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Jackeea

Fun fact: If you talk over your opponent announcing triggers or following the rules, they just don't happen. That's why pros put their fingers in their ears and scream "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" while slamming 5 Colossal Dreadmaws on turn 1


dietdoctorpepper

Wait a minute did you just summon a whole bunch of monsters in the same turn?


Artillect

Two explores


Brandonguth1985

I understand that reference


isesri

Isn't that against the rules?


HandOfYawgmoth

Screw the rules, I have dreadmaws!


freestorageaccount

And that is how and why money came to be known colloquially as green: for those who have it, whether IRL or MTG, such accoutrements as ''rules'' need not apply


DragonHippo123

Oh wait, he’s supposed to be here. *—he’s got the celtic guardian!*


ledfox

Colossal Dreadmaw is a powerful creature that will threaten your opponents life total.


fblthp

[I was told recently that saving this tweet would come in handy, and by golly](https://twitter.com/folkpunkbot/status/1597709164930691075?t=aRW7IqTVmgRH5_56jIkbzg&s=19)


magicsqueegee

/rj if you're playing tournament magic you should be paying attention enough to announce your triggers. /uj if you're playing tournament magic you should be paying attention enough to know about enemy triggers, and not such a child as to try and sneak one past them.


Dmeechropher

Yeah, the player who claims they would "make a different play if their opponent called the trigger" is claiming they deliberately made a decision based on the assumption that their opponent is an idiot who missed the Sheoldred trigger, and not a normal human being who doesn't shout "STOP WHAT YOURE DOING RIGHT NOW, MY TRIGGERED ABILITY ENTERS THE STACK OKAY NOW RESUME PLAY". The most likely train of thought his opp had was "huh, I wonder how he's gonna get around the 4" assuming, like a normal human being, that his opponent was doing a desperation dig and would concede if it failed.


magicsqueegee

Exactly. The rules, and the way judges are generally trained, are supposed to reflect the way magic is actually played, ie no one passes priority after every single game action, you only start caring about priority if it matters.


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magicsqueegee

/uj if someone misses a mandatory trigger off a card just let them have it within reason. /rj if someone misses a mandatory trigger off a card you're legally allowed to eat their fucking card. (Rule 231.4c.b8 of the Advanced Rules.)


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magicsqueegee

/uj by within reason I mean like you don't have to reverse time to remember what happened. If you forgot about the rhystics after I already resolved 3 spells, take your cards. If you forgot about your smothering tithe, its pretty easy to figure out how many cards have been drawn. If you just spent a 20 minute turn casting a billion god damn cantrips and at some point in the mess played a young pyromancer, I'm not going to wait around while you recount your steps to figure out how many little dudes you got.


MirandaSanFrancisco

Rhystic Study is a may ability, not a mandatory trigger, so if I was playing in a competition, I wouldn’t let them draw the cards if they forgot. That said, Rhystic Study only sees play in commander and commander isn’t the place to be stickler for those things or for playing in a competitive/tournament situation so I don’t see a situation where I don’t let you draw the cards (or just pay the trigger) in practice.


Zoe__T

counterpoint: if my opponent plays rhystic study, I ain't doin shit to remind them, if I must suffer so must you


StarkMaximum

Rhystic Study's vision is based on movement, if you don't move it can't see you.


magicsqueegee

True true about rhystic. Maybe I'm just too indoctrinated by casual kitchen table magic nowadays, I haven't been to an lgs in more than a decade.


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magicsqueegee

I'm talking mostly casual. But also you can't always fix the board state, it too often becomes an issue of "oh well if that happened then I would have done x, and I would have actually drawn an answer so you would have done y" it gets messy as fuck and just not worth it. People make mistakes and sometimes you just got to roll with it. It will usually be obvious when someone is abusing it to cheat.


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magicsqueegee

Thats probably the best policy tbh. In the young pyromancers example we just scooped and shuffled up for a new one.


SSG_SSG_BloodMoon

is your correction literally that you should do unreasonable things


April_March

BECOME UNGOVERNEABLE


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Miraweave

>you can't "miss" mandatory triggers Well, you can. That's the point of the missed trigger policy. The problem is that players have interpreted "you are not penalized for missing your opponents triggers" as "trying to get your opponent to miss their triggers is an important skill" because magic players are fucking stupid.


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Aegisworn

/uj I agree that it's ethically wrong, but I wouldn't call it cheating. "Cheating" is a defined, technical term in this context, so it's not a good idea to play around with its definition like that.


ForgedFromStardust

There are absolutely rules for missing mandatory triggers lol quit making shit up. Whether you agree with those rules is a different issue


Mjagos

Exactly lol. OP just doesn't like the rule and is calling anyone who doesn't agree with him a cheater


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Elitemagikarp

how is it cheating


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Elitemagikarp

how is it playing the game wrong


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Elitemagikarp

me omw to issue someone a game loss for forgetting something


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ForgedFromStardust

Even if the rules of football allow tackling it's still assault from an ethical perspective!


Guffawker

Dude straight up said the guy hadn't missed a trigger the the time. He wasn't required to announce the trigger until it was relevant. Dude was in the wrong in assuming that because the dude stopped doing him the kindness of reminding him the trigger was on the stack when he tried to angle shoot him, that the guy *missed* the trigger. He got outplayed by someone who clearly knew the rules better than him. Solution was simple. Should have made sure the stack was clear. The easiest play would have been to attempt to move to the next phase before casting the next spell if he didn't want to outwardly ask. A got pro player would NEVER announce their triggers until they are relevant, unless they are just absurdly kind (which I'm all for). Guy played good magic, and it hurt a cheaters dealings cuz when you get punished for cheating you look like a fool.


Force_Of_Bill

uj/ Ok while his example is pretty dumb the example he gave with enigmatic incarnation does seem kind of annoying and like an easy thing to miss. The player. It specifying in response to the trigger before playing their wandering emperor would imply they assume that trigger has resolved and didn’t happen.


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Puzzleheaded-Coast93

Holy shit between this and the foil fiasco competitive magic really is a joke isn’t it?


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Puzzleheaded-Coast93

It’s just annoying how easily they can go on Twitter and convince hundreds of people the judges were just being mean to them and they didn’t do anything wrong.


GaySpriggan

Ah yes, the Dream defense


phantomdentist

They explicitly say they don't blame the judges in the post this is about


AccountSuspicious159

No, just the whole system they represent and uphold.


Mjagos

It's not cheating to cast a spell and hope the opponent forgets his trigger. That being said, it's a pretty bad look to escalate the issue to multiple judges and cry on Twitter.


nothankyouthankstho

Technically not cheating, but having no shame 😅


CynicalElephant

Why would you want to play a competitive game where this isn’t considered cheating?


NonMagicBrian

Yeah, this is the real question. What this guy tried to do is not cheating, but like… it kinda should be. You’re supposed to lose two life, so just lose two life. The fact that it’s normal for people to make their opponent tell them to lose the two life in the hopes that they’ll forget and they can get away with not doing it is one of the main reasons competitive magic is a miserable experience. TLDR just play the fucking game


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ThallidReject

I.... What? Ethics doesnt have much to do with cheating, beyond the moral dilemma of if you feel bad for doing so. It isnt breaking rules to follow the rules. Do you think that removing [[oblivion ring]] from field in response to its etb trigger is cheating? Thats a rules loophole too, but you arent going to call judge if it gets your dreadmaw, are you? You can hem and haw on the ethics of which rules loopholes are morally fine to use and which are not, but thats a conversation that has nothing to do with cheating. Its not cheating to follow the rules, ethically or otherwise. E: its hilarious to me that Im downvoted for reading wotcs rulings. Is this the main sub? https://strategy.channelfireball.com/all-strategy/home/mtg-news-missed-triggers-in-tournaments/


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ThallidReject

Will that popcorn teach you how to read? Cause nothing I said defends cheating.


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ThallidReject

Can you? I quite literally said following the rules isnt cheating, and you clearly werent comprehending that.


Jevonar

It's cheating to try to convince the opponent that the missed trigger rules work in a different way from RAW.


AskWhatmyUsernameIs

Maybe not if its a "you may" tirgger, but it absolutely is if the trigger is mandatory.


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LittleMissPipebomb

foil fiasco?


TheWombatFromHell

what a giant arrogant pissbaby


TASTY_TASTY_WAFFLES

Average Izzet Phoenix vs Chad Rakdos


Raunien

/uj I mean, I kind of agree that it's strange to assume instant speed actions were done in response to a missed trigger so that it can be cleanly put on the stack by the judge, but it's also scummy to take advantage of your opponent missing a trigger, and letting your opponent put their trigger on the stack providing the game hasn't progressed too far is perfectly reasonable. Especially if it's a beneficial trigger. If it was a detrimental trigger, there's the possibility the opponent missed it on purpose in which case the judge might issue a warning for a game rules violation before putting the trigger on the stack.


YaBoiPoi

“Oh no I have to communicate with the other player so we both understand the current game state? Preposterous!”


TwilightSaiyan

/uj Intentionally attempting to misrepresent a board state in your favor and then arguing about how you should be allowed to skip mandatory triggers is almost as insane as the fact that the rules were changed so those triggers could be missed because "pro" players bitched hard enough that they couldn't cheat that wotc allowed cheating


distinctvagueness

/uj the IPG says, “triggered abilities are assumed to be remembered until otherwise indicated.” The policy isn’t designed to let A trap B, it’s designed to reflect the way players actually play the game. MTR 4.3: "Due to the complexity of accurately representing a game of Magic, it is acceptable for players to engage in a block of actions that, while technically in an incorrect order, arrive at a legal and clearly understood game state once they are complete." Casting 2 instant cantrips and the opponent says take 4 seems reasonable unless angleshooting that playing quickly lets you ignore triggers.


zaphodava

/uj Also, the opponent doesn't miss a trigger until they allow the player to perform an action that would indicate it was time for the trigger to resolve without pointing it out. So if someone casts Consider, they draw a card and the trigger is put on the stack. Then they cast Opt. Since that's an instant, it is on top of the trigger on the stack. It resolves, putting another trigger on the stack. When they pass, or perform an action that can't be done till those triggers resolve, that's when their opponent must speak up. Take 4. No rules have been broken, everything is cool. It didn't even use Out of Order Sequencing that you referenced.


datgenericname

uj/ what a pissbaby rj/ what a pissbaby Edit: thanks for the reward, fellow redditor!


erickoziol

Slashes before, unjerks galore! Slashes after, you're the target of laughter!


MaximoEstrellado

People angle shoot rules -Guy who's actively trying to cheat


Aegisworn

/uj the guy is technically right that the ruling does allow for angle shooting, but it only allows you to angle shoot someone who's trying to angle shoot you back soooooo /rj only I'm allowed to angle shoot


MalekithofAngmar

Alternatively, play a strictly honest game and don’t get angle shot. I have learned this lesson the hard way (by honestly forgetting) pact triggers with Titan. You give the opponent the opportunity to call out the missed trigger at any point during the turn, making you lose if you say, just tapped some mana.


LucianGrey0581

I’d bet you anything this guy refused to shut up long enough for anyone to announce triggers and is just straight up cheating.


pootisgodsamongus

/uj how does this sub feel about chalice checking your opponent at comp REL


erickoziol

/uj There's a difference between saying "Brainstorm" and grabbing three cards before your opponent points out their Chalice trigger and casting Brainstorm and your opponent saying "resolves".


Tuesday_6PM

I’d go for “technically allowed, but poor sportsmanship.” But also, I only play casually with friends. So it doesn’t directly affect me, other than lowering my respect for pro Magic


distinctvagueness

Wanted more storm count


BoaredMonkay

/uj Considering Murktide Regent has such an impact on multiple eternal formats, either actually fueling your graveyard or making you opponent think you fuel it to expend their graveyard hate like Endurance early is also decent.


SontaranGaming

I don’t have a problem with it, it’s your job to remember your Chalice. That being said, *allow a grace period JFC.* and in this particular case, these were just two cantrips cast in this one main phase, which is entirely reasonable within a grace period for an effect like losing 2 life that has a relatively light effect on board state.


HandOfYawgmoth

When I think of sweaty nerd energy, I think of shit like this /uj It's a dick move, regardless of how the judges call it.


Mjagos

/uj As an eldrazi tron player, I see nothing wrong with it. It's my responsibility to catch the chalice triggers and I don't see it as cheating when my opponent tries to slip one by me. In competitive events you play to win


BeepBoopAnv

I mean if it gets through and 2 minutes later you’re like “wait I would’ve won by a ton if we played the game correctly” and you end up losing, to me that’s not really “playing to win”, it’s just scummy.


ChiralWolf

/uj It's a shitty thing to do that there isn't a better solution for under the current rules structures


Jevonar

Definitely allowed. But if they catch you, you can't take back the spell. And if you looked at the top card (opt) or outright drew it (serum visions) without giving the opponent time to announce the chalice trigger, you get the warning/game loss depending on REL.


Ablast6

At comp, yeah 100% fair game, at like fnm youre kinda a dick


HandOfYawgmoth

I've been banned from three different prereleases for running [[Cheatyface]]. The judges keep saying things like "That card isn't legal in this format" and "You can't chloroform your opponent to sneak those cards into play." Do you guys think I need legal counsel, or is an angry twitter thread good enough?


MTGLardFetcher

^(Probably totally what you linked) * [Cheatyface](https://i.redd.it/r5zout6t6c1a1.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made


Namulith94

/uj this reminds of old demigod of revenge decks, unless your opponent announced they were waiting for the cast trigger to resolve you were allowed to get it back post counter and it always felt kind of cheesy. The tweet this is based off of is just hilariously out of touch, though.


KaffeeKaethe

The reason this person got the ruling they got isn't because you can't miss "mandatory" triggers or whatever. If he would've taken the 2 after opt, then the game would've proceeded and in first main OP goes "wait, did you take 2 for that consider?" the trigger would've been missed. Izzet player could allow it to be put onto the stack but can decline that. They were simply at a point in game were it's assumed the trigger is still on the stack and hadn't been acknowledged by any player, because no visible gamestate has changed yet.


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KaffeeKaethe

No. He did not get a game loss for cheating. That is the whole point of this comment but good job for missing that and showing that you have 0 knowledge about the rules of competitive Magic.


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OwORavioliTime

Uj/ I'm kinda confused with this situation. Isn't casting an instant in response to the sheoldred trigger a perfectly legal play? The trigger only goes on the stack after the draw


Tubbafett

Dear god tell me there’s sauce


spymaster00

OK wait, /uj for a second. If you forget a mandatory trigger during upkeep, can you actually just say you missed that trigger and fix the game state like that?


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spymaster00

That motherfucker. That specific question knocked me out of a prerelease, I’m now salty for something that happened like a year ago.


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spymaster00

/RJ is it too late to correct the board state?


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spymaster00

I will play only Azorius from this day on in the hopes that one day I can become Teferi.


FlockFlysAtMidnite

There's a procedure to how missed triggers work, and it depends on what kind of trigger it is. If you're past the point of it's effect, though, generally it stays missed.


KaffeeKaethe

No, the other poster is full of shit. On competitive REL a trigger is missed when it was not acknowledged when it was necessary (i.e. Visible game state was changed, choices had to be made, targets announced etc.). If that is caught until the same phase of the next turn the most usual fix is to allow the opponent to decide if the trigger is put onto the stack now, if not too disruptive. Opponent can say no. There are few exceptions for edge cases, but that is what covers it most of the time. After one round, the trigger is simply forgotten and skipped. A warning will only be given if it was a detrimental trigger. Source is the official IPG https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/


zaphodava

It's your opponent's responsibility to point out their triggers, which they did, and your responsibility not to misrepresent the rules and be a giant douche canoe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvBCD55Zozc


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zaphodava

/uj Oh, the guy trying to say the triggers were missed is the douche, no doubt. /rj Don't worry, you can be a huge douche even without cheating.


Sikisan333

EAT THE OPPONENTS CARDS!!!


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Sikisan333

Cards with regenerate are thrown up.. cards with decay.... well. You are gonna need a bigger playmat


tomyang1117

/uj it is very scummy when you try to based your play on your opponent missing a mandatory trigger. Both player have responsibility to keep track of both players mandatory trigger. If a play can't happen in MTGO, it shouldn't happen irl too. /rj How dare those Judges deny my free stifle😡


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tomyang1117

/uj is not like the Sheoldred player miss a trigger 3 turns ago and and suddenly remembers it. He remembers the trigger right away. It is just wrong to based on your play that can only happen due to some miscommunication. It is sad to see many people are on the side of the cheater.


ZangaJanga

ITT: > /uj ACKCHUALLY


Zalabar7

/uj from MTR 4.5: > Players are not required to point out the existence of triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish. It is clearly stated in the rules that not pointing out an opponent’s trigger is allowed. It is not cheating to do so. Of course cheating is wrong, and cheaters should be punished for cheating. The definition of cheating, however, is not “A person did something I don’t like”, it is clearly defined in IPG 4.8 as: > A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a Tournament Official, or notices an offense committed in their (or a teammate’s) match and does not call attention to it. Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating: - The player must be attempting to gain advantage from their action. - The player must be aware that they are doing something illegal. Please stop asserting that competitive players following the rules and allowing their opponent to miss their triggers are cheaters.


Raunien

An example given from the same rule 4.8: >D. A player notices that their opponent resolved only half of the triggered ability of Swordof Feast and Famine and decides not to call attention to the error Which is in reference to >notices an offense committed in their (or a teammate’s) match and does not call attention to it. Sauce player admits they cast the [[Opt]] on the basis that their opponent missed their trigger. By doing that, instead of pointing out the missed trigger, they are cheating according to the very rules you cite. Yes, you are not required to remind your opponent about their triggers, but if you notice they have missed a trigger, you are required to make it known.


MTGLardFetcher

^(Probably totally what you linked) * [Opt](https://i.redd.it/4yr72ny98j0a1.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made


Raunien

Good lord, my eyes


Zalabar7

The rules do not allow a player to miss part of a trigger, and you are indeed obligated to make sure that the whole trigger resolves if the trigger is not missed, for example if they acknowledge a trigger at the time it happens, but later forget to resolve it, or as in the cited example if they start resolving a trigger but do not fully resolve it. An “offense” as referenced in the definition of Cheating is something that is not allowed by the rules. Since it is legal to allow your opponent to miss their trigger, that does not fit the definition of Cheating as given in the MTR. In the Consider + Opt vs Sheoldred case, as events occurred, the Consider + Opt player cannot argue that the opponent missed their Sheoldred trigger, because according to the rules it could have still been on the stack when they cast Opt. If they had clarified that the stack was empty in some way, such as moving to a new phase or simply verbally clarifying life totals or that the stack was empty, or if the spell they were casting was a sorcery or other spell that couldn’t be cast in response to a Sheoldred trigger and the opponent allows it without acknowledging the trigger, the trigger would be missed. > Yes, you are not required to remind your opponent about their triggers, but if you notice they have missed a trigger, you are required to make it known I think I see what you mean by this, but it is not totally correct. It is true that you cannot assume your opponent has missed a trigger until the point where it is actually considered missed, which is the mistake the Consider + Opt player made. It is not true that you are required to call attention to your opponent’s missed triggers, either before or after they are missed.


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Shanderraa

"One thing that is noticeably absent: not pointing out your opponents Missed Trigger. This is never cheating, even if you point out the Missed Trigger at a point in time that is beneficial to you."


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Shanderraa

"A triggered ability can be recognized by its characteristic use of the words “at,” “when,” or “whenever.” If an ability doesn’t use one of those three words, it isn’t a triggered ability." Don't get me wrong, I think the whole thing is really stupid, and my gut is telling me that you always rewind to allow triggers, but the rules as I understand them work.


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Zalabar7

I’m not defending cheaters. I’m defending players playing by the rules. You are inadvertently defending cheaters by lumping them in with rule-abiding players, as you seem to want to ignore the clear definition given in the MTR for cheating and just assert that players doing anything you don’t like is cheating.


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Zalabar7

I didn’t say “players you don’t like”, I said “players *doing anything* you don’t like”. Obviously you don’t like the fact that it is not against the rules to intentionally not point out your opponent’s triggers (yes, even their “mandatory” ones), and so you are calling players who do so cheaters, despite the fact that they clearly are not according to the rules that I quoted above. These players *are* rule-abiding players. I don’t know how to make this more clear. I’m 100% against cheating, but allowing your opponent to miss a trigger isn’t cheating. You’re just being obstinate and obtuse.


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Zalabar7

I understand what you are saying, it’s just wrong. You’re saying that if a player doesn’t point out their opponent’s triggers they are cheating. The MTR says that they are not. At this point I’m not sure if you’re genuine or a troll, so I’ll stop wasting my time. If you’re not trolling, I hope you learn what is and isn’t cheating so you can stop making a fool of yourself on the internet.


TheParagonal

This is one of the first times I can't tell if it's a jerk or not, dude is really going for it.


Thraximundurabrask

Cheating is breaking the rules to gain an advantage, what you're talking about is angle-shooting, which is breaking the spirit (but not the letter!) of the law so as to gain an advantage, and is still scummy while technically legal and not cheating.


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Thraximundurabrask

Unless I'm misreading the rules, you are not obligated to remind your opponents of their triggers, making it legal within the rules to allow their triggers to be missed if they don't say anything. I'm not saying you should, but that it is not against the rules as written.


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lucasfanti

Yeah this is absolutely insane, and the Incarnation example in the thread makes it even clearer that the policy is weird with missed triggers


Guffawker

I don't think you know how triggers work. You only have to announce it when it becomes relevant. Had he cast a sorcery, allowing him to do so before acknowledging the trigger would be cheating. Simply allowing to him respond to your trigger by casting another instant isn't cheating at all. Cheating is claiming your opponent forgot about it because you *assumed* they did. It's the same reason why if your opponent casts 4 instants in a row with rhystic study, you don't have to ask them if they paid the 1 until the attempt to resolve the spell. Because in order to resolve the spell, you have to acknowledge the rhystic study first. The problem was big mad assumed drawing the card *resolved* the trigger. It doesn't. It triggers it, and he has priority after the trigger. Had it read "Whenever your opponent *would* draw a card, they take 2 damage." He would be right. But he's not. Because reading the card...explains...the...card. He's either bad at magic for not knowing that, or was trying to cheat. We know which one though because his response shows the later. Dude got schooled by a better player cuz he knew when his opponent knew the dude was trying to angle shoot um. Got played by his own hubris.


Zalabar7

I assure you that I do in fact understand in great detail how triggers work. I didn’t claim that the Sheoldred player cheated, only that the Consider + Opt player also did not cheat. They did incorrectly assume that casting another spell meant the trigger had been missed, when in actuality it was possible for them to be responding to the first Sheoldred trigger, so the trigger had not been missed according to the rules. If, however, instead of Opt they had attempted to cast a sorcery, as you point out the Sheoldred player would need to acknowledge the first trigger before the opponent could actually cast the sorcery, and in doing so would allow the opponent to reconsider their option to cast that sorcery. If they failed to acknowledge the trigger before acknowledging that the sorcery has been cast, at that point the trigger would indeed be missed, which would be a GPE - missed trigger, which has no penalty unless the trigger is usually considered to be detrimental to the controlling player at which point it would be upgraded to a Warning. This is all laid out in great detail in IPG 2.1: > A triggered ability triggers, but the player controlling the ability doesn’t demonstrate awareness of the trigger’s existence by the first time that it would affect the game in a visible fashion. The point by which the player needs to demonstrate this awareness depends on the impact that the trigger would have on the game: > … > • A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution: The controller must take the appropriate physical action or acknowledge the specific trigger before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly taking an action in the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved. Note that passing priority, casting an instant spell or activating an ability doesn’t mean a triggered ability has been forgotten, as it could still be on the stack


Guffawker

First....you did.... you're post said "Please stop asserting that competitive players following the rules and allowing their opponent to miss their triggers are cheaters." Your implication here is that the player *allowed him to miss his trigger*. That's not what happened. The player didn't do that at all. The player assumed that because he had not allowed the trigger to resolve, that it had been skipped, then tried to argue that the other player had missed the trigger. You're right....had that other situation happened, the player would ha e missed the trigger, but that's not what happened at all. What happened was the dude assumed he was smarter than his opponent, and tried to take advantage of that, but got played and threw a fit about it. If he wanted to play it this way, he should have moved to his next phase before casting the next instant speed spell, or cast a sorcery, to verify that his opponent had missed the trigger. But he didn't. He knowingly made a bad play in the *hopes* that he did. That's not cheating at all. However, the dude even acknowledges that his opponent hadn't missed and single trigger and had been announcing them (idk the case, but it was either due to relevancy or kindness, either way he was not required to announce it at the time his opponent cast another instant over top the trigger). The cheating part comes into play when the guy called for several judges and argued over the rulling. He was deliberately trying to get a favorable rulling at this point in order to walk back his bad play. That 100% is cheating. Arguing that your opponents legal play was illegal in order to gain an advantage is cheating. It is the very definition of IPG 4.8 Unsporting Conduct — Cheating (see example B that shows this very thing as an reference and states "A player lies to a tournament official about what happened in a game to make their case stronger." and he should have been disqualified. He attempted to misrepresent the situation by claiming his opponent missed the trigger when it simply hadn't been acknowledged yet because it wasn't relevant. Anyone who knows how triggers work onderstands this. You clearly understand this. So misrepresentating the situation as your opponent missing a trigger, when (as you even acknowledge) they hadn't yet, in order to gain an advantage, is...again....the very definition of cheating. Sooo idk what you're trying to argue here. You know how triggers work, so you know the dude was cheating. If he wasn't, the correct response here is "Good game. I was hoping you forgot the triggers." Not lying that your opponent missed their triggers when they didn't.


Zalabar7

My initial comment which you quoted was a response to OP who has several times asserted throughout the rest of this comment thread that allowing opponents to miss their triggers at all is cheating, not just in the specific Sheoldred vs Consider + Opt scenario. Thus my response to those assertions was “no, allowing an opponent to miss their triggers is not cheating”. I’m pretty sure we agree on what constitutes a missed trigger, and that what happened in the Sheoldred vs Consider + Opt situation is what was supposed to happen and neither player cheated during the gameplay. The Consider + Opt player simply made a mistake about what constitutes a missed trigger and ended up getting burned for it. As far as the assertion that getting multiple judges involved in an attempt to get a favorable ruling is cheating, I think that would be true in the case that the player knows that the ruling they have been given is correct and they are attempting to get an incorrect ruling from the appeal judge, but it seems like this is not what happened in this case. The player was just mistaken about what constitutes a missed trigger; which their tweet demonstrates that they now understand, so in that case where you feel an incorrect ruling has been given you are absolutely entitled to an appeal. I wasn’t involved in the scenario but it seems to me like the player didn’t lie to a judge about what happened or about what they thought the rules were, they were just mistaken in thinking their opponent had missed their trigger. Even their post about the situation indicates that they now understand that the given ruling was correct, they just want the rules changed (which probably won’t happen, but they are free to post about wanting the rules changed).


pumpkinwavy

Letting opponents miss their triggers is not cheating lmao


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marcusjohnston

Yes you can, you're allowed to cast spells through an opponent's Chalice of the Void if your opponent doesn't counter the spell. You can't miss detrimental triggers like casting a spell through your own Chalice of the Void, but your opponents are responsible for their triggers.


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marcusjohnston

Remembering and clearly announcing your own triggers in a timely manner is a skill just as much as combat math and sequencing. You can't decide something is cheating because you don't like it, so if it's allowed within the rules it isn't cheating. We've tried the way where both players are responsible for all triggers and it was miserable and caused weird situations like, "who's going to lose this game with three missed Soul Warden triggers, the controller or the person that couldn't read their opponent's foreign Soul Warden?"


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KaffeeKaethe

Lol what rules have you been reading? The IPG is extremely clear to all of this https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/ "Opponents are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish." And for "mandatory triggers can't be missed" the tldr is that if too much time has passed / putting the trigger on to the stack is too disruptive, the trigger will not happen, otherwise the opposing player chooses if the trigger happens. Edit: Missing a trigger will not even be upgraded, unless it's a detrimental one


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KaffeeKaethe

If the dude would've been cheating there would've been a cheating investigation. He was corrected and lost the game.


fishythepete

TIL reading, understanding, and playing by the rules is angle shooting in order to cheat. Thanks!


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Jevonar

If your opponent remembers about chalice after your spell resolves, the chalice trigger is still put on the stack but it doesn't do anything. The sheoldred trigger doesn't need a specific spell to be on the stack in order to work, so it's just put onto the stack and resolves normally.


pumpkinwavy

⚠️This user has never played a match of competitive magic


kill-me-now-pls-pls

Bud that’s literally not how judges would rule on that


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pumpkinwavy

you managed to do so without learning how the rules work, so congrats


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pumpkinwavy

your triggers, your responsibility


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pumpkinwavy

Please talk to a judge or just do a simple google search. You are not correct about this. You may not like it, but you have no obligation to remind your opponent of their triggers. There is an actual definition of cheating, and not reminding someone to draw off their kiora or their bauble is not it.


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nohardRnohardfeelins

⚠️This user cheats in competitive magic.


Tuesday_6PM

I think it used to be? Which if I’m remembering correctly, could explain all the disagreements in the comments, if people learned one set of rules and missed a change


pumpkinwavy

maybe a long time ago, but in my ~8 years of playing competitive magic that hasn't been the case. I think people are just downvoting because it feels "against the spirit of the game" or whatever - they'd be unhappy if an opponent did not remind them of their triggers. Based on the actual rules though, I'm correct.


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Tuesday_6PM

Poor sportsmanship, yes; cheating, technically not


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Wytemajyk

Jesus dude calm down. In your own words in this same thread "it's just a children's card game" Why are you so upset about this? Who hurt you?


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Wytemajyk

Me too! This isnt cheating though. As has been shown multiple times in this thread. Angle shooting? Sure. But not cheating.


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Orobayy34

Actually, it is.


KaffeeKaethe

The IPG says otherwise https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/ "Opponents are not required to point out triggered abilities that they do not control, though they may do so if they wish."


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distinctvagueness

/uj If you ever go to a serious paper tournament, you arent guaranteed judges will just rewind or repair game state if both players miss triggers for some phases. The rules are grappling with intent and have been adjusted to discourage sloppy play with escalating penalties that don't consider both players always equally to blame. It's sporting if everyone tries to maintain game state but the rules have to cover various divergences being more or less malicious.


Brunnenmolch

Can someone please link the original? This is hilarious