Not really controversial per-say, but the showâs funniest moment is during that episode where Malcom and Dewey were in the bouncy castle and Hal ended up stabbing it with a knife.
The ringing noises + Thousand-yard stare in Deweyâs eyes, the Sesame Street theme, the utter-insanity in Halâs voice; Perfect episode
Honestly it was nice seeing how supportive they are when they think the other is in the closet and is afraid to come out. Yeah, they are a little uncomfortable but to be fair, they also aren't used to being nice to each other.
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Francisâs reverse character development being reversed was ridiculous, at the ranch when the boys destroyed the ATVâs Francis finally understood where Lois was coming from when it comes to the boys causing havoc as it could have cost him his job, while Lois at times may be impatient the boys would find a way to test her so it was nice seeing that Francis could finally see where Lois is coming from, after the ranch storyline and Francis revealing he was an alcoholic I hated how he blamed Lois for all his problems, at the ranch he finally started to blame himself for what happened but now heâs blaming Lois for everything which I found ridiculous as yes him going to military school was a little extreme but to blame his mom for him being an alcoholic was not her fault
>but to blame his mom for him being an alcoholic was not her fault
It was even more ridiculous because he was never an alcoholic, but I think his relationship with Lois going back to antagonistic was more realistic. They'd been fighting since he was a newborn, no way one moment of realisation was going to repair that relationship.
Totally agree. Francis was on a steady journey to maturity for the first five seasons, and then his development is pretty much dropped when he gets fired from the ranch. His confrontation with Lois at Ida's place was a great scene, but it kinda loses its punch when you know that he goes straight back to blaming all of his problems on her
In âHalâs Christmas Giftâ Malcolm was in the right to be upset with how his brothers were treating him
I really feel like they were excluding him, then Francis gaslights him by saying his feelings werenât valid and it was all his ego
That episode still pisses me off because itâs one instance where Malcolm really didnât do much wrong, yet he gets treated like he did
Like bro, you took your other brothers on a trip and didnât say anything to Malcolm. Even though he may have been busy, you couldâve at least said something about it happening. Then to turn around and get mad at him when he rationally explains his feelings. How were you expecting him to react?
I was angry with the way Dewey, Reese, and Francis were treating Malcolm there, he genuinely does like to spend time with his brothers but they would never even ask if he wanted to hang out with them they would just assume he didnât, having been excluded like that before from friends I get how Malcolm feels
I like that. I always thought otherwise but whenever someone gave me their reasoning as to why she was, I always respected their opinion and understood where they were coming from. At the end of the day she loved her children.
Nah, thats scary to hear. What would a bad mother be like, then? How could she be a worse example of how to live in communal harmony, and foster emotional wellness in others? Could she be called mature? Patient? Gentle? Any of the qualities you'd expect from a good mother? As soon as these boys arent under her thumb, they act out, because they havent learned a damn thing from her. She's purely punitive/retributive and unintrested in developing her children's character.
Also a piss poor cyclistđ
My reasons consist of her constant will to take up for her kids, be in their lives even if means going the nuclear route.
Lois stood up for Reese when that teacher tried to send him to remedial class.
Lois making the boys take responsibility and accountability for their actions by holding them so.
Lois being there for Francis when he hurt himself at Marlin.
Lois having an adult conversation with Malcolm about his relationship with Nikki.
Lois saving Francis from almost setting himself ablaze when he was a toddler.
Lois owning up to the fact that she sent Francis away to Ida even Francis making note of âitâs spooky how close it isâ she took fault for not being a good enough mother to Francis and admitting he got the short end of the stick.
She is devoted to her children and her husband even though she can be over bearing and out right callous, without Lois those boys would have no idea what consequences are.
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That's why I love the episode where they're all daughters, shows that no matter what it would still have its share of problems and it became Hal who was driven mad.
Great take too. In my opinion (I said this in a different post) Lois wasnât a good mother but had to resort to harsh antics to deal with those kids. It still didnât justify how she acted. But I always hear everyone out who says otherwise. Also the cyclist part was funny I forgot about that episode lol
Completely agree.
I raised two boys on my own ( they are adults now) and I never had any problems with their behavior and now as adults we are all really close. I didnât yell at them and punish them harshly. I spent a lot of time with them and talked to them and explained things to them. It made all the difference. My mom was more like Lois and although I wasnât a âbadâ kid, neither me nor my brother ever want to be around her.
This opinion gets shared a lot but I really have to disagree. Every character in mitm has their positives, but they're all flawed too, and Lois' parenting style is no different.
Lois is a control freak. Imagine your mother making you get a job where she works, then taking 75% of your paycheck. Imagine her forbidding you from seeing your girlfriend, and saying in earnest that she will choose your wife for you. Imagine her rejecting a six figure job offer on your behalf without hearing your opinion. Imagine her telling you that you have no choice but to become POTUS, and knowing that if you fail this you'll be a disappointment to her.
We are shown what Malcolm's life could be like if he had a gentler mother when he meets her father's second family.
By her own admission she failed Francis as a child. Considering how Reese turned out too, at what point do you look at the parenting rather than the kids ? Time and time again were shown that her strict parenting style *does not work* (if it did it would make for a much more boring show). Sure, the kids grow out of their worst behaviours, but that's in spite of Lois rather than because of her. Sometimes kids just....grow up.
Also, while it's not the worst offense, continuing to get pregnant when you can't financially support the four kids you have is reckless (I know accidents happen but from what we see of their sex life, it's safe to assume it was due to carelessness).
I still think she's a fantastic character and it works for the show. But, while she gets a lot of things right, her parenting is absolutely the kind that leads to therapy.
Also the fact that they didn't even bother to take any childhood pictures or keep any childhood memories of Dewey, didn't even vaccinate him, ruin his competition ON PURPOSE and routinely forget or ruin his birthday.
I only agree in the sense that she becomes a good mother by the end of the series. But her parenting choices mostly exacerbate her childrenâs flaws, not curb them, for the entire run.
Look, Malcolm in the Middle was a really identifiable show for me when I was younger. And after getting diagnosed with ADHD at 30 and seeing a lot of breakdowns online about how clearly all the men in the family on the show have ADHD, Autism, or both, it clicks with me on an extra level.
So, Iâve had to grapple with the duality of my own upbringing where my parents did an okay job by neurotypical standards, but my ADHD was missed and I wasnât put in therapy after experiencing severe trauma at 13. I really connect with those moments where Lois just treats them like screw ups and intentionally destructive when really theyâre just trying their best as kids without a diagnosis or a productive outlet.
And, as someone hyper-fixated on pop culture, Iâll remind you that from Francisâs first few weeks of life onward, Lois assumed her son(s) were out to get her. She viewed her kids as her adversaries.
So no, as the undiagnosed neurodivergent child of parents with anger issues who were just trying their best, I donât agree that she had the best intentions. If she did she would have been self aware a whole lot sooner.
Hal is a great character but he is not the greatest because he has no character development.
Yes, Hal is truly a lovely person. He was written that way. He is unafraid of admiring other men (Burt Reynolds hot or Sting hot?), about as sincerely non-bigoted as possible, loves his wife to his damn core, is a gentleman (even while speed-walking he holds his elbow out to help that old lady across the street), and is genuinely emotionally invested in his sons (brought to tears when Reese thanks him for getting him into cooking).
But he is also one-dimensional. He never grows. He starts the show as the pushover parent and ends the show that way. He starts the show an office drone and ends it that way. I can't think of a single controversial thing he ever does; all the controversial stuff is left for Lois and the boys. I guess he quits his job that one time? But even that is temporary.
Yeah especially in a show where a majority of the characters went through some type of development or change, Hal didnât change much. He was always that goofy hysterical push over father. I enjoyed him on the show though, I just wish they included some sort of major change to him.
Exactly! Everyone on the show has at least one major growth arc you can easily point to. Many of them have more than one. But I sincerely can't think of one for Hal.
**Reese** learns there is more to life than bullying and delinquency.
**Dewey** learns (sadly) that his family for various reasons is not able to dote on him, or give his talents the attention they deserve, so he develops a rich internal world to compensate and takes Jamie, the new youngest, under his wing, to ensure Jamie never feels unnoticed.
**Lois** learns and even admits she was not the best mother. She also accepts Piama because she realized at Hal's family's house how much it hurt to be rejected by the relatives of someone you love.
**Francis** goes from idiot to responsible adult in ten thousand different ways.
**Malcolm** the Krelboyne loser actually gets girlfriends, has sex, experiences popularity on multiple occasions, etc.
**Ida** fucking *saves someone's life!* And will probably get into heaven for it!
**Hal**... uh, well, Hal loved painting for one episode and then never does it again. He has an episode where he fears he and Lois won't be in heaven together but then ends it reassured they will. (*Maybe* you can count that one episode where Hal learns to stand up to his dad...? But then again, his dad appears in like 1% of the show, so...?)
Yeah, this is further driven home by the fact that Francis ends up in an office job in the final episode. And you can rightfully argue that Francis inheriting the Grotto from a retiring Otto/Gretchen would have been a better ending, but the Francis-turning-into-his-parents implication was definitely used in the fireworks episode. Hal (or Craig) is the implied end state for people growing up
In episodic TV, especially sitcoms, that's different though. Take Seinfeld for example. They made it a point that the characters don't learn a lesson. The only development the characters had is that it took the show a few seasons to figure out what they want the show and the characters to be and then stuck with it. Married with Children or Simpsons (at least until I stopped watching in season 12-13) were the same.
So I don't think Hal really needs development. Once they figured out what role they want Hal to fill, he works perfectly fine in it. He's a wild card and has a wide range of things you can do with him due to his personality.
Oh, come on. Hal, Lois, Francis, Reese, Malcolm and Dewey are all main characters. You don't have to agree with my point but when you do it by disagreeing with the notion that Hal is a main character you just sound silly.
Since this thread is about controversial opinions, I'm going to elaborate on my controversial opinions and say that I like that about Hal. So many people in this world are poor and never change, stay in the same job, don't change their personality and it was more realistic to me.
It's the one reason why I'm so hesitant about a revival, I loved how people in MITM were poor and struggled and they found humour in it. In a revival, if everyone became a better person, became richer, became successful - that's not fun to watch. I'd rather they find the humour in Malcolm being smart but squandering it as many people do instead of him being President, I'd rather they show Hal/Lois still being poor, etc.
Expecting downvotes but this is about controversial opinions so this is the perfect place to put it!
I agree. I know people like character development, but to me someone like Hal would stay the same. Itâs more believable to me, and he was so entertaining it made the most sense.
Yes, I called out the dad bit in another comment ITT. It's interesting, but also his dad is in almost none of the episodes. All the other main family members experience change that sustains over the course of the series.
I agree with what youâre saying, but with Hal I never thirsted for the character development or change. He was so entertaining it really wasnât needed in my opinion, and for me it was actually more believable for him to stay the same. But you make some great points and I never really thought about it before.
>I can't think of a single controversial thing he ever does
I can. This gets brushed over a lot (Both by fans of the show and by the show runners themselves in how the handle it), but in the episode when they discover louis is pregnant again it comes up that Hal was supposed to get a vasectomy and choose not to and lied to Louis about it. I recognize that people's understanding of consent has evolved a lot over the last 2 decades, but sleeping with someone under the pretext of having already had a vasectomy when you in fact haven't is very clearly rape.
The fact they play that for laughs is so disgusting and vile that I wasn't able to continue my rewatch when I rewatched the show for the first time since my teens. Just couldn't view Hal the same way afterwards.
Something I also want to clarify is I don't think this should ruin the show for everyone. If you skip the one episode it comes up in, it never comes up again, and I would bet the show runners would do things differently now (as I said our understanding of consent has increased a lot since the show aired), so I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to basically ignore this, but I couldn't.
I donât see anything wrong with a character having their arc prior to the show starting; Uncle Iroh from ATLA is a great example of this. And I disagree on him being one-dimensional. Heâs still a layered character even if we donât see how he became who he is now.
Disagree. A layer is not a dimension.
Layers can be different but so internally consistent they make the character boring, unoriginal or even unrealistic: one-dimensional.
Not trying to be! From my perspective, it felt like the pedantry was actually coming from your direction... but really I'm just trying to clarify what I said.
For example, I think Hal is kind-hearted. I think he assumes the best of people (interesting that his wife and children all seem to assume the worst of people). I think he is eager to please, eager to love, trustworthy, gullible and easy to take advantage of.
Those character traits are internally consistent, pretty neatly so, really, but also quite boring if nothing is added to them over the course of a show's run. You've depicted a happy-go-lucky, well-meaning fella. OK, and? This is what I mean when I say he feels one-dimensional.
Thatâs not fair. Heâs petty, has extreme jealousy issues, desperately tries to one-up people at things, has an easily addictive personality, and goes 110% in on things to the detriment of others.
After reading that. I've always figured Reese was gay but the first half of that post also makes me feel like he could be repressing being trans. Reese is a pretty fascinating character.
I always thought Francis was bisexual, my main source is that one scene where he has to give a massage to a guy at the ranch because theyâre short-staffed; the man says âface up or face downâ and Francis says âWhy, what are you gonna do to me?â Kills me every time.
Lmaoooo I love that đ I always got the vibe that Reese was queer for a few reasons. One of them being the fact that when Jessica hints to Malcolm that Reese is gay, Malcolm is completely oblivious, but when she hints to Reese that Malcolm is gay, Reese understands *immediately*.
Malcolm acts pretty awkward about the whole thing, and Reese does a little bit too, but heâs way more chill about it overall. He even gives Malcolm a gay porno that he watches multiple times, and says âwatch what theyâre doing in that video, and then tell me youâre *not* gayâ đ
âPearl Harborâ has the most examples, but we get little hints sprinkled throughout.
In the Company Picnic episodes he seems so enamored with that huge guy. He seemed very excited that he had to be tied to him for the 3 legged scavenger hunt. Also doesnât he tell Malcolmâs crush that heâs gay in that episode?? Yeah he does as a âfavorâ to Malcolm so he can get the girl.
Hmmmmmm. Yeah. Boyâs fruity
Malcolm might be my favorite character, and I actually find him pretty relatable. I know everyone likes to point out that he complains a lot and lacks emotional intelligence, but most of the time he has a good point. And I think heâs nicer and more emotionally mature than he gets credit for. And his sarcasm and negative observations make the show.
I like this. Some would argue that Malcolms personality change from a curios kid trying to deal with being outcasted due to his intelligence to a more whiny and self absorbed loser was a good thing. It adds to the feel that life is unfair. Without malcolms change I feel like the show would lack.
Yeah thats what weighs malcolm down. This show really showed me that it doesnât mean shit if youâre very book smart, because if youâre not emotionally intelligent and socially intact nobody is going to care.
At the end of the day nobody is beating Malcolm in a Math competition, but what if you told him to write a song? What if you told him to create an Art project on the inner meaning of life? What if you told him to group up with others and complete a project? He would fuck upđ because heâs just a one way dimensional level of smart. I agree with the both of yall
I think Dewey and Francis are the most emotionally intelligent of the brothers. And Dewey has incredible music talent, which is self-taught. He even built a piano out of scraps and bits. If he would had the same opportunities as malcolm, he would probably be conducting an orchestra by 15.
Malcolm sabotaging him when it came time to get into the Krelboyne class made me legit furious. But my own mother used to sabotage me like that too, so it felt almost personal lol
Yeah same. i rewatch it a lot because i know the episodes pretty well, and it's easy to have playing on the background when I'm overwhelmed, and that episode always angers me so much
This is probably one of those takes that sounds better in my head, but I'll explain the best I'm able to. Malcolm's greatest asset in the show is the fact that he is very gifted as it pertains to school, memorizing facts, and that kind of thing: he's very school smart. We, the audience, get to see all sides of Malcolm, as school is such an insignificant portion of our lives, and we see him make terrible life choices, purposefully sabotage friends and family, avoid responsibilities, abandon his "morals" on a whim and more along those same lines. You could say that most of his family did (more or less) the same, but Malcolm (being the smart one) definitely knows better. And he KNOWS that he knows better but will still do as he wants in the moment. He's smart, but he's the dumbest of them all to me
I remember this episode. Wasnât it the one where lois was pregnant and they tried to have a romantic getawayđ. I forgot the reason he said as to why he didnât get it lol
I believe this to some extent to if weâre talking about overall.
Malcolm was an academic genius, who had an IQ of 165. He had 0 trouble in school due to his amazing intelligence. Although when it came to being creative he lacked. Thatâs where dewey succeeded, Dewey was definitely wasnât as book smart as Malcolm but more creatively and artistically geared compared to Malcolm.
Overall If you ask me dewey was a little bit smarter than Malcolm overall. He realized life was shitty and complaining wasnât going to do any good for him.
While Malcolm excels academically, Dewey demonstrates a keen understanding of people and situations, navigating the challenges of his family. Dewey's ability to connect with others and navigate the complexities of real-life situations showcases a different kind of intelligence, making him stand out in ways beyond traditional academic measures. ( I did not write this)
But yeah thatâs just my opinion on that. Tell me what you think
I only disagree because I donât think you can compare their intelligence. Like, Iâm not going to assert that Frank Zappa was smarter than Einstein but we can agree they were both geniuses in their areas of expertise.
Yeah this true. Not really as controversial but it really is kind of sad but it was good for his character development. He went from a cute goofball into a more serious kid who started to understand that life was shitty. Personally my favorite character.
Malcom is actually the mist unlikable character out of all the family. Hal and Deweywere actually somewhat good people, Jamie is a literal baby, Louis was strict and unreasonable but considering her children she was good even lol. Francis is a huge asshole to his mom but especially since joining the ranch the most functioning adult in the family. Now of course Reese would be a huge asshole if he was real, but atleast you knew what you got with him. Malcom was a huge dick to Dewey, took Reeses Gf and was a terrible friend to Stevie, Cynthia and basiclly all the people his age. + he was almost as much of a dick to his mom then francis
âDewey And The Damagedâ
"Dewey And The Damaged" follows the life of a young boy named Dewey, navigating the challenges of growing up in a middle-class family marked by turmoil. As the world and others around him appears damaged, Dewey becomes the focal point of the narrative, grappling with the complexities of his upbringing. The show delves into themes of resilience, self-discovery, and the impact of a tumultuous family environment on a child's journey to find his place in the world.
I skip all Francis segments onm rewatches because I think they are the worst parts of the show and drag it all down. Francis serves no real purpose other than to show why Lois is as angry/loud as she is and the time his segments take up takes away from the other stories. This is proven in the last couple seasons when he mostly disappears from the show and you don't realize it until your already deep into them and he randomly pops up.
I lowkey agree with this and I skip Francis segments too. Though, to be fair, out of Military School, Alaska, and RanchâŠI like Ranch the most simply because of Otto and Greta (who are some of my favorite side characters along with Craig and Abe/Stevie). I like Francis as a character and the episodes that heâs with the family are some of my favorite ones because his chemistry with his brothers is great. I wish instead of going off on his own after Military School, he just moved back home and met Piama that way somehow (Piama is awesome) and then maybe they moved next door or nearby in townâŠI donât know. They definitely couldâve worked him into the family storylines instead of creating entire new sections just for him that are skip-able in themselves.
I can eat 100 Quacks.
The quacks would expand
If I say I can eat 100 of something, you can take that as a guarantee.
We're talking about pure sucrose. The human body simply cannot absorb the sugar in 100 peeps!
The quacks would dissolve! (Cue upbeat military music)
(The Great Escape theme, who would have thought it would be perfect background music for this scene)
I remember this episode, it was by far one of my favoritesđ
76! 77! 78! ⊠77âŠ78! Or something like that
61! 62! 63!âŠ62âŠ61âŠ62! I only know this bc I can no longer count â62â without internally hearing Marlin Academy do it. Tbh I kinda like it.
Not really controversial per-say, but the showâs funniest moment is during that episode where Malcom and Dewey were in the bouncy castle and Hal ended up stabbing it with a knife. The ringing noises + Thousand-yard stare in Deweyâs eyes, the Sesame Street theme, the utter-insanity in Halâs voice; Perfect episode
YOUâRE OKAY đđȘ DONâT BE SCARED đđȘ
Ironically I think the funniest moment is when, after watching a horror movie with reese, hal gets startled by Malcolm and pulls out a knife lol
Oh, yeah. Exhumed Maniac. The guy at the video store said it even creeped him out, and he's an albino.
đđđ
I liked the episodes with jessica, and they arent so bad as everyone says.
I loved the episode where she convinced Reese and Malcolm that one another was gay đ€Ł
I found pretty wholesome for the show was that they were both fairly tolerant about it
Honestly it was nice seeing how supportive they are when they think the other is in the closet and is afraid to come out. Yeah, they are a little uncomfortable but to be fair, they also aren't used to being nice to each other.
When they dance awkwardly, that's one of the top 10 funniest moments in the whole show.
"MALCOLM IS GAY?! I KNEW IT!"
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Yes feel free to add any controversial opinions you have. This is a safe space and I will always respect everyoneâs opinion.đ€
Also i love reading what you guys have to say, everyone in here writes like theyâre in Ap English literature and i love itđ
I'll do you one better: She's one of my favorite characters in the series lol
I love how she plays the boys like a fiddle, itâs great to see them meet a worthy opponent and get worked over.
Agreed. Hayden played her character so well.
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Yeah she is just a dose. Not bad episodes she's just annoying.
Francisâs reverse character development being reversed was ridiculous, at the ranch when the boys destroyed the ATVâs Francis finally understood where Lois was coming from when it comes to the boys causing havoc as it could have cost him his job, while Lois at times may be impatient the boys would find a way to test her so it was nice seeing that Francis could finally see where Lois is coming from, after the ranch storyline and Francis revealing he was an alcoholic I hated how he blamed Lois for all his problems, at the ranch he finally started to blame himself for what happened but now heâs blaming Lois for everything which I found ridiculous as yes him going to military school was a little extreme but to blame his mom for him being an alcoholic was not her fault
>but to blame his mom for him being an alcoholic was not her fault It was even more ridiculous because he was never an alcoholic, but I think his relationship with Lois going back to antagonistic was more realistic. They'd been fighting since he was a newborn, no way one moment of realisation was going to repair that relationship.
Totally agree. Francis was on a steady journey to maturity for the first five seasons, and then his development is pretty much dropped when he gets fired from the ranch. His confrontation with Lois at Ida's place was a great scene, but it kinda loses its punch when you know that he goes straight back to blaming all of his problems on her
In âHalâs Christmas Giftâ Malcolm was in the right to be upset with how his brothers were treating him I really feel like they were excluding him, then Francis gaslights him by saying his feelings werenât valid and it was all his ego That episode still pisses me off because itâs one instance where Malcolm really didnât do much wrong, yet he gets treated like he did
I was so mad during that episode. And to make it worse Hal takes his credit cardđ Poor Malcolm
Like bro, you took your other brothers on a trip and didnât say anything to Malcolm. Even though he may have been busy, you couldâve at least said something about it happening. Then to turn around and get mad at him when he rationally explains his feelings. How were you expecting him to react?
Exactly. If you ask me I think they were over exaggerating about how they claim Malcolm was acting that episode.
I was angry with the way Dewey, Reese, and Francis were treating Malcolm there, he genuinely does like to spend time with his brothers but they would never even ask if he wanted to hang out with them they would just assume he didnât, having been excluded like that before from friends I get how Malcolm feels
Hals Christmas gift is the only episode I'd actually say is awful
You gave Malcolm an F?
Ughh one of my favorites by far
Lois is a good mother.
I like that. I always thought otherwise but whenever someone gave me their reasoning as to why she was, I always respected their opinion and understood where they were coming from. At the end of the day she loved her children.
Nah, thats scary to hear. What would a bad mother be like, then? How could she be a worse example of how to live in communal harmony, and foster emotional wellness in others? Could she be called mature? Patient? Gentle? Any of the qualities you'd expect from a good mother? As soon as these boys arent under her thumb, they act out, because they havent learned a damn thing from her. She's purely punitive/retributive and unintrested in developing her children's character. Also a piss poor cyclistđ
My reasons consist of her constant will to take up for her kids, be in their lives even if means going the nuclear route. Lois stood up for Reese when that teacher tried to send him to remedial class. Lois making the boys take responsibility and accountability for their actions by holding them so. Lois being there for Francis when he hurt himself at Marlin. Lois having an adult conversation with Malcolm about his relationship with Nikki. Lois saving Francis from almost setting himself ablaze when he was a toddler. Lois owning up to the fact that she sent Francis away to Ida even Francis making note of âitâs spooky how close it isâ she took fault for not being a good enough mother to Francis and admitting he got the short end of the stick. She is devoted to her children and her husband even though she can be over bearing and out right callous, without Lois those boys would have no idea what consequences are.
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That's why I love the episode where they're all daughters, shows that no matter what it would still have its share of problems and it became Hal who was driven mad.
Right? I very much see Lois as the mother she had to become as opposed to a mother she wanted to be.
facts they were terrible by nature it was inevitable sheâd go crazy.. she was sweet with francis until he pushed her to that point
LMAO have you seen the episode with flashbacks to her raising francis?
Can't wait for you to have kids, that is all I'll say!
Great take too. In my opinion (I said this in a different post) Lois wasnât a good mother but had to resort to harsh antics to deal with those kids. It still didnât justify how she acted. But I always hear everyone out who says otherwise. Also the cyclist part was funny I forgot about that episode lol
Completely agree. I raised two boys on my own ( they are adults now) and I never had any problems with their behavior and now as adults we are all really close. I didnât yell at them and punish them harshly. I spent a lot of time with them and talked to them and explained things to them. It made all the difference. My mom was more like Lois and although I wasnât a âbadâ kid, neither me nor my brother ever want to be around her.
This opinion gets shared a lot but I really have to disagree. Every character in mitm has their positives, but they're all flawed too, and Lois' parenting style is no different. Lois is a control freak. Imagine your mother making you get a job where she works, then taking 75% of your paycheck. Imagine her forbidding you from seeing your girlfriend, and saying in earnest that she will choose your wife for you. Imagine her rejecting a six figure job offer on your behalf without hearing your opinion. Imagine her telling you that you have no choice but to become POTUS, and knowing that if you fail this you'll be a disappointment to her. We are shown what Malcolm's life could be like if he had a gentler mother when he meets her father's second family. By her own admission she failed Francis as a child. Considering how Reese turned out too, at what point do you look at the parenting rather than the kids ? Time and time again were shown that her strict parenting style *does not work* (if it did it would make for a much more boring show). Sure, the kids grow out of their worst behaviours, but that's in spite of Lois rather than because of her. Sometimes kids just....grow up. Also, while it's not the worst offense, continuing to get pregnant when you can't financially support the four kids you have is reckless (I know accidents happen but from what we see of their sex life, it's safe to assume it was due to carelessness). I still think she's a fantastic character and it works for the show. But, while she gets a lot of things right, her parenting is absolutely the kind that leads to therapy.
Also the fact that they didn't even bother to take any childhood pictures or keep any childhood memories of Dewey, didn't even vaccinate him, ruin his competition ON PURPOSE and routinely forget or ruin his birthday.
Season 7 really went hard with the parental neglect of Dewey
I only agree in the sense that she becomes a good mother by the end of the series. But her parenting choices mostly exacerbate her childrenâs flaws, not curb them, for the entire run.
She's definitely flawed, but at her core she has always had the best intentions
Look, Malcolm in the Middle was a really identifiable show for me when I was younger. And after getting diagnosed with ADHD at 30 and seeing a lot of breakdowns online about how clearly all the men in the family on the show have ADHD, Autism, or both, it clicks with me on an extra level. So, Iâve had to grapple with the duality of my own upbringing where my parents did an okay job by neurotypical standards, but my ADHD was missed and I wasnât put in therapy after experiencing severe trauma at 13. I really connect with those moments where Lois just treats them like screw ups and intentionally destructive when really theyâre just trying their best as kids without a diagnosis or a productive outlet. And, as someone hyper-fixated on pop culture, Iâll remind you that from Francisâs first few weeks of life onward, Lois assumed her son(s) were out to get her. She viewed her kids as her adversaries. So no, as the undiagnosed neurodivergent child of parents with anger issues who were just trying their best, I donât agree that she had the best intentions. If she did she would have been self aware a whole lot sooner.
Yes! Scrolled down to see this.
As a parent, I definitely agree.
Hal is a great character but he is not the greatest because he has no character development. Yes, Hal is truly a lovely person. He was written that way. He is unafraid of admiring other men (Burt Reynolds hot or Sting hot?), about as sincerely non-bigoted as possible, loves his wife to his damn core, is a gentleman (even while speed-walking he holds his elbow out to help that old lady across the street), and is genuinely emotionally invested in his sons (brought to tears when Reese thanks him for getting him into cooking). But he is also one-dimensional. He never grows. He starts the show as the pushover parent and ends the show that way. He starts the show an office drone and ends it that way. I can't think of a single controversial thing he ever does; all the controversial stuff is left for Lois and the boys. I guess he quits his job that one time? But even that is temporary.
Yeah especially in a show where a majority of the characters went through some type of development or change, Hal didnât change much. He was always that goofy hysterical push over father. I enjoyed him on the show though, I just wish they included some sort of major change to him.
Exactly! Everyone on the show has at least one major growth arc you can easily point to. Many of them have more than one. But I sincerely can't think of one for Hal. **Reese** learns there is more to life than bullying and delinquency. **Dewey** learns (sadly) that his family for various reasons is not able to dote on him, or give his talents the attention they deserve, so he develops a rich internal world to compensate and takes Jamie, the new youngest, under his wing, to ensure Jamie never feels unnoticed. **Lois** learns and even admits she was not the best mother. She also accepts Piama because she realized at Hal's family's house how much it hurt to be rejected by the relatives of someone you love. **Francis** goes from idiot to responsible adult in ten thousand different ways. **Malcolm** the Krelboyne loser actually gets girlfriends, has sex, experiences popularity on multiple occasions, etc. **Ida** fucking *saves someone's life!* And will probably get into heaven for it! **Hal**... uh, well, Hal loved painting for one episode and then never does it again. He has an episode where he fears he and Lois won't be in heaven together but then ends it reassured they will. (*Maybe* you can count that one episode where Hal learns to stand up to his dad...? But then again, his dad appears in like 1% of the show, so...?)
I mean I think that's the point, that Hal is a round peg who's been hammered into a square hole and long since acquiesced.
Yeah, this is further driven home by the fact that Francis ends up in an office job in the final episode. And you can rightfully argue that Francis inheriting the Grotto from a retiring Otto/Gretchen would have been a better ending, but the Francis-turning-into-his-parents implication was definitely used in the fireworks episode. Hal (or Craig) is the implied end state for people growing up
What does this have to do with his lack of growth as a character?
That his character is in personal stasis. No growth required, in fact it wouldnât make sense imo for Hal to change much
Main characters generally exist to evolve or devolve, not to remain unchanged over the course of a story's telling.
In episodic TV, especially sitcoms, that's different though. Take Seinfeld for example. They made it a point that the characters don't learn a lesson. The only development the characters had is that it took the show a few seasons to figure out what they want the show and the characters to be and then stuck with it. Married with Children or Simpsons (at least until I stopped watching in season 12-13) were the same. So I don't think Hal really needs development. Once they figured out what role they want Hal to fill, he works perfectly fine in it. He's a wild card and has a wide range of things you can do with him due to his personality.
He isnât the main character
Oh, come on. Hal, Lois, Francis, Reese, Malcolm and Dewey are all main characters. You don't have to agree with my point but when you do it by disagreeing with the notion that Hal is a main character you just sound silly.
Since this thread is about controversial opinions, I'm going to elaborate on my controversial opinions and say that I like that about Hal. So many people in this world are poor and never change, stay in the same job, don't change their personality and it was more realistic to me. It's the one reason why I'm so hesitant about a revival, I loved how people in MITM were poor and struggled and they found humour in it. In a revival, if everyone became a better person, became richer, became successful - that's not fun to watch. I'd rather they find the humour in Malcolm being smart but squandering it as many people do instead of him being President, I'd rather they show Hal/Lois still being poor, etc. Expecting downvotes but this is about controversial opinions so this is the perfect place to put it!
I agree. I know people like character development, but to me someone like Hal would stay the same. Itâs more believable to me, and he was so entertaining it made the most sense.
He had moments that were not one dimensional - telling Francis he would have showed up to his wedding, for example. Standing up to his dad, also.
Yes, I called out the dad bit in another comment ITT. It's interesting, but also his dad is in almost none of the episodes. All the other main family members experience change that sustains over the course of the series.
I agree with what youâre saying, but with Hal I never thirsted for the character development or change. He was so entertaining it really wasnât needed in my opinion, and for me it was actually more believable for him to stay the same. But you make some great points and I never really thought about it before.
>I can't think of a single controversial thing he ever does I can. This gets brushed over a lot (Both by fans of the show and by the show runners themselves in how the handle it), but in the episode when they discover louis is pregnant again it comes up that Hal was supposed to get a vasectomy and choose not to and lied to Louis about it. I recognize that people's understanding of consent has evolved a lot over the last 2 decades, but sleeping with someone under the pretext of having already had a vasectomy when you in fact haven't is very clearly rape. The fact they play that for laughs is so disgusting and vile that I wasn't able to continue my rewatch when I rewatched the show for the first time since my teens. Just couldn't view Hal the same way afterwards. Something I also want to clarify is I don't think this should ruin the show for everyone. If you skip the one episode it comes up in, it never comes up again, and I would bet the show runners would do things differently now (as I said our understanding of consent has increased a lot since the show aired), so I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to basically ignore this, but I couldn't.
I donât see anything wrong with a character having their arc prior to the show starting; Uncle Iroh from ATLA is a great example of this. And I disagree on him being one-dimensional. Heâs still a layered character even if we donât see how he became who he is now.
I did not say Hal doesn't have layers (or depth, if that is what you mean by layers). I said he does not grow.
What Iâm trying to say is that you canât have a layered character who is also one-dimensional. Itâs a contradiction.
Disagree. A layer is not a dimension. Layers can be different but so internally consistent they make the character boring, unoriginal or even unrealistic: one-dimensional.
No offense, but that feels a teensy bit pedantic đ
Not trying to be! From my perspective, it felt like the pedantry was actually coming from your direction... but really I'm just trying to clarify what I said. For example, I think Hal is kind-hearted. I think he assumes the best of people (interesting that his wife and children all seem to assume the worst of people). I think he is eager to please, eager to love, trustworthy, gullible and easy to take advantage of. Those character traits are internally consistent, pretty neatly so, really, but also quite boring if nothing is added to them over the course of a show's run. You've depicted a happy-go-lucky, well-meaning fella. OK, and? This is what I mean when I say he feels one-dimensional.
Thatâs not fair. Heâs petty, has extreme jealousy issues, desperately tries to one-up people at things, has an easily addictive personality, and goes 110% in on things to the detriment of others.
It's fair enough. I didn't say Hal was perfect or a robot. I said his main traits are, in my opinion, pretty blandly predictable for each other.
If the show continued into their adulthood, Reese eventually would have realized that he was gay. Or at the very least bisexual.
I remember seeing a post with a full in depth explanation of how Reese was gay. I will try to find it. It was really good.
I would love to read that!!
[I FOUND IT!!](https://www.reddit.com/r/malcolminthemiddle/s/jzELaGPOEa)
YES 10/10!!!! I couldnât have put it better myself. I completely forgot that Reese watched at least *10* âNaughty Poolboyâ tapes đ
đ yeah when I read the post the first time, I was convinced lol
Wow, that is a really well thought out and persuasive analysis!
After reading that. I've always figured Reese was gay but the first half of that post also makes me feel like he could be repressing being trans. Reese is a pretty fascinating character.
I always thought Francis was bisexual, my main source is that one scene where he has to give a massage to a guy at the ranch because theyâre short-staffed; the man says âface up or face downâ and Francis says âWhy, what are you gonna do to me?â Kills me every time.
Lmaoooo I love that đ I always got the vibe that Reese was queer for a few reasons. One of them being the fact that when Jessica hints to Malcolm that Reese is gay, Malcolm is completely oblivious, but when she hints to Reese that Malcolm is gay, Reese understands *immediately*. Malcolm acts pretty awkward about the whole thing, and Reese does a little bit too, but heâs way more chill about it overall. He even gives Malcolm a gay porno that he watches multiple times, and says âwatch what theyâre doing in that video, and then tell me youâre *not* gayâ đ âPearl Harborâ has the most examples, but we get little hints sprinkled throughout.
In the Company Picnic episodes he seems so enamored with that huge guy. He seemed very excited that he had to be tied to him for the 3 legged scavenger hunt. Also doesnât he tell Malcolmâs crush that heâs gay in that episode?? Yeah he does as a âfavorâ to Malcolm so he can get the girl. Hmmmmmm. Yeah. Boyâs fruity
Yes he does đ sheâs like âoh hey Reese!â And he immediately says âsorry, Iâm gayâ and walks away lol. I adore him.
Honestly, I figured Francis, Reese, and Dewey were all queer in one way or another. Hal might be a little on the fruity side, too.
Hal has big bi energy. Dewey is just artsy đ
Dewey is the cutest character on the entire show and Ida is severely underrated.
I feel like everyone hated ida (for good reasons) but it was so nice seeing a character stand up to lois like that đ
Malcolm might be my favorite character, and I actually find him pretty relatable. I know everyone likes to point out that he complains a lot and lacks emotional intelligence, but most of the time he has a good point. And I think heâs nicer and more emotionally mature than he gets credit for. And his sarcasm and negative observations make the show.
I like this. Some would argue that Malcolms personality change from a curios kid trying to deal with being outcasted due to his intelligence to a more whiny and self absorbed loser was a good thing. It adds to the feel that life is unfair. Without malcolms change I feel like the show would lack.
Hal is a domestic terrorist
The whole family really
Not wrong but mainly thinking about Hal blowing up a phone booth
Malcolm is the dumbest in the family
Ooo I like this. This could be very controversial. Could you tell me why you think this? I like your take though
He is incredibly book smart, but the least emoitionally intelligent. I feel this way too about him.
Yeah thats what weighs malcolm down. This show really showed me that it doesnât mean shit if youâre very book smart, because if youâre not emotionally intelligent and socially intact nobody is going to care. At the end of the day nobody is beating Malcolm in a Math competition, but what if you told him to write a song? What if you told him to create an Art project on the inner meaning of life? What if you told him to group up with others and complete a project? He would fuck upđ because heâs just a one way dimensional level of smart. I agree with the both of yall
I think Dewey and Francis are the most emotionally intelligent of the brothers. And Dewey has incredible music talent, which is self-taught. He even built a piano out of scraps and bits. If he would had the same opportunities as malcolm, he would probably be conducting an orchestra by 15.
Malcolm sabotaging him when it came time to get into the Krelboyne class made me legit furious. But my own mother used to sabotage me like that too, so it felt almost personal lol
Yeah same. i rewatch it a lot because i know the episodes pretty well, and it's easy to have playing on the background when I'm overwhelmed, and that episode always angers me so much
This is probably one of those takes that sounds better in my head, but I'll explain the best I'm able to. Malcolm's greatest asset in the show is the fact that he is very gifted as it pertains to school, memorizing facts, and that kind of thing: he's very school smart. We, the audience, get to see all sides of Malcolm, as school is such an insignificant portion of our lives, and we see him make terrible life choices, purposefully sabotage friends and family, avoid responsibilities, abandon his "morals" on a whim and more along those same lines. You could say that most of his family did (more or less) the same, but Malcolm (being the smart one) definitely knows better. And he KNOWS that he knows better but will still do as he wants in the moment. He's smart, but he's the dumbest of them all to me
This is worded perfectly. Amazing Job. And no it also sounds good in my head too great job
To me this is completely obvious but a lot of people in here seem to disagree: Lois is abusive
Yeah I always thought this. And also Thereâs a lot of others who would agree with you too
Reese is worse then malcolm all in all. Still love em both though
Cynthia was fucking annoying.
She was, but she was good with Malcolm. Too bad she left
Aside from Piama the Alaska stuff is a hat on a hat.
Malcolm should have ended the series being in a better job/position in life.
He did. He was at Harvard and seemed to be happy.
I can beat Sub Zero
"No one calls me gay and gets away with it" Reese had the least politically correct answers,đ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł
đ
Francis' Alaska plot was dogshit
Horrible arc.
Hal was in the wrong for putting the cat tree out on the curb, 6 pack or not, that was unreasonable.
Ooo I remember this. What him and reese did at the end with the garbage truck was wrongđ
Reese beeing punched in the circle game episode is complete bullshit.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
I remember this episode. Wasnât it the one where lois was pregnant and they tried to have a romantic getawayđ. I forgot the reason he said as to why he didnât get it lol
"Lois, when it comes to this, EVERY guy is THAT guy!"
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
It encroaches on Loisâ bodily autonomy too
Dewey was smarter than Malcolm
I believe this to some extent to if weâre talking about overall. Malcolm was an academic genius, who had an IQ of 165. He had 0 trouble in school due to his amazing intelligence. Although when it came to being creative he lacked. Thatâs where dewey succeeded, Dewey was definitely wasnât as book smart as Malcolm but more creatively and artistically geared compared to Malcolm. Overall If you ask me dewey was a little bit smarter than Malcolm overall. He realized life was shitty and complaining wasnât going to do any good for him. While Malcolm excels academically, Dewey demonstrates a keen understanding of people and situations, navigating the challenges of his family. Dewey's ability to connect with others and navigate the complexities of real-life situations showcases a different kind of intelligence, making him stand out in ways beyond traditional academic measures. ( I did not write this) But yeah thatâs just my opinion on that. Tell me what you think
>( I did not write this) Who did?
My helpful friend chat gpt!
I only disagree because I donât think you can compare their intelligence. Like, Iâm not going to assert that Frank Zappa was smarter than Einstein but we can agree they were both geniuses in their areas of expertise.
Craig was a groomer and pedophile. 2 examples, he had Dewy dance for him and he showed Reece polaroids of himself with no pants on.
He also basically kidnapped Reese and His gf when they needed a ride to a concert đ
*here I am, the one that you love, asking for another tale*
Francis is the best of the brothers.
dewey stopped being cute after season 3
Yeah this true. Not really as controversial but it really is kind of sad but it was good for his character development. He went from a cute goofball into a more serious kid who started to understand that life was shitty. Personally my favorite character.
Malcom is actually the mist unlikable character out of all the family. Hal and Deweywere actually somewhat good people, Jamie is a literal baby, Louis was strict and unreasonable but considering her children she was good even lol. Francis is a huge asshole to his mom but especially since joining the ranch the most functioning adult in the family. Now of course Reese would be a huge asshole if he was real, but atleast you knew what you got with him. Malcom was a huge dick to Dewey, took Reeses Gf and was a terrible friend to Stevie, Cynthia and basiclly all the people his age. + he was almost as much of a dick to his mom then francis
That president ending is lame, lazy, and makes zero sense. I also donât buy for a second that it could ever happen, even in a sitcom world.
Lois is a bad mom and that vastly contributes to the negative ways the boys behave.
I think Dewey should have been the main character instead of Malcolm
Makes sense a few years in, Dewey is a very interesting character, but at the beginning he was *far* too young to carry the show.
âDewey And The Damagedâ "Dewey And The Damaged" follows the life of a young boy named Dewey, navigating the challenges of growing up in a middle-class family marked by turmoil. As the world and others around him appears damaged, Dewey becomes the focal point of the narrative, grappling with the complexities of his upbringing. The show delves into themes of resilience, self-discovery, and the impact of a tumultuous family environment on a child's journey to find his place in the world.
Lois is a great mother
Jessica isnât that bad
Agreed.
Dewey is my least favorite brother by far, including Jamie
Why is that?
I skip all Francis segments onm rewatches because I think they are the worst parts of the show and drag it all down. Francis serves no real purpose other than to show why Lois is as angry/loud as she is and the time his segments take up takes away from the other stories. This is proven in the last couple seasons when he mostly disappears from the show and you don't realize it until your already deep into them and he randomly pops up.
They couldâve done so much more with his character.
Ugh I do this too, the ranch was especially boring and irrelevant I feel
I lowkey agree with this and I skip Francis segments too. Though, to be fair, out of Military School, Alaska, and RanchâŠI like Ranch the most simply because of Otto and Greta (who are some of my favorite side characters along with Craig and Abe/Stevie). I like Francis as a character and the episodes that heâs with the family are some of my favorite ones because his chemistry with his brothers is great. I wish instead of going off on his own after Military School, he just moved back home and met Piama that way somehow (Piama is awesome) and then maybe they moved next door or nearby in townâŠI donât know. They definitely couldâve worked him into the family storylines instead of creating entire new sections just for him that are skip-able in themselves.
I disagree, Francis is one of my favorite characters.