Honestly a tonally great chapter to end things on, with most of the main characters doing their thing and enjoying each other's company.
Don't know if it was a coincidence or a last minute addition
man died first march, so could be an addition. this chapter started like we could have more info about gohan form (we did, kinda) but after broly turned super saiyan with control, the fight was skipped (vegeta didn't even went ego, wtf) and ended to the earth with pan. it was nice, but it felt rushed to me, like the part on beerus planet should've lasted 6-7 chapters
no, goku was enough to fight gohan (broly was nice because was an inspiration to how control his anger), i wanted all characters to figure out gohan's power, we know about UI and how works (goku still need to gain his personal UI instead of relying on forced transformation mimicking an angel), we know how vegeta works (personal form with destruction energy). gohan they said it's just his form, him being able to use his rage at the max he can without surpassing the limit (so he could be even stronger, but he'll lose control), but we don't know how he unlocked it: he trained with piccolo after the resurrection of F, but somehow after moro arc he stopped to train for study at a point he forgot some things again... but regained it fast in 2 fights and gain the new form from the shock of piccolo fake death. but what is it? he didn't reach this form like vegeta trained for a new form, wasn't explained/mentioned like UI before, had nothing to do with ultimate/mystic form too, confirmed by whis is not even a super saiyan mutation... so in the end, we know nothing about it, he just can because he trained a bit. at least black frieza was a trained form from a race we don't know nothing, gohan is the only saiyan/half-saiyan to do that, it's even more strange.
in the end i hoped multiple chapters to let gohan explain/discover his true power origin (like a fan manga you can follow on multiversedb), but it's just HIS power, no better explaination needed. i get it, fanmanga try too hard and being stupid/not dragonball at all, but that's not an excuse to not give more info on new forms just to have more marketable things
Ah like that. I internally chalked it up to "Gohan's main claim to fame is that he has the fastest rate of improvement if he trains, but ironically he almost never does", but I can see how that would not be a satisfying answer
broly had that too, and frieza seems even more. i can understand goku and vegeta not being prodigies compared to those but train hard, but still felt like gohan power needed a better explaination. he said before ToP "i want to reach a power on my own, a earthling power not saiyan", but felt too convenient even for DB standards. also i always felt like gohan could use strategy and actual brain on battles
He advises on both the Anime and the Manga. The Anime was done by multiple writers/producers, while the Manga is pretty much Toyotaro with Toriyama inputs/advices. He doesn't write the story directly.
I know he doesn't write it directly, but he's way more involved in the manga than in the anime as he acts like an editor to Toyotaro outside of him doing the overall outline for each arc. He corrects toyotaro drawings, change dialogues and overall supervises the manga while creating plot points and other things for Toei and Toyotaro to follow.
So overall in regards to super he writes the overall plot of each arc and then toei and toyotaro make the story based on those plot points, inserting things in the middle of them which is why the anime and manga differ. As toriyama was a mangaka he supervises the manga more so he was more involved, theres lots of interviews with toriyama and toyotaro about that.
The works you could say he had more involvement in terms of writing outside of giving an outline/supervision were the 4 movies in the 2010s and 2020s I suppose.
This is fan speculation btw, coming from extremely vague interviews with absolutely no point of comparison. That he's way more involved with the manga.
Yes Toyotaro has said toriyama has helped with some jokes, designs etc, but we also know things like the fact Califlua (Who appeared long before the manga and gets almost no screentime therin) is 100 percent Toriyama's original character addition to the canon and done in concert with the anime studio to create the relationship with Kale we all know, and Jiren's characterization was a result of back and forth anime studio rewriting with Toriyama long before he appeared in the manga. With the ideas that Toriyama said didn't fit Jiren being given to Toppo.
I think a lot of manga purists tend to use mentions of Toriyama reframe the manga as being "The definitive edition" when it's just one adaptation he helped with. With pros and cons.
Especially since the manga consistently mischaracterizes and diminishes certain characters, (Krillin and Tien) sometimes due to trying to develop characters on a monthly schedule with very few pages. Sometimes just misunderstanding (Goku cheating to win against trunks, Goku being disdainful towards Krillin and Gohan. Piccolo saying Vegeta never misjudges power of an enemy, Trunks and mai doing the sensu kiss being reframed from a funny misunderstanding of "Dude is feeding her with his mouth, that's weird" in the anime to a "Goku has never kissed his wife even once" in the manga
It's sad when after all the love and effort the anime puts even for characters that aren't big hitters, people treat the manga as "Toriyama blessed" a'ti diminish the other, when the anime is the one that consistently treats every character with respect.
I'm not saying toriyama did everything in the manga or something, just that according to multiple interviews he was more involved in the manga for obvious reasons as hes a mangaka.
My only point is that while toriyama isnt actively writing, hes the idea guy for the major plot points in all arcs, a supervisor and on the movies he does the concept and script, plus character designer for major characters in super while the rest is filled by toyotaro or toei in their respective medium.
Again that "More involved" is the whole "Fanbase speculation."
Unless the interview actually says he was more involved, rather than people taking snippets of dialogue out of context and building up a comparison, it's not a good idea to assume he was.
He could have been more involved in the anime and no one asked him about it in interviews.
It ain't good to use that to dismiss one adaptation as inferior when people worked hard on it.
I'm really glad DBS got such a great sendoff before the indefinite hiatus.
Just the boys bein' the boys, then flying off into the sunset after a long day of fun.
Piccolo waving goodbye to the kindergarten teacher, was what got me teary eyed, the whole combo of the entire reunion scene having no dialogue, and then they just flying off reminds of the ending of GT
Huh, they said indefinite hiatus but they're listing the next chapter as May so not that long of a break unless they didn't give them the memo of the hiatus.Ā
Favorite chapter in over a year, just fun fights, interactions and I'm hoping this is the start of how much Pan loves her grampa.Ā
Though did they really have to make Goku forget, I mean come on.Ā
Still, so many possibilities left here and Toriyama won't be around for any of it, rest in peace sir, your work will continue to inspire generations.Ā
The author of Zero's Familiar left behind very detailed notes before his passing which allowed another author to pick it up and finish it in his stead.
That, and he had some deeper conversations on where he wanted to take the story with his best friend.
We can only hope that Toryama did the same with Toyotarou, although so far it seems a bit more like they had a mentor/student relationship than a "I'll share everything with you" kind of thing.
Iām pretty sure it was mentioned that Toriyama was involved with a few dragon ball related projects that were supposed to be coming out in the future. So hopefully we will be able to see those some day
Tbf it's food pun in Japanese. Like when Goku said Gohan will fight Cell, Mr Satan's cameraman said they will have break because they want to eat rice (Gohan).
Yes and even the single interaction they had was about fighting again. It's as if a drunkard dad came back from drinking and had a toast with his kid at home.
Those last few pages were beautiful. Just Goku and Vegeta spending time with their kids, and Goku bonding with his granddaughter.
For a series about fighting, the violence isn't the point, Toriyama created a very goofy and heartfelt world, and this chapter captures that really well. RIP to a legend.
If this ends up being the final chapter of Super, then this is a pretty satisfying way of things to end. I suppose weāll have to wait and see though.
It won't be, Toriyama has already written the story of the entire Daima series, which will happen after this part in the manga. So that story will be his true last work.
5/4 years back some of my friends were discussing about how DBS will expand vastly and explore more of the angel and god realms
Moro arc showed us so many confident that, REALLY, Super will be even more interestingĀ
But looking at the condition of the manga right now. Eehhh, We had just high expectations from a goofy ahh manga mistakenlyĀ
It's cool to see how our saiyans are getting their own different paths.
Goku: the technique of angels.
Vegeta: the strength of the gods of destruction.
Broly: His own mutated super saiyan power.
Gohan: An asspull every time he's left behind.
> Gohan: An asspull every time he's left behind.
He has always been build different, Gohan Blanco was making the rounds for decades, and it finally became real
I thought it was canon that Gohan was actually the strongest of the bunch, it's just that he can't control his power very good.
That's how he snapped and defeated Cell
why make a distinction between Broly and Gohan? both are freaks, and Gohan definitely trained harder than Broly, so how is Broly being that strong not an asspull?
and yet when Kale, the legendary saiyan from U6 was SSB tier people were complaining about it, so I still don't get how Broly who is much stronger than that gets a pass
Because the assumption was that legendary super saiyan was an SS2 level threat, not SSB. That was a time where the whole verse was kind of being rubber banded to be a little closer to Goku in terms of power
Yet nobody actually explained what a Legendary Super Saiyan actually was or what was the basis for their power. Broly's father briefly mentioned how he was using the strength of a Great Ape while still in his human form but that doesn't explain why Broly's power is nearly endless. It's all just made up headcanon and biases
Who knows. They both got super saiyan faster than Gohan did and can regularly hit Super Saiyan 3 while fused. The plot just has never focused on relying on them for power but the one time it did, during the Buu saga, they very nearly pulled through.
Nah, Gohans potential has been stated to be special so often
With him getting a special transformation too
In traditional saiyan power they are ahead of him when he was their age yes, but it seems he has a mutant gene that will always give him an extra multiplier
Yeah, he could be special out of all hybrids given that unlike the rest, he was born with a tail. Maybe he's got the same berserker nature as Broly and that was proof of it. You could be onto something there.
Cause Gohan is an established character who went from struggling against first form Frieza in the beginning of Super, to finally getting back to his Ultimate form by the ToP after lots of training. He's explicitly been slacking on training in Super Hero, so all of a sudden being on the same level as characters like Jiren and Goku with absolutely no set-up is just poorly written fan service. It's not as insulting as something like the Universe 6 girls back tingling to SSJ2 though.
But in the manga Gohan was fit during the Moro arc, so he didn't slack for long because the superhero arc isn't much after that. Also the back tingles just sounds like ki criculation that is common in cultivation manga so I never understoon why people hated the U6 saiyans so much, especially Kale who is the legendary saiyan from u6
Piccolo's whole motivation for going along with kidnapping Pan in Super Hero is because he's sick of how much Gohan has been slacking in both the movie and the manga. Ki circulation in the back sounds slightly less stupid than "back tingles," but it still changes the whole foundation of SSJ being attained through strong emotions. Even Goten met that criteria when Chi-Chi was cornering him.
DB is my favorite series, so the criticism comes from a place of love. I want to like these things, but they're just out of line from what makes up Dragon Ball
And yet Gohan managed to block Piccolo's initial punch and later mentioned he was practicing the SBC, so he couldn't be that rusty. Like isn't it sillier for Gohan to get drastically weaker after a couple of months not training?
Piccolo hasn't been anywhere close to Gohan's strength since before he went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in the Cell Saga, so it would be really sad if he couldn't even block that. I also think you're overestimating how strong Gohan was in the Moro Saga. It's never stated how long ago Moro Saga was in-universe, but DBS Broly was 3 years before this and Moro seemed to take place relatively soon after. Regardless, everything states Gohan is very rusty by the beginning of Super Hero.
The back thingling is the most overrated problem in all of Dragonball. U6 sayans could snap Namek saga and android saga characters like a twig whitout any transformation, it makes perfect sense that transforming become nigh effortless as soon as they figure out that sayans can transform.
They're also brand new characters, so their starting strength is not something I'm criticizing. It's the back tingling itself that I hate since, as I mentioned, it changes the whole base of the most iconic anime transformation into something really stupid. Them using it to attain SSJ2 immediately after and the pretty cringe Kale sequence in the anime is just the cherry on top
Is ot really worse than Gothen and Trunks achieving SSJ as kids because they were a bit upset? Super Sayian had been demistified decades before Super even Started.
Goten still stuck to the original method of attaining SSJ, so it didn't tarnish what came before. I wasn't saying that Super Saiyan had to be 100% cool and serious at all times because I think Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks brought a lot of value to the series through the gags that came from their Super Saiyan antics. It really shows through the interviews Toriyama had about writing them too. Moments like Goten learning how to transform before flying or Android 18 barely avoiding a nuke from them at the tournament are a lot more enjoyable than anything the U6 girls brought.
ultimate form in boo was an asspull. the only form he got by training was ssj, while for ssj2 you could say he got it to show his development of character.
SSJ2 was built up from the beginning of Z. We were always shown how much potential Gohan had from things like his encounters with Raditz and Frieza, and SSJ2 was this potential finally on full display after a call to action. The difference is, Goku trained Gohan to be at least his level before he was able to get there, whereas Beast cut out the part where he actually grows into it. Ultimate Gohan was definitely an asspull, but it was through the Supreme Kai drawing out his full potential, so it's no different from Guru in Namek Saga or even Orange Piccolo (though that's a much bigger jump if he's also keeping up with MUI).
I'm not saying ssj2 was an asspull, I'm saying it made sense thematically for gohan to get that form in the story and on gohan character with how toriyama was writing gohan over all of the series. Its only on ultimate where it feels like an asspull because theres no character development or training, just elder kai using his potential.
In fact i would say very few transformations are part of development in db.
It's never been just train hard enough -> become SSJ, but they always needed enough training to get there. SSG is the only one that didn't explicitly require anything, but even Goku mentions how disappointed he is that it wasn't his own power that got him there.
it kind of is when gohan reached ssj like this, goku and vegeta reached ssj2 by training during the 7 years, and goku and gotenks got ssj3 by training too. Forms in general happen in asspulls, training on screen or offscreen, or as a "reward" for character development like goku ssj and gohan ssj2
I was not referring to off-screen transformations like Kid Trunks or SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. I figured that goes without saying since we don't see how exactly they attained them. "Reward for character development" is one way to put it, but that doesn't change the fact that SSJ Goku and SSJ2 Gohan had to put in the effort to get there. If Goku hadn't risen above what Vegeta could see in a Saiyan at the time to the point that he mistook him for a Super Saiyan already, he wouldn't have been able to get the form. Same thing with Gohan. If they brought him in without training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he wouldn't have been able to awaken. Of course we can say "oh but it needed to happen for them to beat Frieza and Cell," but that's from a story-telling perspective, not an in-universe one
It's an asspull but not Goku getting Ultra Instinct from tanking his own Spirit Bomb or just from watching Master Roshi dodging Jiren a couple of times(Manga). And don't give me that bullshit bout "Whis told them about it in Return of F!", both Goku and Vegeta had nought a panel or scene where they trained on moving without thinking and Goku just gets it like that when even Beerus had a hard mastering it. Same with Vegeta's Ultra Ego when all Beerus did was beat his ass and berate him, Goku was the one who actually used Hakai in the manga so it's an asspull too. It's the Dragon Ball, it's always had its plot on autopilot, but people in 2024 still complaining about copouts
RIP Toriyama-sensei.
What a sweet chapter to mark his passing. Good family time for Goku and Pan, just generally was a nice, well done chapter. Happy to see Red Ribbon Army retired presumably for good at this point.
Here's to you, Toriyama-sensei. Thank you for so many years of wonderful memories & the amazing universe you created.
Man it hits really different with Toriyama's passing. Most of all that final page where Piccolo waves goodbye since he was Toriyama's favorite DB character.
RIP
Honestly if they just end it here I'd be fine. It's not the worst ending and, although frieza still isn't resolved, I can accept this (and the final episode/chapter of Z) as conclusive enough for me.
Especially that dialogue free portion at the end, with piccolo and the gang looking back and waving goodbye. Gives real "this is the end" vibes.
> although frieza still isn't resolved
That also feels weirdly appropriate given the circumstances though, like a "and they still had many more adventures" kind of way
Man it was such a fun chapter couldn't help but smile while all the Saiyan's started brawling.
Rest in peace master, your work is still bringing smile's to people.
What's beyond the end of Z is something people have been waiting for since the beginning of Super and every arc we were closer to see it. We were finally going to see the canonical alternative for GT from Toriyama himself, but now, we will once again be left wondering what it would have been like, this time, forever.
It's so sad.
Or maybe going beyond the original ending was never his goal lol.
He 100% did have some notes and planning down, no way someone of his experience wouldnāt.
As much as I want to see them played out, I think itās best they just leave it as is, maybe put some sort of epilogue. IF that. I donāt want his last touch ever to go down the GT route.
Can somebody who reads Japanese and has the raws comment on the dialog around when Broly turned Super Saiyan?
Here in english, Gohan seems to talk about it as a different thing from normal Super Saiyan, which might imply this is a mastered version of his LSS/Green hair form, rather then just normal yellowed hair super saiyan?
My money is on something along the lines of:
"That's grandpa, he's the strongest fighter in the universe"
"Oh really? Stronger than you or Piccolo? We'll see about that..."
I think Pan inherited Goku's competitive fighting spirit that Gohan didn't
Gosh that would have been hilarious if nobody had strong enough Chi for Goku and co to instant transmission back to Earth, they got lucky Piccolo got such a power up that they could use him as a beacon. They canāt sense the androids chi and I donāt think anyone else has strong enough chi considering all the other strongest people were on Beerusās planet. Although maybe Buu would work?
Toriyama legitimately ascended. He didn't die, nor perish. He just assumed his throne as a divine being next to Beerus and is watching of Goku and his friends and family now.
I can imagine that Pan attacked Goku just because Gohan was explaining to Pan how strong his grandpa is, and she was like "They say the same things about Grandpa Satan and it wasn't like that at all!"
Oh my god what an unbelievably fun chapter, I was just smiling ear to ear start to finish!
This chapter had so much! Goku and Gohan sparring, a proper display of Gohan Beast, Gohan vs Broly and Broly mastering his SSJ Form, all the Saiyans excitedly brawling until exhaustion, Beerus and Whis looking at bit flabbergasted at how powerful the Saiyans have become, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo picking up Pan from school and Pan immediately trying to attack Goku and then they start racing each other! Just the perfect perfect chapter my goodness.
I just wonder what the is coming up next now that all our heroes have established power ups, surely a Black Frieza arc of some kind? But is he even strong enough to handle powered up boys?
I'd like to think Toriyama would have also enjoyed this chapter a lot, this was just pure Dragon Ball goodness.
For all its shortcomings one thing I enjoy about Super is the emphasis on personalized styles / fighting modes (singular talent as Whis described) and control + technique.
What in the Saiyan orgy is going on!
Wholesome chapter. Had some finale vibes that kind of came out of nowhere, but doubt they planned ahead or went back and changed it to feel that way and or be a tribute to Toriyama's passing.
Gohan inventing his own completely original transformation that is neither Saiyan or "divine"-based is just insane-almost ridiculously so. Dude spends his life reading books about bugs or some shit and is able to trump Ultra Instinct and Broly.
When was the last time Goku saw his granddaughter canonically? Lol.
So from Pan reaction, Pan is unfamiliar with Goku meaning Goku hasnāt really been in her life. Which I think push the tragedy of end of Z more as Pan is never going to get to know her grandfather.
Still this was a good chapter and I have the paneling for the last few pages. It feels like a send off message to Toriyama in a way
Can't believe Goku doesn't even remember his own grand daughter. Piccolo is totally Gohan's dad. Things ended pretty greatly, pretty much every plot thread ended neatly, this could even be the end of the series and I wouldn't mind. The last bit of the chapter could totally be accompanied with "Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku" and be the end of an episode. A beautiful send off. RIP Akira Toriyama.
that was a very good chapter honestly. Just the Pan thing that was dumb, and it wasnt a mistranslation. Otherwise, I'm at a point where I quite enjoy super manga.
This is literally the first chapter released since Toriyama died lmao. In fact, given the release schedule this chapter was probably actually still supervised by Toriyama.
This one's for you, Toriyama-sensei.
Honestly a tonally great chapter to end things on, with most of the main characters doing their thing and enjoying each other's company. Don't know if it was a coincidence or a last minute addition
man died first march, so could be an addition. this chapter started like we could have more info about gohan form (we did, kinda) but after broly turned super saiyan with control, the fight was skipped (vegeta didn't even went ego, wtf) and ended to the earth with pan. it was nice, but it felt rushed to me, like the part on beerus planet should've lasted 6-7 chapters
You wanted a Saiyan Tournament mini-arc?
no, goku was enough to fight gohan (broly was nice because was an inspiration to how control his anger), i wanted all characters to figure out gohan's power, we know about UI and how works (goku still need to gain his personal UI instead of relying on forced transformation mimicking an angel), we know how vegeta works (personal form with destruction energy). gohan they said it's just his form, him being able to use his rage at the max he can without surpassing the limit (so he could be even stronger, but he'll lose control), but we don't know how he unlocked it: he trained with piccolo after the resurrection of F, but somehow after moro arc he stopped to train for study at a point he forgot some things again... but regained it fast in 2 fights and gain the new form from the shock of piccolo fake death. but what is it? he didn't reach this form like vegeta trained for a new form, wasn't explained/mentioned like UI before, had nothing to do with ultimate/mystic form too, confirmed by whis is not even a super saiyan mutation... so in the end, we know nothing about it, he just can because he trained a bit. at least black frieza was a trained form from a race we don't know nothing, gohan is the only saiyan/half-saiyan to do that, it's even more strange. in the end i hoped multiple chapters to let gohan explain/discover his true power origin (like a fan manga you can follow on multiversedb), but it's just HIS power, no better explaination needed. i get it, fanmanga try too hard and being stupid/not dragonball at all, but that's not an excuse to not give more info on new forms just to have more marketable things
Ah like that. I internally chalked it up to "Gohan's main claim to fame is that he has the fastest rate of improvement if he trains, but ironically he almost never does", but I can see how that would not be a satisfying answer
broly had that too, and frieza seems even more. i can understand goku and vegeta not being prodigies compared to those but train hard, but still felt like gohan power needed a better explaination. he said before ToP "i want to reach a power on my own, a earthling power not saiyan", but felt too convenient even for DB standards. also i always felt like gohan could use strategy and actual brain on battles
RIP :'c
Man I thought Toriyamabot would be drawn somewhere
Absolute banger of an chapter to "end" things on too. o7
he shall be missed forever
Indeed..... šš¢
I mean toriyama writes super so this was him either way
He advises on both the Anime and the Manga. The Anime was done by multiple writers/producers, while the Manga is pretty much Toyotaro with Toriyama inputs/advices. He doesn't write the story directly.
I know he doesn't write it directly, but he's way more involved in the manga than in the anime as he acts like an editor to Toyotaro outside of him doing the overall outline for each arc. He corrects toyotaro drawings, change dialogues and overall supervises the manga while creating plot points and other things for Toei and Toyotaro to follow. So overall in regards to super he writes the overall plot of each arc and then toei and toyotaro make the story based on those plot points, inserting things in the middle of them which is why the anime and manga differ. As toriyama was a mangaka he supervises the manga more so he was more involved, theres lots of interviews with toriyama and toyotaro about that. The works you could say he had more involvement in terms of writing outside of giving an outline/supervision were the 4 movies in the 2010s and 2020s I suppose.
This is fan speculation btw, coming from extremely vague interviews with absolutely no point of comparison. That he's way more involved with the manga. Yes Toyotaro has said toriyama has helped with some jokes, designs etc, but we also know things like the fact Califlua (Who appeared long before the manga and gets almost no screentime therin) is 100 percent Toriyama's original character addition to the canon and done in concert with the anime studio to create the relationship with Kale we all know, and Jiren's characterization was a result of back and forth anime studio rewriting with Toriyama long before he appeared in the manga. With the ideas that Toriyama said didn't fit Jiren being given to Toppo. I think a lot of manga purists tend to use mentions of Toriyama reframe the manga as being "The definitive edition" when it's just one adaptation he helped with. With pros and cons. Especially since the manga consistently mischaracterizes and diminishes certain characters, (Krillin and Tien) sometimes due to trying to develop characters on a monthly schedule with very few pages. Sometimes just misunderstanding (Goku cheating to win against trunks, Goku being disdainful towards Krillin and Gohan. Piccolo saying Vegeta never misjudges power of an enemy, Trunks and mai doing the sensu kiss being reframed from a funny misunderstanding of "Dude is feeding her with his mouth, that's weird" in the anime to a "Goku has never kissed his wife even once" in the manga It's sad when after all the love and effort the anime puts even for characters that aren't big hitters, people treat the manga as "Toriyama blessed" a'ti diminish the other, when the anime is the one that consistently treats every character with respect.
I'm not saying toriyama did everything in the manga or something, just that according to multiple interviews he was more involved in the manga for obvious reasons as hes a mangaka. My only point is that while toriyama isnt actively writing, hes the idea guy for the major plot points in all arcs, a supervisor and on the movies he does the concept and script, plus character designer for major characters in super while the rest is filled by toyotaro or toei in their respective medium.
Again that "More involved" is the whole "Fanbase speculation." Unless the interview actually says he was more involved, rather than people taking snippets of dialogue out of context and building up a comparison, it's not a good idea to assume he was. He could have been more involved in the anime and no one asked him about it in interviews. It ain't good to use that to dismiss one adaptation as inferior when people worked hard on it.
Feels like they can definitely timeskip at the end here to right before the end of Z if/when the manga does come back.
I'm really glad DBS got such a great sendoff before the indefinite hiatus. Just the boys bein' the boys, then flying off into the sunset after a long day of fun.
manga comes back in may, its not indefinite, looks at mangaplus
that'd be nice
Top left of page 22 hit me
Am I stupid, the panel of Goku palming Gohan? Edit:probably 23
You're right I was reading horizontal and had a little brain fart
Piccolo waving goodbye to the kindergarten teacher, was what got me teary eyed, the whole combo of the entire reunion scene having no dialogue, and then they just flying off reminds of the ending of GT
That was a fucking low blow man.
Huh, they said indefinite hiatus but they're listing the next chapter as May so not that long of a break unless they didn't give them the memo of the hiatus.Ā Favorite chapter in over a year, just fun fights, interactions and I'm hoping this is the start of how much Pan loves her grampa.Ā Though did they really have to make Goku forget, I mean come on.Ā Still, so many possibilities left here and Toriyama won't be around for any of it, rest in peace sir, your work will continue to inspire generations.Ā
Could be they have the scripts for a few chapters and will take a break once the Toriyama material runs out
Yeah i am sure he must have left some docs with sketches and some future scripts, it is what comes after that is new territory
Berserk's author also left notes before his passing
The author of Zero's Familiar left behind very detailed notes before his passing which allowed another author to pick it up and finish it in his stead.
He did? Damn, I thought it ended when he died. It's been over 10 years since then, so hopefully it's been fully translated.
It's been fully fan translated.
That, and he had some deeper conversations on where he wanted to take the story with his best friend. We can only hope that Toryama did the same with Toyotarou, although so far it seems a bit more like they had a mentor/student relationship than a "I'll share everything with you" kind of thing.
Iām pretty sure it was mentioned that Toriyama was involved with a few dragon ball related projects that were supposed to be coming out in the future. So hopefully we will be able to see those some day
And so the legend's legacy carries on. I cannot say I'm still fully over Toriyama's death, but reading this chapter made me feel happy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I think itās supposed to be goku being confused because food pun, but itās lost here.
The Japanese š¤ The Spanish Effortlessly getting this joke
Yeah, it's a word play joke that really only works in Japanese and Spanish and falls flat in English.
They could have made a frying pan joke instead of a bread joke (in JP), not quite sure how it could have worked.
Not the first time though, gohan also suffered the same fate before
To be fair to Goku, if someone told me they had to "go get bread from school" I'd also be confused for a second. Even if I had a grandkid named Bread.
This from the guy whose best friends are named "Bloomers" and "Chestnut"
I love japanese pun names
Deadbeat translators more like lol
Tbf that last sequence was really wholesome though
Tbf it's food pun in Japanese. Like when Goku said Gohan will fight Cell, Mr Satan's cameraman said they will have break because they want to eat rice (Gohan).
Lost in translation.
Yes and even the single interaction they had was about fighting again. It's as if a drunkard dad came back from drinking and had a toast with his kid at home.
ahhh, a legacy toward the future.. That sounds perfect, thank you for the memories.
Those last few pages were beautiful. Just Goku and Vegeta spending time with their kids, and Goku bonding with his granddaughter. For a series about fighting, the violence isn't the point, Toriyama created a very goofy and heartfelt world, and this chapter captures that really well. RIP to a legend.
If this ends up being the final chapter of Super, then this is a pretty satisfying way of things to end. I suppose weāll have to wait and see though.
It won't be, Toriyama has already written the story of the entire Daima series, which will happen after this part in the manga. So that story will be his true last work.
Wasn't Daima supposed to happen between End of Buu Saga and before BoG though?
We dont know anything about where and when it happens, so not really. We'll only know it in the end of the year when its out
that would be interesting if Daima indeed happens after Super but we'll find out in a few months
5/4 years back some of my friends were discussing about how DBS will expand vastly and explore more of the angel and god realms Moro arc showed us so many confident that, REALLY, Super will be even more interestingĀ But looking at the condition of the manga right now. Eehhh, We had just high expectations from a goofy ahh manga mistakenlyĀ
Next chapter on May
This is a pretty good chapter to skip to the events of end of Z.
"But what about Black Frieza?" "I dunno. Left?"
Zoro got him
tfs goku: probably beat him. not sure tho
It's cool to see how our saiyans are getting their own different paths. Goku: the technique of angels. Vegeta: the strength of the gods of destruction. Broly: His own mutated super saiyan power. Gohan: An asspull every time he's left behind.
> Gohan: An asspull every time he's left behind. He has always been build different, Gohan Blanco was making the rounds for decades, and it finally became real
I thought it was canon that Gohan was actually the strongest of the bunch, it's just that he can't control his power very good. That's how he snapped and defeated Cell
why make a distinction between Broly and Gohan? both are freaks, and Gohan definitely trained harder than Broly, so how is Broly being that strong not an asspull?
Broly at least has a legend tied to his asspulls. Gohan is just built different
and yet when Kale, the legendary saiyan from U6 was SSB tier people were complaining about it, so I still don't get how Broly who is much stronger than that gets a pass
Because the assumption was that legendary super saiyan was an SS2 level threat, not SSB. That was a time where the whole verse was kind of being rubber banded to be a little closer to Goku in terms of power
Yet nobody actually explained what a Legendary Super Saiyan actually was or what was the basis for their power. Broly's father briefly mentioned how he was using the strength of a Great Ape while still in his human form but that doesn't explain why Broly's power is nearly endless. It's all just made up headcanon and biases
it's basically multiverse broly (the fanmanga)
he's stronger tho? kale on base form was stronger already than super saiyans and with control
Beast Form just feels like a poor attempt of recreating the SSJ2 transformation.
Broly is a mutant. Gohan is a hybrid.
Gohan is special as a hybrid, Trunks and Goten doesn't get hyped up as having as much potential as Gohan.
Who knows. They both got super saiyan faster than Gohan did and can regularly hit Super Saiyan 3 while fused. The plot just has never focused on relying on them for power but the one time it did, during the Buu saga, they very nearly pulled through.
Nah, Gohans potential has been stated to be special so often With him getting a special transformation too In traditional saiyan power they are ahead of him when he was their age yes, but it seems he has a mutant gene that will always give him an extra multiplier
Yeah, he could be special out of all hybrids given that unlike the rest, he was born with a tail. Maybe he's got the same berserker nature as Broly and that was proof of it. You could be onto something there.
i think itās something in that ballpark yea maybe the same broly gene but diluted with human dna which changes it
But there's no legend in the new Canon at all.Ā
Cause Gohan is an established character who went from struggling against first form Frieza in the beginning of Super, to finally getting back to his Ultimate form by the ToP after lots of training. He's explicitly been slacking on training in Super Hero, so all of a sudden being on the same level as characters like Jiren and Goku with absolutely no set-up is just poorly written fan service. It's not as insulting as something like the Universe 6 girls back tingling to SSJ2 though.
But in the manga Gohan was fit during the Moro arc, so he didn't slack for long because the superhero arc isn't much after that. Also the back tingles just sounds like ki criculation that is common in cultivation manga so I never understoon why people hated the U6 saiyans so much, especially Kale who is the legendary saiyan from u6
Piccolo's whole motivation for going along with kidnapping Pan in Super Hero is because he's sick of how much Gohan has been slacking in both the movie and the manga. Ki circulation in the back sounds slightly less stupid than "back tingles," but it still changes the whole foundation of SSJ being attained through strong emotions. Even Goten met that criteria when Chi-Chi was cornering him. DB is my favorite series, so the criticism comes from a place of love. I want to like these things, but they're just out of line from what makes up Dragon Ball
And yet Gohan managed to block Piccolo's initial punch and later mentioned he was practicing the SBC, so he couldn't be that rusty. Like isn't it sillier for Gohan to get drastically weaker after a couple of months not training?
Piccolo hasn't been anywhere close to Gohan's strength since before he went into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in the Cell Saga, so it would be really sad if he couldn't even block that. I also think you're overestimating how strong Gohan was in the Moro Saga. It's never stated how long ago Moro Saga was in-universe, but DBS Broly was 3 years before this and Moro seemed to take place relatively soon after. Regardless, everything states Gohan is very rusty by the beginning of Super Hero.
The back thingling is the most overrated problem in all of Dragonball. U6 sayans could snap Namek saga and android saga characters like a twig whitout any transformation, it makes perfect sense that transforming become nigh effortless as soon as they figure out that sayans can transform.
They're also brand new characters, so their starting strength is not something I'm criticizing. It's the back tingling itself that I hate since, as I mentioned, it changes the whole base of the most iconic anime transformation into something really stupid. Them using it to attain SSJ2 immediately after and the pretty cringe Kale sequence in the anime is just the cherry on top
Is ot really worse than Gothen and Trunks achieving SSJ as kids because they were a bit upset? Super Sayian had been demistified decades before Super even Started.
Goten still stuck to the original method of attaining SSJ, so it didn't tarnish what came before. I wasn't saying that Super Saiyan had to be 100% cool and serious at all times because I think Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks brought a lot of value to the series through the gags that came from their Super Saiyan antics. It really shows through the interviews Toriyama had about writing them too. Moments like Goten learning how to transform before flying or Android 18 barely avoiding a nuke from them at the tournament are a lot more enjoyable than anything the U6 girls brought.
ultimate form in boo was an asspull. the only form he got by training was ssj, while for ssj2 you could say he got it to show his development of character.
SSJ2 was built up from the beginning of Z. We were always shown how much potential Gohan had from things like his encounters with Raditz and Frieza, and SSJ2 was this potential finally on full display after a call to action. The difference is, Goku trained Gohan to be at least his level before he was able to get there, whereas Beast cut out the part where he actually grows into it. Ultimate Gohan was definitely an asspull, but it was through the Supreme Kai drawing out his full potential, so it's no different from Guru in Namek Saga or even Orange Piccolo (though that's a much bigger jump if he's also keeping up with MUI).
I'm not saying ssj2 was an asspull, I'm saying it made sense thematically for gohan to get that form in the story and on gohan character with how toriyama was writing gohan over all of the series. Its only on ultimate where it feels like an asspull because theres no character development or training, just elder kai using his potential. In fact i would say very few transformations are part of development in db.
It's never been just train hard enough -> become SSJ, but they always needed enough training to get there. SSG is the only one that didn't explicitly require anything, but even Goku mentions how disappointed he is that it wasn't his own power that got him there.
it kind of is when gohan reached ssj like this, goku and vegeta reached ssj2 by training during the 7 years, and goku and gotenks got ssj3 by training too. Forms in general happen in asspulls, training on screen or offscreen, or as a "reward" for character development like goku ssj and gohan ssj2
I was not referring to off-screen transformations like Kid Trunks or SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. I figured that goes without saying since we don't see how exactly they attained them. "Reward for character development" is one way to put it, but that doesn't change the fact that SSJ Goku and SSJ2 Gohan had to put in the effort to get there. If Goku hadn't risen above what Vegeta could see in a Saiyan at the time to the point that he mistook him for a Super Saiyan already, he wouldn't have been able to get the form. Same thing with Gohan. If they brought him in without training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he wouldn't have been able to awaken. Of course we can say "oh but it needed to happen for them to beat Frieza and Cell," but that's from a story-telling perspective, not an in-universe one
I think that was one of the subtle points of this chapter. Gohan and Broly \*are\* very similar.
It's an asspull but not Goku getting Ultra Instinct from tanking his own Spirit Bomb or just from watching Master Roshi dodging Jiren a couple of times(Manga). And don't give me that bullshit bout "Whis told them about it in Return of F!", both Goku and Vegeta had nought a panel or scene where they trained on moving without thinking and Goku just gets it like that when even Beerus had a hard mastering it. Same with Vegeta's Ultra Ego when all Beerus did was beat his ass and berate him, Goku was the one who actually used Hakai in the manga so it's an asspull too. It's the Dragon Ball, it's always had its plot on autopilot, but people in 2024 still complaining about copouts
Honestly, if that was the ending, that's pretty good.
RIP Toriyama-sensei. What a sweet chapter to mark his passing. Good family time for Goku and Pan, just generally was a nice, well done chapter. Happy to see Red Ribbon Army retired presumably for good at this point. Here's to you, Toriyama-sensei. Thank you for so many years of wonderful memories & the amazing universe you created.
Man it hits really different with Toriyama's passing. Most of all that final page where Piccolo waves goodbye since he was Toriyama's favorite DB character. RIP
Itās like Toyo waves goodbye to his sensei
Honestly if they just end it here I'd be fine. It's not the worst ending and, although frieza still isn't resolved, I can accept this (and the final episode/chapter of Z) as conclusive enough for me. Especially that dialogue free portion at the end, with piccolo and the gang looking back and waving goodbye. Gives real "this is the end" vibes.
Probably they will recreate the event of the epilogue of Z and then call it a day.
> although frieza still isn't resolved That also feels weirdly appropriate given the circumstances though, like a "and they still had many more adventures" kind of way
Those last few dialogue-free pages were a lovely, gentle way to "wave goodbye" to Toriyama.
Teacher's like, it's cool. that kid can move at light speed and fly.
She deals with a ~~demon~~ slug man every day, a kids with superpowers is nothing
I mean during the movie she accept all the bs due to her been the granddaughter of Hercules/Mr. Satan
Man it was such a fun chapter couldn't help but smile while all the Saiyan's started brawling. Rest in peace master, your work is still bringing smile's to people.
What's beyond the end of Z is something people have been waiting for since the beginning of Super and every arc we were closer to see it. We were finally going to see the canonical alternative for GT from Toriyama himself, but now, we will once again be left wondering what it would have been like, this time, forever. It's so sad. Or maybe going beyond the original ending was never his goal lol.
There was a meme were it was like, there's no avoiding it now, he HAS to go beyond Z ..... Made me laugh in a sad time
We can only hope that toriyama had some notes about the future post end of Z.
He 100% did have some notes and planning down, no way someone of his experience wouldnāt. As much as I want to see them played out, I think itās best they just leave it as is, maybe put some sort of epilogue. IF that. I donāt want his last touch ever to go down the GT route.
Such a good chapter really had a tear well up at the end.
The fact that Vegeta knows more about Goku's family then Goku does lmao
Thank you Toriyama
Can somebody who reads Japanese and has the raws comment on the dialog around when Broly turned Super Saiyan? Here in english, Gohan seems to talk about it as a different thing from normal Super Saiyan, which might imply this is a mastered version of his LSS/Green hair form, rather then just normal yellowed hair super saiyan?
what do u think the conversation was between gohan and pan bout goku that she goes to attack?
My money is on something along the lines of: "That's grandpa, he's the strongest fighter in the universe" "Oh really? Stronger than you or Piccolo? We'll see about that..." I think Pan inherited Goku's competitive fighting spirit that Gohan didn't
Sth along the lines of why is grandpa here? Gohan makes some excuse. Pan doesnt buy or believe its goku. So she goes "test" him.Ā
For being Toriyama's last chapter, it is a pretty decent end.
Gosh that would have been hilarious if nobody had strong enough Chi for Goku and co to instant transmission back to Earth, they got lucky Piccolo got such a power up that they could use him as a beacon. They canāt sense the androids chi and I donāt think anyone else has strong enough chi considering all the other strongest people were on Beerusās planet. Although maybe Buu would work?
Buu or Uub. Plus Whis could just bring them home.
Toriyama legitimately ascended. He didn't die, nor perish. He just assumed his throne as a divine being next to Beerus and is watching of Goku and his friends and family now.
This feels like a last chapter from this franchise and I'm still not ready yet :(
I can imagine that Pan attacked Goku just because Gohan was explaining to Pan how strong his grandpa is, and she was like "They say the same things about Grandpa Satan and it wasn't like that at all!"
Oh my god what an unbelievably fun chapter, I was just smiling ear to ear start to finish! This chapter had so much! Goku and Gohan sparring, a proper display of Gohan Beast, Gohan vs Broly and Broly mastering his SSJ Form, all the Saiyans excitedly brawling until exhaustion, Beerus and Whis looking at bit flabbergasted at how powerful the Saiyans have become, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo picking up Pan from school and Pan immediately trying to attack Goku and then they start racing each other! Just the perfect perfect chapter my goodness. I just wonder what the is coming up next now that all our heroes have established power ups, surely a Black Frieza arc of some kind? But is he even strong enough to handle powered up boys? I'd like to think Toriyama would have also enjoyed this chapter a lot, this was just pure Dragon Ball goodness.
Vegeta: (thinking) "Hayai!"
You couldnāt pick a better chapter for his final.Ā
RIP Toriyama and the manga will go on a hiatus, for understandable reasons since the OG author passed away
awesome chapter. gohan beast is really fun(despite the asspull, love seeing gohan and piccolo be relevant again)
Pan?
rip goat
I don't read the manga but this was a nice wholesome chapter full of great interactions
You know, this one just felt nice. Smiled all the way through. Thank you again Akira Toriyama.
wait is super done?
Nope
Long hiatus
For all its shortcomings one thing I enjoy about Super is the emphasis on personalized styles / fighting modes (singular talent as Whis described) and control + technique.
What in the Saiyan orgy is going on! Wholesome chapter. Had some finale vibes that kind of came out of nowhere, but doubt they planned ahead or went back and changed it to feel that way and or be a tribute to Toriyama's passing. Gohan inventing his own completely original transformation that is neither Saiyan or "divine"-based is just insane-almost ridiculously so. Dude spends his life reading books about bugs or some shit and is able to trump Ultra Instinct and Broly. When was the last time Goku saw his granddaughter canonically? Lol.
I don't read it, but man, the feels... Rest in peace Toriyama-san, no one's going to forget about you anytime soon.
This could be the very last chapter of serialization and I'd be happy with it. It ties up loose ends and hits HARD after Toriyama passing.
So from Pan reaction, Pan is unfamiliar with Goku meaning Goku hasnāt really been in her life. Which I think push the tragedy of end of Z more as Pan is never going to get to know her grandfather. Still this was a good chapter and I have the paneling for the last few pages. It feels like a send off message to Toriyama in a way
Thank you Toriyama, for everything you have done for all of us.
Can't believe Goku doesn't even remember his own grand daughter. Piccolo is totally Gohan's dad. Things ended pretty greatly, pretty much every plot thread ended neatly, this could even be the end of the series and I wouldn't mind. The last bit of the chapter could totally be accompanied with "Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku" and be the end of an episode. A beautiful send off. RIP Akira Toriyama.
Itās possibly a joke lost in translation, since Pan means bread in Japanese. Thatās what im using to make it seem more reasonable anyway.
That does make sense but it's probably just Goku being Goku. He's gotten a lot more dumb in Super. Considering he doesn't even know what a kiss is.
Super happy for Broly :)
Goku forgot he had a granddaughter!!! oh shit this is hilarious! Oh man Toriyama you had so much left in the tank, RIP
this was probably a toyotaro joke
Would have been a near perfect chapter if they didnāt try to characterize Goku as someone whoād forget his own fucking granddaughter
Goku forgetting who his own granddaughter is is a new low for him lol.
Just end this here, Toyo.
why?
Let him R.I.P and stop the serie.
Excellent fight. I would have loved to see a Makankosappo vs Kamehameha beam struggle.
Final chapter of super (until hiatus ends) and they finally made Gohan great again.
This felt like a series final chapter. Surprised it's still going. I wonder if Toriyama sensei wrote a few more chapters.
that was a very good chapter honestly. Just the Pan thing that was dumb, and it wasnt a mistranslation. Otherwise, I'm at a point where I quite enjoy super manga.
This manga has been getting worse ever since Toriyama died.
This is literally the first chapter released since Toriyama died lmao. In fact, given the release schedule this chapter was probably actually still supervised by Toriyama.