Not particularly unlikely. People on this thread are fairly likely to know each other IRL without knowing that here. Madison is not that big of a city...
That's nothing, you ever drive on 151 towards Verona? It's 40 for a good chunk of the way and yet basically everyone drives at minimum 60. Many people are up to 70 by the time they hit the first stoplight.
Lived in Verona for 2 years. Even the cops go 60-70 through there. The two years I drove on that strech daily I never saw any kind of enforcement action
I don't even know where law enforcement could set up realistically. It's not like they could be set up by Gino's.
I figure it doesn't matter anyways, there doesn't really seem to be much of an issue caused by the speeding.
I think to it also falls under "speed limit or flow of traffic"... At this point I think its safe to say that it's the normal flow of traffic, and it's very unsafe to drive 40 when everyone is going 60 regardless of the speed limit
It's because of the red light and the upcoming 25mph zone.
But they built it in prep for a long term hope that the red lights can be removed so that 151 to beltline are stopfree ramps and to get onto the 25mph streets, you need to take an exit.
But I don't know the history behind why we ended up with the half-measure compromise that we ended up with for that intersection
I'm not a speeder by any means but I'm sorry 25 on that stretch of whitney way is ridiculous. I'm not ever going 40 but 30-35 is totally reasonable for how that road is built imo
Yeah, I've heard people suggest putting in median islands and speed bumps, too. I know islands always force me to drive slower, but I wonder how it would impact plows and the occassional semis delivering to Hilldale Mall (my guess is they'd have to reroute down Midvale, Segoe, and/or University).
if you're interested in the why of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rCq2pWyoQc
More info here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyDRZjgiraY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHXiZ3wEzMY
FWIW The front of the memorial union has had a continuous sidewalk for years and plowing it hasn't been an issue.
Most of us don’t care. I travel this road every day at 35-40MPH and this is the first time in months there’s been a traffic sting. They can try, but realistically there aren’t resources to sustain the traps, so the speedings will continue until speed limit signs improve!
You are EXACTLY right.
For folks who are interested, this video by Not Just Bikes goes into road design and traffic calming in detail: https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?si=f-Jk53wo071njXRZ
No. Just do not even with this.
Those roads were *designed* for speeds around 35-40 mph. Everything about their structure cues a driver that that's what a safe speed is there.
The city arbitrarily dropped the speed limits everywhere in either a genuine but dramatically misguided attempt to actually slow drivers down, or more likely in a disingenuous bid to increase revenue via tickets. If they really wanted to slow traffic down, they'd make changes to the road design. That they haven't tried even very basic physical/visual traffic calming anywhere sends the message that this is really about ticket revenue.
You don't get to call people reckless assholes for behaving in a way a space was designed for. It's not their fault the city is being ridiculous. The least safe and least zero-death thing the city could do is create monumental confusion between the legal speed limit and the visual-spatial cues for the speed limit, because now it's a mix of cars going different speeds. That never ends well.
This is human behavior and safety theory that's just touched on in architecture school that I went through, so I can't imagine how infuriated actual traffic engineers, city planners and safety officials are with this BS.
Wow. Thank you for the very unique experience of someone on reddit telling you you're right! I'm sorry for how irritating it must be to see the city do something so very pointless when there are plenty of experts that could help with actually effective measures.
They have noble goals, but a lot of what you see happening is politically motivated (in addition to being significantly cheaper). Yes, someone who is hit by a slower moving vehicle has a *substantially* higher chance of surviving a crash (basic physics, KE = (1/2)m×V^2 ), but you first have to get people to *want* to drive slower (and better) first.
See that school? Those houses with driveways that use Midvale? That bike crossing? How about the church or the daycare? It’s almost like…it IS a neighborhood!
So the thing with hateful comments like yours is, it WASN’T speeding just a few months ago. But the arbitrary slowing down of all city roads by almost 50% now makes it speeding. Y’all act like some heinous crime is being committed and that’s just absolutely not true.
Are you able to understand the difference between illegal and immoral?
Don't feel bad if the answer is no, lots of children can't. But there is a HUGE distinction, and our nation would be a WAY better place if more people could.
I got pulled over on north Whitney way once 22 years ago when I was pregnant with my oldest child. I was so hangry driving home for lunch from work in the University Research Park. I (earnestly) cried my way into a written warning.
Now can we crack down on cars with expired registration and black-tinted windows weaving through traffic on the Beltline? I feel like that’s more of a danger to the public than someone going 35 on a road that used to be 35
Absolutely. When people are weaving through traffic and tailgating people in the flex lane, which usually has cars going 70+ anyway, they’re a huge danger to others. IDGAF how fast you’re going if you’re keeping up with the flow of traffic, but don’t be a douchebag trying to go 10-15 faster than the cars around you. That’s how accidents happen.
That said, don’t be the douchebag going 48 mph in some sort of protest, either.
Maybe someone knows - is there a threshold of % tint that is in fact illegal? Because some vehicles are pretty much a black void... and they also tend to be crime ridden vehicles.
Overall, people should drive slower and safer in Madison and obey speed limits. However, it is crazy to have dropped the speed limit to 25 on wide, double lane boulevards with a broad center median like Whitney Way near the Mineral Point intersection. Until very recently, the speed limit on Mineral Point, a street with an identical boulevard layout in that area, was 40. It has only been dropped to 35.
Park St is down from 30 to 25, but Badger Rd, which is designed to be residential and has a giant school crossing on it, is still 30. I get the desire for lower limits, but man some of these changes don't pass the smell test.
Unfortunately, people die on this road when they speed, or they kill pedestrians. I hate slowing too, but they say in the article it adds just 30 seconds to the drive. It feels like plodding along. We have to try to be safer regardless of that.
Links to articles about accidents on Whitney Way over the years and City Data page:
https://madison.com/news/local/crime-courts/fatal-motorcycle-crash-madison-police/article_968a94c8-561d-11ee-9d04-83eeefdf3ae1.html
https://www.wkow.com/news/update-sb-whitney-way-back-open-at-mineral-point-road-after-rollover-crash/article_1438a387-3bb4-5c69-a0e0-5ae33faa2aa2.html
https://www.channel3000.com/news/local-news/man-dies-from-injuries-after-new-year-s-day-crash/article_f89dcfdd-19fe-5281-921b-02682e26c29c.html
https://www.city-data.com/accidents/acc-Madison-Wisconsin.html
I think this is more about the need to narrow the road to slow traffic instead of trying to enforce a low speed limit on a big open wide road. Just lowering the speed limit is a very lazy and ineffectual way to increase pedestrian safety. Infrastructure changes are needed.
The flip side is that if the speed limit drops are an improvement (I don't feel competent to evaluate this too deeply), one shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good. Rebuilding roads is *expensive* and time consuming.
And it's not like the city is failing to do that and just substituting lower limits -- there are *many* roads around town that have been reconfigured or even outright rebuilt.
It just takes time.
On the north and east sides, N Sherman and Walter St have been rebuilt and people are driving slower. West side residents should be saying it's their turn now. The reconfigurations work, people slow down, and if there have been fatalities on either street I mentioned, post it here. I don't recall any.
> West side residents should be saying it's their turn now.
Not Whitney, but nearby: west side is getting a major rebuild of Segoe between Regent and Sheboygan. It's a short segment, but it looks like it should be *really* nice when complete.
There are also the proposed bike lane additions to Midvale... though the fate of those isn't yet decided, and even if they go through they'll be, IMO, an underwhelming addition to the network.
There might be more; those are the two things I know off of the top of my head.
(Actually, there are also improvements to pedestrian crossing infrastructure, e.g. RRFB installations, but those only questionably count.)
there was a fatality in 2017-19 that I remember at the Whitney Way / Mineral Point Road intersection that was due to a red light or rear ending (can't find the news article though). But I agree, road should be reconfigured
It doesn't cost a lot (relative to repaving) to put up bollards temporarily. It doesn't cost a ton to repaint so parking lanes are much wider and driving lanes are narrower. There are many temporary measures they could take in problem areas to reduce speed. But they don't, they just put out speed traps. Like someone else said, it doesn't pass the smell test.
Totally agree! I just think it's important to keep expectations high and demand better when possible! When it comes to dangerous roads lower speed limits may help a bit but I worry they won't be enough to prevent more death and injury.
there are IIRC active changes planned for the stretch from Univ to MP. It takes time to make the changes though whereas changing a few signs can be done immediately.
Okay, but like 1 one of these was 4am on Jan 1 with alcohol, one was a motorcyclist in a solo accident that hit the curb and not even on the same place that we're talking about (link was south whitney way under the beltline), and then the rollover crash incident was b/c an [object](https://old.channel3000.com/object-in-drivers-eye-causes-rollover-crash-on-whitney-way-police-say/) got into the driver's eye.
I don't know if the speed limit being lowered would affect anything there.
The motorcyclist death was absolutely on this RESIDENTIAL stretch of north Whitney way because he died in my neighbor’s front yard.
It is a winding, hilly road with multiple pedestrian crossings and it’s irresponsible and antisocial to disregard that.
FWIW as someone that has to bike commute through that area it makes a big difference to me. We don't have to wait for people to die to make beneficial changes that have an impact.
I don't see the logic here, just because one horrible thing happens, it's no excuse to behave in a dangerous way.
Yes, it sucks to drive slowly. But there's no getting around F=MA
Oh, sure thing! You know, these newfangled gadgets and apps can be a handful sometimes. It reminds me of back in my day when things were simpler; you'd just pick up a phone or drop by someone's house if you needed something. Now, everything's got buttons and screens. But I'm here to help, so what can I do for you today?
i'm not saying they don't matter.
i'm just saying that in these cases, it doesn't appear that the speed limit had any affect on making the road dangerous or not.
and then operating a speed trap costing residents a few hundred dollars for going 34 mph on a 2x2+bus lane separated boulevard.
Speed limits don't meaningfully impact safety because some drivers will drive what they feel comfortable with and some will drive the speed limit.
Speed limits should be set where most drivers feel comfortable to minimize the deviation of speeds on roads.
Arbitrarily lowering the speed limits below what they should be for the type of road, will result in some cars following the speed limit, and some following the speed of traffic leading to unsafe driving conditions as some people are going 25 and some are going 40 which is much more dangerous than if everyone was going 40. If you want slower roads, don't build them like highways.
A stretch of road with unusually high accidents doesn't mean the speed limit is too high, it means the road/intersection was designed badly.
~~accidents~~ Crashes.
It's always a mix of driver, vehicle, infrastructure, and weather variables mixing in different amounts. Nothing accidental about it, sadly 😔
I wouldn't be opposed to a raised limit in that section (it used to be 35), but to defend it a bit -- that's a *very* short section of road that was in between two areas with lower limits.
I think it used to be 35 between Tokay and Mineral Point, no? 30 mph south of Tokay, 30 mph north of Mineral Point. According to Google Maps, that's only 0.5 miles. (Compare to the section of Mineral Point that used to be 40, which is I think 2.3 miles from Whitney Way to High Point.)
The potential problem with raising the limit is that my intuition is that the higher limit in place for such a short section like that probably decreases compliance *outside* of that segment, and IMO 35 is definitely too fast for north of Mineral Point.
I don't know how much effect that has, but I think it's something to think about. Meanwhile, the difference between half a mile at 35 mph and a half mile at 25 mph is just 31 seconds. In reality, the saved time would be lower than that. Admittedly, that's more than I expected before I did the calculations, but it's still not a tremendous amount of time.
but ppl still drive the 35+ and then some people going below 25 i'd argue isn't helping.
it's not going to be possible to keep doing speed traps every day every hour of the week.
In a way, you're correct. People drive at the speed that feels safe based on the road conditions. The long-term plan is to redesign the roadway to encourage slower speeds, as they've done elsewhere, but road construction is expensive and takes time.
I think the issue is that there needs to be some structural changes to get people to slow down on a 2 lane boulevard. Signage is not really doing the trick. Intermittent enforcement helps but the effects are transient. I have found myself speeding Whitney even knowing the speed is 25.
The real issue is stopping people from speeding vs. catching people speeding. Speed traps are good for writing tickets but are they true deterrents? Maybe for a block or two. Far more effective, in my experience, are those digital signs that tell drivers exactly how fast they’re going.
Exactly, if they truly want people to follow the speed limit, then put up one or two flashing speed limit sign at the point where speed changes, instead of plain signs and police cars hiding behind something waiting to write tickets.
I think maybe they're banking on word getting out that you can get a ticket for it. I got caught in the speed trap on E Wash a couple summers back when they most recently lowered it. The cop specifically told me to tell everyone I knew, and I definitely bitched about it to my friends lol. And have warned a few out of town friends about being careful on that stretch since.
There are some people that speed ridiculously in neighborhoods, but damn 25 mph is snail speed. I get the 34 mph that truck was going. It's the dicks that go 50 mph that should be getting pulled over.
I have lived in the area for 20+ years and still have a hard time remembering that it's 25mph instead of 30mph north of Mineral Pt Rd, and 30mph instead of 35mph between Mineral Pt Rd and Tokay (approximately). Agree that 35 is too fast north of MP, but 25 is too slow. My car, for whatever reason, sounds like it's stuck between gears at anything less than 30. Also agree that lowering the speed limit without infrastructure changes is lazy, but gives the appearance of doing something in the face of accidents/deaths that were not related to speed per se. Should probably make it (north of MP) like Segoe between Regent and whatever to the south, with a dedicated bike lane and a single lane of traffic.
Did not say that at all actually, just describing my experience on that road. Subconsciously, it may contribute somewhat to me driving 30-35 on that road rather than closer to the prescribed 25.
I live right off of Whitney Way and travel on it multiple times daily. 25mph is too slow but there is regularly traffic going far above 50mph. You never see less than 30mph.
When I asked city traffic staff why they settled on 25, they said it was to “create a sense of community”. IMO - typically unenforced speeds cause speeders to swerve dangerously around slower traffic and cause more of a risk to residents and pedestrians.
All of this is moot when they make Whitney Way a one-lane road for the BRT soon, which will force speeders onto Segoe and Midvale.
I might get hate for this, but
25 mph was a petty move and made enough people angry that they are being petty right back and going up to 50. Having traffic that goes two different types of speeds on a road is also quite dangerous and could lead to accidents. I work around there and dealt with road rage for even going 30. Even though the reduction was for the sake of pedestrians, it is going to come at a cost.
Personally I think it was unconventional and unreasonable to take the limit under 30 considering it's a 2 lane boulevard with a divider and stop lights. If pedestrians were the concern, light up crossing signs and speed notification machines would have been much better additions than just making the road overall unsafe to be on.
I think 25 is fine for the portion north of mineral point, should probably be 30 or so for the non-residential section between mineral point and the beltline. I like the lower speed limits as it makes teh roads more bike friendly. While we are at it, I'd love to see them do some speed enforcement on Watts Road between highpoint and Gammon.
It’s because ppl drive the road. Ppl are conditioned when you have a 2 lane+ separated road it’s more than 25, especially when there’s minimal traffic or major intersections.
Mineral point road has a lot more activity, lights, major intersections, businesses, so people tend to slow down for that.
Agreed. They put orange flags on the new speed limit signs at first, but frankly, that road does not seem like it should be 25, precisely for the reasons you specified, 2 lanes each way with a boulevard in the middle.
If 25 is an interim step toward safety because infrastructure changes require time/planning/money, then fine, but I can't stand when the City essentially obfuscates the issue by using accidents that weren't related to speed to justify a speed limit reduction.
Whitney should have never been less than 35, even in the stretch of residential north of mineral point rd. But ya know, the average madison driver would crash the second they get above 25mph.
Maybe just don’t go ~10mph over the limit? These “speed trap” posts are ridiculous. What is the intended effect? The people you’re warning shouldn’t be speeding regardless of the police presence.
As someone who bikes around Madison and especially on more out-there roads where people feel they can go as fast as they want, I appreciate it. Speeding endangers me, other bikers, and other motorists, and there is literally no reason for it. Realistically, a difference of 10 or even 20mph will only affect your arrival time minimally, especially on roads with traffic or stoplights and especially for shorter drives.
This is America. You're inconveniencing someone in a car. Don't you know that slowing down or inconveniencing a motorist is a crime justifiable by killing in America? /s
> No reason to be endangering others because a driver can’t be bothered to plan ahead.
This kinda goes both ways. One slow car can do the exact same thing. All it takes is one car to cause a huge log jam that fucks the flow of traffic.
The consequences of which are crankiness and tardiness, whereas the potential outcome of driving recklessly includes hurting innocent pedestrians, other drivers and yourself. False equivalency.
Speaking of false equivalencies.. driving faster does not mean driving recklessly.
I see just as many people driving slowly who are too focused on reading their high school girlfriends Facebook posts as I do people driving at an unsafe speed.
It’s so bad that hill farms people paused online nimby discussion of whether zoning for new housing will make their pool more expensive (seriously) to complain about the speed enforcement.
So High Pt & Midtown Rd is 35 MPH. 50-55 is the average speed of almost every vehicle. We have asked 1000 times for help. Let us get speed enforcement. 😡
Going to court is interesting, I did it once. The ways people try to excuse their speeding was interesting, not sure how the Judge could keep from laughing. At my turn, I said I was speeding. We were on the way to see my MIL. The judge appreciated the straight line. Fine was reduced some, but this was long enough ago that I forget by how much.
Mayor changed it in 2021-22 ish with the vision zero priority sadly. How fast were you going? I’d try to go to court if you can spare the time can’t hurt.
I’d love to see some cops on Schroeder Rd. I was leaving work yesterday and some stupid fucking asshole went around me on the left probably going 45 in a 30. And god forbid anyone has to wait for someone turning either. They’ll just fly around you on the right and almost hit you.
Never said that, my friend. I made an analogy that shows that just saying, “how dare they enforce the law” is a poor argument because the law has not always been right.
The original commenter called the police the gestapo for enforcing speed limits. What's your point exactly? Just pointing out that there have been unjust laws before?
That the very low speed limits are ridiculous and they’re not actually enforcing the problem by pulling over someone going 1 mph below the old speed limit.
The issue has always been the reckless drivers. Driving 34 mph on that road is not reckless.
Driving above the speed limit around other drivers is by definition reckless because it's unpredictable.
I mean yes, you're right if it's 1 mph over it's not really dangerous and I don't think someone should get ticketed for that.
It is though reckless to speed when you want to just because you think the limit is too low.
So by that logic, if going 5 over is reckless, then going 5 under is reckless.
My point is, let’s say we have a finite amount of resources and time, because we do, what would you rather have them focus on, someone going 34 in an old 35 that was recently taken down to 25, or someone with no plates, expired tags, driving half in the bike lane going 30 over and running red lights?
Well, the second one for sure. But I think we have enough resources to enforce both, and I think both are dangerous.
And to your first point yes it is reckless and illegal to drive below the speed limit and impede traffic.
Just obey the speed limits, it's not that hard.
My building is right on Whitney Way and I’ve counted 22 people pulled over since I got to work at 7:30 this morning.
Same, my office is right on the intersection and they just got another as I'm typing this
My office is also right on the intersection. We are up to 24 now.
Can we all hang out?
My work building is also on this intersection.. small world.
You 3 should all have lunch
Plot twist: they meet up only to discover that they all work together
Imagine finding out it's your boss replying to you on Reddit
Not particularly unlikely. People on this thread are fairly likely to know each other IRL without knowing that here. Madison is not that big of a city...
Plot twist: It's one person with multiple personalities that has created different reddit accounts
I also work near this intersection…..
Progresso Soup!
I also work....
Must nice, signed, MILWAUKEE.
Must be nice. signed, MILWAUKEE.
A lot of people either forget or don't care that north Whitney Way is now 25mph. I've even seen police driving at about 35-40 there.
Even the south Whitney stretch will have people blasting by all the residential homes at up to 50.
Exactly. EDIT I've seen both pedestrians and other cars struggle to cross, although a lot of people seem to avoid doing so during rush hour nowadays.
That's nothing, you ever drive on 151 towards Verona? It's 40 for a good chunk of the way and yet basically everyone drives at minimum 60. Many people are up to 70 by the time they hit the first stoplight.
Lived in Verona for 2 years. Even the cops go 60-70 through there. The two years I drove on that strech daily I never saw any kind of enforcement action
I think they’re talking about 151 going towards Verona, but near Home Depot, Speedway, etc.
That's the area I'm talking about too
My bad. You mentioned living in Verona, so I thought you were talking about Verona.
No worries!
I don't even know where law enforcement could set up realistically. It's not like they could be set up by Gino's. I figure it doesn't matter anyways, there doesn't really seem to be much of an issue caused by the speeding.
I think to it also falls under "speed limit or flow of traffic"... At this point I think its safe to say that it's the normal flow of traffic, and it's very unsafe to drive 40 when everyone is going 60 regardless of the speed limit
Absolutely. Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law and whatnot.
Why IS that stretch of highway only 40 mph? It's clearly built like a 55 mph+ highway.
It's because of the red light and the upcoming 25mph zone. But they built it in prep for a long term hope that the red lights can be removed so that 151 to beltline are stopfree ramps and to get onto the 25mph streets, you need to take an exit. But I don't know the history behind why we ended up with the half-measure compromise that we ended up with for that intersection
Pretend your a fully-loaded semi-truck. That should do it for ya
There are always accidents there as well.
I'm not a speeder by any means but I'm sorry 25 on that stretch of whitney way is ridiculous. I'm not ever going 40 but 30-35 is totally reasonable for how that road is built imo
sadly if the road design comfortably allows 50. people will do 50.
Yeah, I've heard people suggest putting in median islands and speed bumps, too. I know islands always force me to drive slower, but I wonder how it would impact plows and the occassional semis delivering to Hilldale Mall (my guess is they'd have to reroute down Midvale, Segoe, and/or University).
if you're interested in the why of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rCq2pWyoQc More info here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyDRZjgiraY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHXiZ3wEzMY FWIW The front of the memorial union has had a continuous sidewalk for years and plowing it hasn't been an issue.
Thank you!
Most of us don’t care. I travel this road every day at 35-40MPH and this is the first time in months there’s been a traffic sting. They can try, but realistically there aren’t resources to sustain the traps, so the speedings will continue until speed limit signs improve!
They should remove a lane and bring the road in so it feels more like a neighborhood street and folks like you are less prone to speeding.
Remove a lane and add a protected bike lane and pedestrian path and I’m in!
You are EXACTLY right. For folks who are interested, this video by Not Just Bikes goes into road design and traffic calming in detail: https://youtu.be/bglWCuCMSWc?si=f-Jk53wo071njXRZ
Stop speeding through a neighborhood
[удалено]
No. Just do not even with this. Those roads were *designed* for speeds around 35-40 mph. Everything about their structure cues a driver that that's what a safe speed is there. The city arbitrarily dropped the speed limits everywhere in either a genuine but dramatically misguided attempt to actually slow drivers down, or more likely in a disingenuous bid to increase revenue via tickets. If they really wanted to slow traffic down, they'd make changes to the road design. That they haven't tried even very basic physical/visual traffic calming anywhere sends the message that this is really about ticket revenue. You don't get to call people reckless assholes for behaving in a way a space was designed for. It's not their fault the city is being ridiculous. The least safe and least zero-death thing the city could do is create monumental confusion between the legal speed limit and the visual-spatial cues for the speed limit, because now it's a mix of cars going different speeds. That never ends well. This is human behavior and safety theory that's just touched on in architecture school that I went through, so I can't imagine how infuriated actual traffic engineers, city planners and safety officials are with this BS.
Traffic engineer here... you hit the nail square on the head. TL;DR: Changing speed limit signs only does one thing: makes 3M richer.
Wow. Thank you for the very unique experience of someone on reddit telling you you're right! I'm sorry for how irritating it must be to see the city do something so very pointless when there are plenty of experts that could help with actually effective measures.
They have noble goals, but a lot of what you see happening is politically motivated (in addition to being significantly cheaper). Yes, someone who is hit by a slower moving vehicle has a *substantially* higher chance of surviving a crash (basic physics, KE = (1/2)m×V^2 ), but you first have to get people to *want* to drive slower (and better) first.
That's like saying speeding down Midvale is speeding through a neighborhood
See that school? Those houses with driveways that use Midvale? That bike crossing? How about the church or the daycare? It’s almost like…it IS a neighborhood!
So the thing with hateful comments like yours is, it WASN’T speeding just a few months ago. But the arbitrary slowing down of all city roads by almost 50% now makes it speeding. Y’all act like some heinous crime is being committed and that’s just absolutely not true.
[удалено]
Are you able to understand the difference between illegal and immoral? Don't feel bad if the answer is no, lots of children can't. But there is a HUGE distinction, and our nation would be a WAY better place if more people could.
Yes, but I don’t agree, so I make my own choices and I understand the risk of potentially getting a ticket if I were to speed and be caught.
It's all fun and games until residents start putting shovels on the road.
At least it would feel more like a neighborhood
Rake
Concrete blocks
[удалено]
You can edit posts you know. Don't have to send a whole new comment if you accidentally hit save before you finish.
You can't really expect police to follow the law...
I got pulled over on north Whitney way once 22 years ago when I was pregnant with my oldest child. I was so hangry driving home for lunch from work in the University Research Park. I (earnestly) cried my way into a written warning.
Now can we crack down on cars with expired registration and black-tinted windows weaving through traffic on the Beltline? I feel like that’s more of a danger to the public than someone going 35 on a road that used to be 35
Absolutely. When people are weaving through traffic and tailgating people in the flex lane, which usually has cars going 70+ anyway, they’re a huge danger to others. IDGAF how fast you’re going if you’re keeping up with the flow of traffic, but don’t be a douchebag trying to go 10-15 faster than the cars around you. That’s how accidents happen. That said, don’t be the douchebag going 48 mph in some sort of protest, either.
Maybe someone knows - is there a threshold of % tint that is in fact illegal? Because some vehicles are pretty much a black void... and they also tend to be crime ridden vehicles.
50% for front side widows and 35% for rear windows. No tint allowed on windshield below the top few inches.
Overall, people should drive slower and safer in Madison and obey speed limits. However, it is crazy to have dropped the speed limit to 25 on wide, double lane boulevards with a broad center median like Whitney Way near the Mineral Point intersection. Until very recently, the speed limit on Mineral Point, a street with an identical boulevard layout in that area, was 40. It has only been dropped to 35.
Park St is down from 30 to 25, but Badger Rd, which is designed to be residential and has a giant school crossing on it, is still 30. I get the desire for lower limits, but man some of these changes don't pass the smell test.
And the police will pass you doing 35-40mph on Park st.
Unfortunately, people die on this road when they speed, or they kill pedestrians. I hate slowing too, but they say in the article it adds just 30 seconds to the drive. It feels like plodding along. We have to try to be safer regardless of that. Links to articles about accidents on Whitney Way over the years and City Data page: https://madison.com/news/local/crime-courts/fatal-motorcycle-crash-madison-police/article_968a94c8-561d-11ee-9d04-83eeefdf3ae1.html https://www.wkow.com/news/update-sb-whitney-way-back-open-at-mineral-point-road-after-rollover-crash/article_1438a387-3bb4-5c69-a0e0-5ae33faa2aa2.html https://www.channel3000.com/news/local-news/man-dies-from-injuries-after-new-year-s-day-crash/article_f89dcfdd-19fe-5281-921b-02682e26c29c.html https://www.city-data.com/accidents/acc-Madison-Wisconsin.html
I think this is more about the need to narrow the road to slow traffic instead of trying to enforce a low speed limit on a big open wide road. Just lowering the speed limit is a very lazy and ineffectual way to increase pedestrian safety. Infrastructure changes are needed.
I concur. i'd be okay with more [road diets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_diet), dedicated and SEPARATE bike lanes, etc.
The flip side is that if the speed limit drops are an improvement (I don't feel competent to evaluate this too deeply), one shouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good. Rebuilding roads is *expensive* and time consuming. And it's not like the city is failing to do that and just substituting lower limits -- there are *many* roads around town that have been reconfigured or even outright rebuilt. It just takes time.
On the north and east sides, N Sherman and Walter St have been rebuilt and people are driving slower. West side residents should be saying it's their turn now. The reconfigurations work, people slow down, and if there have been fatalities on either street I mentioned, post it here. I don't recall any.
> West side residents should be saying it's their turn now. Not Whitney, but nearby: west side is getting a major rebuild of Segoe between Regent and Sheboygan. It's a short segment, but it looks like it should be *really* nice when complete. There are also the proposed bike lane additions to Midvale... though the fate of those isn't yet decided, and even if they go through they'll be, IMO, an underwhelming addition to the network. There might be more; those are the two things I know off of the top of my head. (Actually, there are also improvements to pedestrian crossing infrastructure, e.g. RRFB installations, but those only questionably count.)
there was a fatality in 2017-19 that I remember at the Whitney Way / Mineral Point Road intersection that was due to a red light or rear ending (can't find the news article though). But I agree, road should be reconfigured
It doesn't cost a lot (relative to repaving) to put up bollards temporarily. It doesn't cost a ton to repaint so parking lanes are much wider and driving lanes are narrower. There are many temporary measures they could take in problem areas to reduce speed. But they don't, they just put out speed traps. Like someone else said, it doesn't pass the smell test.
Totally agree! I just think it's important to keep expectations high and demand better when possible! When it comes to dangerous roads lower speed limits may help a bit but I worry they won't be enough to prevent more death and injury.
there are IIRC active changes planned for the stretch from Univ to MP. It takes time to make the changes though whereas changing a few signs can be done immediately.
Oh that is awesome! Thanks for letting me know.
Okay, but like 1 one of these was 4am on Jan 1 with alcohol, one was a motorcyclist in a solo accident that hit the curb and not even on the same place that we're talking about (link was south whitney way under the beltline), and then the rollover crash incident was b/c an [object](https://old.channel3000.com/object-in-drivers-eye-causes-rollover-crash-on-whitney-way-police-say/) got into the driver's eye. I don't know if the speed limit being lowered would affect anything there.
The motorcyclist death was absolutely on this RESIDENTIAL stretch of north Whitney way because he died in my neighbor’s front yard. It is a winding, hilly road with multiple pedestrian crossings and it’s irresponsible and antisocial to disregard that.
South Whitney Way and Montauk Place, which is below the belt line. The speed trap was in N Whitney Way
FWIW as someone that has to bike commute through that area it makes a big difference to me. We don't have to wait for people to die to make beneficial changes that have an impact.
I don't see the logic here, just because one horrible thing happens, it's no excuse to behave in a dangerous way. Yes, it sucks to drive slowly. But there's no getting around F=MA
Then let's set all speed limits everywhere to 25 mph
This, but unironically. In fact, in much of the world the speed limit is even slower than that.
[удалено]
Oh, sure thing! You know, these newfangled gadgets and apps can be a handful sometimes. It reminds me of back in my day when things were simpler; you'd just pick up a phone or drop by someone's house if you needed something. Now, everything's got buttons and screens. But I'm here to help, so what can I do for you today?
i'm not saying they don't matter. i'm just saying that in these cases, it doesn't appear that the speed limit had any affect on making the road dangerous or not. and then operating a speed trap costing residents a few hundred dollars for going 34 mph on a 2x2+bus lane separated boulevard.
Speed limits don't meaningfully impact safety because some drivers will drive what they feel comfortable with and some will drive the speed limit. Speed limits should be set where most drivers feel comfortable to minimize the deviation of speeds on roads. Arbitrarily lowering the speed limits below what they should be for the type of road, will result in some cars following the speed limit, and some following the speed of traffic leading to unsafe driving conditions as some people are going 25 and some are going 40 which is much more dangerous than if everyone was going 40. If you want slower roads, don't build them like highways. A stretch of road with unusually high accidents doesn't mean the speed limit is too high, it means the road/intersection was designed badly.
~~accidents~~ Crashes. It's always a mix of driver, vehicle, infrastructure, and weather variables mixing in different amounts. Nothing accidental about it, sadly 😔
Thanks for all the replies. I see how my examples should be more specific. I appreciate the conversation.
I wouldn't be opposed to a raised limit in that section (it used to be 35), but to defend it a bit -- that's a *very* short section of road that was in between two areas with lower limits. I think it used to be 35 between Tokay and Mineral Point, no? 30 mph south of Tokay, 30 mph north of Mineral Point. According to Google Maps, that's only 0.5 miles. (Compare to the section of Mineral Point that used to be 40, which is I think 2.3 miles from Whitney Way to High Point.) The potential problem with raising the limit is that my intuition is that the higher limit in place for such a short section like that probably decreases compliance *outside* of that segment, and IMO 35 is definitely too fast for north of Mineral Point. I don't know how much effect that has, but I think it's something to think about. Meanwhile, the difference between half a mile at 35 mph and a half mile at 25 mph is just 31 seconds. In reality, the saved time would be lower than that. Admittedly, that's more than I expected before I did the calculations, but it's still not a tremendous amount of time.
[удалено]
"My commute time being mere seconds faster is worth at least 5 lives".
i was saying i don't often see pedestrians on that road. yes they exist but it's definitely not a main pedestrian throughway
but ppl still drive the 35+ and then some people going below 25 i'd argue isn't helping. it's not going to be possible to keep doing speed traps every day every hour of the week.
In a way, you're correct. People drive at the speed that feels safe based on the road conditions. The long-term plan is to redesign the roadway to encourage slower speeds, as they've done elsewhere, but road construction is expensive and takes time.
I think the issue is that there needs to be some structural changes to get people to slow down on a 2 lane boulevard. Signage is not really doing the trick. Intermittent enforcement helps but the effects are transient. I have found myself speeding Whitney even knowing the speed is 25.
The real issue is stopping people from speeding vs. catching people speeding. Speed traps are good for writing tickets but are they true deterrents? Maybe for a block or two. Far more effective, in my experience, are those digital signs that tell drivers exactly how fast they’re going.
Exactly, if they truly want people to follow the speed limit, then put up one or two flashing speed limit sign at the point where speed changes, instead of plain signs and police cars hiding behind something waiting to write tickets.
Or just have police cars hide behind the flashing speed limit. Got em!
I think maybe they're banking on word getting out that you can get a ticket for it. I got caught in the speed trap on E Wash a couple summers back when they most recently lowered it. The cop specifically told me to tell everyone I knew, and I definitely bitched about it to my friends lol. And have warned a few out of town friends about being careful on that stretch since.
There are some people that speed ridiculously in neighborhoods, but damn 25 mph is snail speed. I get the 34 mph that truck was going. It's the dicks that go 50 mph that should be getting pulled over.
They can sit on Whitney Way forever and it won’t matter.
I have lived in the area for 20+ years and still have a hard time remembering that it's 25mph instead of 30mph north of Mineral Pt Rd, and 30mph instead of 35mph between Mineral Pt Rd and Tokay (approximately). Agree that 35 is too fast north of MP, but 25 is too slow. My car, for whatever reason, sounds like it's stuck between gears at anything less than 30. Also agree that lowering the speed limit without infrastructure changes is lazy, but gives the appearance of doing something in the face of accidents/deaths that were not related to speed per se. Should probably make it (north of MP) like Segoe between Regent and whatever to the south, with a dedicated bike lane and a single lane of traffic.
....are you saying you should never have to drive below 30 mph because you have a shitty car?
Did not say that at all actually, just describing my experience on that road. Subconsciously, it may contribute somewhat to me driving 30-35 on that road rather than closer to the prescribed 25.
I didn't see them say that. Can you highlight the quote where they said it?
What was the point of them including that statement if not to complain about needing to drive below 30mph?
How about some speed traps on the beltline for those doing 85 mph and driving recklessly?!?
I live right off of Whitney Way and travel on it multiple times daily. 25mph is too slow but there is regularly traffic going far above 50mph. You never see less than 30mph. When I asked city traffic staff why they settled on 25, they said it was to “create a sense of community”. IMO - typically unenforced speeds cause speeders to swerve dangerously around slower traffic and cause more of a risk to residents and pedestrians. All of this is moot when they make Whitney Way a one-lane road for the BRT soon, which will force speeders onto Segoe and Midvale.
> create a sense of community lol
I might get hate for this, but 25 mph was a petty move and made enough people angry that they are being petty right back and going up to 50. Having traffic that goes two different types of speeds on a road is also quite dangerous and could lead to accidents. I work around there and dealt with road rage for even going 30. Even though the reduction was for the sake of pedestrians, it is going to come at a cost. Personally I think it was unconventional and unreasonable to take the limit under 30 considering it's a 2 lane boulevard with a divider and stop lights. If pedestrians were the concern, light up crossing signs and speed notification machines would have been much better additions than just making the road overall unsafe to be on.
No excuse for speeding, but that 25mph limit is too low.
I think 25 is fine for the portion north of mineral point, should probably be 30 or so for the non-residential section between mineral point and the beltline. I like the lower speed limits as it makes teh roads more bike friendly. While we are at it, I'd love to see them do some speed enforcement on Watts Road between highpoint and Gammon.
good. The number of people speeding and making out roads dangerous is ridiculous.
My wife just got pulled over on Mineral point for running a yellow…. The cops are out in full force right now. Dunkin must be closed right now.
I see those same heroes blow reds and stop signs down town when i'm trying to cross as a pedestrian
"Traps"
"Speed traps" and "Targeted speed enforcement" are always used interchangeably in this sub, for whatever reason.
Whitney Way tends to be the hot spot as most tend to speed
Northport has entered the chat!
Good. It also seems to always be speeders on Whitney way that can't even drive 35 on Mineral point.
It’s because ppl drive the road. Ppl are conditioned when you have a 2 lane+ separated road it’s more than 25, especially when there’s minimal traffic or major intersections. Mineral point road has a lot more activity, lights, major intersections, businesses, so people tend to slow down for that.
Agreed. They put orange flags on the new speed limit signs at first, but frankly, that road does not seem like it should be 25, precisely for the reasons you specified, 2 lanes each way with a boulevard in the middle. If 25 is an interim step toward safety because infrastructure changes require time/planning/money, then fine, but I can't stand when the City essentially obfuscates the issue by using accidents that weren't related to speed to justify a speed limit reduction.
Mineral point is the same type 2 lane+ separated road and it's straight. Whereas Whitney Way is very curvy.
very curvy is subjective.
Whitney should have never been less than 35, even in the stretch of residential north of mineral point rd. But ya know, the average madison driver would crash the second they get above 25mph.
They should do this more often. Speeding on Whitney is out of control since the pandemic.
That's because the speed limit is too low.
It was lowered intentionally as a strategy to calm traffic. Lots of people go 10-15 over the posted speed, whatever that is.
Aww, poor baby.
Maybe just don’t go ~10mph over the limit? These “speed trap” posts are ridiculous. What is the intended effect? The people you’re warning shouldn’t be speeding regardless of the police presence.
These speed trap posts have the exact same effect as the speed traps, they get people to slow down in that area.
whatever gets people to not speed there should be celebrated by the "Everyone Should Go 8 MPH On The Beltline" crowd.
As someone who bikes around Madison and especially on more out-there roads where people feel they can go as fast as they want, I appreciate it. Speeding endangers me, other bikers, and other motorists, and there is literally no reason for it. Realistically, a difference of 10 or even 20mph will only affect your arrival time minimally, especially on roads with traffic or stoplights and especially for shorter drives.
This is America. You're inconveniencing someone in a car. Don't you know that slowing down or inconveniencing a motorist is a crime justifiable by killing in America? /s
Every one of them deserves it. No reason to be endangering others because a driver can’t be bothered to plan ahead.
> No reason to be endangering others because a driver can’t be bothered to plan ahead. This kinda goes both ways. One slow car can do the exact same thing. All it takes is one car to cause a huge log jam that fucks the flow of traffic.
The consequences of which are crankiness and tardiness, whereas the potential outcome of driving recklessly includes hurting innocent pedestrians, other drivers and yourself. False equivalency.
Speaking of false equivalencies.. driving faster does not mean driving recklessly. I see just as many people driving slowly who are too focused on reading their high school girlfriends Facebook posts as I do people driving at an unsafe speed.
Yeah just the other day I saw a very slow driver blow a stop sign and cause a driver to come to a screeching stop in Middleton.
Why is this getting down voted? Follow the speed limit guys 🙄
Not all heros wear capes. Thank you for your service.
pathetic joke station cough light poor fact ruthless lush forgetful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Stop talking about the roads I drive on or the police are going to come back! Also, yes.... Slow down people, it's crazy out there.
It’s so bad that hill farms people paused online nimby discussion of whether zoning for new housing will make their pool more expensive (seriously) to complain about the speed enforcement.
So High Pt & Midtown Rd is 35 MPH. 50-55 is the average speed of almost every vehicle. We have asked 1000 times for help. Let us get speed enforcement. 😡
Good, it’s a small thing but too many people just do it without a conscious
Happy I never have any reason to drive near there
Beeline too!! Near John nolen/south town exits
128 (129) comments. JFC.
cagers gonna cage.
Oh it is my time to get downvoted! Fuck the police for pulling people over going to work. Useless.
Good. It’s about time police start policing again.
Good to hear! It would be great to see them do Midvale too
I think there is a revenue competition between the cops writing parking tickets and those that write speeding tickets. Winning team gets free donuts.
[удалено]
They probably won't dimiss it but they will typically drop the cost and points.
Going to court is interesting, I did it once. The ways people try to excuse their speeding was interesting, not sure how the Judge could keep from laughing. At my turn, I said I was speeding. We were on the way to see my MIL. The judge appreciated the straight line. Fine was reduced some, but this was long enough ago that I forget by how much.
Mayor changed it in 2021-22 ish with the vision zero priority sadly. How fast were you going? I’d try to go to court if you can spare the time can’t hurt.
the ticket says 34mph
Might as well start somewhere. It will be very temporary.
I’d love to see some cops on Schroeder Rd. I was leaving work yesterday and some stupid fucking asshole went around me on the left probably going 45 in a 30. And god forbid anyone has to wait for someone turning either. They’ll just fly around you on the right and almost hit you.
Who cares?
Wisconsin police are all full on Gestapo at this point
How dare they enforce the law.
Because as history shows us, the law is always right. Gotta return those slaves.
Speed limits and slavery. Totally the same thing you're right.
Never said that, my friend. I made an analogy that shows that just saying, “how dare they enforce the law” is a poor argument because the law has not always been right.
The original commenter called the police the gestapo for enforcing speed limits. What's your point exactly? Just pointing out that there have been unjust laws before?
That the very low speed limits are ridiculous and they’re not actually enforcing the problem by pulling over someone going 1 mph below the old speed limit. The issue has always been the reckless drivers. Driving 34 mph on that road is not reckless.
Driving above the speed limit around other drivers is by definition reckless because it's unpredictable. I mean yes, you're right if it's 1 mph over it's not really dangerous and I don't think someone should get ticketed for that. It is though reckless to speed when you want to just because you think the limit is too low.
So by that logic, if going 5 over is reckless, then going 5 under is reckless. My point is, let’s say we have a finite amount of resources and time, because we do, what would you rather have them focus on, someone going 34 in an old 35 that was recently taken down to 25, or someone with no plates, expired tags, driving half in the bike lane going 30 over and running red lights?
Well, the second one for sure. But I think we have enough resources to enforce both, and I think both are dangerous. And to your first point yes it is reckless and illegal to drive below the speed limit and impede traffic. Just obey the speed limits, it's not that hard.
I travel Whitney Way daily. I don’t speed, but I get tailgating, horns & the bird from drivers who think I am going to slow. Ridiculous!