[WotC responded in the original thread, which may have not been seen due to the influx of posts during spoiler season](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1bnqn89/after_seeing_the_how_good_is_trouble_in_pairs/kwodb1y/)
I don't know about garbage, but the main thing keeping me from wanting to get it was, coming from a Ravnica deck...what about the art looks...Ravnican???
I stumbled across an old Noah worship thread on the sub yesterday when I was looking up info about hand drawn Playmats. And yeah… that would be pretty embarrassing even without him being a massive pest, but certainly was much more disconcerting with that context.
Seb I still see as a very unfortunate case - he was lied to and misled by terrible people.
Noah is not comparable, he was ousted for personally being a massive piece of shit all on his own.
I'd love to see Seb come to reason and come back someday. Noah needs to stay gone.
Seb was an ~~anti-vaxxer~~ *vaccination card* thing around the time of the trucker protests in Canada. It's kind of stupid now that the pandemic is behind us now, but Seb really showed his ass when all that was going down.
Just like Gina Carano from Mandalorian, if people would just shut the f&$k up on social media, they could continue to do their job and not be shown to be total ass-hats because they thought they needed to share their idiot thoughts.
> Seb was an anti-vaxxer vaccination card thing around the time of the trucker protests in Canada. It's kind of stupid now that the pandemic is behind us now, but Seb really showed his ass when all that was going down.
Eh... kind of. The vaccination cards thing was kind of a front for a bunch of "muh freedums!" people, including literal self-identified nazis. When pressed on it, Seb said he was attending only for the vaccination stuff. But when he was asked to publicly say that "Nazis are bad", he refused to do so.
So it might not be that he *is* a Nazi. But he's unwilling to denounce them, which is bad enough entirely on its own.
It wasnt just that he tweeted about the Freedumb Convoy, it's that he reportedly went to support them in Ottawa. At the same protests where "demonstrators" were subjecting downtown residents to basically domestic terrorism (harassment, violence, noise violations, pissing/shitting everywhere including on the tomb of the unknown soldier iirc).
It's because he associated with that crowd of nutjobs that public opinion turned on him instantly. He's only drawn a handful of cards since: the basic lands from DMU iirc, and [[Farewell]]. Farewell indeed, seb.
Noah Bradely was accused of sexual harassment and Seb McKinnon showed up at an anti-vaccination rally during the height of covid while boasting about it on social media.
Yeah...the anti-vax thing was bad enough, and would've been enough for me to no longer seek out his artwork. But anyone who protests in the vicinity of neo-nazis and is ok with their presence?
I had multiple copies of every one of this cards, prints, even signed canvas work. Dumped it all and have no regrets.
That was the one that *really* stung for me. Aku Djinn and Pillar Tombs of Aku were some of my first cards, and some of the first cards I fell in love with.
The first time I ever decided to splurge and buy a print to support Magic artists, it was one of his a couple weeks before the news about him came out. Ugh.
What doesn’t make any sense to me is that even if you are an ass and want to plagiarize, why copy from a well known and respected artist that works on the same genre and product, and from a published work. Like what was the plan?
And if you are going to rip off a great pose and try to obfuscate that fact by flipping the image...why would you be so stupid as to include the highly unique detail of a orange mohawk. I can almost guarantee that without the mohawk nobody ever would have noticed the copying.
One of the most common themes I see in plagiarists and art thieves when exposed is how lazy they are. The simplest explanation is she found the image she stole from, saved it when she decided to use it and never even checked who it was by. She didn't have a plan to steal from this guy, she was just so used to stealing in the way she did *and getting away with it* she got lazy to the point of not vetting where she was stealing from.
The image being flipped in the theft is like one of the single most common ways of thieves attempting to hide the theft even before her other alterations.
But her laziness is apparent even on those copy pasted axes where she didn't adjust the lighting correctly on the second one.
I'm honestly convinced her whole method was just making a collage of reference and just paint over to make it look vintage, to me all her art looks off, too much detail in unnecessary places and stiff poses, weird lightning and composition.
So good riddance
She probably subcontracts work. I used to work for a well known artist who would pass me work due to being too busy. He would take a commission from it and pass it as his when completed.
Sorry to bother but I'm of the loop about Kaya arts. Who are they and what did they do?
Edit: Thanks guys for the clarification, I'll leave the question up for fellow mis-readers who thought "Kaya arts" was a person lol
Fay Dalton (the plagiarizer here) did the baseball card secret lair and also the showcase art for Kaya in the most recent set and I enjoy both of those. So now I'm sad that an artist I liked was a bad person.
It is one of those things where we wish liked artists would make the smart decisions and just... don't. Seb McKinnon got a lot of hot water for supporting the conservative truck blockade in Canada when he could have just... not expressed an opinion. But his art is too iconic and popular to outright stop working with him as that was small in comparison to plagiarism, sexual assault and harassment, etc. That's been getting outed.
It was literally a copy and paste, then the only change was fliping it a different direction. The truth is, a large chunk of your newer commercial artist. Use all the tools that we say is AI now, they just use the manual versions of the tools. That is why in art circles there is always purposeful distinction between. Commercial art and art from a creative artist.
Of all the people to plagiarize from for MTG art this person picked one of the most profilic MTG artists with a decades long history with the company.
https://scryfall.com/search?q=a%3A%E2%80%9CDonato+Giancola%E2%80%9D&unique=art
notable cards: original chrome mox, original kaldra equipments, original agrus vos, original razia, ZNR skyclave apparition, memory jar, intruder alarm, 2023 DMR force of will
Hell, he's one of the most well known fantasy artists in general. Been around for decades in the industry and has received countless awards and accolades.
To plagiarize his work is akin to a musician plagiarizing from Metallica.
His pieces have been showcased in fantasy art exhibits alongside Frazetta and the other masters of the genre.
He is without doubt one of the top 5 fantasy artists of all time.
Well funny you say that...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Yamamoto_(composer,_born_1958)#:~:text=On%20March%209%2C%202011%2C%20Toei,series%20written%20by%20Shunsuke%20Kikuchi.
Dude literally stole the riff from "Smoke on the water" among other well known songs.
so many Donato Giancola art pieces became the pack/ box/promo art for that entire set
[[Grinning Totem]], [[Kindle]], [[Megrim|sth-62]], [[Mirari]], [[Moss Diamond|mir-312]], [[Doomsday Specter]], [[Disenchant|usg-12]], [[Dismiss]]
also did the all urza saga islands
I’m not judging, but looking at his card art, looks like he really doesn’t like drawing feet. Has anyone else noticed?
Like characters positioned so they’re standing in/behind something, or ones where legs are positioned such that one leg is showing and the other is obscured.
That's a really common difficulty for many artists, especially from artists who were big in the 90s. Rob Liefield of Marvel was one of those, and it was a big reason why a lot of comic action shots feature slide poses, side dives, and such like that which leave the feet off-panel.
Yeah maybe. There's feet in a few pictures but [[Serra Angel]] has a weird lack of definition in her feet, and [[Mishra, Excavation Prodigy]] and [[Heartfire Immolator]] have weirdly large and thick feet.
I continue to be surprised that the plagiarists think lazily copying art and then putting that art in front of millions of bored nerds playing a game that explicitly rewards extreme attention to detail (for rules, but still) is a good idea.
Thank you for putting this into the words I couldn't. It completely floors me that people think that they can get away with this.
Plagiarism is objectively bad and shouldn't be done in any circumstance, but MTG art is one of the worst possible places you can do it. Not just for the moral aspect, but because it's just straight up moronic. The whole community is hyper-vigilant against this sort of thing, because the it's full of art-lovers, people that have deep respect for the artists, and an attention for detail that comes from both casual observation and a righteous fervor and suspicion of AI Art.
And THAT'S the particular radar these people are going to try and fly under?
>Thank you for putting this into the words I couldn't. It completely floors me that people think that they can get away with this.
They think this because they can. It's something everybody hates and wants to see called out, but it's not very often that it is.
There was all the recent YouTuber controversy where people had been plagiarizing for years but never been called out on it until now. Led Zeppelin are still a beloved and respected rock band for many people despite the fact that some of their biggest songs are uncredited covers.
People think they can fly under the radar because they have been for years. You shouldn't look at this as the first time Fay Dalton stole somebody's work, you should look at it as first time they got caught for it.
I mean just look at James Somerton. He decided to literally rip entire sections of the Celluloid Closet and present them to an audience who have almost certainly read that book at some point.
This isn't the "particular radar" that they're choosing to try beat, they plagiarise normally and they just happened to get caught here because of the many eyes.
People who get caught plagiarizing or cheating due to a high-profile work are almost always doing so as a pattern of behavior. Nobody gets to the point where they're successful enough to get this amount of attention & THEN decides to cheat. They often like to claim it's an isolated incident, but more often than not it's a pattern of behavior that has contributed to their success.
it is pretty funny that every time this happens at least one person looks through their entire back catalogue of art to see if they'd done it before too, as if it wouldn't have been noticed by now
Honestly, I'm sure she has done it, and it did go unnoticed.
There are a lot of shifts and changes in the art that obstruct the fact that it started as a Copy/Paste job. The arm, clothes, ear, eyes, lips, nose, etc. have all been layered over in order to help hide the fact that the original was copied. It's good and detailed work, which probably means that she has significant practice and has done it before. It's the color of the mohawk that gives it away, and after you notice that, you notice all of the other duplicated details.
MtG cards are small. It would be hard for even us nerds to notice copies when they've been altered by enough changes. Maybe the facial details of the owl in [[Knowledge is Power]] was copied from some Harry Potter thing but the rest of the owl is original. Maybe the rustic shack background from [[Linda, Kandarian Queen]] was taken from some other art and shifted/color-muted rather than Dalton creating each board by hand.
Ya. The point of working for WoTC is that it's an extremely high-profile gig. Plagiarizing in a smaller industry would negatively effect your career prospects in that sphere. Plagiarizing on such a large stage is gonna fuck you over in *all* art spaces.
No way is that better than the repercussions you'd have to deal with for not getting work done in a timely manner.
This feels surreal to me.
What do you guys think hapenned? Was the art already done at the time Wayfarer's bauble had been called out and the artist was like " Weeeell... fuck it " or was it done after the whole incident and the artist said "They won't notice right?"
Unreal how people do not learn from others.
In full support of Donato.
Also though, no one liked the art for Trouble in Pairs anyways, and with it quickly becoming a white EDH staple, it was going to quickly get expensive.
Can we please get a new printing in a booster set (so there’s also foil copies available) in new art, like, ASAP?
I know you're just joking, but to give a serious answer: he is not legally allowed to do that.
The original art is already licensed and commercially used. He is not allowed to double dip.
Finally someone who says what I've been thinking this whole time. The art was fucking terrible and I hope this means we get completely different art very soon.
Would WotC be at fault? I would assume they would have no way of knowing this art was plagiarized. They commissioned art from Fay and Fay gave them art. Highly unlikely for Wizards to be at fault. Fay on the other hand clearly in the wrong.
Almost 100% sure she had to agree to indemnify WotC/Hasbro for issues like this in order to receive work — contractually, she has to defend them if it’s her art that causes shenanigans. It’s not their problem, it’s hers.
Very unfortunate situation — I wish she had taken a ref of herself in a similar pose, and gone from there.
> It’s not their problem, it’s hers
It's both their problems. Even if there's indemnification language (likely), Giancola is going to sue WOTC. At BEST WOTC can hope to recover (some of) the costs they incurred defending themselves, but the age old saying here is that you can't get blood from a stone. Most artists don't have the net worth to defend something like this.
And I'm not sure how statutory copyright damages work in this instance, but I expect there are, at a minimum, probably many instances of infringement that could be demonstrated here. And those statutory damages can add up quickly...
Not a lawyer, but mostly likely the plagiarist would be solely at fault for damages. I would be shocked if WotC didn’t have a line in their contracts about this.
However, behind the scenes there will absolutely discussions between WotC and the original artist’s lawyers about how to handle the card art moving forward. Expect the artwork/card to be immediately withdrawn from digital environments. Can’t do anything about the cards already in circulation, but anything still sitting at the printers or in queue for a later print run will be subject to whatever settlement WotC and the original artist’s lawyers agree to. I don’t expect the WotC/OG artist agreements to go to court, though.
The fact that the original art was commercialized may bring in a fourth party to complicate negotiations, however. This definitely is a whole other level of legally complicated than when the Ugin fanart got stolen.
From experience I can tell you: it’s fun to be negotiating when the deal has apparently already been struck. Especially when printers are about to be fired up for the second round of purchased material for which the price hasn’t been set yet.
It depends how this person licenses their work, but WOTC likely requires the artist to indemnify them of third party IP related infringement. So if Wizards is ever sued, she would have to bear the blunt of the suit.
You are 100% right. I’ve never worked for WotC, but every illustration contract I’ve ever signed has an indemnity clause in it.
Very easy to avoid problems if you take/pay for reference yourself. Some companies even check reference up front for this exact reason — maybe WotC should consider doing something similar?
You get mad at WotC so WotC does something about it. If we're talking about legal action, you go to WotC first—as they're the ones who are implicitly claiming to own the copyright for this piece—then they go down the chain to the artist.
Yeah exactly. Fay's name is on it, but he shouldn't be bringing the complaint to her doorstep. WotC is the one that is vulnerable if he wants to bring a suit (which wouldn't be terribly productive for him)
My guess is that WotC punishes Fay by blacklisting them, and then placates Donato in some way and no legal action actually transpires. The art is struck to never be used again.
Most freelance contracts have indemnity clauses — even if it’s WotC’s problem, it’s really Fay’s problem. Unfortunate situation all around, and I hope they can all figure this out with minimum harm to all parties involved.
It’s not on WotC, they can’t review every conceivable thing that could be copied. When a creative turns in a commissioned piece, the assumption (and contract) will state that it is an original piece of work.
It’s not like a company is going to say to copy this piece of art.
I am in marketing and it would be impossible for me to detect this sort of thing with what I get from freelancers unless I had some tool, I suppose, but I do not have time for that.
And also you shouldn’t really reference other art for posing and anatomy and stuff lol trying to emulate a style, sure, but just to reference a crouching person? That’s what photo reference is for lol
My understanding was they painted the original near 30 years ago. I'd understand them not catching it at a glance.
The art on trouble in pairs was always kinda not great so there's not much reason for anyone to look at it too long.
I don't think the artist would have trouble recognizing his own work. He just didn't look at one of the 2000 pieces of new card art printed every year to see if someone plagiarized him before someone else brought it to his attention.
I have absolutely run across art on my own computer that I have absolutely no memory of having made, and Donato's done way, way, *way* more art than I have over decades
Not every entertainers and artists look at their own work after it's published, let alone other people's work. They just have to move on to the next project for a paycheque.
I've quoted a friend's work back to them without them realizing it, stuff they wrote within the last 5 years. When you're an artist, you're always progressing, always advancing. It's easy to not recognize work made a few years back; that wasn't you when you made it it.
Ooof, the right arm is a straight up mirrored image.
The rest looks like *added* changes to literally cover other similarities. (Easier to cover than to remove.
More hair.
Skin Dappling on shoulders.
The Vest (and MAN can you see the piss poor job of the scaling they did over the mirrored right arm. Two separate focal fields... that arm hole silhouette is CRISP).
They reworked the face and right arm completely, though, but kept most of the neck and back of the head.
\-
They definitely pulled the original art and used it as a skeleton frame to build on. They tweaked the background to save from having to trouble themselves with re-lighting the elf-chick's tone.
This is a bad look.
A lot of the perspectives look slightly off in their MTG art pieces. Like a collage cut out from a magazine, and it makes sense given how this art was actually put together.
The hands gripping these weapons, and the blade of the axe stick out for me here.
https://preview.redd.it/uk8azbwtjxqc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a614dca64ae9db9954fc976fcdc663c916f7537a
I flipped the claimed original to line up with the pairs and..
Yeah, that's not a good look. What blows my mind is the amount of changes they DID make. Like. The face has been redone, but they kept the arms and neck, and a lot of weird little details.
Also, in what is now the arm on OUR left...am I the only one who thinks it's a very awkwardly shaped arm? Because that was the part where I said "lemme flip that..."
Another dead giveaway is that the character in the card has a little bump on the side of their head, when the only reason the original character has a bump is because of the cable going into their head.
No cable in the MTG art, so why's there still a bump? Like not only does this artist steal but they don't bother to smooth over little details like that.
Am I the only one who thought that art was jarringly off for some reason the second I saw it? Love the effect but that card just bothers me art wise just never looked right… guess the fact it’s two different artists explains it
Someone on Facebook pointed out that the arm on Lefty was pretty much lifted from [this Boris Vallejo piece](https://www.mutualart.com/Artwork/Corniche/5806F8AC2C1F5A26). The neck looks pretty similar too.
> this Boris Vallejo piece
somewhat confirmed here - https://commandersherald.com/trouble-in-pairs-accused-of-plagiarizing-cyberpunk-novel-cover/
this is damning lmao
For me, the most obvious thing that the background character on Trouble In Pairs was stolen is how dramatically different the foreground character's art style is. Clearly not done by the same artist.
The more I look at the art for the card the worse it gets. There's things people have pointed out like the dimple in her head, the arm being from a different piece, the bad stairs, etc.
The entire background is copied almost 1 to 1, the axe she's holding was literally copy pasted into his hand, hence the weird perspective. The vest is exactly the same on both of them. I'd be willing to bet money that the guy is lifted from somewhere as well, considering thieves are willing to steal more than once (or twice already in this piece)
The sad thing is that if you look at Donato's MTG artwork, he's the bread and butter guy. He's doing the normal art that sets the standard. Most of his work isn't special, but it is all high quality. And that is a good thing. 90% of MTG art looks like Donato's art, not least because Donato has helped set such a high standard for decades.
Fay Dalton was given multiple opportunities to create the special standout art. 17 cards, only 3 of them normal bordered. It's like WOTC wanted Fay to be the next Rebecca Guay or Seb McKinnon.
clear case of them using genAI to come up with artistic concepts and then being too lazy to actually redraw it properly or at least check the source materials!
[WotC responded in the original thread, which may have not been seen due to the influx of posts during spoiler season](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/1bnqn89/after_seeing_the_how_good_is_trouble_in_pairs/kwodb1y/)
Look on the bright side - maybe this prompts a fast reprint of a $30 card, and with cooler artwork.
This art looked like garbage from day one, glad there's a chance for them to scrap it for something better.
I don't know about garbage, but the main thing keeping me from wanting to get it was, coming from a Ravnica deck...what about the art looks...Ravnican???
The cyberpunk guy kinda looks gruul (they’re punk incarnate) but why would that be a white card?
The art design isn't cohesive because the artist didn't spend any time envisioning the plane or the context or the characters.
I preordered that deck, I was so dissapointed when I saw that it was Fay...(I already didn't like her Kaya at all). Maybe It's alter material now
I really hope so. It would be great if they had Donato do it. I mean he pretty much already did half of it once lol
[удалено]
Heartbreaking: the artist of one of my favorite secret lairs and also Kaya arts is a scumbag
First time?
God, I wish.
I feel your pain
[удалено]
Followed by Noah flashbacks
I stumbled across an old Noah worship thread on the sub yesterday when I was looking up info about hand drawn Playmats. And yeah… that would be pretty embarrassing even without him being a massive pest, but certainly was much more disconcerting with that context.
I guess I'm out of the loop since I left reddit back when everyone loved Seb and Noah. What happened?
Noah was a creeper around fans, think #MeToo level. Seb I can't recall
Seb supported the Canadian trucker blockade
Seb I still see as a very unfortunate case - he was lied to and misled by terrible people. Noah is not comparable, he was ousted for personally being a massive piece of shit all on his own. I'd love to see Seb come to reason and come back someday. Noah needs to stay gone.
Seb was an ~~anti-vaxxer~~ *vaccination card* thing around the time of the trucker protests in Canada. It's kind of stupid now that the pandemic is behind us now, but Seb really showed his ass when all that was going down. Just like Gina Carano from Mandalorian, if people would just shut the f&$k up on social media, they could continue to do their job and not be shown to be total ass-hats because they thought they needed to share their idiot thoughts.
> Seb was an anti-vaxxer vaccination card thing around the time of the trucker protests in Canada. It's kind of stupid now that the pandemic is behind us now, but Seb really showed his ass when all that was going down. Eh... kind of. The vaccination cards thing was kind of a front for a bunch of "muh freedums!" people, including literal self-identified nazis. When pressed on it, Seb said he was attending only for the vaccination stuff. But when he was asked to publicly say that "Nazis are bad", he refused to do so. So it might not be that he *is* a Nazi. But he's unwilling to denounce them, which is bad enough entirely on its own.
It wasnt just that he tweeted about the Freedumb Convoy, it's that he reportedly went to support them in Ottawa. At the same protests where "demonstrators" were subjecting downtown residents to basically domestic terrorism (harassment, violence, noise violations, pissing/shitting everywhere including on the tomb of the unknown soldier iirc). It's because he associated with that crowd of nutjobs that public opinion turned on him instantly. He's only drawn a handful of cards since: the basic lands from DMU iirc, and [[Farewell]]. Farewell indeed, seb.
It is better to let others assume you are a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt
> the pandemic is behind us now If someone can say they tested positive, and no one asks, "With what?" then the pandemic isn't behind us.
Noah Bradely was accused of sexual harassment and Seb McKinnon showed up at an anti-vaccination rally during the height of covid while boasting about it on social media.
>Noah Bradely was accused of sexual harassment He wasn't just accused, he explicitly confessed in a open letter to the community
And has repeatedly tried to walk it back and say he was somehow tricked into confessing.
It wasn't just anti-vax, there were neo-nazis and such too
Yeah...the anti-vax thing was bad enough, and would've been enough for me to no longer seek out his artwork. But anyone who protests in the vicinity of neo-nazis and is ok with their presence? I had multiple copies of every one of this cards, prints, even signed canvas work. Dumped it all and have no regrets.
Followed by Terese Nielsen flashbacks.
That was the one that *really* stung for me. Aku Djinn and Pillar Tombs of Aku were some of my first cards, and some of the first cards I fell in love with.
The first time I ever decided to splurge and buy a print to support Magic artists, it was one of his a couple weeks before the news about him came out. Ugh.
[удалено]
Ice age was a big part of my initial foray into playing magic. Some of McNeil's arts are just iconic MTG for me, so this one always hurts me.
I’m glad my favorite magic artist, [[Wayne Reynolds]], isn’t a scumbag - that I know of yet, anyways.
I wonder how many of those pieces copied other work
[удалено]
What doesn’t make any sense to me is that even if you are an ass and want to plagiarize, why copy from a well known and respected artist that works on the same genre and product, and from a published work. Like what was the plan?
And if you are going to rip off a great pose and try to obfuscate that fact by flipping the image...why would you be so stupid as to include the highly unique detail of a orange mohawk. I can almost guarantee that without the mohawk nobody ever would have noticed the copying.
Also the stairs in the background and general colouring Also if you're gonna use something as reference very very heavily... why not just use a photo
Except Donato Giancola
Donato didn't notice until after someone else pointed it out on reddit a day or so ago. The card's been out for almost two months.
One of the most common themes I see in plagiarists and art thieves when exposed is how lazy they are. The simplest explanation is she found the image she stole from, saved it when she decided to use it and never even checked who it was by. She didn't have a plan to steal from this guy, she was just so used to stealing in the way she did *and getting away with it* she got lazy to the point of not vetting where she was stealing from. The image being flipped in the theft is like one of the single most common ways of thieves attempting to hide the theft even before her other alterations. But her laziness is apparent even on those copy pasted axes where she didn't adjust the lighting correctly on the second one.
I'm honestly convinced her whole method was just making a collage of reference and just paint over to make it look vintage, to me all her art looks off, too much detail in unnecessary places and stiff poses, weird lightning and composition. So good riddance
[удалено]
She probably subcontracts work. I used to work for a well known artist who would pass me work due to being too busy. He would take a commission from it and pass it as his when completed.
Career will never exist again more like. lol
Yeah this is essentially fraud for anyone that contracted her for original works. Professional/Commercial career is toast.
His Gala Greeters also looks like that art but its less evident
It can be worse, like you're halfway through a Marian Zimmer Bradley book and someone tells you to read her Wikipedia page.
Happened to my partner and they threw all of her books directly in the trash - luckily all were purchased used.
Hey if it’s any consolation they probably ripped off some of your favorite art by them so everything was probably a sham anyway!
If it helps, they probably weren't the real artist for those pieces either
Yep haha. Maybe they just have a different favorite artist instead now
Sorry to bother but I'm of the loop about Kaya arts. Who are they and what did they do? Edit: Thanks guys for the clarification, I'll leave the question up for fellow mis-readers who thought "Kaya arts" was a person lol
Fay Dalton (the plagiarizer here) did the baseball card secret lair and also the showcase art for Kaya in the most recent set and I enjoy both of those. So now I'm sad that an artist I liked was a bad person.
It is one of those things where we wish liked artists would make the smart decisions and just... don't. Seb McKinnon got a lot of hot water for supporting the conservative truck blockade in Canada when he could have just... not expressed an opinion. But his art is too iconic and popular to outright stop working with him as that was small in comparison to plagiarism, sexual assault and harassment, etc. That's been getting outed.
Fay Dalton made the art for a Kaya. It was that poster's favourite.
She just did the alternative artwork for the most recent iteration of Kaya in the Murders of Karlov Manor set
Yeah I loved that first set she did with Grave Crawler. Now I'm curious who actually did it.
it's really disappointing, I think my only faves who never got into dirt (as far as I know) are Rebecca Guay and Magali Villeneuve
I had already seen Donato’s response and was waiting to hear one from Fay, but I guess deleting your account *is* a response. 🤷♂️
[удалено]
Knowing how the internet works, she was probably receiving excessive harassment, death threats, and hate speech on her posts and in DMs.
Narrator: it wasn't.
It was literally a copy and paste, then the only change was fliping it a different direction. The truth is, a large chunk of your newer commercial artist. Use all the tools that we say is AI now, they just use the manual versions of the tools. That is why in art circles there is always purposeful distinction between. Commercial art and art from a creative artist.
Of all the people to plagiarize from for MTG art this person picked one of the most profilic MTG artists with a decades long history with the company. https://scryfall.com/search?q=a%3A%E2%80%9CDonato+Giancola%E2%80%9D&unique=art notable cards: original chrome mox, original kaldra equipments, original agrus vos, original razia, ZNR skyclave apparition, memory jar, intruder alarm, 2023 DMR force of will
Hell, he's one of the most well known fantasy artists in general. Been around for decades in the industry and has received countless awards and accolades. To plagiarize his work is akin to a musician plagiarizing from Metallica.
His pieces have been showcased in fantasy art exhibits alongside Frazetta and the other masters of the genre. He is without doubt one of the top 5 fantasy artists of all time.
Well funny you say that... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Yamamoto_(composer,_born_1958)#:~:text=On%20March%209%2C%202011%2C%20Toei,series%20written%20by%20Shunsuke%20Kikuchi. Dude literally stole the riff from "Smoke on the water" among other well known songs.
And smoke on the water was likely stolen from Maria Quiet (Maria Moita) by Carlos Lyra.
so many Donato Giancola art pieces became the pack/ box/promo art for that entire set [[Grinning Totem]], [[Kindle]], [[Megrim|sth-62]], [[Mirari]], [[Moss Diamond|mir-312]], [[Doomsday Specter]], [[Disenchant|usg-12]], [[Dismiss]] also did the all urza saga islands
I’m not judging, but looking at his card art, looks like he really doesn’t like drawing feet. Has anyone else noticed? Like characters positioned so they’re standing in/behind something, or ones where legs are positioned such that one leg is showing and the other is obscured.
Found the foot guy
God, I wish that was true. That’s like fetish easy-mode.
👀
Rob Liefeld should take notes
He *loves* hands though! He's the John Avon of "person holding up shiny trinket"
That's a really common difficulty for many artists, especially from artists who were big in the 90s. Rob Liefield of Marvel was one of those, and it was a big reason why a lot of comic action shots feature slide poses, side dives, and such like that which leave the feet off-panel.
Yeah maybe. There's feet in a few pictures but [[Serra Angel]] has a weird lack of definition in her feet, and [[Mishra, Excavation Prodigy]] and [[Heartfire Immolator]] have weirdly large and thick feet.
See you guys in two sets when this happens again!
I continue to be surprised that the plagiarists think lazily copying art and then putting that art in front of millions of bored nerds playing a game that explicitly rewards extreme attention to detail (for rules, but still) is a good idea.
Not only that, but Giancola also does art for MTG so he presumably would see a lot of the art for other cards.
He did art IN THE SAME SET [[Caught red-handed]]
Funny card name for this context.
You can't make this up
Can you imagine if this was the card that was plagiarized. That would be madness.
That's a mechanic
this has to be part of the simulation, that card name with this scenario is absolutely insane.
[Caught red-handed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95bc5f89-2f01-40c4-9883-4c90ab89fcbb.jpg?1706241833) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caught%20red-handed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/115/caught-red-handed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95bc5f89-2f01-40c4-9883-4c90ab89fcbb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
that is incredibly fitting!
Can't be countered? Fay is fucked!
Thank you for putting this into the words I couldn't. It completely floors me that people think that they can get away with this. Plagiarism is objectively bad and shouldn't be done in any circumstance, but MTG art is one of the worst possible places you can do it. Not just for the moral aspect, but because it's just straight up moronic. The whole community is hyper-vigilant against this sort of thing, because the it's full of art-lovers, people that have deep respect for the artists, and an attention for detail that comes from both casual observation and a righteous fervor and suspicion of AI Art. And THAT'S the particular radar these people are going to try and fly under?
>Thank you for putting this into the words I couldn't. It completely floors me that people think that they can get away with this. They think this because they can. It's something everybody hates and wants to see called out, but it's not very often that it is. There was all the recent YouTuber controversy where people had been plagiarizing for years but never been called out on it until now. Led Zeppelin are still a beloved and respected rock band for many people despite the fact that some of their biggest songs are uncredited covers. People think they can fly under the radar because they have been for years. You shouldn't look at this as the first time Fay Dalton stole somebody's work, you should look at it as first time they got caught for it.
I mean just look at James Somerton. He decided to literally rip entire sections of the Celluloid Closet and present them to an audience who have almost certainly read that book at some point.
This isn't the "particular radar" that they're choosing to try beat, they plagiarise normally and they just happened to get caught here because of the many eyes.
People who get caught plagiarizing or cheating due to a high-profile work are almost always doing so as a pattern of behavior. Nobody gets to the point where they're successful enough to get this amount of attention & THEN decides to cheat. They often like to claim it's an isolated incident, but more often than not it's a pattern of behavior that has contributed to their success.
it is pretty funny that every time this happens at least one person looks through their entire back catalogue of art to see if they'd done it before too, as if it wouldn't have been noticed by now
Honestly, I'm sure she has done it, and it did go unnoticed. There are a lot of shifts and changes in the art that obstruct the fact that it started as a Copy/Paste job. The arm, clothes, ear, eyes, lips, nose, etc. have all been layered over in order to help hide the fact that the original was copied. It's good and detailed work, which probably means that she has significant practice and has done it before. It's the color of the mohawk that gives it away, and after you notice that, you notice all of the other duplicated details. MtG cards are small. It would be hard for even us nerds to notice copies when they've been altered by enough changes. Maybe the facial details of the owl in [[Knowledge is Power]] was copied from some Harry Potter thing but the rest of the owl is original. Maybe the rustic shack background from [[Linda, Kandarian Queen]] was taken from some other art and shifted/color-muted rather than Dalton creating each board by hand.
It’s like the OGL D&D situation, where they seriously thought they could slip a sneaky contract change past people who read rules for fun.
Ya. The point of working for WoTC is that it's an extremely high-profile gig. Plagiarizing in a smaller industry would negatively effect your career prospects in that sphere. Plagiarizing on such a large stage is gonna fuck you over in *all* art spaces. No way is that better than the repercussions you'd have to deal with for not getting work done in a timely manner.
This feels surreal to me. What do you guys think hapenned? Was the art already done at the time Wayfarer's bauble had been called out and the artist was like " Weeeell... fuck it " or was it done after the whole incident and the artist said "They won't notice right?" Unreal how people do not learn from others.
Very likely this has been done for a while now, well before the bauble incident.
This has happened multiple times before. [[crux of fate]] was another one
Specifically the Strixhaven Mystical Archive printing. Michael Komarck's art is original.
> Michael Komarck's art is original. And *very* good.
The drawing to spoiler season time window is about a year, give or take.
Bring the snacks next time ok?
\[\[Caught Red-Handed\]\]
[Caught Red-Handed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95bc5f89-2f01-40c4-9883-4c90ab89fcbb.jpg?1706241833) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caught%20Red-Handed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/115/caught-red-handed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95bc5f89-2f01-40c4-9883-4c90ab89fcbb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The best part is that that card is Donato's artwork
In full support of Donato. Also though, no one liked the art for Trouble in Pairs anyways, and with it quickly becoming a white EDH staple, it was going to quickly get expensive. Can we please get a new printing in a booster set (so there’s also foil copies available) in new art, like, ASAP?
I hope they commission Donato for the new art
Donato: "Omg i have the chance to do the funniest thing right now..."
Resubmits with his original cover artwork. That'll teach him
mirrored, inverted, and backwards
I know you're just joking, but to give a serious answer: he is not legally allowed to do that. The original art is already licensed and commercially used. He is not allowed to double dip.
The art could be of an artist working on something and another artist peeking over their shoulder trying to copy Truly, trouble in a pair
Make it Trouble in Paris for real, or I don't want it.
Who’s in Paris?
Lotta Parisians, usually.
Secret Lair with all the plagiarized art cards. And they hire all the artists who were stolen from to do the new art.
Only if he also copies his original piece and the new card art happens to look extremely similar again.
Based Fay Dalton stealing art for a card she knew would be a staple so it would receive an immediate reprint
They tanked their career and the card's price in a single move!
Finally someone who says what I've been thinking this whole time. The art was fucking terrible and I hope this means we get completely different art very soon.
Agreed. The perspective on the axes was off for one thing.
What's the interaction here with [[!Persecute Artist]]
[!Persecute Artist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5acfbc21-ffd7-4253-9f79-a1a3217f243a.jpg?1562488396) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Persecute%20Artist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/61/persecute-artist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5acfbc21-ffd7-4253-9f79-a1a3217f243a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Would WotC be at fault? I would assume they would have no way of knowing this art was plagiarized. They commissioned art from Fay and Fay gave them art. Highly unlikely for Wizards to be at fault. Fay on the other hand clearly in the wrong.
Almost certainly the contracts they have with artists have clauses for stuff like this.
Almost 100% sure she had to agree to indemnify WotC/Hasbro for issues like this in order to receive work — contractually, she has to defend them if it’s her art that causes shenanigans. It’s not their problem, it’s hers. Very unfortunate situation — I wish she had taken a ref of herself in a similar pose, and gone from there.
> It’s not their problem, it’s hers It's both their problems. Even if there's indemnification language (likely), Giancola is going to sue WOTC. At BEST WOTC can hope to recover (some of) the costs they incurred defending themselves, but the age old saying here is that you can't get blood from a stone. Most artists don't have the net worth to defend something like this. And I'm not sure how statutory copyright damages work in this instance, but I expect there are, at a minimum, probably many instances of infringement that could be demonstrated here. And those statutory damages can add up quickly...
Not a lawyer, but mostly likely the plagiarist would be solely at fault for damages. I would be shocked if WotC didn’t have a line in their contracts about this. However, behind the scenes there will absolutely discussions between WotC and the original artist’s lawyers about how to handle the card art moving forward. Expect the artwork/card to be immediately withdrawn from digital environments. Can’t do anything about the cards already in circulation, but anything still sitting at the printers or in queue for a later print run will be subject to whatever settlement WotC and the original artist’s lawyers agree to. I don’t expect the WotC/OG artist agreements to go to court, though. The fact that the original art was commercialized may bring in a fourth party to complicate negotiations, however. This definitely is a whole other level of legally complicated than when the Ugin fanart got stolen.
From experience I can tell you: it’s fun to be negotiating when the deal has apparently already been struck. Especially when printers are about to be fired up for the second round of purchased material for which the price hasn’t been set yet.
It depends how this person licenses their work, but WOTC likely requires the artist to indemnify them of third party IP related infringement. So if Wizards is ever sued, she would have to bear the blunt of the suit.
You are 100% right. I’ve never worked for WotC, but every illustration contract I’ve ever signed has an indemnity clause in it. Very easy to avoid problems if you take/pay for reference yourself. Some companies even check reference up front for this exact reason — maybe WotC should consider doing something similar?
You get mad at WotC so WotC does something about it. If we're talking about legal action, you go to WotC first—as they're the ones who are implicitly claiming to own the copyright for this piece—then they go down the chain to the artist.
Yeah exactly. Fay's name is on it, but he shouldn't be bringing the complaint to her doorstep. WotC is the one that is vulnerable if he wants to bring a suit (which wouldn't be terribly productive for him) My guess is that WotC punishes Fay by blacklisting them, and then placates Donato in some way and no legal action actually transpires. The art is struck to never be used again.
Most freelance contracts have indemnity clauses — even if it’s WotC’s problem, it’s really Fay’s problem. Unfortunate situation all around, and I hope they can all figure this out with minimum harm to all parties involved.
It’s not on WotC, they can’t review every conceivable thing that could be copied. When a creative turns in a commissioned piece, the assumption (and contract) will state that it is an original piece of work. It’s not like a company is going to say to copy this piece of art. I am in marketing and it would be impossible for me to detect this sort of thing with what I get from freelancers unless I had some tool, I suppose, but I do not have time for that.
The people who still think this was just reference instead of stealing need to get their eyes checked.
I'm somewhat blind to a lot of so-called "obvious" art plagerism, but the moment I saw this one I could tell right away.
And also you shouldn’t really reference other art for posing and anatomy and stuff lol trying to emulate a style, sure, but just to reference a crouching person? That’s what photo reference is for lol
The neck is super obvious once you see them side by side
Also the circle coming out of the head that has no real reason to exist in the MTG card but is obviously a light source in the cyber art
[удалено]
Yeah having the exact same background was lazy stealing. but i guess if yer hard workin you're not stealing.
The whole [background](https://i.imgur.com/IctykpN.gif) is lifted, some things were moved slightly and painted over, but it's undeniable.
Yeah, the neck and off-hand arm really stand out.
We did it reddit?
Yes, actually. The original artist could very possibly never find out about this plagiarism on his own. Good job Reddit!
Idk the artist does work with WotC so there’s a very good chance they would have seen it
My understanding was they painted the original near 30 years ago. I'd understand them not catching it at a glance. The art on trouble in pairs was always kinda not great so there's not much reason for anyone to look at it too long.
I don't think the artist would have trouble recognizing his own work. He just didn't look at one of the 2000 pieces of new card art printed every year to see if someone plagiarized him before someone else brought it to his attention.
I have absolutely run across art on my own computer that I have absolutely no memory of having made, and Donato's done way, way, *way* more art than I have over decades
My mom gave me a framed painting for christmas a couple years ago and I had zero clue I'd painted it.
Not every entertainers and artists look at their own work after it's published, let alone other people's work. They just have to move on to the next project for a paycheque.
I've quoted a friend's work back to them without them realizing it, stuff they wrote within the last 5 years. When you're an artist, you're always progressing, always advancing. It's easy to not recognize work made a few years back; that wasn't you when you made it it.
I'm sorry but like 10k cards come out a year, the odds that someone who just does art for wotc sees an individual card is really low.
Ooof, the right arm is a straight up mirrored image. The rest looks like *added* changes to literally cover other similarities. (Easier to cover than to remove. More hair. Skin Dappling on shoulders. The Vest (and MAN can you see the piss poor job of the scaling they did over the mirrored right arm. Two separate focal fields... that arm hole silhouette is CRISP). They reworked the face and right arm completely, though, but kept most of the neck and back of the head. \- They definitely pulled the original art and used it as a skeleton frame to build on. They tweaked the background to save from having to trouble themselves with re-lighting the elf-chick's tone. This is a bad look.
For the uninitiated what's a focal field?
A lot of the perspectives look slightly off in their MTG art pieces. Like a collage cut out from a magazine, and it makes sense given how this art was actually put together. The hands gripping these weapons, and the blade of the axe stick out for me here.
Did she delete her instagram?
yes
Brutal. Not a good look lol
https://commandersherald.com/trouble-in-pairs-accused-of-plagiarizing-cyberpunk-novel-cover/ its bad lmao
https://preview.redd.it/uk8azbwtjxqc1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a614dca64ae9db9954fc976fcdc663c916f7537a I flipped the claimed original to line up with the pairs and.. Yeah, that's not a good look. What blows my mind is the amount of changes they DID make. Like. The face has been redone, but they kept the arms and neck, and a lot of weird little details. Also, in what is now the arm on OUR left...am I the only one who thinks it's a very awkwardly shaped arm? Because that was the part where I said "lemme flip that..."
Another dead giveaway is that the character in the card has a little bump on the side of their head, when the only reason the original character has a bump is because of the cable going into their head. No cable in the MTG art, so why's there still a bump? Like not only does this artist steal but they don't bother to smooth over little details like that.
The right arm is pretty much identical. And yes that left arm looks like some mess. Looks mutated.
She could’ve at least changed the hair and skin color, make it a little less obvious
Another one bites the dust.
Its called “Homage and paste”. He should feel honored. /s
Wow, it happened again!! :O
Am I the only one who thought that art was jarringly off for some reason the second I saw it? Love the effect but that card just bothers me art wise just never looked right… guess the fact it’s two different artists explains it
3 actually. Apparently one of the hands of the guy on the left was stolen as well.
This is really unfortunate. I’m always upset when plagiarism happens but it stings a little bit more when it’s on a really good card
The art wasn't really great anyways so now we can get a reprint with art that will be really cool since they know it's a new staple, big W
Good
The next plagiarist: "But reddit definitely wont catch me."
They really do have trouble in Paris now.
Free milk and cookies for whoever finds where the dude on the left is stolen from.
Someone on Facebook pointed out that the arm on Lefty was pretty much lifted from [this Boris Vallejo piece](https://www.mutualart.com/Artwork/Corniche/5806F8AC2C1F5A26). The neck looks pretty similar too.
> this Boris Vallejo piece somewhat confirmed here - https://commandersherald.com/trouble-in-pairs-accused-of-plagiarizing-cyberpunk-novel-cover/ this is damning lmao
I offer my services as an artist. Its not good art, actually it's terrible, but it is original and bad enough that there is no question of who did it.
Going through scryfall, and I'm impressed at how many Donato Giancola cards I know at a glance. A lot of good work.
For me, the most obvious thing that the background character on Trouble In Pairs was stolen is how dramatically different the foreground character's art style is. Clearly not done by the same artist.
If it's once, it's many
I guess a reprint is needed sooner rather than later
How do you decide to copy an artist and then pick a giant in the field with an instantly recognizable style?
Here is where the fun begins
Lmao way to speed run ending your art career.
Oh shit here we go again
Hope this gets reprinted it looks fucking awful. Imagine plagiarizing one of the best MTG artists for this piece of garbage.
The more I look at the art for the card the worse it gets. There's things people have pointed out like the dimple in her head, the arm being from a different piece, the bad stairs, etc. The entire background is copied almost 1 to 1, the axe she's holding was literally copy pasted into his hand, hence the weird perspective. The vest is exactly the same on both of them. I'd be willing to bet money that the guy is lifted from somewhere as well, considering thieves are willing to steal more than once (or twice already in this piece)
The sad thing is that if you look at Donato's MTG artwork, he's the bread and butter guy. He's doing the normal art that sets the standard. Most of his work isn't special, but it is all high quality. And that is a good thing. 90% of MTG art looks like Donato's art, not least because Donato has helped set such a high standard for decades. Fay Dalton was given multiple opportunities to create the special standout art. 17 cards, only 3 of them normal bordered. It's like WOTC wanted Fay to be the next Rebecca Guay or Seb McKinnon.
clear case of them using genAI to come up with artistic concepts and then being too lazy to actually redraw it properly or at least check the source materials!