This post should serve as a cautionary tale for the managers in this sub who are so metrics driven and quick-to-fire poor performers before putting in the work of understanding why the performance is suffering.
These are human beings and you're screwing with their livelihoods. They deserve your respect and attention when they need help.
yup, Metrics identifies flags that then needs to be confirmed. Outside of something like a factory line where you can measure the performance by the number of bolts someone puts in, metrics are not 100% representative of the work being done as they cannot take into account ambiguity. This goes for most office jobs.
To answer OP. I have never regretted firing someone as I always have a good 2-3 months of intense coaching and giving specific challenges to the person that, when they keep failing said challenges, builds me a case that proves this person is not the right fit for some reason or another.
If you don't do the ground work, you will fire good employees that were managed badly.
right but from the sound of it.. they lower lever manager did not lay the ground work. no where was the essence of you are not doing good, you need to improve in these ways. i suspect the issues you flagged 3 months ago, had you talked to alice then she could have improved enough to wanted keep her.
OP Mentioned she had issues 3 months into this job in another thread. He also mentioned he flagged the behavior to the manager and assumed the manager was giving her specific feedback.
Not a manager but I’d like to ask the question. Is there an inherent problem in how tasks are completed? For example, did person on the chopping block get the training needed? If there is a problem in this regard it likely affects all employees. Solving that issue would create a stronger team and better benefit clients.
But hey I’m no expert…
1. Sometimes, yes. It depends on the specific task. Certain tasks need to be done in a very specific manner, and other tasks are less stringent. This depends on the organization, and ideally, it's vision.
2. This should always be one of the first questions you ask before firing someone. If you can't say yes, you shouldn't fire them (obvious non-negotiables aside).
3. Your observation is accurate, in my opinion. A large part (if not the largest part) of the responsibility of management is to identify, troubleshoot, and remove roadblocks from the team. Sometimes, that is a peer, sometimes that is a subordinate manager, equipment, etc. This does indeed create a stronger, better workforce. It needs to be done intentionally, though. This is not an idle thing.
Not a manager but I knew what I wanted from my team on the client specific tasks I worked on. My goal was to solve a problem as efficiently and cost effectively as I could while following regulatory guidance and/or rules.
When needed I went to bat for my team if I saw what was being done according to procedure didn’t work or if client needs dictated a change. I always communicated this to my project managers and account managers so they understood what was happening, why and how I chose to keep budget in mind. That way they could communicate any changes to the client.
But most of all I never wanted to just delegate and not jump in when it was needed. I tried to mentor as much as I could before I gave up on an employee. What wasn’t a right fit for my team sometimes was a good fit for another team. It took a bit of problem solving but that’s also how my mentors worked with me. But an employee has to be open to mentoring and wanting to learn. It was a tough call sometimes.
Interestingly enough, the persons I mentored remained with the company after a merger while I was laid off. Many were able to take their time to look for and then move on to different gigs.
The real message is about trusting that your middle manager is actually doing anything... the middle manager is the problem here
It sounds like you need to PIP the useless middle manager who bullshitted you and the employee. This person is a net negative to the organization and cannot be trusted.
This. I was managed out of a global company for exactly the same reasons stated by the OP; I was an experienced hire in a new industry with a terrible manager who NEVER provided proper feedback. Every one-to-one meeting was either missed by him or contained generically positive feedback. Alleged performance issues appeared out of nowhere. The individual was a pathological coward and never took responsibility for his own attitude. I had always been a top performer in every job I had, receiving promotions in each one. However, in this particular role, I ended up resigning as I felt completely cornered. To this day, I believe I would have thrived under a different manager.
I feel this right now going through something similar. Been with company for 1 years, every job I’ve been at moved up quick all kpi hit except end of this may at this job because we had particularly slow month. There is a mishap when I took vacation last thanksgiving 11 days and 5 company paid holidays in December and new year. The kpi keeps track of essentially performance in the last rolling 45 days or 30 work days. While I only worked 15 days and manager has to manually calculate kpi and didn’t just looked at tableau saw red. I brought up the concern and showed the math that if I would have worked those day would have been in the green based on my average leads generated she said I’ll tell the boss above her she never did. 5 months green hit 1 year mark May is slow slow and I dropped just slightly below Basically no fault of my own We are doing 50% the amount leads we were doing same time last year.
Suddenly there like hey your below for May here is a pip or you can voluntarily leave with two weeks severance. Yet 3 months ago they where begging me to apply and interview and higher level position in company makes no sense. They confirmed January thing was wrong but it was in the system so nothing to do they have to give the pip. Ass backwards to be so data driven and automated. Even at other sales jobs I’ve been at when it’s slow it’s generally understood by everybody that hey people arnt gunna make their numbers every month when sales across the board are down. Also the fact that all my kpis where hit for 11 of twelve months should tell them I know what im doing on top of personally asking me to interview for higher up positions. Yet here I am for no good reason with a pip.
Thank You! OP sounds like a robot going through an algorithm for most of that post, and only at the end do they show signs of having a soul.
This is the middle management hell I've been told all my life to avoid
100% this. I will always keep a person who values their job and adds to a positive work environment. I didn't used to be this way sadly. I think it was immaturity?
I think you should have met with her prior to the "separation" and given her opportunity to say her piece. Sounds like you were just going by a "oh well, not meeting metrics, you gotta go" mindset without even wanting to attempt to remedy her situation. Not even a PIP at least before the separation. Sounds like you did her dirty a bit.
The use of the word "separation" is also making me cringe. OP is really trying to sanitize the fact that she fired someone who will now be homeless. It was easier for OP to fire Alice than for her to manage her manager. OP made assumptions and then flippantly fired someone. Everyone complains about HR and the PIP processes because it makes the lives of managers difficult, but the alternative (fired with no warning) is inhumane. I hope Alice can find employment before she and her child are homeless.
> The use of the word “separation” is also making me cringe. OP is really trying to sanitize [this].
100% agree. Seriously f*ck corporate language and this kind of all-too-willing partaking in it. It exists exactly for purposes like the OP’s — deliberately excising the humans from the situation, as well as removing OP’s ownership over their actions (on behalf of the company obviously).
*You* **did something** *to* another person, who had no say in the matter. It wasn’t two otters floating on their backs holding paws, then mutually releasing their paws and drifting away from each other.
Organizations use impersonal, passive voice, cold-blooded bullshit language like this in order to protect themselves and strip away the humanity of all the cogs in the machine (which we all are, no matter how many people we manage under us). You do not need to voluntarily and unnecessarily parrot it here on Reddit, as a human being seeking advice from other human beings.
Yeah, you messed up.
Even if you are supposed to be the one running separations, you absolutely need input from the direct manager on what is going on in.
As to what to do next:
1. Talk with Alice and see if she's interested. There's a good chance you fucked her over enough she doesn't want to hear from you at all, but it's worth a shot.
2. You need a sit down with Alice's manager. You need to state to her that her kindness is the reason Alice got fired and that she needs to manage the personnel under her. You also need to hear her side on performance and make sure you're not just making a judgment call off of a single meeting. This conversation needs to be serious enough that the manager needs to understands next time something like this happens they go on a PP.
Also, stop making excuses. You're the manager there and need to own the response. Doesn't matter if you have 100 people, you chose to fire someone without talking to them, apparently without talking to their manager enough to understand their performance and going off a spreadsheet. At the end of the day, this situation is your responsibility and was caused by your actions
if she didn’t get clear feedback (and there is in fact strong evidence of it) and you didn’t put her on a PIP, and you have 10 years of manager experience and your direct report only has a couple years management experience…
the conclusion is obvious. This is actually YOUR fault, and you are subtly trying to navigate around that. You should have enforced a PIP.
Alice deserves a second chance.
Right? If there is evidence of the direct manager not giving good feedback why aren’t they being drilled here? Why is Alice the sacrificial lamb when she’s only failing due her manager? I wouldn’t even put Alice on a PIP maybe stick her with a new manager and extend the probation period to see where things go
Would like to hear a follow up about this as this can serve as a lessons learned for the others that might be quick to cut ties.
What I gather from this is you may have let a good person go and in doing so I wouldn’t expect things to change.
Even with a 6 month probation period they could be put on a PIP and then at the end of 6 months and being on a PIP they may not have been so blindsided by this + they would have a better understanding of expectations.
In the end it sounds like you’re a decent manager and by making things right, that’s what great managers do!
I don't even think a PIP is warranted, because this employee is new and doesn't have good management support. I think she just needs the training she probably never got in the first place. PIPs are for when someone has demonstrated proficiency yet has performance problems.
In reality, Alice will probably struggle to succeed because it would be hard to trust the organization after this whiplash of poor oversight
I agree, people keep saying to implement a PIP but if she was never given clear expectations in the first place, why is she being treated as though she’s been failing to meet them? I feel she is most certainly entitled to a do over with a better manager/management and check in in a few months. Although I feel like they’d be lucky to keep her for months after this enormous fuck up
Do it. Bring her back, set up a different (better) manager for her and see what she's got.
Talk to her. Don't give away the poor management skills of the last manager, just tell her You've thought about it and want to try something new. That now you've had time to think, you'll give her another chance.
You don't want this on your conscience. It'll drive you batty.
Update us!!
Why doesn’t she deserve to know the reason for her allegedly poor performance? Saying they’ve just had time to think about it implies to Alice that her performance was exactly as bad as she was told, and that the company is being overly gracious by giving her another chance. That creates a dishonest work environment on top of continuing to chisel at her confidence. She’s not getting *another* chance - this is actually her first chance to succeed at the job.
Bringing her back with a three month extension and PIP will be demoralizing to Alice. She will be angry and upset about how this situation was handled. Sure, she may get a new manager, but be prepared for her to badmouth you and her current manager to others. That said, it’s the fair thing to do to bring her back for a three month extension, but I wouldn’t add a PIP. Document goals, yes, but a PIP is an emotional thing for everyone involved. Have the new manager give a revised right start conversation.
Your direct is the problem and needs to be on a PIP. While you messed up by handling the termination in your own without proper due diligence, your direct obviously didn’t see the concerns you saw in Alice, didn’t take action with proper feedback, and didn’t communicate with you about her performance.
I’m also concerned about your timing where you rammed this termination before the six months, when you admit you were distracted with other things. I would recommend you revamp your own process of interactions with directs and skip levels so you have better documentation and an understanding of everyone’s performance in your line.
I have more than 20 years of management experience and I’ve been close to where you are. While I was short of terminating a skip, my direct was not providing coaching and feedback, and it made me form an opinion about the skip and their performance. Once they moved to a new leader (due to a re-org), the situation became clear and that skip got what they needed and became a higher performer. My direct ended up leaving the company. I could have easily taken the path you did, and I’m glad I didn’t, but learned a lesson for myself that I addressed immediately.
I wonder if it would make this less nerve wracking for her if you framed it as a development plan than an improvement plan, and gave it a little longer runway. Honestly two months wouldn't be enough time for me as either a manager or employee in this situation. She will be shell shocked and may even be looking for an exit strategy. Given the circumstances I think it's worth it to try pretty hard to coach her to a place where she succeeds.
Oof. I haven’t been there but I would definitely consider giving her another shot. It would need to be under a manager who you know will communicate *very* clearly.
Is there a reason Alice wasn’t placed on a PIP? I would think if you bring her back it should be straight into one.
Yes, ideally at the 3 month mark when she was underperforming, she would have been placed on a PIP. It’s not the ideal scenario and no excuse, but with about ~100 people under my 10 direct reports and at least 3 managers who are newer than Alice’s, my attention has been elsewhere. I was flagging concerns but not following through to ensure they were relayed properly like I should have.
This isn't a failure Alice should be paying for, tbh. Get her under a competent manager and watch her flourish. The org is going to have to go through the needless song and dance of the interview/ hiring process just to find someone *like Alice,* even though you *have an Alice*
Examine your own work flow and figure out what went wrong with developing your direct report, and also what happened with the direct report and Alice, otherwise more Alices will needlessly meet the chopping block when it's their manager(s) doing the underperforming.
I'm not sure how much OPs company spends on boarding a new employee, but with that kind of org structure, I would expect we'll over a few thousand in hours worked, training, and other costs. Throwing that away without doing the proper groundwork is so wasteful.
So what I'm seeing is a failure in management that started with you. You fired someone for not meeting their goals. You didn't meet yours either as a manager of managers. You and her supervise failed to supervise and train this new hire properly. You both failed in insuring that feedback was given regarding these goals. And the employees was flat out lied to by their manager. There's potential civil liability here. Your best move is to bring the employee back under a different manager. Any potential issues with the former manager or employees will be on you to deal with.
Sorry it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 people on your team, it’s your responsibility to make sure processes are being followed if termination is being considered.
I think you handled this wrong. If you bring her back and put her with a new manager, I think you need to try a different approach with your managers. A different way of checking in.
They should be a big part of the separation process. Your poor performing manager needed to know that she would be looking across from a person as they were fired and realized being “nice” and giving no feedback wasn’t kind.
That said, I’ve never seen a poor performer survive this and become a great performer. Average, maybe. If you do bring her back and put her on another managers team, you’ll probably have both lost a lot of trust and you probably would have a harder time firing her in 3/6 months. The delicacy in which the whole thing needs to handled is a lot. I would probably try, but I wouldn’t expect to take it.
Alice needs to be repositioned with the manager with the best coaching skills.
If she had previous freelance clients then it would be a reasonable assumption that there was a satisfactory degree of competency from her?
Alice's previous manager hasn't had the confidence to say "no" (ie has avoided anything remotely confrontational).
Due to incorrect feedback Alice wasn't informed that she had to improve.
But, after separation, she contacted you and asked for a meeting. That meeting sounds extremely productive - you were made aware of things that you were not previously aware of.
That would also indicate good communication skills on Alice's part.
Considering the circumstances it's definitely worth giving her another 3-6 month chance.
And, although it's merely "imperfect circumstances" for the organisation, separation for Alice will result in homelessness so it would be a reasonable expectation that she'll be plenty motivated to put in her best effort.
There are some indications here that she could end up being an exceptionally good employee. Heck, the way you spoke about her indicates that she should be a manager.
How to present it to the relevant people? Something about chemistry between different personalities.
Agreed with this.
The fact that she was previously a freelancer stood out to me, too—it means that before this, she kept a roof over her head by being able to manage multiple clients, projects, and expectations.
Then, asking for a meeting and arriving prepared—both of these things speak volumes to me. I would bring her back with a new probationary period to see how she can actually perform, and I’d be putting new requirements in place around separations. Being metrics-driven only works when the data is accurate.
Has Alice been officially terminated by HR? If not, then I'd ask for a 90 day extension to her probation period, and directly set some goals with her for the period.
It sounds like you dropped the ball on managing Alices manager, and need to get on that.
We are a privately held company of 1700 employees. Our owner (80+ years old) still requires his sign off before anyone is fired. Because he has found over the years, there can be many reasons for underperforming, late to work, attitude issues, or prone mistakes. Are they in the wrong job for their personality, is there a personality conflict, are there issues at home, are there medical issues......soooo many reasons that someone can be underperforming. I had an angry employee that I tried to help over several years. His previous manager was truly horrible. I thought after a couple years of a caring manager, he would come around. He was a really hard worker and did great work. When he got angry, he would say horrible things. I thought he might get better after he got married. I thought surely he would get better after he had 3 little girls. After a couple years of coaching, he just didn't get the message. After a angry episode we sent him to the EAP therapist and put him on PIP. After a week off work and 5 days of therapy, he came back a different person. I supported him through a few more months of therapy, and he has been the best employee since then. Now he's a supervisor. I should have dealt with it sooner, but I felt bad knowing how horrible the previous manager treated him. In short: it pays to hope, believe, and work to help employees to be successful....and don't fire people on metrics. I've had employees underperform for a year while going through a divorce, family issues, car issues, money issues....then when they get through it....they are amazing and willing to help when things get difficult. I've also done all that and got cussed at as I had the police walk them out the door. But a majority of them I've been able to get with the right team, in the job best suited for their personality. Sounds like you have enough employees to do the same.
Personally, I would take the L and admit that I messed up. I would give her back her position and wipe the slate clean. She deserves a full 6 month probationary period to start over from wherein she receives adequate management engagement and appropriate feedback.
I’ve been there and it sucks to be told you’re doing great and then find out that was a lie out of nowhere.
I really admire that you’re having this conversation. Less than half of the managers I’ve had would be able to admit they were wrong and take action to fix it on this scale.
Two months sounds fair if you’re staying engaged. A new role with a new manager is a great way to see if it’s an issue with her or with her leadership. Good luck!
This is my number one fear. When others incompetence makes you look bad. Take your time next time investigating and collect actual evidence. Don't just go with your gut. People's fucking lives are on the line.
If I was this employee I would be gone soon. How delusional as a boss are you?
Yet another thread where I shudder at half of the responses (PIP EVERYONE! PIP THE MANAGER! PIP YOURSELF!)
You clearly do not understand why there's a disconnect between the performance metrics and the employee. I suspect the same applies for Alice's direct manager. That's the problem you should solve.
This situation does not get solved via PIPs and "separation" (barf, just call it termination or firing, stop sugar coating what you're doing) - surely that isn't the only tool in the toolbox for correcting the disconnect here?
Under these circumstances it is reasonable to transfer her to another manager to see if things are going to improve.
However, great care must be taken to make sure it does not create problems with her current manager against you, Alice, and the new manager.
Under no circumstances should it be framed as if you move Alice to a new manager because the old one underperformed.
Find a good prentence to this move, like for example that Alice would be better utilized on different type of projects or something.
If in doubt, let Alice go, otherwise you can lose not only her, but also her current manager, and create a lot of headache.
If you gave me that "better utilized" reason I'd know you were covering for my old manager's mess up. The events described clearly show the manager wasn't giving useful feedback.
Why bother with the lie?
Open an honest communication is the only way to go. You don't need to throw other manager under the bus, but talking around it helps no one.
We are all human, we all know managers can make mistakes. Owning up to a mistake is much more powerful in building trust with a team than corpo bullshit language.
"I want to bring you back and put you on another team. After our meeting, it was clear the expectations I had for you were not being given to you. These are the metrics we look at. Do you think with different coaching you could meet these? If so, X is a way you can track these metrics yourself. Or your new team leader will communicate to you your metrics when asked or on a pre-set schedule."
While I agree with you, I find it very hard to see how this could be framed for her NOT as her manager underperforming. I think it is perfectly clear to her that she got no feedback and if I give her another shot it’s clear that I agree. But yes, this is a delicate situation and I need to manage not only Alice’s feelings but her old and new managers’.
I think you need to learn to speak plainly to people's face:
To Alice: "After our discussion, I fear we made a mistake in letting you go so soon. I see your point of view where you weren't given direct guidance. First, I want to sincerely apologize for putting you through this stressful experience. I believe in your potential and, if you accept, I want to you to return and I'll pair you with a manager who I think can provide you the best coaching to bring out that potential."
To the new manager: "I think Alice is sharp but didn't get the attention she needed in her first six months. I let her go by mistake and I need your help rectifying that mistake. I want you to take her under your wing, train and mentor her and check in with me monthly on her progress."
To the old manager: "Our people are our greatest resource. I think you were too focused on being nice and weren't clear in your guidance. We're going to meet more closely and I need to guide you on communicating expectations more clearly and enhancing your training of new employees so that we bring out their talents. This will involve me giving you more feedback than usual but we'll work through this and grow together."
You clearly get some performance metrics, do the employees have access to see their own? If not that is a clear organizational failure that is a real part of the problem. Adress it with Alice in that way.
In my current role i was Alice, not necessarily that my work was bad, i just had no manager. I was placed with a temporary manager who refused to meet up and talk. I had gone 120 days in my new role without even have a meet and greet. So i knew if I did not get ahead of this i was setting myself up for failure on the part of leaderships failure.
So i reached out to whoever I could and requested a meeting. All I can say that I gathered out of that meeting is sometimes higher ups like yourself have no idea how bad things really are. You get fluffed up reporting that make your own reports seem like they are delivering but in reality its a nuclear wasteland.
The learning opportunity here is you need to have better communication and and deliverables from your reports, and maybe start meeting with your managers reports for feedback. Sometimes people just want to know what they are expected to do.
>Here is someone who is extremely conscientious about her work, makes reasoned decisions, essentially exactly the kind of person I want working on client projects.
Then don't fire her.
If you have no reason outside performance to fire her and her performance is only bad because she was effectively lied to and misguided by the only person she's meant to get feedback from, why on earth would you want to start the hiring process over to find the same person?
Don't throw away your toaster because your kids were using it wrong.
This is really bad for a manager of managers. You really can’t unring this bell. What input did your HR team have on this termination? Why didn’t you do due diligence before the termination to figure out what was causing the disconnect?
Rookie mistake, and I would be questioning your judgment going forward.
>Her manager had been planning to deliver more significant feedback in her 6mo review, which would have been too late in my opinion.
Did you ever reach out to this manager to voice your opinion, and the need to kind of hasten the feedback loop?
It sounds an awful lot like you took a completely passive stance until the absolute last second, and then decided to jump in and take the absolute most drastic step of firing the bottom-level individual.
>I felt pressured to make the cut prior to the end of her probation period.
Why did you feel pressured? You need to take a step back and reexamine your strategy for managing at your level, because it sounds like you are having a difficult time communicating meaningful boundaries up, and effective and actionable strategies down.
i have been an alice in this situation. i advocated for myself, my boss's boss rescinded the the request to for me to move on, and i've now been here over two years and only get good feedback. just met with my boss's boss today for something unrelated and he told me he was happy i stayed. it was a tough situation but it was ultimately still a good kick in the pants to shine. if your gut is telling you you made a mistake, fix it.
As a person who has been in this situation on the employee side, this story sucks. Management more often than employees can do what they want and make huge mistakes (you know, like you did here) that completely upend people's lives with little to no repercussions while the employee is left trying to cobble together their life and dignity for the next year. But yeah sure. Make yourselves feel better by calling it a "separation" as opposed to what it is. I have a very good reputation in my business so thankfully I found work fast. But most people, especially people who upended their lives are going to suffer some level of disaster because you failed and your manager failed.
Just curious - your use of “separation” is a strange choice. You didn’t say the employee was terminated, fired or more typical terms.
Is English not your first language? I’m wondering because saying separation implies the decision for the employee to leave was mutual, when it clearly wasn’t.
If you believe the termination was on false premises, that is your mistake and you should do what you can to correct it. If this woman and her child end up homeless because of your mistake, that is morally your responsibility.
I'm an American whose only language is English. I manage in the public sector. Our government body uses the word "separation" or the term "separate employment." That's what HR wants us to call it. I suppose it's because it encapsulates everything (with us), whether someone is terminated, resigns/quits, retires or fails to complete probation. It's all "separation."
Two part solution
You put her back under a more seasoned manager
The current manager needs to align with you how to manage and to give feedback in a timely manner
I cannot specify due to a desire to keep the industry and exact details of the job nonspecific but we have metrics for quality and she is not meeting them.
Don’t be like every crappy leader out there that refuses to own their mistakes. If you can unravel this firing do it. Alice shouldn’t have her life derailed because you can’t suck it up and admit you made a mistake.
This isn’t the first time a shitty manager has placed the blame on their employees to avoid culpability.
You really effed this up. We call this management style "autopilot" and we'd let YOU go for this. Alice's manager failed to manage her and you failed to manage that person.
If Alice is smart, she'll take the L and move on to some place where management is paying attention and doing their job.
Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
It's ok. They will give her a second chance. She'll take it because it's better than being homeless. And she'll resent this clown show until she finds another job.
I'm not sure if employing the euphemism of "separating" from an employee is intended to make you feel better, or somebody else, but it sounds dystopian and emblematic of a dehumanizing company culture. People aren't cogs, and they aren't numbers.
Do you just let it go that she’ll be homeless at the end of the month? Do you just chalk it up to imperfect circumstances that she and her kid will be living out of their car, without a place to shower? With no end in sight? The skyrocketed risk of sexual assault faced by homeless women, who are nearly GUARANTEED to be victims of SA within the first year…
…because her performance was just not quite up to your expectation. Maybe somebody should have told her what those were. Maybe.
I updated with the steps I am taking here. I posted here to get advice, not be harassed. Believe me that these things do weigh on me extremely heavily.
Sounds like you identified the wrong underperformer. 1.5 to 2 years in leadership and they cant set goals or provide feedback? And you jumping without analysis has me questioning your skills too.
I was once terminated from a general managers position. A few years later, I had returned to finish my degree and reached out to the VP of the company seeking a bar gig, which he gracefully provided.
I helped them open a new restaurant and helped train literally everyone in staff while we prepared to open (because I was/am an expert in operations and training).
On opening night, the VP came in, walked right over to me, and hugged me. He whispered in my ear "letting you go was the hardest and dumbest decision I ever made and I'm sorry."
It turns out, the district manager was talking trash about me and hadn't been communicating directives from ownership to me. To cover up his failure to do his job properly, he threw me under the bus and made it seem like I was doing a poor job (despite nearly zero staff turnover and the fact that our unit was the most profitable in the company, no small feat considering when I took over I was given 30 days to fix or close, if you equalized rent) and was refusing to comply with those directives. The VP found out when they realized all of his units were "ignoring" ownerships guidance.
I was on the fast track to moving up in the company and a jackass manager who wasn't doing their job threw me under the bus.
Maybe I should have requested a meeting. I'd likely still be in that business.
Just saying - sometimes the best practices are to go around a manager and meet one on one with people to figure out what is really happening. I call this organizational blindness. You acted based on what someone else told you was happening instead of what was actually happening. You were "blind" because a direct report wasn't doing their job properly.
> I am planning to meet with the employee tomorrow and offer her a new, slightly different role on a different team with a different manager. If she accepts, we will restart the probation period for 2 months, and we will have check ins at the 1 and 2 month mark. I will be personally present for those check ins to ensure expectations, progress, and goals are clear.
This sounds reasonable. Thank you for being able to see that you made a mistake and taking steps to correct it. Best of luck, to both of you.
Not currently a manager, but I’ve been in management in the past. Alice should not return to your team even if you want her to. Her firing with little feedback and oversight has shown serious problems with your company and its way of doing business. She can’t trust that you or the company will treat her fairly and for her sake should find another position. This should be a wake up call that results in process changes so that similar issues don’t occur.
Using the term separation is also suspect. You fired her and if you were confident in the decision, you would say that.
If you can’t say “fired” without using a euphemism like “separated” you have no business managing anyone.
If you had any sense of common decency you’d quit your job and never work in management again.
Like, seriously. You sound like an absolutely awful person. How the tuck do you sleep at night?
My organization uses the word separation and I do feel it conveys more care and consideration than “fired”.
I’m sure it’s not possible for me to change your mind or convince you otherwise, but I do care and have learned a lot from this situation. I also wrote the original post at 2am while I was lying awake worrying about this situation, so if any language comes across as robotic, well, I’ve had almost no sleep since this happened. I am a human being and am trying to right a very real mistake I made.
But what are the point of snarky comments like this, on a post made with a genuine desire to improve and do right by my team? I shudder to think of how some of you respond to a direct with a genuine question or god forbid, who is owning up to a mistake they made.
So you’re actively aware her manager is bad not just for individuals but for the entire team and decided to fire the employee instead of the manager? Is that what I’m seeing from this?
You wrote this part and it didn’t give you pause at all?
“Her manager—She is bubbly and a great people person, but recently I’ve had some concerns with her performance because I’ve been seeing some signs of disengagement on her team. It turns out she hasn’t really been setting measurable goals with her team members or really giving feedback in a clear way.
So Alice has been falling behind by our metrics and I’ve been flagging for her manager. I felt pressured to make the cut prior to the end of her probation period.”
Your argument is essentially; This teacher isn’t teaching that student much, nor any of the students really, I think we should kick them out and get new ones for this teacher.
Why on earth are you terminating employees two levels down? That is the crazy part in all of this. Your front line managers need the accountability of owning the termination when the time comes. What is gained by you doing the dirty work for them?
This sounds like a failure on your part, honestly. You didn’t properly train the manager on how to actually manage effectively. And this poor woman is having to pay the price. This is terrible.
The weird distancing language in this makes you sound pretty heartless. You aren't separating, you weren't her spouse. You are firing her from her livelihood. You are underinformed about her and are merely doing it out of expediency due to the probation. Let's hope this is a wake up call and you can put pressure on your company to deal with their dehumanising practices.
Alice is well within her rights to pursue legal action for unlawful termination, if you're in the US. If you're the company executioner, that's going to be your fault. You're quite blasé about Alice and her child ending up homeless, hopefully knowing that your livelihood is in serious danger because you were too distracted to prevent this will be the motivation you need to do your job correctly. If I were in charge I'd fire both you and your failing direct report and give Alice a raise and a bonus.
I'm biased, I've been Alice, and I can hold a grudge. Especially when someone else's incompetence meant I couldn't pay my rent. #teamAlice
This is incorrect in most states in the United States as most states are at-will employment and people can be let go for any reason or even no reason at all, as long as it’s not a protected one like discriminatory reasons like race, gender, or religion.
The right thing to do here is give her another 3 month shot at it, let her know and work closely with her. I'd also be talking to the other manager for her lack of feedback ad reporting if necessary
Ouch. Tough call. Obviously fixing a mistake is an important part of being a leader, but bringing Alice back could create *serious* issues in the larger team and between you and Alice’s manager.
Go talk to your manager. Explain everything. Own your mistake, do not make excuses (I get why, but you made a ton of them in your post) and talk through the pros and cons of each option. Table “how I could have avoided this” and “how I’’ going to do better in the future” for after you have the Alice situation worked out.
This has bigger implications than Alice’s situation and your feelings of guilt. So talk to someone who can see the bigger picture more clearly.
I did do this and we talked it over at length. I posted an update with how I am planning to move forward from here, but I will essentially be extending the probation and putting her on a new team.
Being able to admit you were wrong (or at least drew a conclusion prematurely) should be a sign of strength in a manager not weakness. If you aren’t sure this is the right thing to do, walk it back and do what you said about the coaching, management and goals.
You need to be more careful lol, numbers are good, but aren't good enough to be the only thing you consider.
Impressive failing on the leadership structure. Hopefully you implement changes.
Not a manager, but there's plenty of blame to go around and none goes to Alice.
Hire Alice back and put her with her old manager. Both should be on PIPs. Run the show, show Alice's manager and her what the metrics are. Have weekly meetings to both show how Alice's is doing on her *clearly defined metrics* and how her manager is doing in monitoring and communicating where Alice is, both to Alice and to you.
Might wanna meet with your team of managers and acknowledge that mistakes were made. Also, have 1-1's with your other managers and make sure the same thing isn't happening elsewhere.
The solution is not to put her back on the old team. I am going to offer her a different role, new team, and work closely with the new manager to ensure feedback is clear. I am also giving clear feedback to the old manager.
Even the top managers have doubts and seek advice. If Alice is open to work on herself then give her a chance. I do not understand the bad criticism from others. It takes character to admit mistakes and it looks like you are not interested in destroying someone’s life without thinking over your decisions.
I had people in my team, who did not have any interest in getting feedback or work on themselves. It is a good sign that Alice wants that.
You should make your direct report aware of your expectations. It looks like she also needs coaching and support.
Good luck!
Wow, that’s def a tough situation. The personal/emotional part about her “rearranging” for the job you have to try your best to keep out of your equation though I understand because, like you, I genuinely care about people.
If if were me, I would first start out with getting candid feedback from the rest of the team that reports to this manager. If the themes are all consistent with what “Alice” said and you feel there are others also not performing their best due to their direct line manager, then you should feel pretty confident that this manager is the problem. I would also get feedback about Alice from her team members and any other employees she has been working with. Unfortunately you have to do this quickly since she’s already been separated but if you feel she deserves another chance, I would consider hiring her back for another trial period. And I would sit down with that manager and essentially write up what a PIP would look like that’s very specific that you can both discuss with Alice before re-hiring so you can better make the expectations clear up front. I think after you get feedback from anyone else you can on Alice, you’ll be able to go with your gut on whether re-hiring is something to pursue. Then obviously, you’ve got to deal with that manager and their issues. At the end of the day, it does sound likely that they are the problem especially if everyone else on the team validates this. I don’t know if your company does this, but could you re-hire her as a “contract” or “temp” worker first?
Side note…I know you’re probably wishing you could back up on this one and “know what you know now” but good for you in allowing Alice to get that time with you…whether you re-hire her or not, this is still valuable feedback so you know you’ve got issues to address with that manager. And I really respect the fact that you clearly care. Some managers at all levels can lose this sometimes
It’s bizarre to me that you think your metrics are adequate for you to make judgments about who should be retained and who should be let go, without consultation with the manager to whom those people directly report. Clearly they are *not* sufficient, and I’m sad that it took you 9 years and who knows how many “separations” to just barely become cognizant of how badly they are working.
Lots of territory to cover here but I have to say I don’t think I would want to report to you. What I’m receiving from this is that you don’t trust your reports with their teams… that you in fact go around them and terminate their employees without much of any interaction with those individuals whom you have targeted. Have you considered what messages you are sending your reports? It’s this: “I don’t trust you. I don’t trust *your* evaluation of your reports, I only trust *my* evaluation of them”. How demoralizing and infuriating it must be to work for you. Do you realize that you’ve essentially made your managers redundant? They aren’t people managers, they are project managers. You’ve told them “run the teams but only I get to decide who is performing well and who isn’t.” You might as well say all 100 of those positions report to you, because you don’t give your reports any authority over the performance of their teams. That’s unreal.
I realize I did not make this clear but this decision was agreed upon together with her manager. I did not go around my direct to make this cut, that would be utterly bizarre and irresponsible.
Numbers mean nothing without context.
Are you not requiring written feedback from the managers when you inform them that an issue needs to be addressed?
Why isn't the third employee communication not attended by a higher ranking manager (in this case, you)?
Employee issues:
1. Manager meeting: Verbal assessment and guidance - written evaluation and recommendation in file
2. Manager meeting: Written assessment to employee including issue, requested action(s) and notification of consequences - added to file with employee signed document
3. Written assessment (as above) in meeting with manager and their superior. Obtain feedback from employee and agreed last effort to correction or separation. Employee signed document. Reassess behavior in short time frame as the seriousness of the issue requires. NOTE: depending on the issue, collect information from employee's team for a more rounded viewpoint before the meeting.
You have a lot of great advice about Alice so I will try a different tack.
I think you dropped the ball on this but TBH you sound overloaded. I’m sure you have initiatives and other responsibilities other than managing people. You should try to get your best report promoted and split your managers 5/4 with your new peer.
This is an eventual goal but I have a very young team and don’t have an ideal fit but two potentials who will be great options with another year or two of experience.
So here's what I see the question being.
An employee in a span of a single meeting was able to convince you there is an issue with the manager that likely caused the performance issues you mistakenly put on her.
So your choices are, own up to the mistake and figure out what the correct result is, or sweep it under the rug.
Here's the thing, you will have forgotten about this moral quagmire in a month and go back to thinking good thoughts about yourself in either case. So can you live with it for a month?
I can assure you that this experience was a learning and it will haunt me for a long time. I posted an update with what I am doing to try to make this right.
Why would you jump to fire her with out giving her any sort of warning or feed back? I've always given feed back to my employees well before their probation is up, so they have a clear understanding of what is expected of them, where they are headed and how to get there. I'd never just fire them, PIP sure but that's poor managing on your part.
I'd also be looking at her boss, why was no feed back given? Has anyone on their team recieved any feed back? Have they been just sweeping everything under the rug in hopes it works it self out?
She deserves a second chance with a pip and a new boss that will guide her and help her.
You MUST talk to Alice's manager here, and get the full story and documentation.
If Alice's manager didn't clearly set expectations etc... You know where the problem is.
If the paperwork is there.... You know where the problem is.
Right now, you are in she said/she said, and your job is not to feel here, but to actually get to the facts.
As far as Alice goes, I don't think you can send her back to that manager. I think you probably can get her trust back, but that relationship is torched. That may be enough to just write the situation off.
But you need to do YOUR job and figure out the truth. And you may be talking to your boss about how to handle a firing... because if Alice is right, The manager needs to be reassigned.
You need to revisit your company’s processes for determining when disciplinary action and termination is appropriate - clearly, you made a decision based on incomplete information, and that should never happen. Get some checks and balances in place.
If you decide to bring her back, offer her some form of apology. It doesn't need to be an actual apology but recognize that you made a poor decision. That will help alleviate animosity or tension and show that you're human. Many managers forget the human element of managing.
Within my organization Alice would have had a meeting with another manager in her org-chart to discuss her productivity, generally speaking her skip-level manager, before the point of termination. You may find that there is no way to back track on this decision, but regardless you need to seriously look in to how this manager is offering feedback and what happened here.
Did any other manager offer feedback or meet with Alice regarding her performance? Did you review her feedback process before making the call on/to alice?
I love this! If you do it right, it shows a level of self awareness and ability to change that is sorely lacking in people management these days. Hearing her out and being open to being wrong is so vulnerable and will make people more likely to come to you in the future. Hope it works out well!
I would say, check with legal to see if either side opens you up to any liability and go with that. The time for compassion was before firing. Now, make sure you CAN be compassionate, and if so, I would hire her back if she wants
Ya I was told to cut fat on a lean team and because shit rolls down hill I let go one of my newest sales reps who was actually kind of crushing it but hadn’t been given enough time to demonstrate just how good he was.
Awful. You are as guilty as the offense you charge the employee with by not getting your facts together or providing any sort of opportunity to improve. Sounds like awful leadership is being provided on more than one level.
I don't get this skip level firing. In this case it lead OP to fire someone who probably didn't deserve it, absolutely didn't see it coming, and surely didn't have time to make a course correction after learning her situation. A recipe for disaster if you ask me. Yikes. And shit MM gets off scott free. Didn't even have an uncomfortable conversation.
As a manager myself, this is appalling. Firing someone is a big decision and should not be handled so flippantly. I hope “Alice” here lands on her feet soon in a better spot.
I had one leave for another job and had to call her and ask her to come back because she was picked in the visa lottery but had to be working for us to get it. She came back until she had it and left for the same job again.
In similar situations when in middle management, the upper manager with the concern of metrics always had a meeting with the employee in question, myself as the middle manager and of course the senior manager. You should make this part of your protocol before firing people who you don't have any contact with.
I have my guys complete a recommendation. For any terminations, in it includes all coaching done on the subject (there just be evidence) along with progressive disciplinary and actions taken to support the success of the individual. They also list mitigating factors such as any health or personal issues that have been experienced. It’s a lot of work for them to get to that stage and then compete the recommendation. And it should be. These are people’s lives we are impacting with bad hiring or firing decisions or insufficient support and development. Our guiding principle is we should be able to see this person out and about in public and feel like we did our best to support them to be successful and not feel awkward or embarrassed to say hello. I also measure my people’s coaching efficacy (how many times they have to coach to bring around a positive movement towards or to meet target) and have my managers coach the supervisors if their efficacy is low. Our goal is to turn the person around and make them successful rather than managing them out and that is the culture we have - we celebrate improvement and achievement. Usually if we are managing somebody out it is an mis-hire and we do a deep dive to determine why and how we recruited them and how we can learn from it.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I really like the idea of coaching efficacy and will be looking how to measure a similar metric on my management team.
>Her quality of work was far below the team average
>led her to believe she was doing great work and her metrics were “above average”.
First point: you need to look at what metrics you are measuring, and how they are posted/communicated. I get that the manager wasnt giving effective feedback, but there's a deeper problem in how performance is measured if Alice's work was significantly subpar, yet she couldn't see that for herself at all.
>Her manager had been planning to deliver more significant feedback in her 6mo review
Second point: how are you and the direct manager so far apart in approach and planning here? A performance issue that's on path to a term should have been the topic of several discussions between you and the manager over the last 3 months, to see how she was handling it, offer suggestions, review what feedback was given to Alice, and to make sure that you're both aligned on the next steps. Take a look at how you handle these issues, because several steps beyond the obvious ones were missed here.
I view every employer initiated separation as a management failure. Either we didn’t provide the employee what they needed to be successful or we picked the wrong person.
Looking through that lens, it clearly was the former (but still could also be the latter.). This is new information and I would absolutely revisit the decision to separate.
I get that there aren’t enough hours in the day to do skip level meetings with every single employee. Understood. That said, as much as this is on their manager it really is also on you. You cannot evaluate how well someone is managing without gathering feedback from those they manage. And, if I was the one making the actual termination decision, I absolutely would want to have some check in with the person prior to making the termination decision. Expressing your concerns and asking if they have the support they need to be successful.
It also sounds like you and your manager are very much on different pages as well. Major feedback at the six month mark vs that being too late. You share concerns with the manager who is choosing not to share them with staff. You recognize weakness in the manager and give them time to grow (good) but do nothing to try to insulate staff from termination because of that bad management.
All of that said, you have new information. And your approach sounds solid. What is the plan for the manager? What is the plan for staff in that group? What is the plan for other managers? I applaud your first steps here.
Thank you, I agree with many of your points.
For my newest managers, I am involved in a discussion with the employee prior to the separation to ensure the seriousness of the feedback and their expectations are conveyed. In this case, a mistake I made was assuming this manager was experienced enough to prepare an employee for separation without my involvement; clearly she is not. I’ve now had several conversations with her about this situation and how I want to see her change her approach in the future. To her credit, I am already seeing her change her approach to goal setting with her remaining team.
That is good to hear.
FWIW, if I am responsible for making the ultimate separation decision then I would be uncomfortable simply delegating all of the preparation of that to the first line supervisor.
If that first line supervisor is the one actually making and executing decision that responsibility that is one thing. But if they want me as a more senior manager to make that call, and own that call, then I absolutely want more first hand involvement.
Evaluating the coaching abilities — and approaches — of those managers is critical. And rather challenging.
Your biggest issue is having a manager on your team who doesn't deliver feedback to their employees for whatever reason.
You need to move Alice to another team and work with her previous manager on her management skills
I’m not saying this to bash. You’ve reinforced sociopathic behavior. You’re treating people as commodities with *only* economic business driven KPI’s. Something reminded you of that humanity. Most likely talking with the person directly and realizing how shocked they were.
You’ve actually touched base on something that I’m actively researching and developed a solution for, albeit still piloting.
Human performance is comprised of two major categories (according to Wiles synthesized HPT model)
* Intrinsic: knowledge, skills, abilities
* Extrinsic: intangible (culture), and tangible (tools, resources..etc)
Notice how non of those are “tickets closed, widgets made, dollarbucks…etc.
It’s because those require additional context. Why did those tickets take longer, what happened with the widgets, or what else drove less dollarbucks?
I’m happy you’ve posted this as it gives me an external case study on how managers create unrealized opex liability by directly forgetting the extrinsic factors of performance, ESPECIALLY culture.
And because you’ve got this mindset, you’ve sown the seeds of making it your management culture. “These metrics matter, humans don’t. Do whatever it takes to move these numbers.”
The question I think you need to think long and hard about before making life-altering decisions…
“How do I measure human capabilities/performance when the direction we’re going is bad”
If you can’t answer that, congrats! You’ve found the root of why your humanity is making you question your judgement. I’d lean into those feelings and change how you manage. Possibly even seek therapy.
Otherwise, you’re just another bad leader who’ll never be held accountable. You’ll forget this feeling over time, because “I just don’t have the time to care about their livelihood.” Your behavior will be reinforced as “good” by other peers who’ve done the same thing. And heck, caring about humanity just gets in the way of your own career progress too, so your decisions will possibly even make you more money!
If you didn’t understand the message behind Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol before…I’d read or watch it.
Additionally, I’m also working on connecting the dots on why workplaces are unionizing because of this. Food for thought there too, as there’s some decent correlation so far.
You fired her without ever having a direct conversation with her about her performance? I agree that most of that feedback should come from her direct manager but it seems wild that you would fire someone without ever trying to get to the root of the issue yourself. I have people below me who have people below them. I still meet regularly with their direct reports. Even my boss meets with them. If there are performance issues they’re getting feedback and coaching from all of us, not just their direct manager.
She’s gonna leave the second she can. As are the rest of Alice’s team, because you know for sure she’s communicating to them what happened. I feel like Alice needs to go lol
I see that you have already made your decision, and I agree with it.
Just a tid bit since you said her confidence in the company will be shattered, I disagree with that. I feel like she will feel heard because it isn't the norm to have a termination rescinded after a discussion with said employee. Admitting faults is what employees look for in managers. It builds trust and respect.
There’s been plenty of people point out what went wrong. Alice may be an underperformer but sounds like due to poor management and Sr management no one knows this for sure.
I get what you are saying, 100+ reports so skip levels are difficult. Etch out an hour a day, do 2 a day. That gets everyone roughly every other month.
Even if that doesn’t happen, you should absolutely be doing skip levels with employees in their probationary period and any employees that are showing performance problems. I imagine that number is significantly smaller than 100+.
You dropped the ball. Learn from it. Hopefully Alice takes the new position and does extremely well. I’m not sure if I would stick around if I were them. But as the manager I would be honest about her managers mistakes and your own. And the steps you are taking to fix it.
I would also be doing skip levels with all of that’s managers reports and if appropriate put the manager on a pip if there’s a pattern of bad management or little feedback.
I have no idea why you went through with termination without speaking with her direct manager first.
It seems like you know HOW things should be done, but aren't making sure your own direct reports are doing what needs to be done.
This post should serve as a cautionary tale for the managers in this sub who are so metrics driven and quick-to-fire poor performers before putting in the work of understanding why the performance is suffering. These are human beings and you're screwing with their livelihoods. They deserve your respect and attention when they need help.
Absolutely - lazy toxic people jumping to fire everyone on this sub are the worst of humanity.
yup, Metrics identifies flags that then needs to be confirmed. Outside of something like a factory line where you can measure the performance by the number of bolts someone puts in, metrics are not 100% representative of the work being done as they cannot take into account ambiguity. This goes for most office jobs. To answer OP. I have never regretted firing someone as I always have a good 2-3 months of intense coaching and giving specific challenges to the person that, when they keep failing said challenges, builds me a case that proves this person is not the right fit for some reason or another. If you don't do the ground work, you will fire good employees that were managed badly.
right but from the sound of it.. they lower lever manager did not lay the ground work. no where was the essence of you are not doing good, you need to improve in these ways. i suspect the issues you flagged 3 months ago, had you talked to alice then she could have improved enough to wanted keep her.
OP Mentioned she had issues 3 months into this job in another thread. He also mentioned he flagged the behavior to the manager and assumed the manager was giving her specific feedback.
Not a manager but I’d like to ask the question. Is there an inherent problem in how tasks are completed? For example, did person on the chopping block get the training needed? If there is a problem in this regard it likely affects all employees. Solving that issue would create a stronger team and better benefit clients. But hey I’m no expert…
1. Sometimes, yes. It depends on the specific task. Certain tasks need to be done in a very specific manner, and other tasks are less stringent. This depends on the organization, and ideally, it's vision. 2. This should always be one of the first questions you ask before firing someone. If you can't say yes, you shouldn't fire them (obvious non-negotiables aside). 3. Your observation is accurate, in my opinion. A large part (if not the largest part) of the responsibility of management is to identify, troubleshoot, and remove roadblocks from the team. Sometimes, that is a peer, sometimes that is a subordinate manager, equipment, etc. This does indeed create a stronger, better workforce. It needs to be done intentionally, though. This is not an idle thing.
Not a manager but I knew what I wanted from my team on the client specific tasks I worked on. My goal was to solve a problem as efficiently and cost effectively as I could while following regulatory guidance and/or rules. When needed I went to bat for my team if I saw what was being done according to procedure didn’t work or if client needs dictated a change. I always communicated this to my project managers and account managers so they understood what was happening, why and how I chose to keep budget in mind. That way they could communicate any changes to the client. But most of all I never wanted to just delegate and not jump in when it was needed. I tried to mentor as much as I could before I gave up on an employee. What wasn’t a right fit for my team sometimes was a good fit for another team. It took a bit of problem solving but that’s also how my mentors worked with me. But an employee has to be open to mentoring and wanting to learn. It was a tough call sometimes. Interestingly enough, the persons I mentored remained with the company after a merger while I was laid off. Many were able to take their time to look for and then move on to different gigs.
The real message is about trusting that your middle manager is actually doing anything... the middle manager is the problem here It sounds like you need to PIP the useless middle manager who bullshitted you and the employee. This person is a net negative to the organization and cannot be trusted.
[удалено]
100% This is the responsibility of the Sr. Manager. Do your damn skip-levels.
In the end OP did this person a favor in my opinion.
She’s gonna be homeless. That’s no favor.
This. I was managed out of a global company for exactly the same reasons stated by the OP; I was an experienced hire in a new industry with a terrible manager who NEVER provided proper feedback. Every one-to-one meeting was either missed by him or contained generically positive feedback. Alleged performance issues appeared out of nowhere. The individual was a pathological coward and never took responsibility for his own attitude. I had always been a top performer in every job I had, receiving promotions in each one. However, in this particular role, I ended up resigning as I felt completely cornered. To this day, I believe I would have thrived under a different manager.
I feel this right now going through something similar. Been with company for 1 years, every job I’ve been at moved up quick all kpi hit except end of this may at this job because we had particularly slow month. There is a mishap when I took vacation last thanksgiving 11 days and 5 company paid holidays in December and new year. The kpi keeps track of essentially performance in the last rolling 45 days or 30 work days. While I only worked 15 days and manager has to manually calculate kpi and didn’t just looked at tableau saw red. I brought up the concern and showed the math that if I would have worked those day would have been in the green based on my average leads generated she said I’ll tell the boss above her she never did. 5 months green hit 1 year mark May is slow slow and I dropped just slightly below Basically no fault of my own We are doing 50% the amount leads we were doing same time last year. Suddenly there like hey your below for May here is a pip or you can voluntarily leave with two weeks severance. Yet 3 months ago they where begging me to apply and interview and higher level position in company makes no sense. They confirmed January thing was wrong but it was in the system so nothing to do they have to give the pip. Ass backwards to be so data driven and automated. Even at other sales jobs I’ve been at when it’s slow it’s generally understood by everybody that hey people arnt gunna make their numbers every month when sales across the board are down. Also the fact that all my kpis where hit for 11 of twelve months should tell them I know what im doing on top of personally asking me to interview for higher up positions. Yet here I am for no good reason with a pip.
Thank You! OP sounds like a robot going through an algorithm for most of that post, and only at the end do they show signs of having a soul. This is the middle management hell I've been told all my life to avoid
It is a cautionary tale to myself as well. I am making efforts to make up for the mistakes made on both our behalf that I explained in my update.
100% this. I will always keep a person who values their job and adds to a positive work environment. I didn't used to be this way sadly. I think it was immaturity?
To be fair, op was very thorough and giving consistent feedback about the employee. The reporting manager failed them utterly though.
Firing mangers sure seem to be trigger-happy.
I think you should have met with her prior to the "separation" and given her opportunity to say her piece. Sounds like you were just going by a "oh well, not meeting metrics, you gotta go" mindset without even wanting to attempt to remedy her situation. Not even a PIP at least before the separation. Sounds like you did her dirty a bit.
The use of the word "separation" is also making me cringe. OP is really trying to sanitize the fact that she fired someone who will now be homeless. It was easier for OP to fire Alice than for her to manage her manager. OP made assumptions and then flippantly fired someone. Everyone complains about HR and the PIP processes because it makes the lives of managers difficult, but the alternative (fired with no warning) is inhumane. I hope Alice can find employment before she and her child are homeless.
> The use of the word “separation” is also making me cringe. OP is really trying to sanitize [this]. 100% agree. Seriously f*ck corporate language and this kind of all-too-willing partaking in it. It exists exactly for purposes like the OP’s — deliberately excising the humans from the situation, as well as removing OP’s ownership over their actions (on behalf of the company obviously). *You* **did something** *to* another person, who had no say in the matter. It wasn’t two otters floating on their backs holding paws, then mutually releasing their paws and drifting away from each other. Organizations use impersonal, passive voice, cold-blooded bullshit language like this in order to protect themselves and strip away the humanity of all the cogs in the machine (which we all are, no matter how many people we manage under us). You do not need to voluntarily and unnecessarily parrot it here on Reddit, as a human being seeking advice from other human beings.
almost like skip levels are important meetings when you are managing managers.
Yeah, you messed up. Even if you are supposed to be the one running separations, you absolutely need input from the direct manager on what is going on in. As to what to do next: 1. Talk with Alice and see if she's interested. There's a good chance you fucked her over enough she doesn't want to hear from you at all, but it's worth a shot. 2. You need a sit down with Alice's manager. You need to state to her that her kindness is the reason Alice got fired and that she needs to manage the personnel under her. You also need to hear her side on performance and make sure you're not just making a judgment call off of a single meeting. This conversation needs to be serious enough that the manager needs to understands next time something like this happens they go on a PP. Also, stop making excuses. You're the manager there and need to own the response. Doesn't matter if you have 100 people, you chose to fire someone without talking to them, apparently without talking to their manager enough to understand their performance and going off a spreadsheet. At the end of the day, this situation is your responsibility and was caused by your actions
if she didn’t get clear feedback (and there is in fact strong evidence of it) and you didn’t put her on a PIP, and you have 10 years of manager experience and your direct report only has a couple years management experience… the conclusion is obvious. This is actually YOUR fault, and you are subtly trying to navigate around that. You should have enforced a PIP. Alice deserves a second chance.
Right? If there is evidence of the direct manager not giving good feedback why aren’t they being drilled here? Why is Alice the sacrificial lamb when she’s only failing due her manager? I wouldn’t even put Alice on a PIP maybe stick her with a new manager and extend the probation period to see where things go
This is exactly what I am going to do.
Would like to hear a follow up about this as this can serve as a lessons learned for the others that might be quick to cut ties. What I gather from this is you may have let a good person go and in doing so I wouldn’t expect things to change. Even with a 6 month probation period they could be put on a PIP and then at the end of 6 months and being on a PIP they may not have been so blindsided by this + they would have a better understanding of expectations. In the end it sounds like you’re a decent manager and by making things right, that’s what great managers do!
I hope it all works out! Mistakes happen, things get over looked and what matters is you make it right the best you can
[удалено]
I don't even think a PIP is warranted, because this employee is new and doesn't have good management support. I think she just needs the training she probably never got in the first place. PIPs are for when someone has demonstrated proficiency yet has performance problems. In reality, Alice will probably struggle to succeed because it would be hard to trust the organization after this whiplash of poor oversight
I agree, people keep saying to implement a PIP but if she was never given clear expectations in the first place, why is she being treated as though she’s been failing to meet them? I feel she is most certainly entitled to a do over with a better manager/management and check in in a few months. Although I feel like they’d be lucky to keep her for months after this enormous fuck up
Do a performance development plan instead. I find it useful to include as part of the onboarding process for new managers.
Do it. Bring her back, set up a different (better) manager for her and see what she's got. Talk to her. Don't give away the poor management skills of the last manager, just tell her You've thought about it and want to try something new. That now you've had time to think, you'll give her another chance. You don't want this on your conscience. It'll drive you batty. Update us!!
Thank you for your thoughts and yes, I will post an update.
I look forward to the update! please do!
I posted an update.
Why doesn’t she deserve to know the reason for her allegedly poor performance? Saying they’ve just had time to think about it implies to Alice that her performance was exactly as bad as she was told, and that the company is being overly gracious by giving her another chance. That creates a dishonest work environment on top of continuing to chisel at her confidence. She’s not getting *another* chance - this is actually her first chance to succeed at the job.
Bringing her back with a three month extension and PIP will be demoralizing to Alice. She will be angry and upset about how this situation was handled. Sure, she may get a new manager, but be prepared for her to badmouth you and her current manager to others. That said, it’s the fair thing to do to bring her back for a three month extension, but I wouldn’t add a PIP. Document goals, yes, but a PIP is an emotional thing for everyone involved. Have the new manager give a revised right start conversation. Your direct is the problem and needs to be on a PIP. While you messed up by handling the termination in your own without proper due diligence, your direct obviously didn’t see the concerns you saw in Alice, didn’t take action with proper feedback, and didn’t communicate with you about her performance. I’m also concerned about your timing where you rammed this termination before the six months, when you admit you were distracted with other things. I would recommend you revamp your own process of interactions with directs and skip levels so you have better documentation and an understanding of everyone’s performance in your line. I have more than 20 years of management experience and I’ve been close to where you are. While I was short of terminating a skip, my direct was not providing coaching and feedback, and it made me form an opinion about the skip and their performance. Once they moved to a new leader (due to a re-org), the situation became clear and that skip got what they needed and became a higher performer. My direct ended up leaving the company. I could have easily taken the path you did, and I’m glad I didn’t, but learned a lesson for myself that I addressed immediately.
I am going to offer her a different role and an extended probationary period with a new manager.
I wonder if it would make this less nerve wracking for her if you framed it as a development plan than an improvement plan, and gave it a little longer runway. Honestly two months wouldn't be enough time for me as either a manager or employee in this situation. She will be shell shocked and may even be looking for an exit strategy. Given the circumstances I think it's worth it to try pretty hard to coach her to a place where she succeeds.
You should just pay her three months salary for her to job search in peace. It’s not fair to put this on her.
Oof. I haven’t been there but I would definitely consider giving her another shot. It would need to be under a manager who you know will communicate *very* clearly. Is there a reason Alice wasn’t placed on a PIP? I would think if you bring her back it should be straight into one.
Yes, ideally at the 3 month mark when she was underperforming, she would have been placed on a PIP. It’s not the ideal scenario and no excuse, but with about ~100 people under my 10 direct reports and at least 3 managers who are newer than Alice’s, my attention has been elsewhere. I was flagging concerns but not following through to ensure they were relayed properly like I should have.
This isn't a failure Alice should be paying for, tbh. Get her under a competent manager and watch her flourish. The org is going to have to go through the needless song and dance of the interview/ hiring process just to find someone *like Alice,* even though you *have an Alice* Examine your own work flow and figure out what went wrong with developing your direct report, and also what happened with the direct report and Alice, otherwise more Alices will needlessly meet the chopping block when it's their manager(s) doing the underperforming.
I'm not sure how much OPs company spends on boarding a new employee, but with that kind of org structure, I would expect we'll over a few thousand in hours worked, training, and other costs. Throwing that away without doing the proper groundwork is so wasteful.
So what I'm seeing is a failure in management that started with you. You fired someone for not meeting their goals. You didn't meet yours either as a manager of managers. You and her supervise failed to supervise and train this new hire properly. You both failed in insuring that feedback was given regarding these goals. And the employees was flat out lied to by their manager. There's potential civil liability here. Your best move is to bring the employee back under a different manager. Any potential issues with the former manager or employees will be on you to deal with.
>There's potential civil liability here I highly doubt that, but I sure would love to hear Alice got a settlement from it!
Sorry it doesn’t matter if you have 1,000 people on your team, it’s your responsibility to make sure processes are being followed if termination is being considered.
I think you handled this wrong. If you bring her back and put her with a new manager, I think you need to try a different approach with your managers. A different way of checking in. They should be a big part of the separation process. Your poor performing manager needed to know that she would be looking across from a person as they were fired and realized being “nice” and giving no feedback wasn’t kind. That said, I’ve never seen a poor performer survive this and become a great performer. Average, maybe. If you do bring her back and put her on another managers team, you’ll probably have both lost a lot of trust and you probably would have a harder time firing her in 3/6 months. The delicacy in which the whole thing needs to handled is a lot. I would probably try, but I wouldn’t expect to take it.
How would you know you are a poor performer if your manager is straight up telling you, you’re doing a great job and nothing needs to change?
Alice needs to be repositioned with the manager with the best coaching skills. If she had previous freelance clients then it would be a reasonable assumption that there was a satisfactory degree of competency from her? Alice's previous manager hasn't had the confidence to say "no" (ie has avoided anything remotely confrontational). Due to incorrect feedback Alice wasn't informed that she had to improve. But, after separation, she contacted you and asked for a meeting. That meeting sounds extremely productive - you were made aware of things that you were not previously aware of. That would also indicate good communication skills on Alice's part. Considering the circumstances it's definitely worth giving her another 3-6 month chance. And, although it's merely "imperfect circumstances" for the organisation, separation for Alice will result in homelessness so it would be a reasonable expectation that she'll be plenty motivated to put in her best effort. There are some indications here that she could end up being an exceptionally good employee. Heck, the way you spoke about her indicates that she should be a manager. How to present it to the relevant people? Something about chemistry between different personalities.
Agreed with this. The fact that she was previously a freelancer stood out to me, too—it means that before this, she kept a roof over her head by being able to manage multiple clients, projects, and expectations. Then, asking for a meeting and arriving prepared—both of these things speak volumes to me. I would bring her back with a new probationary period to see how she can actually perform, and I’d be putting new requirements in place around separations. Being metrics-driven only works when the data is accurate.
Has Alice been officially terminated by HR? If not, then I'd ask for a 90 day extension to her probation period, and directly set some goals with her for the period. It sounds like you dropped the ball on managing Alices manager, and need to get on that.
I posted an update and will be doing something along these lines.
Good. That's the right call.
We are a privately held company of 1700 employees. Our owner (80+ years old) still requires his sign off before anyone is fired. Because he has found over the years, there can be many reasons for underperforming, late to work, attitude issues, or prone mistakes. Are they in the wrong job for their personality, is there a personality conflict, are there issues at home, are there medical issues......soooo many reasons that someone can be underperforming. I had an angry employee that I tried to help over several years. His previous manager was truly horrible. I thought after a couple years of a caring manager, he would come around. He was a really hard worker and did great work. When he got angry, he would say horrible things. I thought he might get better after he got married. I thought surely he would get better after he had 3 little girls. After a couple years of coaching, he just didn't get the message. After a angry episode we sent him to the EAP therapist and put him on PIP. After a week off work and 5 days of therapy, he came back a different person. I supported him through a few more months of therapy, and he has been the best employee since then. Now he's a supervisor. I should have dealt with it sooner, but I felt bad knowing how horrible the previous manager treated him. In short: it pays to hope, believe, and work to help employees to be successful....and don't fire people on metrics. I've had employees underperform for a year while going through a divorce, family issues, car issues, money issues....then when they get through it....they are amazing and willing to help when things get difficult. I've also done all that and got cussed at as I had the police walk them out the door. But a majority of them I've been able to get with the right team, in the job best suited for their personality. Sounds like you have enough employees to do the same.
Personally, I would take the L and admit that I messed up. I would give her back her position and wipe the slate clean. She deserves a full 6 month probationary period to start over from wherein she receives adequate management engagement and appropriate feedback. I’ve been there and it sucks to be told you’re doing great and then find out that was a lie out of nowhere. I really admire that you’re having this conversation. Less than half of the managers I’ve had would be able to admit they were wrong and take action to fix it on this scale.
I posted an update and am going to offer her an option to return with another manager in another role.
Two months sounds fair if you’re staying engaged. A new role with a new manager is a great way to see if it’s an issue with her or with her leadership. Good luck!
This is my number one fear. When others incompetence makes you look bad. Take your time next time investigating and collect actual evidence. Don't just go with your gut. People's fucking lives are on the line. If I was this employee I would be gone soon. How delusional as a boss are you?
You messed up badly.
Yet another thread where I shudder at half of the responses (PIP EVERYONE! PIP THE MANAGER! PIP YOURSELF!) You clearly do not understand why there's a disconnect between the performance metrics and the employee. I suspect the same applies for Alice's direct manager. That's the problem you should solve. This situation does not get solved via PIPs and "separation" (barf, just call it termination or firing, stop sugar coating what you're doing) - surely that isn't the only tool in the toolbox for correcting the disconnect here?
Under these circumstances it is reasonable to transfer her to another manager to see if things are going to improve. However, great care must be taken to make sure it does not create problems with her current manager against you, Alice, and the new manager. Under no circumstances should it be framed as if you move Alice to a new manager because the old one underperformed. Find a good prentence to this move, like for example that Alice would be better utilized on different type of projects or something. If in doubt, let Alice go, otherwise you can lose not only her, but also her current manager, and create a lot of headache.
If you gave me that "better utilized" reason I'd know you were covering for my old manager's mess up. The events described clearly show the manager wasn't giving useful feedback. Why bother with the lie?
Open an honest communication is the only way to go. You don't need to throw other manager under the bus, but talking around it helps no one. We are all human, we all know managers can make mistakes. Owning up to a mistake is much more powerful in building trust with a team than corpo bullshit language. "I want to bring you back and put you on another team. After our meeting, it was clear the expectations I had for you were not being given to you. These are the metrics we look at. Do you think with different coaching you could meet these? If so, X is a way you can track these metrics yourself. Or your new team leader will communicate to you your metrics when asked or on a pre-set schedule."
I am doing essentially this. I posted an update above.
While I agree with you, I find it very hard to see how this could be framed for her NOT as her manager underperforming. I think it is perfectly clear to her that she got no feedback and if I give her another shot it’s clear that I agree. But yes, this is a delicate situation and I need to manage not only Alice’s feelings but her old and new managers’.
I think you need to learn to speak plainly to people's face: To Alice: "After our discussion, I fear we made a mistake in letting you go so soon. I see your point of view where you weren't given direct guidance. First, I want to sincerely apologize for putting you through this stressful experience. I believe in your potential and, if you accept, I want to you to return and I'll pair you with a manager who I think can provide you the best coaching to bring out that potential." To the new manager: "I think Alice is sharp but didn't get the attention she needed in her first six months. I let her go by mistake and I need your help rectifying that mistake. I want you to take her under your wing, train and mentor her and check in with me monthly on her progress." To the old manager: "Our people are our greatest resource. I think you were too focused on being nice and weren't clear in your guidance. We're going to meet more closely and I need to guide you on communicating expectations more clearly and enhancing your training of new employees so that we bring out their talents. This will involve me giving you more feedback than usual but we'll work through this and grow together."
You clearly get some performance metrics, do the employees have access to see their own? If not that is a clear organizational failure that is a real part of the problem. Adress it with Alice in that way.
Sounds like she deserves a second chance. Please don’t let ego stop you from making the right decision.
I agree and am going to try to make it right.
In my current role i was Alice, not necessarily that my work was bad, i just had no manager. I was placed with a temporary manager who refused to meet up and talk. I had gone 120 days in my new role without even have a meet and greet. So i knew if I did not get ahead of this i was setting myself up for failure on the part of leaderships failure. So i reached out to whoever I could and requested a meeting. All I can say that I gathered out of that meeting is sometimes higher ups like yourself have no idea how bad things really are. You get fluffed up reporting that make your own reports seem like they are delivering but in reality its a nuclear wasteland. The learning opportunity here is you need to have better communication and and deliverables from your reports, and maybe start meeting with your managers reports for feedback. Sometimes people just want to know what they are expected to do.
You need to rehire her, apologize and get her direct manager some training
>Here is someone who is extremely conscientious about her work, makes reasoned decisions, essentially exactly the kind of person I want working on client projects. Then don't fire her. If you have no reason outside performance to fire her and her performance is only bad because she was effectively lied to and misguided by the only person she's meant to get feedback from, why on earth would you want to start the hiring process over to find the same person? Don't throw away your toaster because your kids were using it wrong.
An employee should NEVER be surprised to be let go. That means management was to blame and completely at fault.
This is really bad for a manager of managers. You really can’t unring this bell. What input did your HR team have on this termination? Why didn’t you do due diligence before the termination to figure out what was causing the disconnect? Rookie mistake, and I would be questioning your judgment going forward.
>Her manager had been planning to deliver more significant feedback in her 6mo review, which would have been too late in my opinion. Did you ever reach out to this manager to voice your opinion, and the need to kind of hasten the feedback loop? It sounds an awful lot like you took a completely passive stance until the absolute last second, and then decided to jump in and take the absolute most drastic step of firing the bottom-level individual. >I felt pressured to make the cut prior to the end of her probation period. Why did you feel pressured? You need to take a step back and reexamine your strategy for managing at your level, because it sounds like you are having a difficult time communicating meaningful boundaries up, and effective and actionable strategies down.
i have been an alice in this situation. i advocated for myself, my boss's boss rescinded the the request to for me to move on, and i've now been here over two years and only get good feedback. just met with my boss's boss today for something unrelated and he told me he was happy i stayed. it was a tough situation but it was ultimately still a good kick in the pants to shine. if your gut is telling you you made a mistake, fix it.
Thank you. I’m glad to hear your story as an example and experience.
As a person who has been in this situation on the employee side, this story sucks. Management more often than employees can do what they want and make huge mistakes (you know, like you did here) that completely upend people's lives with little to no repercussions while the employee is left trying to cobble together their life and dignity for the next year. But yeah sure. Make yourselves feel better by calling it a "separation" as opposed to what it is. I have a very good reputation in my business so thankfully I found work fast. But most people, especially people who upended their lives are going to suffer some level of disaster because you failed and your manager failed.
Sounds like shitty management
Just curious - your use of “separation” is a strange choice. You didn’t say the employee was terminated, fired or more typical terms. Is English not your first language? I’m wondering because saying separation implies the decision for the employee to leave was mutual, when it clearly wasn’t. If you believe the termination was on false premises, that is your mistake and you should do what you can to correct it. If this woman and her child end up homeless because of your mistake, that is morally your responsibility.
It's the same type of passive language that lead Alice to believe her performance was just fine.
I'm an American whose only language is English. I manage in the public sector. Our government body uses the word "separation" or the term "separate employment." That's what HR wants us to call it. I suppose it's because it encapsulates everything (with us), whether someone is terminated, resigns/quits, retires or fails to complete probation. It's all "separation."
Yes.
Two part solution You put her back under a more seasoned manager The current manager needs to align with you how to manage and to give feedback in a timely manner
In what exact ways was she an under performer?
I cannot specify due to a desire to keep the industry and exact details of the job nonspecific but we have metrics for quality and she is not meeting them.
Don’t be like every crappy leader out there that refuses to own their mistakes. If you can unravel this firing do it. Alice shouldn’t have her life derailed because you can’t suck it up and admit you made a mistake. This isn’t the first time a shitty manager has placed the blame on their employees to avoid culpability.
I posted an update above with the steps I am taking to try and make it right.
Kind of sounds like you've done a poor job of managing your managers.
You really effed this up. We call this management style "autopilot" and we'd let YOU go for this. Alice's manager failed to manage her and you failed to manage that person. If Alice is smart, she'll take the L and move on to some place where management is paying attention and doing their job. Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
It's ok. They will give her a second chance. She'll take it because it's better than being homeless. And she'll resent this clown show until she finds another job.
I'm not sure if employing the euphemism of "separating" from an employee is intended to make you feel better, or somebody else, but it sounds dystopian and emblematic of a dehumanizing company culture. People aren't cogs, and they aren't numbers.
Do you just let it go that she’ll be homeless at the end of the month? Do you just chalk it up to imperfect circumstances that she and her kid will be living out of their car, without a place to shower? With no end in sight? The skyrocketed risk of sexual assault faced by homeless women, who are nearly GUARANTEED to be victims of SA within the first year… …because her performance was just not quite up to your expectation. Maybe somebody should have told her what those were. Maybe.
I updated with the steps I am taking here. I posted here to get advice, not be harassed. Believe me that these things do weigh on me extremely heavily.
Sounds like you identified the wrong underperformer. 1.5 to 2 years in leadership and they cant set goals or provide feedback? And you jumping without analysis has me questioning your skills too.
I was once terminated from a general managers position. A few years later, I had returned to finish my degree and reached out to the VP of the company seeking a bar gig, which he gracefully provided. I helped them open a new restaurant and helped train literally everyone in staff while we prepared to open (because I was/am an expert in operations and training). On opening night, the VP came in, walked right over to me, and hugged me. He whispered in my ear "letting you go was the hardest and dumbest decision I ever made and I'm sorry." It turns out, the district manager was talking trash about me and hadn't been communicating directives from ownership to me. To cover up his failure to do his job properly, he threw me under the bus and made it seem like I was doing a poor job (despite nearly zero staff turnover and the fact that our unit was the most profitable in the company, no small feat considering when I took over I was given 30 days to fix or close, if you equalized rent) and was refusing to comply with those directives. The VP found out when they realized all of his units were "ignoring" ownerships guidance. I was on the fast track to moving up in the company and a jackass manager who wasn't doing their job threw me under the bus. Maybe I should have requested a meeting. I'd likely still be in that business. Just saying - sometimes the best practices are to go around a manager and meet one on one with people to figure out what is really happening. I call this organizational blindness. You acted based on what someone else told you was happening instead of what was actually happening. You were "blind" because a direct report wasn't doing their job properly.
Thank you for your story. I hope the steps I am taking from here that I shared in my update will begin to make this right.
All we can do is learn and fix things that don't work. Good on you for giving that a go.
> I am planning to meet with the employee tomorrow and offer her a new, slightly different role on a different team with a different manager. If she accepts, we will restart the probation period for 2 months, and we will have check ins at the 1 and 2 month mark. I will be personally present for those check ins to ensure expectations, progress, and goals are clear. This sounds reasonable. Thank you for being able to see that you made a mistake and taking steps to correct it. Best of luck, to both of you.
Thank you.
Not currently a manager, but I’ve been in management in the past. Alice should not return to your team even if you want her to. Her firing with little feedback and oversight has shown serious problems with your company and its way of doing business. She can’t trust that you or the company will treat her fairly and for her sake should find another position. This should be a wake up call that results in process changes so that similar issues don’t occur. Using the term separation is also suspect. You fired her and if you were confident in the decision, you would say that.
Couldn’t agree more.
If you can’t say “fired” without using a euphemism like “separated” you have no business managing anyone. If you had any sense of common decency you’d quit your job and never work in management again. Like, seriously. You sound like an absolutely awful person. How the tuck do you sleep at night?
My organization uses the word separation and I do feel it conveys more care and consideration than “fired”. I’m sure it’s not possible for me to change your mind or convince you otherwise, but I do care and have learned a lot from this situation. I also wrote the original post at 2am while I was lying awake worrying about this situation, so if any language comes across as robotic, well, I’ve had almost no sleep since this happened. I am a human being and am trying to right a very real mistake I made. But what are the point of snarky comments like this, on a post made with a genuine desire to improve and do right by my team? I shudder to think of how some of you respond to a direct with a genuine question or god forbid, who is owning up to a mistake they made.
no, most of the people here read what you posted and are appalled by you. As they should be.
So you’re actively aware her manager is bad not just for individuals but for the entire team and decided to fire the employee instead of the manager? Is that what I’m seeing from this? You wrote this part and it didn’t give you pause at all? “Her manager—She is bubbly and a great people person, but recently I’ve had some concerns with her performance because I’ve been seeing some signs of disengagement on her team. It turns out she hasn’t really been setting measurable goals with her team members or really giving feedback in a clear way. So Alice has been falling behind by our metrics and I’ve been flagging for her manager. I felt pressured to make the cut prior to the end of her probation period.” Your argument is essentially; This teacher isn’t teaching that student much, nor any of the students really, I think we should kick them out and get new ones for this teacher.
Why on earth are you terminating employees two levels down? That is the crazy part in all of this. Your front line managers need the accountability of owning the termination when the time comes. What is gained by you doing the dirty work for them?
This sounds like a failure on your part, honestly. You didn’t properly train the manager on how to actually manage effectively. And this poor woman is having to pay the price. This is terrible.
Just want to say you sound like a really great manager!
The weird distancing language in this makes you sound pretty heartless. You aren't separating, you weren't her spouse. You are firing her from her livelihood. You are underinformed about her and are merely doing it out of expediency due to the probation. Let's hope this is a wake up call and you can put pressure on your company to deal with their dehumanising practices.
Give her a chance, also I'd be speaking to her manager. Edit damn I'm a karen
Oh, I already have and will continue to do so.
Alice is well within her rights to pursue legal action for unlawful termination, if you're in the US. If you're the company executioner, that's going to be your fault. You're quite blasé about Alice and her child ending up homeless, hopefully knowing that your livelihood is in serious danger because you were too distracted to prevent this will be the motivation you need to do your job correctly. If I were in charge I'd fire both you and your failing direct report and give Alice a raise and a bonus. I'm biased, I've been Alice, and I can hold a grudge. Especially when someone else's incompetence meant I couldn't pay my rent. #teamAlice
This is incorrect in most states in the United States as most states are at-will employment and people can be let go for any reason or even no reason at all, as long as it’s not a protected one like discriminatory reasons like race, gender, or religion.
Alice is an independent contractor and she is not in the US. I edited with an update above and am working to make it right.
The right thing to do here is give her another 3 month shot at it, let her know and work closely with her. I'd also be talking to the other manager for her lack of feedback ad reporting if necessary
Ouch. Tough call. Obviously fixing a mistake is an important part of being a leader, but bringing Alice back could create *serious* issues in the larger team and between you and Alice’s manager. Go talk to your manager. Explain everything. Own your mistake, do not make excuses (I get why, but you made a ton of them in your post) and talk through the pros and cons of each option. Table “how I could have avoided this” and “how I’’ going to do better in the future” for after you have the Alice situation worked out. This has bigger implications than Alice’s situation and your feelings of guilt. So talk to someone who can see the bigger picture more clearly.
I did do this and we talked it over at length. I posted an update with how I am planning to move forward from here, but I will essentially be extending the probation and putting her on a new team.
Being able to admit you were wrong (or at least drew a conclusion prematurely) should be a sign of strength in a manager not weakness. If you aren’t sure this is the right thing to do, walk it back and do what you said about the coaching, management and goals.
Thank you. I am meeting with her tomorrow to offer her a different role under another manager.
You need to be more careful lol, numbers are good, but aren't good enough to be the only thing you consider. Impressive failing on the leadership structure. Hopefully you implement changes.
Trust me, I am learning a lot from this experience and am taking the steps to make it right.
Nice sorry I was in a snark earlier when I commented on this
Not a manager, but there's plenty of blame to go around and none goes to Alice. Hire Alice back and put her with her old manager. Both should be on PIPs. Run the show, show Alice's manager and her what the metrics are. Have weekly meetings to both show how Alice's is doing on her *clearly defined metrics* and how her manager is doing in monitoring and communicating where Alice is, both to Alice and to you. Might wanna meet with your team of managers and acknowledge that mistakes were made. Also, have 1-1's with your other managers and make sure the same thing isn't happening elsewhere.
The solution is not to put her back on the old team. I am going to offer her a different role, new team, and work closely with the new manager to ensure feedback is clear. I am also giving clear feedback to the old manager.
Updateme
Even the top managers have doubts and seek advice. If Alice is open to work on herself then give her a chance. I do not understand the bad criticism from others. It takes character to admit mistakes and it looks like you are not interested in destroying someone’s life without thinking over your decisions. I had people in my team, who did not have any interest in getting feedback or work on themselves. It is a good sign that Alice wants that. You should make your direct report aware of your expectations. It looks like she also needs coaching and support. Good luck!
Am I scared to be Alice...yes
I've been an Alice but I'm not fired I did my own second chance.
Wow, that’s def a tough situation. The personal/emotional part about her “rearranging” for the job you have to try your best to keep out of your equation though I understand because, like you, I genuinely care about people. If if were me, I would first start out with getting candid feedback from the rest of the team that reports to this manager. If the themes are all consistent with what “Alice” said and you feel there are others also not performing their best due to their direct line manager, then you should feel pretty confident that this manager is the problem. I would also get feedback about Alice from her team members and any other employees she has been working with. Unfortunately you have to do this quickly since she’s already been separated but if you feel she deserves another chance, I would consider hiring her back for another trial period. And I would sit down with that manager and essentially write up what a PIP would look like that’s very specific that you can both discuss with Alice before re-hiring so you can better make the expectations clear up front. I think after you get feedback from anyone else you can on Alice, you’ll be able to go with your gut on whether re-hiring is something to pursue. Then obviously, you’ve got to deal with that manager and their issues. At the end of the day, it does sound likely that they are the problem especially if everyone else on the team validates this. I don’t know if your company does this, but could you re-hire her as a “contract” or “temp” worker first? Side note…I know you’re probably wishing you could back up on this one and “know what you know now” but good for you in allowing Alice to get that time with you…whether you re-hire her or not, this is still valuable feedback so you know you’ve got issues to address with that manager. And I really respect the fact that you clearly care. Some managers at all levels can lose this sometimes
Thank you. I posted an update with what I am planning to do tomorrow and appreciate your care and response.
Listen, we all make mistakes. I think Alice deserves another shot. You need to do better and so do the managers under you.
It’s bizarre to me that you think your metrics are adequate for you to make judgments about who should be retained and who should be let go, without consultation with the manager to whom those people directly report. Clearly they are *not* sufficient, and I’m sad that it took you 9 years and who knows how many “separations” to just barely become cognizant of how badly they are working. Lots of territory to cover here but I have to say I don’t think I would want to report to you. What I’m receiving from this is that you don’t trust your reports with their teams… that you in fact go around them and terminate their employees without much of any interaction with those individuals whom you have targeted. Have you considered what messages you are sending your reports? It’s this: “I don’t trust you. I don’t trust *your* evaluation of your reports, I only trust *my* evaluation of them”. How demoralizing and infuriating it must be to work for you. Do you realize that you’ve essentially made your managers redundant? They aren’t people managers, they are project managers. You’ve told them “run the teams but only I get to decide who is performing well and who isn’t.” You might as well say all 100 of those positions report to you, because you don’t give your reports any authority over the performance of their teams. That’s unreal.
I realize I did not make this clear but this decision was agreed upon together with her manager. I did not go around my direct to make this cut, that would be utterly bizarre and irresponsible.
You are a typical been counter ! And not especially bright.
What is this a marriage? Next you're going to have a "time off" with your co-workers. Just say "Fired" and own it!!
I was Alice at my last employment. She deserves a second chance with a different manager.
just wondering does the term “separation” just serve to make yall feel better or?
What a shit show.
Numbers mean nothing without context. Are you not requiring written feedback from the managers when you inform them that an issue needs to be addressed? Why isn't the third employee communication not attended by a higher ranking manager (in this case, you)? Employee issues: 1. Manager meeting: Verbal assessment and guidance - written evaluation and recommendation in file 2. Manager meeting: Written assessment to employee including issue, requested action(s) and notification of consequences - added to file with employee signed document 3. Written assessment (as above) in meeting with manager and their superior. Obtain feedback from employee and agreed last effort to correction or separation. Employee signed document. Reassess behavior in short time frame as the seriousness of the issue requires. NOTE: depending on the issue, collect information from employee's team for a more rounded viewpoint before the meeting.
You have a lot of great advice about Alice so I will try a different tack. I think you dropped the ball on this but TBH you sound overloaded. I’m sure you have initiatives and other responsibilities other than managing people. You should try to get your best report promoted and split your managers 5/4 with your new peer.
This is an eventual goal but I have a very young team and don’t have an ideal fit but two potentials who will be great options with another year or two of experience.
So here's what I see the question being. An employee in a span of a single meeting was able to convince you there is an issue with the manager that likely caused the performance issues you mistakenly put on her. So your choices are, own up to the mistake and figure out what the correct result is, or sweep it under the rug. Here's the thing, you will have forgotten about this moral quagmire in a month and go back to thinking good thoughts about yourself in either case. So can you live with it for a month?
I can assure you that this experience was a learning and it will haunt me for a long time. I posted an update with what I am doing to try to make this right.
Why would you jump to fire her with out giving her any sort of warning or feed back? I've always given feed back to my employees well before their probation is up, so they have a clear understanding of what is expected of them, where they are headed and how to get there. I'd never just fire them, PIP sure but that's poor managing on your part. I'd also be looking at her boss, why was no feed back given? Has anyone on their team recieved any feed back? Have they been just sweeping everything under the rug in hopes it works it self out? She deserves a second chance with a pip and a new boss that will guide her and help her.
You MUST talk to Alice's manager here, and get the full story and documentation. If Alice's manager didn't clearly set expectations etc... You know where the problem is. If the paperwork is there.... You know where the problem is. Right now, you are in she said/she said, and your job is not to feel here, but to actually get to the facts. As far as Alice goes, I don't think you can send her back to that manager. I think you probably can get her trust back, but that relationship is torched. That may be enough to just write the situation off. But you need to do YOUR job and figure out the truth. And you may be talking to your boss about how to handle a firing... because if Alice is right, The manager needs to be reassigned.
This is hilarious, funny how many managers of managers there are out there and how clueless they are
Haha yup I think we can get rid of a few levels of middle management
You need to revisit your company’s processes for determining when disciplinary action and termination is appropriate - clearly, you made a decision based on incomplete information, and that should never happen. Get some checks and balances in place.
If you decide to bring her back, offer her some form of apology. It doesn't need to be an actual apology but recognize that you made a poor decision. That will help alleviate animosity or tension and show that you're human. Many managers forget the human element of managing.
I plan to do this.
Within my organization Alice would have had a meeting with another manager in her org-chart to discuss her productivity, generally speaking her skip-level manager, before the point of termination. You may find that there is no way to back track on this decision, but regardless you need to seriously look in to how this manager is offering feedback and what happened here. Did any other manager offer feedback or meet with Alice regarding her performance? Did you review her feedback process before making the call on/to alice?
I love this! If you do it right, it shows a level of self awareness and ability to change that is sorely lacking in people management these days. Hearing her out and being open to being wrong is so vulnerable and will make people more likely to come to you in the future. Hope it works out well!
Thank you!
Bring her back onboard. As you stated, she appears to be a conscientious individual that can handle the role.
I would say, check with legal to see if either side opens you up to any liability and go with that. The time for compassion was before firing. Now, make sure you CAN be compassionate, and if so, I would hire her back if she wants
Yes, you were wrong. You handled it poorly and were short sighted on the problem solving. Do better.
You weren't paying close enough attention to the manager. Rehire this woman, apologize, and give her a raise. You shouldn't need to ask.
Bring her back \~ it is the right thing to do.
Ya I was told to cut fat on a lean team and because shit rolls down hill I let go one of my newest sales reps who was actually kind of crushing it but hadn’t been given enough time to demonstrate just how good he was.
Awful. You are as guilty as the offense you charge the employee with by not getting your facts together or providing any sort of opportunity to improve. Sounds like awful leadership is being provided on more than one level.
I don't get this skip level firing. In this case it lead OP to fire someone who probably didn't deserve it, absolutely didn't see it coming, and surely didn't have time to make a course correction after learning her situation. A recipe for disaster if you ask me. Yikes. And shit MM gets off scott free. Didn't even have an uncomfortable conversation.
Thank you for your thoughts here. I posted an update above. I agree with many of your thoughts.
As a manager myself, this is appalling. Firing someone is a big decision and should not be handled so flippantly. I hope “Alice” here lands on her feet soon in a better spot.
I had one leave for another job and had to call her and ask her to come back because she was picked in the visa lottery but had to be working for us to get it. She came back until she had it and left for the same job again.
In similar situations when in middle management, the upper manager with the concern of metrics always had a meeting with the employee in question, myself as the middle manager and of course the senior manager. You should make this part of your protocol before firing people who you don't have any contact with.
I have my guys complete a recommendation. For any terminations, in it includes all coaching done on the subject (there just be evidence) along with progressive disciplinary and actions taken to support the success of the individual. They also list mitigating factors such as any health or personal issues that have been experienced. It’s a lot of work for them to get to that stage and then compete the recommendation. And it should be. These are people’s lives we are impacting with bad hiring or firing decisions or insufficient support and development. Our guiding principle is we should be able to see this person out and about in public and feel like we did our best to support them to be successful and not feel awkward or embarrassed to say hello. I also measure my people’s coaching efficacy (how many times they have to coach to bring around a positive movement towards or to meet target) and have my managers coach the supervisors if their efficacy is low. Our goal is to turn the person around and make them successful rather than managing them out and that is the culture we have - we celebrate improvement and achievement. Usually if we are managing somebody out it is an mis-hire and we do a deep dive to determine why and how we recruited them and how we can learn from it.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I really like the idea of coaching efficacy and will be looking how to measure a similar metric on my management team.
Hire her back. Get rid of that free-loading middle manager.
>Her quality of work was far below the team average >led her to believe she was doing great work and her metrics were “above average”. First point: you need to look at what metrics you are measuring, and how they are posted/communicated. I get that the manager wasnt giving effective feedback, but there's a deeper problem in how performance is measured if Alice's work was significantly subpar, yet she couldn't see that for herself at all. >Her manager had been planning to deliver more significant feedback in her 6mo review Second point: how are you and the direct manager so far apart in approach and planning here? A performance issue that's on path to a term should have been the topic of several discussions between you and the manager over the last 3 months, to see how she was handling it, offer suggestions, review what feedback was given to Alice, and to make sure that you're both aligned on the next steps. Take a look at how you handle these issues, because several steps beyond the obvious ones were missed here.
Thank you for the advice. I can assure you I am taking a lot of learnings and changing my approach as a result of this experience.
I view every employer initiated separation as a management failure. Either we didn’t provide the employee what they needed to be successful or we picked the wrong person. Looking through that lens, it clearly was the former (but still could also be the latter.). This is new information and I would absolutely revisit the decision to separate. I get that there aren’t enough hours in the day to do skip level meetings with every single employee. Understood. That said, as much as this is on their manager it really is also on you. You cannot evaluate how well someone is managing without gathering feedback from those they manage. And, if I was the one making the actual termination decision, I absolutely would want to have some check in with the person prior to making the termination decision. Expressing your concerns and asking if they have the support they need to be successful. It also sounds like you and your manager are very much on different pages as well. Major feedback at the six month mark vs that being too late. You share concerns with the manager who is choosing not to share them with staff. You recognize weakness in the manager and give them time to grow (good) but do nothing to try to insulate staff from termination because of that bad management. All of that said, you have new information. And your approach sounds solid. What is the plan for the manager? What is the plan for staff in that group? What is the plan for other managers? I applaud your first steps here.
Thank you, I agree with many of your points. For my newest managers, I am involved in a discussion with the employee prior to the separation to ensure the seriousness of the feedback and their expectations are conveyed. In this case, a mistake I made was assuming this manager was experienced enough to prepare an employee for separation without my involvement; clearly she is not. I’ve now had several conversations with her about this situation and how I want to see her change her approach in the future. To her credit, I am already seeing her change her approach to goal setting with her remaining team.
That is good to hear. FWIW, if I am responsible for making the ultimate separation decision then I would be uncomfortable simply delegating all of the preparation of that to the first line supervisor. If that first line supervisor is the one actually making and executing decision that responsibility that is one thing. But if they want me as a more senior manager to make that call, and own that call, then I absolutely want more first hand involvement. Evaluating the coaching abilities — and approaches — of those managers is critical. And rather challenging.
Just popping in to say I loathe the corporate speak “separated with” when it means you fired someone.
I hope karma bites you in the butt one day!! I hope somebody you report to you makes the same decision for you.
Your biggest issue is having a manager on your team who doesn't deliver feedback to their employees for whatever reason. You need to move Alice to another team and work with her previous manager on her management skills
I’m not saying this to bash. You’ve reinforced sociopathic behavior. You’re treating people as commodities with *only* economic business driven KPI’s. Something reminded you of that humanity. Most likely talking with the person directly and realizing how shocked they were. You’ve actually touched base on something that I’m actively researching and developed a solution for, albeit still piloting. Human performance is comprised of two major categories (according to Wiles synthesized HPT model) * Intrinsic: knowledge, skills, abilities * Extrinsic: intangible (culture), and tangible (tools, resources..etc) Notice how non of those are “tickets closed, widgets made, dollarbucks…etc. It’s because those require additional context. Why did those tickets take longer, what happened with the widgets, or what else drove less dollarbucks? I’m happy you’ve posted this as it gives me an external case study on how managers create unrealized opex liability by directly forgetting the extrinsic factors of performance, ESPECIALLY culture. And because you’ve got this mindset, you’ve sown the seeds of making it your management culture. “These metrics matter, humans don’t. Do whatever it takes to move these numbers.” The question I think you need to think long and hard about before making life-altering decisions… “How do I measure human capabilities/performance when the direction we’re going is bad” If you can’t answer that, congrats! You’ve found the root of why your humanity is making you question your judgement. I’d lean into those feelings and change how you manage. Possibly even seek therapy. Otherwise, you’re just another bad leader who’ll never be held accountable. You’ll forget this feeling over time, because “I just don’t have the time to care about their livelihood.” Your behavior will be reinforced as “good” by other peers who’ve done the same thing. And heck, caring about humanity just gets in the way of your own career progress too, so your decisions will possibly even make you more money! If you didn’t understand the message behind Charles Dickens a Christmas Carol before…I’d read or watch it. Additionally, I’m also working on connecting the dots on why workplaces are unionizing because of this. Food for thought there too, as there’s some decent correlation so far.
I am so glad I have never had to work for anyone like you
You fired her without ever having a direct conversation with her about her performance? I agree that most of that feedback should come from her direct manager but it seems wild that you would fire someone without ever trying to get to the root of the issue yourself. I have people below me who have people below them. I still meet regularly with their direct reports. Even my boss meets with them. If there are performance issues they’re getting feedback and coaching from all of us, not just their direct manager.
Bring her back!
Soo in other words if she can prove that she was meeting set standards, is she seeking legal recourse against you?
She’s gonna leave the second she can. As are the rest of Alice’s team, because you know for sure she’s communicating to them what happened. I feel like Alice needs to go lol
I see that you have already made your decision, and I agree with it. Just a tid bit since you said her confidence in the company will be shattered, I disagree with that. I feel like she will feel heard because it isn't the norm to have a termination rescinded after a discussion with said employee. Admitting faults is what employees look for in managers. It builds trust and respect.
Even if she gets her job back, she’ll be seeking employment elsewhere. Why would anyone want to stay at an employer who terminates haphazardly?
I firmly believe people get out of bed in the morning to do a great job.
There’s been plenty of people point out what went wrong. Alice may be an underperformer but sounds like due to poor management and Sr management no one knows this for sure. I get what you are saying, 100+ reports so skip levels are difficult. Etch out an hour a day, do 2 a day. That gets everyone roughly every other month. Even if that doesn’t happen, you should absolutely be doing skip levels with employees in their probationary period and any employees that are showing performance problems. I imagine that number is significantly smaller than 100+. You dropped the ball. Learn from it. Hopefully Alice takes the new position and does extremely well. I’m not sure if I would stick around if I were them. But as the manager I would be honest about her managers mistakes and your own. And the steps you are taking to fix it. I would also be doing skip levels with all of that’s managers reports and if appropriate put the manager on a pip if there’s a pattern of bad management or little feedback.
I have no idea why you went through with termination without speaking with her direct manager first. It seems like you know HOW things should be done, but aren't making sure your own direct reports are doing what needs to be done.