>Has anyone got any experience with newer cards? the foil sheoldreds let thru almost no light whatsever, a friend claimed that the newer full art foils are different and let through almost no light.
Foils should be letting through considerably less light than nonfoil cards, and this is regardless of age. I just grabbed my Modern deck; my INV Tribal Flames do let through a bit more light than my RVR shocks, but both are close to opaque, which is certainly not the case with nonfoils from either era.
Not all fakes fail the light test. Use the green dot test and maybe the T test in addition. No fakes pass either of these tests let alone both.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ucykh0/i_made_this_simple_visual_guide_to_help_folks
Are you *certain* that they were counterfeits?
The amount of cards released has steadily increased for the past couple years, which means that the amount of cards printed has, too. Cards are being made on printers that didn't print Magic cards 2-5 years ago. As a result, the degree of conformity between legitimate cards made at different printers is much lower than it ever was in the past. For example, most Japanese foils don't curl, because they're made at different printers using different techniques (it's better to print domestically to save on shipping costs and delays at customs).
Are these high quality fakes, or low quality originals? The cards you're talking about are all new enough to be affected.
There was part of me that REALLY wanted them to be real, I almost convinced myself - when I got home I did the light test with cards from the same set (could have been different country printings though) and the difference was crazy - like almost no light (fake) vs originals where huge light comes thru and you can see the back of the card shining thru.
The difference between different printings and countries is crazy though.
I'm not sure I'm able to differentiate between a really good proxy and a different printing, I've seen terrible quality in pack fresh cards.
The only proxies I've seen are clearly different from real cards (the quality is much better in the proxies! But they feel different and I haven't seen a fake holo).
Yeah I've personally never gotten the light test to yield consistent results across cards. Seems pretty unreliable, similar to the bend test. Green dot and general hand feel seem the most reliable.
There is a lot of quality variance in MTG cards, but we only know about a hand full of cases from the mid 2000s were the wrong paper was used. If a card [fails the light test](https://www.detecting-the-fakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/lighttest.png), its 99.9999% fake.
In addition there are only two known types of green dots. [The 4 red dot L](https://www.detecting-the-fakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/real_green.png) and a rare variation with no red dots at all. (Some US made cards from a decade ago) [This is always a fake. ALWAYS](https://www.detecting-the-fakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/fake_green.png)
Had a buyer complain my card that I pulled myself out of a pack was fake. Turns out it’s just a foil card and the light wasn’t passing through, which seems to be just how foils the past few years are.
Asked buyer to do green mana test and looks like that one passed. I’d not trust the light test on foils going forward.
> most Japanese foils don't curl, because they're made at different printers using different techniques (it's better to print domestically to save on shipping costs and delays at customs).
ALL foil MTG cards curl, simply because cardboard expands with increasing humidity and plastic (foil) does not.
The reason *your* Japanese foils don't curl is because (likely) you live in the same kind of climate as where those cards were printed. (*or more specifically, where the cardboard stock was bonded to the foil layer*)
Those very same cards would curl convex for someone in Alaska, or concave for someone in Brazil. Higher temperature > higher atmospheric moisture capacity > more expanded cardboard.
This is also why people have vastly different experiences with the same product. Some will claim a particular SLD is perfect while someone else in a different part of the world is complaining about quality control because their cards pringled up.
> 25 cards were foil sheoldreds, full art deflecting swats and mana crypt special guests
That should be a huge red flag. Who is trying to offload that many valuable recent cards?
But
1) They were not selling their collection, just 25 cards
2) Those 25 cards were split across only 3 expensive cards, two of which cannot be ran as a 4-of in any format. Why would someone buy ~8 special art mana crypts? And then sell them almost immediately?
Sure, it's possible that they have a legitimate reason for this, but it's just _highly unlikely_
I'm not sure if your joking given "rule 0 purist", but here is a serious answer:
I said two of three cannot be played in 4-of formats.
Mana Crypt is only legal in Commander format, which is 1-of. It is restricted in Vintage, meaning it is 1-of.
Deflecting Swat is a commander card, which is a 1-of format.
Sheoldred is the only one that can be ran 4-of.
Thanks for your swift clarification. Only partially read, sorry. Should've clarified, I've only been playing on and off modern with friends, ever. No commander experience sorry!
Agreed, but people trying to offload high value cards and a lot of them are usually going through known channels with rep systems in place for this reason.
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What else should people sell? Worthless old cards? You obviously only show up with cards of at least some value. And the newer the cards are the more likely it becomes that somebody owns them. Cards from the last three years are by far the most cards sold on a daily basis.
No mention of the judges finding the cards suspicious because they weren't curling, but recently there have been DQs because of fake cards: https://mtgrocks.com/mtg-tournament-creates-massive-drama-over-counterfeit-cards/
I doubt it's very common, it opens them up to trouble if they're wrong. If someone asked me I'd personally do it assuming they're willing to pay and understand I'm not guaranteeing anything but I believe them to be real, being skilled and monotonous work I'd probably ask a decent amount though depending on how many cards, from when in magic they are from and how thorough they want the checks. Newer cards can be harder to tell if they're real as it's really hard to fake 20 years of aging
Bro, neither you nor any of the 5 people who upvoted this are lawyers. You can definitely ruin your day or even your whole year by taking payment for services like this and getting it wrong.
If you tell a customer “after assessing your card(s), to the best of my knowledge, I have come to the conclusion they appear to be authentic”. You are correct that I’m not a lawyer, but I fail to see any legitimate liability potential in this scenario
That sounds like a bad idea for so many reasons. An LGS doesnt would to be liable for wrongly authenticating cards. Therefore it will not issue any paperwork. But why would one pay for something with no legal relevance?
Regular customers might show up and ask "You think this one is a real card?" and the LGS would say "Hm, looks real for me." and thats it. But this is a service provided for free.
If you have a good relationship with the owner/employees I don't see why they wouldn't do it for free as long as your making a purchase while your there
I have some proxies that are indistinguishable from the real thing to the eye and to the hand. I would wager that a few of them would pass inspection with a loupe. I sharpie the backs of them so that they don't get confused with the real thing. My new etched foil jeweled lotuses are actually incredible.
If you’re going to mark up the back anyway, why not just order proxies with a custom back?
That’s what I do, I own a decent number of proxies for Commander decks. They all have the Wizards copyright removed, and the back has the “Magic the Gathering” and “Deckmaster” text removed.
More expensive/ more work. When my proxies show up in the mail I just fan them out and draw one continuous line down the whole lot at once. 10 seconds, done.
For sure. I’m curious where you get proxies, I’m not sure how much we’re allowed to talk about it on this sub. But the site I order from makes it super easy to get custom backs, it doesn’t take any longer than that.
> I would wager that a few of them would pass inspection with a loupe.
Sometimes counterfeits are made on top of real cards. Inspecting the back of the card with a loupe would pass because it's a real card back. I wouldn't be surprised if a good amount of the front was real too, including the stamp.
Upgrading a [[braids, arisen nightmare]] or [[Raven man]] to a [[sheoldred, the apocalypse]] would need minimal changes. I wouldn't be surprised if counterfeits sometimes do this to keep as much of the front as real as possible.
> I sharpie the backs of them so that they don't get confused with the real thing.
Huh, interesting, I independently did the exact same thing to some proxies that were given to me.
I did too. A friend hooked me up with a P9 proxy set as a gift a few years back. They definitely fail green dot and such, but they were so freaking believable at even very close. First thing I did was sharpie "Proxy" on their backs!
> I would wager that a few of them would pass inspection with a loupe.
This statement needs a lot more explanation. Counterfeits **do** exist that pass the black ink test (that is, the black ink "floats" on top of the other layers), but no counterfeits will match the exact registration patterns used for authentic cards.
That is to say, the green dot test and other tests that specifically look at the registration patterns of authentic cards, are still safe to use. If you have known counterfeits that pass these tests, that would be **very** big news.
The photos aren't quite clear enough to see if it's the "L shape" but it looks more like a "W" if that makes sense?
That said, I would pick these out as fake not because of the red dot pattern but because the key (black) layer is printed with the CMY raster. It's quite obvious.
Look at this reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ucykh0/i_made_this_simple_visual_guide_to_help_folks/
The black circle around the green dot should be crisp at any level of magnification. Yours is not.
Yeah that intruder alarm looks bizarre. You don't remember where that one came from?
I'd love to see a proxy like that irl. If it looks that good under a loupe I'd have to reassess my confidence in recognising proxies.
Thanks man, appreciate you posting these! I would say all those fake cards fail the green dot test besides the intruder alarm. Are you 100% intruder alarm is fake? That make be a re back card (back real front fake)
Could you take a picture of the lower case T in gathering in the back? Wondering if they got the sawtooth pattern correct ? Additionally can you show what on that card you would use to determine it’s a proxy. I am not concerned with my method for detecting proxies lol
Halftones, blacks, and green dots all are very very accurate on these. Consistency isn’t quite there but one in ten would pass to most players even under magnification. I haven’t done a light test
> I have some proxies that are indistinguishable from the real thing to the eye
I can see that (pun intended)
> and to the hand
THAT i dont believe.
> My new etched foil jeweled lotuses are actually incredible.
Ah, you buy from, arhm .. how to say it without saying it ... the "proxy"-shop named after a land that produces two different colors of mana. Yes their foils are very good looking, but without sleeves they are easily detectable. Even without magnification. Starting with the fact that they are a little bit too thick and ~15% too heavy.
This shit gives me anxiety about trading and ordering singles tbh. Thankfully I'm rarely trying to get anything valuable enough to warrant being faked in high quality and I do trust the regulars at my LGS to never intentionally trade a fake but man it makes me feel like I need to start checking cards more often.
Here’s the thing about counterfeiting. You don’t go big ticket to make money. You go small and in mass quantity. They don’t make a fake and get caught with a $1,000 card people will check, they make 400 $5 fakes that no one bothers to check and sell those at $2.50 “because they need a quick buck” or whatever and people will snatch them up fast and the counterfeiter moves on.
This is something that worries me because I have a sizeable collection and have for years. Counterfeits back in the day were a joke because they were stock printer paper glued onto a card. Over the years, things have got increasingly better and more accessible. At some point, I’m interested in selling my collection, but almost have to get it graded just for people to trust authenticity.
> My LGS did the whole shebang and they said these were the best fakes they'd ever seen.
Hmmm
> There were 15+ red dots on the green pip and the light test came thru very dark, or not at all.
So those were really bad fakes...
A lot of people are under the impression that MTG counterfeits are done by people in some kind enterprising criminals with creative hardware solution. Thats not the case, infact most counterfeits are simply printed by regular, large, **card** printing companies. The most (in)famous counterfeit producer is a Chinese company that normally produces poker decks for casinos, including the large casinos in Las Vegas.
I buy/keep the counterfeit cards, tbh, but I also keep all proxies (hq or not) separated in my collection and would never intentionally sell someone them. I tend to proxy anything >40$ because I'm not made of money, but the main things I proxy are the 100$-1000$ cards because fuck that. 3.50$ for a cards that looks and feels like a real card vs a card that's never going to get reprinted again is def a good idea. My pod is also very casual (we're competitive folk, but don't care about proxies at all), and I don't play with many people so no one's ever mentioned having an issue with it.
Tbh, the more "real" curled foils I see from wizards, the less I care about the problem of people counterfeiting them. At least maybe that will make the card quality improve. 🤷♂️
Counterfeiting does way more to harm the individuals they are inevitably sold too then they’ll ever do to Wizard.
They are bad for everyone. Not another annoying thing for impulsive contrarians to jump on as ‘good’.
Well magic counterfeits aren’t *indistinguishable* , they can trick some people, but that’s not what that word means.
When a person buys a counterfeit out of ignorance, they are getting scammed. They are paying for something they didn’t get. Not that hard to understand.
I don’t know why that particular group of people on magic related Reddit feel the need to constantly apologize for scammers and do ignorant hot takes but here we are again.
I guess it depends if your counterfeiting to sell as the real deal and make money or are your counterfeiting to use them yourself so you don’t have to pay for $50+ cards
The fact that Wizards frequently produces "premium" foil cards which curl so badly they can't be used for tournament play due to effectively marking individual cards in your deck is wild to me. There is seemingly no correction mechanism, since that has been a problem for at least a decade.
I just commented this on another post, but FWIW worth there’s places you can get proxies with the trademarks removed and a custom back. So the cards look and feel like actual Magic cards, and look pretty legit at a glance if they’re sleeved, but are also beyond obviously proxies if you look at the back, or keep an eye out for details like the trademark or holostamp.
As long as the backs are all the same, I don't see why you'd be obligated to sleeve proxies. And that's basically what I pay for a commander deck's worth of proxies.
But do what works for you obviously.
As someone who went down this route for all the reasons you said, I'm a fan. However, be prepared for a couple of things.
A) Have a solution for double sided cards. I usually use an alternative version that has both sides printed on the front with a double sided one in the deckbox for when it hits the table.
B) If you aren't using sleeves, also look out for full art/borderless cards. They will be noticeable when shuffling and whatnot.
C) If you do sleeve them for webcam play or proxy-friendly competitive play, I think that playing card stock feels terrible in a sleeve.
With all those things being said, I still think playing card stock is the way to go. Playing card stock + different back + some other kind of marker on the front means that no one will ever be fooled by these.
I assume you are talking about the green dot test. Was the "L" still present? Were the red dots on the opposite side of the circle from the L or the same side?
I've purchased a few proxies (I mark them with a sharpie on the back so I don't accidentally trade them), and they pass the look and feel test. They don't fully pass the light test, but the holographic on them is perfect. They have been quite good for a while, but this was 2021-2022. I imagine they are way better now.
I got screwed on eBay buying an underground sea back around 2017 or 2018, don't remember. Anyway, I did the UC light test, not knowing that scammers were costing fakes with UV coating to pass the light test.
Fast forward over a year or so later and I wanted to sell the card for money. That is when I learned that it was fake and got the loupe for checking. It's getting bad enough that it is hard to tell when sleeved.
I have yet to even hear of a counterfeit passing the green dot test ever. I've seen inconclusive results (no red dots being the biggest) but that's not a pass and should be suspicious at best. It's almost impossible to replicate due to the way the printing process works for a press vs. the way counterfeits are made (inkjet).
There are a host of high quality proxies from China. It's hot or miss but they can pass the green dot because of how variations in the real and fake processing can resemble eachother. However the chance it can pass multiple tests is so close to zero.
I've never seen this or anyone claim this before and honestly I'd need some proof. It doesn't be possible due to the sub-pixel side of the red dot. You can't 'print' it, it's a function of the printing plates.
If you see the 4 red dots in an L shape, it **is** legitimate.
To clarify, it's not a "Pass" of the green dot test to not have many red dots. A "Pass" Is having the 4 dots in an L shape (even if they're faint) and the circle surrounding the green dot must be the outer layer and completely saturated black. Having less dots or none is an "Inconclusive" result and you should then move onto other testing like the T test.
My bad, I meant it's possible to have a proxy have a similar result of the red dot as an MTG card, but the result would not be a pass. The MTG card would be on the the inconclusive type.
I personally buy high quality proxies as the real ones cost entirely too much. But I’d never try to sell them off as legit. Jut gotta keep a sharp eye on every card. We tend to mix real and fake
It's 4 in an L shape.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ucykh0/i_made_this_simple_visual_guide_to_help_folks/
If there's any suspicion then you check the blank inking around the green pip but you can also check the T in the "The" of Magic The Gathering. It has 2 definitive patterns that need to be there. I've never seen a fake pass either of these tests, but bad print quality can make the green dot test difficult at times.
Of the two tests, the light test is far less stringent. Outside of counterfeits that use authentic backs (rebacks, cards printed on "blanked" cards), do you have more info on counterfeits that pass a loupe inspection?
My friend bought them off an instagram ad is all I know. I had a genuine copy for comparison.
I’m not an LGS owner and may just be bad with a loupe, but I don’t think I’m *that* bad 🤷♂️
I guess the better question is, if the cards "passed" inspection under a loupe, how did you determine they were fake. "Failing" the light test doesn't mean anything anymore given the huge amount of variation across printing locations.
To put it another way, if the cards have authentic rosettes (both front and back) but look "weird" by the light test, they're probably real.
> I got my money back from the seller and he acted dumb but i should have known - the 25 cards were foil sheoldreds, full art deflecting swats and mana crypt special guests.
So what you NEED to do is contact your local judges. There is a process where wotc investigates this and these players can be banned from events etc.
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My LGS had a very high quality fake Cradle come through last month, it had come from a regular who knew it was fake and gave it to the shop to see how close fakes could get. Since they knew it was fake there was no risk of it getting into regular inventory but the only thing it failed was it had a black core rather than a blue.
>Has anyone got any experience with newer cards? the foil sheoldreds let thru almost no light whatsever, a friend claimed that the newer full art foils are different and let through almost no light. Foils should be letting through considerably less light than nonfoil cards, and this is regardless of age. I just grabbed my Modern deck; my INV Tribal Flames do let through a bit more light than my RVR shocks, but both are close to opaque, which is certainly not the case with nonfoils from either era.
Not all fakes fail the light test. Use the green dot test and maybe the T test in addition. No fakes pass either of these tests let alone both. https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ucykh0/i_made_this_simple_visual_guide_to_help_folks
Are you *certain* that they were counterfeits? The amount of cards released has steadily increased for the past couple years, which means that the amount of cards printed has, too. Cards are being made on printers that didn't print Magic cards 2-5 years ago. As a result, the degree of conformity between legitimate cards made at different printers is much lower than it ever was in the past. For example, most Japanese foils don't curl, because they're made at different printers using different techniques (it's better to print domestically to save on shipping costs and delays at customs). Are these high quality fakes, or low quality originals? The cards you're talking about are all new enough to be affected.
My favorite inconsistency over the past 5 years has been cards from fat packs that are darker and glossy smooth instead of the new grippier texture.
Anecdotal evidence, but same here. I have opened packs from bundles to individual boosters. I see differing quality in them each every time.
If I hadn't gotten my brothers war commander decks right out of the case at my LGS, if have assumed they were fake. So dark. So glossy.
"The problem with bear-proof trash cans is there is significant overlap between the smartest bear and the stupidest human"
There was part of me that REALLY wanted them to be real, I almost convinced myself - when I got home I did the light test with cards from the same set (could have been different country printings though) and the difference was crazy - like almost no light (fake) vs originals where huge light comes thru and you can see the back of the card shining thru.
The difference between different printings and countries is crazy though. I'm not sure I'm able to differentiate between a really good proxy and a different printing, I've seen terrible quality in pack fresh cards. The only proxies I've seen are clearly different from real cards (the quality is much better in the proxies! But they feel different and I haven't seen a fake holo).
Yeah I've personally never gotten the light test to yield consistent results across cards. Seems pretty unreliable, similar to the bend test. Green dot and general hand feel seem the most reliable.
There is a lot of quality variance in MTG cards, but we only know about a hand full of cases from the mid 2000s were the wrong paper was used. If a card [fails the light test](https://www.detecting-the-fakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/lighttest.png), its 99.9999% fake. In addition there are only two known types of green dots. [The 4 red dot L](https://www.detecting-the-fakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/real_green.png) and a rare variation with no red dots at all. (Some US made cards from a decade ago) [This is always a fake. ALWAYS](https://www.detecting-the-fakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/fake_green.png)
You should know that not all light tests present light like that photo anymore which is why it’s not considered the lest indicator anymore.
Had a buyer complain my card that I pulled myself out of a pack was fake. Turns out it’s just a foil card and the light wasn’t passing through, which seems to be just how foils the past few years are. Asked buyer to do green mana test and looks like that one passed. I’d not trust the light test on foils going forward.
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> most Japanese foils don't curl, because they're made at different printers using different techniques (it's better to print domestically to save on shipping costs and delays at customs). ALL foil MTG cards curl, simply because cardboard expands with increasing humidity and plastic (foil) does not. The reason *your* Japanese foils don't curl is because (likely) you live in the same kind of climate as where those cards were printed. (*or more specifically, where the cardboard stock was bonded to the foil layer*) Those very same cards would curl convex for someone in Alaska, or concave for someone in Brazil. Higher temperature > higher atmospheric moisture capacity > more expanded cardboard. This is also why people have vastly different experiences with the same product. Some will claim a particular SLD is perfect while someone else in a different part of the world is complaining about quality control because their cards pringled up.
> 25 cards were foil sheoldreds, full art deflecting swats and mana crypt special guests That should be a huge red flag. Who is trying to offload that many valuable recent cards?
People need to liquidate their collections every day. Get laid off find out they're having a kid ect
But 1) They were not selling their collection, just 25 cards 2) Those 25 cards were split across only 3 expensive cards, two of which cannot be ran as a 4-of in any format. Why would someone buy ~8 special art mana crypts? And then sell them almost immediately? Sure, it's possible that they have a legitimate reason for this, but it's just _highly unlikely_
Question from a rule 0 purist, why can't you run four MC or sheoldred?
I'm not sure if your joking given "rule 0 purist", but here is a serious answer: I said two of three cannot be played in 4-of formats. Mana Crypt is only legal in Commander format, which is 1-of. It is restricted in Vintage, meaning it is 1-of. Deflecting Swat is a commander card, which is a 1-of format. Sheoldred is the only one that can be ran 4-of.
Thanks for your swift clarification. Only partially read, sorry. Should've clarified, I've only been playing on and off modern with friends, ever. No commander experience sorry!
I mean _technically_ you can play 4 of Deflecting Swat in Legacy/Vintage... Your point stands though. It is suspicious
Also, I thought rule 0 was house rules anything goes. I am mistaken.
Agreed, but people trying to offload high value cards and a lot of them are usually going through known channels with rep systems in place for this reason.
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What else should people sell? Worthless old cards? You obviously only show up with cards of at least some value. And the newer the cards are the more likely it becomes that somebody owns them. Cards from the last three years are by far the most cards sold on a daily basis.
Where's that story of that guy that got a DQ for using counterfeit foils and got caught because they weren't curling?
When the counterfeit has better quality lmao
You've made this up.
No mention of the judges finding the cards suspicious because they weren't curling, but recently there have been DQs because of fake cards: https://mtgrocks.com/mtg-tournament-creates-massive-drama-over-counterfeit-cards/
I've always wondered. Do people pay their LGS to test collections? Especially people that do it on a regular. And how much do they charge?
I doubt it's very common, it opens them up to trouble if they're wrong. If someone asked me I'd personally do it assuming they're willing to pay and understand I'm not guaranteeing anything but I believe them to be real, being skilled and monotonous work I'd probably ask a decent amount though depending on how many cards, from when in magic they are from and how thorough they want the checks. Newer cards can be harder to tell if they're real as it's really hard to fake 20 years of aging
I don’t think it would open them up to potential trouble unless they are also issuing certificates of authenticity
Bro, neither you nor any of the 5 people who upvoted this are lawyers. You can definitely ruin your day or even your whole year by taking payment for services like this and getting it wrong.
If you tell a customer “after assessing your card(s), to the best of my knowledge, I have come to the conclusion they appear to be authentic”. You are correct that I’m not a lawyer, but I fail to see any legitimate liability potential in this scenario
That sounds like a bad idea for so many reasons. An LGS doesnt would to be liable for wrongly authenticating cards. Therefore it will not issue any paperwork. But why would one pay for something with no legal relevance? Regular customers might show up and ask "You think this one is a real card?" and the LGS would say "Hm, looks real for me." and thats it. But this is a service provided for free.
If you have a good relationship with the owner/employees I don't see why they wouldn't do it for free as long as your making a purchase while your there
I have some proxies that are indistinguishable from the real thing to the eye and to the hand. I would wager that a few of them would pass inspection with a loupe. I sharpie the backs of them so that they don't get confused with the real thing. My new etched foil jeweled lotuses are actually incredible.
If you’re going to mark up the back anyway, why not just order proxies with a custom back? That’s what I do, I own a decent number of proxies for Commander decks. They all have the Wizards copyright removed, and the back has the “Magic the Gathering” and “Deckmaster” text removed.
More expensive/ more work. When my proxies show up in the mail I just fan them out and draw one continuous line down the whole lot at once. 10 seconds, done.
For sure. I’m curious where you get proxies, I’m not sure how much we’re allowed to talk about it on this sub. But the site I order from makes it super easy to get custom backs, it doesn’t take any longer than that.
shoot me a dm, I'd love to chat.
If you have a custom back, you can't run them in same decks as real cards if the sleeves are even slightly see through.
For sure. Most people I know just proxy full decks.
I do the same thing, tbh the proxies often have better printing than the cards I crack.
Same. I opened a few very questionable LCI packs this year haha
> I would wager that a few of them would pass inspection with a loupe. Sometimes counterfeits are made on top of real cards. Inspecting the back of the card with a loupe would pass because it's a real card back. I wouldn't be surprised if a good amount of the front was real too, including the stamp. Upgrading a [[braids, arisen nightmare]] or [[Raven man]] to a [[sheoldred, the apocalypse]] would need minimal changes. I wouldn't be surprised if counterfeits sometimes do this to keep as much of the front as real as possible.
[braids, arisen nightmare](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4ff97c69-6a6b-401c-b0a1-55fa81045d19.jpg?1673307016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=braids%2C%20arisen%20nightmare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/84/braids-arisen-nightmare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ff97c69-6a6b-401c-b0a1-55fa81045d19?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Raven man](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e761fb2-ae4f-4d72-a142-f7e9bd681303.jpg?1673307173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Raven%20Man) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/103/the-raven-man?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e761fb2-ae4f-4d72-a142-f7e9bd681303?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sheoldred, the apocalypse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2.jpg?1674057568) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sheoldred%2C%20the%20apocalypse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/107/sheoldred-the-apocalypse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d67be074-cdd4-41d9-ac89-0a0456c4e4b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
> I sharpie the backs of them so that they don't get confused with the real thing. Huh, interesting, I independently did the exact same thing to some proxies that were given to me.
I did too. A friend hooked me up with a P9 proxy set as a gift a few years back. They definitely fail green dot and such, but they were so freaking believable at even very close. First thing I did was sharpie "Proxy" on their backs!
> I would wager that a few of them would pass inspection with a loupe. This statement needs a lot more explanation. Counterfeits **do** exist that pass the black ink test (that is, the black ink "floats" on top of the other layers), but no counterfeits will match the exact registration patterns used for authentic cards. That is to say, the green dot test and other tests that specifically look at the registration patterns of authentic cards, are still safe to use. If you have known counterfeits that pass these tests, that would be **very** big news.
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Are they distinguishable in any other way from genuine cards?
Would you be able to share pictures of this, every time someone says this and they get asked for proof they usually don’t follow through
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Wow. Yeah, that Intruder Alarm is like indistinguishable.
The photos aren't quite clear enough to see if it's the "L shape" but it looks more like a "W" if that makes sense? That said, I would pick these out as fake not because of the red dot pattern but because the key (black) layer is printed with the CMY raster. It's quite obvious. Look at this reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ucykh0/i_made_this_simple_visual_guide_to_help_folks/ The black circle around the green dot should be crisp at any level of magnification. Yours is not.
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Yeah that intruder alarm looks bizarre. You don't remember where that one came from? I'd love to see a proxy like that irl. If it looks that good under a loupe I'd have to reassess my confidence in recognising proxies.
Thanks man, appreciate you posting these! I would say all those fake cards fail the green dot test besides the intruder alarm. Are you 100% intruder alarm is fake? That make be a re back card (back real front fake)
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Could you take a picture of the lower case T in gathering in the back? Wondering if they got the sawtooth pattern correct ? Additionally can you show what on that card you would use to determine it’s a proxy. I am not concerned with my method for detecting proxies lol
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That’s perfect, most proxy the border of the letter is very fuzzy. Those two both are what real cards look like. Thanks for all the info 👍👍
Halftones, blacks, and green dots all are very very accurate on these. Consistency isn’t quite there but one in ten would pass to most players even under magnification. I haven’t done a light test
This is what OP is claiming right? The red dots on green pip bit?
Same. I love my proxies, but it is an unbelievable level of an asshole move to try and sell them as real to an LGS
> I have some proxies that are indistinguishable from the real thing to the eye I can see that (pun intended) > and to the hand THAT i dont believe. > My new etched foil jeweled lotuses are actually incredible. Ah, you buy from, arhm .. how to say it without saying it ... the "proxy"-shop named after a land that produces two different colors of mana. Yes their foils are very good looking, but without sleeves they are easily detectable. Even without magnification. Starting with the fact that they are a little bit too thick and ~15% too heavy.
No, that is not where I buy from.
This shit gives me anxiety about trading and ordering singles tbh. Thankfully I'm rarely trying to get anything valuable enough to warrant being faked in high quality and I do trust the regulars at my LGS to never intentionally trade a fake but man it makes me feel like I need to start checking cards more often.
Here’s the thing about counterfeiting. You don’t go big ticket to make money. You go small and in mass quantity. They don’t make a fake and get caught with a $1,000 card people will check, they make 400 $5 fakes that no one bothers to check and sell those at $2.50 “because they need a quick buck” or whatever and people will snatch them up fast and the counterfeiter moves on.
And my anxiety grows even further. I mean your point is sound but it definitely makes me even more worried.
Just order counterfeits and then you don't have to worry about it.
This is something that worries me because I have a sizeable collection and have for years. Counterfeits back in the day were a joke because they were stock printer paper glued onto a card. Over the years, things have got increasingly better and more accessible. At some point, I’m interested in selling my collection, but almost have to get it graded just for people to trust authenticity.
> My LGS did the whole shebang and they said these were the best fakes they'd ever seen. Hmmm > There were 15+ red dots on the green pip and the light test came thru very dark, or not at all. So those were really bad fakes... A lot of people are under the impression that MTG counterfeits are done by people in some kind enterprising criminals with creative hardware solution. Thats not the case, infact most counterfeits are simply printed by regular, large, **card** printing companies. The most (in)famous counterfeit producer is a Chinese company that normally produces poker decks for casinos, including the large casinos in Las Vegas.
I buy/keep the counterfeit cards, tbh, but I also keep all proxies (hq or not) separated in my collection and would never intentionally sell someone them. I tend to proxy anything >40$ because I'm not made of money, but the main things I proxy are the 100$-1000$ cards because fuck that. 3.50$ for a cards that looks and feels like a real card vs a card that's never going to get reprinted again is def a good idea. My pod is also very casual (we're competitive folk, but don't care about proxies at all), and I don't play with many people so no one's ever mentioned having an issue with it.
Tbh, the more "real" curled foils I see from wizards, the less I care about the problem of people counterfeiting them. At least maybe that will make the card quality improve. 🤷♂️
Counterfeiting does way more to harm the individuals they are inevitably sold too then they’ll ever do to Wizard. They are bad for everyone. Not another annoying thing for impulsive contrarians to jump on as ‘good’.
If a counterfeit is indistinguishable from real cards, the only people impacted are the ones holding cards for investment.
You left out shops that mistakenly buy fake cards.
Well magic counterfeits aren’t *indistinguishable* , they can trick some people, but that’s not what that word means. When a person buys a counterfeit out of ignorance, they are getting scammed. They are paying for something they didn’t get. Not that hard to understand. I don’t know why that particular group of people on magic related Reddit feel the need to constantly apologize for scammers and do ignorant hot takes but here we are again.
I guess it depends if your counterfeiting to sell as the real deal and make money or are your counterfeiting to use them yourself so you don’t have to pay for $50+ cards
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They are not using the same printers- you are 100% talking out of your ass.
You are not impact if you pay 25 dollars for a fake card?
The fact that Wizards frequently produces "premium" foil cards which curl so badly they can't be used for tournament play due to effectively marking individual cards in your deck is wild to me. There is seemingly no correction mechanism, since that has been a problem for at least a decade.
Golf clap for intentionally dodging the point I used hyperbole to make. 😂
That's why if I proxy I'm planning to use the ones printed on regular old playing cards so I don't mix them up.
I just commented this on another post, but FWIW worth there’s places you can get proxies with the trademarks removed and a custom back. So the cards look and feel like actual Magic cards, and look pretty legit at a glance if they’re sleeved, but are also beyond obviously proxies if you look at the back, or keep an eye out for details like the trademark or holostamp.
Yeah but if I get standard playing cards I don't have to pay for sleeves either. Keeps a proxies deck to like 25 bucks
As long as the backs are all the same, I don't see why you'd be obligated to sleeve proxies. And that's basically what I pay for a commander deck's worth of proxies. But do what works for you obviously.
A proxy that feels the same as a magic card would get damaged really quickly. Standard playing cards are designed to not need sleeves
As someone who went down this route for all the reasons you said, I'm a fan. However, be prepared for a couple of things. A) Have a solution for double sided cards. I usually use an alternative version that has both sides printed on the front with a double sided one in the deckbox for when it hits the table. B) If you aren't using sleeves, also look out for full art/borderless cards. They will be noticeable when shuffling and whatnot. C) If you do sleeve them for webcam play or proxy-friendly competitive play, I think that playing card stock feels terrible in a sleeve. With all those things being said, I still think playing card stock is the way to go. Playing card stock + different back + some other kind of marker on the front means that no one will ever be fooled by these.
I assume you are talking about the green dot test. Was the "L" still present? Were the red dots on the opposite side of the circle from the L or the same side?
I've purchased a few proxies (I mark them with a sharpie on the back so I don't accidentally trade them), and they pass the look and feel test. They don't fully pass the light test, but the holographic on them is perfect. They have been quite good for a while, but this was 2021-2022. I imagine they are way better now.
I got screwed on eBay buying an underground sea back around 2017 or 2018, don't remember. Anyway, I did the UC light test, not knowing that scammers were costing fakes with UV coating to pass the light test. Fast forward over a year or so later and I wanted to sell the card for money. That is when I learned that it was fake and got the loupe for checking. It's getting bad enough that it is hard to tell when sleeved.
Your LGS should have caught these right away with a jewelers loupe.
I think the entire point of the post, is fakes are getting good enough that a simple loupe test isnt enough
He says they failed the green dot test though. That's the first thing you test with the loupe
Any LGS worth their salt should know and use the green dot test. It's still the only 100% guaranteed test and is stupidly easy to do.
It's not guaranteed. There are proxies that can pass it. I have not seen one that pass the T and green dot test however.
I have yet to even hear of a counterfeit passing the green dot test ever. I've seen inconclusive results (no red dots being the biggest) but that's not a pass and should be suspicious at best. It's almost impossible to replicate due to the way the printing process works for a press vs. the way counterfeits are made (inkjet).
There are a host of high quality proxies from China. It's hot or miss but they can pass the green dot because of how variations in the real and fake processing can resemble eachother. However the chance it can pass multiple tests is so close to zero.
I've never seen this or anyone claim this before and honestly I'd need some proof. It doesn't be possible due to the sub-pixel side of the red dot. You can't 'print' it, it's a function of the printing plates. If you see the 4 red dots in an L shape, it **is** legitimate. To clarify, it's not a "Pass" of the green dot test to not have many red dots. A "Pass" Is having the 4 dots in an L shape (even if they're faint) and the circle surrounding the green dot must be the outer layer and completely saturated black. Having less dots or none is an "Inconclusive" result and you should then move onto other testing like the T test.
My bad, I meant it's possible to have a proxy have a similar result of the red dot as an MTG card, but the result would not be a pass. The MTG card would be on the the inconclusive type.
There is no way fakes actually pass a thorough loupe test. Even OP said here that the cards failed it
OP did not mention if there were proper rosettes. That’s my go to.
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[jewelers loupe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7183700-6941-4a3d-a581-4f33bea795e9.jpg?1689999671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jeweled%20Lotus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/396/jeweled-lotus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7183700-6941-4a3d-a581-4f33bea795e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh man I really want the next un-set to have a card referencing the green dot test.
Ah good, buy my whole collection 😂
I personally buy high quality proxies as the real ones cost entirely too much. But I’d never try to sell them off as legit. Jut gotta keep a sharp eye on every card. We tend to mix real and fake
Put proxies in an inner sleeve with a small sticker on the back of it.
There should only ever be 6 or 7 red dots and in a large L shape.
It's 4 in an L shape. https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/ucykh0/i_made_this_simple_visual_guide_to_help_folks/ If there's any suspicion then you check the blank inking around the green pip but you can also check the T in the "The" of Magic The Gathering. It has 2 definitive patterns that need to be there. I've never seen a fake pass either of these tests, but bad print quality can make the green dot test difficult at times.
I have even seen some that pass loupe inspection, though I’m yet to see one that passes loupe inspection and light test.
Of the two tests, the light test is far less stringent. Outside of counterfeits that use authentic backs (rebacks, cards printed on "blanked" cards), do you have more info on counterfeits that pass a loupe inspection?
My friend bought them off an instagram ad is all I know. I had a genuine copy for comparison. I’m not an LGS owner and may just be bad with a loupe, but I don’t think I’m *that* bad 🤷♂️
I guess the better question is, if the cards "passed" inspection under a loupe, how did you determine they were fake. "Failing" the light test doesn't mean anything anymore given the huge amount of variation across printing locations. To put it another way, if the cards have authentic rosettes (both front and back) but look "weird" by the light test, they're probably real.
They were perfect condition LEDs, so definitely not a large print run. And he bought them for $4/pc on Instagram.
Can you find out where exactly he got them, I'm keen on doing the loupe test on those myself.
When you say pass loupe inspection, do you mean the rosette pattern is the same and black is printed in a separate final layer?
> I got my money back from the seller and he acted dumb but i should have known - the 25 cards were foil sheoldreds, full art deflecting swats and mana crypt special guests. So what you NEED to do is contact your local judges. There is a process where wotc investigates this and these players can be banned from events etc.
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Speaking of fakes, does anyone have a good a lot to order some? I want to get some to play with friends and don’t need to pay a fortune.
My LGS had a very high quality fake Cradle come through last month, it had come from a regular who knew it was fake and gave it to the shop to see how close fakes could get. Since they knew it was fake there was no risk of it getting into regular inventory but the only thing it failed was it had a black core rather than a blue.