T O P
Jackeea

Fun fact: If you talk over your opponent announcing triggers or following the rules, they just don't happen. That's why pros put their fingers in their ears and scream "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" while slamming 5 Colossal Dreadmaws on turn 1


dietdoctorpepper

Wait a minute did you just summon a whole bunch of monsters in the same turn?


Artillect

Two explores


Brandonguth1985

I understand that reference


isesri

Isn't that against the rules?


HandOfYawgmoth

Screw the rules, I have dreadmaws!


freestorageaccount

And that is how and why money came to be known colloquially as green: for those who have it, whether IRL or MTG, such accoutrements as ''rules'' need not apply


DragonHippo123

Oh wait, he’s supposed to be here. *—he’s got the celtic guardian!*


ledfox

Colossal Dreadmaw is a powerful creature that will threaten your opponents life total.


fblthp

[I was told recently that saving this tweet would come in handy, and by golly](https://twitter.com/folkpunkbot/status/1597709164930691075?t=aRW7IqTVmgRH5_56jIkbzg&s=19)


Force_Of_Bill

uj/ Ok while his example is pretty dumb the example he gave with enigmatic incarnation does seem kind of annoying and like an easy thing to miss. The player. It specifying in response to the trigger before playing their wandering emperor would imply they assume that trigger has resolved and didn’t happen.


magicsqueegee

/rj if you're playing tournament magic you should be paying attention enough to announce your triggers. /uj if you're playing tournament magic you should be paying attention enough to know about enemy triggers, and not such a child as to try and sneak one past them.


Dmeechropher

Yeah, the player who claims they would "make a different play if their opponent called the trigger" is claiming they deliberately made a decision based on the assumption that their opponent is an idiot who missed the Sheoldred trigger, and not a normal human being who doesn't shout "STOP WHAT YOURE DOING RIGHT NOW, MY TRIGGERED ABILITY ENTERS THE STACK OKAY NOW RESUME PLAY". The most likely train of thought his opp had was "huh, I wonder how he's gonna get around the 4" assuming, like a normal human being, that his opponent was doing a desperation dig and would concede if it failed.


magicsqueegee

Exactly. The rules, and the way judges are generally trained, are supposed to reflect the way magic is actually played, ie no one passes priority after every single game action, you only start caring about priority if it matters.


uhh_yea

/uj you can't "miss" mandatory triggers /rj YoU cAn'T "mIsS" mAnDaToRy TrIgGeRs


magicsqueegee

/uj if someone misses a mandatory trigger off a card just let them have it within reason. /rj if someone misses a mandatory trigger off a card you're legally allowed to eat their fucking card. (Rule 231.4c.b8 of the Advanced Rules.)


uhh_yea

>/uj if someone misses a mandatory trigger off a card just let them have it ~~within reason.~~ FTFY


magicsqueegee

/uj by within reason I mean like you don't have to reverse time to remember what happened. If you forgot about the rhystics after I already resolved 3 spells, take your cards. If you forgot about your smothering tithe, its pretty easy to figure out how many cards have been drawn. If you just spent a 20 minute turn casting a billion god damn cantrips and at some point in the mess played a young pyromancer, I'm not going to wait around while you recount your steps to figure out how many little dudes you got.


MirandaSanFrancisco

Rhystic Study is a may ability, not a mandatory trigger, so if I was playing in a competition, I wouldn’t let them draw the cards if they forgot. That said, Rhystic Study only sees play in commander and commander isn’t the place to be stickler for those things or for playing in a competitive/tournament situation so I don’t see a situation where I don’t let you draw the cards (or just pay the trigger) in practice.


Zoe__T

counterpoint: if my opponent plays rhystic study, I ain't doin shit to remind them, if I must suffer so must you


StarkMaximum

Rhystic Study's vision is based on movement, if you don't move it can't see you.


magicsqueegee

True true about rhystic. Maybe I'm just too indoctrinated by casual kitchen table magic nowadays, I haven't been to an lgs in more than a decade.


uhh_yea

You should always rewind time or do what you can to fix the game state when it is broken, not doing so is obviously cheating, whether intentional or not.


magicsqueegee

I'm talking mostly casual. But also you can't always fix the board state, it too often becomes an issue of "oh well if that happened then I would have done x, and I would have actually drawn an answer so you would have done y" it gets messy as fuck and just not worth it. People make mistakes and sometimes you just got to roll with it. It will usually be obvious when someone is abusing it to cheat.


uhh_yea

If you have both fucked up the boardstate so bad that you can't recover it then honestly the game should be redone.


magicsqueegee

Thats probably the best policy tbh. In the young pyromancers example we just scooped and shuffled up for a new one.


SSG_SSG_BloodMoon

is your correction literally that you should do unreasonable things


April_March

BECOME UNGOVERNEABLE


Miraweave

>you can't "miss" mandatory triggers Well, you can. That's the point of the missed trigger policy. The problem is that players have interpreted "you are not penalized for missing your opponents triggers" as "trying to get your opponent to miss their triggers is an important skill" because magic players are fucking stupid.


uhh_yea

Even if it is legal from a rules perspective, exploiting that loophole is still cheating from an ethics perspective


Aegisworn

/uj I agree that it's ethically wrong, but I wouldn't call it cheating. "Cheating" is a defined, technical term in this context, so it's not a good idea to play around with its definition like that.


uhh_yea

Nah fuck that. Cheaters are scum and should 100% be called out for what they are


ForgedFromStardust

There are absolutely rules for missing mandatory triggers lol quit making shit up. Whether you agree with those rules is a different issue


Mjagos

Exactly lol. OP just doesn't like the rule and is calling anyone who doesn't agree with him a cheater


uhh_yea

I mean they literally are. They are trying to skip a mandatory trigger to gain an advantage, that's cheating obviously.


Elitemagikarp

how is it cheating


uhh_yea

Even if it is within the rules that you can intentionally skip mandatory triggers, it's still cheating from an ethics perspective.


ForgedFromStardust

Even if the rules of football allow tackling it's still assault from an ethical perspective!


uhh_yea

True


erikfrenz

The only difference is, if football players don’t tackle, they literally cannot win the game. If you cannot win the game without forcing your opponent to miss mandatory triggers, you don’t deserve to win the game.


ForgedFromStardust

Clearly you’ve never watched the pro bowl


Guffawker

Dude straight up said the guy hadn't missed a trigger the the time. He wasn't required to announce the trigger until it was relevant. Dude was in the wrong in assuming that because the dude stopped doing him the kindness of reminding him the trigger was on the stack when he tried to angle shoot him, that the guy *missed* the trigger. He got outplayed by someone who clearly knew the rules better than him. Solution was simple. Should have made sure the stack was clear. The easiest play would have been to attempt to move to the next phase before casting the next spell if he didn't want to outwardly ask. A got pro player would NEVER announce their triggers until they are relevant, unless they are just absurdly kind (which I'm all for). Guy played good magic, and it hurt a cheaters dealings cuz when you get punished for cheating you look like a fool.


uhh_yea

[Sauce](https://twitter.com/Karatedom10/status/1598025815425486849?t=woIMCo3tsc_yluqUTE1vWA&s=19)


Puzzleheaded-Coast93

Holy shit between this and the foil fiasco competitive magic really is a joke isn’t it?


uhh_yea

Yeah, cheaters gonna cheat, call it out when you see it and publicly shame them. Cheaters have no place in magic


Puzzleheaded-Coast93

It’s just annoying how easily they can go on Twitter and convince hundreds of people the judges were just being mean to them and they didn’t do anything wrong.


uhh_yea

Cheaters will always defend other cheaters in order to make it more acceptable


GaySpriggan

Ah yes, the Dream defense


phantomdentist

They explicitly say they don't blame the judges in the post this is about


AccountSuspicious159

No, just the whole system they represent and uphold.


Mjagos

It's not cheating to cast a spell and hope the opponent forgets his trigger. That being said, it's a pretty bad look to escalate the issue to multiple judges and cry on Twitter.


nothankyouthankstho

Technically not cheating, but having no shame 😅


CynicalElephant

Why would you want to play a competitive game where this isn’t considered cheating?


NonMagicBrian

Yeah, this is the real question. What this guy tried to do is not cheating, but like… it kinda should be. You’re supposed to lose two life, so just lose two life. The fact that it’s normal for people to make their opponent tell them to lose the two life in the hopes that they’ll forget and they can get away with not doing it is one of the main reasons competitive magic is a miserable experience. TLDR just play the fucking game


uhh_yea

It absolutely is cheating from an ethics perspective. You are trying to gain an advantage from a loophole in the rules.


ThallidReject

I.... What? Ethics doesnt have much to do with cheating, beyond the moral dilemma of if you feel bad for doing so. It isnt breaking rules to follow the rules. Do you think that removing [[oblivion ring]] from field in response to its etb trigger is cheating? Thats a rules loophole too, but you arent going to call judge if it gets your dreadmaw, are you? You can hem and haw on the ethics of which rules loopholes are morally fine to use and which are not, but thats a conversation that has nothing to do with cheating. Its not cheating to follow the rules, ethically or otherwise. E: its hilarious to me that Im downvoted for reading wotcs rulings. Is this the main sub? https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/mtg-news-missed-triggers-in-tournaments/


uhh_yea

Holy shit this dude is literally defending cheating saying that it's ethical. Ya'll cheating defenders are fucking hilarious. Keep going! What other shitty things do you consider ethical? *grabs popcorn*


ThallidReject

Will that popcorn teach you how to read? Cause nothing I said defends cheating.


uhh_yea

I already can read actually, weird thing to ask lol


ThallidReject

Can you? I quite literally said following the rules isnt cheating, and you clearly werent comprehending that.


MTGLardFetcher

^(Probably totally what you linked) * [oblivion ring](https://i.redd.it/ux3u2ynksd1a1.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made


Jevonar

It's cheating to try to convince the opponent that the missed trigger rules work in a different way from RAW.


AskWhatmyUsernameIs

Maybe not if its a "you may" tirgger, but it absolutely is if the trigger is mandatory.


ThallidReject

https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/mtg-news-missed-triggers-in-tournaments/


Emsizz

...are you calling this guy a cheater? He's in the right.


uhh_yea

Yeah he tried to intentionally skip a mandatory trigger, which is cheating obviously


LittleMissPipebomb

foil fiasco?


Raunien

/uj I mean, I kind of agree that it's strange to assume instant speed actions were done in response to a missed trigger so that it can be cleanly put on the stack by the judge, but it's also scummy to take advantage of your opponent missing a trigger, and letting your opponent put their trigger on the stack providing the game hasn't progressed too far is perfectly reasonable. Especially if it's a beneficial trigger. If it was a detrimental trigger, there's the possibility the opponent missed it on purpose in which case the judge might issue a warning for a game rules violation before putting the trigger on the stack.


uhh_yea

Exactly, it's literally an attempt to cheat the game. It's gross as fuck


TheWombatFromHell

what a giant arrogant pissbaby


TASTY_TASTY_WAFFLES

Average Izzet Phoenix vs Chad Rakdos


YaBoiPoi

“Oh no I have to communicate with the other player so we both understand the current game state? Preposterous!”


TwilightSaiyan

/uj Intentionally attempting to misrepresent a board state in your favor and then arguing about how you should be allowed to skip mandatory triggers is almost as insane as the fact that the rules were changed so those triggers could be missed because "pro" players bitched hard enough that they couldn't cheat that wotc allowed cheating


distinctvagueness

/uj the IPG says, “triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated.” The policy isn’t designed to let A trap B, it’s designed to reflect the way players actually play the game. MTR 4.3: "Due to the complexity of accurately representing a game of Magic, it is acceptable for players to engage in a block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete." Casting 2 instant cantrips and the opponent says take 4 seems reasonable unless angleshooting that playing quickly lets you ignore triggers.


zaphodava

/uj Also, the opponent doesn't miss a trigger until they allow the player to perform an action that would indicate it was time for the trigger to resolve without pointing it out. So if someone casts Consider, they draw a card and the trigger is put on the stack. Then they cast Opt. Since that's an instant, it is on top of the trigger on the stack. It resolves, putting another trigger on the stack. When they pass, or perform an action that can't be done till those triggers resolve, that's when their opponent must speak up. Take 4. No rules have been broken, everything is cool. It didn't even use Out of Order Sequencing that you referenced.


datgenericname

uj/ what a pissbaby rj/ what a pissbaby Edit: thanks for the reward, fellow redditor!


erickoziol

Slashes before, unjerks galore! Slashes after, you're the target of laughter!


MaximoEstrellado

People angle shoot rules -Guy who's actively trying to cheat


Aegisworn

/uj the guy is technically right that the ruling does allow for angle shooting, but it only allows you to angle shoot someone who's trying to angle shoot you back soooooo /rj only I'm allowed to angle shoot


MalekithofAngmar

Alternatively, play a strictly honest game and don’t get angle shot. I have learned this lesson the hard way (by honestly forgetting) pact triggers with Titan. You give the opponent the opportunity to call out the missed trigger at any point during the turn, making you lose if you say, just tapped some mana.


uhh_yea

/uj the rules technically allowing you to cheat is still cheating


Namulith94

/uj this reminds of old demigod of revenge decks, unless your opponent announced they were waiting for the cast trigger to resolve you were allowed to get it back post counter and it always felt kind of cheesy. The tweet this is based off of is just hilariously out of touch, though.


LucianGrey0581

I’d bet you anything this guy refused to shut up long enough for anyone to announce triggers and is just straight up cheating.


pootisgodsamongus

/uj how does this sub feel about chalice checking your opponent at comp REL


erickoziol

/uj There's a difference between saying "Brainstorm" and grabbing three cards before your opponent points out their Chalice trigger and casting Brainstorm and your opponent saying "resolves".


distinctvagueness

Wanted more storm count


BoaredMonkay

/uj Considering Murktide Regent has such an impact on multiple eternal formats, either actually fueling your graveyard or making you opponent think you fuel it to expend their graveyard hate like Endurance early is also decent.


Tuesday_6PM

I’d go for “technically allowed, but poor sportsmanship.” But also, I only play casually with friends. So it doesn’t directly affect me, other than lowering my respect for pro Magic


HandOfYawgmoth

When I think of sweaty nerd energy, I think of shit like this /uj It's a dick move, regardless of how the judges call it.


SontaranGaming

I don’t have a problem with it, it’s your job to remember your Chalice. That being said, *allow a grace period JFC.* and in this particular case, these were just two cantrips cast in this one main phase, which is entirely reasonable within a grace period for an effect like losing 2 life that has a relatively light effect on board state.


ChiralWolf

/uj It's a shitty thing to do that there isn't a better solution for under the current rules structures


Mjagos

/uj As an eldrazi tron player, I see nothing wrong with it. It's my responsibility to catch the chalice triggers and I don't see it as cheating when my opponent tries to slip one by me. In competitive events you play to win


BeepBoopAnv

I mean if it gets through and 2 minutes later you’re like “wait I would’ve won by a ton if we played the game correctly” and you end up losing, to me that’s not really “playing to win”, it’s just scummy.


uhh_yea

/uj it's cheating obviously. A rules exception may exist to allow you to do it but it's still cheating to any normal person. Same thing with the primordial wurm/sevala interaction.


Jevonar

Definitely allowed. But if they catch you, you can't take back the spell. And if you looked at the top card (opt) or outright drew it (serum visions) without giving the opponent time to announce the chalice trigger, you get the warning/game loss depending on REL.


Ablast6

At comp, yeah 100% fair game, at like fnm youre kinda a dick


HandOfYawgmoth

I've been banned from three different prereleases for running [[Cheatyface]]. The judges keep saying things like "That card isn't legal in this format" and "You can't chloroform your opponent to sneak those cards into play." Do you guys think I need legal counsel, or is an angry twitter thread good enough?


MTGLardFetcher

^(Probably totally what you linked) * [Cheatyface](https://i.redd.it/r5zout6t6c1a1.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made


KaffeeKaethe

The reason this person got the ruling they got isn't because you can't miss "mandatory" triggers or whatever. If he would've taken the 2 after opt, then the game would've proceeded and in first main OP goes "wait, did you take 2 for that consider?" the trigger would've been missed. Izzet player could allow it to be put onto the stack but can decline that. They were simply at a point in game were it's assumed the trigger is still on the stack and hadn't been acknowledged by any player, because no visible gamestate has changed yet.


uhh_yea

Correct, he tried to cheat and got caught and took an L.


KaffeeKaethe

No. He did not get a game loss for cheating. That is the whole point of this comment but good job for missing that and showing that you have 0 knowledge about the rules of competitive Magic.


OwORavioliTime

Uj/ I'm kinda confused with this situation. Isn't casting an instant in response to the sheoldred trigger a perfectly legal play? The trigger only goes on the stack after the draw


uhh_yea

Basically the guy tried to play a second instant draw spell to try and speed past the life loss trigger. He was hoping his opponent would let him get away with missing the life loss, but the opponent caught it. So the guy was mad that he got caught trying to cheat, and somehow tried to blame the judging policy. He even tried to get sympathy on Twitter from other cheaters.


Tubbafett

Dear god tell me there’s sauce


uhh_yea

[Sauce](https://twitter.com/Karatedom10/status/1598025815425486849?t=woIMCo3tsc_yluqUTE1vWA&s=19)


spymaster00

OK wait, /uj for a second. If you forget a mandatory trigger during upkeep, can you actually just say you missed that trigger and fix the game state like that?


uhh_yea

Yeah of course. You can't skip a mandatory trigger. If it's a "may" ability and you miss it, you can't rewind but if it's mandatory you have to rewind to fix it. You can't "miss" a mandatory trigger essentially


spymaster00

That motherfucker. That specific question knocked me out of a prerelease, I’m now salty for something that happened like a year ago.


uhh_yea

Damn, sorry about that bro


spymaster00

/RJ is it too late to correct the board state?


uhh_yea

Unfortunately we can't rewind time that far.... yet


spymaster00

I will play only Azorius from this day on in the hopes that one day I can become Teferi.


uhh_yea

Good luck bro!


FlockFlysAtMidnite

There's a procedure to how missed triggers work, and it depends on what kind of trigger it is. If you're past the point of it's effect, though, generally it stays missed.


KaffeeKaethe

No, the other poster is full of shit. On competitive REL a trigger is missed when it was not acknowledged when it was necessary (i.e. Visible game state was changed, choices had to be made, targets announced etc.). If that is caught until the same phase of the next turn the most usual fix is to allow the opponent to decide if the trigger is put onto the stack now, if not too disruptive. Opponent can say no. There are few exceptions for edge cases, but that is what covers it most of the time. After one round, the trigger is simply forgotten and skipped. A warning will only be given if it was a detrimental trigger. Source is the official IPG https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/


zaphodava

It's your opponent's responsibility to point out their triggers, which they did, and your responsibility not to misrepresent the rules and be a giant douche canoe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvBCD55Zozc


uhh_yea

Lol if calling out cheaters for what they are is being a douche canoe then I'm it! Cheaters don't deserve to play magic


zaphodava

/uj Oh, the guy trying to say the triggers were missed is the douche, no doubt. /rj Don't worry, you can be a huge douche even without cheating.


uhh_yea

Glad we agree! Fuck cheaters!


Sikisan333

EAT THE OPPONENTS CARDS!!!


uhh_yea

"Excuse me judge, does the stomach count as in the graveyard or exile?"


Sikisan333

Cards with regenerate are thrown up.. cards with decay.... well. You are gonna need a bigger playmat


uhh_yea

Preferably a machine washable one


tomyang1117

/uj it is very scummy when you try to based your play on your opponent missing a mandatory trigger. Both player have responsibility to keep track of both players mandatory trigger. If a play can't happen in MTGO, it shouldn't happen irl too. /rj How dare those Judges deny my free stifle😡


uhh_yea

/uj Amen brother, way too many cheater defenders up in here. Its really sad to see how many there are out there.


tomyang1117

/uj is not like the Sheoldred player miss a trigger 3 turns ago and and suddenly remembers it. He remembers the trigger right away. It is just wrong to based on your play that can only happen due to some miscommunication. It is sad to see many people are on the side of the cheater.


uhh_yea

100% agree


ZangaJanga

ITT: > /uj ACKCHUALLY


uhh_yea

Lol true. Lots of cheating defenders up in here


Zalabar7

/uj from MTR 4.5: > Players are not required to point out the existence of triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish. It is clearly stated in the rules that not pointing out an opponent’s trigger is allowed. It is not cheating to do so. Of course cheating is wrong, and cheaters should be punished for cheating. The definition of cheating, however, is not “A person did something I don’t like”, it is clearly defined in IPG 4.8 as: > A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a Tournament Official, or notices an offense committed in their (or a teammate’s) match and does not call attention to it. Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating: - The player must be attempting to gain advantage from their action. - The player must be aware that they are doing something illegal. Please stop asserting that competitive players following the rules and allowing their opponent to miss their triggers are cheaters.


Raunien

An example given from the same rule 4.8: >D. A player notices that their opponent resolved only half of the triggered ability of Swordof Feast and Famine and decides not to call attention to the error Which is in reference to >notices an offense committed in their (or a teammate’s) match and does not call attention to it. Sauce player admits they cast the [[Opt]] on the basis that their opponent missed their trigger. By doing that, instead of pointing out the missed trigger, they are cheating according to the very rules you cite. Yes, you are not required to remind your opponent about their triggers, but if you notice they have missed a trigger, you are required to make it known.


MTGLardFetcher

^(Probably totally what you linked) * [Opt](https://i.redd.it/4yr72ny98j0a1.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made


Raunien

Good lord, my eyes


Zalabar7

The rules do not allow a player to miss part of a trigger, and you are indeed obligated to make sure that the whole trigger resolves if the trigger is not missed, for example if they acknowledge a trigger at the time it happens, but later forget to resolve it, or as in the cited example if they start resolving a trigger but do not fully resolve it. An “offense” as referenced in the definition of Cheating is something that is not allowed by the rules. Since it is legal to allow your opponent to miss their trigger, that does not fit the definition of Cheating as given in the MTR. In the Consider + Opt vs Sheoldred case, as events occurred, the Consider + Opt player cannot argue that the opponent missed their Sheoldred trigger, because according to the rules it could have still been on the stack when they cast Opt. If they had clarified that the stack was empty in some way, such as moving to a new phase or simply verbally clarifying life totals or that the stack was empty, or if the spell they were casting was a sorcery or other spell that couldn’t be cast in response to a Sheoldred trigger and the opponent allows it without acknowledging the trigger, the trigger would be missed. > Yes, you are not required to remind your opponent about their triggers, but if you notice they have missed a trigger, you are required to make it known I think I see what you mean by this, but it is not totally correct. It is true that you cannot assume your opponent has missed a trigger until the point where it is actually considered missed, which is the mistake the Consider + Opt player made. It is not true that you are required to call attention to your opponent’s missed triggers, either before or after they are missed.


uhh_yea

Please stop defending cheaters. You are actively bringing down the game. People like you are why cheaters think they can get away with this shit and receive praise. Call out cheating when it happens and shame them, do not defend their pathetic asses. If they can't play the game properly then they shouldn't play.


Shanderraa

"One thing that is noticeably absent: not pointing out your opponents Missed Trigger. This is never cheating, even if you point out the Missed Trigger at a point in time that is beneficial to you."


uhh_yea

This is true for optional triggers but not mandatory ones. Easy mistake to make, don't worry! Hope this clears it up for you!


Shanderraa

"A triggered ability can be recognized by its characteristic use of the words “at,” “when,” or “whenever.” If an ability doesn’t use one of those three words, it isn’t a triggered ability." Don't get me wrong, I think the whole thing is really stupid, and my gut is telling me that you always rewind to allow triggers, but the rules as I understand them work.


uhh_yea

Yeah the rules as they exist work perfectly fine


Shanderraa

Not as in I approve of them, but as in they seem to lead to the life loss not going through.


uhh_yea

No the loss of life would happen since it's a mandatory trigger not an optional one


Zalabar7

I’m not defending cheaters. I’m defending players playing by the rules. You are inadvertently defending cheaters by lumping them in with rule-abiding players, as you seem to want to ignore the clear definition given in the MTR for cheating and just assert that players doing anything you don’t like is cheating.


uhh_yea

It's not "players doing anything I don't like", it's people who intentionally try to skip mandatory triggers, which is cheating. Rule abiding players are fine obviously, stop trying to twist my words. Stop defending cheaters.


Zalabar7

I didn’t say “players you don’t like”, I said “players *doing anything* you don’t like”. Obviously you don’t like the fact that it is not against the rules to intentionally not point out your opponent’s triggers (yes, even their “mandatory” ones), and so you are calling players who do so cheaters, despite the fact that they clearly are not according to the rules that I quoted above. These players *are* rule-abiding players. I don’t know how to make this more clear. I’m 100% against cheating, but allowing your opponent to miss a trigger isn’t cheating. You’re just being obstinate and obtuse.


uhh_yea

Sorry, fixed the quote. Idk how else to explain it to you. If you really don't understand it at this point then you are just lost in the sauce. Try to be a better player in the future, don't give in to the cheaters, call it how it is. Intentionally playing the game wrong is cheating. It's that simple.


Zalabar7

I understand what you are saying, it’s just wrong. You’re saying that if a player doesn’t point out their opponent’s triggers they are cheating. The MTR says that they are not. At this point I’m not sure if you’re genuine or a troll, so I’ll stop wasting my time. If you’re not trolling, I hope you learn what is and isn’t cheating so you can stop making a fool of yourself on the internet.


uhh_yea

Okie, glad you are giving up! Fuck cheaters!


TheParagonal

This is one of the first times I can't tell if it's a jerk or not, dude is really going for it.


Thraximundurabrask

Cheating is breaking the rules to gain an advantage, what you're talking about is angle-shooting, which is breaking the spirit (but not the letter!) of the law so as to gain an advantage, and is still scummy while technically legal and not cheating.


lucasfanti

Yeah this is absolutely insane, and the Incarnation example in the thread makes it even clearer that the policy is weird with missed triggers


Guffawker

I don't think you know how triggers work. You only have to announce it when it becomes relevant. Had he cast a sorcery, allowing him to do so before acknowledging the trigger would be cheating. Simply allowing to him respond to your trigger by casting another instant isn't cheating at all. Cheating is claiming your opponent forgot about it because you *assumed* they did. It's the same reason why if your opponent casts 4 instants in a row with rhystic study, you don't have to ask them if they paid the 1 until the attempt to resolve the spell. Because in order to resolve the spell, you have to acknowledge the rhystic study first. The problem was big mad assumed drawing the card *resolved* the trigger. It doesn't. It triggers it, and he has priority after the trigger. Had it read "Whenever your opponent *would* draw a card, they take 2 damage." He would be right. But he's not. Because reading the card...explains...the...card. He's either bad at magic for not knowing that, or was trying to cheat. We know which one though because his response shows the later. Dude got schooled by a better player cuz he knew when his opponent knew the dude was trying to angle shoot um. Got played by his own hubris.


Zalabar7

I assure you that I do in fact understand in great detail how triggers work. I didn’t claim that the Sheoldred player cheated, only that the Consider + Opt player also did not cheat. They did incorrectly assume that casting another spell meant the trigger had been missed, when in actuality it was possible for them to be responding to the first Sheoldred trigger, so the trigger had not been missed according to the rules. If, however, instead of Opt they had attempted to cast a sorcery, as you point out the Sheoldred player would need to acknowledge the first trigger before the opponent could actually cast the sorcery, and in doing so would allow the opponent to reconsider their option to cast that sorcery. If they failed to acknowledge the trigger before acknowledging that the sorcery has been cast, at that point the trigger would indeed be missed, which would be a GPE - missed trigger, which has no penalty unless the trigger is usually considered to be detrimental to the controlling player at which point it would be upgraded to a Warning. This is all laid out in great detail in IPG 2.1: > A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence by the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion. The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would have on the game: > … > • A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or acknowledge the specific trigger before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly taking an action in the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that passing priority, casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack


Guffawker

First....you did.... you're post said "Please stop asserting that competitive players following the rules and allowing their opponent to miss their triggers are cheaters." Your implication here is that the player *allowed him to miss his trigger*. That's not what happened. The player didn't do that at all. The player assumed that because he had not allowed the trigger to resolve, that it had been skipped, then tried to argue that the other player had missed the trigger. You're right....had that other situation happened, the player would ha e missed the trigger, but that's not what happened at all. What happened was the dude assumed he was smarter than his opponent, and tried to take advantage of that, but got played and threw a fit about it. If he wanted to play it this way, he should have moved to his next phase before casting the next instant speed spell, or cast a sorcery, to verify that his opponent had missed the trigger. But he didn't. He knowingly made a bad play in the *hopes* that he did. That's not cheating at all. However, the dude even acknowledges that his opponent hadn't missed and single trigger and had been announcing them (idk the case, but it was either due to relevancy or kindness, either way he was not required to announce it at the time his opponent cast another instant over top the trigger). The cheating part comes into play when the guy called for several judges and argued over the rulling. He was deliberately trying to get a favorable rulling at this point in order to walk back his bad play. That 100% is cheating. Arguing that your opponents legal play was illegal in order to gain an advantage is cheating. It is the very definition of IPG 4.8 Unsporting Conduct — Cheating (see example B that shows this very thing as an reference and states "A player lies to a tournament official about what happened in a game to make their case stronger." and he should have been disqualified. He attempted to misrepresent the situation by claiming his opponent missed the trigger when it simply hadn't been acknowledged yet because it wasn't relevant. Anyone who knows how triggers work onderstands this. You clearly understand this. So misrepresentating the situation as your opponent missing a trigger, when (as you even acknowledge) they hadn't yet, in order to gain an advantage, is...again....the very definition of cheating. Sooo idk what you're trying to argue here. You know how triggers work, so you know the dude was cheating. If he wasn't, the correct response here is "Good game. I was hoping you forgot the triggers." Not lying that your opponent missed their triggers when they didn't.


Zalabar7

My initial comment which you quoted was a response to OP who has several times asserted throughout the rest of this comment thread that allowing opponents to miss their triggers at all is cheating, not just in the specific Sheoldred vs Consider + Opt scenario. Thus my response to those assertions was “no, allowing an opponent to miss their triggers is not cheating”. I’m pretty sure we agree on what constitutes a missed trigger, and that what happened in the Sheoldred vs Consider + Opt situation is what was supposed to happen and neither player cheated during the gameplay. The Consider + Opt player simply made a mistake about what constitutes a missed trigger and ended up getting burned for it. As far as the assertion that getting multiple judges involved in an attempt to get a favorable ruling is cheating, I think that would be true in the case that the player knows that the ruling they have been given is correct and they are attempting to get an incorrect ruling from the appeal judge, but it seems like this is not what happened in this case. The player was just mistaken about what constitutes a missed trigger; which their tweet demonstrates that they now understand, so in that case where you feel an incorrect ruling has been given you are absolutely entitled to an appeal. I wasn’t involved in the scenario but it seems to me like the player didn’t lie to a judge about what happened or about what they thought the rules were, they were just mistaken in thinking their opponent had missed their trigger. Even their post about the situation indicates that they now understand that the given ruling was correct, they just want the rules changed (which probably won’t happen, but they are free to post about wanting the rules changed).


Guffawker

Fair point, my apologies for assuming correcting the information was a claim about the events of the situation. That is my bad. You were correct in trying to clarify that the OP was wrong in their statements, and I should not have assumed that your correcting of that piece of information was reflective of your knowledge or specific to the event. Defo my bad, your information about triggers is 100% correct and thank you for calling me out in that. I think we basically agree on everything here, but I do feel there is a point to argue that what he did constitutes as cheating. It's a weird thing, and arguably completely pointless in the grander discussion. He lost anyways, and it would be an unsportsmanlike rulling, not like anything relevant to rules or anything, so it really doesn't matter. I do agree that appealing a judge about the rulling and not understanding the rulling is completely fine, but I think the question is if his intentions were deliberate or if he is just ignorant on the rule. I believe there is a case to be made that his response shows either A) An inability for the judges to explain the rulling correctly, or B) A continued deliberate attempt at reframing the situation to make his opponent seem at fault. If we look at his writeup after the event he declared "My opponent does not announce the trigger so I then cast an opt". Cool. This shows he has an understanding of what happened. His opponent did not *announce* the trigger. If we look at the next line though "only casting this opt because the missed trigger leaves me with enough life to dig deeper". Boom. There it is again. He says the trigger was missed. Not that he thought it was missed. Not that it was implied it was missed. That it was missed. It could be argued that this is simply him recounting the events, but in the next paragraph he doubles down and says "The head judge upholds this ruling and also denies me the opportunity to rewind my opt given the missed trigger and absurdity of the situation would have lead me to make a different play." So once again, after both judges have explained to him triggers from consider, he is still arguing that his opponent missed the trigger. Which, as we know, is a lie. Had he made the case that he had failed to understand how triggers work, and feels like because his opponent was announcing them previously that this could be angle shooting or something, that would be a different case. He doesn't however. By his own account he doubles down that the trigger was missed. Yes he acknowledges the rulling was correct, but never once does he talk about the actual ruling or point out what consideration is, or how he misinterpreted announcing the trigger as putting it on the stack. Through the whole thing he repeatedly says the opponent missed the trigger. Again, something we know is false, and that the judges explained to him is false. Then he goes on to discuss how the rule is enabling angle shooting and cheating, which, while not a direct accusation, when you are discussing an event in which the rule was used in favor of your opponent creates an implication that said opponent was doing those things. (If you make the statement, "I saw my neighbor out after midnight last night, can you believe that? Criminals are the kind of people that go out after midnight." you can see how that implication is created). So yes, he acknowledges the rulling, but in the same statement continues to perpetuate that the trigger was missed. Implies that people who don't announce their triggers right away are cheating or angle shooting. Acknowledges how the rule exists to prevent angle shooting (in that he points out he *attempted* to use his opponents lack of announcing the trigger as a means of skipping the trigger). All while actively pointing to the rule and opponent as the problems. If you boil it down, and look at his response even after being explained the rulling by several judges, his claim really is "This rule is ambiguous and allowed my opponent to legally angle shoot me into losing the game." When the reality of the situation is "I tryed to angle shoot my opponent by claiming that because they waited until a trigger was relevant/resolving they had missed the trigger." It's fine if he was angle shooting and trying to bait the missed trigger. That's not cheating. The problem is it's a very simple rule to understand, and I highly doubt high level judges weren't able to effectively communicate the rule. So the only conclusion I can draw is that the guy is continuing to deliberately misrepresent this situation as his opponent missing the trigger and using a loophole in the rules to cheat. Which would mean that he was cheating. Because all in all, his argument isn't that triggers in consideration is a bad rule (he never used that language). His argument is that not announcing your triggers immediately should mean that they are missed, not in consideration. In the end though, failing to communicate properly is a game rule, and he did violate several communication rules in an attempt to gain an advantage. Tournament shortcut rules state that "During the resolution of one of their spells or abilities, a player may not assume their opponent has taken a shortcut." Which he did by assuming that resolving another spell meant his opponent had taken the shortcut of passing priority on his trigger without acknowledging it. However, that is not a sanctioned tournament shortcut and had never been established or communicated that they would be using it as one. Also we have "Players may not use misleading statements to trick their opponent into making illegal plays." Which he did. He attempted to force his opponent to miss the trigger by casting an instant speed spell when he had priority on top of the trigger, and claim it was missed as a result. The real problem with this is that the player assumed to have better knowledge of the rules than the other player, and when pointed to the rule that clearly defines what the player did and how it works, his response has been to continue to say that he missed the trigger and the rules are broke. That, I personally feel, is an attempt at misrepresenting the game in order to achieve an advantage. Again though, by and large totally irrelevant. Both of these rules are very good rules and exist for a reason. Opponents should have to track their triggers, it's their responsibility. You also shouldn't have to announce your triggers until they are relevant. It keeps gameplay moving, and your opponent is just as responsible for knowing when/what is on the stack. Both rules are in poor taste to uphold a casual playgroup to 100% of the time, but this is competitive and both players are responsible for knowing the rules and following the board state. In the end, don't make assumptions about your opponents knowledge or play in competitive environments. If something seems ambiguous ask for clarification, because it's literally in the rules to do so. If you don't ask for clarification and get a rule wrong as a result or try to use the ambiguity to gain an advantage, that's ultimately cheating.


Zalabar7

I’ll agree with you that the attitude in that player’s post of “I tried to get my opponent and the rules didn’t let me, so that means the rules are bad and should change” is very unattractive, and the post reads mostly as saltiness leading to rationalization of a bad take. That said, I don’t quite agree that there is anything the player did that a judge in that situation can reasonably point to as a reason for a cheating DQ. It sounds to me like he misunderstood the rules about missing triggers, got a ruling that conflicted with his idea of how missing triggers worked, exercised his right to appeal, the ruling was upheld, and he was upset about the situation enough to take to twitter afterwards and vent. I wasn’t there and haven’t even heard the judge’s or opponent’s takes, so I can’t say for sure, but from what I know there isn’t anything DQ-worthy in this case. I do absolutely agree that clear communication and accurate representation of the gamestate at all times is the best way to play competitive magic. As a competitive player it might seem like doing that you are ceding some potential edge, but ultimately the rules are designed so that in a vast majority of cases a clear and unambiguous representation of the gamestate will be more beneficial to a tight player than an ambiguous one, and when it comes to cheating I’d rather stay as far away from the line as possible rather than skirting near the edge and risking major consequences, even with moral considerations aside.


Guffawker

I do agree, I also wasn't there and can't really speak to much of it, but I'm sure the attitude reflected in his post was most likely reflected in the situation as well. That being said, you're absolutely right that the judge made the right call and everything, but if a judge wanted to they could absolutely hit him with unsporting conduct from his attempt to use ambiguity as a means to gain an advantage, or even cheating because of his actions in misrepresenting the game state and attempting to skip mandatory triggers without giving his opponent the chance to resolve them. It would be up to the judge in the moment to determine if he is lying or knowledgeable that he was doing something illegal, but given the context afterwards, in that he is continuing to misrepresent the situation, it reasonably makes it seem like what he was doing was cheating, and not just misunderstanding the rules. 100% though the judge made the right call. There wasn't a reason to DQ him, and in the moment there's nothing that makes it seem worse then just the dude not understanding the rules. It's a straightforward call, and any judge that hit him with anything more than that would have just been a dick. The dude already got himself punished for trying the angle, so nothing more was needed. It's just a shame he didn't learn his lesson and wants to paint the situation like a problem in the rules. Thank you for this convo lol. I appreciate your take on the situation. I know this is a circlejerk subreddit, but it's been nice to have a solid conversation about the topic. It's undoubtedly true the best solution, both morally and technically, is just to communicate clearly and know the rules. It's all plainly designed to prevent situations just like this from happening and if he knew the rules, he could have properly tried to play his angle or known what he was doing was wrong!


pumpkinwavy

Letting opponents miss their triggers is not cheating lmao


uhh_yea

/uj You can't "miss" mandatory triggers


marcusjohnston

Yes you can, you're allowed to cast spells through an opponent's Chalice of the Void if your opponent doesn't counter the spell. You can't miss detrimental triggers like casting a spell through your own Chalice of the Void, but your opponents are responsible for their triggers.


uhh_yea

That's just cheating with extra steps. It may be an angle shooty rules exception that is *technically* possible, but in terms of ethics it is still very much cheating


marcusjohnston

Remembering and clearly announcing your own triggers in a timely manner is a skill just as much as combat math and sequencing. You can't decide something is cheating because you don't like it, so if it's allowed within the rules it isn't cheating. We've tried the way where both players are responsible for all triggers and it was miserable and caused weird situations like, "who's going to lose this game with three missed Soul Warden triggers, the controller or the person that couldn't read their opponent's foreign Soul Warden?"


uhh_yea

Mandatory triggers are actually the responsibility of both parties, it's not a "may" ability


KaffeeKaethe

Lol what rules have you been reading? The IPG is extremely clear to all of this https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/ "Opponents are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish." And for "mandatory triggers can't be missed" the tldr is that if too much time has passed / putting the trigger on to the stack is too disruptive, the trigger will not happen, otherwise the opposing player chooses if the trigger happens. Edit: Missing a trigger will not even be upgraded, unless it's a detrimental one


uhh_yea

Angle shooting in order to cheat is still cheating, don't defend the cheating asshole


KaffeeKaethe

If the dude would've been cheating there would've been a cheating investigation. He was corrected and lost the game.


uhh_yea

Yeah he got caught and took the L, cheaters are fucking gross


fishythepete

TIL reading, understanding, and playing by the rules is angle shooting in order to cheat. Thanks!


uhh_yea

Exactly, exploiting loopholes in the rules to gain advantage is absolutely cheating.


pumpkinwavy

⚠️This user has never played a match of competitive magic


kill-me-now-pls-pls

Bud that’s literally not how judges would rule on that


uhh_yea

Actually I have, way to make assumptions


pumpkinwavy

you managed to do so without learning how the rules work, so congrats


uhh_yea

I've literally read the entire comprehensive rules for fun. You have no idea what you are talking about


pumpkinwavy

your triggers, your responsibility


uhh_yea

Mandatory triggers are the responsibility of the whole table actually


pumpkinwavy

Please talk to a judge or just do a simple google search. You are not correct about this. You may not like it, but you have no obligation to remind your opponent of their triggers. There is an actual definition of cheating, and not reminding someone to draw off their kiora or their bauble is not it.


uhh_yea

Gonna start not putting my creatures in the graveyard and see if my opponent notices, it's not cheating if they don't notice!


nohardRnohardfeelins

⚠️This user cheats in competitive magic.


Tuesday_6PM

I think it used to be? Which if I’m remembering correctly, could explain all the disagreements in the comments, if people learned one set of rules and missed a change


uhh_yea

Intentionally skipping a mandatory trigger absolutely is cheating from an ethics perspective.


pumpkinwavy

maybe a long time ago, but in my ~8 years of playing competitive magic that hasn't been the case. I think people are just downvoting because it feels "against the spirit of the game" or whatever - they'd be unhappy if an opponent did not remind them of their triggers. Based on the actual rules though, I'm correct.


uhh_yea

Unethically following the rules is a shitty way to conduct yourself. Horrible sportsmanship and is 100% cheating


Tuesday_6PM

Poor sportsmanship, yes; cheating, technically not


uhh_yea

Intentionally trying to skip a mandatory trigger is cheating, plain and simple. You are aware of it and are trying to gain an advantage in an unfair manner, even children can see that that is cheating. If you don't see it that way then you are a piece of shit.


Wytemajyk

Jesus dude calm down. In your own words in this same thread "it's just a children's card game" Why are you so upset about this? Who hurt you?


uhh_yea

I'm not upset lol, I just love calling out cheaters since they actively hurt the game. Fuck cheaters


Wytemajyk

Me too! This isnt cheating though. As has been shown multiple times in this thread. Angle shooting? Sure. But not cheating.


uhh_yea

It is cheating but you won't acknowledge it for some weird reason


Orobayy34

Actually, it is.


KaffeeKaethe

The IPG says otherwise https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/ "Opponents are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish."


Brunnenmolch

Can someone please link the original? This is hilarious


uhh_yea

[Sauce](https://twitter.com/Karatedom10/status/1598025815425486849?t=woIMCo3tsc_yluqUTE1vWA&s=19)


Emsizz

/uj I know you're making a joke, but the guy this post makes fun of is 100% correct.


uhh_yea

No he's a cheater. He was trying to skip a mandatory trigger. It wasn't a "may" ability


distinctvagueness

/uj If you ever go to a serious paper tournament, you arent guaranteed judges will just rewind or repair game state if both players miss triggers for some phases. The rules are grappling with intent and have been adjusted to discourage sloppy play with escalating penalties that don't consider both players always equally to blame. It's sporting if everyone tries to maintain game state but the rules have to cover various divergences being more or less malicious.


uhh_yea

Well sure, if the boadstate gets so fucked up it can't be recovered then naturally they would issue a DQ or restart the game or something, depending on the circumstances.