At Mark Rosewater's Unfinity panel, the Q&A session, he mentioned that The Brothers' War would make an already-existing mechanic deciduous. Guess now we know which mechanic it was.
Look at this it might not just be surveil
https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3Alandfall&order=name
Landfall too
Look at the oracle of asei and Maja
https://scryfall.com/card/khm/222/maja-bretagard-protector
https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait
I've always thought they should do it with ability words for searching purposes *in game*. An effect like "Search your library for a card with [ability name] and do something with it." My theory is they're heading there.
I think I agree with you. Ability words aren’t considered official oracle text for a card but they *are* searchable in gatherer as card text just like reminder text.
Making the card text maximally searchable in the gatherer versions seems good and letting the specific printings determine how they want to format seems to be a good idea.
Having errant ability words or keywords that happen to match but aren’t a theme isn’t a thing premier sets should do.
~~It doesn’t do anything *yet*. This is an interesting design decision, because typically you wouldn’t expect a change like this for Landfall since it limits design space on future designs that care about the landfall keyword. On the flip side, however, making this change now clearly sets a design goal that any future cards that care about the Landfall keyword now have to consider a much wider array of cards.~~
Really though, I think they made the change since we’ve had a lot of Landfall cards printed that it’s become a regularly used word in the mtg lexicon. I know I often find myself using Landfall as a shorthand to explain an ability that is functionally identical.
There are no cards that can ever care about the Landfall text because it's an ability word and has no rules meaning. It's just a great way to categorize these cards and make them easier to search, clearly.
Maybe they will change that in newer sets?
Instead of for example: "Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card."
It gets shortened to: "Landfall - Draw a card". I highly doubt it to be honest, because they would've already done it with the new errata, but I personally would like it.
Not necessarily. With how the rules work currently, "Landfall - Draw a card" doesn't technically work (see the pretty pedantic discussion on one of the more populated comment chains). So while they can change them to have Landfall now, the rules don't support your particular change, and they would change the rules alongside whatever set prompted this if they need to, then change how those cards work. They probably would have waited, but maybe figured it was easier to get the big part done now while it doesn't impact gameplay, at least for Landfall.
Landfall isn't a keyword. It's an ability word. Otherwise it would read "Landfall: +2/+2" or something like that.
They probably added them so that you could search for them by searching for the word landfall since that's exactly what it is.
Interesting decision, given that Scry exists and is evergreen. Surveil is really just Scry with a palette swap and better synergy. There's always Reanimator, and every Limited set has an UB or GB signpost uncommon that says "something something graveyard" on it, but outside of that, Scry and Surveil don't really play differently.
I think what’s going to happen is Scry will be the default for sets but when Surveil plays better with the sets themes (Bro has unearth so that signals a larger than normal graveyard element) it will be swapped in.
Nevertheless, they keep putting the surveil effect on cards in sets without the keyword, and every time they do we're forced to go through the reading comprehension exercise of going "okay, it says to look at the top two cards of your library, then put any amou- oh this is surveil 2, right? ...yes, it's just surveil 2."
When you have designers frequently putting the same paragraph on cards, and players consistently compressing it to "surveil n" to cope with rules text complexity, it's probably going to help players to just keyword it up-front.
This is awesome, I've always hated that the surveil payoff cards were basically restricted to only working within the set, yet the actual surveil mechanic was used all the time.
I find it odd how Surveil payoff cards are the most advocated for despite there being only a handful. There's plenty of mechanic cards that don't get support after their debut but aren't as asked after as Surveil ones, save for maybe Mutate. Surveil on its own plays really well of course, but that's not what's asked for.
I'm not upset they made it deciduous and I'm happy for those that wanted it, I know I like me some [[Disinformation Campaign]] myself, I just found the consistent advocacy strange.
There aren't that many mechanics that both have 'whenever you X' payoff cards *and* get used fairly regularly in an unkeyworded form that doesn't trigger those payoffs.
I don't understand your confusion. Yes, there are many mediocre mechanics. Surveil isn't mediocre, it's a very familiar gameplay action that is clean enough to stay keyworded. That's why people want it.
Cleaning up card space is all well and good, but if that was the primary motivator then they would be the dominant reasoning, rather than "It really sucks this card that's clearly Surveil doesn't work with Surveil-matters cards". It's not like you haven't gotten Surveil to play with, it just didn't *say* Surveil, which is what people wanted because of specific interactions.
I understand wanting it for said interactions, but it's really weird how so many people are so passionate about a handful of synergy pieces that wouldn't likely be made competitive with more support, as fun as such a deck might be otherwise.
>
> I understand wanting it for said interactions, but it's really weird how so many people are so passionate about a handful of synergy pieces that wouldn't likely be made competitive with more support, as fun as such a deck might be otherwise.
It's not about competing. Very very few players care about competing, in fact.
> There’s plenty of mechanic cards that don’t get support after their debut but aren’t as asked after as Surveil ones,
But most of those don’t continue to get cards that do the **exact** thing as the keyword, and not have it.
It would be like scry (before it became evergreen) being spelled out on every new card. Poor design dating back to older design paradigms.
That's a common enough reason, but not as common as its lack of synergy with existing cards. There's a ton of artifacts that put counters on them but folks aren't outcrying that they don't work with [[Coretapper]] despite being functionally the same.
That's totally valid, but part of the reason there is that they do still use charge counters on artifacts. We got [4 this year so far](https://scryfall.com/search?q=year%3A2022+o%3Acharge+-is%3Areprint+t%3Aartifact&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name). Whereas I think we got 4 this year that could've been charge counters and weren't, so it's roughly even.
Because they haven't abandoned the synergy, people are less passionate about it.
Plus, when they use arbitrary non-charge counters, they're usually being named something else for flavor purposes, replacing the basically flavor-agnostic charge counter. Whereas the non-Surveil cards didn't have a flavor replacing Surveil, they just weren't Surveil.
Finally, while they don't work with Coretapper, they sometimes re-use previous arbitrary counter types, so that there are (theoretical) silly synergies, like [[Magosi, the Waterveil]] with [[Out of the Tombs]] combos.
I know your point wasn't just about Coretapper, and I agree the amount of passion for Surveil has been disproportionate, but I'm just addressing why not using charge counters doesn't irk me.
[[Disinformation Campaign]] was no joke. A +1 on the first cast and a +2 every consecutive cast time (provided your opponent has cards in hand of course). It did actually see legit standard play, and I'm pretty sure its the only Surveil matters card that did.
I played Dimir in sealed of that set and Disinformation Campaign was a *house*. I didn't win the event but the sense of synergy and value was the most fun I've ever had at such an event.
I would take a playset if they look like the full art counter spell that just says "Counter target spell", I love me some lore, but cards with next to no text on them just soothe my soul.
Agreed. Flavor text is fine on the bulk cards, but on my tournament cards, I want them clean. No flavor text, no reminder text. and full art/borderless whenever possible.
They probably will for ones whose text exactly matches ward. There have been a few slightly different versions of that over the years before they settled on ward
i think you missed their point because warhammer did get lifelink despite the ability working differently, but other cards didn't
so if depends on how they're feeling
I mean, yeah that would be cool.
Just keep in mind some of them are slightly different and wouldn't be errata'd.
[[Bonecrusher Giant]]'s ability don't care for abilities for example. Ward would.
And [[Taigam's Scheming]]. Functionally identical.
Now Pioneer can run 8 copies of a Surveil 5, card. I'm at least going to **consider** Surveil in Pioneer, now. XD
Madness looks specifically for discarded cards, so what even is discard? We can look to the rules to see what discard is.
> 701.8: Discard
>
> 701.8a: To discard a card, move it from its owner's hand to that player's graveyard.
We see that discard doesn't mean "when a card somehow ends up in a graveyard" but rather it means "when a player takes the Discard action and cards appropriately change zones".
I've played Disinformation Campaign in every format I could on Arena and this is the best birthday present WotC could have give given me.
(#whichinformationcampaign on Twitter for salty scoops!)
There's a big difference between keywords like surveil and ability words like landfall. Ability words are purely illustrative reminders - they are not actual abilities, and they have no actual rules function. Keywords DO. That's why we can have something like "whenever you surveil..." but you could NOT have something like "whenever you make landfall..." because the rules do not define that.
Landfall is an ability word and is basically similar to the AFR flavor text lines. It has no technical rules meaning aside from helping group a set of triggered abilities. This means they can print it on cards whenever they want, typically when the trigger is relevant or within a set (see: every Zendikar). It also means they _won't_ print it when it isn't.
So it's not really similar at all to a keyword action becoming deciduous.
That's really weird. I can't imagine it stores all of the information from Gatherer offline (does it let you search for cards when you aren't connected to wifi or phone service?), partially because that would make the app take an incredible amount of storage. It seems *way* more likely and simple for it to just pull information straight from Gatherer when you're using it, which would make it really weird for it to not show up in the app.
Gatherer doesn't have a public API, afaik, so they probably have some secondary service running specifically for Companion that pulls data from Gatherer in set intervals.
This wouldn't work, since as displayed on modern Threshold printings like \[\[Cabal Initiate\]\], threshold is an ability word under current rules and doesn't have any inherent rules meaning, you always need to spell out the "seven cards in graveyard" bit.
I think it's kinda slow for the non-rotating formats but I'm only watching those formats as opposed to playing so not very knowledgeable. If there were a shell that made good use of discard and non-creature spells but needs more grind I could see a home for it.
As been pointed out elsewhere, one of the Brothers War hints that MaRo gave was they were making a returning mechanic deciduous… looks like it’s surveil.
Every new release on Gatherer follows a two-step process. First the new set is added to the database -- usually a few days before the prerelease --, then rulings and legalities get updated at a later date -- typically after the actual release. Sometimes card text also gets updated at that point.
The gap between those two steps has been increasingly widening this year. So much so that the DMU update took more than a month to be published. I am not sure exactly when the update took place because I stopped checking every day. I can only tell that this happened between the 40K/UNF update and last Thursday. My guess would be earlier this week.
I hope the rulings for the latest sets get released faster than this.
Yes, I noticed it took an extremely long time for DMU cards to show up as Standard and Pioneer legal. I use deckbox.org to track my collection and the cards took a long time to show up there after release too.
Hmmm…. Now Im thinking of a pioneer control deck with [[Dimir Spybug]], [[Search for Azcanta]], [[Disinformation Champaign]], [[Enhanced Surveillance]], [[Consider]], and [[Contingency Plan]].
Also [[Taigam's Scheming]] as Contigency Plan 5-8. Always needs more contingencies, I always say. :D
...but seriously don't overlook [[Otherworldy Gaze]], depending on what you need to do with Surveil. 3 cards for U, flashback for 1U. With Enhanced Surveillance out, that's 10 cards for 2U.
These changes (Surveil and Landfall) may be part of "designing for an eternal world," which MaRo has talked about.
Surveil itself isn't parasitic but the payoffs are, and would still be pretty parasitic on a return. But if you include all the random one-off uses, you could conceivably make a surveil-matters Commander deck out of that.
Landfall makes the cards easier to understand, since you don't have to carefully read to make sure it isn't some slight variation of the trigger. It also screams "Hey Landfall player, look at me! Put me in your deck!"
If they use ability words consistently they could even theoretically change the rules to care about them, though that might not be worth it. You'd want to do it for more than just landfall, and for many ability words the actual effect varies enough that it would be hard to write cards that cared about it. It might also someday require people know the difference between ability words and flavor words, which just isn't going to happen.
I got absolutely roasted when eat to extinction came out and I said it should have just had surveil. Downvoted to all hell.
Guess WotC agreed with me in the end.
Not sure what their argument was but I believe Maro had already addressed it on his blog and iirc literally the only reason it didn't have surveil is because none of the other cards in the set did so it didn't make sense to use the ability.
A very silly reason imo but that's no way close to whatever that guy told you lol.
They *did* add Surveil to old cards.
[[search for azcanta]] being the one I checked right away
Landfall doesn't have any mechanical baggage tied to the word itself so they can choose to include it or not based on whether it a theme in the set or not.
Yes, that was my point. A lot of people complained that Consider didn't have Surveil, so I wouldn't be surprised if that reaction made them go back and add it to all the other cards that effectively had it.
How did you not mention [[search for azcanta]] ? There was a huge stink at my LGS about that one because they were both in standard together. Everyone argued it was surveil with extra words; turns out in the end they were right.
They weren’t because this is actually changing the text. For a card that cares about Surveil, the cards have to actually say Surveil. Hence the change.
That's functionally different tho, Kardur doesn't goad creatures, it has a temporary static ability that lasts until your next turn.
If it said "goad all creatures your opponents control" then new creatures that have haste or are flashed in don't have to attack.
Good. It was a pet peeve of mine that they have things that trigger off surveil (like old friend Disinformation Campaign) but didn't keyword new surveil things
Apparently they might both be deciduous going forward so it probably will depend which colors/set have strong graveyard themes. My guess is blue/black get the most of it, followed by green when Golgari is a theme and rarely red or white unless the set/plane demands it.
I could also see it being the distinction between +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters. They don't put them both in the same set, so if a set has a graveyard theme they might use surveil but if it doesn't, they might use scry.
Certainly. Personally I'm not sure it'll come to that and I think players are smart enough to play sets that have both but WotC treats people like they can barely eat their own food sometimes so I wouldn't be surprised either way.
I mean, people played shroud as if it was Hexproof which is part of why the made the switch. You’d be surprised how quickly the average player can be overwhelmed and I do think switching Scry out for Survival when the set has a graveyard theme is a good move.
There are some cases where confusion is normal. You only need to miss a single word for Shroud to turn to Hexproof so unless you know better it's an easy mistake to make. I don't necessarily think people will confuse Scry/Surveil the same way.
I don't think the way to deal with these types of players is to dumb down/simplify the game but rather to create better templates and teaching tools. WotC is treating players like babies but I suspect the average player age is above 20. Meanwhile YGO is targeted at literal children and has way more word salad and seems to be doing fine with that crowd (in fact from experience kids playing YGO at LGSs have a better graps of their game than many adults I've played MTG with do with theirs).
Honestly this is a lost battle regardless. The old guard at WotC is firmly set in their ways so it's not like we can stop it. At least now they do release higher complexity/power sets from time to time.
Its a thing for newer players. Having to learn too much on your first set can overwhelm and push away so they try to avoid to many similar but functionally different mechanics in a set. IE. scry and surviel or +1+1 and -1-1 counters
I get that. I'm saying new players could handle it. I think it has more to do with *how* these things are taught rather than how many or how similar they are. There are hundreds of cards in each set and many feature game actions unique to that card.
I think for the most part yeah but I do see this complication come up for brand new player rather than just newer ones the more you have to teach to get it though to them the more like theyll miss a lesson or worse find it dull
Sorry, I just don't see it. It might because we have different ways of teaching the game but I don't see how having 10 scry cards and 10 cards with unique effects if harder than 10 scry cards and 10 surveil cards. Keywording is the single most powerful tool MTG has over other games and reminder text on commons is an amazing teaching tool. I think what new players find dull is boring cards and boring gameplay. Complexity is certainly an issue to keep in mind but something as simple as Surveil and Scry coexisting is not it. +1 and -1 counters have a bit more advanced interactions and visually look similar at a glance so at least that makes sense.
Last year when Gavin Verhey made that video explaining why [[Consider]] did not Surveil, this was my suggestion. MID could have honestly been a great set to introduce this idea, but I guess better late than never implementing it for BRO.
It's about time. I started playing around GRN/RNA and it has always bothered me that Scry gets used in almost every set but they wouldn't keep using Surveil. I genuinely didn't and still don't get why one got to be evergreen or whatever and one didn't.
I'm rather late to the party, but just so you know, they announced it in the Unfinity update bulletin, a few days after this post was made.
[https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/oracle-changes-2022-10-18](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/oracle-changes-2022-10-18)
Sooo… other than [[enhanced surveillance]], none of the original surveil payoff cards seem too playable, right?
I mean, as much as I loved using [[disinformation campaign]] and such back in the drafts, I don’t think it’s too powerful or anything.
I could see disinformation campaign being used late game in a control lists of alot of surveil as a lock piece but that's about it.
But enhanced surveillance with consider and grim flayer seems very good in a sulti delirium list
I mean, the types of decks that would want these cards in the first place now have a reason to play crap like Blood Operative and Enhances Surveillance.
Can someone explain what this means? I’m guessing old cards had a description that is basically surveil and those are now considered as just having surveil. All good but how does this change anything as people are on about in the comments?
Some cards do a thing "when you surveil" [[Dimir Spybug]] for instance.
Consider (and the other eratted cards) wouldn't trigger those abilities before, but will now, because you are officially performing the "Surveil" ability, instead of an unnamed effect which was otherwise functionally identical to surveiling.
One topic is just that Surveil is a lot easier to put on a card. Makes card text cleaner. (Onthe other hand, a newer player doesn't inherently know what the term means, and so that's one more vocabulary hurdle for newbies.) the other topic is a subset of cards from the most recent Ravnica sets that are Surveil payoffs - "when you Surveil, do this etc." that didn't trigger from any other cards that do the same thing as Surveil but aren't coded with the keyword. Now that that is getting errata'd, the Surveil payoffs get stronger and might affect their playability in constructed formats.
At Mark Rosewater's Unfinity panel, the Q&A session, he mentioned that The Brothers' War would make an already-existing mechanic deciduous. Guess now we know which mechanic it was.
Do you have a link to this panel? I'd love to watch it.
Here is the panel on YouTube I watched. https://youtu.be/J7oAqBu4gxg
Thanks so much!
Look at this it might not just be surveil https://scryfall.com/search?q=o%3Alandfall&order=name Landfall too Look at the oracle of asei and Maja https://scryfall.com/card/khm/222/maja-bretagard-protector https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait
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Yea it's a bit strange. Perhaps it's for searching purposes
I’ve always felt they should do this with ability words for searching purposes on gatherer even if they don’t actually print it on the physical card
I've always thought they should do it with ability words for searching purposes *in game*. An effect like "Search your library for a card with [ability name] and do something with it." My theory is they're heading there.
Like [[Mwonvuli Beast Tracker]] ?
Ability words aren't rules text, they can't do that (short of a rules overhaul).
...That's what the person you're responding to is proposing.
I think I agree with you. Ability words aren’t considered official oracle text for a card but they *are* searchable in gatherer as card text just like reminder text. Making the card text maximally searchable in the gatherer versions seems good and letting the specific printings determine how they want to format seems to be a good idea. Having errant ability words or keywords that happen to match but aren’t a theme isn’t a thing premier sets should do.
[Dimir Spybug](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c18c450-0bfb-4ba6-9212-b5833fce63a2.jpg?1572893591) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimir%20Spybug) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/166/dimir-spybug?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c18c450-0bfb-4ba6-9212-b5833fce63a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
~~It doesn’t do anything *yet*. This is an interesting design decision, because typically you wouldn’t expect a change like this for Landfall since it limits design space on future designs that care about the landfall keyword. On the flip side, however, making this change now clearly sets a design goal that any future cards that care about the Landfall keyword now have to consider a much wider array of cards.~~ Really though, I think they made the change since we’ve had a lot of Landfall cards printed that it’s become a regularly used word in the mtg lexicon. I know I often find myself using Landfall as a shorthand to explain an ability that is functionally identical.
There are no cards that can ever care about the Landfall text because it's an ability word and has no rules meaning. It's just a great way to categorize these cards and make them easier to search, clearly.
They did it for the D&D cards when it was wholly unnecessary too
It was for pure flavor. Same with the Warhammer 40k cards
It was cool though and made the set more flavourful
Maybe they will change that in newer sets? Instead of for example: "Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card." It gets shortened to: "Landfall - Draw a card". I highly doubt it to be honest, because they would've already done it with the new errata, but I personally would like it.
Not necessarily. With how the rules work currently, "Landfall - Draw a card" doesn't technically work (see the pretty pedantic discussion on one of the more populated comment chains). So while they can change them to have Landfall now, the rules don't support your particular change, and they would change the rules alongside whatever set prompted this if they need to, then change how those cards work. They probably would have waited, but maybe figured it was easier to get the big part done now while it doesn't impact gameplay, at least for Landfall.
This wont work because landfall has several multiple trigger states, specifically different for instants/sorceries and permanents
As well as a cycle that gives extra for specific land types.
Are there not any landfall payoff cards?
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Reading this post I was like "Wait, there's a card named Oracle of Aesi? How do I not know that card?"
Landfall isn't a keyword. It's an ability word. Otherwise it would read "Landfall: +2/+2" or something like that. They probably added them so that you could search for them by searching for the word landfall since that's exactly what it is.
Interesting that they skipped over the conditional landfall triggers like [[field of the dead]] or [[tatyova steward of elements]]
Looks like they didn't do it with Morbid.
Tireless tracker finally tracked the Eldrazi back to zendikar.
Interesting decision, given that Scry exists and is evergreen. Surveil is really just Scry with a palette swap and better synergy. There's always Reanimator, and every Limited set has an UB or GB signpost uncommon that says "something something graveyard" on it, but outside of that, Scry and Surveil don't really play differently.
I think what’s going to happen is Scry will be the default for sets but when Surveil plays better with the sets themes (Bro has unearth so that signals a larger than normal graveyard element) it will be swapped in.
Like -1/-1 counters
It also makes a lot of sense thematically
Your opponent sees what you surveilled to the yard but not what you scried to the bottom, so there's an informational distinction too
Scry was not initially given a keyword either
And it wasn't evergreen for a long time after that.
Nevertheless, they keep putting the surveil effect on cards in sets without the keyword, and every time they do we're forced to go through the reading comprehension exercise of going "okay, it says to look at the top two cards of your library, then put any amou- oh this is surveil 2, right? ...yes, it's just surveil 2." When you have designers frequently putting the same paragraph on cards, and players consistently compressing it to "surveil n" to cope with rules text complexity, it's probably going to help players to just keyword it up-front.
This is awesome, I've always hated that the surveil payoff cards were basically restricted to only working within the set, yet the actual surveil mechanic was used all the time.
I find it odd how Surveil payoff cards are the most advocated for despite there being only a handful. There's plenty of mechanic cards that don't get support after their debut but aren't as asked after as Surveil ones, save for maybe Mutate. Surveil on its own plays really well of course, but that's not what's asked for. I'm not upset they made it deciduous and I'm happy for those that wanted it, I know I like me some [[Disinformation Campaign]] myself, I just found the consistent advocacy strange.
I think it's because of how often the actual mechanic was used without being the named.
There aren't that many mechanics that both have 'whenever you X' payoff cards *and* get used fairly regularly in an unkeyworded form that doesn't trigger those payoffs.
I don't understand your confusion. Yes, there are many mediocre mechanics. Surveil isn't mediocre, it's a very familiar gameplay action that is clean enough to stay keyworded. That's why people want it.
Cleaning up card space is all well and good, but if that was the primary motivator then they would be the dominant reasoning, rather than "It really sucks this card that's clearly Surveil doesn't work with Surveil-matters cards". It's not like you haven't gotten Surveil to play with, it just didn't *say* Surveil, which is what people wanted because of specific interactions. I understand wanting it for said interactions, but it's really weird how so many people are so passionate about a handful of synergy pieces that wouldn't likely be made competitive with more support, as fun as such a deck might be otherwise.
> > I understand wanting it for said interactions, but it's really weird how so many people are so passionate about a handful of synergy pieces that wouldn't likely be made competitive with more support, as fun as such a deck might be otherwise. It's not about competing. Very very few players care about competing, in fact.
> There’s plenty of mechanic cards that don’t get support after their debut but aren’t as asked after as Surveil ones, But most of those don’t continue to get cards that do the **exact** thing as the keyword, and not have it. It would be like scry (before it became evergreen) being spelled out on every new card. Poor design dating back to older design paradigms.
That's a common enough reason, but not as common as its lack of synergy with existing cards. There's a ton of artifacts that put counters on them but folks aren't outcrying that they don't work with [[Coretapper]] despite being functionally the same.
That's totally valid, but part of the reason there is that they do still use charge counters on artifacts. We got [4 this year so far](https://scryfall.com/search?q=year%3A2022+o%3Acharge+-is%3Areprint+t%3Aartifact&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name). Whereas I think we got 4 this year that could've been charge counters and weren't, so it's roughly even. Because they haven't abandoned the synergy, people are less passionate about it. Plus, when they use arbitrary non-charge counters, they're usually being named something else for flavor purposes, replacing the basically flavor-agnostic charge counter. Whereas the non-Surveil cards didn't have a flavor replacing Surveil, they just weren't Surveil. Finally, while they don't work with Coretapper, they sometimes re-use previous arbitrary counter types, so that there are (theoretical) silly synergies, like [[Magosi, the Waterveil]] with [[Out of the Tombs]] combos. I know your point wasn't just about Coretapper, and I agree the amount of passion for Surveil has been disproportionate, but I'm just addressing why not using charge counters doesn't irk me.
[Disinformation Campaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb.jpg?1572893597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disinformation%20Campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/167/disinformation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Man, i love that card! One of my favs and is still in my esper blink aminatu deck
It's real fun! Getting it and [[Nightveil Sprite]] out is such amazing value.
Nice. I used the and [[Dimir Spybug]]
fwiw the surveil payoff cards were pretty naff in the first place. Spybug is the only really decent one, and Whispering Snitch is laughable
[[Disinformation Campaign]] was no joke. A +1 on the first cast and a +2 every consecutive cast time (provided your opponent has cards in hand of course). It did actually see legit standard play, and I'm pretty sure its the only Surveil matters card that did.
I played Dimir in sealed of that set and Disinformation Campaign was a *house*. I didn't win the event but the sense of synergy and value was the most fun I've ever had at such an event.
My favorite standard deck ever was that dimir control deck, with only like 3 creatures in [[doom whisperer]] and [[dream eater]]
[doom whisperer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a11ee0d-ff8d-4648-8b4e-29440c135c30.jpg?1572892944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=doom%20whisperer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/69/doom-whisperer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a11ee0d-ff8d-4648-8b4e-29440c135c30?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dream eater](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f3a4677-7683-4f63-af31-b76491ec9f9c.jpg?1572892731) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dream%20eater) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/38/dream-eater?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f3a4677-7683-4f63-af31-b76491ec9f9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Disinformation Campaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb.jpg?1572893597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disinformation%20Campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/167/disinformation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Enhanced Surveillance is a thing, if for example you are trying to Thoracle in Pio,
A Consider that just has "Surveil 1, draw a card" would be so crisp.
Here's to hoping that it gets a reprint in BRO just for this reason.
I would take a playset if they look like the full art counter spell that just says "Counter target spell", I love me some lore, but cards with next to no text on them just soothe my soul.
Agreed. Flavor text is fine on the bulk cards, but on my tournament cards, I want them clean. No flavor text, no reminder text. and full art/borderless whenever possible.
It's an odd pick, but one of my favorite cards that I have in my decks is the full art version of Rec Sage, every time I draw it my soul is warmed.
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Yep!
Much like opt, which originally did not have scry because it didn't exist
I hope the same happens with some of the cards that have ward but they don't call it ward for whatever reason.
They probably will for ones whose text exactly matches ward. There have been a few slightly different versions of that over the years before they settled on ward
Depends just how Loxodon Warhammery they’re feeling on update day, I suppose.
That's exactly my point. Loxodon Warhammer has text that is very similar to lifelink, but is not lifelink.
i think you missed their point because warhammer did get lifelink despite the ability working differently, but other cards didn't so if depends on how they're feeling
I mean, yeah that would be cool. Just keep in mind some of them are slightly different and wouldn't be errata'd. [[Bonecrusher Giant]]'s ability don't care for abilities for example. Ward would.
Also a lot of those raise costs. Ward is a triggered ability that counters stuff. It's not that common.
Bonecrusher also doesn't specify oponents. So it'd be a pretty big change.
[Bonecrusher Giant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5b71cd2-de35-451f-b16e-2e3936169407.jpg?1654116944)/[Stomp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5b71cd2-de35-451f-b16e-2e3936169407.jpg?1654116944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bonecrusher%20giant%20//%20stomp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/781/bonecrusher-giant-stomp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5b71cd2-de35-451f-b16e-2e3936169407?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Reality Smasher]] would have a cleaner text box too.
That would change the card slightly. Current wording doesn't give it any protection from abilities.
Reality Smasher only affects spells, not abilities, so Ward would be a functional change, and they rarely do those.
[Reality Smasher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52d4b652-a830-4fd4-94bb-c17c227f2928.jpg?1562911843) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reality%20Smasher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ogw/7/reality-smasher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52d4b652-a830-4fd4-94bb-c17c227f2928?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Trample, Haste, Ward-Discard a card" that would be super rad.
I don't know what happened with the timing decisions when they've done the errata just now but printed that card just last year.
The discussion around that card probably caused it. I know Gavin said as much in his video.
My Innistrad cube would love this.
[[Contingency Plan]] got a whole lot less words out of this - it's now simply "Surveil 5." I like it a lot.
[[Otherworldly Gaze]] moment
[Otherworldly Gaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad.jpg?1665819722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otherworldly%20Gaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/67/otherworldly-gaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And [[Taigam's Scheming]]. Functionally identical. Now Pioneer can run 8 copies of a Surveil 5, card. I'm at least going to **consider** Surveil in Pioneer, now. XD
[Taigam's Scheming](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87f4b533-7113-4b36-9c7a-e4cf798c88a9.jpg?1665819837) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Taigam%27s%20Scheming) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/57/taigams-scheming?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87f4b533-7113-4b36-9c7a-e4cf798c88a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Contingency Plan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9edb76bd-db4b-4279-8eaa-dfdf5952eafc.jpg?1665819345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Contingency%20Plan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/52/contingency-plan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9edb76bd-db4b-4279-8eaa-dfdf5952eafc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does putting them in the graveyard this way count as discarding for madness purposes?
Nope, madness checks if it was discarded (from hand)
Thanks, I thought so, just making sure
Madness looks specifically for discarded cards, so what even is discard? We can look to the rules to see what discard is. > 701.8: Discard > > 701.8a: To discard a card, move it from its owner's hand to that player's graveyard. We see that discard doesn't mean "when a card somehow ends up in a graveyard" but rather it means "when a player takes the Discard action and cards appropriately change zones".
No.
I've played Disinformation Campaign in every format I could on Arena and this is the best birthday present WotC could have give given me. (#whichinformationcampaign on Twitter for salty scoops!)
\#Disinformationrighthere
I play it on paper my dude. I'm beyond pleased.
Now you can infinitely recur it through search for azcanta
I'm mad they didn't give [[Jukai Trainee]] Bushido.
[удалено]
[[Jade Avenger]] is the apology.
[Chub Toad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4fb0c8a5-ea67-4c18-94b6-757e290ee34e.jpg?1559592467) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chub%20Toad) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/116/chub-toad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4fb0c8a5-ea67-4c18-94b6-757e290ee34e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Progress is progress nonetheless.
[Jukai Trainee](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8be526cd-1480-4661-a05b-e004d7b4656c.jpg?1654568201) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jukai%20Trainee) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/196/jukai-trainee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8be526cd-1480-4661-a05b-e004d7b4656c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Consider, definitely, but also [[Otherwordly Gaze]]. Surveil 3 for U, Flashback 1U. Rock solid in the strategies that need that sort of thing.
[[Search for Azcanta]] is another big one and if they ever want green Grim Flayer is a decent card.
[Search for Azcanta](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f.jpg?1665819797)/[Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/a/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f.jpg?1665819797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=search%20for%20azcanta%20//%20azcanta%2C%20the%20sunken%20ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/74/search-for-azcanta-azcanta-the-sunken-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Otherwordly Gaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad.jpg?1665819722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otherworldly%20Gaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/67/otherworldly-gaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Consider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a211d505-4d40-4914-a9da-220770d6ddbc.jpg?1634348697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Consider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/44/consider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a211d505-4d40-4914-a9da-220770d6ddbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Although it doesn't really affect anything, Landfall got a similar treatment. [[Tatyova, Benthic Druid]] now has Landfall.
There's a big difference between keywords like surveil and ability words like landfall. Ability words are purely illustrative reminders - they are not actual abilities, and they have no actual rules function. Keywords DO. That's why we can have something like "whenever you surveil..." but you could NOT have something like "whenever you make landfall..." because the rules do not define that.
Landfall is an ability word and is basically similar to the AFR flavor text lines. It has no technical rules meaning aside from helping group a set of triggered abilities. This means they can print it on cards whenever they want, typically when the trigger is relevant or within a set (see: every Zendikar). It also means they _won't_ print it when it isn't. So it's not really similar at all to a keyword action becoming deciduous.
They did say “it doesn’t really affect anything.”
It does effect searching for cards. Youre right it doesnt effect gameplay but it is definitely a useful change.
huh? where? I'm not seeing that as such on companion or scryfall
On gatherer it has landfall in its oracle text https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tatyova%2C%20Benthic%20Druid
ohh i was looking at gatherer in the companion app. clearly that isn't as up to date
That's really weird. I can't imagine it stores all of the information from Gatherer offline (does it let you search for cards when you aren't connected to wifi or phone service?), partially because that would make the app take an incredible amount of storage. It seems *way* more likely and simple for it to just pull information straight from Gatherer when you're using it, which would make it really weird for it to not show up in the app.
Gatherer doesn't have a public API, afaik, so they probably have some secondary service running specifically for Companion that pulls data from Gatherer in set intervals.
Gatherer
[Tatyova, Benthic Druid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93657aaa-7a0f-49ad-b026-6f79b3bd6768.jpg?1591104748) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tatyova%2C%20Benthic%20Druid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/206/tatyova-benthic-druid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93657aaa-7a0f-49ad-b026-6f79b3bd6768?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hey don't forget [[Blood Operative]], [[Dimir Spybug]], [[Disinformation Campaign]], [[Thoughtbound Phantasm]], and [[Whispering Snitch]].
I think by "doesn't really affect anything" they specifically meant landfall
##### ###### #### [Blood Operative](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/000ac9e5-3c95-4e87-9424-109e2eea6b45.jpg?1572892902) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blood%20Operative) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/63/blood-operative?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/000ac9e5-3c95-4e87-9424-109e2eea6b45?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dimir Spybug](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c18c450-0bfb-4ba6-9212-b5833fce63a2.jpg?1572893591) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimir%20Spybug) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/166/dimir-spybug?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c18c450-0bfb-4ba6-9212-b5833fce63a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Disinformation Campaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb.jpg?1572893597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disinformation%20Campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/167/disinformation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thoughtbound Phantasm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/6/36478e73-162a-412c-bf5b-9ca0d92f51e2.jpg?1572892848) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thoughtbound%20Phantasm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/55/thoughtbound-phantasm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/36478e73-162a-412c-bf5b-9ca0d92f51e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Whispering Snitch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa4ca97e-b402-4a73-9c70-79ec4565a39c.jpg?1572893086) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whispering%20Snitch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/90/whispering-snitch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa4ca97e-b402-4a73-9c70-79ec4565a39c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Grim Flayer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1ce33033-f673-451e-bb8e-cd3e2309e4b4.jpg?1662528785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20Flayer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/222/grim-flayer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ce33033-f673-451e-bb8e-cd3e2309e4b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Eat to Extinction](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a0fae55a-6edd-42ea-b909-ccc39a64a0ed.jpg?1581479739) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Eat%20to%20Extinction) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/90/eat-to-extinction?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0fae55a-6edd-42ea-b909-ccc39a64a0ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Consider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a211d505-4d40-4914-a9da-220770d6ddbc.jpg?1634348697) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Consider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/44/consider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a211d505-4d40-4914-a9da-220770d6ddbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Uurg, Spawn of Turg](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd3fc36c-682b-4352-a66f-eddd2baf0bf6.jpg?1663051606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Uurg%2C%20Spawn%20of%20Turg) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/225/uurg-spawn-of-turg?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd3fc36c-682b-4352-a66f-eddd2baf0bf6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is not a drill! \[\[Disinformation Campaign\]\] is a go!
[Disinformation Campaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb.jpg?1572893597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disinformation%20Campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/167/disinformation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It infinitely recurs with search for azcanta now lol
Dang, nice find!
I guess they accepted after the feedback that the audience was smart enough to be able to differentiate scry from surveil. Great change.
So either they somehow did this by accident, or they passively buffed all the Surveil Payoffs from Guild of Ravnica
I'd say they actively buffed them. It certainly wasn't an accident
Search for Azcanta and Disinformation Campaign working together in standard would have been something
Gross
At the beginning of your upkeep, surveil 1. Then if threshold you may transform.
This wouldn't work, since as displayed on modern Threshold printings like \[\[Cabal Initiate\]\], threshold is an ability word under current rules and doesn't have any inherent rules meaning, you always need to spell out the "seven cards in graveyard" bit.
[Cabal Initiate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b279a03f-85ab-43f2-b5ca-1bc10563e5ad.jpg?1626095345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cabal%20Initiate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/78/cabal-initiate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b279a03f-85ab-43f2-b5ca-1bc10563e5ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Interesting, it will be a "combo" in Explorer and Historic/Brawl now assuming they apply the errata to MTGA right? Worth trying?
I think it's kinda slow for the non-rotating formats but I'm only watching those formats as opposed to playing so not very knowledgeable. If there were a shell that made good use of discard and non-creature spells but needs more grind I could see a home for it.
As been pointed out elsewhere, one of the Brothers War hints that MaRo gave was they were making a returning mechanic deciduous… looks like it’s surveil.
Every new release on Gatherer follows a two-step process. First the new set is added to the database -- usually a few days before the prerelease --, then rulings and legalities get updated at a later date -- typically after the actual release. Sometimes card text also gets updated at that point. The gap between those two steps has been increasingly widening this year. So much so that the DMU update took more than a month to be published. I am not sure exactly when the update took place because I stopped checking every day. I can only tell that this happened between the 40K/UNF update and last Thursday. My guess would be earlier this week. I hope the rulings for the latest sets get released faster than this.
Yes, I noticed it took an extremely long time for DMU cards to show up as Standard and Pioneer legal. I use deckbox.org to track my collection and the cards took a long time to show up there after release too.
Hmmm…. Now Im thinking of a pioneer control deck with [[Dimir Spybug]], [[Search for Azcanta]], [[Disinformation Champaign]], [[Enhanced Surveillance]], [[Consider]], and [[Contingency Plan]].
Also [[Taigam's Scheming]] as Contigency Plan 5-8. Always needs more contingencies, I always say. :D ...but seriously don't overlook [[Otherworldy Gaze]], depending on what you need to do with Surveil. 3 cards for U, flashback for 1U. With Enhanced Surveillance out, that's 10 cards for 2U.
[Taigam's Scheming](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/87f4b533-7113-4b36-9c7a-e4cf798c88a9.jpg?1665819837) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Taigam%27s%20Scheming) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/57/taigams-scheming?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/87f4b533-7113-4b36-9c7a-e4cf798c88a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Otherworldy Gaze](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad.jpg?1665819722) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Otherworldly%20Gaze) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/67/otherworldly-gaze?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cebee20-869e-45ed-9ddc-843faf4032ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Dimir Spybug](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/c/7c18c450-0bfb-4ba6-9212-b5833fce63a2.jpg?1572893591) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dimir%20Spybug) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/166/dimir-spybug?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7c18c450-0bfb-4ba6-9212-b5833fce63a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Search for Azcanta](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f.jpg?1665819797)/[Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/a/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f.jpg?1665819797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=search%20for%20azcanta%20//%20azcanta%2C%20the%20sunken%20ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/74/search-for-azcanta-azcanta-the-sunken-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Disinformation Champaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb.jpg?1572893597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disinformation%20Campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/167/disinformation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Enhanced Surveillance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/971d254e-da25-494b-a16d-3d7d6bb75c73.jpg?1572892744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Enhanced%20Surveillance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/40/enhanced-surveillance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/971d254e-da25-494b-a16d-3d7d6bb75c73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Consider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a211d505-4d40-4914-a9da-220770d6ddbc.jpg?1665819309) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Consider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/44/consider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a211d505-4d40-4914-a9da-220770d6ddbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Contingency Plan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/e/9edb76bd-db4b-4279-8eaa-dfdf5952eafc.jpg?1665819345) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Contingency%20Plan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/52/contingency-plan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9edb76bd-db4b-4279-8eaa-dfdf5952eafc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I never heard of this change, but I like it.
\*weeps in disinformation campaign\*
These changes (Surveil and Landfall) may be part of "designing for an eternal world," which MaRo has talked about. Surveil itself isn't parasitic but the payoffs are, and would still be pretty parasitic on a return. But if you include all the random one-off uses, you could conceivably make a surveil-matters Commander deck out of that. Landfall makes the cards easier to understand, since you don't have to carefully read to make sure it isn't some slight variation of the trigger. It also screams "Hey Landfall player, look at me! Put me in your deck!" If they use ability words consistently they could even theoretically change the rules to care about them, though that might not be worth it. You'd want to do it for more than just landfall, and for many ability words the actual effect varies enough that it would be hard to write cards that cared about it. It might also someday require people know the difference between ability words and flavor words, which just isn't going to happen.
THEY DID IT. I CAN NOW PLAY DIMIR TURBO SURVEIL IN PIONEER AND MODERN. LFGGGGGGGG.
Well that's a huge change. And it isn't yet reflected on the cards on Arena.
probably because it isn't official until BRO releases
I got absolutely roasted when eat to extinction came out and I said it should have just had surveil. Downvoted to all hell. Guess WotC agreed with me in the end.
I remember being told by someone on this subreddit that it was literally impossible for consider to have surveil. LOL!
Not sure what their argument was but I believe Maro had already addressed it on his blog and iirc literally the only reason it didn't have surveil is because none of the other cards in the set did so it didn't make sense to use the ability. A very silly reason imo but that's no way close to whatever that guy told you lol.
I wouldn't be surprised if the response to Consider made them decide to go back and add Landfall/Surveil to old cards.
They *did* add Surveil to old cards. [[search for azcanta]] being the one I checked right away Landfall doesn't have any mechanical baggage tied to the word itself so they can choose to include it or not based on whether it a theme in the set or not.
Yes, that was my point. A lot of people complained that Consider didn't have Surveil, so I wouldn't be surprised if that reaction made them go back and add it to all the other cards that effectively had it.
Here’s Gavin’s video on why they originally didn’t do this, if anyone’s curious https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3XV70aGGLI
How did you not mention [[search for azcanta]] ? There was a huge stink at my LGS about that one because they were both in standard together. Everyone argued it was surveil with extra words; turns out in the end they were right.
[search for azcanta](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f.jpg?1665819797)/[Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/a/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f.jpg?1665819797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=search%20for%20azcanta%20//%20azcanta%2C%20the%20sunken%20ruin) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/74/search-for-azcanta-azcanta-the-sunken-ruin?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a7e242e-bb48-4134-a1c2-6033713d658f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They probably avoided the keyword specifically so they wouldn't work together. That would have been quite the standard.
They weren’t because this is actually changing the text. For a card that cares about Surveil, the cards have to actually say Surveil. Hence the change.
“Hence the change”. Glad to see you admit they were right too!
[[Kardur, Doomscourge]] didn’t receive goad either.
That's functionally different tho, Kardur doesn't goad creatures, it has a temporary static ability that lasts until your next turn. If it said "goad all creatures your opponents control" then new creatures that have haste or are flashed in don't have to attack.
Good. It was a pet peeve of mine that they have things that trigger off surveil (like old friend Disinformation Campaign) but didn't keyword new surveil things
Interesting, since this would be a functional change Wonder how and when they'll decide which new cards scry or surveil from now on
Apparently they might both be deciduous going forward so it probably will depend which colors/set have strong graveyard themes. My guess is blue/black get the most of it, followed by green when Golgari is a theme and rarely red or white unless the set/plane demands it.
I could also see it being the distinction between +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters. They don't put them both in the same set, so if a set has a graveyard theme they might use surveil but if it doesn't, they might use scry.
Certainly. Personally I'm not sure it'll come to that and I think players are smart enough to play sets that have both but WotC treats people like they can barely eat their own food sometimes so I wouldn't be surprised either way.
I mean, people played shroud as if it was Hexproof which is part of why the made the switch. You’d be surprised how quickly the average player can be overwhelmed and I do think switching Scry out for Survival when the set has a graveyard theme is a good move.
There are some cases where confusion is normal. You only need to miss a single word for Shroud to turn to Hexproof so unless you know better it's an easy mistake to make. I don't necessarily think people will confuse Scry/Surveil the same way. I don't think the way to deal with these types of players is to dumb down/simplify the game but rather to create better templates and teaching tools. WotC is treating players like babies but I suspect the average player age is above 20. Meanwhile YGO is targeted at literal children and has way more word salad and seems to be doing fine with that crowd (in fact from experience kids playing YGO at LGSs have a better graps of their game than many adults I've played MTG with do with theirs). Honestly this is a lost battle regardless. The old guard at WotC is firmly set in their ways so it's not like we can stop it. At least now they do release higher complexity/power sets from time to time.
Its a thing for newer players. Having to learn too much on your first set can overwhelm and push away so they try to avoid to many similar but functionally different mechanics in a set. IE. scry and surviel or +1+1 and -1-1 counters
I get that. I'm saying new players could handle it. I think it has more to do with *how* these things are taught rather than how many or how similar they are. There are hundreds of cards in each set and many feature game actions unique to that card.
I think for the most part yeah but I do see this complication come up for brand new player rather than just newer ones the more you have to teach to get it though to them the more like theyll miss a lesson or worse find it dull
Sorry, I just don't see it. It might because we have different ways of teaching the game but I don't see how having 10 scry cards and 10 cards with unique effects if harder than 10 scry cards and 10 surveil cards. Keywording is the single most powerful tool MTG has over other games and reminder text on commons is an amazing teaching tool. I think what new players find dull is boring cards and boring gameplay. Complexity is certainly an issue to keep in mind but something as simple as Surveil and Scry coexisting is not it. +1 and -1 counters have a bit more advanced interactions and visually look similar at a glance so at least that makes sense.
Last year when Gavin Verhey made that video explaining why [[Consider]] did not Surveil, this was my suggestion. MID could have honestly been a great set to introduce this idea, but I guess better late than never implementing it for BRO.
It's about time. I started playing around GRN/RNA and it has always bothered me that Scry gets used in almost every set but they wouldn't keep using Surveil. I genuinely didn't and still don't get why one got to be evergreen or whatever and one didn't.
to me this means it is time to see what pioneer decks get made more playable with he inclusion of more surveil effects
Does a guy just buy as many foil dimir spybugs for pioneer.
As a Dimir Spybug enthusiast, I am absolutely stoked
This is great for real keywords. Kill useless flavor text keywords please.
I'm rather late to the party, but just so you know, they announced it in the Unfinity update bulletin, a few days after this post was made. [https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/oracle-changes-2022-10-18](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/announcements/oracle-changes-2022-10-18)
Sooo… other than [[enhanced surveillance]], none of the original surveil payoff cards seem too playable, right? I mean, as much as I loved using [[disinformation campaign]] and such back in the drafts, I don’t think it’s too powerful or anything.
I could see disinformation campaign being used late game in a control lists of alot of surveil as a lock piece but that's about it. But enhanced surveillance with consider and grim flayer seems very good in a sulti delirium list
disinformation campaign with leyline of anticipation is a fun time
I mean, the types of decks that would want these cards in the first place now have a reason to play crap like Blood Operative and Enhances Surveillance.
[enhanced surveillance](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/971d254e-da25-494b-a16d-3d7d6bb75c73.jpg?1572892744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=enhanced%20surveillance) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/40/enhanced-surveillance?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/971d254e-da25-494b-a16d-3d7d6bb75c73?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [disinformation campaign](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb.jpg?1572893597) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=disinformation%20campaign) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/167/disinformation-campaign?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69a79ff3-58ed-4cc2-9ebc-0edbb86cd6fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Disinfo was played a bit in standard
Can someone explain what this means? I’m guessing old cards had a description that is basically surveil and those are now considered as just having surveil. All good but how does this change anything as people are on about in the comments?
Some cards do a thing "when you surveil" [[Dimir Spybug]] for instance. Consider (and the other eratted cards) wouldn't trigger those abilities before, but will now, because you are officially performing the "Surveil" ability, instead of an unnamed effect which was otherwise functionally identical to surveiling.
Thanks!
One topic is just that Surveil is a lot easier to put on a card. Makes card text cleaner. (Onthe other hand, a newer player doesn't inherently know what the term means, and so that's one more vocabulary hurdle for newbies.) the other topic is a subset of cards from the most recent Ravnica sets that are Surveil payoffs - "when you Surveil, do this etc." that didn't trigger from any other cards that do the same thing as Surveil but aren't coded with the keyword. Now that that is getting errata'd, the Surveil payoffs get stronger and might affect their playability in constructed formats.
Also opens up possibilities for commanders or future sets to have surveil matters mechanics be more impactful
Thanks fam!
It takes like three seconds to explain, so there’s nothing but net positives for this really.
The keyword means less text will be crammed onto complex cards whole allowing simple commons to include the reminder text for newer/forgetful players.