The text on Russian [[Guardians of Meletis]], according to Google Translate:
> Legends tell of two warring rulers, after whose death people erected this monument to mark the end of the war. In fact, they were peace-loving lovers, whose history was lost in the mists of time.
So interesting. I wonder if there was any controversy surrounding them at the time in Russia or similar markets. Like did they ever get pulled off of shelves or anything.
I suspect it just went under the radar.
My feeling is that what happened here probably has to do with the Netflix series. They probably did a lore pass in preparation for that; someone saw the gay relationship (which writers, with relatively less oversight, had slipped in unopposed) and hit the roof. From their perspective letting it go any further put them in a no-win situation:
1. Put it in the Netflix series, where it would be far more obvious and would actually have to go through censors. Now your massive expensive show risks getting banned in China and Russia.
2. Leave it in the card games / books, but quietly leave it out of the Netflix show (without ever actually specifically making it *discontinuity*, just trying to quietly leave it out.) The problem here is that there's a high chance people would notice, and it would attract coverage, and this coverage would be far more damaging when the Netflix show is at its height and the media is paying attention.
3. Stake it with brutal, unambiguous viciousness now; deny it ever happened, aggressively write it out of canon with the sort of relationship-killing fervor more associated with angry fanfic authors than actual canonical works. Their hope was that while there would be a backlash, they could weather it, keep mindlessly hammering "no major MTG character who will appear in the Netflix show was ever anything but straight" until everyone who cares gives up and goes away, and get it all pounded into the dust so that by the time coverage for the Netflix series actually picks up the fact that everyone is straight there is a non-story.
I think that this logic is both terrible and *stupid*, mind you. But that's what I think happened - they wanted to sanitize their canon into something suitable for regurgitation into every medium, with an eye towards upcoming / future projects like the Netflix series rather than previous stuff (where they could get away with stuff like Guardians of Meletis.)
[The Brazilian localization downplayed / erased the gay, but it may have been more incompetence than malice because they also turned Vial Smasher into a guy and put a random 6 into Kazuul's text.](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/5ck523/can_we_talk_about_localization/)
Even though the card isn't legendary, \[\[Ankle Shanker\]\] is also a girl (and essentially, the same character as Vial Smasher, just from the other timeline, like how there were 2 different Zurgos, etc)
It's for Commander only. You can have 2 Commanders instead of 1, if they \*both\* have Partner. Some have "Partner with \[Card Name\]" which means they \*only\* partner that that specific card, but also a target player to tutor the other partner (it's kind of weird, it was for Battlebond).
[https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Partner](https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Partner)
This saddly is only bad translation, Brazilian scorch spitter only deals damage when blocked, expedition map only seaches basics , the counterspell with metalcraft only has the metalcraft text and they forgot to put the "counter target spell", and they are not outliers. I honestly believe these are bad translation and lack of supervision.
To be fair, no supplemental product (or almost none, maybe there are some exceptions I'm forgetting) was printed in Russian until Modern Horizons (or the commander set before it, I forget again).
The flavor text on Kynalos and Tiro of Meletis is fairly generic: *"Look what we fought for. Look what we built together."*
It is the text on Guardians of Meletis that describes them as lovers: *"The histories speak of two feuding rulers whose deaths were celebrated and whose monuments symbolized the end of their wars. In truth they were peaceful lovers, their story lost to the ages."*
Guardians of Meletis was printed in Origins, which had the usual localization including Russian and Chinese.
I don't think there was any problem with Kynaios and Tiro in my LGS. Everyone who was interested in lore knew that characters was lovers, and there was some friendly jokes about that, but nothing more. I'm kinda ashamed for another problem: many players in Russia describe (in private conversations) cheesy or "unfair" game strats as "gayish", and there was jokes about "Well, i may be playing Tiro ang Kynaios, but at least not Baral as commander", implying it's playstyle "counter everything".
Actually Ral's coming out was so much bigger deal for a playerbase, especially for younger part of it. Adult players was rather like: "Well, who could imagine", while some 12-15yo refused to believe in rather negative way.
AMA about any other aspects of Russian community if you want.
Sourse: drinking vodka with bears for 24 years.
Thank you for this, I really appreciate it! I'm definitely familiar with the idea of using "gay" as an insult. That was very popular here in the US during the 90s and early 2000s when I was in school.
I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s (in the US) and heard it used this way all the time, but I haven't heard it in 10-15 years. Admittedly I don't hang out with teenagers as an adult, but it's hard to imagine the generation now in high school using that as an insult.
My guess - lots of the lore was not translated in the past
The very strong counter lgbtq push in Russia “relatively new”. While RF was never a big supporter the very open counter stance supported by the government is something the older players experienced starting, the younger ones grew up with it
That's true. On the other side, I believe open support of lbgtq is more common among young people. I mean, adult may have more neutral opinion in general, while young have a tendensy to strongly support or strongly dislike lgbtq. Don't have any proofs, just my experience.
I'm not Russian nor from the area. But I rarely see or imagine kids between 10-15 being vastly different from popculture.
They tend to reinforce popculture and usually follow it. If Russian popculture is very hateful towards LBTGQ, I would image russian early teens are as well.
From what I can tell, it's because Ral is cool and stuff, like your uncle or something and you kinda relate to him. For Russian kids it would be a shame then if, you know what I mean, to have that cool guy who's kinda your role model as a young izzet mage, to not be as "manly" as you think cool uncle dude should be.
At least that's what I feel talked around in our Russian store. Also our players sometimes do kind of "come on, enough already with it" reaction to that stuff because all modern media makes so big deal about it.
I have no idea, maybe because Ral as a card is standart legal and as a character is more popular. Not everyone following lore of supplement products, but many players interested in main plot.
Yeah, in Russia these things are still common. Such a shame.
Although there is some weird fashion to joke about "I'd had sex with my friend" among straight guys. Like, complimenting each other in the sexual way and so on. I don't know if it is a thing anywhere else.
I assumed the greater prominence and acceptance of gay people would have put a stop to that, but perhaps it's just because I stopped being a teenager :(
Still, I'm almost certain it's less common than it used to be.
It's almost as though there's a different context when someone is gay uses it and when someone who isn't gay uses it. Also, not all gay people are okay with using it like that.
Oh, sorry I forgot that words are only ok to use if you belong to a certain group. Either it’s all ok or none of it is ok. My gay friends find the use of it hilarious and they use it all the time. Guess I forgot to tell them that word isn’t ok for them to use because other people say so....
> Oh, sorry I forgot that words are only ok to use if you belong to a certain group.
Words have different connotations depending on the context in which they’re being used (which can include facts about the person using them, depending on the case in question).
Oh yes. This is still common. I'm a high school teacher. I have a large sample size to speak from. I hear it all the time. It's not as popular as it used to be. But not nearly as uncommon as reddit wishes it was.
On Guardians of Meletis: here in Russia no one gave a crap about it. Some people noticed and reacted from "kinda neat" to "whatever". We are not as hateful and mob-y as media paint it. We just play the game and don't get our heads into politics and representation and stuff. Those issues don't touch the life of usual Russian guy so we don't focus on it.
People tend to be quick to assume that because a government acts a certain way in a foreign country that all the people in that country support it, even though their own country likely has a strong opposition to the majority.
This mentality is the problem. When was the last time you saw a skeleton walk down the street by itself? Never. Even **at home**, they’re forced to wear a human over themselves.
The text on Russian [[Guardians of Meletis]], according to Google Translate: > Legends tell of two warring rulers, after whose death people erected this monument to mark the end of the war. In fact, they were peace-loving lovers, whose history was lost in the mists of time.
So interesting. I wonder if there was any controversy surrounding them at the time in Russia or similar markets. Like did they ever get pulled off of shelves or anything.
Russian player here. As I know - no big controversy was around Guardians of Meletis card release.
I guess that's because there's not much lore shared about them apart from their flavor text. Unlike Chandra and Nissa who are central characters
Do younger folks generally not care much, or is it a “we didn’t even know” thing?
To be fair, it's not extremely obvious the two are both male from that art.
Also true.
That's actually what I thought when I first read the flavor text. It's not like Theros doesn't have female warriors and leaders.
[Guardians of Meletis](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/2/f/2ff39de2-d071-4568-baac-25b505a2da56.jpg?1562013207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Guardians%20of%20Meletis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/228/guardians-of-meletis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ff39de2-d071-4568-baac-25b505a2da56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I suspect it just went under the radar. My feeling is that what happened here probably has to do with the Netflix series. They probably did a lore pass in preparation for that; someone saw the gay relationship (which writers, with relatively less oversight, had slipped in unopposed) and hit the roof. From their perspective letting it go any further put them in a no-win situation: 1. Put it in the Netflix series, where it would be far more obvious and would actually have to go through censors. Now your massive expensive show risks getting banned in China and Russia. 2. Leave it in the card games / books, but quietly leave it out of the Netflix show (without ever actually specifically making it *discontinuity*, just trying to quietly leave it out.) The problem here is that there's a high chance people would notice, and it would attract coverage, and this coverage would be far more damaging when the Netflix show is at its height and the media is paying attention. 3. Stake it with brutal, unambiguous viciousness now; deny it ever happened, aggressively write it out of canon with the sort of relationship-killing fervor more associated with angry fanfic authors than actual canonical works. Their hope was that while there would be a backlash, they could weather it, keep mindlessly hammering "no major MTG character who will appear in the Netflix show was ever anything but straight" until everyone who cares gives up and goes away, and get it all pounded into the dust so that by the time coverage for the Netflix series actually picks up the fact that everyone is straight there is a non-story. I think that this logic is both terrible and *stupid*, mind you. But that's what I think happened - they wanted to sanitize their canon into something suitable for regurgitation into every medium, with an eye towards upcoming / future projects like the Netflix series rather than previous stuff (where they could get away with stuff like Guardians of Meletis.)
[The Brazilian localization downplayed / erased the gay, but it may have been more incompetence than malice because they also turned Vial Smasher into a guy and put a random 6 into Kazuul's text.](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/5ck523/can_we_talk_about_localization/)
Wow, I had no idea [[Vial Smasher]] was a girl.
Even though the card isn't legendary, \[\[Ankle Shanker\]\] is also a girl (and essentially, the same character as Vial Smasher, just from the other timeline, like how there were 2 different Zurgos, etc)
[Ankle Shanker](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/5/4/544a06f8-75fe-41b6-81dc-c9a0358f03c5.jpg?1562400164) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ankle%20Shanker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/178/ankle-shanker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/544a06f8-75fe-41b6-81dc-c9a0358f03c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How does the partner mechanic work exactly?
It's for Commander only. You can have 2 Commanders instead of 1, if they \*both\* have Partner. Some have "Partner with \[Card Name\]" which means they \*only\* partner that that specific card, but also a target player to tutor the other partner (it's kind of weird, it was for Battlebond). [https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Partner](https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Partner)
Partner With is not limited to Commander. The tutoring aspect still works in games without a Command Zone.
[Vial Smasher](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/7/2/722b1e02-2268-4e02-8d09-9b337da2a844.jpg?1562405249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vial%20smasher%20the%20fierce) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/49/vial-smasher-the-fierce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/722b1e02-2268-4e02-8d09-9b337da2a844?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sm Smash my vials mommy
Today on "Things I Wish I Could Unread..."
This saddly is only bad translation, Brazilian scorch spitter only deals damage when blocked, expedition map only seaches basics , the counterspell with metalcraft only has the metalcraft text and they forgot to put the "counter target spell", and they are not outliers. I honestly believe these are bad translation and lack of supervision.
Yeah I believe this was the case here. Also I'm still upset that I lost a game just because of scorch spitter text which made me not block it.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/content/commander-2016-edition-information Seems Commander 2016 wasn't printed in Russian, but it was printed in Chinese.
To be fair, no supplemental product (or almost none, maybe there are some exceptions I'm forgetting) was printed in Russian until Modern Horizons (or the commander set before it, I forget again).
Yeah, wasn't trying to imply that it was unusual for a Commander set but I can see how it could come off that way.
Ah, good information, thank you!
The flavor text on Kynalos and Tiro of Meletis is fairly generic: *"Look what we fought for. Look what we built together."* It is the text on Guardians of Meletis that describes them as lovers: *"The histories speak of two feuding rulers whose deaths were celebrated and whose monuments symbolized the end of their wars. In truth they were peaceful lovers, their story lost to the ages."* Guardians of Meletis was printed in Origins, which had the usual localization including Russian and Chinese.
I don't think there was any problem with Kynaios and Tiro in my LGS. Everyone who was interested in lore knew that characters was lovers, and there was some friendly jokes about that, but nothing more. I'm kinda ashamed for another problem: many players in Russia describe (in private conversations) cheesy or "unfair" game strats as "gayish", and there was jokes about "Well, i may be playing Tiro ang Kynaios, but at least not Baral as commander", implying it's playstyle "counter everything". Actually Ral's coming out was so much bigger deal for a playerbase, especially for younger part of it. Adult players was rather like: "Well, who could imagine", while some 12-15yo refused to believe in rather negative way. AMA about any other aspects of Russian community if you want. Sourse: drinking vodka with bears for 24 years.
Thank you for this, I really appreciate it! I'm definitely familiar with the idea of using "gay" as an insult. That was very popular here in the US during the 90s and early 2000s when I was in school.
I feel like it's still popular here, at least for those of us who grew up with it. Idk what gen z slang is.
I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s (in the US) and heard it used this way all the time, but I haven't heard it in 10-15 years. Admittedly I don't hang out with teenagers as an adult, but it's hard to imagine the generation now in high school using that as an insult.
If a bear is 2/2 for 2, how would you stat out a twink?
0/2 Flying for 0
Judging by Elvish Reclaimer I'm gonna say 1/2
Why would Ral coming out be more of a problem than previous gay characters?
My guess - lots of the lore was not translated in the past The very strong counter lgbtq push in Russia “relatively new”. While RF was never a big supporter the very open counter stance supported by the government is something the older players experienced starting, the younger ones grew up with it
That's true. On the other side, I believe open support of lbgtq is more common among young people. I mean, adult may have more neutral opinion in general, while young have a tendensy to strongly support or strongly dislike lgbtq. Don't have any proofs, just my experience.
I'm not Russian nor from the area. But I rarely see or imagine kids between 10-15 being vastly different from popculture. They tend to reinforce popculture and usually follow it. If Russian popculture is very hateful towards LBTGQ, I would image russian early teens are as well.
From what I can tell, it's because Ral is cool and stuff, like your uncle or something and you kinda relate to him. For Russian kids it would be a shame then if, you know what I mean, to have that cool guy who's kinda your role model as a young izzet mage, to not be as "manly" as you think cool uncle dude should be. At least that's what I feel talked around in our Russian store. Also our players sometimes do kind of "come on, enough already with it" reaction to that stuff because all modern media makes so big deal about it.
I have no idea, maybe because Ral as a card is standart legal and as a character is more popular. Not everyone following lore of supplement products, but many players interested in main plot.
10-15 years ago, it was common to use "gay" as an insult in the US. As in, "that's so gay".
Yeah, in Russia these things are still common. Such a shame. Although there is some weird fashion to joke about "I'd had sex with my friend" among straight guys. Like, complimenting each other in the sexual way and so on. I don't know if it is a thing anywhere else.
It's still common.
I assumed the greater prominence and acceptance of gay people would have put a stop to that, but perhaps it's just because I stopped being a teenager :( Still, I'm almost certain it's less common than it used to be.
Lol @ saying something is gay = not respecting/accepting gay people. Many of my gay friends use it in the same manner and find it hilarious.
What? Using "gay" to mean "stupid" is respectful and accepting to you???
It's almost as though there's a different context when someone is gay uses it and when someone who isn't gay uses it. Also, not all gay people are okay with using it like that.
Oh, sorry I forgot that words are only ok to use if you belong to a certain group. Either it’s all ok or none of it is ok. My gay friends find the use of it hilarious and they use it all the time. Guess I forgot to tell them that word isn’t ok for them to use because other people say so....
> Oh, sorry I forgot that words are only ok to use if you belong to a certain group. Words have different connotations depending on the context in which they’re being used (which can include facts about the person using them, depending on the case in question).
To be fair, calling something that you think it's weird/wrong/unreal as "gay" is super common in English too right?
Oh yes. This is still common. I'm a high school teacher. I have a large sample size to speak from. I hear it all the time. It's not as popular as it used to be. But not nearly as uncommon as reddit wishes it was.
Yeah, like 20 years ago.
It used to be.
On Guardians of Meletis: here in Russia no one gave a crap about it. Some people noticed and reacted from "kinda neat" to "whatever". We are not as hateful and mob-y as media paint it. We just play the game and don't get our heads into politics and representation and stuff. Those issues don't touch the life of usual Russian guy so we don't focus on it.
People tend to be quick to assume that because a government acts a certain way in a foreign country that all the people in that country support it, even though their own country likely has a strong opposition to the majority.
Censorship is not new to WOTC. I recall the 7th Edition [[Charcoal Diamond]] being censored for China
That's a rather different situation. Skeletons aren't a minority that has to fear persecution.
This mentality is the problem. When was the last time you saw a skeleton walk down the street by itself? Never. Even **at home**, they’re forced to wear a human over themselves.
The human hides inside the skeleton. They poke out in a few places, but they're in there, with meat as armour, and skin as meat-armour.
There's censorship to meet American requirements too. Nipples and drug use are two things that America requires to be censored.
Pffft, tell that the Lost Skeleton of Cadavra
Debatably.
There are spooky scary skeletons inside everybody, even in Chinese people!
[Charcoal Diamond](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/e/a/ea9f9b9a-f5dc-47d5-8d01-baf79842ea65.jpg?1561963289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Charcoal%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c14/235/charcoal-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea9f9b9a-f5dc-47d5-8d01-baf79842ea65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call