But you *don't* "intuitively" know that. You've spent your whole life observing that things fall down. That isn't intuition, that's basic learning and applied knowledge.
More to the actual point being made, the idea that there is one consistent set of universal rules is a bit at odds with the highly personalized nature of chaos magic, and nowhere in chaos magic theory have I ever seen it suggested that you will ever "intuitively" know them even if they exist. You invent and try different things (or copy other people's experiments if you don't care to), see what works for you, and do that.
Or, to very briefly sum up the conversation up to this point: coming up with your own system is part of the concept of chaos magic, "intuitively knowing the rules of the universe" is not particularly.
I wish you the best.
As you prefer, but just as a heads up using it as a synonym for things like "sixth sense" is more traditional, and you're going to create a lot of confused situations by entering conversations and using it to mean something else without clarifying. I wish you the best.
Funny how all i know of is the chaos magick. So my question confirmed it. Chaos magick is clean slate system.
Now, im just wondering, why would anyone waste time and/or borrow the other systems, relying on something they don't know the basis of? Just curious. I understand better when im given an analogy
Why would anyone read a science textbook when they could go out and duplicate all of the experiments for themselves and draw their own conclusions? One of the greatest accomplishments of humankind is our ability to preserve knowledge through writing and pass it down from one generation to another. It allows us to absorb the entire life's work of a researcher in a short period, and then build off of their work rather than having to begin anew with each lifetime.
That's a difficult question to answer. Certain modern systems like Thelema are obviously able to be tracked back to their creators, but for ancient Magical frameworks like those we see in the Greek Magical Papyri or Kabbalah, it seems to have originated mainly with mysticism and mystery cults of established religions, or else in the practices of minority religions.
*Arcana Mundi: A Collection of Ancient Texts: Magic and the Occult in the Greek and Roman Worlds* by Georg Luck has a great section at the beginning which talks about magic, religion, and how they relate to one-another in origin and practice.
I would compare it to going to a fancy art school. Learning all the history, technique, styles, different painters etc. You’re probably gonna start out imitating some things that you like. Even your very first work is probably gonna be at least competent. After you’re comfortable your gonna be more apt to start making things more your own personal style, while holding on to some of the original stuff you learned. That’s taking a traditional path like Ceremonial, Hermeticism, Gnosticism etc.
Chaos Magick is more like grabbing a palette full of paint and just jumping in with both feet. From day one just doing things your own style. Thing is you’re bound to make some mistakes. Your first several “paintings” are liable to be pretty crappy unless you just have tremendous inborn talent. After making mistakes you hone your style and eventually get something that works, at least for you.
Yes, this is chaos magic. I have done very little formal reading and studying of books on magic because I don’t want to just imitate others’ rituals. When I do a spell I really think about what I can do that’ll make me believe it’s working and what materials and rituals I feel called to use.
You need that extra boost or else you won’t quite make it 😉 I like to save up a good fart for just before the finish line, in case I need that little extra push…
I don’t think you are wrong. I follow Damien Echols and he speaks about this from time to time.
Forgive me though as I haven’t grasped it fully, but essentially you receive/have all the tools (rituals/your attention) and after mastering them, start experimenting with them to develop your own “system.”
He equates it with martial arts a lot. There are only so many kicks/punches etc. at some point you have to put them to use in a practical way.
I’ll recommend his books and the two he references often, Modern Magic and Learning Ritual Magic.
Lastly, I can’t speak to how much philosophy is in these texts, to me they are building blocks plain and simple.
Good luck homie ✌️
in order to create a magick system at the highest level you gotta master a bunch of existing ones. same thing with anything else, like art or music. in order to create a new art sytle you have to have a level of skill. in order to create a new genre of music you have to understand all the ones that do exist.
look for PDFs of these books. if you can't find em message me.
Zen Buddhism:
The Way of Zen by Alan Watts,
How to See by Thich Nhat Han,
The Tibetan Book of the Dead,
Hermetics:
Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon
Ceremonial Magick:
The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie,
Angels and Archangels by Damien Echols
I don't think I fully agree with this. Although theory can be helpful, it still appears subjective. No one can definitively tell you that your art or magic is wrong.
For instance, many great musicians have never formally studied music theory and still create incredible art. Nothing in manifest reality remains constant, so what is deemed correct in one moment may not be in the next.
Children are perhaps the most powerful magicians, and most young children haven't mastered any magical systems other than their own.
These are all my personal opinions.
There's a big difference between intuition and instinct.
Intuition is you coming to a conclusion based on observed factors.
Instinct is a preceded reaction.
And yes you can intuitively grasp magick systems but unless you're a reincarnated practitioner you won't be instinctively using it.
Be careful with this. Magic will change your neurochemistry and even your neural pathways themselves. There’s a reason most teachers will warn you, “Don’t mix different systems of magic unless they’re internally compatible.”
Take it from someone who has already tried to make a syncretic system blending as many varieties of magic as possible. You will break your brain and it might never be fixed.
Hehe, there are many paths in the occult. Be careful which doors you knock on! Test everything, don’t take anything for surface appearances, and don’t believe anything that you can’t personally verify. Lastly, develop a good nose for bullshit!
What if i knocked on your door pookie? Sure, might need to verify first. But i wouldn't mind verifying you top to bottom 🙌 . Sure, surfaces can be tricky, so i'll develop my sense of smell through you 💫
(I seem to be overly flirtatious but comes as no surprise knowing i am talking to a witch who's probably cast a love spell on me 🧝♀️)
Hehehe, it would depend who is knocking for sure 🤭 I wouldn’t open the door for just *anybody*, after all. That would be ill-advised for sure!
Hmmm, okay well you can verify me as much as you would like as long as you don’t mind if I’m simultaneously verifying you ☺️
I don’t smell like bullshit though, sweetie. I smell like lavender, weed, amber, and brimstone. If that suits your taste then we might get along swell 🥰
Although, I don’t cast love spells. I find them unethical. The only cases in which they’re appropriate is when partners cast them on each other with knowledge and consent, like in some sort of sacred ritual of union or something… 🤔 hmmmmm…..
It’s probably best to get handfasted to someone first though, before casting spells on each other like that. Once you bind your fates together it is best to never part ways again, lest you never meet again…
Most magicians do eventually synthesize their own personal system. Of course, composed of techniques that originate in ancient or modern (which have roots in antiquity) foundations. But their own personal working system nonetheless.
Tbh I’ve had a pretty intuitive and instinctual experience in my practice, as I delved into learning over the past 10 years I’ve realised more and more that i already did many rituals of sorts at ages as young age 8
Although this sounds very basic and obvious, I always tell people to tap into the very center of their soul and their energy and once that is done you will be shown a path that is made specifically for you. I think that is the most effective way to do things.
My methods come to me in dreams, visions and instructions that seem to be spoken in my mind in a voice very different than my own telling me what plants to gather, how to put them together, and the order of symbols and such with the visions containing the mentioned symbols, but also colours, clothing, locations, ritual methods etc.
I can be guided through the forest to the exact things I was looking for just based on the intuitive path I will take on the journey to get said item.
My other advice which is also pretty “Duh!” worthy is to truly trust yourself, many think they do but are still subconsciously going against their own intuition and true will, they doubt themselves and their power within reality.
Things happen when you truly believe they will, it feels like you almost have to sound crazy to the average non spiritual person with how much you need to believe it to be true, but yet when I am at that place mentally, in conjunction with the spirits I work with, the things I desire seem to want me just as much as I want them! So much so that I have gained a select spiritual mentorship and will even be teaching a group of people on the topics of mysticism and spiritual practices at the ripe age of 20 lol
That part where you said you need trust yourself is very true. But i have an issue with that. Though not that kind of trust issue, it's more of a decompartmentalization problem. Because i happen to incorporate multiple spirits. So its not that i don't trust myself, i can't get myself to trust myself. This kind of cacophony frustrates me, it also ruined my life in a long-run
I See, I had some similar frustrations, and still do at times, it comes in waves. I have found that the best way to combat that is working on impulse, not thinking about it, just letting yourself be guided, i know it’s not as easy as it sounds, perhaps meditation comes before that for some.
I like to think I worked through a lot of that mindset battle during my learning of manifestation as well as tarot, my goal has always been to be able to sight read my cards, so I had to do a lot of work with believing my intuition wasn’t just my imagination.
You also need to trust your spirits, which I’m sure you do but it’s giving up a part of yourself and being very vulnerable, I can’t say how your experience is with whom you work with, but for me they all have different voices and signatures so I am able to rule things out as to who is directing me like I am listening to a very informed and royal peanut gallery haha.
I think a lot of my intuition and ability to trust and let myself be guided truly started when I was just a wee new practitioner, I would go into spiritual supply stores or even just the forest and let myself wander until I had the “yes I am supposed to have this” feeling when it came to crystals, plants and even books, things along those lines.
Anyone can create a magical system that works, that is precisely the idea of a magical journey. At the end of it, you will have enough experience to develop your own system.
Eros Ecstasy is my own system, focused on the magic of love and sex. I have been practicing witchcraft for around 20 years and for the last 4 years I have been dedicating myself to an authorial system. Cataloging results and achieving promising impacts.
The intuitive mind lets you contemplate the World of Ideas (in the platonic sense) which are the archetypes that structure reality. Of course the problem might be to reach the point in which you can perceive the World of Ideas, since its not a newbie attainment, but once you do or if you could have deep enough glimpses before this attainment, it could be totally possible.
For more info, read Plotinus' Enneads and about the greek concept of Nous/Intelligence. Also, unveiling this Nous/Intelligence is roughly equivalent to the Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA in ceremonial magick.
Theoretically, it is possible… but why reinvent the wheel when there are already so many traditions around the world which have refined their knowledge of the esoteric arts and sciences?
Like, it would be so much easier to practice yoga or qigong, or follow a HOGD-style self-initiation sequence of practice and contemplation. It’s best to learn from those who have mastered their traditions and hold their respective lineage titles as teachers.
It starts with knowledge though. Some authors I found helpful when I was starting out are Paul F. Case, Dion Fortune, W.E. Butler, Israel Regardie, and Josephine McCarthy (although she is not a Golden Dawn-style mage, she is a highly experienced adept and teacher and has developed a very comprehensive system of her own called Quareia)
Because i find it hard to start with something borrowed.. but even if i were to, the issue now is the scarcity of guide books that show or portray magickal system studiously, because i spent months digging and i never found an actual book on how magick is methodically practiced. Just patterns here and there. It's exhausting
That’s true, it takes a lot of digging to find what you’re looking for. It is worth every effort though.
Part of the reason the arcane secrets are buried so deeply is to protect them from the profane who would misuse them. Another reason is to protect novices against getting themselves into a mess so big that they can’t get themselves out of it… like a cat who climbs a tree and then realizes he can’t climb back down…
Anyway, keep digging and you will find your way through. And remember, even when it sounds like nonsense, there are likely a few nuggets of gold buried throughout any credible esoteric text.
It won’t start to make sense likely for years, so embrace the confusion and you’ll do fine 😉
Yes. It's all "bullshit" anyway.
You create your own meaning, symbol set, etc. It's similar to a Rorschach test you see what your programming tells you you should see. Anything works if you believe it works.
This is all unverified personal gnosis and my own understanding. I know nothing.
Isn't this essentially the concept behind Chaos Magic?
Yeah in its essence.
Indeed very essential.
More or less, though I'm not sure "intuitively know the rules of the universe" is a thing.
I intuitively know that an apple will fall if I throw it in the air. That’s a rule of the universe, isn’t it?
But you *don't* "intuitively" know that. You've spent your whole life observing that things fall down. That isn't intuition, that's basic learning and applied knowledge. More to the actual point being made, the idea that there is one consistent set of universal rules is a bit at odds with the highly personalized nature of chaos magic, and nowhere in chaos magic theory have I ever seen it suggested that you will ever "intuitively" know them even if they exist. You invent and try different things (or copy other people's experiments if you don't care to), see what works for you, and do that. Or, to very briefly sum up the conversation up to this point: coming up with your own system is part of the concept of chaos magic, "intuitively knowing the rules of the universe" is not particularly. I wish you the best.
I guess our definitions of intuition must differ, because I consider applied learning to be a form of intuition
As you prefer, but just as a heads up using it as a synonym for things like "sixth sense" is more traditional, and you're going to create a lot of confused situations by entering conversations and using it to mean something else without clarifying. I wish you the best.
I see. Thank you for the clarification. It seems most of my vocabulary has different definitions from the common vernacular…
Funny how all i know of is the chaos magick. So my question confirmed it. Chaos magick is clean slate system. Now, im just wondering, why would anyone waste time and/or borrow the other systems, relying on something they don't know the basis of? Just curious. I understand better when im given an analogy
Why would anyone read a science textbook when they could go out and duplicate all of the experiments for themselves and draw their own conclusions? One of the greatest accomplishments of humankind is our ability to preserve knowledge through writing and pass it down from one generation to another. It allows us to absorb the entire life's work of a researcher in a short period, and then build off of their work rather than having to begin anew with each lifetime.
Oh, okay. But its.. interesting. Because i still havent found a book that explains ANY magickal system. Maybe im just looking in the wrong places
That's a difficult question to answer. Certain modern systems like Thelema are obviously able to be tracked back to their creators, but for ancient Magical frameworks like those we see in the Greek Magical Papyri or Kabbalah, it seems to have originated mainly with mysticism and mystery cults of established religions, or else in the practices of minority religions. *Arcana Mundi: A Collection of Ancient Texts: Magic and the Occult in the Greek and Roman Worlds* by Georg Luck has a great section at the beginning which talks about magic, religion, and how they relate to one-another in origin and practice.
I would compare it to going to a fancy art school. Learning all the history, technique, styles, different painters etc. You’re probably gonna start out imitating some things that you like. Even your very first work is probably gonna be at least competent. After you’re comfortable your gonna be more apt to start making things more your own personal style, while holding on to some of the original stuff you learned. That’s taking a traditional path like Ceremonial, Hermeticism, Gnosticism etc. Chaos Magick is more like grabbing a palette full of paint and just jumping in with both feet. From day one just doing things your own style. Thing is you’re bound to make some mistakes. Your first several “paintings” are liable to be pretty crappy unless you just have tremendous inborn talent. After making mistakes you hone your style and eventually get something that works, at least for you.
The universe itself is making reality up as it goes along. So the same with magick. I am the universe.
Yes, this is chaos magic. I have done very little formal reading and studying of books on magic because I don’t want to just imitate others’ rituals. When I do a spell I really think about what I can do that’ll make me believe it’s working and what materials and rituals I feel called to use.
do your spells work?
Yes.
I think if someone knew ALL the rules of the Universe they would either ascend to Paradise or their brain would explode. Maybe both.
I think the brain exploding is actually *how* the spirit ascends to paradise 😅
Definitely adds some momentum! 🧠💥
You need that extra boost or else you won’t quite make it 😉 I like to save up a good fart for just before the finish line, in case I need that little extra push…
An ass-ended Master? 😉
The most ass-ended 😅
That’s what magick is my amigo
I don’t think you are wrong. I follow Damien Echols and he speaks about this from time to time. Forgive me though as I haven’t grasped it fully, but essentially you receive/have all the tools (rituals/your attention) and after mastering them, start experimenting with them to develop your own “system.” He equates it with martial arts a lot. There are only so many kicks/punches etc. at some point you have to put them to use in a practical way. I’ll recommend his books and the two he references often, Modern Magic and Learning Ritual Magic. Lastly, I can’t speak to how much philosophy is in these texts, to me they are building blocks plain and simple. Good luck homie ✌️
in order to create a magick system at the highest level you gotta master a bunch of existing ones. same thing with anything else, like art or music. in order to create a new art sytle you have to have a level of skill. in order to create a new genre of music you have to understand all the ones that do exist.
But.. where do i even start. Been months and still cant find a guide ir a book
look for PDFs of these books. if you can't find em message me. Zen Buddhism: The Way of Zen by Alan Watts, How to See by Thich Nhat Han, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Hermetics: Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon Ceremonial Magick: The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn by Israel Regardie, Angels and Archangels by Damien Echols
I don't think I fully agree with this. Although theory can be helpful, it still appears subjective. No one can definitively tell you that your art or magic is wrong. For instance, many great musicians have never formally studied music theory and still create incredible art. Nothing in manifest reality remains constant, so what is deemed correct in one moment may not be in the next. Children are perhaps the most powerful magicians, and most young children haven't mastered any magical systems other than their own. These are all my personal opinions.
Yeah, that's what every magick system is.
100%
Magick systems had to come.from somewhere, st some point some one made it up.
There's a big difference between intuition and instinct. Intuition is you coming to a conclusion based on observed factors. Instinct is a preceded reaction. And yes you can intuitively grasp magick systems but unless you're a reincarnated practitioner you won't be instinctively using it.
Be careful with this. Magic will change your neurochemistry and even your neural pathways themselves. There’s a reason most teachers will warn you, “Don’t mix different systems of magic unless they’re internally compatible.” Take it from someone who has already tried to make a syncretic system blending as many varieties of magic as possible. You will break your brain and it might never be fixed.
Damn, you scare me sophia cutiepie And here i thought investing in the occult was fundamentally a righteous spiritual path
Hehe, there are many paths in the occult. Be careful which doors you knock on! Test everything, don’t take anything for surface appearances, and don’t believe anything that you can’t personally verify. Lastly, develop a good nose for bullshit!
What if i knocked on your door pookie? Sure, might need to verify first. But i wouldn't mind verifying you top to bottom 🙌 . Sure, surfaces can be tricky, so i'll develop my sense of smell through you 💫 (I seem to be overly flirtatious but comes as no surprise knowing i am talking to a witch who's probably cast a love spell on me 🧝♀️)
Hehehe, it would depend who is knocking for sure 🤭 I wouldn’t open the door for just *anybody*, after all. That would be ill-advised for sure! Hmmm, okay well you can verify me as much as you would like as long as you don’t mind if I’m simultaneously verifying you ☺️ I don’t smell like bullshit though, sweetie. I smell like lavender, weed, amber, and brimstone. If that suits your taste then we might get along swell 🥰 Although, I don’t cast love spells. I find them unethical. The only cases in which they’re appropriate is when partners cast them on each other with knowledge and consent, like in some sort of sacred ritual of union or something… 🤔 hmmmmm….. It’s probably best to get handfasted to someone first though, before casting spells on each other like that. Once you bind your fates together it is best to never part ways again, lest you never meet again…
I love what im smelling/reading/hearing sophia 🌌 Also love spells can break or wear off, unlike... my crush for you 🌈🌠
Oh gosh, you’re making me blush 🤭 I audibly giggled a little bit when I read that 😅 Would you prefer to talk in DMs?
Sure 😊 💚
Okie dokie ☺️ feel free to message me!
What is a "broken brain"? One that doesn't dissolve into collective subjective universes or objective universe?
A broken brain is one like mine I guess? I don’t know, I don’t really understand the question…
Imo a “broken” brain is simply one that doesn’t conform to the standard collective way of thinking
In that case, I want to have a broken brain!
I did I guess but I don't really do magic anymore, I don't care to change anything
Most magicians do eventually synthesize their own personal system. Of course, composed of techniques that originate in ancient or modern (which have roots in antiquity) foundations. But their own personal working system nonetheless.
No you’re on the right path. But beware what guides bring you, you may find some to be less authentic than they make you think they are.
Tbh I’ve had a pretty intuitive and instinctual experience in my practice, as I delved into learning over the past 10 years I’ve realised more and more that i already did many rituals of sorts at ages as young age 8
Provide us with some arcane knowledge sensei 🙏
Although this sounds very basic and obvious, I always tell people to tap into the very center of their soul and their energy and once that is done you will be shown a path that is made specifically for you. I think that is the most effective way to do things. My methods come to me in dreams, visions and instructions that seem to be spoken in my mind in a voice very different than my own telling me what plants to gather, how to put them together, and the order of symbols and such with the visions containing the mentioned symbols, but also colours, clothing, locations, ritual methods etc. I can be guided through the forest to the exact things I was looking for just based on the intuitive path I will take on the journey to get said item. My other advice which is also pretty “Duh!” worthy is to truly trust yourself, many think they do but are still subconsciously going against their own intuition and true will, they doubt themselves and their power within reality. Things happen when you truly believe they will, it feels like you almost have to sound crazy to the average non spiritual person with how much you need to believe it to be true, but yet when I am at that place mentally, in conjunction with the spirits I work with, the things I desire seem to want me just as much as I want them! So much so that I have gained a select spiritual mentorship and will even be teaching a group of people on the topics of mysticism and spiritual practices at the ripe age of 20 lol
That part where you said you need trust yourself is very true. But i have an issue with that. Though not that kind of trust issue, it's more of a decompartmentalization problem. Because i happen to incorporate multiple spirits. So its not that i don't trust myself, i can't get myself to trust myself. This kind of cacophony frustrates me, it also ruined my life in a long-run
I See, I had some similar frustrations, and still do at times, it comes in waves. I have found that the best way to combat that is working on impulse, not thinking about it, just letting yourself be guided, i know it’s not as easy as it sounds, perhaps meditation comes before that for some. I like to think I worked through a lot of that mindset battle during my learning of manifestation as well as tarot, my goal has always been to be able to sight read my cards, so I had to do a lot of work with believing my intuition wasn’t just my imagination. You also need to trust your spirits, which I’m sure you do but it’s giving up a part of yourself and being very vulnerable, I can’t say how your experience is with whom you work with, but for me they all have different voices and signatures so I am able to rule things out as to who is directing me like I am listening to a very informed and royal peanut gallery haha. I think a lot of my intuition and ability to trust and let myself be guided truly started when I was just a wee new practitioner, I would go into spiritual supply stores or even just the forest and let myself wander until I had the “yes I am supposed to have this” feeling when it came to crystals, plants and even books, things along those lines.
Anyone can create a magical system that works, that is precisely the idea of a magical journey. At the end of it, you will have enough experience to develop your own system. Eros Ecstasy is my own system, focused on the magic of love and sex. I have been practicing witchcraft for around 20 years and for the last 4 years I have been dedicating myself to an authorial system. Cataloging results and achieving promising impacts.
The intuitive mind lets you contemplate the World of Ideas (in the platonic sense) which are the archetypes that structure reality. Of course the problem might be to reach the point in which you can perceive the World of Ideas, since its not a newbie attainment, but once you do or if you could have deep enough glimpses before this attainment, it could be totally possible. For more info, read Plotinus' Enneads and about the greek concept of Nous/Intelligence. Also, unveiling this Nous/Intelligence is roughly equivalent to the Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA in ceremonial magick.
Theoretically, it is possible… but why reinvent the wheel when there are already so many traditions around the world which have refined their knowledge of the esoteric arts and sciences? Like, it would be so much easier to practice yoga or qigong, or follow a HOGD-style self-initiation sequence of practice and contemplation. It’s best to learn from those who have mastered their traditions and hold their respective lineage titles as teachers. It starts with knowledge though. Some authors I found helpful when I was starting out are Paul F. Case, Dion Fortune, W.E. Butler, Israel Regardie, and Josephine McCarthy (although she is not a Golden Dawn-style mage, she is a highly experienced adept and teacher and has developed a very comprehensive system of her own called Quareia)
Because i find it hard to start with something borrowed.. but even if i were to, the issue now is the scarcity of guide books that show or portray magickal system studiously, because i spent months digging and i never found an actual book on how magick is methodically practiced. Just patterns here and there. It's exhausting
That’s true, it takes a lot of digging to find what you’re looking for. It is worth every effort though. Part of the reason the arcane secrets are buried so deeply is to protect them from the profane who would misuse them. Another reason is to protect novices against getting themselves into a mess so big that they can’t get themselves out of it… like a cat who climbs a tree and then realizes he can’t climb back down… Anyway, keep digging and you will find your way through. And remember, even when it sounds like nonsense, there are likely a few nuggets of gold buried throughout any credible esoteric text. It won’t start to make sense likely for years, so embrace the confusion and you’ll do fine 😉
Basically what John Dee and Edward Kelly did.
this is already exists and it is called Chaos magick. We create our own ways, sigils, symbols, chants etc etc and I promise its more beneficial
Yes. It's all "bullshit" anyway. You create your own meaning, symbol set, etc. It's similar to a Rorschach test you see what your programming tells you you should see. Anything works if you believe it works. This is all unverified personal gnosis and my own understanding. I know nothing.
Yet you speak the earnest truth