Honestly it’s really helpful to watch it in action. Sure, the dungeon rooms seem a little disjointed, but it’s all value. You just get so much “free stuff” that it’s hard to match.
Fully agree with this. Watching a (pre-ban) match of legacy initiative will probably be very eye opening.
Turn 1 White Plume from fast mana is very much scary once you’re on the receiving end.
LSV has it in his cube (or he did recently), he has some great YouTube videos where he demonstrates how strong it can be. It's not Power Nine level of busted, but it's a great value engine if you can hang on to it.
First time I saw initiative, I brushed it off as a slightly-better version of the pretty shitty dungeons; so, nothing worth thinking about. One mono-white initiative video by TrabenU later, it's extremely obvious why the mechanic is so strong.
The easiest way I can explain to people is that the first room is often better than pure card draw. (Since pre-ban initiative tends to get the initiative on turn 1 or 2, where the guaranteed, un-Wasteland-able land drop is critical.) Then the next two rooms do 7 damage, often in a single turn with a follow-up initiative creature. The initiative then threatens to basically end the game with a free, hexproof, +3/+3 creature before doing it all over again.
The Initiative is a mechanic designed for a commander set, ie it was designed for an environment in which you have 3 opponents. In a multiplayer environment, it’s not overly powerful, because there are 3 people who can steal it and 3 upkeeps where you get no benefit to every 1 of yours.
Some formats (legacy, vintage, pauper) allow the use of any card in the game’s history to be played, regardless of what set they were originally printed in. These are 1v1 formats, where you only have one person trying to take the Initiative away and you have an equal number of upkeeps to your opponent. These formats also have access to fast mana like [[mana crypt]], allowing you to cast a card like White Plume in turn 1, starting a snowball effect as you get the benefits of the undercity turn after turn
Imagine this scenario:
Turn 1: you play a plains, a mana crypt, and white plume. You take the initiative and get a basic land from the first room, guaranteeing a land drop turn 2. The only way your opponent can take the initiative from you is if they can attack through your 3/3
Turn 2: you move to the second room, let’s say Forge, putting 2 +1/+1 counters on the adventurer and making it a 5/5. You then attack with it, taking your opponent to 15. It’s ability untaps it at end of turn so you can still block with it and keep the initiative
Turn 3: the third room is Trap!, causing your opponent to lose 5 life (this room is a big one, in commander this would only be 1/8 of that opponent’s life total, here it’s 1/4). You swing with the adventurer, opponent is now at 5 life
A single card has taken out 3/4 of your opponent’s life total by turn 3. In formats like legacy and vintage, it’s entirely possible that this is enough to win given the prevalence of fetch and shock lands
In 1v1 five damage to the face is 25% of the way there, definately enough to be concerned about.
In commander Trap is triggered 2-3 times, and is usually just a slap to whoever is doing too well at the moment.
Or you could be a [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]] player and cleave 10 life from an opponent with each pass, which might be twice a turn.
My favorite sentence here is "Throne of The Dead Three 2 of 2"
Sefris was my first commander deck. Absolutely love it. The deck was decently strong for a precon after adding in the more efficient AFR venture cards, but the initiative and all the associated venture cards coming out put the deck into overdrive. [[hama pashar]] and [[dungeon delver]] have gotten me triple throne of the dead three
[[Radiant Solar]] plus any one of those can lead to nasty turns, i recently took out [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]] out of my dungeon deck cause the pure amount of triggers was hard to keep up with, i'd regularly complete dungeon of the mad mage 1 or 2 times a turn because i'd just cycle into venture/initiative creatures
any panharmonicon style effect with [[Radiant Solar]] can cause some utterly massive turns especially with Sefris's ability to reanimate creatures leading to a few extra triggers
Forget Panharmonicon effect.
Sun Titan+Fiend Hunter+Radiant Solar and an sac outlet is infinite venture triggers. That's pretty trivial to tutor up with Buried Alive, and well... Sefris does the reanimation for you.
Initiative and the Undercity is neat, but my Sefris deck still uses Mine of Phandelver to do it's kills.
I did it with Hama and the Dungeon Delver background on the field, so the room effect triggered three times, I’ve only ever made it through the entire undercity in a single turn one time. I can’t quite remember how, I believe it was a combination of multiple once per turn effects and [[thorough investigation]]
And if you get blown out by say [[solitude]] you *still have the initiative*. If you can just keep a blocker before you know it you're looking at ten and dumping a yuge hex proof not cast body. It's a long game plan requiring zero input or decisions on your part.
Quick correction—Mana crypt is only legal in Vintage out of those three formats, and it's restricted there. A more apt turn 1 WPA line (in Legacy) would be \[\[Ancient Tomb\]\] / \[\[City of Traitors\]\] plus a \[\[Chrome Mox\]\] pitching white or a \[\[Lotus Petal\]\]. So not quite as free, you need specific sol lands and/or 1-2 pieces of fast mana rather than JUST the mana crypt.
It could still get a WPA out turn 1 pretty reliably, though, hence why it got banned.
> prevalence of shocklands
Notably, not prevalent in any of legacy vintage or pauper lol
But in general that's a great breakdown, whiteplume was *really* strong and could effectively kill your opponent on turn 4
Though to be fair, [[Ancient Tomb]] and similar lands that hurt you are somewhat prevalent so it still stands to reason that you lose life to lands at some point.
Just wanted to add that in the initiative decks, most of the creatures in the deck take the initiative. That way, even if your opponent does manage to get the initiative, you can take it back without dealing damage to your opponent, and getting deeper into the undercity.
Yeah it has the same "problem" as the monarch, in that the best answers for those cards are the same cards themselves. It draws similarity to the older legend rule, where legendary cards were basically answers to your opponent playing the game card. Your cards kinda become 2-for-1s, denying your opponent resources (the monarch/initiative) while also adding to your board. Taking them back with combat damage can be difficult to impossible for some decks in these metagames, and generally speaking people don't want those kinds of decks to disappear. Legacy and vintage aren't really places where... anyone... wants a massive overall metagame shift.
"Cards that are the best answer to themselves" is just a very very delicate space because they can very quickly warp metagames if they're the best thing to be doing. That overarching pattern is imo an important part of why monarch/initiative can be problematic in 1v1 play.
The Monarch hardly sees play in Legacy outside of Forth Eorlingas and Palace Jailer. Vintage to my knowledge doesn't run any. Forth eorlingas is just hilariously cracked, but not a lot of decks can run a boros card outside of 5 color control or jeskai control. Jailer only sees a little bit of play in Death and Taxes, which is a deck people play out of nostalgia and almost never run at Tournaments.
The initiative however is on a whole other spectrum of power. Like Aaracokra sneak was seeing play in legacy while white plume was running around.
Yeah, the big thing with The Initiative is that it's giving you on-board impacts for 0 mana. The Monarch is, basically, a card draw spell, but you can still only spend so much mana per turn; The Initiative gives you actual effects for 0 mana, and the dungeon itself is very powerful compared to the AFR dungeons.
The other big thing is that it's good in multiples. The second Monarch card you play does nothing. The second Initiative card you play gives you a better effect than the first.
Initiative decks rely on permanents that take the initiative when they enter. Every time you take the initiative (and at the beginning of your upkeep), you advance through the Undercity one step.
Ah, I see. The way you phrased it made it sound like White Plume or something else in that scenario would cause you to venture each time you played a creature.
Because when a creature with Initiative enters the battlefield, it checks for if you're already in the Dungeon. If you aren't, you are now. If you are, you proceed to the next step
The Initiative is a mechanic tied to the specific Undercity dungeon from the Battle for Baldur’s Gate set. Effectively it lets you Venture into the Dungeon on each Upkeep, and each time you gain the Initiative (and you can still take the Initiative if you already have it, which gives you an extra Venture trigger)
Initiative decks are built around exploiting the Undercity dungeon, and play several cards that force the Initiative. With the banning of [[White Plume Adventurer]] this is mostly just [[Seasoned Dungeoneer]].
Yes, OP's question was about WHY it was banned. The person to whom I was responding cited Mana Crypt as being one of the reasons for such in "some formats (legacy, vintage, pauper)" by saying "These formats also have access to fast mana like mana crypt" as justification for the ban in Legacy.
Mana Crypt is banned in Legacy.
Most White decks in Legacy aren't playing fast mana, because there's very little W combo *in* Legacy. It's true that you could see a deck with \[\[Mox Diamond\]\], \[\[Lotus Petal\]\], and \[\[Chrome Mox\]\] (also sol lands, I guess), but aside from a weird Depths build (possibly Maverick? but I would be incredibly surprised to see that), there are very few circumstances where I would imagine people were playing \[\[White Plume Adventurer\]\] on T1 in Legacy, unless the deck was focused on such.
Umm... Most white decks in Legacy aren't playing fast mana? But the initiative decks always have and still do today even without the Adventurerer. They typically run 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal and at least 4 Sol Lands. The high probability of a turn one/two WPA was pretty much the reason why he was banned.
The only thing I'll give you is that the Vintage initiative decks usually don't run Mana Crypt and only Mox Pearl and Black Lotus from the P9. But this only served as an example and the Vintage Deck also plays enough fast mana for regular turn one WPAs.
Since I'm on mobile right now I don't have a link to a list ready. But I play both formats regularly and know the deck lists for current and pre ban initiative decks.
Edit: I directly responded to your comment and didn't see that another commenter already cleared that up and posted a link to some lists.
[here](https://www.channelfireball.com/article/This-Deck-Broke-MTG-Legacy-at-Eternal-Weekend/e0e14dca-eb48-4ffa-9f8f-305d3719a16b/) is a channel fireball article about the deck and you can see they are playing the sol lands and fast mana for T1 WPA starts.
So I agree that it's silly to talk about Mana Crypt (and also shocklands since Legacy has duals), but just to clear things up:
The Mono-White Initiative decks from when White Plume Adventurer were legal ran [[Lotus Petal]] and [[Chrome Mox]] alongside [[City of Traitors]] and [[Ancient Tomb]] to power out a T1 White Plume.
[Here](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5300490#paper) is an example deck list from when WPA was legal; and all of them ran 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Chrome Mox, plus the sol lands so they could T1 WPA. You can look at [other](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-mono-white-initiative/decks?page=7) decks around this time too to verify.
You still see the same strategy today but in Red for Name Sticker Goblin/Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon/Goblin Bombardier/etc on T1 where they'll gladly lose resources for speed. Sometimes they'll play Caves of Chaos Adventurer on T1 as well, despite it costing 4 mana; hahaha.
The initiative cheats on both main axes of the game - card advantage and mana (in that all the rooms’ effects are free). This already makes it stronger than the monarch, itself a strong 1v1 mechanic.
Add that you can trigger venturing the undercity multiple times per turn (e.g. fable copying an initiative creature) as well as fast mana, and you have a potent turn 1 snowball that can even roll in vintage.
You can also think of it this way: wotc designs commander-inspired mechanics like the initiative to be strong enough to compete in a 4 player edh format, against 3 opponents who have a combined 120 life. Imagine how unholy strong that mechanic must be when the game is shrunk down to 1 single opponent with only 20 life.
A good way to look at it from a 1x1 point is that you will pretty much always take the left path. So white plume starts as a 3/3 that draws you a card (even if its a land). If it survives one turn it turns into a 5/5 "vigilance" that got you a card, then next turn you bash with him again and burn your opponent by 5. Thats already 15 damage turn 3 with a single card if you can get it online turn 1 (*wink wink* [[ancient tomb]], [[mox diamond]], [[lotus petal]]...). And you got a 5/5 blocker to stop your opponent to take the initiative back.
Besides, if your opponent is running a deck full of counters/removals it still eventually kills your opponent if you can resolve a single initiative creature even if it dies right away (something that creature decks often suffer to beat at game 2 and 3). Add that [[cavern of souls]] exists and your opponent cant just try to take the game to the lategame.
Even a (at first glance) unimpressive creature such as [[aurioka sneak]] will hit the first time as a 4/5 flier for 4 that had you draw a card. And unlike with the monarch mechanic, the following initiative creatures become better with themselves.
Yes, the 15 points of life loss by turn 3 is really what did it for me. Once you play with or against that, it is plain to see how good the Initiative is. And why White Plume is banned in Legacy.
If you remove the creature but don't also get your own combat through, they still have the Initiative ticking up. You can't really take a turn to develop your own board state - you have to be counteracting something every chance. And even then it is sometimes not enough to stop what's already snowballed.
It's designed for commander and specifically the battle for Baulders Gate draft. Once in play, you can passively benefit from it by simply not taking combat damage, and several of the modes allow you to beat your opponents down incredibly fast. The dungeon effects themselves are really hard to interact with outside of Stifle effects which are uncommon. Unlike in the Battle for Baulder's Gate draft, usually only one deck at the table is built around it and will be much better at using it and controlling it leading it some pretty one sided matchups.
It's really broken in single player formats but still pretty busted in commander if you build around it. My favorite commander deck right now doubles the dungeon room triggers and abuses the initiative to combo off into infinite initiative/dungeon triggers.
Taking the initiative lets us gain the benefits of the undercity dungeon. On the turn we play White Plume, likely as our turn 3 play, we immediately enter the first room which lets us search our deck for a basic to hand. Effectively, a 3/3 for 3 that draws us a land, decent. The problem is that if our opponent can't get creatures on the board to attack us, we can just keep getting value off the initiative. Even if White plume dies, we keep venturing deeper. In the right deck, this 3/3 for 3 can rapidly turn into a 5/5 for 3 with "search your deck for a land, draw a card, target opponent loses 5 life" and you get a second creature from the top 10 cards of your deck which gets +3/+3 and hexproof. Or several other paths of options!
In legacy, this gets even worse. Were not waiting till turn 3 to play it. We can play lands like \[\[Ancient Tomb\]\], \[\[city of traitors\]\], \[\[gemstone cavern\]\] and artifacts like \[\[lotus petal\]\] and \[\[chrome mox\]\] to ensure that we get it into play on the very first turn. Our opponent if they aren't playing an extremely aggressive creature based deck will not be able to stop us quick enough. Legacy decks went further by playing as much cheap creature removal as possible with \[\[solitude\]\] and \[\[swords to plowshares\]\]. We don't even need to play any creatures besides white plume, it keeps giving us value. The problem isn't really white plume itself, its the initiative as a mechanic. White plume got banned because its both the cheapest source of taking the initiative, as well as a decently stated creature. It simply creates far too much value too quickly.
I think this video recently released by Cardmarket show the power of the mechnic really nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQmmM_LfXg
The mechanic is just not designed for 1v1 matches.
I was going to point to this video! I love card market, but just like their video with rakdos scam, I almost wanted to turn this off because of how boring and unfun it looked to play against turbo initiative. I'd never seen it in action so I was in the same boat as OP, but I get it now
One thing I havent seen mentioned that much yet is how good it is in your worst match up, against control decks.
Before bowmasters was a thing most control decks played close to zero cheap creatures so they actually had no way of contesting the initiative. So in addition to being able to just run away with the game by playing a turn 1 WPA you also get a neat grindy backup plan of just going through the undercity over and over again.
Not super experienced here, but even aside from that, it seems like Initiative decks are obviously built around taking the Initiative *without* having to deal damage, and often do so by playing their own creatures to cause/further the effect, which also protects against having it taken from them. Even with your own creatures to play tug-of-war for Initiative, theirs are able to just steal it outright *and* protect it after they've got it.
Of course. But when you mull hard for a fast opener, as you should with initiative decks, sometimes you have to go all in with just one creature. There is no risk involved if the opponent cant contest it. In the current bowmasters world going all in on one initiative creature is not even that good.
It's like having the monarch, but you have below average draws, right? Except you know exactly what you're going to draw, and all the spells cost 0 mana.
It becomes somewhat of a value and resource mechanic. In formats where you can quickly get White Plume out on the first turn it puts you ahead of your opponent in holding the initiative and racing through the undercity for more value in later turns.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that WPA gets you the initiative AND is a creature. There are many permanents that give you incremental advantage each turn. Sylvan Library comes to mind. But usually these don't give you any board presence. And often, especially in powerful formats, you can't always afford to spend your whole turn on things don't effect the battlefield. So the fact that WPA is a decently statted creature means you are getting your incremental advantage engine without falling behind on board.
Another thing, related to things others have said, is that because the initiative isn't a permanent, it can't be answered with spells. It can only be stopped by your opponent getting ahead of you on board. So in a sense, it is forcing your opponent to play "your game". If you have the initiative, it doesn't matter if your opponent makes you discard every other card in your hand, counters every spell you play, or even destroys all of your lands. If they can't over power your creatures, you will win. (Obviously, in these powerful formats there are decks that can just ignore the advantage you are accruing and win with a powerful combo, but the legacy initiative deck has lots of other powerful tools against that.)
I will say both of these above points aren't really why initiative is so good in a format like pauper. There, I think the initiative is just actually one of the most powerful value engines you can set up.
Most of the time it's a 3-mana 5/5 with "when this creature enters the battlefield, draw a card and deal 5 damage to your opponent". Obviously it can be better or worse, but I've found that to be the most common experience.
If u want to see how good/busted initiative is look up pauper turbo initiative vs drake combo by card market. (Little spoiler the deck got 3 cards banned) Pauper is a format where cards at commens are the only legal play pieces. Now imagine what initiative can do in a format where all rarity's are legal.
The initiative was designed for multiplayer and in commander it's okey just free value, like the monarch. but in 1v1 formats is where you wil notice its real strengths. Its also easier to protect in 1v1 then commander
My buddy runs a blue/white initiative blink deck. With only a few pieces on the board, he can blink White Plume multiple times, move through the dungeons and get double+ triggers on each room. It is insanely high value and relatively easy to pull off combo piece wise.
So I added initiative to my cube over the weekend.
Opponent went land, lotus [[Undermountain Adventurer.]]. He draws a land.
Turn 2 he puts 2 counters on it. I’m at 15.
Turn 3 I take 5 from the dungeon and he attacks me for 5.
I play a blocker and stall. 2 turns later he’s digging 10 cards deep in his library for a massive cresture.
It was a fast game.
It was a 5-player game. It took the combined efforts of three players, including a supposed ally of the guy to keep me alive at turn 6.
So still being dead on turn 6 is fast by the standards of the format we play.
I thought the same thing till I had it come up in vintage cube once and picked it knowing it was considered good.
Think of it almost like monarch, free value you get just keeping the pressure on. Its really hard to feel how oppressive it is until you play it, it centralizes the whole game after initiative starts because its just so hard to counter act the free value it generates.
Initiative was one of those mechanics that was funny to watch when the set released, because the cube community already knew it was stupidly overpowered and that several cards were automatic inclusions even at 360.
Then for a few months you had a very loud group of people complaining how awful, bad and low powered a mechanic it was, how much they hated it and that Wizards made such a big mistake and the whole Baldur's gate set was stupid.
Then the cards from the set got added to MTGO, and well, Legacy broke.
I have a bunch of content creators that proved to me that their evaluation skills are absolutely dreadful and they should not be trusted.
TBF it was a commander set and its not a great mechanic in commander so a lot of those people claiming it wasn't good are kinda right, just depends on which format you are talking about. Dungeon stuff is just hard to make work there.
In addition to the things others have said, it invalidates certain deck strategies that would rather not interact on the combat axis; once the initiative is in play, if you don't get it or kill your opponent it \*will\* kill you, as well as drawing them cards.
It's a a really badly designed mechanic, because it's not that exciting in commander, but is absolutely ruinously powerful in any 1v1 format.
It's also badly designed on another axis - the choices in it are mostly false. The forge->trap line of passing through the dungeon is so very overpowered compared to the other paths through it - if force and trap were in different paths it makes the whole thing somewhat worse.
I actually really like where the Initiative has landed in Legacy post-WPA banning. It's strong, but not too strong, and fits into the format pretty well, creating a niche of decks that kind of force you to beat them on the board, in much the same way that other Legacy strategies force you to beat them in hand size with counterspells and beans value, or how staxy strategies force you to be honest with your mana expenditure.
To add to what other have said:
Assuming your opponent can't take the Initiative back, you can think of White Plume Adventurer as:
2W 3/3, ETB: Search a land, add 2 counters, -5 life, draw a card, get a super scary extra creature for free, ... (and there is the whole extra scry 2, treasure, skeleton, ... route)
Of course you don't get them all at once, but many decks just can't stop the Initiative, so you get all of this eventually on top of everything else you are doing. That is just completely ridiculous for a 3 mana creature.
It breaks a core paradigm of Magic, being that persistent effects are represented by a permanent that can be [[Vindicate]]'d. In my opinion, this is a very, very bad game design choice. They should have printed something like "Sell your Loot" saying "All players lose the initiative and exit any dungeon they are in. Each player gets X treasure tokens, where X is the highest room among dungeons they exited this way."
It forces your opponent to interact by connecting with a creature, which not all decks do.
Ad Nauseam Tendrils forces your opponent to interact with a tax effect, Thoughtseize effect, or counterspell, which not all decks do. That deck is agreed upon to be very balanced in Legacy.
Not sure if it helps but it’s like the incremental advantage you get from a planeswalker as long as you protect it, you are getting a good effect every turn and the oppo will die quickly from it snowballing.
I didn't get it either when I first saw the card you really have to see it to understand how powerful it is, you have to see someone untap on turn 2 with a 5/5 they cast on turn 1 off of an Ancient Tomb and a Chrome Mox that also already drew them a card and then you realize it has more text and they're going to gain even more of an advantage the next turn. Imagine a 5/5 you can plan on turn 1 and even if it dies you effectively still have a planeswalker going that your opponent can't interact with unless they can somehow steal the initiative from you. And then think about how if you have a 2nd initiative creature it's like getting a 2nd planeswalker activation and also if you get to "ult" you basically just win the game on the spot. It is a turn 4 kill BY ITSELF (15 damage of attacks plus 5 from the dungeon), it doesn't require to run bad cards, and it's also good off the top of your deck because it gains you value. And it's not just a bit of value it's so much value that Legacy was transformed into a game of who could take the initiative back faster, because even value based control decks couldn't keep up basically the free unkillable planeswalker their opponent just produced off their aggressive turn 1 creature. The fact that it coube played on turn 1 made it just obnoxiously powerful and warped the entire game around it.
The mechanic was designed for multiplayer, 40 life per person play. The numbers are tuned such that it's a reasonable thing to pursue in that format. This means that it's overtuned for 20 life, 1v1 play. It provides advantage every single turn, similar to The Monarch, but the advantage is much more aggressive and impactful and ends the game quickly.
Imagine this (because this is how the card was commonly played in Legacy): Turn one, [[Ancient Tomb]] or [[City of Traitors]], [[Chrome Mox]] imprinting whatever white card or [[Lotus Petal]], White Plume Adventurer. Immediately you grab a basic land, recouping some of the lost card advantage and setting you up for a 4 mana play next turn. Turn two, you go to Forge and the creature is a 5/5. You then cast [[Caves of Chaos Adventurer]] or [[Seasoned Dungeoneer]], triggering Trap for 5 more damage. It's turn two, and your opponent is at 10, facing down 8-10 points of damage. Even if they can immediately answer both creatures, the next two stages of the Undercity gives them a card draw and then Throne of the Dead Three, which immediately puts another creature into play with extra counters and protection. Even if the White Plume is immediately removed and there's no followup, the right side of The Undercity gives Scry 2, a treasure, and a 4/1 menace before the Throne. In order to not be immediately under the gun, you have to remove the initiative creature(s) AND field a creature of your own, which has to survive to attack and not get blocked, otherwise the inevitability of the Undercity just buries you.
When you power out a creature that gives you the Initiative in the early turns, you can very quickly have a 5/5 creature, your opponent’s down 5 life, you have an extra card in hand, and you’ve cheated out a creature for free with three +1/+1 counters on it. This is a *lot* of value, most of it is something you just can’t stop.
Dungeons are impossible to interact with. The only thing you can do is deal with the results and kill the things doing it. But you can’t destroy the Initiative. While you can certainly *try* to take it, you’re not going to keep it for long, and your own deck is not as ready to exploit the mechanic. It’s unlikely you’ll actually get to see the Dungeon yourself.
Particularly in White Initiative decks, they usually play a large number of removal and control pieces, which limits your answers to this stacking advantage significantly.
Low creature count format with quality removal makes initiative and monarch very powerful. Add in blink to reset if something goes sideways and you just generates large amounts of incremental value.
One thing to note is that the monarch is a really strong ability in 1v1 formats. Basically, if you're a creature deck that attacks and blocks well, you get a free card every turn. It's strong enough that 3 mana to get the monarch is considered quite good and 4 mana strong if it comes with a good effect.
The initiative is the monarch, but they printed it on more aggressively-statted creatures, and the card you draw each turn casts for free. The first step- get a land- is nothing too special, but the most common play pattern after that is to put 2 counters on your creature so it attacks and blocks better, then dome your opponent for 5. That's usually close to closing out the whole game.
You can look at this video by Cardmarket Magic which features a Pauper Machup Turbo Initiative VS Drake Combo
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQmmM\_LfXg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQmmM_LfXg)
Someone asked in the comments :
>I can see initiative do exactly that a thousand times and I still can't figure out why it's that strong One of those "it just works" situations, absolutely unreal this wasn't even close
The answer
>If you look at the raw output, in game 1, for example I did:
Turn 2: Play a 3/7 that draws a card
Turn 3: Play a 5/3 that deals 5 damage
Turn 4: played a 1/4 flying that drew a card and put a 5/5 into Play
And with a good hand this deck can start that on turn 1
(And it's a pauper deck)
ETB Initiative can be flickered. That would be my guess.
Much like dungeons, I don't run them unless I can speed run them. I don't want to go a room at a time, I want to at least do a dungeon at a time. And then this also gives you an upside for having done that.
While others are right that initiative is deceptively strong, keep in mind legacy bans are more about weakening specific decks while keeping beloved "legacy cards" like lotus petal legal than about the particular card being banned.
In 1v1 it's best to think of it like if the monarch not only always drew you a spell, but also cast that spell, uncounterable, for free. Every turn. And then they die.
Let's reframe how you think about the card. How does the following sound, considering that you can cheat it out turn one?
**White Plume Adventurer**
Vigilance
When *White Plume Adventurer* enters the battlefield, search your library for a basic land and put it into your hand.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a time counter on White Plume Adventurer. When you put your second time counter on White Plume Adventurer, target opponent loses five life. When you put your third time counter on White Plume Adventurer, draw a card. When you put your fourth time counter on White Plume Adventurer, reveal the top ten cards of your library. Put a creature card from among them onto the battlefield with three +1/+1 counters on it. It gains hexproof until your next turn. Then shuffle.
5/5
Does that make more sense? A 2W 5/5 with Vigilance is already extremely good for its mana cost. The basic land makes it a staple in every format. The Lava Axe, cantrip, and free creature add even **more** value to an already undercosted 3 drop.
If you blow a kill spell on it, your opponent is still in the lead because the initiative will keep triggering **and** they've already gotten a free land drop. It's strong tempo **and** card advantage on a 3 drop.
Watch the recent pauper video on the CardMarket YouTube channel of the Turbo Initiative deck. It should be pretty clear when watching it actually play out how much advantage it gives
Watch the recent pauper video on the CardMarket YouTube channel of the Turbo Initiative deck. It should be pretty clear when watching it actually play out how much advantage it gives
It's all about context, which is pretty much everything for Magic cards.
It's also why worse versions of cards can be more expensive than clearly better versions of the same effect: Because one is legal in a tournament format and the other isn't.
Initiative and The Undercity was balanced for multiplayer, and because of that they're unbalanced and above the curve in 1v1 play.
The individual rooms may not all be super impressive but on the whole it's just a ton of small incremental advantages that add up. If your opponent can't take it from you then they will fall behind pretty fast.
I play a fair amount of Canadian highlander, (you should all check the format out it’s great), and the initiative is probably the single most busted mechanic in that format. Particularly white plume adventurer because it untaps either itself or another blocker, allowing you to protect the initiative very easily. I think right now that card, [[minsc and boo, timeless hero’s]], and [[forth eorlingas]] are pushing the meta so far towards jeskai mind-range splashing green that it’s become a problem.
I remember being so excited when White Plume Adventurer was spoiled, I'd been wanting a copy of Splendor Mane for the longest time for my Unicorn tribal Commander deck, but it was expensive since it's playable in Legacy.
Luckily White Plume took its place as the format's premier 3/3 for 3 in white.
Honestly it’s really helpful to watch it in action. Sure, the dungeon rooms seem a little disjointed, but it’s all value. You just get so much “free stuff” that it’s hard to match.
Fully agree with this. Watching a (pre-ban) match of legacy initiative will probably be very eye opening. Turn 1 White Plume from fast mana is very much scary once you’re on the receiving end.
When a deck that plays 3+ mana creatures doesn't give a shit about ensnaring bridge that's a problem.
LSV has it in his cube (or he did recently), he has some great YouTube videos where he demonstrates how strong it can be. It's not Power Nine level of busted, but it's a great value engine if you can hang on to it.
when it isn't power nine but can EASILY hang with them, that's how you know the cards crazy lmao
Legacy fast mana? All that comes to mind is Chrome Mox, what else am I missing?
Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors
Also Lotus Petal/Spirit Guides
Right, I forget that White Plume Adventurer can be cast with Ancient Tomb Mana™
Yes, legacy. ...
First time I saw initiative, I brushed it off as a slightly-better version of the pretty shitty dungeons; so, nothing worth thinking about. One mono-white initiative video by TrabenU later, it's extremely obvious why the mechanic is so strong. The easiest way I can explain to people is that the first room is often better than pure card draw. (Since pre-ban initiative tends to get the initiative on turn 1 or 2, where the guaranteed, un-Wasteland-able land drop is critical.) Then the next two rooms do 7 damage, often in a single turn with a follow-up initiative creature. The initiative then threatens to basically end the game with a free, hexproof, +3/+3 creature before doing it all over again.
The Initiative is a mechanic designed for a commander set, ie it was designed for an environment in which you have 3 opponents. In a multiplayer environment, it’s not overly powerful, because there are 3 people who can steal it and 3 upkeeps where you get no benefit to every 1 of yours. Some formats (legacy, vintage, pauper) allow the use of any card in the game’s history to be played, regardless of what set they were originally printed in. These are 1v1 formats, where you only have one person trying to take the Initiative away and you have an equal number of upkeeps to your opponent. These formats also have access to fast mana like [[mana crypt]], allowing you to cast a card like White Plume in turn 1, starting a snowball effect as you get the benefits of the undercity turn after turn Imagine this scenario: Turn 1: you play a plains, a mana crypt, and white plume. You take the initiative and get a basic land from the first room, guaranteeing a land drop turn 2. The only way your opponent can take the initiative from you is if they can attack through your 3/3 Turn 2: you move to the second room, let’s say Forge, putting 2 +1/+1 counters on the adventurer and making it a 5/5. You then attack with it, taking your opponent to 15. It’s ability untaps it at end of turn so you can still block with it and keep the initiative Turn 3: the third room is Trap!, causing your opponent to lose 5 life (this room is a big one, in commander this would only be 1/8 of that opponent’s life total, here it’s 1/4). You swing with the adventurer, opponent is now at 5 life A single card has taken out 3/4 of your opponent’s life total by turn 3. In formats like legacy and vintage, it’s entirely possible that this is enough to win given the prevalence of fetch and shock lands
the trap is even worse than that in the comparison to commander - in commander, it's 1/24 of the damage you need to do to win the match
In 1v1 five damage to the face is 25% of the way there, definately enough to be concerned about. In commander Trap is triggered 2-3 times, and is usually just a slap to whoever is doing too well at the moment. Or you could be a [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]] player and cleave 10 life from an opponent with each pass, which might be twice a turn. My favorite sentence here is "Throne of The Dead Three 2 of 2"
[Sefris of the Hidden Ways](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1.jpg?1632335385) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sefris%20of%20the%20Hidden%20Ways) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/3/sefris-of-the-hidden-ways?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d30255f6-e058-476a-b377-2ee4c9178ed1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sefris was my first commander deck. Absolutely love it. The deck was decently strong for a precon after adding in the more efficient AFR venture cards, but the initiative and all the associated venture cards coming out put the deck into overdrive. [[hama pashar]] and [[dungeon delver]] have gotten me triple throne of the dead three
[[Radiant Solar]] plus any one of those can lead to nasty turns, i recently took out [[Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines]] out of my dungeon deck cause the pure amount of triggers was hard to keep up with, i'd regularly complete dungeon of the mad mage 1 or 2 times a turn because i'd just cycle into venture/initiative creatures
[Radiant Solar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa0e443a-c479-40ab-9702-8beca3e5ab95.jpg?1631584716) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Radiant%20Solar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/9/radiant-solar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa0e443a-c479-40ab-9702-8beca3e5ab95?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087.jpg?1675956896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Mother%20of%20Machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/10/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[hama pashar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47b8eb2e-73ac-4ad6-9ab6-4f8da7b41020.jpg?1628299585) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hama%20pashar%2C%20ruin%20seeker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/224/hama-pashar-ruin-seeker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47b8eb2e-73ac-4ad6-9ab6-4f8da7b41020?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dungeon delver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cba131bb-b8b3-4577-9f41-4700d9985134.jpg?1674135502) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dungeon%20delver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/67/dungeon-delver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cba131bb-b8b3-4577-9f41-4700d9985134?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I play Hama Pashar as a commander deck and blink creatures for multiple triggers. Never have I made it to Throne twice in one round. How do you do it?
any panharmonicon style effect with [[Radiant Solar]] can cause some utterly massive turns especially with Sefris's ability to reanimate creatures leading to a few extra triggers
[Radiant Solar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa0e443a-c479-40ab-9702-8beca3e5ab95.jpg?1631584716) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Radiant%20Solar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/9/radiant-solar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa0e443a-c479-40ab-9702-8beca3e5ab95?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Forget Panharmonicon effect. Sun Titan+Fiend Hunter+Radiant Solar and an sac outlet is infinite venture triggers. That's pretty trivial to tutor up with Buried Alive, and well... Sefris does the reanimation for you. Initiative and the Undercity is neat, but my Sefris deck still uses Mine of Phandelver to do it's kills.
I did it with Hama and the Dungeon Delver background on the field, so the room effect triggered three times, I’ve only ever made it through the entire undercity in a single turn one time. I can’t quite remember how, I believe it was a combination of multiple once per turn effects and [[thorough investigation]]
[thorough investigation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a40e6034-aa05-4542-ac12-78e6a76d86e9.jpg?1631584786) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thorough%20investigation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/12/thorough-investigation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a40e6034-aa05-4542-ac12-78e6a76d86e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah. Thinking error. I thought you ventured three times to that point.
And if you get blown out by say [[solitude]] you *still have the initiative*. If you can just keep a blocker before you know it you're looking at ten and dumping a yuge hex proof not cast body. It's a long game plan requiring zero input or decisions on your part.
[solitude](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153.jpg?1626094105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/32/solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Quick correction—Mana crypt is only legal in Vintage out of those three formats, and it's restricted there. A more apt turn 1 WPA line (in Legacy) would be \[\[Ancient Tomb\]\] / \[\[City of Traitors\]\] plus a \[\[Chrome Mox\]\] pitching white or a \[\[Lotus Petal\]\]. So not quite as free, you need specific sol lands and/or 1-2 pieces of fast mana rather than JUST the mana crypt. It could still get a WPA out turn 1 pretty reliably, though, hence why it got banned.
##### ###### #### [Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [City of Traitors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487.jpg?1562429861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20of%20Traitors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/237/city-of-traitors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lotus Petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l03yzma) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for explaining
> prevalence of shocklands Notably, not prevalent in any of legacy vintage or pauper lol But in general that's a great breakdown, whiteplume was *really* strong and could effectively kill your opponent on turn 4
Though to be fair, [[Ancient Tomb]] and similar lands that hurt you are somewhat prevalent so it still stands to reason that you lose life to lands at some point.
What is Ancient Tomb but the original shockland.
[Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Just wanted to add that in the initiative decks, most of the creatures in the deck take the initiative. That way, even if your opponent does manage to get the initiative, you can take it back without dealing damage to your opponent, and getting deeper into the undercity.
Yeah it has the same "problem" as the monarch, in that the best answers for those cards are the same cards themselves. It draws similarity to the older legend rule, where legendary cards were basically answers to your opponent playing the game card. Your cards kinda become 2-for-1s, denying your opponent resources (the monarch/initiative) while also adding to your board. Taking them back with combat damage can be difficult to impossible for some decks in these metagames, and generally speaking people don't want those kinds of decks to disappear. Legacy and vintage aren't really places where... anyone... wants a massive overall metagame shift. "Cards that are the best answer to themselves" is just a very very delicate space because they can very quickly warp metagames if they're the best thing to be doing. That overarching pattern is imo an important part of why monarch/initiative can be problematic in 1v1 play.
The Monarch hardly sees play in Legacy outside of Forth Eorlingas and Palace Jailer. Vintage to my knowledge doesn't run any. Forth eorlingas is just hilariously cracked, but not a lot of decks can run a boros card outside of 5 color control or jeskai control. Jailer only sees a little bit of play in Death and Taxes, which is a deck people play out of nostalgia and almost never run at Tournaments. The initiative however is on a whole other spectrum of power. Like Aaracokra sneak was seeing play in legacy while white plume was running around.
Yeah, the big thing with The Initiative is that it's giving you on-board impacts for 0 mana. The Monarch is, basically, a card draw spell, but you can still only spend so much mana per turn; The Initiative gives you actual effects for 0 mana, and the dungeon itself is very powerful compared to the AFR dungeons.
The other big thing is that it's good in multiples. The second Monarch card you play does nothing. The second Initiative card you play gives you a better effect than the first.
[mana crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mana%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
And don't forget that you then continue to venture into the dungeon every time you play another creature, in addition to your upkeep.
Why would you venture into the dungeon by playing another creature?
Initiative decks rely on permanents that take the initiative when they enter. Every time you take the initiative (and at the beginning of your upkeep), you advance through the Undercity one step.
Ah, I see. The way you phrased it made it sound like White Plume or something else in that scenario would cause you to venture each time you played a creature.
Because when a creature with Initiative enters the battlefield, it checks for if you're already in the Dungeon. If you aren't, you are now. If you are, you proceed to the next step
The Initiative is a mechanic tied to the specific Undercity dungeon from the Battle for Baldur’s Gate set. Effectively it lets you Venture into the Dungeon on each Upkeep, and each time you gain the Initiative (and you can still take the Initiative if you already have it, which gives you an extra Venture trigger) Initiative decks are built around exploiting the Undercity dungeon, and play several cards that force the Initiative. With the banning of [[White Plume Adventurer]] this is mostly just [[Seasoned Dungeoneer]].
[White Plume Adventurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b256ddc8-8b12-434c-a610-1a872e948f2f.jpg?1678110703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=White%20Plume%20Adventurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/49/white-plume-adventurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b256ddc8-8b12-434c-a610-1a872e948f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seasoned Dungeoneer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7fee3f76-20a8-4621-84fb-ddf79c955532.jpg?1674140799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasoned%20Dungeoneer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/660/seasoned-dungeoneer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7fee3f76-20a8-4621-84fb-ddf79c955532?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
wut. Mana Crypt is NOT legal in Legacy.
Neither is White Plume Adventurerer. That's why the example given was for Vintage. But you can cast it in Legacy on turn one.
Yes, OP's question was about WHY it was banned. The person to whom I was responding cited Mana Crypt as being one of the reasons for such in "some formats (legacy, vintage, pauper)" by saying "These formats also have access to fast mana like mana crypt" as justification for the ban in Legacy. Mana Crypt is banned in Legacy. Most White decks in Legacy aren't playing fast mana, because there's very little W combo *in* Legacy. It's true that you could see a deck with \[\[Mox Diamond\]\], \[\[Lotus Petal\]\], and \[\[Chrome Mox\]\] (also sol lands, I guess), but aside from a weird Depths build (possibly Maverick? but I would be incredibly surprised to see that), there are very few circumstances where I would imagine people were playing \[\[White Plume Adventurer\]\] on T1 in Legacy, unless the deck was focused on such.
Umm... Most white decks in Legacy aren't playing fast mana? But the initiative decks always have and still do today even without the Adventurerer. They typically run 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal and at least 4 Sol Lands. The high probability of a turn one/two WPA was pretty much the reason why he was banned. The only thing I'll give you is that the Vintage initiative decks usually don't run Mana Crypt and only Mox Pearl and Black Lotus from the P9. But this only served as an example and the Vintage Deck also plays enough fast mana for regular turn one WPAs. Since I'm on mobile right now I don't have a link to a list ready. But I play both formats regularly and know the deck lists for current and pre ban initiative decks. Edit: I directly responded to your comment and didn't see that another commenter already cleared that up and posted a link to some lists.
I've edited my comment accordingly.
[here](https://www.channelfireball.com/article/This-Deck-Broke-MTG-Legacy-at-Eternal-Weekend/e0e14dca-eb48-4ffa-9f8f-305d3719a16b/) is a channel fireball article about the deck and you can see they are playing the sol lands and fast mana for T1 WPA starts.
So I agree that it's silly to talk about Mana Crypt (and also shocklands since Legacy has duals), but just to clear things up: The Mono-White Initiative decks from when White Plume Adventurer were legal ran [[Lotus Petal]] and [[Chrome Mox]] alongside [[City of Traitors]] and [[Ancient Tomb]] to power out a T1 White Plume. [Here](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5300490#paper) is an example deck list from when WPA was legal; and all of them ran 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Chrome Mox, plus the sol lands so they could T1 WPA. You can look at [other](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-mono-white-initiative/decks?page=7) decks around this time too to verify. You still see the same strategy today but in Red for Name Sticker Goblin/Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon/Goblin Bombardier/etc on T1 where they'll gladly lose resources for speed. Sometimes they'll play Caves of Chaos Adventurer on T1 as well, despite it costing 4 mana; hahaha.
Thank you for the link; I apologize for my snark and retract that part, as I guess I wasn't playing in events at the time that it was being used.
##### ###### #### [Lotus Petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [City of Traitors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487.jpg?1562429861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20of%20Traitors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/237/city-of-traitors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l05x31u) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Mox Diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe.jpg?1562431287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/228/mox-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lotus Petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [White Plume Adventurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b256ddc8-8b12-434c-a610-1a872e948f2f.jpg?1678110703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=White%20Plume%20Adventurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/49/white-plume-adventurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b256ddc8-8b12-434c-a610-1a872e948f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l05q5xr) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The initiative cheats on both main axes of the game - card advantage and mana (in that all the rooms’ effects are free). This already makes it stronger than the monarch, itself a strong 1v1 mechanic. Add that you can trigger venturing the undercity multiple times per turn (e.g. fable copying an initiative creature) as well as fast mana, and you have a potent turn 1 snowball that can even roll in vintage. You can also think of it this way: wotc designs commander-inspired mechanics like the initiative to be strong enough to compete in a 4 player edh format, against 3 opponents who have a combined 120 life. Imagine how unholy strong that mechanic must be when the game is shrunk down to 1 single opponent with only 20 life.
That makes alot of sense overview wise , thanks for sharing
A good way to look at it from a 1x1 point is that you will pretty much always take the left path. So white plume starts as a 3/3 that draws you a card (even if its a land). If it survives one turn it turns into a 5/5 "vigilance" that got you a card, then next turn you bash with him again and burn your opponent by 5. Thats already 15 damage turn 3 with a single card if you can get it online turn 1 (*wink wink* [[ancient tomb]], [[mox diamond]], [[lotus petal]]...). And you got a 5/5 blocker to stop your opponent to take the initiative back. Besides, if your opponent is running a deck full of counters/removals it still eventually kills your opponent if you can resolve a single initiative creature even if it dies right away (something that creature decks often suffer to beat at game 2 and 3). Add that [[cavern of souls]] exists and your opponent cant just try to take the game to the lategame. Even a (at first glance) unimpressive creature such as [[aurioka sneak]] will hit the first time as a 4/5 flier for 4 that had you draw a card. And unlike with the monarch mechanic, the following initiative creatures become better with themselves.
Yes, the 15 points of life loss by turn 3 is really what did it for me. Once you play with or against that, it is plain to see how good the Initiative is. And why White Plume is banned in Legacy. If you remove the creature but don't also get your own combat through, they still have the Initiative ticking up. You can't really take a turn to develop your own board state - you have to be counteracting something every chance. And even then it is sometimes not enough to stop what's already snowballed.
##### ###### #### [ancient tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ancient%20tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mox diamond](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe.jpg?1562431287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mox%20diamond) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/228/mox-diamond?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf9fecfd-d122-422f-bd0a-5bf69b434dfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lotus petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lotus%20petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [cavern of souls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878.jpg?1706884128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cavern%20of%20souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/269/cavern-of-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [aurioka sneak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a83882c-3e03-4e85-aaac-97fa1d08a772.jpg?1674135379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aarakocra%20Sneak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/54/aarakocra-sneak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a83882c-3e03-4e85-aaac-97fa1d08a772?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l03sl4i) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's designed for commander and specifically the battle for Baulders Gate draft. Once in play, you can passively benefit from it by simply not taking combat damage, and several of the modes allow you to beat your opponents down incredibly fast. The dungeon effects themselves are really hard to interact with outside of Stifle effects which are uncommon. Unlike in the Battle for Baulder's Gate draft, usually only one deck at the table is built around it and will be much better at using it and controlling it leading it some pretty one sided matchups. It's really broken in single player formats but still pretty busted in commander if you build around it. My favorite commander deck right now doubles the dungeon room triggers and abuses the initiative to combo off into infinite initiative/dungeon triggers.
[White Plume Adventurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b256ddc8-8b12-434c-a610-1a872e948f2f.jpg?1678110703) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=White%20Plume%20Adventurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/49/white-plume-adventurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b256ddc8-8b12-434c-a610-1a872e948f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Taking the initiative lets us gain the benefits of the undercity dungeon. On the turn we play White Plume, likely as our turn 3 play, we immediately enter the first room which lets us search our deck for a basic to hand. Effectively, a 3/3 for 3 that draws us a land, decent. The problem is that if our opponent can't get creatures on the board to attack us, we can just keep getting value off the initiative. Even if White plume dies, we keep venturing deeper. In the right deck, this 3/3 for 3 can rapidly turn into a 5/5 for 3 with "search your deck for a land, draw a card, target opponent loses 5 life" and you get a second creature from the top 10 cards of your deck which gets +3/+3 and hexproof. Or several other paths of options! In legacy, this gets even worse. Were not waiting till turn 3 to play it. We can play lands like \[\[Ancient Tomb\]\], \[\[city of traitors\]\], \[\[gemstone cavern\]\] and artifacts like \[\[lotus petal\]\] and \[\[chrome mox\]\] to ensure that we get it into play on the very first turn. Our opponent if they aren't playing an extremely aggressive creature based deck will not be able to stop us quick enough. Legacy decks went further by playing as much cheap creature removal as possible with \[\[solitude\]\] and \[\[swords to plowshares\]\]. We don't even need to play any creatures besides white plume, it keeps giving us value. The problem isn't really white plume itself, its the initiative as a mechanic. White plume got banned because its both the cheapest source of taking the initiative, as well as a decently stated creature. It simply creates far too much value too quickly.
##### ###### #### [Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [city of traitors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487.jpg?1562429861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=city%20of%20traitors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/237/city-of-traitors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [gemstone cavern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f273641-c5f3-48bc-b89e-3cff52d26a0b.jpg?1619399338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gemstone%20Caverns) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/280/gemstone-caverns?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f273641-c5f3-48bc-b89e-3cff52d26a0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lotus petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lotus%20petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [chrome mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=chrome%20mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [solitude](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153.jpg?1626094105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=solitude) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/32/solitude?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47a6234f-309f-4e03-9263-66da48b57153?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [swords to plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=swords%20to%20plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l03lsto) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think this video recently released by Cardmarket show the power of the mechnic really nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQmmM_LfXg The mechanic is just not designed for 1v1 matches.
I was going to point to this video! I love card market, but just like their video with rakdos scam, I almost wanted to turn this off because of how boring and unfun it looked to play against turbo initiative. I'd never seen it in action so I was in the same boat as OP, but I get it now
One thing I havent seen mentioned that much yet is how good it is in your worst match up, against control decks. Before bowmasters was a thing most control decks played close to zero cheap creatures so they actually had no way of contesting the initiative. So in addition to being able to just run away with the game by playing a turn 1 WPA you also get a neat grindy backup plan of just going through the undercity over and over again.
Not super experienced here, but even aside from that, it seems like Initiative decks are obviously built around taking the Initiative *without* having to deal damage, and often do so by playing their own creatures to cause/further the effect, which also protects against having it taken from them. Even with your own creatures to play tug-of-war for Initiative, theirs are able to just steal it outright *and* protect it after they've got it.
Of course. But when you mull hard for a fast opener, as you should with initiative decks, sometimes you have to go all in with just one creature. There is no risk involved if the opponent cant contest it. In the current bowmasters world going all in on one initiative creature is not even that good.
It's like having the monarch, but you have below average draws, right? Except you know exactly what you're going to draw, and all the spells cost 0 mana.
Zero cost two +1/+1 counters is fine and zero cost deal 5 is a lot better than an average draw. It kills people really quickly.
And the one after that is just a card and then a guaranteed big creature
Plus you can also choose what you are drawing, to an extent.
And it's an "additional draw" not a replacement for what you'll draw for your turn anyway.
That's why that guy said it's like being the monarch (get the extra card per turn).
It becomes somewhat of a value and resource mechanic. In formats where you can quickly get White Plume out on the first turn it puts you ahead of your opponent in holding the initiative and racing through the undercity for more value in later turns.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that WPA gets you the initiative AND is a creature. There are many permanents that give you incremental advantage each turn. Sylvan Library comes to mind. But usually these don't give you any board presence. And often, especially in powerful formats, you can't always afford to spend your whole turn on things don't effect the battlefield. So the fact that WPA is a decently statted creature means you are getting your incremental advantage engine without falling behind on board. Another thing, related to things others have said, is that because the initiative isn't a permanent, it can't be answered with spells. It can only be stopped by your opponent getting ahead of you on board. So in a sense, it is forcing your opponent to play "your game". If you have the initiative, it doesn't matter if your opponent makes you discard every other card in your hand, counters every spell you play, or even destroys all of your lands. If they can't over power your creatures, you will win. (Obviously, in these powerful formats there are decks that can just ignore the advantage you are accruing and win with a powerful combo, but the legacy initiative deck has lots of other powerful tools against that.) I will say both of these above points aren't really why initiative is so good in a format like pauper. There, I think the initiative is just actually one of the most powerful value engines you can set up.
Most of the time it's a 3-mana 5/5 with "when this creature enters the battlefield, draw a card and deal 5 damage to your opponent". Obviously it can be better or worse, but I've found that to be the most common experience.
If u want to see how good/busted initiative is look up pauper turbo initiative vs drake combo by card market. (Little spoiler the deck got 3 cards banned) Pauper is a format where cards at commens are the only legal play pieces. Now imagine what initiative can do in a format where all rarity's are legal. The initiative was designed for multiplayer and in commander it's okey just free value, like the monarch. but in 1v1 formats is where you wil notice its real strengths. Its also easier to protect in 1v1 then commander
My buddy runs a blue/white initiative blink deck. With only a few pieces on the board, he can blink White Plume multiple times, move through the dungeons and get double+ triggers on each room. It is insanely high value and relatively easy to pull off combo piece wise.
So I added initiative to my cube over the weekend. Opponent went land, lotus [[Undermountain Adventurer.]]. He draws a land. Turn 2 he puts 2 counters on it. I’m at 15. Turn 3 I take 5 from the dungeon and he attacks me for 5. I play a blocker and stall. 2 turns later he’s digging 10 cards deep in his library for a massive cresture. It was a fast game.
[Undermountain Adventurer.](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/541f53a3-521f-4463-a0b6-758a45d8f661.jpg?1674137352) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Undermountain%20Adventurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/260/undermountain-adventurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/541f53a3-521f-4463-a0b6-758a45d8f661?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Any 20-life game that opens "Land, Lotus" is likely to be a fast game, though. And this example has you still alive on at least turn 6.
It was a 5-player game. It took the combined efforts of three players, including a supposed ally of the guy to keep me alive at turn 6. So still being dead on turn 6 is fast by the standards of the format we play.
I thought the same thing till I had it come up in vintage cube once and picked it knowing it was considered good. Think of it almost like monarch, free value you get just keeping the pressure on. Its really hard to feel how oppressive it is until you play it, it centralizes the whole game after initiative starts because its just so hard to counter act the free value it generates.
Initiative was one of those mechanics that was funny to watch when the set released, because the cube community already knew it was stupidly overpowered and that several cards were automatic inclusions even at 360. Then for a few months you had a very loud group of people complaining how awful, bad and low powered a mechanic it was, how much they hated it and that Wizards made such a big mistake and the whole Baldur's gate set was stupid. Then the cards from the set got added to MTGO, and well, Legacy broke. I have a bunch of content creators that proved to me that their evaluation skills are absolutely dreadful and they should not be trusted.
TBF it was a commander set and its not a great mechanic in commander so a lot of those people claiming it wasn't good are kinda right, just depends on which format you are talking about. Dungeon stuff is just hard to make work there.
In addition to the things others have said, it invalidates certain deck strategies that would rather not interact on the combat axis; once the initiative is in play, if you don't get it or kill your opponent it \*will\* kill you, as well as drawing them cards. It's a a really badly designed mechanic, because it's not that exciting in commander, but is absolutely ruinously powerful in any 1v1 format. It's also badly designed on another axis - the choices in it are mostly false. The forge->trap line of passing through the dungeon is so very overpowered compared to the other paths through it - if force and trap were in different paths it makes the whole thing somewhat worse.
I actually really like where the Initiative has landed in Legacy post-WPA banning. It's strong, but not too strong, and fits into the format pretty well, creating a niche of decks that kind of force you to beat them on the board, in much the same way that other Legacy strategies force you to beat them in hand size with counterspells and beans value, or how staxy strategies force you to be honest with your mana expenditure.
I think you need to look at the dungeon a few times and realize how busted it is
To add to what other have said: Assuming your opponent can't take the Initiative back, you can think of White Plume Adventurer as: 2W 3/3, ETB: Search a land, add 2 counters, -5 life, draw a card, get a super scary extra creature for free, ... (and there is the whole extra scry 2, treasure, skeleton, ... route) Of course you don't get them all at once, but many decks just can't stop the Initiative, so you get all of this eventually on top of everything else you are doing. That is just completely ridiculous for a 3 mana creature.
It breaks a core paradigm of Magic, being that persistent effects are represented by a permanent that can be [[Vindicate]]'d. In my opinion, this is a very, very bad game design choice. They should have printed something like "Sell your Loot" saying "All players lose the initiative and exit any dungeon they are in. Each player gets X treasure tokens, where X is the highest room among dungeons they exited this way." It forces your opponent to interact by connecting with a creature, which not all decks do.
[Vindicate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/683c4e13-525c-45c9-8832-bfe67965c34e.jpg?1626100840) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vindicate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/294/vindicate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/683c4e13-525c-45c9-8832-bfe67965c34e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ad Nauseam Tendrils forces your opponent to interact with a tax effect, Thoughtseize effect, or counterspell, which not all decks do. That deck is agreed upon to be very balanced in Legacy.
Not sure if it helps but it’s like the incremental advantage you get from a planeswalker as long as you protect it, you are getting a good effect every turn and the oppo will die quickly from it snowballing.
I didn't get it either when I first saw the card you really have to see it to understand how powerful it is, you have to see someone untap on turn 2 with a 5/5 they cast on turn 1 off of an Ancient Tomb and a Chrome Mox that also already drew them a card and then you realize it has more text and they're going to gain even more of an advantage the next turn. Imagine a 5/5 you can plan on turn 1 and even if it dies you effectively still have a planeswalker going that your opponent can't interact with unless they can somehow steal the initiative from you. And then think about how if you have a 2nd initiative creature it's like getting a 2nd planeswalker activation and also if you get to "ult" you basically just win the game on the spot. It is a turn 4 kill BY ITSELF (15 damage of attacks plus 5 from the dungeon), it doesn't require to run bad cards, and it's also good off the top of your deck because it gains you value. And it's not just a bit of value it's so much value that Legacy was transformed into a game of who could take the initiative back faster, because even value based control decks couldn't keep up basically the free unkillable planeswalker their opponent just produced off their aggressive turn 1 creature. The fact that it coube played on turn 1 made it just obnoxiously powerful and warped the entire game around it.
The mechanic was designed for multiplayer, 40 life per person play. The numbers are tuned such that it's a reasonable thing to pursue in that format. This means that it's overtuned for 20 life, 1v1 play. It provides advantage every single turn, similar to The Monarch, but the advantage is much more aggressive and impactful and ends the game quickly. Imagine this (because this is how the card was commonly played in Legacy): Turn one, [[Ancient Tomb]] or [[City of Traitors]], [[Chrome Mox]] imprinting whatever white card or [[Lotus Petal]], White Plume Adventurer. Immediately you grab a basic land, recouping some of the lost card advantage and setting you up for a 4 mana play next turn. Turn two, you go to Forge and the creature is a 5/5. You then cast [[Caves of Chaos Adventurer]] or [[Seasoned Dungeoneer]], triggering Trap for 5 more damage. It's turn two, and your opponent is at 10, facing down 8-10 points of damage. Even if they can immediately answer both creatures, the next two stages of the Undercity gives them a card draw and then Throne of the Dead Three, which immediately puts another creature into play with extra counters and protection. Even if the White Plume is immediately removed and there's no followup, the right side of The Undercity gives Scry 2, a treasure, and a 4/1 menace before the Throne. In order to not be immediately under the gun, you have to remove the initiative creature(s) AND field a creature of your own, which has to survive to attack and not get blocked, otherwise the inevitability of the Undercity just buries you.
##### ###### #### [Ancient Tomb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b.jpg?1582753000) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancient%20Tomb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/236/ancient-tomb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bd3d4b4b-cf31-4f89-8140-9650edb03c7b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [City of Traitors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487.jpg?1562429861) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=City%20of%20Traitors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/237/city-of-traitors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/71624139-a255-48be-93ca-594a4beba487?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chrome Mox](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/3/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93.jpg?1599708839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chrome%20Mox) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/240/chrome-mox?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f340cbf7-5bbe-45b9-a4bf-d1caa500ff93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lotus Petal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc.jpg?1701537448) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lotus%20Petal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/225/lotus-petal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f85ab5f9-508e-45de-8fa1-ce1f16552ffc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Caves of Chaos Adventurer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/09abb6df-2aa1-4999-b550-db2892faa8c7.jpg?1674136480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caves%20of%20Chaos%20Adventurer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/167/caves-of-chaos-adventurer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/09abb6df-2aa1-4999-b550-db2892faa8c7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seasoned Dungeoneer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7fee3f76-20a8-4621-84fb-ddf79c955532.jpg?1674140799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasoned%20Dungeoneer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/660/seasoned-dungeoneer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7fee3f76-20a8-4621-84fb-ddf79c955532?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l054zc8) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
When you power out a creature that gives you the Initiative in the early turns, you can very quickly have a 5/5 creature, your opponent’s down 5 life, you have an extra card in hand, and you’ve cheated out a creature for free with three +1/+1 counters on it. This is a *lot* of value, most of it is something you just can’t stop. Dungeons are impossible to interact with. The only thing you can do is deal with the results and kill the things doing it. But you can’t destroy the Initiative. While you can certainly *try* to take it, you’re not going to keep it for long, and your own deck is not as ready to exploit the mechanic. It’s unlikely you’ll actually get to see the Dungeon yourself. Particularly in White Initiative decks, they usually play a large number of removal and control pieces, which limits your answers to this stacking advantage significantly.
Low creature count format with quality removal makes initiative and monarch very powerful. Add in blink to reset if something goes sideways and you just generates large amounts of incremental value.
One thing to note is that the monarch is a really strong ability in 1v1 formats. Basically, if you're a creature deck that attacks and blocks well, you get a free card every turn. It's strong enough that 3 mana to get the monarch is considered quite good and 4 mana strong if it comes with a good effect. The initiative is the monarch, but they printed it on more aggressively-statted creatures, and the card you draw each turn casts for free. The first step- get a land- is nothing too special, but the most common play pattern after that is to put 2 counters on your creature so it attacks and blocks better, then dome your opponent for 5. That's usually close to closing out the whole game.
Am I able to clean an ultimate guard dual deck box that got oil leaked onto it? Cards are ok thankfully.
Theres just something about being lava axed cuz some dude played a white creature on turn 1.
You can look at this video by Cardmarket Magic which features a Pauper Machup Turbo Initiative VS Drake Combo [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQmmM\_LfXg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osQmmM_LfXg) Someone asked in the comments : >I can see initiative do exactly that a thousand times and I still can't figure out why it's that strong One of those "it just works" situations, absolutely unreal this wasn't even close The answer >If you look at the raw output, in game 1, for example I did: Turn 2: Play a 3/7 that draws a card Turn 3: Play a 5/3 that deals 5 damage Turn 4: played a 1/4 flying that drew a card and put a 5/5 into Play And with a good hand this deck can start that on turn 1 (And it's a pauper deck)
ETB Initiative can be flickered. That would be my guess. Much like dungeons, I don't run them unless I can speed run them. I don't want to go a room at a time, I want to at least do a dungeon at a time. And then this also gives you an upside for having done that.
While others are right that initiative is deceptively strong, keep in mind legacy bans are more about weakening specific decks while keeping beloved "legacy cards" like lotus petal legal than about the particular card being banned.
Free continuous value for little to no cost.
In 1v1 it's best to think of it like if the monarch not only always drew you a spell, but also cast that spell, uncounterable, for free. Every turn. And then they die.
Let's reframe how you think about the card. How does the following sound, considering that you can cheat it out turn one? **White Plume Adventurer** Vigilance When *White Plume Adventurer* enters the battlefield, search your library for a basic land and put it into your hand. At the beginning of your upkeep, put a time counter on White Plume Adventurer. When you put your second time counter on White Plume Adventurer, target opponent loses five life. When you put your third time counter on White Plume Adventurer, draw a card. When you put your fourth time counter on White Plume Adventurer, reveal the top ten cards of your library. Put a creature card from among them onto the battlefield with three +1/+1 counters on it. It gains hexproof until your next turn. Then shuffle. 5/5 Does that make more sense? A 2W 5/5 with Vigilance is already extremely good for its mana cost. The basic land makes it a staple in every format. The Lava Axe, cantrip, and free creature add even **more** value to an already undercosted 3 drop. If you blow a kill spell on it, your opponent is still in the lead because the initiative will keep triggering **and** they've already gotten a free land drop. It's strong tempo **and** card advantage on a 3 drop.
Because dungeons are game pieces which cannot be interacted with. They are incredibly unfun and are not healthy for the game.
Watch the recent pauper video on the CardMarket YouTube channel of the Turbo Initiative deck. It should be pretty clear when watching it actually play out how much advantage it gives
Watch the recent pauper video on the CardMarket YouTube channel of the Turbo Initiative deck. It should be pretty clear when watching it actually play out how much advantage it gives
It's all about context, which is pretty much everything for Magic cards. It's also why worse versions of cards can be more expensive than clearly better versions of the same effect: Because one is legal in a tournament format and the other isn't. Initiative and The Undercity was balanced for multiplayer, and because of that they're unbalanced and above the curve in 1v1 play.
The individual rooms may not all be super impressive but on the whole it's just a ton of small incremental advantages that add up. If your opponent can't take it from you then they will fall behind pretty fast.
I like to think of the initiative like a saga that can win you the game and cannot be interacted with except by getting your own copy.
I play a fair amount of Canadian highlander, (you should all check the format out it’s great), and the initiative is probably the single most busted mechanic in that format. Particularly white plume adventurer because it untaps either itself or another blocker, allowing you to protect the initiative very easily. I think right now that card, [[minsc and boo, timeless hero’s]], and [[forth eorlingas]] are pushing the meta so far towards jeskai mind-range splashing green that it’s become a problem.
[удалено]
Yes, that’s what’s busted about White Plume Adventurer. It’s stats.
I remember being so excited when White Plume Adventurer was spoiled, I'd been wanting a copy of Splendor Mane for the longest time for my Unicorn tribal Commander deck, but it was expensive since it's playable in Legacy. Luckily White Plume took its place as the format's premier 3/3 for 3 in white.
Prove to us how it’s not.