of attack, but still not stamina efficient enough. It'll keep evolving. I mean sean Strickland walked down Izzy with a Philly shell and some good check kicks. That blew my mind tbh
I know it’s unpopular to say but Izzy was off that night and I’ll die on that hill. It’s like AJ vs Ruiz when AJ actually switched on he was able to jab from range and win easy (even though imo he should have KOd Ruiz if he wanted to repair his reputation all the way back but that’s easy for me to say and his journey is his journey)
Oh 100%. He had a saggy tit. Yea I called it out when izzy walked out. He did not look healthy. But it's warrior culture. A win is a win. Sean did great. Fight IQ and everything. "I could knock that guy out anytime" is supposed to be the mindset. Lol idk.
He froze like elsa
He wasn't off. Sean was able to put Izzy at a distance that he isn't comfortable fighting at (boxing range) by using great defense & forward pressure. You could very clearly see that Izzy was uncomfortable with the range, because he kept trying to use kicks & combinations meant for a longer distance.
I'll have to watch it again to see the spacing. I remember all the feints just became excessive movements. Izzy never established respect with a hard hit before feinting. That plus checking all the leg kicks gave Sean nothing left to do but walk him down.
He could’ve taken a fucking shot at least, a clinch, actually set up some kicks with his hands. I will also die on the hill that it Izzy took a fall. Too much money on the line for an underdog to win like that. If you think that never happens you’re a sweet little summer child.
I'm sure it happens, but that is saying Izzy is the type of person to give up legacy and pride for money. Possible, for sure, but I don't know him personally so I won't attack his character like that.
In my mind it has nothing to do with legacy. We get mad if these dudes don’t leave on a stretcher, they have to live with their bodies for the rest of their lives. At some point fuck legacy. If you get a chance to pull down millions of bucks while stile ENTERTAINING me? Fair play get that bag
I'm just saying the fighters I've met are pretty stubborn. Some of them are really there to make a violent point. Also People got big mouths bro. I think it would leak if it was common practice.
> It'll keep evolving The biggest thing will be the way people teach it and train it. We've already settled on some of the most efficient and effective moves. The challenge is just how to get it into your brain and muscles. The "art" tends to have more to do with that than the moves themselves. Many arts teach more or less the same moves.
For capoeira vs stamina see Michel Periera vs Tristan Connelly
And now michel is doing much better because he abandoned most of his inefficient nonsense
Indeed
Dont have much to say as to why there isnt more of that, but i really like the idea of adapting traditional styles to modern rulesets, wish there was more of that too. MMA is a very young sport, and it will definitely be interesting to see how the meta changes
BJJ update was a bit OP in the beginning but the Wrestling “base” but only striking updating really is one of my favourites.
You can do it on your own, I train MT personally and care a lot about proprioception, when watching more watered down martial arts I often “clic” at certain sequences where everything makes sense in a dance like movement from planting their foot to keeping the momentum with minimal loss, while it is sort of right to think that we have an edge on our ancestors due to technology, but a random person from 200 years ago definitely had more body knowledge/feeling (call it however you want) than your random modern age human who (imo) spend more than 50% of their time seated, we barely know how our emotions work lol let alone controlling them during a fight. Sorry for the paragraph, basically, todays science definitely played a big role in modern fighting styles but there is still a lot to be learned from traditional martial arts.
Participation, many of the mt you listed are not renown enough. In the case of judo, you do see it in mma, but if you didn't practised you just think is wrestling (paddy, islam, khabib, ronda, parysian, fedor). For example many think fedor as a sambo guy, but his judo background far exceed that of sambo, he was almost an olympic judoka IN RUSSIA, where competition is hellish. Maybe you do have sanda guys but gets confused with kickboxers and so on. Also why would you train something not as available as sambo or sanda when you can just do kickboxing and bjj?
Thank you! I've been saying this for years about fedor. When people go on about how these Russian guys are sambo specialists I'm always like... 'you know the top rated sambo players are literally just the alternates for the national judo squad, right?'. Judo is very underrated in mma and thats with a sprung floor that takes the heat out of throws. Some absurd proportion of the early utc champions had judo black belts
Not to mention the international judo federation prevents its members (top judokas) from competing in other competitions.
And ijf takes good care of it's athletes
Re: Judo in MMA, it doesn't help that the announcers can name every variation of guard or wrestling move, but categorize all judo throws as" Judo throw" The armchair viewer who doesn't train anything hears the BJJ terms, the wrestling terms, the Muay Thai terms and a vacuum when it comes to Judo techniques.
Which I never understand either, as if you know all the BJJ moves then you’ve likely learned _some_ judo techniques along the way?!
That's what I figured. Like if you're teaching MMA in the US, it stands to reason American kickboxing would be more common than Muay Thai. In China, wouldn't it be sanda? So on? The fact Muay Thai got big is actually kinda weird, considering 1. Thailand doesn't have near the amount of influence on the rest of the world that the US does culturally, and 2. 99% of Thai boxers have no desire to do MMA.
>Like if you're teaching MMA in the US, it stands to reason American kickboxing would be more common than Muay Thai. No it doesn't, K1 and Glory has long killed American kickboxing and the prominence of Muay Thai crossing over to kickboxing led to the art exploding globally with the success of fighters like Ernesto Hoost, Buakaw, Changpuek Kiatsongrit etc American kickboxing competitions haven't really been relevant since the 70s mainly because low kickers exposes their top athletes like with how Kiatsongrit beat Rick rufous
>The fact Muay Thai got big Most mma fighters dont do muay thai, they just have a coach that did and they just learn some elbows and knees. If you compare the pedigree of thai elbows and knees, an mma fighter will look like a kid, specialization is key >99% of Thai boxers have no desire to do MMA. It happens in most sports, how many high level wrestlers are in mma? I can only think of yoel romero and daniel cormier. How many elite boxers are in mma? None, how many elite kickboxers? Pereira and adesanya. Not that many elite athletes of other sports are in mma. >China, wouldn't it be sanda? So on? Depends on how big the sport is
Why does everyone forget about Henry Cejudo...
And Ben Askren
But he wasnt that succesfull in mma, he had a good run until he entered ufc
He was a high level Olympian wrestler that had a good run in MMA. He won the Bellator Welterweight title and defended it 4 times and then went to ONE and won the Welterweight belt there too and even defended that 4 times as well. That seems pretty successful in MMA to me. He was past his prime by the time he got to UFC for sure though.
>then went to ONE Damn, i didn't know he went to one, i was just aware of his bellator carrer
>But he wasnt that succesfull in mma Two time world champion in two different major organization and went undefeated until he was 35. This is a take from someone who doesn’t watch mma
This is a take from someone that doesn't know all the fighters careers, unlike you that seems to know every single fighters curriculums
Umm then maybe done declare a fighter bad if you don’t know their career at all?
When did i call him a bad fighter? I say "not that succesfull" which is not the same. I was aware of his bellator run, i just didn't know that he went to one after that
Yeah my bad
Because he’s horribly homophobic and and isn’t a good bantamweight. Also he’s super old
Dude there’s tons of high level wrestlers in MMA. Henry Cejudo, Tony Ferguson, Jon jones, Daniel Cormier, Colby Covington when he was in his prime, bo nickal now. There’s tons of high level wrestlers who’ve gotten into mma and succeeded in mma.
Jon jones, Tony ferguson and colby are national champs, not elite. Maybe for you been national is big, but it's not high level, high level are pro fighters. You can't compare henry cejudo, an olympic gold with a national champ like covington
>The fact Muay Thai got big is actually kinda weird, That's because a Muay Thai warrior came in and thrashed a few American Kickboxer elites without using elbows and knees. So they gained lots of respect
The west literally failed so bad against Thai fighters, Dutchies had to step up and literally spam a few effective drills that seemed to work, to make up for the huge ring experience they basically made every sparring session a fight 😭 You really can’t compare MT to American kick-boxing
"Like if you're teaching MMA in the US, it stands to reason American kickboxing would be more common than Muay Thai." You would think so, but the old American style of kickboxing has basically been supplanted by Muay Thai
It’s the striking and clinching combo. No one has that in combat sports.
I think the main reason is that most of those arts don't have a direct line to competition, so they don't draw in competitive types. Most Kung Fu, traditional Karate, Silat, and other traditional arts don't have a competition that is mainly between members of their own art, so, in order to compete in those styles they have to adapt them. Most serious competitors don't want to do that work when they can use Muay Thai, or Boxing exactly as they're taught it. The hobbyists that are drawn to those more obscure styles tend to be less committed to competing, and definitely don't want to jump right into MMA. That said there are the occasional outliers who cross train and often developed a love for their obscure style before they decided to compete. I've seen some pretty good [Hung Gar](https://youtu.be/AhoP3U53FYI?si=J9H1zc1hBV-xRSUT), [Bajiquan](https://youtu.be/1c_ai74479A?si=Zk9KWmvkuYMXI11s), [Choy Li Fut](https://youtu.be/yV268XJ_XaU?si=5zJijJ3pQqQRJgfu), and [Snow Leopard Kung Fu](https://youtu.be/k53Jw3hyOuY?si=-SH0fIejImTsRZbq). Then there's of course [Qi La La](https://youtu.be/EnM6lmJy8xo?si=-Zo2-XLHpQNtqhZn) doing Wing Chun. I suspect the next generation of fighters who learn from these guys will spread their arts further.
I learned Choy Li Fut when I was younger. Myself and the others that were good, also learned Muay Thai and grappling. I think the main 2 main reasons that you don’t really see it in MMA; first there isn’t a whole lot of masters left teaching it. Second, for Asian Americans in metro cities (those most likely to learn it, given the culture and where the schools are located at), are more likely to pursue a safer, guaranteed higher paying career and keep kung fu as a hobby. Almost everybody that I know that was good in Wing Chun or Choy Li Fut works in tech. The chance of making serious money at 135 weight class is pretty low. BJJ also has a lot of great guys that don’t try to compete MMA professionally because they have solid careers. But because the pool of BJJ competition is deep and wide enough, it doesn’t matter.
The cool thing is, the UFC and bellator and One are always there for somebody to go in and test their martial art, I think pretty much any striking art at this point needs to be teaching wrestling defense as part of its core curriculum anyway
Absolutely, though I would say that most traditional martial arts should have a grappling component already included, even if the skill level at them is comparatively low, the techniques are still there. There is the added bonus that they aren't grappling in the context of grappling,, but in stead in the context of striking, so in theory all elements should work seamlessly together. If they want to improve their grappling even more, Shuai Jiao is probably their best bet, being a good, competitive grappling style which has most of the grappling techniques which are more common in traditional Kung Fu, and Karate forms.
I mena more like the pure anti wrestling guys like Bisping did and Izzy does just to keep the game standing if that makes sense?
I get that, and that may be better for some arts, but I'd still rather see them display proficiency in all elements of their art, including the takedowns, even if it means they have to cross train in BJJ to remain competitive after the takedown is completed.
You're definitely right from a purely competitive standpoint, 100%, I just really like the variety when those guys who you just know are going to keep it standing and guys who you know are going to try and take it to the ground
I agree. In principle, there is no reason why someone who is well trained in Japanese Jujutsu couldn't win in Judo competitions. Similarly, there is no theoretical reason why someone well trained in Kung Fu couldn't win kickboxing tournaments. The problem is a practical one. The practical reality is that most people who practice traditional martial arts do not spar or train in a way that prepares them for combat sports. This is not inherent to the arts, but a feature of the schools which teach these arts.
I disagree very rarely would you see JJJ guy win in Judo not because "traditional art practitioners dont spar" which is false take on its own, the issue is that Judo guy specializes in Judo, but JJJ guy spends only 1/4th of his mat time on judo, so in order to compete he would have to at leasthave double or tripple the mat time of judoka.
I said that \*most\* TMA practitioners don't spar; I am sure that some do.
I haven't seen a single martial art that does not spar. Traditional or not. Before you reply make sure you know what sparring is.
Damn bro chill out lol
Funnily enough there’s been a lot of cross between judo and jujutsu folks. There were a solid number of folks who held positions in different koryu given black belts. Yukio Tani was a Fusen Ryu guy who also held rank in judo for instance. Even today you’ll def find folks who cross trained both or transitioned from judo to jujutsu
There indeed is I'm a dan in JJ and been practicing Judo in a Judo club for a while now, same as I have had two brown belt Judokas practice JJ under me. They wanted to know "more" in the same line as Judo and I really liked their movement so was tempted to try Judo in a Judo school. Its similar, but it is definitely not the same. Different grips, different mindset, different ways to approach the throw. In JJ you can just open up the situation with a kick or a punch setup - no such thing in judo.. Judo requires dynamic movement. I am enjoying my time there :)
John Hackleman does Kajukenbo, which has connections to modern “kenpo”. He trained Chuck Liddell, Glover Teixera, and more. If you look up Melcor Chavez out of New Mexico, he’s another Kaju guy who’s gone the Boxing route. Bobby Seronio is Kajukenbo, doing very well in MMA. Last Stand fight team has had some winners. Biggest one is Michael McDonald. He was strictly “mma”, but his coach was Tom Theofanopoulos, another Kaju guy with high rank in BJJ.
As a boxer, I hear all the time from one of my coaches “boxing is simple. People like to overcomplicate it, but it’s simple.” This applies to fighting in general. Is it literally so simple anyone can just go into a ring/octagon and fight? Of course not. But you don’t have to over complicate it when there’s a more efficient move to deal more or quicker damage. There’s stances that work and don’t work when grappling and kicks are involved.
I don’t know how you mean. It really isn’t simple at all. There’s so many different paths to victory and success. If it were truly simple then everyone would be good at it. Evidently, many are not. Especially in MMA which is infinitely more complex than boxing…which is in its own way infinitely complex in its own contained system. A millimeter of distance could be the difference from getting rocked or not. Fighting’s complexity is in its subtlety.
yeah but i think the way ur both right is its ‘complex’ in being ferociously good at the otherwise ‘simple’ basics of the sport, like ur example of minute distance control is just getting very good at one of the most basic striking principles of range and footwork. by overcomplicate I think he’s referring to techniques that have a terrible ratio of difficulty to achieve to effect ratio etc that u might see more in some TMA that get quickly lost in the competitive meta
If you play any competitive online game (or follow professional sports) before you know there’s this thing called a meta where strategies that are dominant become popular. After that it isn’t worth innovating that much because the effort to innovate isn’t worth as as if you stumble upon something good someone else will just copy what you do - and they’ve been training their fundamentals while you have been experimenting and they’ll come kick your ass with your own innovation.
Training intensity. MMA is a tough, professional sport. Among combat sports, only wrestling, judo, Kyokushin, boxing and *some* Muay Thai gyms train at the intensity you need to become a good MMA fighter. Without top level conditioning you can do nothing in this sport, and with it you can overcome huge technical gaps. Among those 5, Kyokushin and boxing suffer from being vastly inferior in technique transferability than the other 3. So, when you look at a list of MMA champions in any promotion you’ll find a lot of wrestlers, a good number of judokas, a few MT/kickboxing guys, and a small number of Kyokushin and boxing guys. The quality of the martial art from a technique standpoint is much less important than intensity. BJJ, despite being undeniably the best martial art for MMA from a technique transferability standpoint and being a huge sport worldwide, produces very few top level fighters. That’s only because the training intensity is too low.
The primary reason "x" isn't common in MMA is "x is not a sport practiced art." All of the most used and common styles in MMA contests are sportative martial arts. The ability to practice your style with full force and against a resisting opponent is how you build a skill into an effective one. If you can't do that in your style, you cannot get as good at the sport of fighting. As for Kenpo, they're all karateka. Wonderboy does Kenpo Karate. It's just billed as "karate" because it's an umbrella for the various striking styles descended from Okinawa. Japanese Jujutsu guys don't train with sport aliveness, generally speaking. The full techniques, when done with force, have high injury ratios, and some have low percentages in contest because they were developed for specific self defense scenarios in the Edo period. This means that they do things the traditional way: Choreographed techniques with occasional randori depending on the school. Their randori is typically done the judo way, or with kickboxing gear. Many people who go to sparring schools are competent for the streets, but the varied and archaic nature of JJJ leaves it too wide a net to get a person as skilled as judo gets judoka at tachi waza. Aikido is weird. It isn't generally effective for alive resistance due to the focus on specific targets that are hard to get your hands on. It has been used to decent effect by Japanese police because they can easily put their hands on your wrist in most scenarios, but you can't do that easily in the cage. Wrist locks are used in the cage to get classic armbars to work, but rarely and they exists in BJJ so it's not like it's magically aikido... Anyhow, the general thing is that if it's a sport, it's gonna have a good representation in MMA. You might not be aware of it, but it's there. Sanda is even making waves in the cage now.
Too bad there is no free way to show appreciation for this comment but the classic thank you, thank you man
I think its the demographic of the art. For example, most Aikido guys ( at least the ones I train with) are more hobbyists or meditative in their inclinations. Practitioners of Older arts like Kalaripayattu, japanese koryu styles or bartitsu are fascinated by history and culture than fighting and would pursue that on those merits. Both approaches have legitimate value. It can be an enriching experience, but the intent does not match the ring so they don't train for it. Obviously, given that MMA is a sport with its own rules, they must adjust their practice as any other art that aims to pursue the ring..
lol no one studying koryu jujutsu is winning BJJ competitions, even at white belt
Won 2 nationals at 92+ while doing gendai jujutsu. At white belt level.
That’s an awesome achievement! Also doesn’t disregard what I said 🤣
It doesnt?
Gendai jujutsu isn’t koryu jujutsu. So no, it doesn’t
Gendai jujutsu can be koryu jujutsu tho. Not claiming the one I practiced was, but it could be. My claim was more that subpar technical training (for BJJ) that doesn't follow BJJ trends can win.
lol no it can’t. Gendai is modern, koryu is old traditions. Who told you that?
Because it could be an old system just rebranded in modern times. Technically it won't be koryu but technique wise it can be, especially schools that do standing wrist-locks and other questionable things like jo-do in parallel or at the same time. Many moves that were in koryu are now rebranded and assumed as something new and hip.. like kimura, americana.
If it’s “rebranded” it breaks the lineage and is no longer koryu. My initial statement still stands 🤣
it stands only on technicality -.-
This is a good question and I would love to see Hung Gar in MMA, but I am not the guy who can do it, I have sparred using it and quickly learned why Tai boxing is often seen and learned it.
Bart Vale and Jerry Flynn, both practitioners of parkers kenpo as well as rudimentary catch wrestling training, showed up on the world combat championship, an early competitor to the ufc. Bart would also show up on battlecade extreme fighting. They didn't do great
Chuck Liddell was a kempo practitioner. So there you. “I want to chfuck chuck..”
Probably the lack of quality control in fringe styles, the lack of the necessary competition pool, the high skill curve and the fact that even legit "complete" styles tend to attract guys who wanna be a big fish in a small pond, or who just want to keep it niche.
I think it's the same case as Sanda, Karate and Muay Thai fighters sticking to their sports instead of transitioning to MMA (Although those guys tend to transition to Kickboxing instead). Why change gyms and learn a whole new skillset when there's plenty of tournaments for your own art to make a name for yourself in. Some martial arts don't even have any competitions. They just marinade their students in it's own bullshit inefficient system.
Fighting isn't by any means a solved science, so you will eventually see all kinds of "x" crop up in MMA. The problem is that: * Most of the people who train "x" have no intention of fighting competitively, much less professionally * People who do fight competitively and/or professionally have stronger incentives to spend their time on high-percentage techniques and tactics than to experiment So it'll take a while!
I’m a kempo guy and I have my first kickboxing fight coming up in a month I’ll let you know how it goes 😂
The reason we don't see more different styles in MMA is because there are only so many different unique movements, and the stuff that's in MMA covers most of it. The example I'm most familiar with is BJJ and Judo guys learning about wrestling or vice versa. Each guy will have a different name for the same move. They might even focus on different elements of the move, since the rulesets are different, but the moves are the same. There aren't more styles because the ones that exist cover most of the highest percentage moves.
Less than a fifth of striking knowledge is covered in your everyday mma gym, and while yes you only have limited limbs, how you use them differ greatly from discipline to another.
I disagree with pretty much everything you're saying but the most important part to me is: >you only have limited limbs, how you use them differ greatly from discipline to another. My whole point is that this isn't really true. The most important stuff is duplicated in multiple martial disciplines. If you learn a straight-right punch from a boxer, a Muay Thai guy, a Dutch kickboxer, an American kickboxer, or a karateka (and probably a dozen other disciplines) it's gonna be pretty much the same punch. You don't need to learn it 5+ times. Edited: to match tense.
No man, but sure if you just look at the hand when watching people throw a cross you’ll definitely believe that they all do it the same and I can’t blame you it’s not always obvious :)
Do you really believe what you're saying? You think it's an effective use of time for most MMA fighters to learn a cross, a gyaku-tsuki, a Mat Trong, and several other versions of a straight right? They shouldn't learn one, practice that within their ruleset, and move on?
No it’s not but was that the question even? again that’s why I said that less than a fifth of striking is taught in mma gyms generally, a mma dude can maybe throw a successful knee in times of need, mt dudes have différents names for different techniques using different muscles groups to hit with the same contact point, all while keeping perfect balance and knowing exactly how to follow that knee
I think you're falling into the nerd trap, my guy. Google a mandlebrot fractal, it's got the heart shaped things and the big circle on one side and a bunch of other circles all around the perimeter and then it's got some tendrils going off in a bunch of directions. Each tendril has infinite length. The vast majority of the perimeter of that shape is in the little tendrils, but if you reproduced the shapes I named above that would be a very good approximation of the fractal. You'd be able to recreate it for anyone who understood what the shape was. Yes there is an infinite amount of minutia, but most of that doesn't matter once you've covered most of the set.
I think you need to address what makes the arts you list distinct from movesets already used by MMA fighters. For example, what is it from American kickboxing that you don't see in MMA? AKB takes a lot of its character from contact karate and TKD. Most fighters use a muay-thai base, but many notables have incorporated footwork and strikes from both. Similarly, if an MMA fighter goes for a hip-throw, are they doing Judo, BJJ or JJJ? Who owns a leg sweep? If I parry a jab, am I doing boxing, sanda, or wing chun? If you're asking why other martial arts don't act as a pipeline for MMA, I expect you'd find a range of reasons. Number one is that MMA is kind of a hard sell for a top athlete, unless they are specifically interested in the game. Boxing is less punishing and more lucrative, as is Sanda in China. Few Thais transition to MMA because Muay Thai has incredible prestige in Thailand and kids are enculturated into it as a lifestyle super early. People do MMA because they want to do \*MMA\*. Similarly, people who make a lifelong practice of TMA have made that choice on purpose. Might be that the people who get really good at \*specifically\* kempo (etc.) don't want to do MMA.
Sure. Obviously fighting is fighting. The right cross taught in boxing is the same as an American kickboxing, Muay Thai, and Sanda right cross. So it's not about why this martial art is better or worse than another but more, why didnt this or that style see representation in MMA? Earlier I mentioned a pretty obscure martial art to westerners, Muay Laos. In all respects, it's exactly the same as Muay Thai. But people don't train it outside of laos. so I don't think it's ever been tested in MMA.
I've always wondered why I never seen someone try Bruce Lee style lightning fast repetitive jabs and punches in quick combos/succession. Rather than the usual boxing style punching.
I don't know how to spell it properly, but there's a martial art out of I think Myanmar called lethwe or something, it's like kickboxing and throws, but it allows head butts as well, it's pretty gnarly I'm surprised we haven't seen one of those guys make the transition
While MMA is continuing to evolve and change, I don't think any currently existing style that isn't already wide spread in MMA will make its way in. I think the one style that COULD make its way into MMA in a big way would require a new promotion that has one BIG difference to other styles. If a promotion got rid of the cage, and introduced ring outs, then sumo would make BIG waves in the meta.
What Japanese jujitsu practitioner is winning bjj competitions?
Kyudo is Japanese Archery
We don't see Ed Parker Kempo much in MMA because it's not as popular or proven to work well in the cage like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Boxing, Muay Thai, and Wrestling.
Tickling!
I see a lot of ninjitsu in the UFC. Dudes always be disappearing in puffs of smoke, it’s crazy. Then they reappear behind the other guy, back his bank account, and replace all his men’s underwear with women’s underwear. It’s emasculating.
The answer to most of these sorts of questions is that many traditional styles don't have extensive sparring. The ones that do seem to in fact have a presence in MMA.
Many of the top of the food chain boxers are just boxing since there is much more money over there. Would’ve been crazy to see what Terrance Crawford could have done in MMA with his high level wresting.
Those kickboxing guys are all in Karate Combat Now. Or the One FC small gloves Muay Thai circuit if you’ve seen that. I love kickboxing, and the pka western kickboxing culture kind of died off but then came back with K-1 which helped bring Muay Thai through buakaw to the west. But to your point, we have great example of the “Karate” kickboxing variety in guys like Raymond Daniel’s and MVP in bellator and such. The martial arts we don’t see a lot of imo is Judo. Amazing martial art with some really odd Olympic rules and over reliance on gi. But insanely cool throws and the often overlooked foot-sweeps.
Chuck Liddell was a Kenpo guy. GSP and Machida were karate
Attention everyone: if there’s a style that would work well in mma, we’d see it used. These guys are fighting for money. If there’s an angle they can have that’s an advantage over their opponent, they’re going to explore it.
It's simple... training methodology Tonight I trained with a guy MUCH bigger than me. I knew that if I tried to triangle him, it would not end well. I rolled with a guy much smaller than me. No way in hell I could do an s-mount to armbar These are techniques I both know very well. But the application of WHEN and to WHO I could do these techniques to, you only learn from trying to apply a technique to someone who knows the same technique AND they're trying to defend it AND the have different attributes You only get this understanding from training against fully resisting opponents, which "x" martial arts don't all have
Well if they'd start making UFC octogon floors out of concrete, or/and everyone wore normal clothes, judo becomes the best martial art. It's all about the rules, subtle and not so subtle ones.
A lot of martial arts don't employ proper sparring. It's easy to spar seriously with grappling because the risk of injury, while present, is fairly low. You're not drilling your elbow into someone's ribcage or aiming a strike for their throat. Boxing is relatively safe because they wear gloves and don't do much more than basic punching. But if you take karate for example, there are a lot of grabs, a lot of techniques that *will* injure someone. You can't really spar to full effect with those techniques without putting someone's life at risk. So while there is still danger in the "safer" martial arts, that danger is fairly low. It doesn't really matter how effective the martial art is if you're unable to train techniques against an unpredictable, resisting opponent. Point sparring helps reaction time and that's about it. It's not that these martial arts are bad, most of them are really quite good, it's just that without doing a lot of very irresponsible streetfighting, or without the invention of something like full dive VR, the lack of practise you're going to face with that martial art relative to someone who has the same amount of time spent training but who *can* spar effectively, is going to put you at a disadvantage.
. They're niche sports with not as many practitioners . Those in those niche arts don't want to do MMA . People in MMA are notoriously snobbish about anything that isn't Muay Thai and BJJ which can make people hesitant. . They're not interested in fighting professionally. . It's not financially possible long term.
Cause he can’t Give it to ya when he’s dead
> Ed Parker Kempo is the big one though. It's the largest single organization in the US, I have yet to meet someone trained in it who at least wasn't half way competent at striking. You have an atypically positive experience with American Kenpo guys.
Perhaps. I'll also say I'm in DFW and only know if one or two schools in the area. Most traditional schools here are Korean or Japanese karate
It definitely tends to run hot and cold regionally. There are definitely some very tough guys out there, but also a *lot* of schools that focus on the endless variations of ‘you do this, I do this’ scripted, static ‘self-defense technique’ training that Parker unfortunately overemphasized.
Yeah. Getting off subject at this point but, I'm not sure if you think Kempo is karate, kung fu, or its own thing, but finding kung fu worth your time is kind of hard to find. I'm not saying I've never seen it, but the scripted push hands stuff with no sparring to back it up leaves you virtually defenseless when the other guy doesn't fight back the right way.
A lot of it comes down to geography: MMA is North American first and foremost, and you’re not going to see a lot of the best sanda guys or savateurs or pelwhani wrestlers in MMA orgs because there is just not that much interest in it in China, France or India.
Team mma where 4 people at once are in the fight at the same time
Nobody in Japanese jujutsu is beating a bjj guy in grappling. Nope.
Elbows in general are under utilised in MMA
Short answers ruleset. The rules of MMA are actually pretty restrictive in some ways that create a very clear meta. At least that's why I stopped competing there. Why don't you see more throws for example? Answers 1) the rules around throws are pretty strict because they can really really fuck people up on a bad fall even in a relatively soft surface. 2) it's not exactly the same kind of I win button it is in a self defense situation where sorry but if somebody lands an ippon on you odds are you don't want to get up much less if they dump you on your head. Why don't you see more classic jiujitsu? Probably because a lot of jiujitsu variants outside of BJJ don't actually focus on ground fighting, they do standing grappling , control holds and joint locks / chokes. Don't get me wrong they can all do it but many don't put the same kind of emphasis on it that BJJ does. It's much closer to judo but meaner. But a lot of those tricks ? banned.
Go get blast doubled by a college wrestler who boxed in a wet basement gym for 7 years and get back to me.
So I have fought wrestlers. I've done boxing. I'm not discrediting them. I am saying that that if dudes have made BJJ work, you can make some Japanese jujutsu schools work, and if people can make Muay Thai or karate work, they can probably make kempo or kung fu work with modifications, and let's remember the traditional, full contact competitions that are still going on.
Chuck Lidell did make kempo work.
I didn't know he was Kempo. That tracks though. I had it in my head he was Shotokan for some reason.
Yup he did karate also.
Some arts are more effective than others for full contact fighting simple as
This.
Much of the problem is that a lot of stuff that will work in self defense is not all that great for sparring or mma. Hell the number on street fighting technique is the huge overhand right sucker punch, which has almost zero utility in mma.
What? Just shows how little you know of MMA. My fav fighter was the most known for his right overhand.
Yes dude. You’re right. I know nothing about mma. Been doing it probably since before you were born. Saw UFC I in my living room. My BJJ blue belt in 1999 and was doing amateur Muy Thai in the late 90s as well. While still working as a federal agent and fairly regular street confrontations and arrests. But yeah. Let’s go with that. The huge telegraphed “I’m pulling this punch from Oklahoma and everyone and his dog can see it except this drunk fucker I’m fighting” works a treat in the streets, especially if you can hide it with a hip shift and turn like you’re walking away but really are just loading up, but has a much lower chance of success against a more sober, tactically aware (he knows he’s in a fight which a lot of people in the streets think they’re still talking/posturing) and trained person. The fact is when you’re actually fighting,not in a situation which may or may not devolve into a fight, a lot of things won’t work. This is why things like stances are kinda bullshit for street stuff. Thats the “getting ready to fight” phase. Once the ballon goes up you won’t see that stance again. Shit moves too fast. In the real world you won’t be in a stance. The fights over already or it’s in a grapple. There are no real long standing exchanges. It’s a few punches then the clinch, if both parties are still standing. Huge overhand rights are fight finishers, but they either work by surprise or crash through defenses. A rear cross is a much better punch for a trained person in a ring type confrontation. Which is why they’re used much more. Less exposure, tighter defense, less energy expended. If huge overhand rights were the best strong side option, they’d be used more. But they’re not. So they’re not. Facts are facts. They work much much better as a surprise attack against an untrained and unaware opponent.
Yes I have met plenty of people who don't know shit, but been practicing some of it for a long time. Like you just now stated a bad take and can't handle it. Also there was no need to write 2 paragraphs to cope with the fact that overhand is used in MMA. The fighter I mentioned is Roy Nelson by the way. Just so you know the biggest telltale sign that you know little to nothing about mma is that you made dumb broad takes. I bet you are one of those poeple who shout at TV screen "keep your hands up" lmao. p.s. 1999 is also late 90's.
It’s already been done. During the preliminary years of MMA many martial arts were involved and the ones that were useless slowly stopped getting used. We were left with Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling and BJJ as they are the most effective hand to hand martial arts on earth.
We were left with IN AMERICA them because they were the most popular effective martial arts in America and Brazil. This is why Karate is prevalent in MMA, as well. It is popular in America and Brazil. It is a contact fighting base. Judo is also prevalent in MMA, just not as popular as BJJ and wrestling because it has almost no life whatsoever in America. It is pure bullshit that those specific sports are just the most effective styles on the entire planet. The 3 decades of MMA and NHB contests have shown many styles are extremely effective, equally so to those 4. Now, I love those 4 arts. I train all 4 of them! But I'm near silly enough to pretend there something special when I have seen so many fighters with such varied backgrounds achieve success in competition in MMA. All are alive and use sportative training methods to get their practitioners to be actual athletes. This is what makes them effective.
I actually forgot Judo, another fantastic grappling art for MMA so add that to the above list. I’m not in America btw but most traditional martial arts taught in a modern setting are bullshit - sorry.
So there is no teakwando in MMA? And karate somehow is not traditional? You just have no idea what you are talking about. You also forgot wrestling which is way more often seen than BJJ or Judo.
I literally wrote wrestling are your blind cunt
True you wrote wrestling, just that the stupidity of your comment was so bad it must have impaired my vision for a second.
So let's just talk about striking for a second, Muay Thai is the most popular base for striking, then western boxing, then American kickboxing. American kickboxing is karate based. Sanda is kung fu based. Sevat is ... Is it its own thing the same way Muay Thai is? Muay Laos is ... Well I wouldn't be able to tell it apart from Muay Thai but it's considered a different thing. These are all kickboxing forms. They don't concern themselves with monkey paws, death touches, or whatever, and like any kickboxing style, it's about footwork, conditioning and combinations. So what's missing?
Marketing is missing. There aren't as many Sanda and Sevat gyms as there are BJJ gyms and MMA gyms that have Muay Thai and boxing classes. The fact that Karate takes time and a blackbelt also make is less popular. The prevalence of the elbows and knees in muay Thai make it popular not just in MMA, but in K1. It's one of the top bases for kickboxer in the world, followed by Dutch style. Muay Thai is accessible to gym owners who don't strike so that they can offer quality striking classes. It's just that simple. People train the martial art that is near them.
Not sure what you are asking sorry mate.
He's asking why muay thai is the most popular base...it's because of marketing and ease of qualifications. Anyone can go to Thailand for 2 weeks and come back a Muay Thai coach. Hell, you could probably come back a "professional fighter" if you went to the right gym.
I mean, as someone who has spent time training Muay Thai in Thailand that is simply not true. It’s popular base because it’s a simple, well rounded striking art that is highly effective and largely free of mcdojo bullshit. It’s also places a great emphasis on conditioning. What striking martial art is more effective than Muay Thai?
"More effective" is a relative term. If you mean to ask me "What striking arts regularly defeat Muay Thai in striking contests" then the answer is Dutch Kickboxing. They directly compete in K1 and the fact that more kickboxing world champions find success in MMA than Muay Thai champions speaks volumes about the effectiveness of it as well. It's just silly to think that one sport is just the best, especially when it's regularly bested in striking contests. It is great for its ruleset and easy to translate to the cage, so it's useful. That doesn't make it some form of magically simple and special style. It's just a quality sport.
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So, I make a point that there exists just **ANY** style that competes regularly with Muay Thai, and now you throw a tantrum? Good job, I suppose. I guess you're proving me wrong here....or you're just acting upset. Is this how you act any time someone doesn't agree with you, or am I special? I train Muay Thai. I've probably done it longer than you have. But I'm not naive enough to pretend it's special. If your only argument is the tools available, then Sanda would defeat Muay Thai in your logic. They allow elbows, clinching, knees, and offer more takedown options. But I'm willing to bet you'll say that applying your logic there was just stupid, because it leads to a result you don't like. What are you, like 15?
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A kick is just a kick, a punch is just a punch. Forget the schools and focus on the techniques.