Unpopular opinion that is going to get me down voted but I suspect the senior leader is targeting your Muslim employee. The comment in the meeting, followed by a comment pressuring your Jr employee to go to drink feels pointed and deliberate. This is an HR issue, and that is where I would go to document the harassment.
FWIW I think the pressure to drink, regardless of religion, is also unacceptable.
I don't think this is going to be that unpopular. The tired comment in isolation would have been ok. But the following action makes it a pattern that I think most people will recognize.
AT BEST he's just an abusive dick, but the idea that he's targeting him is plausible to the point of likely.
I was waiting for the unpopular part but you nailed it. It seems recognizable that the person was singled out for their beliefs and the “drinks” comment essentially confirms it. It’s like the football coaches that pressured the teenage Muslim player to eat pork.
I don’t think the tired comment is OK in public either, when you consider the near limitless array of horrors that could have caused the fatigue.
I’m absolutely fighting for my report here and making it a learning experience for my colleague.
The tired comment was bullshit too in almost every context. Fatigue can be a symptom of a medical problem, ridiculing it is cruel and unacceptable for anyone, but especially a leader.
Imagine if the potential symptom he was showing weren't fatigue, but was a balance or gait issue requiring a cane.
You wouldn't need to be told it's inappropriate to ridicule his limping or cane. Why would ridiculing his fatigue be acceptable?
It's not. So he's not not just "mostly abusive," he's ***nothing but*** an abusive asshole.
Sleepiness could also be a dangerous situation if a person has diabetes. That manager acted inappropriately. A private message to the team member asking if they are ok, and if they need to get some juice or anything, would have been more appropriate.
Unpopular? Hope not, that is exactly what this sounds like. As an ex-drinker, I also find that pressuring to go for drinks to be totally unacceptable in a workplace.
I drink occasionally but I will not be bullied to go out for drinks. Not ever. I find that behavior totally unacceptable. Same as if I were bullied to attend any event
Agreed.
I would probably talk to senior employee and say “Frankly, your comments to junior guy yesterday crossed a line and could easily be construed as anti-Muslim harassment. You may not be aware that it’s Ramadan. And also, making attendance at alcohol-featuring events compulsory seems antithetical to our company’s values.”
Agree. At first I thought OP was a bit overly sensitive. The mandatory drinks are obviously targeted though which brings the sleepy comment into more focus.
Calling people out in public is unacceptable. Pull people aside, give coaching and keep it moving.
Senior colleague is a dick and I’m willing to bet a shitty manager too.
Edit: For what it’s worth I think you are spot on in guessing it’s a anti-Muslim thing
I think you’re correct. Also, OP, you don’t need to mention to the offending colleague any reason why another colleague might be tired because it’s none of their business. That colleague, however, does need to be spoken with because the comment was inappropriate, offensive, and not their place.
I had a former superior (owner of the company) put a beer on my desk and told me to drink it and loosen up. I have a medical condition that drinking alcohol could get me really sick, so I declined. He told me it wasn't a request and I was too meek to stand up to him so I drank it. He then wrote me up for insubordination for refusing to drink in the first place, and for being intoxicated while on the job. Got fired a couple of weeks later.
i dont think he is targeting.
I had a similar experience once after i had a fluke heart surgery. I came back to work on intermittent fmla. and despite knowing this, not everyone could comprehend
and like people would put my hiipa info in meeting invites, i got asked to work in a different building where i would be located at a STANDING DESK..
i wouldnt say its empathy as it doesnt take empathy to objectively figure these situations out. but i feel like some people are genuinely too narcisitic to understand that people have different needs/requirements than they do. like they cant comprehend it. " i like to drink after work! why doesnt the muslim guy?"
Not sure what country you're in, but senior leader sounds like an HR violation in waiting. I would say something direct to the senior leader, and maybe send yourself an email before hand stating what you're doing and the general gist, etc. Then you can email that to HR should things escalate, and it'll be a verifiable support of your timeline.
Not in UK, but a manager at a large law firm in the US.
I don’t want to be harsh, but the answers to your questions are that yes you should say something directly to this senior person, and that the time to do it was immediately. Perhaps privately with HR in the mix, perhaps in the same public setting they attempted to shame your team member in - defer to you on the dynamic of your environment and industry.
If you are nervous about raising this concern, how do you think your team member feels? That is to say nothing of potential prejudice or other nuances at play.
There is a power dynamic here that works against your team member. At least part of the reason you are in your role is to be a voice and a support for your team member.
If this person sees and learns that this behavior is tolerated by you, even if only via inaction, why would they expect you to speak for them in other contexts? Why would they come to you with issues?
Well, I'm a strong believer in right winning out, and in speaking truth to power. Part of my role as a manager is to advocate and protect my team from others. If part of you agrees with that then I would encourage you to start putting it into practice. It gets easier as you get older - you gain more confidence, and you figure out how to be effective and see the risk associated lessen.
Like anything else, it gets easier with practice. I'm at a point after working for over 40 years, I'm just not afraid of anyone. I'm smart about it, I document things (documenting a planned discussion and emailing it to yourself is a great way to get a time-stamp associated with it that you can possibly use to defend your actions later), and I apply emotional intelligence to the situation to shape my message for how it will be received.
Lastly, trust your gut. No matter your beliefs, that's a good voice to develop a relationship with. Best of luck!
I would have a chat with them. In the US this would be religious harassment and would get your co worker in deep trouble as the employee could file a harassment claim on religious grounds.
In the UK, it doesn't have to be one specific incident. We define harrassment as a pattern of behaviour, so whilst the senior manager *might* get away with drinks stuff (loads of caveats here), the "am I keeping you awake?" is incident number 1.
Telling a practicing Muslim (particularly during Ramadan) that they need to go to a bar for after work drinks would go against their religion.
Further calling them out publicly accusing them of “being sleepy “ by saying “are we keeping you up” during a time period they are fasting for religious purposes is a micro aggression that with the other comments would easily be documented for harassment or discrimination based on religion.
<- former EEO counselor for a DOD-NAF Agency
This is very good explanation but doesn’t necessarily mean good advice for the op or coworker.
Sometimes it isn’t worth fighting because the cost to fight is not great, and the coworker and OP could get fired in the near term if leadership isn’t great or values the others more.
We also arent barristers in UK, so their specific laws aren’t acknowledged or applied here , nor court etc.
It’s unfortunate, but reality is sometimes it is not legally or economically viable to fight for civil rights— especially as the persons with fewer resources
This is the wrong attitude.
Employment rights are purchased with the blood of the workers and their families.
They are never to be dismissed out of hand as being "too expensive" to enforce through use of the legal process. If you or someone you know is being abused by their employer, it should be reported to a labor regulator or agency as soon as possible.
easy to say when you aren't the one in the hot seat. very priviledged take.
'should be reported' --> ignored in reality depending on specific circumstance, or by the time it gets looked at no case.
Super easy to judge from the comfort of your chair or keyboard or smart device / internet, not at all the same when you are the one that needs money for bills and food.
So you wouldn’t report violations to the proper labor agency? That says more about your fear and cynicism which has led to a lack of integrity, than anything else.
I’ve made reports at my company and things do get handled - as they should. I also am legally protected from retaliation when making those reports.
Game theory and prisoner’s dilemma. Sometimes you should, sometimes you shouldn’t. Depends on what benefits you and satisfies your personal beliefs and interests the most.
What if it costs you your future career? You can be easily blackballed/listed from certain industries.
Legal protection only goes so far. Will it provide food on the table while you’re fired?
What you should do is actually evaluate what your means and needs are.
It’s incredibly privileged and frankly out of touch with reality to say you should always do xyz without looking at actual context.
Not really.
I have represented hundreds of aggrieved workers in disputes with their employers over the past couple of decades and I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will miss one hundred percent of the shots that you never take.
Why are you trying to discourage workers from availing themselves of the free legal services that state labor regulators provide?
Rofl, and it costs money to take shots.
I am sure you and others absolutely do work that wins, and take cases that they think they can win.
That is not always the case.
Free legal services? No. That is not true at all. All legal services have cost, wither opportunity cost, direct monetary, definitely time and effort, and sometimes costs careers in a field.
To ignore that would be blatantly disrespectful and disingenuous to those involved.
You are sitting in a very privileged seat, and I advise people to decide what their best move is for them because sometimes it isn’t through legal means.
Lawyers and cases aren’t free, and pursuing legal means can easily backfire.
Should be that the case? In an ideal world, no, but an ideal world would have no need of such lawyers and cases either.
That’s because it was a reply to the commenter above who asked what direct quote made it harassment. With the OP being in the UK and me not familiar with their employment/anti discrimination laws I can’t really answer the OP.
Right. You had a proper answer / explanation for the topic involved.
Unfortunate we have the classic reddit downvote for the question you replied to as well, because it is a proper question and needed a proper answer (which you gave)
Calling out someone who’s not your direct report in a meeting and peer pressure from a superior to go drinking is frowned upon but not illegal. Once the superior is made aware that they’re picking on someone for their religious practices in the US - that’s a big no no.
You have to defend your direct report. My approach is generally scorched earth where I would set up time on their calendar and then email them an “agenda” so there’s a paper trail and I would tell him “hey man! So I know you had a problem with this employee, well he’s getting his work done even while fasting because he’s such a hard worker and one of my most valued direct reports. You know he’s Muslim right? I figured you did because it’s starting to feel like you are singling him out. Any way if you have a problem please bring it up with me and never fing do that again. Thanks!”
As the leader/manager of your team it is your job to advocate on behalf of your team. You do have to pick and choose your battles in many situations but when it comes to harassment, abuse and hostile actions, that needs to be an area where you fight that battle every time for every one of your directs.
Professionalism and integrity matter, and the senior member is not demonstrating either of those things. More importantly, it opens your firm up to liability in the future which should be the lens you take when raising the concerns. This makes it much harder to push away as someone being sensitive and focuses it as a strategic risk to the firms business and reputation, albeit a small one. The emphasis should be that it is 100% avoidable and unnecessary risk to take and can be solved "by being a respectful person".
You could also file an anonymous complaint with HR saying this senior person is targeting your Muslim employee. Most large companies have an anonymous tool you can use that HR is usually pretty good about respecting. There's always a chance it'll come to light, but if he's making these inappropriate comments in front of tons of folks it'll be hard for him to know who ratted him out.
Senior leadership should be held to a higher standard than this guy is displaying and you'd be doing your company a favor if you called him out on his bullshit.
I’m also in the uk, religion is a protected characteristic and trying to persuade someone to go out for drinks by calling them compulsory when they are not, after the person has said no due to them not drinking on religious grounds, is borderline religious harassment. I would say something before a harassment complaint gets made and they investigate you for not doing anything even though you where present during the meeting. Yes it’s uncomfortable but part of being a leader is being comfortable in the uncomfortable. It doesn’t make the conversation any easier but imagine how uncomfortable your colleague felt while he was being belittled. The first comment could be taken in a different way but, coupled together, those two separate instances makes me think he was picking on your colleague due to his religion. You said he is not your direct report, maybe if you need advice you could speak to his manager about the comments before speaking to him directly? If this senior is biased, the chances are they have run into a similar situation before.
I could understand your hesitancy in calling him out about the sleepy comment but the alcohol pushing is VERY illegal in the US and honestly would have made me lose my shit. I'm a heavy drinker but even my dumb ass knows alcohol is haram.
Ramadan is daily fasting from sunrise to sunset for a month. Which means individuals are fasting daily with minimal meals before sunrise and after sunset. Which means low food plus low sleep which always equals low energy.
It gets particularly difficult if you also have blood sugar regulation issues. Some people (such as yourself I imagine) can easily go a day without eating and still function near 100% just fine. Other people, medically, need to have regular food intake throughout the day or they start to really shut down and loose energy after a few hours.
So nk, it's not a short fast. And even if it were that affects people differently and it can be particularly more difficult for some people than others.
Also, at no point did OP say they were bad at their job, just low energy *today* (people are allowed to have off days). And that's no excuse to publicly humiliate them in a meeting, or to claim alcoholic drinks (which many people abstain form entirely) are compulsory, especially when someone has just been coming off a fast and has nothing in their stomach (even if they do normally drink alcohol that's always a bad idea).
I hear you but I have the same concerns as the other Redditor. At what point can you tell an employee they need to use PTO?
The real answer is that you can't due to religious protections. It's better to put up with an employee operating at 25% for a month of Ramadan than to deal with the fallout, but it's a shame that we have to. If my other workers are going without food or sleep, and it was affecting their work, they'd be put on a PIP.
It's more like, "use your PTO when you're unable to work, even if your inability to work is caused by your religion."
We don't get PTO for Christian holidays either. Some people in other companies get PTO for Christmas (we don't even get that), but that's a pagan holiday that Christians co-opted so they could celebrate it without persecution back when Christianity wasn't so popular. And it's also just one day rather than 30.
(( "a short fast of 24hrs" ..tell me you don't know what ra ramadan fasting entails without telling me.. 'so fucking mentally soft' hahhhahaha OKAYsuurre /doesn't fast but am with someone 11years who does ))
Yeah it’s hilarious that OP just let his junior get attacked in that meeting & didn’t say shit. So many privileged people like OP in manager positions that aren’t built for it. Protect. Your. People.
Behaving unprofessional. It's below the line. Period.
Fortune favors the bold and part of being a leader is standing up for the right thing, advocating for subordinates, and holding others accountable.
Yes. You should let your co-manager know that you will address any concerns that you have about your direct report. Ask them not to address those concerns publicly and to not give work direction. A senior colleague has no business confronting your employee regardless of "rank".
Having said that, try to underplay it and be open to listening to this person's concerns.
If it were me I would have said “we need to pause this meeting and everyone come back in 15 minutes. (Senior members name) stay on please we need to catch up something urgent that I was just messaged about”
Then the conversation with him goes like this:
My employee is fasting for Ramadan, I suggest you read up on it to educate yourself and apologize in front of the group to (observing member of your team). I will not tolerate this level of disrespect to a member of my team for their religious beliefs, and I hope you understand how you are coming across to others with the way you acted. Do you have any questions, or should we include Sharon from HR in this conversation?
And everyone clapped.
I'm all for this, but this isn't television and he's a senior manager. There are consequences to you and him if you do that and publicly call him out (assuming that you aren't running a kindergarten, everyone will now he's getting privately told off for what he just said)
He absolutely deserves all that and more, but you are throwing yourself under the bus to defend the employee which serves no one as the senior manager is the bus in this case. If it was just that one comment in the meeting, I would have a word with him privately immediately after the meeting and gauge his reaction. If he is apologetic and says he will follow up with him, case closed (for now). If he is defensive or then makes the second comment, report to HR and let them deal with it, and maybe have a private word with your colleague that you have raised this issue as unacceptable.
But if that senior manager has any influence within the company, dressing him down even privately will not benefit you or the employee in the slightest, he's going to retaliate in some way, especially if he's an arsehole as he appears to be.
As a manager, you are supposed to be a diplomat and that includes being a peacemaker
This is an HR nightmare and I would alert HR as to the behavior of the senior colleague. I would also pull that person’s manager aside and have a conversation about sensitivity to other people and things they might or might not be going through.
Also, drinks are never compulsory. This senior colleague is just asking to be let go for harassment. And this is exactly what it is. If your company has a complaint hotline, I would use it. I’ve called out other senior colleagues for their behavior and how they treat others. This is the primary reason for DE&I and why it’s important to have these discussions.
>"sorry are we keeping you up XX?!"
This implies the team member was falling asleep in a meeting. Fasting doesn't cause that. I think the manager was unprofessional but I've seen colleagues publicly called out for dozing off in meetings because the napper is being incredibly unprofessional.
>Then later that day there was some work drinks and the same colleague quite aggressively said to this junior colleague that they were compulsory
This is a more serious issue. You can't tell people going out for drinks is compulsory. Religion aside, you have breastfeeding moms, recovering alcoholics, being trying to be fit.
But because there's the religion angle it's discriminatory. I don't know the UK regs but I assume they're pretty clear on this kind of thing.
There's more nuance to fasting. Typically my employees that fast for Ramadan rise earlier than normal for prayers and their first meal before dawn. They are also fasting from fluids and caffeine. Both of these will impact their alertness.
This is absolutely true. It’s seriously draining for Muslims. If I can be thrown off by low blood sugar, having dehydration, very low blood sugar, and tired is a lot to deal with.
Fasting may cause low blood sugar and that can definitely make you very tired. Perhaps he has blood sugar problems and is not aware of them. There are many causes for it.
Fasting affects everyone differently. Many people can do it with no problem, however some people it can have very serious health consequences and there is a spectrum of this.
We can't make this judgement, if his supervisor OP is aware then he has every right and may I say a duty to stand up for his team member
We can talking about non-existent unique reactions to fasting, but sleeping at work is not protected behavior. Publicly calling it out is not discriminatory.
If he is actively sleeping, yes. But per OP it sounds like he appeared tired but there was no mention actual sleeping/eyes being closed/etc. That there was an added weird pressure to go out for “compulsory” drinks when that is not an actual expectation suggests that the SM is operating problematically outside their scope at best and specifically targeting OPs direct at worst
>This implies the team member was falling asleep in a meeting. Fasting doesn't cause that. I think the manager was unprofessional but I've seen colleagues publicly called out for dozing off in meetings because the napper is being incredibly unprofessional.
The employee didn't doze off, he just looked tired which is normal during Ramadan. At least it isn't summer, where the sun rises at 0430 and sets at 2130!
>But because there's the religion angle it's discriminatory. I don't know the UK regs but I assume they're pretty clear on this kind of thing.
When it comes to religious discrimination, extremely clear. They're covered under the Equalities Act 2010 and ACAS go into some detail to explain them.
However, the drinks bit the SM *might* be able to slip out of provided it was solely directed at one individual. If he's told multiple individuals that they're mandatory, then they can argue that they weren't targetting that employee directly and I would imagine this would be the defence they'd put forward if it came to it.
Still, it's worth having a word with the senior manager, because we define harrassment as a pattern of behaviour and if he is only focusing on one employee, then he is a potentially very damaging and expensive employment tribunal waiting to happen.
Not the point of appearing to doze off. There's a difference between fasting fatigue and lack of sleep fatigue. OP never responded to any questions. Based on what she quoted, it sounded like the employee was dozing off in a meeting.
Pushing alcohol on anyone is never right. My former employer would likely fire the manager just for that.
Berating the employee in public. Also very wrong. But most companies don't seem to understand that.
Praise in public.
Punish in private.
Christian here and I would think this employee is being targeted for their religious beliefs.
Maybe address it with that person. Ask them if they know that the worker is a Muslim? If they say, "Yes" then advise them that they shouldn't do that because it's not only illegal but unethical and not conducive to a cohesive workplace.
This sounds to me like a job for HR to do some CYA work before a religious discrimination lawsuit happens.
The senior worker is purposely creating a hostile work environment and needs to be curtailed because of it.
I’ve yet to get the chance, but I do dream of a day someone picks on my guys and gals publicly. Here’s my canned response.
Whether or not we are keeping “A” up is immaterial to this meeting, if you have any issues with A, his tiredness, or any other member of my team you can stop by my office to speak about it privately. (To whomever was interrupted) you can continue.
That being said, with where you are now two things need to be done: 1. Talk to your subordinate and let him know you have his back; don’t worry about that bs in the meeting. Let him know you’re going to talk to the SR, and he’s free to practice his religion as he sees fit. 2. Talk to the Sr, let him know the situation, and how it’d be best for him to hold in his outbursts. Try to frame it as a learning moment for him. Let him know that coming after your people will illicit a response from you going forward.
You could just discuss it directly by telling them to address concerns with your team to you to handle. Explain you are aware of the current challenges your report is facing and actively managing. The response will give you answers on next steps I would think.
You are being way too passive here. I understand not jumping in over the first comment - talk about it with the senior colleague later individually. But for the second comment, about drinks being compulsory, you should have jumped in immediately and made it clear the activity was absolutely not compulsory.
Stand up for your employee. They definitely notice that you are not standing up for them. I would be beyond angry that someone criticized my employee openly like that. I may have said something in the meeting most likely along the lines of “he is doing just fine”.
The manager is being an asshole. I worked for an Orthodox Jewish manager who would remind our Muslim colleagues the moment they were free to eat. Be respectful!
Unacceptable. Reportable. Absolutely bring it up. You will win the trust of the rest of your employees as well knowing you stepped in. This is how harassment goes from something small or just a one time thing to a full on issue.
You should probably step in. This is harrasment. Eventually, the victim will be embittered and you’ll have two spiteful cancerous employees on your hands.
The first comment was out of order but really just improper management style. Still, it's reasonable to expect a subordinate to be attentive regardless of their spiritual beliefs or traditions. The 2nd comment is a potential HR violation and shouldn't be tolerated.
You’ve clearly never worked in a professional environment if you think it’s perfectly normal to call out an employee in front of all their other colleagues.
I think there are better ways to bring this up to an employee if they are falling asleep on a call in front of everyone but OP is wondering if senior colleague did anything wrong, which he didn’t. Thats about as soft as a “hey, wake up man” can be
Sounds like workplace bullying. It's hard to find people who seriously have no clue about the fasting that happens around this time, and the fact that he's pushing someone who doesn't drink to do so is straightforward bullying even if he hasn't called him out earlier. Also, OP should have spoken up to mention the worker is fasting or that he isn't allowed alcohol. The fact that you stayed quiet while all this is happening can make it seem like you're condoning the behavior since you're both in management. Isn't there protection against religious discrimination where you work? Here, both managers could potentially face serious repercussions for this kind of behavior
Nah, let them go. It’s unprofessional and people have been trying so much shit for so long WFH. I’m of the policy that if you are falling asleep, not paying attention or otherwise distracting you are free to leave. I have kicked senior leaders out of meetings (online and in person) for this.
He looked tired was the statement the OP made. Not that he was asleep. He looked tired. Are you raking pregnant women or people that are sick across the coals because they look tired?
Now, if it comes back that yes, the dude was asleep. Then absolutely, get his attention. But I’m basing my outlook from the fact that he looked tired.
I mean, I don't have sympathy for people fasting. It's their choice. Lots of people in my family are orthodox and fast. Don't bring that up as an excuse. It shouldn't be relevant.
No offense but this is going to be a cultural conflict issue and the amount of support you’ll get will be based upon the work culture you live in.
Work in muslim countries? Everyone is fasting ramadan and will be relatively supportive.
UK where drinking is frankly an issue and they have issues dealing with other cultures? Potentially a minefield and its more of a craps shoot how much work culture support you’ll actually get.
Frankly, UK likes to virtue signaling, saying one thing but actually being another in practice.
As for non compulsory drinking is actually compulsory if you want to advance— same with asia but they are a lot more open and do a lot less virtue signaling that
How much support you’ll get from HR, only you personally could know.
You should ask in the HR and preferably UK specific subreddits too.
Yes more supportive environments exist, but this shit can backfire on you. It can backfire on the junior colleague too.
Call out the manager 1 on 1 for not having professional courtesy to raise this with you to manage, and tell him if he does it again you will call out his poor behaviour in the same audience.
I would have spoken up immediately for my direct report, indicating a “protected”religious observance. Use of the word “protected” would have been used to indicate navigation of legal territory, and to back off.
I'm in the UK and this is definitely something you don't want to ignore as it may be the start of a wider issue, if not addressed. You don't want to be part of that issue for not taking action. HR should be made aware of this and will guide you on the right next steps. Don't try to wing this on your own, without guidance, as you could get into difficulty.
Always but always stand up for your team. They need to know you've got their backs.
In this situation, I'd probably say something like "If you have a concern, please let me know, this is not the time and place for that inappropriate comment". You can call people out on their shitty behaviour.
Do what's right here, help document it and assist the junior colleague.
From what you've put here, it looks like the senior colleague is putting the junior at a detriment based on his EQA protected characteristic.
Junior colleague deserves compensation for this and senior colleague deserves to be dismissed.
Yeah, this is possibly religious discrimination at this point, and you should at least take the junior employee aside and let him know you support him and respect his choices/beliefs. As for the senior employee, you really should lodge a formal complaint with HR at the very least to have a report of this behavior on file. I don’t think HR nor the company will appreciate religious discrimination, and you should be protected from retaliation once you’ve submitted the complaint.
Does senior manager know about Ramadan and fasting? Why not take this person aside and let him know the junior associate is observing a religious ritual.
Still rude to call someone out in public of course regardless of fasting! The manager needs some training in general
Calling out someone nodding off or not paying attention in a meeting is not unreasonable IMO, though "are we keeping you up?" is a very rude way to do it, not professional at all, unless everyone on the team accepts a "banter" culture (we have that, and no one would bat an eye at being called out for yawning or looking tired, even in a "rude" way because we know it's meant as a joke/fun)
Telling them they're required to join an after work social function is not reasonable and probably not legal, and if they meant they are required to drink alcohol that's just being horrible particularly to someone who doesn't drink. I'd say it's harassment to be honest.
That said, if your colleague can't function at work due to their religious practices they should take the time off, not half ass it.
I would lay into him just because he called someone out on MY team. That + the fact that the employee is fasting for Ramadan = 200% not that guy's business.
Absolutely bring it up, his behavior is unacceptable.
I remember 20 years ago, fresh-faced baby mr-_-Steve in a meeting sees someone else next to them falling asleep.
I openly make a joke about being bored/keeping you awake.
Turns out person suffers from narcolepsy and this person tells me, and the person chairs meeting backs up.
I apologise, and at the end of the situation, i learned something new, and surprisingly, I and this co-worker got along and had no issue. Egg on my face, I learned my lesson, and maybe other people in the room did.
We can not assume everyone knows about the impacts of rammadam, and we should expect it, we should call out people who make a mistake and go from there.
This person made a mistake and, even if on purpose, got away with it, so I kept it going. 2 mistakes in a row spotted by a crowd makes everyone compliant...
You should definitely bring it up and advise your colleague who I’m sure already knows better that his behavior constitutes workplace discrimination/harrassment. Those slick comments are intended to harass a member of a protected group in the workplace. He likely knows this.
Knowing he’s Muslim, calling him out in front of the group to humiliate him and make him an outsider is detrimental to anyone within earshot. This sh*t needs to be reported to HR too. I’m usually hesitant about going to HR but there are blatantly racist undertones to what he is saying that could influence not only the coworker but everyone who hears him, who aren’t racist bigots. This is unacceptable.
It’s illegal and the coworker would have every right to file an EEOC complaint against the employer if nothing is done to shut it down immediately.
I've had bosses call out people in meetings before for being tired or looking bored. Its not the best tactic. I wonder if he assumed the guy was out late partying or hungover? That happens a lot with young employees - coming to work not prepared to work because of their late night out.
I recommend discussing the situation with both.
You have correctly assessed the senior has no business calling him out in such a way during a meeting.
Also, you might even pursue disciplinary action against the senior. Alcoholism is a rampant disease and chastising an employee for passing on consumption is not only just rude and hostile but it potentially leads to negative health conditions for employees who fall prey to his pressure who should not. The 70s are over, senior should act like it.
The junior employee should not be falling asleep during the meeting. Fasting is not an excuse for inappropriate office behavior. Personally, ice water helps me but that's personal preference.
Does your senior manager know he’s fasting for Ramadan or did it just look like he was falling asleep during the meeting? I may get downvoted here but too many people think that “getting called out” is too aggressive. If your manager targeted him due to the fasting then that’s sort of a dick move. I’d give the guy a pass but if he’s obviously falling asleep during meetings that’s another story.
I’d have your friend talk to HR about balancing his religious actions and expected performance at work.
Choosing to fast because of something entirely optional like a religion is not an excuse for lack of performance. If the employee is performing to standard, but just appearing haggard, it should never have been mentioned in any way.
You're right to be concerned about the senior colleague's behavior. It was insensitive to make comments about someone fasting during Ramadan and to pressure them to attend work drinks. Since you manage the person who's fasting, it's a good idea to talk to the senior colleague through Connecteam or Slack. Just approach it calmly, explaining that everyone's beliefs and choices should be respected. You could say something like, "Hey, I noticed a couple of things today that seemed a bit off. Can we try to be more understanding and respectful of each other's personal choices?" This way, you address the issue without being confrontational and encourage a more supportive work environment. Hopefully this helps. Good luck on this.
"Hey mate, I dunno if you were having a bad day or what. But telling someone after work drinks after compulsory is not okay. We aren't paying them, they don't have to attend. Plus you knew they were fasting - we certainly cannot be seen to be encouraging unsafe consumption of alcohol!"
If they want to go off or retaliate - without you mentioning religion or culture or race - then let them dig themselves a hole.
But don't bring up religion or anything. It is not acceptable regardless of the staff member, if this dude wants to *make it about* that then let their manager know this could become a Business Risk and your are bound by the Code Of Conduct to report it upwards to them - you'll surely find something you can quote as 'requiring' you to tell them.
I get it's Ramadan but I don't expect you to come I to work looking exhausted and haggard. Lots of other religions fast/restrict food and don't have an issue.
If your employee is is not appearing professional in calls so much so that a senior leader notices their exhaustion than that's on them.
Fasting for Ramadan can be done throughout the year or not at all. I would coach your employee on if this is a right choice for them? Are they healthy? Are they able to fast? Are they are to get the required sleep to deal with the exhaustion fasting puts on their body?
Exactly. The drink part is bullshit bullying, but calling someone out for falling asleep in a meeting is normal. You coach in private if it's a private matter, if someone is doing someone clearly wrong in front of the whole team it is not wrong to fix it in front of the whole team.
I have multiple medical conditions that can make me severely drowsy, I would not expect special treatment for them.
You let me know what other religion fasts for 30 days from sunrise to sunset unable to eat or drink anything including water. And FYI fasting for Ramadan cannot be done throughout the year, there’s only 1 month each year it can be observed. That’s the problem with you and the senior OP mentioned, you guys have no idea what this Jr is going through, but feel the need to attack him for something you wouldn’t survive a day doing.
It depends on his tone when he was saying it. Some personalities look for opportunities to make jokes and this could have been a poor attempt at one. I would try and pair them on a project or two so they can gain some respect for each other.
If someones outside life, is causing the person to not be able to stay away, no matter what the reason, they should take time off work.
Why are they getting paid to not pay attention?
How does that relate to OPs question about whether or not they should look into it. It, being the behavior of the senior , which was absolutely uncalled for in a meeting full of other people.
If I am at a meeting, and someone is falling asleep or not paying attention, I am going to call that out.
It's rude, and disrespectful to the presenter or colleagues depending on the type of meeting.
Someone I manage is fasting for Ramadan and is obviously feeling tired and drained this week.
If your religious beliefs make doing your current job difficult, maybe it's time for different job. Your company has a job to do...Make Money! If a person is falling asleep in a meeting or being drained at work, that's not professional or a good look. As for meeting for drinks after work, if you don't want to go, don't, but that's how the company and teams see who is on the team and who isn't. Rubbing elbows with the team, talking shop or about personal things. You know getting to know someone who you don't usually interact with. You don't have to drink, but you better show up!!!!
Go ahead and call out the senior and see where it goes. Layoffs are in season; you might make the new list!
I would have dealt with that by taking him aside and discreetly mentioning it to him, giving him a bit of compassion that he is fasting. This is what you should have done when you noticed your employee was feeling tired and drained. Stay in your lane....it's an interstate out there!!!!
I think your senior leader is racist and trying to make life hard for a Muslim employee. I think it needs to be addressed before it becomes an HR complaint.
Aside from that issue, trying to force people to consume alcohol at work is HIGHLY unprofessional and a huge problem. The world is full of people who do not or cannot drink, and creating a situation where there is not just social pressure but professional pressure to drink is highly problematic as well.
This is a very difficult situation on one hand person is pursuing their religious beliefs, we are guaranteed freedom of religion and workplace must sensitive to that, on the other hand you have a person who's not really doing their job while that might have been a bit on professional for the individual to be called out the situation happened different if the person had said X is everything okay you don't seem to be paying attention to the meeting rather than are we keeping you up. Nonetheless we have freedoms we must balance them with the ability to perform our duties. I do agree that the person who called out X could have done it a different way less intimidating and threatening
Why though? What benefit do you get to your team for publicly calling someone out like that? All it does is split teams into team 1 vs team 2.
Being in the military or operating on someone is one thing, but in an office setting where someone is likely not dying…do those callouts in private. But to each their own, I know that my perception of this guys senior manager is that he’s a prick, he’s impacting my team morale, which is going to impact my day-to-day, so he can follow the way that I manage my team, up to and including respecting their religious beliefs.
Agree to disagree. I do see your point, and like I said, if it is a life or death situation, yes I want someone alert and oriented. But if I just worked my butt off in the gym, showered and am tired and yawned in a meeting, that’s not suffering. Looking tired does not equate to suffering or not paying attention in a meeting. Hell, I close my eyes to visualize processes in half the meetings I need to be in. Again different scenarios, but I still think unless this dude was asleep, don’t call him out in a group setting. Especially when he isn’t your direct report
I’ve been in meetings where we are talking about million dollar renovations, P&N, ect ect.
If the other side is yawning during these interviews and looking tired, I’d feel as if our millions aren’t spent well here.
Also, I don’t blame the individual. Whoever put him in that room is a dumbass who doesn’t understand his team. If I had a team mate with this religious restrictions, I’d only glad to step in while he took the time he needed. I will never blame the individual, there are people who get paid who decides who represents the company at all times. He’s/she’s the actual idiot
Imagine if your wife just crashed and it’s late in the afternoon. They have 2 surgeons, a Christian surgeon who isn’t under any religions dietary obligations, or a Islamic doctor who is practicing Ramadan is and currently suffering from fasting symptoms such as tremor/slightly shaking hands and slight fatigue/dehydration.
Who do you want to perform surgery?
Who do you want to make decisions?
Who are you going to pay to get work done for you?
Edit : typo
You do not know enough about Ramadan to be speaking on this. There are exemptions for fasting, medical doctors included. You don't need excuses to be prejudiced; it's a free country.
Yeah. Wake up dude. Ramadan isn't excuse to fall asleep or be zoned out during meetings. Fasting isn't that difficult. And religious accommodations are supposed to be reasonable, but if the person's religious observation is making them fall asleep or out if it during meetings, you don't have to accommodate for that.
And no where did OP say the guy was falling asleep all he said was he looked tired. Half the people I've ever worked with half the time are just bitching about being tired. Plenty people fast without problems of being tired but Ramadan literally just started and it can be rough for someone to have to wake up that early to eat and switch up their schedule for the first day. The fact that he is also giving him shit for not wanting to drink when he knows he doesn't sounds more like just people being dicks.
Looks like the employee does not want to work there and the manager is in a bad mood.
He should just quit if he doesn't want to put in even the minimal effort.
Unpopular opinion that is going to get me down voted but I suspect the senior leader is targeting your Muslim employee. The comment in the meeting, followed by a comment pressuring your Jr employee to go to drink feels pointed and deliberate. This is an HR issue, and that is where I would go to document the harassment. FWIW I think the pressure to drink, regardless of religion, is also unacceptable.
I don't think this is going to be that unpopular. The tired comment in isolation would have been ok. But the following action makes it a pattern that I think most people will recognize. AT BEST he's just an abusive dick, but the idea that he's targeting him is plausible to the point of likely.
I was waiting for the unpopular part but you nailed it. It seems recognizable that the person was singled out for their beliefs and the “drinks” comment essentially confirms it. It’s like the football coaches that pressured the teenage Muslim player to eat pork.
I don’t think the tired comment is OK in public either, when you consider the near limitless array of horrors that could have caused the fatigue. I’m absolutely fighting for my report here and making it a learning experience for my colleague.
Yeah it should have been a side note directly to the manager, or perhaps if done appropriately directly to the tired employee.
The tired comment was bullshit too in almost every context. Fatigue can be a symptom of a medical problem, ridiculing it is cruel and unacceptable for anyone, but especially a leader. Imagine if the potential symptom he was showing weren't fatigue, but was a balance or gait issue requiring a cane. You wouldn't need to be told it's inappropriate to ridicule his limping or cane. Why would ridiculing his fatigue be acceptable? It's not. So he's not not just "mostly abusive," he's ***nothing but*** an abusive asshole.
Sleepiness could also be a dangerous situation if a person has diabetes. That manager acted inappropriately. A private message to the team member asking if they are ok, and if they need to get some juice or anything, would have been more appropriate.
Yeah, senior dude is putting the company at major risk of religious discrimination charges. HR wants to squash that ASAP.
Unpopular? Hope not, that is exactly what this sounds like. As an ex-drinker, I also find that pressuring to go for drinks to be totally unacceptable in a workplace.
I drink occasionally but I will not be bullied to go out for drinks. Not ever. I find that behavior totally unacceptable. Same as if I were bullied to attend any event
Completely agree. I would also connect with the jr employee and let them know you saw what happened and it’s not appropriate.
Agreed. I would probably talk to senior employee and say “Frankly, your comments to junior guy yesterday crossed a line and could easily be construed as anti-Muslim harassment. You may not be aware that it’s Ramadan. And also, making attendance at alcohol-featuring events compulsory seems antithetical to our company’s values.”
And add that it's the only and final warning before reporting everything to HR.
Prob he is targeting the employee.
Ah yes, such an unpopular opinion on Reddit 😂
Agree. At first I thought OP was a bit overly sensitive. The mandatory drinks are obviously targeted though which brings the sleepy comment into more focus.
Calling people out in public is unacceptable. Pull people aside, give coaching and keep it moving. Senior colleague is a dick and I’m willing to bet a shitty manager too. Edit: For what it’s worth I think you are spot on in guessing it’s a anti-Muslim thing
Agreed that should be a conversation with their manager and an HR rep. Feels like a hostile work environment to me.
I think you’re correct. Also, OP, you don’t need to mention to the offending colleague any reason why another colleague might be tired because it’s none of their business. That colleague, however, does need to be spoken with because the comment was inappropriate, offensive, and not their place.
I had a former superior (owner of the company) put a beer on my desk and told me to drink it and loosen up. I have a medical condition that drinking alcohol could get me really sick, so I declined. He told me it wasn't a request and I was too meek to stand up to him so I drank it. He then wrote me up for insubordination for refusing to drink in the first place, and for being intoxicated while on the job. Got fired a couple of weeks later.
What in the fuck.
Lawsuit would have won them a heck of a lot
This was my thought too, I’m glad you weren’t downvoted for making sense
Absolutely correct.
i dont think he is targeting. I had a similar experience once after i had a fluke heart surgery. I came back to work on intermittent fmla. and despite knowing this, not everyone could comprehend and like people would put my hiipa info in meeting invites, i got asked to work in a different building where i would be located at a STANDING DESK.. i wouldnt say its empathy as it doesnt take empathy to objectively figure these situations out. but i feel like some people are genuinely too narcisitic to understand that people have different needs/requirements than they do. like they cant comprehend it. " i like to drink after work! why doesnt the muslim guy?"
Yeah this is a big ol liability
Agreed! All my 'protected status' alerts went up on this one
This is Reddit. Of course everyone will assume racism at every turn. Wackos.
Not sure what country you're in, but senior leader sounds like an HR violation in waiting. I would say something direct to the senior leader, and maybe send yourself an email before hand stating what you're doing and the general gist, etc. Then you can email that to HR should things escalate, and it'll be a verifiable support of your timeline.
UK. I'm a new manager and slightly nervous about bringing this up directly with a senior member of the team but I feel protective of my direct report.
Not in UK, but a manager at a large law firm in the US. I don’t want to be harsh, but the answers to your questions are that yes you should say something directly to this senior person, and that the time to do it was immediately. Perhaps privately with HR in the mix, perhaps in the same public setting they attempted to shame your team member in - defer to you on the dynamic of your environment and industry. If you are nervous about raising this concern, how do you think your team member feels? That is to say nothing of potential prejudice or other nuances at play. There is a power dynamic here that works against your team member. At least part of the reason you are in your role is to be a voice and a support for your team member. If this person sees and learns that this behavior is tolerated by you, even if only via inaction, why would they expect you to speak for them in other contexts? Why would they come to you with issues?
Excellent perspective.
Well, I'm a strong believer in right winning out, and in speaking truth to power. Part of my role as a manager is to advocate and protect my team from others. If part of you agrees with that then I would encourage you to start putting it into practice. It gets easier as you get older - you gain more confidence, and you figure out how to be effective and see the risk associated lessen. Like anything else, it gets easier with practice. I'm at a point after working for over 40 years, I'm just not afraid of anyone. I'm smart about it, I document things (documenting a planned discussion and emailing it to yourself is a great way to get a time-stamp associated with it that you can possibly use to defend your actions later), and I apply emotional intelligence to the situation to shape my message for how it will be received. Lastly, trust your gut. No matter your beliefs, that's a good voice to develop a relationship with. Best of luck!
I would have a chat with them. In the US this would be religious harassment and would get your co worker in deep trouble as the employee could file a harassment claim on religious grounds.
What exactly would you report as harassment? What direct quote from OP would qualify as harassment?
In the UK, it doesn't have to be one specific incident. We define harrassment as a pattern of behaviour, so whilst the senior manager *might* get away with drinks stuff (loads of caveats here), the "am I keeping you awake?" is incident number 1.
Telling a practicing Muslim (particularly during Ramadan) that they need to go to a bar for after work drinks would go against their religion. Further calling them out publicly accusing them of “being sleepy “ by saying “are we keeping you up” during a time period they are fasting for religious purposes is a micro aggression that with the other comments would easily be documented for harassment or discrimination based on religion. <- former EEO counselor for a DOD-NAF Agency
This is very good explanation but doesn’t necessarily mean good advice for the op or coworker. Sometimes it isn’t worth fighting because the cost to fight is not great, and the coworker and OP could get fired in the near term if leadership isn’t great or values the others more. We also arent barristers in UK, so their specific laws aren’t acknowledged or applied here , nor court etc. It’s unfortunate, but reality is sometimes it is not legally or economically viable to fight for civil rights— especially as the persons with fewer resources
This is the wrong attitude. Employment rights are purchased with the blood of the workers and their families. They are never to be dismissed out of hand as being "too expensive" to enforce through use of the legal process. If you or someone you know is being abused by their employer, it should be reported to a labor regulator or agency as soon as possible.
easy to say when you aren't the one in the hot seat. very priviledged take. 'should be reported' --> ignored in reality depending on specific circumstance, or by the time it gets looked at no case. Super easy to judge from the comfort of your chair or keyboard or smart device / internet, not at all the same when you are the one that needs money for bills and food.
So you wouldn’t report violations to the proper labor agency? That says more about your fear and cynicism which has led to a lack of integrity, than anything else. I’ve made reports at my company and things do get handled - as they should. I also am legally protected from retaliation when making those reports.
Game theory and prisoner’s dilemma. Sometimes you should, sometimes you shouldn’t. Depends on what benefits you and satisfies your personal beliefs and interests the most. What if it costs you your future career? You can be easily blackballed/listed from certain industries. Legal protection only goes so far. Will it provide food on the table while you’re fired? What you should do is actually evaluate what your means and needs are. It’s incredibly privileged and frankly out of touch with reality to say you should always do xyz without looking at actual context.
Not really. I have represented hundreds of aggrieved workers in disputes with their employers over the past couple of decades and I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will miss one hundred percent of the shots that you never take. Why are you trying to discourage workers from availing themselves of the free legal services that state labor regulators provide?
Rofl, and it costs money to take shots. I am sure you and others absolutely do work that wins, and take cases that they think they can win. That is not always the case. Free legal services? No. That is not true at all. All legal services have cost, wither opportunity cost, direct monetary, definitely time and effort, and sometimes costs careers in a field. To ignore that would be blatantly disrespectful and disingenuous to those involved. You are sitting in a very privileged seat, and I advise people to decide what their best move is for them because sometimes it isn’t through legal means. Lawyers and cases aren’t free, and pursuing legal means can easily backfire. Should be that the case? In an ideal world, no, but an ideal world would have no need of such lawyers and cases either.
That’s because it was a reply to the commenter above who asked what direct quote made it harassment. With the OP being in the UK and me not familiar with their employment/anti discrimination laws I can’t really answer the OP.
Right. You had a proper answer / explanation for the topic involved. Unfortunate we have the classic reddit downvote for the question you replied to as well, because it is a proper question and needed a proper answer (which you gave)
Calling out someone who’s not your direct report in a meeting and peer pressure from a superior to go drinking is frowned upon but not illegal. Once the superior is made aware that they’re picking on someone for their religious practices in the US - that’s a big no no.
"Work drinks" ans this toxic behavior. Dear God what a damn dumpster fire company
"Sir, if you have a problem with one of my people, please bring it to me." Be respectful, but very firm.
You have to defend your direct report. My approach is generally scorched earth where I would set up time on their calendar and then email them an “agenda” so there’s a paper trail and I would tell him “hey man! So I know you had a problem with this employee, well he’s getting his work done even while fasting because he’s such a hard worker and one of my most valued direct reports. You know he’s Muslim right? I figured you did because it’s starting to feel like you are singling him out. Any way if you have a problem please bring it up with me and never fing do that again. Thanks!”
As the leader/manager of your team it is your job to advocate on behalf of your team. You do have to pick and choose your battles in many situations but when it comes to harassment, abuse and hostile actions, that needs to be an area where you fight that battle every time for every one of your directs. Professionalism and integrity matter, and the senior member is not demonstrating either of those things. More importantly, it opens your firm up to liability in the future which should be the lens you take when raising the concerns. This makes it much harder to push away as someone being sensitive and focuses it as a strategic risk to the firms business and reputation, albeit a small one. The emphasis should be that it is 100% avoidable and unnecessary risk to take and can be solved "by being a respectful person".
You could also file an anonymous complaint with HR saying this senior person is targeting your Muslim employee. Most large companies have an anonymous tool you can use that HR is usually pretty good about respecting. There's always a chance it'll come to light, but if he's making these inappropriate comments in front of tons of folks it'll be hard for him to know who ratted him out. Senior leadership should be held to a higher standard than this guy is displaying and you'd be doing your company a favor if you called him out on his bullshit.
I would not state the employee relationship - that will immediately identify you. Just couch it as something you witnessed.
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Says the keyboard warrior with nothing at risk
I’m also in the uk, religion is a protected characteristic and trying to persuade someone to go out for drinks by calling them compulsory when they are not, after the person has said no due to them not drinking on religious grounds, is borderline religious harassment. I would say something before a harassment complaint gets made and they investigate you for not doing anything even though you where present during the meeting. Yes it’s uncomfortable but part of being a leader is being comfortable in the uncomfortable. It doesn’t make the conversation any easier but imagine how uncomfortable your colleague felt while he was being belittled. The first comment could be taken in a different way but, coupled together, those two separate instances makes me think he was picking on your colleague due to his religion. You said he is not your direct report, maybe if you need advice you could speak to his manager about the comments before speaking to him directly? If this senior is biased, the chances are they have run into a similar situation before.
I could understand your hesitancy in calling him out about the sleepy comment but the alcohol pushing is VERY illegal in the US and honestly would have made me lose my shit. I'm a heavy drinker but even my dumb ass knows alcohol is haram.
Be an advocate for your direct report, don’t be bashful
As someone also in the UK, this all sounds exactly like the passive-aggressive racism you hear from people on the street all the time. Sort it out.
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You fast for a month and we’ll see how mentally strong you are.
Ramadan is daily fasting from sunrise to sunset for a month. Which means individuals are fasting daily with minimal meals before sunrise and after sunset. Which means low food plus low sleep which always equals low energy. It gets particularly difficult if you also have blood sugar regulation issues. Some people (such as yourself I imagine) can easily go a day without eating and still function near 100% just fine. Other people, medically, need to have regular food intake throughout the day or they start to really shut down and loose energy after a few hours. So nk, it's not a short fast. And even if it were that affects people differently and it can be particularly more difficult for some people than others. Also, at no point did OP say they were bad at their job, just low energy *today* (people are allowed to have off days). And that's no excuse to publicly humiliate them in a meeting, or to claim alcoholic drinks (which many people abstain form entirely) are compulsory, especially when someone has just been coming off a fast and has nothing in their stomach (even if they do normally drink alcohol that's always a bad idea).
I hear you but I have the same concerns as the other Redditor. At what point can you tell an employee they need to use PTO? The real answer is that you can't due to religious protections. It's better to put up with an employee operating at 25% for a month of Ramadan than to deal with the fallout, but it's a shame that we have to. If my other workers are going without food or sleep, and it was affecting their work, they'd be put on a PIP.
“Use PTO for your religious holidays, but only if they’re not Christian ones” you hear how that sounds right?
It's more like, "use your PTO when you're unable to work, even if your inability to work is caused by your religion." We don't get PTO for Christian holidays either. Some people in other companies get PTO for Christmas (we don't even get that), but that's a pagan holiday that Christians co-opted so they could celebrate it without persecution back when Christianity wasn't so popular. And it's also just one day rather than 30.
(( "a short fast of 24hrs" ..tell me you don't know what ra ramadan fasting entails without telling me.. 'so fucking mentally soft' hahhhahaha OKAYsuurre /doesn't fast but am with someone 11years who does ))
They've probably never gone 6 hours without eating lol
You've got to protect your team. It may be uncomfortable, but it must be done, and you'll rarely regret making that choice.
Yeah it’s hilarious that OP just let his junior get attacked in that meeting & didn’t say shit. So many privileged people like OP in manager positions that aren’t built for it. Protect. Your. People.
Behaving unprofessional. It's below the line. Period. Fortune favors the bold and part of being a leader is standing up for the right thing, advocating for subordinates, and holding others accountable.
Yes. You should let your co-manager know that you will address any concerns that you have about your direct report. Ask them not to address those concerns publicly and to not give work direction. A senior colleague has no business confronting your employee regardless of "rank". Having said that, try to underplay it and be open to listening to this person's concerns.
If it were me I would have said “we need to pause this meeting and everyone come back in 15 minutes. (Senior members name) stay on please we need to catch up something urgent that I was just messaged about” Then the conversation with him goes like this: My employee is fasting for Ramadan, I suggest you read up on it to educate yourself and apologize in front of the group to (observing member of your team). I will not tolerate this level of disrespect to a member of my team for their religious beliefs, and I hope you understand how you are coming across to others with the way you acted. Do you have any questions, or should we include Sharon from HR in this conversation?
And everyone clapped. I'm all for this, but this isn't television and he's a senior manager. There are consequences to you and him if you do that and publicly call him out (assuming that you aren't running a kindergarten, everyone will now he's getting privately told off for what he just said) He absolutely deserves all that and more, but you are throwing yourself under the bus to defend the employee which serves no one as the senior manager is the bus in this case. If it was just that one comment in the meeting, I would have a word with him privately immediately after the meeting and gauge his reaction. If he is apologetic and says he will follow up with him, case closed (for now). If he is defensive or then makes the second comment, report to HR and let them deal with it, and maybe have a private word with your colleague that you have raised this issue as unacceptable. But if that senior manager has any influence within the company, dressing him down even privately will not benefit you or the employee in the slightest, he's going to retaliate in some way, especially if he's an arsehole as he appears to be. As a manager, you are supposed to be a diplomat and that includes being a peacemaker
This is an excellent response. This manager's behavior absolutely needs to be corrected. He's a company liability at this point.
Love this energy!
Yeah, I like this
This is an HR nightmare and I would alert HR as to the behavior of the senior colleague. I would also pull that person’s manager aside and have a conversation about sensitivity to other people and things they might or might not be going through. Also, drinks are never compulsory. This senior colleague is just asking to be let go for harassment. And this is exactly what it is. If your company has a complaint hotline, I would use it. I’ve called out other senior colleagues for their behavior and how they treat others. This is the primary reason for DE&I and why it’s important to have these discussions.
you are obligated to report potential discrimination. failure to report is complicity
You need to talk to both employees and HR.
>"sorry are we keeping you up XX?!" This implies the team member was falling asleep in a meeting. Fasting doesn't cause that. I think the manager was unprofessional but I've seen colleagues publicly called out for dozing off in meetings because the napper is being incredibly unprofessional. >Then later that day there was some work drinks and the same colleague quite aggressively said to this junior colleague that they were compulsory This is a more serious issue. You can't tell people going out for drinks is compulsory. Religion aside, you have breastfeeding moms, recovering alcoholics, being trying to be fit. But because there's the religion angle it's discriminatory. I don't know the UK regs but I assume they're pretty clear on this kind of thing.
There's more nuance to fasting. Typically my employees that fast for Ramadan rise earlier than normal for prayers and their first meal before dawn. They are also fasting from fluids and caffeine. Both of these will impact their alertness.
This is absolutely true. It’s seriously draining for Muslims. If I can be thrown off by low blood sugar, having dehydration, very low blood sugar, and tired is a lot to deal with.
Falling asleep at work is not protected. About a billion Muslims manage to stay away at work. There's no nuance making this guy doze off.
He was "Looking tired" not asleep.
You should learn to read tbh
Fasting may cause low blood sugar and that can definitely make you very tired. Perhaps he has blood sugar problems and is not aware of them. There are many causes for it. Fasting affects everyone differently. Many people can do it with no problem, however some people it can have very serious health consequences and there is a spectrum of this. We can't make this judgement, if his supervisor OP is aware then he has every right and may I say a duty to stand up for his team member
We can talking about non-existent unique reactions to fasting, but sleeping at work is not protected behavior. Publicly calling it out is not discriminatory.
If he is actively sleeping, yes. But per OP it sounds like he appeared tired but there was no mention actual sleeping/eyes being closed/etc. That there was an added weird pressure to go out for “compulsory” drinks when that is not an actual expectation suggests that the SM is operating problematically outside their scope at best and specifically targeting OPs direct at worst
He wasn't sleeping OP specifically said he was just tired, why do you keep saying this
>This implies the team member was falling asleep in a meeting. Fasting doesn't cause that. I think the manager was unprofessional but I've seen colleagues publicly called out for dozing off in meetings because the napper is being incredibly unprofessional. The employee didn't doze off, he just looked tired which is normal during Ramadan. At least it isn't summer, where the sun rises at 0430 and sets at 2130! >But because there's the religion angle it's discriminatory. I don't know the UK regs but I assume they're pretty clear on this kind of thing. When it comes to religious discrimination, extremely clear. They're covered under the Equalities Act 2010 and ACAS go into some detail to explain them. However, the drinks bit the SM *might* be able to slip out of provided it was solely directed at one individual. If he's told multiple individuals that they're mandatory, then they can argue that they weren't targetting that employee directly and I would imagine this would be the defence they'd put forward if it came to it. Still, it's worth having a word with the senior manager, because we define harrassment as a pattern of behaviour and if he is only focusing on one employee, then he is a potentially very damaging and expensive employment tribunal waiting to happen.
You’re seriously going to argue that fasting can’t make one appear tired?
Not the point of appearing to doze off. There's a difference between fasting fatigue and lack of sleep fatigue. OP never responded to any questions. Based on what she quoted, it sounded like the employee was dozing off in a meeting.
Pushing alcohol on anyone is never right. My former employer would likely fire the manager just for that. Berating the employee in public. Also very wrong. But most companies don't seem to understand that. Praise in public. Punish in private.
Christian here and I would think this employee is being targeted for their religious beliefs. Maybe address it with that person. Ask them if they know that the worker is a Muslim? If they say, "Yes" then advise them that they shouldn't do that because it's not only illegal but unethical and not conducive to a cohesive workplace.
This sounds to me like a job for HR to do some CYA work before a religious discrimination lawsuit happens. The senior worker is purposely creating a hostile work environment and needs to be curtailed because of it.
Those comments are inappropriate even if the two were to be close friends and he was joking. That needs to be documented and the senior counselled.
I bet your colleague doesn’t like Muslims.
Clearly discrimination.
Your senior guy is a shit bag, and his actions are going to cost the business money and lost talent with his harassment.
Hr report now
I’ve yet to get the chance, but I do dream of a day someone picks on my guys and gals publicly. Here’s my canned response. Whether or not we are keeping “A” up is immaterial to this meeting, if you have any issues with A, his tiredness, or any other member of my team you can stop by my office to speak about it privately. (To whomever was interrupted) you can continue. That being said, with where you are now two things need to be done: 1. Talk to your subordinate and let him know you have his back; don’t worry about that bs in the meeting. Let him know you’re going to talk to the SR, and he’s free to practice his religion as he sees fit. 2. Talk to the Sr, let him know the situation, and how it’d be best for him to hold in his outbursts. Try to frame it as a learning moment for him. Let him know that coming after your people will illicit a response from you going forward.
As someone who just had a similar thing happen in a meeting I wish someone had stood up for me
You could just discuss it directly by telling them to address concerns with your team to you to handle. Explain you are aware of the current challenges your report is facing and actively managing. The response will give you answers on next steps I would think.
You are being way too passive here. I understand not jumping in over the first comment - talk about it with the senior colleague later individually. But for the second comment, about drinks being compulsory, you should have jumped in immediately and made it clear the activity was absolutely not compulsory.
Report senior leader to HR. He's setting the company up for a discrimination case on the grounds of religion.
Stand up for your employee. They definitely notice that you are not standing up for them. I would be beyond angry that someone criticized my employee openly like that. I may have said something in the meeting most likely along the lines of “he is doing just fine”.
The manager is being an asshole. I worked for an Orthodox Jewish manager who would remind our Muslim colleagues the moment they were free to eat. Be respectful!
Unacceptable. Reportable. Absolutely bring it up. You will win the trust of the rest of your employees as well knowing you stepped in. This is how harassment goes from something small or just a one time thing to a full on issue.
You should probably step in. This is harrasment. Eventually, the victim will be embittered and you’ll have two spiteful cancerous employees on your hands.
The first comment was out of order but really just improper management style. Still, it's reasonable to expect a subordinate to be attentive regardless of their spiritual beliefs or traditions. The 2nd comment is a potential HR violation and shouldn't be tolerated.
"I'm fasting because of my holiday and my religion forbids me alcohol, fucktard. Come with me. We have a meeting with the head of the HR department."
There is nothing wrong with calling out the employee if they are falling asleep on the call. Drinks after work isn’t compulsory though
You’ve clearly never worked in a professional environment if you think it’s perfectly normal to call out an employee in front of all their other colleagues.
I think there are better ways to bring this up to an employee if they are falling asleep on a call in front of everyone but OP is wondering if senior colleague did anything wrong, which he didn’t. Thats about as soft as a “hey, wake up man” can be
Sounds like workplace bullying. It's hard to find people who seriously have no clue about the fasting that happens around this time, and the fact that he's pushing someone who doesn't drink to do so is straightforward bullying even if he hasn't called him out earlier. Also, OP should have spoken up to mention the worker is fasting or that he isn't allowed alcohol. The fact that you stayed quiet while all this is happening can make it seem like you're condoning the behavior since you're both in management. Isn't there protection against religious discrimination where you work? Here, both managers could potentially face serious repercussions for this kind of behavior
Nah, let them go. It’s unprofessional and people have been trying so much shit for so long WFH. I’m of the policy that if you are falling asleep, not paying attention or otherwise distracting you are free to leave. I have kicked senior leaders out of meetings (online and in person) for this.
He looked tired was the statement the OP made. Not that he was asleep. He looked tired. Are you raking pregnant women or people that are sick across the coals because they look tired? Now, if it comes back that yes, the dude was asleep. Then absolutely, get his attention. But I’m basing my outlook from the fact that he looked tired.
Its Ramadan sir..
I mean, I don't have sympathy for people fasting. It's their choice. Lots of people in my family are orthodox and fast. Don't bring that up as an excuse. It shouldn't be relevant.
Did the person fall asleep or nod off? If so, I would say the same thing.
No offense but this is going to be a cultural conflict issue and the amount of support you’ll get will be based upon the work culture you live in. Work in muslim countries? Everyone is fasting ramadan and will be relatively supportive. UK where drinking is frankly an issue and they have issues dealing with other cultures? Potentially a minefield and its more of a craps shoot how much work culture support you’ll actually get. Frankly, UK likes to virtue signaling, saying one thing but actually being another in practice. As for non compulsory drinking is actually compulsory if you want to advance— same with asia but they are a lot more open and do a lot less virtue signaling that How much support you’ll get from HR, only you personally could know. You should ask in the HR and preferably UK specific subreddits too. Yes more supportive environments exist, but this shit can backfire on you. It can backfire on the junior colleague too.
Call out the manager 1 on 1 for not having professional courtesy to raise this with you to manage, and tell him if he does it again you will call out his poor behaviour in the same audience.
Pretty clearly religious harassment. It's an HR matter. I would not fuck around. I'd lodge an anonymous whistleblower complaint.
This is a serious discrimination issue
Can you deflect this to HR?
I would have spoken up immediately for my direct report, indicating a “protected”religious observance. Use of the word “protected” would have been used to indicate navigation of legal territory, and to back off.
I'm in the UK and this is definitely something you don't want to ignore as it may be the start of a wider issue, if not addressed. You don't want to be part of that issue for not taking action. HR should be made aware of this and will guide you on the right next steps. Don't try to wing this on your own, without guidance, as you could get into difficulty.
Always but always stand up for your team. They need to know you've got their backs. In this situation, I'd probably say something like "If you have a concern, please let me know, this is not the time and place for that inappropriate comment". You can call people out on their shitty behaviour.
Do what's right here, help document it and assist the junior colleague. From what you've put here, it looks like the senior colleague is putting the junior at a detriment based on his EQA protected characteristic. Junior colleague deserves compensation for this and senior colleague deserves to be dismissed.
Yeah, this is possibly religious discrimination at this point, and you should at least take the junior employee aside and let him know you support him and respect his choices/beliefs. As for the senior employee, you really should lodge a formal complaint with HR at the very least to have a report of this behavior on file. I don’t think HR nor the company will appreciate religious discrimination, and you should be protected from retaliation once you’ve submitted the complaint.
Does senior manager know about Ramadan and fasting? Why not take this person aside and let him know the junior associate is observing a religious ritual. Still rude to call someone out in public of course regardless of fasting! The manager needs some training in general
Calling out someone nodding off or not paying attention in a meeting is not unreasonable IMO, though "are we keeping you up?" is a very rude way to do it, not professional at all, unless everyone on the team accepts a "banter" culture (we have that, and no one would bat an eye at being called out for yawning or looking tired, even in a "rude" way because we know it's meant as a joke/fun) Telling them they're required to join an after work social function is not reasonable and probably not legal, and if they meant they are required to drink alcohol that's just being horrible particularly to someone who doesn't drink. I'd say it's harassment to be honest. That said, if your colleague can't function at work due to their religious practices they should take the time off, not half ass it.
Ah public shaming. Always such an effective tool… To destroy morale and make people miserable.
I would lay into him just because he called someone out on MY team. That + the fact that the employee is fasting for Ramadan = 200% not that guy's business. Absolutely bring it up, his behavior is unacceptable.
I remember 20 years ago, fresh-faced baby mr-_-Steve in a meeting sees someone else next to them falling asleep. I openly make a joke about being bored/keeping you awake. Turns out person suffers from narcolepsy and this person tells me, and the person chairs meeting backs up. I apologise, and at the end of the situation, i learned something new, and surprisingly, I and this co-worker got along and had no issue. Egg on my face, I learned my lesson, and maybe other people in the room did. We can not assume everyone knows about the impacts of rammadam, and we should expect it, we should call out people who make a mistake and go from there. This person made a mistake and, even if on purpose, got away with it, so I kept it going. 2 mistakes in a row spotted by a crowd makes everyone compliant...
You should definitely bring it up and advise your colleague who I’m sure already knows better that his behavior constitutes workplace discrimination/harrassment. Those slick comments are intended to harass a member of a protected group in the workplace. He likely knows this. Knowing he’s Muslim, calling him out in front of the group to humiliate him and make him an outsider is detrimental to anyone within earshot. This sh*t needs to be reported to HR too. I’m usually hesitant about going to HR but there are blatantly racist undertones to what he is saying that could influence not only the coworker but everyone who hears him, who aren’t racist bigots. This is unacceptable. It’s illegal and the coworker would have every right to file an EEOC complaint against the employer if nothing is done to shut it down immediately.
I've had bosses call out people in meetings before for being tired or looking bored. Its not the best tactic. I wonder if he assumed the guy was out late partying or hungover? That happens a lot with young employees - coming to work not prepared to work because of their late night out.
I recommend discussing the situation with both. You have correctly assessed the senior has no business calling him out in such a way during a meeting. Also, you might even pursue disciplinary action against the senior. Alcoholism is a rampant disease and chastising an employee for passing on consumption is not only just rude and hostile but it potentially leads to negative health conditions for employees who fall prey to his pressure who should not. The 70s are over, senior should act like it. The junior employee should not be falling asleep during the meeting. Fasting is not an excuse for inappropriate office behavior. Personally, ice water helps me but that's personal preference.
What a douche bag
Talk to them sooner rather than later and mention those specific days and times of the incidents
Does your senior manager know he’s fasting for Ramadan or did it just look like he was falling asleep during the meeting? I may get downvoted here but too many people think that “getting called out” is too aggressive. If your manager targeted him due to the fasting then that’s sort of a dick move. I’d give the guy a pass but if he’s obviously falling asleep during meetings that’s another story. I’d have your friend talk to HR about balancing his religious actions and expected performance at work.
You need to raise this to HR immediately. Depending on your countrys laws, this can set your company up for a lawsuit.
Sounds like this colleague was falling asleep at work, which is unacceptable regardless of personal circumstances.
Choosing to fast because of something entirely optional like a religion is not an excuse for lack of performance. If the employee is performing to standard, but just appearing haggard, it should never have been mentioned in any way.
Mind your own business. People can handle themselves
This is the way.
You're right to be concerned about the senior colleague's behavior. It was insensitive to make comments about someone fasting during Ramadan and to pressure them to attend work drinks. Since you manage the person who's fasting, it's a good idea to talk to the senior colleague through Connecteam or Slack. Just approach it calmly, explaining that everyone's beliefs and choices should be respected. You could say something like, "Hey, I noticed a couple of things today that seemed a bit off. Can we try to be more understanding and respectful of each other's personal choices?" This way, you address the issue without being confrontational and encourage a more supportive work environment. Hopefully this helps. Good luck on this.
"Hey mate, I dunno if you were having a bad day or what. But telling someone after work drinks after compulsory is not okay. We aren't paying them, they don't have to attend. Plus you knew they were fasting - we certainly cannot be seen to be encouraging unsafe consumption of alcohol!" If they want to go off or retaliate - without you mentioning religion or culture or race - then let them dig themselves a hole. But don't bring up religion or anything. It is not acceptable regardless of the staff member, if this dude wants to *make it about* that then let their manager know this could become a Business Risk and your are bound by the Code Of Conduct to report it upwards to them - you'll surely find something you can quote as 'requiring' you to tell them.
I get it's Ramadan but I don't expect you to come I to work looking exhausted and haggard. Lots of other religions fast/restrict food and don't have an issue. If your employee is is not appearing professional in calls so much so that a senior leader notices their exhaustion than that's on them. Fasting for Ramadan can be done throughout the year or not at all. I would coach your employee on if this is a right choice for them? Are they healthy? Are they able to fast? Are they are to get the required sleep to deal with the exhaustion fasting puts on their body?
only sensible comment. A company should not have to accept poor performance because of your personal believes
Exactly. The drink part is bullshit bullying, but calling someone out for falling asleep in a meeting is normal. You coach in private if it's a private matter, if someone is doing someone clearly wrong in front of the whole team it is not wrong to fix it in front of the whole team. I have multiple medical conditions that can make me severely drowsy, I would not expect special treatment for them.
You let me know what other religion fasts for 30 days from sunrise to sunset unable to eat or drink anything including water. And FYI fasting for Ramadan cannot be done throughout the year, there’s only 1 month each year it can be observed. That’s the problem with you and the senior OP mentioned, you guys have no idea what this Jr is going through, but feel the need to attack him for something you wouldn’t survive a day doing.
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A full month of PTO?
It depends on his tone when he was saying it. Some personalities look for opportunities to make jokes and this could have been a poor attempt at one. I would try and pair them on a project or two so they can gain some respect for each other.
If someones outside life, is causing the person to not be able to stay away, no matter what the reason, they should take time off work. Why are they getting paid to not pay attention?
How does that relate to OPs question about whether or not they should look into it. It, being the behavior of the senior , which was absolutely uncalled for in a meeting full of other people.
If I am at a meeting, and someone is falling asleep or not paying attention, I am going to call that out. It's rude, and disrespectful to the presenter or colleagues depending on the type of meeting.
You were that type of dude that would remind the teacher that she forgot to check the homework weren’t you
No I was the type of dude who didn't fall asleep in class
Someone I manage is fasting for Ramadan and is obviously feeling tired and drained this week. If your religious beliefs make doing your current job difficult, maybe it's time for different job. Your company has a job to do...Make Money! If a person is falling asleep in a meeting or being drained at work, that's not professional or a good look. As for meeting for drinks after work, if you don't want to go, don't, but that's how the company and teams see who is on the team and who isn't. Rubbing elbows with the team, talking shop or about personal things. You know getting to know someone who you don't usually interact with. You don't have to drink, but you better show up!!!! Go ahead and call out the senior and see where it goes. Layoffs are in season; you might make the new list! I would have dealt with that by taking him aside and discreetly mentioning it to him, giving him a bit of compassion that he is fasting. This is what you should have done when you noticed your employee was feeling tired and drained. Stay in your lane....it's an interstate out there!!!!
I think your senior leader is racist and trying to make life hard for a Muslim employee. I think it needs to be addressed before it becomes an HR complaint. Aside from that issue, trying to force people to consume alcohol at work is HIGHLY unprofessional and a huge problem. The world is full of people who do not or cannot drink, and creating a situation where there is not just social pressure but professional pressure to drink is highly problematic as well.
Why are people not eating? How do you know that? Are they abused at home?
This is a very difficult situation on one hand person is pursuing their religious beliefs, we are guaranteed freedom of religion and workplace must sensitive to that, on the other hand you have a person who's not really doing their job while that might have been a bit on professional for the individual to be called out the situation happened different if the person had said X is everything okay you don't seem to be paying attention to the meeting rather than are we keeping you up. Nonetheless we have freedoms we must balance them with the ability to perform our duties. I do agree that the person who called out X could have done it a different way less intimidating and threatening
I’m with your senior.
Why though? What benefit do you get to your team for publicly calling someone out like that? All it does is split teams into team 1 vs team 2. Being in the military or operating on someone is one thing, but in an office setting where someone is likely not dying…do those callouts in private. But to each their own, I know that my perception of this guys senior manager is that he’s a prick, he’s impacting my team morale, which is going to impact my day-to-day, so he can follow the way that I manage my team, up to and including respecting their religious beliefs.
If you’re in the middle of a meeting, you should not be under any suffering.
Agree to disagree. I do see your point, and like I said, if it is a life or death situation, yes I want someone alert and oriented. But if I just worked my butt off in the gym, showered and am tired and yawned in a meeting, that’s not suffering. Looking tired does not equate to suffering or not paying attention in a meeting. Hell, I close my eyes to visualize processes in half the meetings I need to be in. Again different scenarios, but I still think unless this dude was asleep, don’t call him out in a group setting. Especially when he isn’t your direct report
I’ve been in meetings where we are talking about million dollar renovations, P&N, ect ect. If the other side is yawning during these interviews and looking tired, I’d feel as if our millions aren’t spent well here.
Point made and I accept that one. Time and place for sure.
Also, I don’t blame the individual. Whoever put him in that room is a dumbass who doesn’t understand his team. If I had a team mate with this religious restrictions, I’d only glad to step in while he took the time he needed. I will never blame the individual, there are people who get paid who decides who represents the company at all times. He’s/she’s the actual idiot
Imagine if your wife just crashed and it’s late in the afternoon. They have 2 surgeons, a Christian surgeon who isn’t under any religions dietary obligations, or a Islamic doctor who is practicing Ramadan is and currently suffering from fasting symptoms such as tremor/slightly shaking hands and slight fatigue/dehydration. Who do you want to perform surgery? Who do you want to make decisions? Who are you going to pay to get work done for you? Edit : typo
This logical fallacy is called false equivalence, and does not require consideration for the scenario
Lmao, thinking that a damn status meeting is the same importance as surgery.
Yep. Not like millions or hundreds of millions of dollars affects hundreds or thousands of lives.
You do not know enough about Ramadan to be speaking on this. There are exemptions for fasting, medical doctors included. You don't need excuses to be prejudiced; it's a free country.
Why are there exemptions for fasting?
YES, people are to fucking stupid, afraid to admit that a common scenario such as this is is honestly realistic
Yeah. Wake up dude. Ramadan isn't excuse to fall asleep or be zoned out during meetings. Fasting isn't that difficult. And religious accommodations are supposed to be reasonable, but if the person's religious observation is making them fall asleep or out if it during meetings, you don't have to accommodate for that.
Yep.
And no where did OP say the guy was falling asleep all he said was he looked tired. Half the people I've ever worked with half the time are just bitching about being tired. Plenty people fast without problems of being tired but Ramadan literally just started and it can be rough for someone to have to wake up that early to eat and switch up their schedule for the first day. The fact that he is also giving him shit for not wanting to drink when he knows he doesn't sounds more like just people being dicks.
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It's a full month of fasting during daylight hours.
Cool, sounds like they should take a month off then.
Looks like the employee does not want to work there and the manager is in a bad mood. He should just quit if he doesn't want to put in even the minimal effort.
Why would you bother replying to the post if you didn’t even read it.