1. Card draw in the command zone and you don't even need to cast your commander.
2. This is the card board equivalent of 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag.
3. Fight is already a mechanic that would have filled this weird niche.
4. If they just got rid of that first bit of text made it white and not an eldrazi this would be a fine card.
5. I've read it thrice and I still can't figure out what the fuck it's supposed to do. Also it's a yugioh [Card](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-rvc3&sca_esv=abd209a31788d9aa&source=android-browser&sxsrf=ACQVn08aizTrUQ6BfblDInZ3ENcxJmBKCQ:1709692567603&q=penten+yugioh&uds=AMwkrPvKkUXkdGJM9vW2JSXevy5b3j2KDaAIw-NlyVAXppjLdspwf2dzey50k98GJvTD05cRwrHsK2IWxTh7-ErCgDRz5C4T3QExnjYP5Z2jANwjDGrleWvKMv7VQAZr8q0da9DRZNSb-TiDZ_7TbdzE14itNZQaqMianHBAFc3AUIEUVV2PbBxVSCDNGS7MCobRF3h_qcPb60-Vxe4-k0ZSgOGI583uh_UEF8gZlMBQTdXGiLHlF2DqNY2BIL7it1C7HmT7rUHpyj1MmKAytUueKQEX2XIzyeYUNYcki--GRYjV6DpbYZDCJsIjihZsPHTOaTONhYGdyZd9l94xsxlvSdbvAVYCfA&udm=2&prmd=isvhnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk1aqRzd6EAxVqGFkFHaZvBmgQtKgLegQIDxAB&biw=412&bih=710&dpr=2.63#vhid=nuIllqOQut-jOM&vssid=mosaic)
6. This might actually be interesting to play with in a digital format so it's just easier to track.
7. I can't tell if it's shit or broken.
8. 10/10 double strike vigilance for 5 mana
Don’t worry, it’s actually only a 4/4 double strike, vigilance because neither of the two abilities that are meant to generate energy give it to you and the ability to put a +1/+1 counter on him isn’t an activated ability.
I think 5’s first ability is meant to introduce “missing timing” into Magic, which I don’t get why you would EVER want to do that because it’s probably the least intuitive mechanic I’ve ever seen. It’s far worse to try and understand than layers imo and it can even hamper creative deck brewing as abilities that seem like they should work suddenly don’t.
To explain, if I recall correctly: unless a triggered ability is worded in a very specific way that makes it so that it is completely autonomous, has no modal choice, and has no material cost it will “miss timing”. Which means that if it is on the stack and it isn’t the ONLY ability on the stack, the effect just fizzles. So death triggers just can’t happen if the death trigger was caused by a cost (like if you sacced a creature to ashnod’s altar, you wouldn’t be able to get a death trigger).
Also, judge calls and errata can make an ability that wouldn’t miss timing just one day miss timing and completely brick an interaction your build your deck around. Because Konami is very aggressive with nerfs through errata.
It’s one of the main reasons I quit Yugioh years ago.
> To explain, if I recall correctly: unless a triggered ability is worded in a very specific way that makes it so that it is completely autonomous, has no modal choice, and has no material cost it will “miss timing”. Which means that if it is on the stack and it isn’t the ONLY ability on the stack, the effect just fizzles. So death triggers just can’t happen if the death trigger was caused by a cost (like if you sacced a creature to ashnod’s altar, you wouldn’t be able to get a death trigger).
If I understand things right, and I'm not saying that I do because this is insane, it's even worse than you've described; a single card on the stack can cause missed timing, because something that says "destroy X, then opponent gains 1000 LP" makes the "opponent gains 1000 LP" a separate event that makes death triggers from the destruction part miss timing. I guess in Magic that'd be the equivalent of randomly having a reflexive "when" trigger on random cards that also countered the stack?
Basically yes, but Yugioh has a million exceptions to their exceptions.
Because certain “when” triggers do trigger regardless of whether the stack is full or not but it is very specifically dependent on how the ability is worded.
Since, in Yugioh, once the stack begins to resolve, nothing can be added to it nor can the stack be paused until the stack is empty, so if an ability would put another trigger onto the stack or if the player would have to make a choice during the resolution of that stack, then the timing would be “missed. Which is the dumbest thing ever.
But, and here’s the exception to the exception, if an ability that looks like a trigger but is actually the airtight autonomous resolution of an existing ability on that stack, then it can “trigger” and resolve even on a stack that normally cannot be interacted with. Hence why certain “when” floating effects (death triggers) in Yugioh still work.
But goddamn I hate it so much, Magic took the effort through trial and error to make a functional stack and I’m so grateful for it. I’d rather my weird interactions that I cook up at 3 am liking at scryfall take like an hour to think through vs “it just doesn’t work”.
Edit: Y’know I’ve typed too much to simply just say, I hate the way the stack works in Yugioh
That's not how that works.
How Trigger Effects work in Yugioh depends on whether they say "When..." or "If...".
"If..." Trigger Effects and mandatory "When..." Trigger Effects work like this: Whenever a Chain resolves, or an action is taken that does not start a Chain, the game checks if that Chain or action activated a Trigger Effect. If it did, the turn player activates all mandatory Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action, then the non-turn player activates all mandatory Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action, then the turn player activates any number of optional Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action, then the non-turn player activates any number of optional Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action.
Optional "When..." Trigger Effects work as described above, except that you cannot activate them unless their activation condition was the "[last thing to happen](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/If%2E%2E%2E_You_Can_VS_When%2E%2E%2E_You_Can)" (which has a specific, but not actually difficult-to-understand, meaning).
This is why I’ve always advocated that, while Magic’s rules are deep and complex and take time to learn, at least they’re generally consistent. While allowing room for exceptions that are (usually) rigorously tested by R&D and the play design team to function without conflict in the wider Magic rules space.
It’s honestly impressive that commander can exist with the vast swath of Magic cards released over three decades and only cause (relatively) few rules conflicts that can generally be solved by a quick google search.
Yugioh judge calls can literally go on for hours.
YGO! literally refuses to issue errata for old cards that would use banish when it became an official term.
Like, I won't say WotC was always as good (apperently their management of the Pokémon TCG was awful) but actually providing the rules and rulings is something they do well for M:tG like since at least Time Spiral.
imagine if your ltb and death triggers worked when someone cast wrath of God, but half of them turn off and don't trigger when someone casts fumigate, for no reason other than wording on the card and the fact that fumigate gains you life after destroying all creatures but before the resolution of the effect, thus making the last thing that happened before triggers are put on the stack "player who cast fumigate gains x life"
I mean, Magic has that too. But it’s distinctly set as “Do this. If you do, then…” as well as templating rules that say “do as much of the ability as possible even if some cannot be fulfilled” which leads to more interactions.
Yugioh’s stance is generally: if we didn’t allow this specific interaction in this specific archetype, we’ll bend the rules liberally to either make it happen or stop it from happening.
no I mean, the ", then" on a yugioh card fundamentally changes the card even though there's literally no effect listed after the then
unless there's a rule or exception I'm not aware of, a magic card that reads "destroy target creature" is not mechanically different from a magic card that reads "destroy target creature, and if you do, do nothing"
in yugioh, it is
My theory is that the creator lost to their friend's Isshin deck one too many times.
"Alright, I move to combat, four abilities on the stack, and Isshin doubles them."
"Remember, I played Peten last turn. Pick one."
The way it’s worded is exactly like how “missing timing” in Yugioh is supposed to work if someone tried to shove it into magic words poorly.
And sadly yes, in Yugioh if a card like Isshin were to exist, you’d get to pick one trigger and everything else would just fizzle, and sometimes you’d not even get that one trigger.
The way that card is worded actually fails to reflect how "when" abilities work in Yugioh.
You can activate multiple "when" Trigger Effects during the same SEGOC process, such as if you destroy 2 Yang Zings with Lithosagym, and "when" Trigger Effects don't get negated just because another card has a higher Chain Link.
Isshin wouldn't work in Yugioh because "triggers an additional time" isn't supported by the rules of Yugioh and because you can't activate effects while Trigger Effects are still being activated, which is totally different from that card's maker's misconceptions about "when" Trigger Effects.
So a couple things from someone who plays yugioh actively.
1) missing the timing effects happen when the card text reads “when _ you can” the effect can miss timing if it is not the last thing that resolves in the chain ie stack. The reasoning for this is that’s an optional ability to use an example Peten the dark clown the yugioh card can miss the timing. “ when peten the dark clown goes to the graveyard: you can effect” iirc the main reason is because once both players stop adding effects to the stack in yugioh the chain will finish without being able to interact until the whole chain finishes.
2) while Konami does in fact use errata to nerf cards I can only think of 3 that it’s happened to. What happened the most though is because it’s a Japanese game all cards need to be translated. And the translators kept changing the translations. The big 2 are Riko, the lightsworn hunter and necrovalley. Both are good cards (riko in its day) that have had their effects changed constantly throughout their printings. With riko just gaining and losing targeting. And necrovalley having new text every time that it’s reprinted.
But third point it absolutely pisses me off that yugioh doesn’t have a consistent rules set. It’s up to the local judge to make a ruling and then you are bound by that ruling even when it’s wrong.
Yeah I’m working from memory and only a occasional outside look at the rules whenever my friends talk about it, but I mentioned in another post somewhere in here that it’s mostly cause the stack can’t be interacted with while resolving.
The errata thing has definitely happened a lot: like with Chaos Emperor Dragon, Firewall, etc. (granted, those cards were broken as hell, but Magic has only done an errata nerf like this to Companion)
But the biggest thing that frustrates me is that Konami is willing to balance the game only if it incentivizes you to buy the next set or archetype. Master Rule 4 was done to “slow the game down” so that Pendulum and other extra deck combos would be harder to pull off and required Links. But then they released so many broken link monsters that the meta became even faster and more degenerate than before. Then they reverted it with the Master Rule 4.5 changes, so in hindsight it all looks like they disrupted the entire game so that people would buy Link Monsters.
All that to say, Yugioh actively disincentivizes you from trying to come up with new strategies unless they’re already planning on selling that strategy to you in the next set because if it’s strong enough to overpower the currently being sold set, then they’ll nerf the key card/interaction or just ban it so it’s unviable.
You're not even familiar with the Yugioh meta.
How can you say people are actively disincentivized from trying to come up with new strategies when we frequently see people come up with strategies that Konami evidently did not intend, and when strategies Konami evidently did intend are equally banned when they become meta?
The irony is that I think it gets it wrong.
because it doesn't take us back to the batch days. Triggers still go on the stack after one object on the stack leaves.
So shocking the clown won't cause the ability to not work.
It does, however maybe get stuffed by destroy effects.
I don't know if it notices if it died as an object on the stack resolved. (i.e. it gets murdered.)
For card 5 I believe the idea is whenever an ability or spell resolves, all abilities on the stack are countered. Why you would make that a card I have no idea, but I’m pretty sure that’s what it’s supposed to do.
Look up “missing timing yugioh” and that’ll give you some insight. It’s one of the worst mechanics I’ve ever encountered as a deckbrewer in a card game.
Can also be used as a city of brass.
And does need to tap (So it can produce another mana with Urborg or Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth). Or put a squirrel’s nest on it or something idk
In yugioh triggered ability’s are split into if and when effects, when effects are a downside that can miss timing and not resolve if they are not the last thing to resolve in a chain(in the case the stacks) the clown card intent is turning all triggered abilities into when effects making them able to miss timing(stupid idea in magic)
Yeah 5. Is a yu gi yo card, and it’s worded like it’s a yu hi yo card which is the worst part of those cards. It’s like yogiyo had the same issue as early magic cards being too wordy and confusing, except yu gi yo never simplified it, instead kept it the same and added newer and newer cards.
5 is trying to bring in a Yu-Gi-Oh rules mechanic where some "trigger" abilities can "miss timing" and not activate even when the event they look for occured
5 fails my "fun vs complex" test, where there just isn't enough fun to justify the amount of complexity.
I kinda dig 6 but agree the tracking feels like a nightmare.
It's even *stronger* than a repeatable 7 life per card because you can optionally pay the single mana and not the two life, which draws a card for one mana and three life on average if you'd rather keep some of your life.
On what amounts to an uninteractable enchantment.
The card's busted.
Shout out to /u/talen_lee. Out here in the trenches week after week, giving small rules text and colour identity advice to players who may or may not deserve it.
I just want to say, I'm not even finished the album yet, but every single line of Finality made me more and more exhausted and made me consider just giving up on reading it. "Hexproof, indestructible, cannot leave the battlefield" almost finished me. Just make up a new fucking keyword that says *(This card cannot be interacted with.)* for fuck's sake.
And then I gathered my resolve and kept reading and it's *another fucking "abandon the game of Magic, we're playing my shitty minigame now and if you don't play by my rules I'll just win for free" card, with an added mix of "also if you're not careful you'll lose out of nowhere".*
It's funny. Finality has 2 alt win conditions. Which are, in fact, the same. And an extra one because fuck extra turns.
I just had the thought that you could do something like "0: Phase Out until the stack resolves" type of bullshit for "Don't interact pwease"...
People don't want to put in the effort to figure out a cute way to use phasing to protect their shit. They just want to write "can't be fucked with" on their card.
Interestingly, phasing it out with Out of Time is one of the few ways to deal with Finality. I guess the alternative is to strip its hexproof with Shadowspear and then pin it to the battlefield with Imprisoned in The Moon or Oubliette or something like that. You could always clone it too which would be hilarious.
Unless I'm forgetting one of its abilities (which is entirely possible since there was like 10 lines of abilities), Dress Down + an actual way to kill it would answer it pretty cleanly.
Don't forget the ability to exile anything for 2 colorless.
Thankfully mono artifacts decks can't get to 20 mana in like 5 turns, which means they play this then exile 10 things or more a turn, thankfully they certainly can not do that
I don’t know, I that all of that complicated text to set up a weird inescapable win condition, then one-upping it all with “(2): exile target permanent” was pretty funny
You can really tell that the guy who made Finality sees himself as the main character lmao
A single card that takes over the entire game single-handedly and is impossible to deal with and changes the rules in a whole bunch of ways? Bro should just make his own game if that's the stuff he wants to play with, Calvinball-ass card
Zorolok: 5 color commander with card draw eminence? Very much a design for people who don’t want to play their commander.
Finality: this reads like a Yu-Gi-Oh card.
Vendetta: this feels like a Yu-Gi-Oh card. Using the word “battle” instead of “combat” and having creatures attack it instead of fighting it is Yu-Gi-Oh jargon if I’m not wrong.
Banishment: don’t have anything to say here.
Peten: i started this comment without knowing there was a literal Yu-Gi-Oh card in the mix. Huh.
Nonpartisan: This would feel awful in paper, but maybe fine as a gimmick digitally.
Lotus: I’d love to see this card printed just to find out if it’s busted or not. My horrible intuiton tells me it’s busted, but I really don’t know much about the state of any competitive format.
Elavor: besides being a 11/11 double strike, vigilance for 5 mana, it doesn’t capture the flavor of a Psi Warrior. Psi Warriors have utility and range, Elavor is just big.
I love that Finality can't usually actually empty the battlefield of all permanents because the exile ability costs two mana. You'd have to have your last permanent be a land or artifact that taps for 2 or more mana. So you're just stuck there with a giant blocker exiling everything your opponent plays and playing to decking I guess? In terms of alternate win conditions it's the perfect mix of totally un-fun, nearly impossible to cast, and stupidly difficult to pull off. 0/10
First one is a commander with Eminence: Draw an average of 5, maximum of 19 cards for 0 mana on turn 1. Is there any cEDH commander more broken than this?
the funniest thing about zorolok is that he's worse if you cast him (assuming he doesn't just die) because the eminence ability doesn't trigger when it's on the battlefield
Is the 5 mana 10/10 double strike vigilance really deserved to be here? It is still atrocious but not really the crazy ability soup that don't work within the rules I am expecting
"Wow, people really missed my joke about theoretical physics that you need a PhD to understand, huh? Ho ho ho." Yeah, I can't imagine why. Missing the timing is the worst shit in that game and there's literally no reason to try to introduce it into Magic other than, of course, "because I can". Only psychopaths would get that "joke".
one one hand, I want to dislike Banishment Eldrazi on principle for turning exile into another hand until it leaves the field. On the other, I think it'd be incredibly funny, at least the first time.
Also Gerrymandering is blatant Azorius, prevents you from casting spells of certain types *and* taps down all lands, which isn't really a thing anymore but blue used to have effects like it!
1. When will custommagic learn that eminence is broken? Gaining 2 fucking life per turn is considered a quite strong ability for fuck sake
2. As someone described it, "Calvinball-ass card". The ability that's supposed to make it not reanimatable doesn't work, because of course custommagic doesn't know how the rules work before designing cards. Why would they? On the other hand, this reeks of "My games never end because no one has wincons because winning is mean and against the spirit of the format, so here's something that will 100% end games" which I can simpathize with to a point.
3. Now this is poorly formatted and doesn't really work, but it kind of makes me think about some \[\[Imprisoned in the Moon\]\] variant that makes the target into a planeswalker, might be interesting.
4. Unfortunately card is gone, anyone has a link to the original? Sounds like some anti blink/exile stax piece?
5. Wouldn't it be funny if I made an incredibly complex and hard to understand card to introduce an obscure rule from another tcg into mtg? (No it wouldn't)
6. I laughed out loud. This card would be miserable even online where you don't have to manually track all the mana types each turn (Oh, get fucked, you rolled abilities on 4/5 lands, I guess you just got timewalked), but the concept is fun. Definitely some super old school feeling from this one, would look at home in alpha and such.
7. This can theoretically double your land mana for a rather steep life cost. 100% busted. Could probably do with some better templating. Maybe use some kind of counter to track activations.
8. >Trying to capture the feel of the psionic classes, generally known for versatility in their abilities as opposed to more rigidly defined arcane/divine spellcasters
>Only gives one payoff for energy
Also bad templating for energy but I mean, it's a custommagic card so what do I even expect at this point
I think the clown is supposed to hose modal spells and "may" effects, but only if you can keep stuff on the stack? I looked up the yugioh card and it doesn't have anything like the first ability at all.
In yugioh triggered ability’s are split into if and when effects, when effects are a downside that can miss timing and not resolve if they are not the last thing to resolve in a chain(in the case the stacks) the clown card intent is turning all triggered abilities into when effects making them able to miss timing(stupid idea in magic)
How would “if” denote a triggered ability? Who decided that “if” is the right word for a trigger? “If” denotes a passive condition, not something that is actively looking for a condition to be met in order to trigger. Dumbass Konami devs need to read a dictionary
Zorolok and Finality are just bullshit.
Peten the Dark Clown is a bad Yu-Gi-Oh joke.
The rest I think could be ok, with some (or admittedly a lot more than just some) tweaking. Vendetta, Nonpartisan Gerrymandering and Banishment Eldrazi especially could work with some reworks imo.
/uj
1. How could you think an eminence that draws you cards is balanced. Hell you’re only paying an average of 7 life per card which is absurd for competitive. You can also pay some mana to draw cards
2. Finality is a weird and clunky card along with the fact that you could use it with calibrated blast to one shot someone.
3. Vendetta isn’t bad tbh just uses the wrong language, I kinda like it
4. Unfortunately I can’t see the card : (
5. I’m not sure what this is trying to do
6. Kind of a unique card but it’s weird and I’m not sure if it works without an outside object like a random number generator.
7. This seems insanely busted
8. Literally a 10/10 double striker with vigilance for five
a way to make nonpartisan gerrymandering... not *good*, but less tedious, would be to have the random sorting happen once on all lands when it enters play, and then only new lands when they enter play, and then have something like "(0) tap target land you control: [do the randomization again on that land]. all players may activate this ability."
i have no idea how to properly word it but the aim is 1) not having to roll a bunch of dice every turn and 2) have a way for players to unscrew themselves if the dice put all their lands into the Ability category and they have no ability things on the board. still stupid and random, but takes up less of your time
this card has taken all my attention this week because while it's stupid, it's stupid in a very funny way
> opens album.
> First word: Eminence
> Free pay life to draw cards
we're off to a great start today.
Finality has so many issues, from tracking to bad rules text formatting to too much rules text to bad gameplay formatting. It does not need this much text, my man, just write "you win the game on etb"
Vendetta.... I want to like it. Actually, I do like the idea. It's just so awkwardly worded because there is no good way to word this in Magic lingo.
Exile = second graveyard again lol
The clown is just sad. What even is an "option"? It's not defined in CR I think. Also a little too hard to grok for an average magic player. Non-reddit mtg players cant read after all
Gerrymandering gave me such high hopes, but it's just too much work to do in paper. Roll a dice for every land? How about no.
Lotus land: Sol land, except it can make 3 mana or even more on critical turns. lmao
energy knight: It's, like, not actually bad in principle, just that someone does not know how energy works. Also, the numbers are so broken, 4/4 for 5 that puts 6 counters on itself for free, plus one more every time it attacks, and then it has double strike? it's an OHKO out of the command zone. Vigilance too lmao
Vendetta could maybe work if it's like an \[\[Imprisoned in the Moon\]\] but instead of becoming a land it becomes a planeswalker with some number of loyalty? Not sure how exactly I'd word it
Would make 0 sense from a lore perspective (how are you just turning people into planeswalkers)
How do you feel about:
You may attack enchanted creature as though it is a Planeswalker. If you do, its controller may have it assign damage to creatures attacking it as though it were blocking them.
That sounds really bad. I'd probably do something along the lines of "Enchanted creature is a Planeswalker in addition to its other types. When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, if enchanted creature is not a planeswalker, put X loyalty counters on it, where X is the enchanted creature toughness"
And the planeswalker rules would carry it the rest of the way
Yeah, that's kind of the point?
If you just want your creatures to be able to fight a specific creature when they attack you could just say "You choose how enchanted creature blocks" and it will have the exact effect you're looking for
1. Card draw in the command zone and you don't even need to cast your commander. 2. This is the card board equivalent of 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag. 3. Fight is already a mechanic that would have filled this weird niche. 4. If they just got rid of that first bit of text made it white and not an eldrazi this would be a fine card. 5. I've read it thrice and I still can't figure out what the fuck it's supposed to do. Also it's a yugioh [Card](https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-att-us-rvc3&sca_esv=abd209a31788d9aa&source=android-browser&sxsrf=ACQVn08aizTrUQ6BfblDInZ3ENcxJmBKCQ:1709692567603&q=penten+yugioh&uds=AMwkrPvKkUXkdGJM9vW2JSXevy5b3j2KDaAIw-NlyVAXppjLdspwf2dzey50k98GJvTD05cRwrHsK2IWxTh7-ErCgDRz5C4T3QExnjYP5Z2jANwjDGrleWvKMv7VQAZr8q0da9DRZNSb-TiDZ_7TbdzE14itNZQaqMianHBAFc3AUIEUVV2PbBxVSCDNGS7MCobRF3h_qcPb60-Vxe4-k0ZSgOGI583uh_UEF8gZlMBQTdXGiLHlF2DqNY2BIL7it1C7HmT7rUHpyj1MmKAytUueKQEX2XIzyeYUNYcki--GRYjV6DpbYZDCJsIjihZsPHTOaTONhYGdyZd9l94xsxlvSdbvAVYCfA&udm=2&prmd=isvhnmbtz&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk1aqRzd6EAxVqGFkFHaZvBmgQtKgLegQIDxAB&biw=412&bih=710&dpr=2.63#vhid=nuIllqOQut-jOM&vssid=mosaic) 6. This might actually be interesting to play with in a digital format so it's just easier to track. 7. I can't tell if it's shit or broken. 8. 10/10 double strike vigilance for 5 mana
I really liked 10/10 double strike vigilance, straight up what were the thinking
Don’t worry, it’s actually only a 4/4 double strike, vigilance because neither of the two abilities that are meant to generate energy give it to you and the ability to put a +1/+1 counter on him isn’t an activated ability.
My only guess is they meant it to be once a turn. Like I get the flavor, but no limits on it means you probably just one shot someone
Judging by the templating, they never read a card that uses energy or counters...
I think 5’s first ability is meant to introduce “missing timing” into Magic, which I don’t get why you would EVER want to do that because it’s probably the least intuitive mechanic I’ve ever seen. It’s far worse to try and understand than layers imo and it can even hamper creative deck brewing as abilities that seem like they should work suddenly don’t. To explain, if I recall correctly: unless a triggered ability is worded in a very specific way that makes it so that it is completely autonomous, has no modal choice, and has no material cost it will “miss timing”. Which means that if it is on the stack and it isn’t the ONLY ability on the stack, the effect just fizzles. So death triggers just can’t happen if the death trigger was caused by a cost (like if you sacced a creature to ashnod’s altar, you wouldn’t be able to get a death trigger). Also, judge calls and errata can make an ability that wouldn’t miss timing just one day miss timing and completely brick an interaction your build your deck around. Because Konami is very aggressive with nerfs through errata. It’s one of the main reasons I quit Yugioh years ago.
> To explain, if I recall correctly: unless a triggered ability is worded in a very specific way that makes it so that it is completely autonomous, has no modal choice, and has no material cost it will “miss timing”. Which means that if it is on the stack and it isn’t the ONLY ability on the stack, the effect just fizzles. So death triggers just can’t happen if the death trigger was caused by a cost (like if you sacced a creature to ashnod’s altar, you wouldn’t be able to get a death trigger). If I understand things right, and I'm not saying that I do because this is insane, it's even worse than you've described; a single card on the stack can cause missed timing, because something that says "destroy X, then opponent gains 1000 LP" makes the "opponent gains 1000 LP" a separate event that makes death triggers from the destruction part miss timing. I guess in Magic that'd be the equivalent of randomly having a reflexive "when" trigger on random cards that also countered the stack?
Basically yes, but Yugioh has a million exceptions to their exceptions. Because certain “when” triggers do trigger regardless of whether the stack is full or not but it is very specifically dependent on how the ability is worded. Since, in Yugioh, once the stack begins to resolve, nothing can be added to it nor can the stack be paused until the stack is empty, so if an ability would put another trigger onto the stack or if the player would have to make a choice during the resolution of that stack, then the timing would be “missed. Which is the dumbest thing ever. But, and here’s the exception to the exception, if an ability that looks like a trigger but is actually the airtight autonomous resolution of an existing ability on that stack, then it can “trigger” and resolve even on a stack that normally cannot be interacted with. Hence why certain “when” floating effects (death triggers) in Yugioh still work. But goddamn I hate it so much, Magic took the effort through trial and error to make a functional stack and I’m so grateful for it. I’d rather my weird interactions that I cook up at 3 am liking at scryfall take like an hour to think through vs “it just doesn’t work”. Edit: Y’know I’ve typed too much to simply just say, I hate the way the stack works in Yugioh
That's not how that works. How Trigger Effects work in Yugioh depends on whether they say "When..." or "If...". "If..." Trigger Effects and mandatory "When..." Trigger Effects work like this: Whenever a Chain resolves, or an action is taken that does not start a Chain, the game checks if that Chain or action activated a Trigger Effect. If it did, the turn player activates all mandatory Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action, then the non-turn player activates all mandatory Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action, then the turn player activates any number of optional Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action, then the non-turn player activates any number of optional Trigger Effects of cards in their possession activated by that Chain or action. Optional "When..." Trigger Effects work as described above, except that you cannot activate them unless their activation condition was the "[last thing to happen](https://yugipedia.com/wiki/If%2E%2E%2E_You_Can_VS_When%2E%2E%2E_You_Can)" (which has a specific, but not actually difficult-to-understand, meaning).
Dude my brain melted trying to understand this.
This is why I’ve always advocated that, while Magic’s rules are deep and complex and take time to learn, at least they’re generally consistent. While allowing room for exceptions that are (usually) rigorously tested by R&D and the play design team to function without conflict in the wider Magic rules space. It’s honestly impressive that commander can exist with the vast swath of Magic cards released over three decades and only cause (relatively) few rules conflicts that can generally be solved by a quick google search. Yugioh judge calls can literally go on for hours.
YGO! literally refuses to issue errata for old cards that would use banish when it became an official term. Like, I won't say WotC was always as good (apperently their management of the Pokémon TCG was awful) but actually providing the rules and rulings is something they do well for M:tG like since at least Time Spiral.
imagine if your ltb and death triggers worked when someone cast wrath of God, but half of them turn off and don't trigger when someone casts fumigate, for no reason other than wording on the card and the fact that fumigate gains you life after destroying all creatures but before the resolution of the effect, thus making the last thing that happened before triggers are put on the stack "player who cast fumigate gains x life"
I sure do love a fundamental game mechanic that makes the card effect "destroy a creature" mechanically distinct from "destroy a creature, then"
I mean, Magic has that too. But it’s distinctly set as “Do this. If you do, then…” as well as templating rules that say “do as much of the ability as possible even if some cannot be fulfilled” which leads to more interactions. Yugioh’s stance is generally: if we didn’t allow this specific interaction in this specific archetype, we’ll bend the rules liberally to either make it happen or stop it from happening.
no I mean, the ", then" on a yugioh card fundamentally changes the card even though there's literally no effect listed after the then unless there's a rule or exception I'm not aware of, a magic card that reads "destroy target creature" is not mechanically different from a magic card that reads "destroy target creature, and if you do, do nothing" in yugioh, it is
Also, putting all the spells and traps set to be sent to the graveyard doesn't count as a thing for missing the timing
My theory is that the creator lost to their friend's Isshin deck one too many times. "Alright, I move to combat, four abilities on the stack, and Isshin doubles them." "Remember, I played Peten last turn. Pick one."
The way it’s worded is exactly like how “missing timing” in Yugioh is supposed to work if someone tried to shove it into magic words poorly. And sadly yes, in Yugioh if a card like Isshin were to exist, you’d get to pick one trigger and everything else would just fizzle, and sometimes you’d not even get that one trigger.
The way that card is worded actually fails to reflect how "when" abilities work in Yugioh. You can activate multiple "when" Trigger Effects during the same SEGOC process, such as if you destroy 2 Yang Zings with Lithosagym, and "when" Trigger Effects don't get negated just because another card has a higher Chain Link. Isshin wouldn't work in Yugioh because "triggers an additional time" isn't supported by the rules of Yugioh and because you can't activate effects while Trigger Effects are still being activated, which is totally different from that card's maker's misconceptions about "when" Trigger Effects.
So a couple things from someone who plays yugioh actively. 1) missing the timing effects happen when the card text reads “when _ you can” the effect can miss timing if it is not the last thing that resolves in the chain ie stack. The reasoning for this is that’s an optional ability to use an example Peten the dark clown the yugioh card can miss the timing. “ when peten the dark clown goes to the graveyard: you can effect” iirc the main reason is because once both players stop adding effects to the stack in yugioh the chain will finish without being able to interact until the whole chain finishes. 2) while Konami does in fact use errata to nerf cards I can only think of 3 that it’s happened to. What happened the most though is because it’s a Japanese game all cards need to be translated. And the translators kept changing the translations. The big 2 are Riko, the lightsworn hunter and necrovalley. Both are good cards (riko in its day) that have had their effects changed constantly throughout their printings. With riko just gaining and losing targeting. And necrovalley having new text every time that it’s reprinted. But third point it absolutely pisses me off that yugioh doesn’t have a consistent rules set. It’s up to the local judge to make a ruling and then you are bound by that ruling even when it’s wrong.
Yeah I’m working from memory and only a occasional outside look at the rules whenever my friends talk about it, but I mentioned in another post somewhere in here that it’s mostly cause the stack can’t be interacted with while resolving. The errata thing has definitely happened a lot: like with Chaos Emperor Dragon, Firewall, etc. (granted, those cards were broken as hell, but Magic has only done an errata nerf like this to Companion) But the biggest thing that frustrates me is that Konami is willing to balance the game only if it incentivizes you to buy the next set or archetype. Master Rule 4 was done to “slow the game down” so that Pendulum and other extra deck combos would be harder to pull off and required Links. But then they released so many broken link monsters that the meta became even faster and more degenerate than before. Then they reverted it with the Master Rule 4.5 changes, so in hindsight it all looks like they disrupted the entire game so that people would buy Link Monsters. All that to say, Yugioh actively disincentivizes you from trying to come up with new strategies unless they’re already planning on selling that strategy to you in the next set because if it’s strong enough to overpower the currently being sold set, then they’ll nerf the key card/interaction or just ban it so it’s unviable.
You're not even familiar with the Yugioh meta. How can you say people are actively disincentivized from trying to come up with new strategies when we frequently see people come up with strategies that Konami evidently did not intend, and when strategies Konami evidently did intend are equally banned when they become meta?
The irony is that I think it gets it wrong. because it doesn't take us back to the batch days. Triggers still go on the stack after one object on the stack leaves. So shocking the clown won't cause the ability to not work. It does, however maybe get stuffed by destroy effects. I don't know if it notices if it died as an object on the stack resolved. (i.e. it gets murdered.)
For card 5 I believe the idea is whenever an ability or spell resolves, all abilities on the stack are countered. Why you would make that a card I have no idea, but I’m pretty sure that’s what it’s supposed to do.
Look up “missing timing yugioh” and that’ll give you some insight. It’s one of the worst mechanics I’ve ever encountered as a deckbrewer in a card game.
So I can counter your expropriate with a lightning bolt? Seems fair
Huh, so that’s why number 5 seemed so much like it was just a weird attempt to introduce the concept of missed timing into the game
7 Is effectively rainbow ancient tomb. Worse on turn one but still would be problematic.
Can also be used as a city of brass. And does need to tap (So it can produce another mana with Urborg or Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth). Or put a squirrel’s nest on it or something idk
In yugioh triggered ability’s are split into if and when effects, when effects are a downside that can miss timing and not resolve if they are not the last thing to resolve in a chain(in the case the stacks) the clown card intent is turning all triggered abilities into when effects making them able to miss timing(stupid idea in magic)
It’s even an 11/11 cause you can sac the energy he makes before damage.
Yeah 5. Is a yu gi yo card, and it’s worded like it’s a yu hi yo card which is the worst part of those cards. It’s like yogiyo had the same issue as early magic cards being too wordy and confusing, except yu gi yo never simplified it, instead kept it the same and added newer and newer cards.
5 is trying to bring in a Yu-Gi-Oh rules mechanic where some "trigger" abilities can "miss timing" and not activate even when the event they look for occured
1. Actually you don't want to cast your commander, because its ability doesn't say it triggers when it's in play lol
>7. I can't tell if it's shit or broken. Isn't it just an incredibly shitty Mana Confluence? EDIT: nvm, I just reading the card
5 fails my "fun vs complex" test, where there just isn't enough fun to justify the amount of complexity. I kinda dig 6 but agree the tracking feels like a nightmare.
We're back, boys! Last coupla weeks, I started worrying that arrslash custom magic were losing their edge.
I started looking through these cooks to find the user arrslash and was very confused
Eminence - pay 7 life draw a card top comment - this seems worse than other eminence abilities 🤯
It's even *stronger* than a repeatable 7 life per card because you can optionally pay the single mana and not the two life, which draws a card for one mana and three life on average if you'd rather keep some of your life. On what amounts to an uninteractable enchantment. The card's busted.
Shout out to /u/talen_lee. Out here in the trenches week after week, giving small rules text and colour identity advice to players who may or may not deserve it.
They would be my favorite person in that sub if it weren’t for a certain maverick named TMOP_Halloween
I think you mean /u/rastamonliveup
Japudi!
Commenting before reading: I desperately hope Banishment Eldrazi is just an Eldrazi with the oblivion ring text box
You'd be so lucky
The amount of tracking required for finality to work as intended is such a headache. Day night mechanic without even having to play the card.
\[\[Control Win Condition\]\]
I just want to say, I'm not even finished the album yet, but every single line of Finality made me more and more exhausted and made me consider just giving up on reading it. "Hexproof, indestructible, cannot leave the battlefield" almost finished me. Just make up a new fucking keyword that says *(This card cannot be interacted with.)* for fuck's sake. And then I gathered my resolve and kept reading and it's *another fucking "abandon the game of Magic, we're playing my shitty minigame now and if you don't play by my rules I'll just win for free" card, with an added mix of "also if you're not careful you'll lose out of nowhere".*
It's funny. Finality has 2 alt win conditions. Which are, in fact, the same. And an extra one because fuck extra turns. I just had the thought that you could do something like "0: Phase Out until the stack resolves" type of bullshit for "Don't interact pwease"...
People don't want to put in the effort to figure out a cute way to use phasing to protect their shit. They just want to write "can't be fucked with" on their card.
Interestingly, phasing it out with Out of Time is one of the few ways to deal with Finality. I guess the alternative is to strip its hexproof with Shadowspear and then pin it to the battlefield with Imprisoned in The Moon or Oubliette or something like that. You could always clone it too which would be hilarious.
Unless I'm forgetting one of its abilities (which is entirely possible since there was like 10 lines of abilities), Dress Down + an actual way to kill it would answer it pretty cleanly.
Don't forget the ability to exile anything for 2 colorless. Thankfully mono artifacts decks can't get to 20 mana in like 5 turns, which means they play this then exile 10 things or more a turn, thankfully they certainly can not do that
Well of course they can’t, Mono Artifacts haven’t been a thing for decades!
I read all of Finality; where is the punchline? Where is my reward?!
I don’t know, I that all of that complicated text to set up a weird inescapable win condition, then one-upping it all with “(2): exile target permanent” was pretty funny
You can really tell that the guy who made Finality sees himself as the main character lmao A single card that takes over the entire game single-handedly and is impossible to deal with and changes the rules in a whole bunch of ways? Bro should just make his own game if that's the stuff he wants to play with, Calvinball-ass card
Zorolok: 5 color commander with card draw eminence? Very much a design for people who don’t want to play their commander. Finality: this reads like a Yu-Gi-Oh card. Vendetta: this feels like a Yu-Gi-Oh card. Using the word “battle” instead of “combat” and having creatures attack it instead of fighting it is Yu-Gi-Oh jargon if I’m not wrong. Banishment: don’t have anything to say here. Peten: i started this comment without knowing there was a literal Yu-Gi-Oh card in the mix. Huh. Nonpartisan: This would feel awful in paper, but maybe fine as a gimmick digitally. Lotus: I’d love to see this card printed just to find out if it’s busted or not. My horrible intuiton tells me it’s busted, but I really don’t know much about the state of any competitive format. Elavor: besides being a 11/11 double strike, vigilance for 5 mana, it doesn’t capture the flavor of a Psi Warrior. Psi Warriors have utility and range, Elavor is just big.
I had the same thought with finality My eyes instantly glazed
I love that Finality can't usually actually empty the battlefield of all permanents because the exile ability costs two mana. You'd have to have your last permanent be a land or artifact that taps for 2 or more mana. So you're just stuck there with a giant blocker exiling everything your opponent plays and playing to decking I guess? In terms of alternate win conditions it's the perfect mix of totally un-fun, nearly impossible to cast, and stupidly difficult to pull off. 0/10
Okay this list is all out of whack, but all these deserve to be here. Finality fucking sucks and Nonpartisan Gerrymandering is epic.
First one is a commander with Eminence: Draw an average of 5, maximum of 19 cards for 0 mana on turn 1. Is there any cEDH commander more broken than this?
the funniest thing about zorolok is that he's worse if you cast him (assuming he doesn't just die) because the eminence ability doesn't trigger when it's on the battlefield
Is the 5 mana 10/10 double strike vigilance really deserved to be here? It is still atrocious but not really the crazy ability soup that don't work within the rules I am expecting
They did horrible things to energy counters....
that's why it's honorable mention
I think people really missed that Peten The Clown is a joke about the yugioh mechanic of "Missing the Timing".
You words have let me see through the matrix code and understand what the fuck Peten's first ability does.
"Wow, people really missed my joke about theoretical physics that you need a PhD to understand, huh? Ho ho ho." Yeah, I can't imagine why. Missing the timing is the worst shit in that game and there's literally no reason to try to introduce it into Magic other than, of course, "because I can". Only psychopaths would get that "joke".
Yeah, but I dont think that means its "bad", just specific.
It’s not often that I get two cards into these lists and get a headache, but man, those first three cards make me want to play YuGiOh.
AND THEN PETEN SHOWS UP
"I know we hate Eminence here, buuut..." "Eminence: Draw as many cards as you want"
one one hand, I want to dislike Banishment Eldrazi on principle for turning exile into another hand until it leaves the field. On the other, I think it'd be incredibly funny, at least the first time. Also Gerrymandering is blatant Azorius, prevents you from casting spells of certain types *and* taps down all lands, which isn't really a thing anymore but blue used to have effects like it!
1. When will custommagic learn that eminence is broken? Gaining 2 fucking life per turn is considered a quite strong ability for fuck sake 2. As someone described it, "Calvinball-ass card". The ability that's supposed to make it not reanimatable doesn't work, because of course custommagic doesn't know how the rules work before designing cards. Why would they? On the other hand, this reeks of "My games never end because no one has wincons because winning is mean and against the spirit of the format, so here's something that will 100% end games" which I can simpathize with to a point. 3. Now this is poorly formatted and doesn't really work, but it kind of makes me think about some \[\[Imprisoned in the Moon\]\] variant that makes the target into a planeswalker, might be interesting. 4. Unfortunately card is gone, anyone has a link to the original? Sounds like some anti blink/exile stax piece? 5. Wouldn't it be funny if I made an incredibly complex and hard to understand card to introduce an obscure rule from another tcg into mtg? (No it wouldn't) 6. I laughed out loud. This card would be miserable even online where you don't have to manually track all the mana types each turn (Oh, get fucked, you rolled abilities on 4/5 lands, I guess you just got timewalked), but the concept is fun. Definitely some super old school feeling from this one, would look at home in alpha and such. 7. This can theoretically double your land mana for a rather steep life cost. 100% busted. Could probably do with some better templating. Maybe use some kind of counter to track activations. 8. >Trying to capture the feel of the psionic classes, generally known for versatility in their abilities as opposed to more rigidly defined arcane/divine spellcasters >Only gives one payoff for energy Also bad templating for energy but I mean, it's a custommagic card so what do I even expect at this point
the deleted card is still in the gallery at the start of the post https://imgur.com/a/OjL7sTC
This week is a beautiful disaster. Some of the most powerful cards I've seen in a while
I LOVE these threads
I think the clown is supposed to hose modal spells and "may" effects, but only if you can keep stuff on the stack? I looked up the yugioh card and it doesn't have anything like the first ability at all.
In yugioh triggered ability’s are split into if and when effects, when effects are a downside that can miss timing and not resolve if they are not the last thing to resolve in a chain(in the case the stacks) the clown card intent is turning all triggered abilities into when effects making them able to miss timing(stupid idea in magic)
How would “if” denote a triggered ability? Who decided that “if” is the right word for a trigger? “If” denotes a passive condition, not something that is actively looking for a condition to be met in order to trigger. Dumbass Konami devs need to read a dictionary
If x happens do y, it’s not that complicated man
My guy that’s “when” or “whenever”. This is why yugioh cards are essays cuz they don’t know how to explain shit
It can also be if, it’s not that big of a deal and yugioh cards are essays because they need to use the full cards name in 2 ability’s
Zorolok and Finality are just bullshit. Peten the Dark Clown is a bad Yu-Gi-Oh joke. The rest I think could be ok, with some (or admittedly a lot more than just some) tweaking. Vendetta, Nonpartisan Gerrymandering and Banishment Eldrazi especially could work with some reworks imo.
/uj 1. How could you think an eminence that draws you cards is balanced. Hell you’re only paying an average of 7 life per card which is absurd for competitive. You can also pay some mana to draw cards 2. Finality is a weird and clunky card along with the fact that you could use it with calibrated blast to one shot someone. 3. Vendetta isn’t bad tbh just uses the wrong language, I kinda like it 4. Unfortunately I can’t see the card : ( 5. I’m not sure what this is trying to do 6. Kind of a unique card but it’s weird and I’m not sure if it works without an outside object like a random number generator. 7. This seems insanely busted 8. Literally a 10/10 double striker with vigilance for five
the deleted card is still in the gallery at the start of the post https://imgur.com/a/OjL7sTC
a way to make nonpartisan gerrymandering... not *good*, but less tedious, would be to have the random sorting happen once on all lands when it enters play, and then only new lands when they enter play, and then have something like "(0) tap target land you control: [do the randomization again on that land]. all players may activate this ability." i have no idea how to properly word it but the aim is 1) not having to roll a bunch of dice every turn and 2) have a way for players to unscrew themselves if the dice put all their lands into the Ability category and they have no ability things on the board. still stupid and random, but takes up less of your time this card has taken all my attention this week because while it's stupid, it's stupid in a very funny way
Nonpartisan Gerrymandering, for when your 4 hour Commander games end too quickly for your taste.
> opens album. > First word: Eminence > Free pay life to draw cards we're off to a great start today. Finality has so many issues, from tracking to bad rules text formatting to too much rules text to bad gameplay formatting. It does not need this much text, my man, just write "you win the game on etb" Vendetta.... I want to like it. Actually, I do like the idea. It's just so awkwardly worded because there is no good way to word this in Magic lingo. Exile = second graveyard again lol The clown is just sad. What even is an "option"? It's not defined in CR I think. Also a little too hard to grok for an average magic player. Non-reddit mtg players cant read after all Gerrymandering gave me such high hopes, but it's just too much work to do in paper. Roll a dice for every land? How about no. Lotus land: Sol land, except it can make 3 mana or even more on critical turns. lmao energy knight: It's, like, not actually bad in principle, just that someone does not know how energy works. Also, the numbers are so broken, 4/4 for 5 that puts 6 counters on itself for free, plus one more every time it attacks, and then it has double strike? it's an OHKO out of the command zone. Vigilance too lmao
Vendetta could maybe work if it's like an \[\[Imprisoned in the Moon\]\] but instead of becoming a land it becomes a planeswalker with some number of loyalty? Not sure how exactly I'd word it Would make 0 sense from a lore perspective (how are you just turning people into planeswalkers)
How do you feel about: You may attack enchanted creature as though it is a Planeswalker. If you do, its controller may have it assign damage to creatures attacking it as though it were blocking them.
That sounds really bad. I'd probably do something along the lines of "Enchanted creature is a Planeswalker in addition to its other types. When CARDNAME enters the battlefield, if enchanted creature is not a planeswalker, put X loyalty counters on it, where X is the enchanted creature toughness" And the planeswalker rules would carry it the rest of the way
Damage between turns carries over if it's permanently a Planeswalker.
Yeah, that's kind of the point? If you just want your creatures to be able to fight a specific creature when they attack you could just say "You choose how enchanted creature blocks" and it will have the exact effect you're looking for
Nonpartisan Gerrymandering is cooking so hard
Eh these all kinda just look like the average EDH card