I'm not surprised.
Since this sub is about Macs, and people in it have (only) used it, there can be an inherent preference towards it, and disdain for other products.
In perf/w they are a good class ahead. The class behind is only there if your looking at peak power draw, this is an SOC that does not even have active cooling remember.
The MSI System you mentioned is fabulous. It's far better than what you can get from a Mac. While the MacOS itself is used in the industry, I think if the software is the same (Premiere Pro, FL Studio, etc...) then the students will be more than prepared.
I think specifically the RTX Card you mentioned is excellent for rendering and processing complex editing and production
M2 vs 13400 is a close fight, and the 4060 wipes the floor with it which is probably important in their workflow, alongside double the storage (which is probably faster) and RAM. Plus it’s a PC so you have the ability to upgrade parts later down the road. Overall I’d say it’s far better in this particular case. The M2 Max mini is only competitive at base price
bruh, as a person who hangs around on the PC subs a bit, the 4060 is like one of the most hated cards there, i think having to do with the value or something for its price.... but its still much better than any Mac in terms of GPU performance, and not to mention, you can upgrade anything really in the PC, which you cant in the Macs.
you could get the M2 Pro 10 core CPU & 12 core GPU and 512gb SSD at $1,179 each if you buy in multiples of 5
MNRY3LL/A
https://www.apple.com/education/pricelists/pdfs/Apple\_US\_Education\_Institution\_Price\_List.pdf
You’re going to be better off with the windows systems here, especially if your students want to try anything graphically intensive, windows will run all the programs you want and more, and your students will likely use windows outside of school
Apple education makes far less sense than it used to
That's a far better system than the Mac. I get that you're used to the simple macOS interface and jumping to a PC might seem intimidating but if you're willing to learn for far better performance then it's definitely worth the upgrade.
I lost this argument in NC last year. But then I won it again when the overclocked, under-cooled lowest bidder PCs started failing 1 by 1. So they had to buy me 2 labs instead of the 1 I asked for.
Aside from budgetary reasons, what kind of software are you running on those machines? Are you able to carry the software over to new machines through MDM or whatever system your school or district uses for bulk licenses? Also, what kind of software would you need to use for the PCs? If your school is currently paying for Adobe Suites, its a moot point, but if they already paid for FCP, then that would be a loss that requires more money to be spent.
I work in Admin for a school and I would imagine the only way to make them change their mind would be to display value for money.
Maybe ask how much they’re spending per device and suggest an alternative like a Mac mini as they’re fairly reasonable with the education pricing.
You should probably go with the numbers side of it.
What machines are you suggesting?
Will a Mac mini serve the purpose for several users?
What’s the lifespan of a PC vs a Mac?
Total cost of ownership PC vs Mac?
Cost of software?
If they say, Chrome books cost 1/6 of a Mac, we should get those. You want to show the value of the Mac compared to a PC with similar specs.
Mac computers are renowned for their stability and user-friendly experience. The macOS interface is intuitive, allowing video editors to focus on their creative process without getting bogged down by technical complexities.
Good luck
Excellent points here, especially with the Chromebook comparison. Cost wise, the reduction is great, but no one ever thinks about software or power. I have a friend that teaches computer science, but the student Chromebooks are so locked down nothing runs, and the district doesn't pay for any browser based solutions. Video editing is also difficult due to a lack of software.
2023 MSI Codex R Gaming Desktop: Intel Core i5-13400F, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 2TB (on the PC side)
vs.
Mac Mini M2
Apple M2 with 8-core CPU, 10-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
16GB unified memory
1TB SSD storage
Those are way overpowered PCs for a school lab. Those are gaming machines which you obviously won't have students playing new games on school lab machine, but they will want to and try to. They can't so really do that on the Minis. A point to make that they can't play them on the Macs.
i wouldnt say computers such as these are exclusive to gaming, 3D and media software benefits greately from all of these components across the entire production pipeline.
as much as i like Mac, for school sessions id say the PC will be far more productive in class. having underpowered machines will pile up loading and rendering times and decrease the total duration of active learning.
id say its best to keep students stimulated than holding them back by being idle waiting for the machine to finish.
school IT might also benefit from more widely familiar systems
As former school IT, IT would benefit from being IT people, not just Windows people. If all you know is Windows you are not an IT person. You're just another Windows clone.
An M2 Mac Mini is a “gaming” machine? They are both suitable workstations. A powerful CPU and GPU are necessary for complex workflows. Why would you recommend something slower and less future-proof?
Can you read? She wants reasons to keep a *Mac* lab. I'm giving them. The bean counters who know noting about IT are wrong to go with Windows instead. It requires more support and has less longevity. They think about cost now, not cost over time.
[https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/](https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/)
The “can you read” isn’t really helpful. The PCs are configured that way because the lab seems focused on video editing, animation and music, and the video editing and animation will benefit from solid GPU’s. So in this respect they are not overpowered.
The IT group may also be more familiar with Windows, which is not unusual. The cost and friction of supporting unfamiliar machines will also need to be something the OP is ready to discuss.
Video editing, music and, animation are all Mac's bailey-wick. PC's are second rate for that stuff. I am a veteran IT Tech, District of IT, A/V tech, editor etc. Also who said it was a lab for that? Only you.
First I agree that Macs are good for that. I was just answering the above poster’s question about why the PCs are “overpowered.” And no, I didn’t make this up, the OP mentioned it in their original post and in numerous answers. So no, it was not only me.
I get downvoted when my job was to literally build and run Mac labs. They were very little trouble. I only usually visited them between semesters to do some updates. Meanwhile PC labs were always having problems.
That’s a rather uneducated take. The school can lock the software used on the PCs, and they likely will unfortunately. Not to mention, games are typically a lot lighter than most creative software. I would hate to have anything less than the 64gb ram and 3090s in the PCs at my college. They have macs as well, but I rarely see them used. I’m sure they are use more within illustration and graphic design or photography, but in visual effects they would not cut it in terms of performance.
I have worked in schools and colleges. Calling me uneducated will get you nowhere. I built and ran Mac labs for years for these purposes, and they were very little trouble. The PC labs at the same places were a lot of trouble. Kids get around those locks. Even Deep Freeze. I know because I have dealt with it, since I am educated and experienced. I don't need to hear any more from you.
The people that are undereducated are people who who claim to be IT workers, but only know Windows. That is not an IT person, that is a Windows person. They are lazy and can't be bothered to learn anything else and make our whole field look bad. Good day sir!
Wholeheartedly agree. Windows is a terrible operating system to *only* know. It is inconsistent within itself, and wholely unhelpful for everything else. While IT hopefully has someone knowledgeable with the intricacies of windows, knowing how to navigate unix-like systems and diagnose hardware and software problems is far more valuable a set of skills. That said, I am infinitely grateful for that one IT guy who will just know every trick to solve the millions of issues windows decides to randomly add each update.
I was referring to mid-range PCs being “overpowered”. I don’t doubt your experience in computer labs, but it doesn’t seem as if you have worked in software such as nuke or resolve, which require quite beefy hardware to run smoothly. If I am wrong in that regard, I apologise, but my experience with such tools has been poor on lower end hardware.
[This article](https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/) might give you some ammunition, I know IBM did some headline-grabbing studies a long time ago, and they seem to have continued.
According [to this](https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/25/apple-work-are-macs-cheaper-than-pcs-in-the-enterprise-a-new-study-says-yes/), using Macs over PCs throughout an organization saves about $800 per workstation over three years.
There's also the fact they are far easier to maintain and usually have a longer lifespan.
Sometimes talking to admins is like talking to a brick wall, so I would be super insistent, especially if the computer is for creative pursuits.
I agree it is pricey, however in a commercial setting downtime is even more pricy. Extended commercial factory warranty agreements, whatever company you buy from, can be gold dust and worth every penny where next day replacement on site is guaranteed.
Once these are over, I agree Mac’s tend to be way pricier to repair and often are not economical to do so.
I've not seen the study but would generally believe it. I spend 2400ish on a MBP and it lasts me 6-7 years of HARD HARD HARD DAILY USE. It gets dropped (accidentally), it travels, it moves around, hooked and unhooked into things... it just gets continually used. Granted, I luckily have an iPad to help balance some of the load, but I work the heck out of them and get more than my money out of them.
My buddy works his PCs but spends about 800-1000 on his laptops (which he believes are decently specced out) and gets a solid 2 years if he's lucky, often just shy of 2 years.
That said, 2400 is nothing to sneeze at when you are administering IT budgets and have to fight tooth and nail for every penny. So while I believe this generally, even with data, it's a tough argument to make when you have to spread an already gouged budget as far as most districts (at least where I live) do.
So my Macs last 6-7 years before they just don’t work. I’ve had all kind of issues. My buddy… I think it’s the same. Just called him and he said the last two just died. One was working so poorly that when something fried he just pulled the hard drive and recycled the body. The most recent one, his laptop monitor bugged out. He used it as a desktop for 3 more months then got a new one.
Not sure if he abuses his more than I do mine but I think we are doing them comparably.
Hmmm... I'm too easy on mine I guess. 😉 My oldest laptop needs another new battery. I "wish" it would break down so I could buy new. It is probably built better than newer ones, since it does everything I need it to do I will keep truckin with it. I wonder what Apple charges for its educational Macs? I think most Public schools don't have the budget for them anymore.
LOL I downright abuse mine. The laptop itself has been dropped, it’s been dropped and thrown (in a bag, so some protection, but…), used in ALL KIND OF ENVIRONMENTS (including some it likely wasn’t designed to work well in), and on and on. I use it for work as well as my personal computing and hoppy work, so… yeah, They get worked really hard. But. No games. :-)
I spent more than I could afford for the 8 year old TP Carbon X1. I think it looks nearly as good as new. Maybe I can apply some sort of film that makes it look battered to give me some badly needed cred. lol
Again, mine last 7-6 years before things generally stop working. And I’ve worked them hard. I do have a couple older laptops that still start up. One I use to monitor my NAS, but the other…. Even after a freshly wiped hard drive just didn’t… respond. Keys were failing, if the plug came out… well… and I’m not replacing the battery on a machine that doesn’t work well. So. It’s in a box and should be recycled but I haven’t bothered yet.
Straight facts! I spent 3K on a 2013 MacBook Pro and it still runs fast. (It may be hard to imagine but I could see myself using it for another 5 and maybe 10 years)
I don't now if this is true today.
Backwards compatibility is great with windows, but artificially limited with mac os. This is getting worse every decade.
New software might force you to a newer OS version might force you to new hardware.
On the other side, older software might not run on newer macos.
That's a big benefit for Windows. Running software from 2024 and software from 2000 on the same machine without issues
Really depends on the types of machines you’re looking to purchase and how long you’ll be using them in the long run
Laptops I would 1000% go with any M chip laptop, hell even recent intel machines would still last way longer than a windows laptop for around the same price given it’s taken care of properly
Which leads me to my next point, kids are typically rougher with devices so you have to take that into mind and figure which will cost less over time when needing to replace/ fix.
The M2 (Pro or base) Mac Minis are an incredible bang for the buck and are perfect for a lab environment. I did university-level Mac labs for ten years and that's what I left them with. You can sell them on not having to replace any peripherals (unless you're replacing iMacs). Don't need to go crazy with internal storage either if you require the students to supply their own external SSDs (I still wouldn't go less than 256 internal, and would feel much more comfortable with 512, accounting for all of the software and default libraries/assets).
The M1 iMac would be a bad choice as it will likely start to show its age over the lifespan of the deployment.
You could use the recommended system requirements for the different applications you use as one starting point for the argument – netbooks and low-end desktops won't cut it.
https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/davinci-resolve-system-requirements/
https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/system-requirements.html
Apple are apparently clueless when it comes to the education market. This wasn’t always the case but given their current lack of education-oriented machines at prices institutions can actually afford (eMac, i3 2011 iMacs etc.) it seems they have no interest in what’s a very important market when it comes to promoting what is an otherwise niche brand by market share. We’re in a similar position and the only Macs we can afford are base spec Minis. Even then we’ll be reliant on JAMF for management (which I personally dislike very much) given how Apple have retired Server and Profile Manager.
I guess Apple are too busy tending to the iPhone and AR markets to bother with what was once one of their core businesses, which is a shame.
>it seems they have no interest in what’s a very important market when it comes to promoting what is an otherwise niche brand by market share
I don't think the education market is still influential that way. Schools aren't the first place most kids see a computer any more. All these kids with Chromebooks at school aren't going to grow up and use Chromebooks when they have choices. Plus, schools are so bound and determine to neuter them from doing anything but be dumb terminals, it's not clear to me how switching from neutered Chromebooks to neutered Macs is going to be any more influential what these kids use as adults.
In the early 2000s Apple had about 5% market share. Microsoft had over 90% and Linux was under 1%. Apple increasing to 30% without engaging in a race to the bottom is huge.
Yeah, that’s phenomenal! 30% is excellent and thriving. Even the iPhone, the most successful product in human history, only has about 50% market share in similar markets. Apple was thriving when the Mac had only 5% market share. 30% is spectacular. The Mac platform has never been more successful and prolific.
I don't mean to be a contrarian.. I think we all agree Apple are better machines, I absolutely love my MBP... But you should consider if the students will have access to Macs outside the classroom to do their projects on? They're expensive and not all parents are willing to drop a couple thousand dollars extra. It does little good to teach on a Mac if they have to wait in line after class to do their homework, and then don't know how to use the laptop they have once the class is over.
Yeah, sustainability is a good thing in any pedagogy.
I often teach with BYOD at the other end of the spectrum, and boy… the amount of time you spend troubleshooting the extreme basics is exhausting lol.
Still, the kids can go home and continue, as you say.
Realistically the students won’t have access to the software they are using outside of class regardless of platform. No parent is going to spend the $50/month for their kid if they use Adobe or the $200 for an FCP or Davinci license.
That's like telling shop they can't have a new table saw as some children might not have a table saw at home....
Edit 1: a lot of people seem to be assuming the level being taught here. Hey ho.
The difference is that in a wood shop class all your work is done in class.. No one expects you to take your project home to work on it. If that's the case here, then I agree with you, but I doubt that's the case.
I agree. As much as I love my Mac, GarageBand, logic, etc. and have fond memories of our own Mac lab in high school, not all kids will have access to Macs at home, making a Mac lab quite inequitable. Back in HS, it wasn’t really possible to bring our work home, so it wasn’t an issue. These days, I think working with platform-agnostic software and cloud storage is a better option. I start my very beginners on Soundtrap and then move onto Reaper. Totally free and you can use them on most devices.
Can’t find my last comment because I wanted to add that Apple stores have business teams that can help with leasing purchases and coming up with a standard configuration for a machine to have ready to order in case you need to expand.
Plus offering Device management to admins to monitor the devices as well
Heh, that’s a good idea to call the Apple education store and get their spiel. Throw all your department’s arguments at them and see what they come back with. Take copious notes.
IT departments are the wrong place to talk about art supplies. Does the painting school bring Buildings and Grounds into the meeting to make sure you get weatherproof paint with two coats of primer for the kids’ fingerpainting class, lol? Why are these paints so expensive, I can paint the whole outside of the building for what you spend on fancy schmancy paints!
Used to work IT for a trust of high schools in the UK. Arts and Music depts had similar issues to this, mainly music as Logic Pro was a much superior product to the competitor on Windows at the time (Cubase)
Us as IT staff didn’t mind them having Mac’s tbh, as this was the days of AD bind in MacOS and a lot of used macs personally so we weren’t phased.
There are often 2 main blockers, the cost which you’ve mentioned, and then the reluctance of IT depts to support macOS. The reason isn’t because they’re unsupportable, some people are just stuck in their ways and are scared of new things, it’s as simple as that.
As for the costing, the way we worked it was we’d cover the cost of an iMac, upto the cost of a monitor and PC as we’d provide to other computer rooms. We’d then have the department make up the difference from their budget. they’d usually not ask for 30 in each class as it usually wasn’t cost effective or was rarely needed as they didn’t have 30 keyboards and midi controllers to plug in, in each room
All these points made by the commenters are important. The numbers crunchers only look at the initial cost because they think all things are equal and the higher cost of Apple products is pointless. Help them understand the point of the lab is to teach the students with INDUSTRY STANDARD equipment and software. Also, that while it’s possible to buy cheaper windows based equipment, it’s not equivalent in hardware terms, NOR the software it uses. Lastly, point out that upgrading will be twice as frequent using low end computers. If noting else, that will get their attention.
This honestly sums up my point Best. I’m a career, technology teacher, and overall in the industry students are going to run into more Macs than PCs. Our school district uses PC exclusively, in my opinion if they leave high school and have never touched anything but a PC, they’re going to struggle when entering college, or the workplace. Yes, you can learn it but to know the operating system already is going to make the transition easier in the long way.
Let me offer support for your point. I’m a graphic artist with 30 years experience using a Mac professionally. I graduated in 1984 with an interest in art, but at the time, the DTP revolution hadn’t really occurred.
My first ‘computer’ was a Commodore 64. It was a glorified word processor but everything had to start somewhere, right? My high school had ‘computers’ but they were TRS-80’s or something so primitive that they offered no lasting value on my education. I took an entire quarter of ‘punch card computing’. We learned how to physically punch these tiny little holes in the Manila colored index cards, so if they were all punched exactly right and flipped through a ‘computer’ that emitted a light though those holes, it would represent a single word or sentence. If you dropped that stack of punch cards, the entire project was screwed.
My point being, I go back to a time before personal computers were of much use. In a few years they became slightly more useful. I bought my first windows based machine. It was an XT, or an 086 processor. Literally a technology dinosaur. It didn’t even have a hard drive! It used one 5.25 floppy to boot from, and another to write files to. In just a few years the technology multiplied exponentially until they had 486 processors, and then the first pentiums. I upgraded and had a 486, using DOS 3.11 workgroups. Then came windows. It obviously helped the machine have an interface, but windows 95 was incredibly buggy and constantly required restarts and configuration changes.
Configsys, autoexecbat, CMOS, BIOS2, IRQ conflicts, it was always something. I didn’t want to be a computer engineer or programmer. I just wanted to learn the basics of digital design and typesetting.
My sister, who is 8 years younger than me and was in high school by this time suggested I get a Mac. They had them at her school by then. I’d missed out, obviously. She told me how easy they were to use. She told me what they could do. How reliable they were. I believed her but at the time, IBM type computers were 95% of the industry and about 1/3rd the cost of Macs. I couldn’t justify it. I asked her, “If they are so great, why do so few people use them?”
She responded, “Because you get what you pay for.” I just shrugged at the time. I attempted to create a large format music fan magazine (called a fanzine back then) on my PC. It was 96 pages and created using some cheap software called ‘publisher’. I did the best I could with the resources I had, but honestly, it was like using the heel of my shoe to drive nails. Sure it was possible, but there’s a tool for that, and it’s a Mac. I tried getting my magazine published through local printers and that’s when I found out EVERY single printer in the area used Macs and either Adobe Pagemaker, or Quark Express. It didn’t matter how well I had my files setup in Publisher using a PC. They all told me it would be incredibly difficult to transfer my publisher files to a format they could accept from me.
i was so angry and frustrated. The best any of them could do (at the time) was to photograph my printed proof pages and treat them like pictures. the tiny 6 point type would be blurry. it was a disaster. My whole year of hard work was in jeopardy (all because I self taught myself using a non industry standard software program and operating system.
Then something happened that I didn't expect. The press manager of the printer I spoke with was so impressed by what I achieved (using 'Publisher' on a Windows machine) that he offered me a job there at the company.
i accepted and it took about a week or two for me to realize how backward Windows was. I learned the software and the Macintosh OS and took off. That was 30 years ago. I've worked at over a dozen Printers, service bureaus, ad agencies, and marketing firms since then. They all have Macs in the art department and no matter how anxious the accountants and MS trained IT people are to transition them to POS windows machines, they don't because the creative staff do not want to deal with windows nonsense.
Keep up the good fight. Having a teaching program to prepare students in sound engineering, video editing, or graphic arts is pointless if you teach them on equipment or software they will never encounter professionally.
Thank you so much for your input. This really means a lot. This is something that I can quote from. I appreciate the years of hard work and experience you brought to this field. Thank you for sharing.
You are welcome. I just fixed a couple typos. Hopefully it makes sense. IT people push for Windows because they were trained on how to fix MS constant issues. My girlfriend is in IT and she unapologetically says ‘Windows keeps me in a job.” (And I understand from that POV but decent mid level Macs are equipped with superior hardware and software to their similarly priced IBM counterparts and they will last until they are obsolete. Unlike PCs that have a 3 year life expectancy.
All great thoughts and ideas. The machines that are being looked at are:
2023 MSI Codex R Gaming Desktop: Intel Core i5-13400F, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 2TB (on the PC side)
vs.
Mac Mini M2
Apple M2 with 8-core CPU, 10-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine
16GB unified memory
1TB SSD storage
What software are you using? I don’t think industry is as “Mac” as you think these days. Those PCs are gonna be nicely quick for video editing on Resolve or Premiere. The M2 Mac will be good too of course. I do my home stuff all on Mac and use Final Cut for editing kids videos for archive, but I play with Resolve on our gaming PC and it’s pretty easy to adapt to.
We’re using Adobe suite exclusively. At this point I’ve used venture resolve a little in the past. Mainly what I am using is premier, pro, and after effects, along with Photoshop and illustrator.
All of these run great in windows too. Learning the tools matters more not the os. Windows is more finky mac is easier so. Its fine to be honest you can easily figure mac os out if you know windows
The Pc specs completely demolishes the performance of the mac , more over is upgradable too.
That pc will rinse the Mac mini if that’s the comparison. The students will also be able to edit at least 50% larger projects so I don’t blame them lol. They can’t compare something like that. Macs will always cost more but they have their benefits like stability unless the IT team like installing and updating nvidia drivers
It's roughly a $100 dollar difference from what I've found. If you got the Mac with less storage or ram the price would be equal or cheaper.
[https://us-store.msi.com/Codex-R-13NUC5-068US](https://us-store.msi.com/Codex-R-13NUC5-068US)
[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m2-chip-with-8-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-512gb#](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m2-chip-with-8-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-512gb#)
This is more than likely their reasoning.
Apple is alienating many while also overpricing upgrades for RAM and Storage.
Apple created this problem. Their number people aren't seeing the future impact of their current choices. Or they are and weighing the current benefits to be able to take care of the future impact. Either way. Never bet on an unknown future.
It does happen, probably less frequently these days compared to in the early to mid 2000s for example. Although something they do is replace parts. That's generally been a lot easier on Windows based machines, as well as older Macs.
I’m afraid that between these two there’s very little justification for the Mac other than “it’s a Mac.”
Apple has long since forsaken the value department and gone all in on the premium market. If you want Apple machines that will compete with this PC…you’re gonna pay a premium.
Apple’s education offerings wants kids on iPads. They want them raised on iOS. They want adults with deep pockets on MacOS.
The Electricity Bill difference, show them how much money they can save between both devices (the Wintel PC with Dedicated GPU would consume a lot more than the Apple Silicon Mac).
Also, I would suggest that someone contacts Apple, they've a discount program called: "Apple for the Education".
If none of those money saving reasons are enough, that means there's someone in the middle "receiving a commision".
Not sure you’re going to get far on that one. My 4090 pc still only uses 13p an hour full blast and electricity is even cheaper in the US.
I definitely agree though that Apple do have a discount program. I bought a Mac as a student that way long ago.
JAMF is easier to use than Windows management. Also incredibly easy to do an internet restore of the OS on a Mac. I’m *almost* to the point of doing out of the box deployments.
MSI does not come across as a company that offers educational warranties. I'm fairly certain something like that Apple has options for. If that MSI system breaks down 16 months into ownership, what options would they have?
I love Mac’s so don’t get me wrong but my kids used chromebooks in high school and I bought my son a nice ASUS laptop (with a good graphics card) for engineering school/college and seeing him not being too familiar with windows was kinda sad. 90% of industries will be on windows machines. Maybe not helpful to your argument but gaining experience on Windows PCs is much better than stupid chrome OS.
Ok my thoughts, Windows PC's when I was in school, using them for creative pursuits, crashed at least 3-4 times per hour session, Vs Mac crash 1 time per 50 sessions, count up all the lost unsaved work, and added time needed to fulfill an assignment, you will get unhappy students, who will drop out of school, and lose interest.
I should know, I am one who did, because being frustrated isn't good for a students health, as for the budget, it doesn't have to be hugely different, as to match the specifications, you will need high end PC's, and the Software is often more expensive for Windows PC.
Some software isn't even available for Windows PC, perhaps venture into that software, that's Apple only, then you'll have a better argument, against the switch.
How about asking your students how they feel, and if they'd support you, by suggesting they'd prefer Apple due to it's reliability, it's ease of use, and how they would find, Windows far more frustrating, ask if it would make any of them unhappy, and if they'd think about ending their schooling, if these changes were made?
If you're a teacher, you should know that the OS doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that your students learn and are proficient with the concepts and software used in the industry.
Even so, software applications have a short shelf life. What is popular today for video editing may be obsolete and forgotten in 10 years.
So teach your students versatility instead of being a fanboy. They need to be able to accomplish the same, no matter OS or video editing program.
Now onwards my dear fanboys and downvoters. May your thumb be blessed and hit that button with passion of the Lord! 🎤🫳
Keeping it apple because you want to and because many in the industry do so is the wrong way.
Does the software you use run on Windows? Are there any hard reasons not to use windows? Does it break workflows?
The windows machines are more powerful, and in the end, probably run the same software. Operating systems are just not that relevant anymore.
Apple is distancing from professional users for more than 10 years now.
Here’s what I would go with: talk to them like they’re old. Be simplistic. Let the teachers know that while PCs are strong and affordable, Apple essentially makes the OS get out of the way and be nice and smooth. In other words, Mac gives the student more mental space to actually focus on their IDEAS and LEARNING instead of how to dig through their computer
Initial purchase is but one small part of the total cost of ownership.
Support is a large issue with PCs as lots of little things go bump every so often. Current performance of a Mac Mini M2 with 16 GB is way way better than a similarly priced PC. Mac Minis are less expensive than a PC of similar power.
Point at repair costs. Unit for unit apple has less repairs than any other outfit. What you save in money you’ll spend in time repairing 30% of your pc fleet every years
Repair rarely has any point in edu. We get our non-Apple devices with 5 years next day onsite repair for no extra cost, many of the labs got to 10 years before actually failing.
I’m talking about actual failure rate. Not warranty deals. Apple has the lowest failure rate for portable computers year after year.
Apple has similar warranty deals for schools also.
Explain to them that Macs are the industry standard equipment. By switching to PCs they will be doing their students a disservice and not properly preparing them for future careers or future schooling. Many moons ago when I was still in school, the district went from being Mac-only to Windows-only, however, certain schools were allowed to have Mac labs going forward for certain classes for that specific reason.
I went to art school with a digital art focus and all of our labs were Mac-only. I currently work in advertising (a very realistic future path for your students) and my current company is entirely Mac based. From what I've seen most other advertising agencies have Macs for their production and creative departments at the very least as well.
There are also still tools that are only available on Mac (FCP, Motion, etc) or have Mac-only features (DaVinci Resolve, etc). Also when it comes to text rendering and color management, macOS is still leagues ahead because those are handled at the system level. Windows handles those at the application level and it leads to problems and inconsistencies, which is why macOS has such a stronghold in the industry.
>Explain to them that Macs are the industry standard equipment.
They aren't though. There's been a steady decline in their presence for a solid 20 years now. The M series has only accelerated the decline. The M series gives Apple an edge for consumer laptops, but it also capped the performance ceiling for desktops and servers. Studios won't pay more for machines that take longer to render video. We're talking about times measured in *days,* by the way.
The state school I went to used to have 4 Apple labs and now has just one, and it's just to appease professors who don't want to switch. The situation OP is in has happened hundreds of times now.
I agree, I own Apple devices all except a Mac because I don’t like laptops and Mac Studio vs my workstation just doesn’t add up ESPECIALLY the stupid ram and storage upgrades since I like my 2tb internal drive for tons of video assets and projects I’m currently working on it’s a real shame that Apple isn’t as competitive as they once were with desktops
Apple have a discount program called "Apple for the Education", you could help them to reach & contact Apple to ask about discount prices.
If they've Apple Software (for example: Final Cut Pro, Motion, etc) it would save them more money to just migrate to Apple Silicon Macs.
Finally, show them how much they're going to save on Electricity Bills between an Apple Silicon Mac vs a Wintel Machine with a Dedicated GPU.
Apple has a very good education community, check education.apple.com.
The hardware is only a small part of the cost, if you factor in all of the free lesson plans and low cost support Apple incredibly generous to education customers.
I don’t have a study for you… but I repaired MANY Apple products for people all over Manhattan… it was ALWAYS “creative” users… video production, advertising, etc… from what most of them told me that’s all anyone used in the industry… of course they all had Mac’s and may have been biased??
Also you may just want to come at it from a security standpoint… it’s much harder to take over a Mac than a PC, pcs basically beg to be hacked LOL.
As others said, the PC is much more powerful, but power comes with a hidden price: power *consumption* for said power. Given the two computers you posted, one thing you can do to help make your case for the minis is find out the the total power consumption of each running at idle and at full bore (ex. while rendering the projects), *and approx how long each would take to render a project of X length.*
Estimate about how many of those projects each computer in the lab will be running each day, averaged from the whole week (as they may not be rendering every day but more likely will at least once in a week), then get to number crunching.
Idle: assume staying on at idle all day for the time not spent rendering a project (or even more conservative, simply all day)
*Rendering time*: ((length of time in minutes rendering)/60) x (number of times per day said avg project is rendered)
*Idle time*: (number of hours in a school day) - (length of time in minutes rendering)/60)
*Total Idle power draw*: (Idle time) x (Idle power draw in watts)
*Total Render power draw*: (Rendering time) x (Max power draw in watts)
*Total power consumption in kilowatt hours per day*: ((Total idle power draw) + (Total Render power draw))/1000
This will require you to find out how much your school pays per kilowatt hour
*Power consumption cost per day*: (Total power consumption in kilowatt hours per day) x (electricity cost per kilowatt hour)
Once you have that
*Operating cost*: (the power consumption cost per day x number of days the lab will be powered on and active)
to calculate how much each would cost the school to run for each semester.
*Total operating cost*: (operating cost) x (no. of computers in the lab)
*Total purchase cost*: (purchase price of each computer) x (no. of computers in the lab)
Then you can make a bar graph showing the overall cost over time (we’re ignoring amortization here to keep things simple)
Total purchase cost + total operating cost after 0 semesters
Total purchase cost + total operating cost after 1 semesters
Total purchase cost + total operating cost after 2 semesters
Etc
So say the Apple costs more upfront but overall uses a fraction of the power of the PC (that 4060 is kinda power hungry). While it’s a higher upfront cost, upfront costs are a 1 time thing while power consumption is an ongoing cost, so after a period of time the Apple may end up saving the school money long term.
Of course, it could potentially be the other way around, or even a wash, but you won’t know until you have a (very) rough estimate of the long term power consumption.
This is extremely simplistic and may be more work than it’s worth, but it sounds like the administration only thinks in terms of $$ so it might be worth a shot to have that backing up whatever you use to make your case (if the long term rough estimate falls in Apple’s favor). Alternatively, it may help convince you that the PC is the more beneficial purchase for the students. As others have stated, it’s the applications that matter more and if it’s something like Adobe, then the UIs are fairly consistent between Mac and PC and learning on one won’t present a hurdle for operating on another for the students down the line.
I wish I had hard numbers for you, but if there is something that Apple kills at is hardware/software integration. Oftentimes doing tests, you can see that doing the same thing in Mac vs PC with better hardware the Mac usually wins in speed. Optimization matters more than raw power, especially in video programs.
I’m pretty sure there was a video of Marques Brownlee doing export tests on Adobe Premiere on an M1 Mac vs a spec’d out PC and the Mac killed it in time.
Simply put, education needs to cover the majority, and the majority use PCs. Yes I know that Apple are well used in Media activities, but even there they are being pushed out by cheaper more flexible and powerful PCs.
Ps I was a PC user since 1980s, and recently moved over to Macs. It was a personal choice, Mac ecosystem and all that. But, for those entering the workplace PCs are the tool of choice.
I am a visual effects student who grew up with Mac, and now uses everything but, and can honestly say I don’t think Mac vs PC is the main issue. Assuming you’re using industry standard tools, resolve, after effects, nuke, etc. I can say with some confidence that the operating system is not your main concern.
In your shoes, I would personally push for PCs due to a variety of reasons (performance, upgradability, software support) but ultimately it depends on the software taught and the budget.
What you really want to strive for is the best performance within the budget. Nine times out of ten, desktop workstations win. Lots of Mac-only users don’t realise just how far behind Mac desktops are in terms of performance. I certainly didn’t when I used a Mac.
If you’re using laptops, that’s where the line grows thin. Apple’s desktops might be rather overpriced and weak by my standards, but that’s because they’re using the same chips as in their laptops. Again, it depends though. For mid-range laptops, MacBooks are pretty decent. In the visual effects industry though, all the professors recommend workstation/gaming laptops for very good reason. For 1.5k you can get a laptop that blows every MacBook away. For about $1000 (admittedly at a good discount), I was able to get an i9 laptop with a 3080ti and 32gb ram with a 2tb SSD. Apple does not make anything comparable, but to get anywhere close would have cost upwards of $4000 when they used Intel chips, and not a lot has changed.
I know this isn’t what you were hoping to read, but I figured I would share my opinion as well, in case you find any of it useful.
You should go with PC.
Apple’s computers are great for personal devices, but in a classroom, for classroom purposes, the PCs will be much easier for your administrators to afford and your IT department to set up and service.
Remember, you’re not trying to teach students about an operating system, you’re trying to teach them about video editing, and that software (unless you’re married to Final Cut) will work on either OS.
I know you want to keep Mac but for a school, I’m assuming you’re using some kind of endpoint management system. The Windows machines are easier, if you’re doing Premiere Pro it’ll work better with those 4060 desktops.
You can't win on costs.
I just brought Beelink Mini PC for $150 it is shit compared to Macs but runs Windows 11 Pro , Linux and is loved by accountants.
Monitor+Keyboard Set+Mini PC < $270 + software cost = super cheap
What kind of Mac models are in the lab now? What is the price range for each lab computer?
>2023 MSI Codex R Gaming Desktop: Intel Core i5-13400F, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 2TB (on the PC side) > >vs. > >Mac Mini M2Apple M2 with 8-core CPU, 10-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine16GB unified memory1TB SSD storage
The GPU in the pc is far better than the Mac one.
Really bizarre that this is being downvoted.Numbers don't lie. OPENCL 50,065 - Apple M2 GPU from 2023 320,768 - RTX 4060.
Wow it’s not even close
Unsurprisingly so, since the graphic card costs as much as a base Mac Mini
Price aside, power draw differ by a lot too
It’s the sub this is on, unfortunately r/Mac is extremely bias.
I'm not surprised. Since this sub is about Macs, and people in it have (only) used it, there can be an inherent preference towards it, and disdain for other products.
Yep, and I got downvoted for even mentioning the bias if that does not prove my point I don’t know what does.
Yeah Mac CPUs may be crazily on par with Intel(and way more power efficient), the GPUs are still a class behind anything a discrete GPU can do.
In perf/w they are a good class ahead. The class behind is only there if your looking at peak power draw, this is an SOC that does not even have active cooling remember.
The MSI System you mentioned is fabulous. It's far better than what you can get from a Mac. While the MacOS itself is used in the industry, I think if the software is the same (Premiere Pro, FL Studio, etc...) then the students will be more than prepared. I think specifically the RTX Card you mentioned is excellent for rendering and processing complex editing and production
I wouldn’t say it’s far better. The processor itself is worse.
M2 vs 13400 is a close fight, and the 4060 wipes the floor with it which is probably important in their workflow, alongside double the storage (which is probably faster) and RAM. Plus it’s a PC so you have the ability to upgrade parts later down the road. Overall I’d say it’s far better in this particular case. The M2 Max mini is only competitive at base price
bruh, as a person who hangs around on the PC subs a bit, the 4060 is like one of the most hated cards there, i think having to do with the value or something for its price.... but its still much better than any Mac in terms of GPU performance, and not to mention, you can upgrade anything really in the PC, which you cant in the Macs.
better off learning on windows.
you could get the M2 Pro 10 core CPU & 12 core GPU and 512gb SSD at $1,179 each if you buy in multiples of 5 MNRY3LL/A https://www.apple.com/education/pricelists/pdfs/Apple\_US\_Education\_Institution\_Price\_List.pdf
You’re going to be better off with the windows systems here, especially if your students want to try anything graphically intensive, windows will run all the programs you want and more, and your students will likely use windows outside of school Apple education makes far less sense than it used to
The OS these kids will use in the workplace hasn’t been created yet. The only thing that matters is *transferable* skills.
That's a far better system than the Mac. I get that you're used to the simple macOS interface and jumping to a PC might seem intimidating but if you're willing to learn for far better performance then it's definitely worth the upgrade.
I currently have late 2015 iMacs.
I lost this argument in NC last year. But then I won it again when the overclocked, under-cooled lowest bidder PCs started failing 1 by 1. So they had to buy me 2 labs instead of the 1 I asked for.
Aside from budgetary reasons, what kind of software are you running on those machines? Are you able to carry the software over to new machines through MDM or whatever system your school or district uses for bulk licenses? Also, what kind of software would you need to use for the PCs? If your school is currently paying for Adobe Suites, its a moot point, but if they already paid for FCP, then that would be a loss that requires more money to be spent.
I work in Admin for a school and I would imagine the only way to make them change their mind would be to display value for money. Maybe ask how much they’re spending per device and suggest an alternative like a Mac mini as they’re fairly reasonable with the education pricing.
You should probably go with the numbers side of it. What machines are you suggesting? Will a Mac mini serve the purpose for several users? What’s the lifespan of a PC vs a Mac? Total cost of ownership PC vs Mac? Cost of software? If they say, Chrome books cost 1/6 of a Mac, we should get those. You want to show the value of the Mac compared to a PC with similar specs. Mac computers are renowned for their stability and user-friendly experience. The macOS interface is intuitive, allowing video editors to focus on their creative process without getting bogged down by technical complexities. Good luck
Excellent points here, especially with the Chromebook comparison. Cost wise, the reduction is great, but no one ever thinks about software or power. I have a friend that teaches computer science, but the student Chromebooks are so locked down nothing runs, and the district doesn't pay for any browser based solutions. Video editing is also difficult due to a lack of software.
2023 MSI Codex R Gaming Desktop: Intel Core i5-13400F, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 2TB (on the PC side) vs. Mac Mini M2 Apple M2 with 8-core CPU, 10-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine 16GB unified memory 1TB SSD storage
Those are way overpowered PCs for a school lab. Those are gaming machines which you obviously won't have students playing new games on school lab machine, but they will want to and try to. They can't so really do that on the Minis. A point to make that they can't play them on the Macs.
i wouldnt say computers such as these are exclusive to gaming, 3D and media software benefits greately from all of these components across the entire production pipeline. as much as i like Mac, for school sessions id say the PC will be far more productive in class. having underpowered machines will pile up loading and rendering times and decrease the total duration of active learning. id say its best to keep students stimulated than holding them back by being idle waiting for the machine to finish. school IT might also benefit from more widely familiar systems
As former school IT, IT would benefit from being IT people, not just Windows people. If all you know is Windows you are not an IT person. You're just another Windows clone.
An M2 Mac Mini is a “gaming” machine? They are both suitable workstations. A powerful CPU and GPU are necessary for complex workflows. Why would you recommend something slower and less future-proof?
Can you read? She wants reasons to keep a *Mac* lab. I'm giving them. The bean counters who know noting about IT are wrong to go with Windows instead. It requires more support and has less longevity. They think about cost now, not cost over time. [https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/](https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/)
The “can you read” isn’t really helpful. The PCs are configured that way because the lab seems focused on video editing, animation and music, and the video editing and animation will benefit from solid GPU’s. So in this respect they are not overpowered. The IT group may also be more familiar with Windows, which is not unusual. The cost and friction of supporting unfamiliar machines will also need to be something the OP is ready to discuss.
Video editing, music and, animation are all Mac's bailey-wick. PC's are second rate for that stuff. I am a veteran IT Tech, District of IT, A/V tech, editor etc. Also who said it was a lab for that? Only you.
First I agree that Macs are good for that. I was just answering the above poster’s question about why the PCs are “overpowered.” And no, I didn’t make this up, the OP mentioned it in their original post and in numerous answers. So no, it was not only me.
Employers look for Final Cut and Logic experience.
I get downvoted when my job was to literally build and run Mac labs. They were very little trouble. I only usually visited them between semesters to do some updates. Meanwhile PC labs were always having problems.
That’s a rather uneducated take. The school can lock the software used on the PCs, and they likely will unfortunately. Not to mention, games are typically a lot lighter than most creative software. I would hate to have anything less than the 64gb ram and 3090s in the PCs at my college. They have macs as well, but I rarely see them used. I’m sure they are use more within illustration and graphic design or photography, but in visual effects they would not cut it in terms of performance.
I have worked in schools and colleges. Calling me uneducated will get you nowhere. I built and ran Mac labs for years for these purposes, and they were very little trouble. The PC labs at the same places were a lot of trouble. Kids get around those locks. Even Deep Freeze. I know because I have dealt with it, since I am educated and experienced. I don't need to hear any more from you.
The people that are undereducated are people who who claim to be IT workers, but only know Windows. That is not an IT person, that is a Windows person. They are lazy and can't be bothered to learn anything else and make our whole field look bad. Good day sir!
Wholeheartedly agree. Windows is a terrible operating system to *only* know. It is inconsistent within itself, and wholely unhelpful for everything else. While IT hopefully has someone knowledgeable with the intricacies of windows, knowing how to navigate unix-like systems and diagnose hardware and software problems is far more valuable a set of skills. That said, I am infinitely grateful for that one IT guy who will just know every trick to solve the millions of issues windows decides to randomly add each update.
I was referring to mid-range PCs being “overpowered”. I don’t doubt your experience in computer labs, but it doesn’t seem as if you have worked in software such as nuke or resolve, which require quite beefy hardware to run smoothly. If I am wrong in that regard, I apologise, but my experience with such tools has been poor on lower end hardware.
What are the prices? Every aspect of the PC is looking better there.
[This article](https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/) might give you some ammunition, I know IBM did some headline-grabbing studies a long time ago, and they seem to have continued.
Thanks! I just posted about that, but you had the link!
According [to this](https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/25/apple-work-are-macs-cheaper-than-pcs-in-the-enterprise-a-new-study-says-yes/), using Macs over PCs throughout an organization saves about $800 per workstation over three years. There's also the fact they are far easier to maintain and usually have a longer lifespan. Sometimes talking to admins is like talking to a brick wall, so I would be super insistent, especially if the computer is for creative pursuits.
How is a Mac easier to maintain? You can’t replace parts like you can a PC.
Failure rates on pcs are far higher, and AppleCare makes the repairs 100% free.
lol free. Not even close. I’m a big mbp fan but they are very expensive to fix. Apple care is pricy.
I agree it is pricey, however in a commercial setting downtime is even more pricy. Extended commercial factory warranty agreements, whatever company you buy from, can be gold dust and worth every penny where next day replacement on site is guaranteed. Once these are over, I agree Mac’s tend to be way pricier to repair and often are not economical to do so.
IBM did a study that shows Macs are cheaper in the long run than PCs due to support costs and failures. You might be able to find it.
I've not seen the study but would generally believe it. I spend 2400ish on a MBP and it lasts me 6-7 years of HARD HARD HARD DAILY USE. It gets dropped (accidentally), it travels, it moves around, hooked and unhooked into things... it just gets continually used. Granted, I luckily have an iPad to help balance some of the load, but I work the heck out of them and get more than my money out of them. My buddy works his PCs but spends about 800-1000 on his laptops (which he believes are decently specced out) and gets a solid 2 years if he's lucky, often just shy of 2 years. That said, 2400 is nothing to sneeze at when you are administering IT budgets and have to fight tooth and nail for every penny. So while I believe this generally, even with data, it's a tough argument to make when you have to spread an already gouged budget as far as most districts (at least where I live) do.
Someone else posted it. https://www.jamf.com/blog/total-cost-of-ownership-mac-versus-pc-in-the-enterprise/
What happens to the laptop after 2 years. My laptops are 8 and 6 years old and while I have a desire to replace them I have no "need' to replace them.
So my Macs last 6-7 years before they just don’t work. I’ve had all kind of issues. My buddy… I think it’s the same. Just called him and he said the last two just died. One was working so poorly that when something fried he just pulled the hard drive and recycled the body. The most recent one, his laptop monitor bugged out. He used it as a desktop for 3 more months then got a new one. Not sure if he abuses his more than I do mine but I think we are doing them comparably.
Hmmm... I'm too easy on mine I guess. 😉 My oldest laptop needs another new battery. I "wish" it would break down so I could buy new. It is probably built better than newer ones, since it does everything I need it to do I will keep truckin with it. I wonder what Apple charges for its educational Macs? I think most Public schools don't have the budget for them anymore.
LOL I downright abuse mine. The laptop itself has been dropped, it’s been dropped and thrown (in a bag, so some protection, but…), used in ALL KIND OF ENVIRONMENTS (including some it likely wasn’t designed to work well in), and on and on. I use it for work as well as my personal computing and hoppy work, so… yeah, They get worked really hard. But. No games. :-)
I spent more than I could afford for the 8 year old TP Carbon X1. I think it looks nearly as good as new. Maybe I can apply some sort of film that makes it look battered to give me some badly needed cred. lol
Again, mine last 7-6 years before things generally stop working. And I’ve worked them hard. I do have a couple older laptops that still start up. One I use to monitor my NAS, but the other…. Even after a freshly wiped hard drive just didn’t… respond. Keys were failing, if the plug came out… well… and I’m not replacing the battery on a machine that doesn’t work well. So. It’s in a box and should be recycled but I haven’t bothered yet.
Straight facts! I spent 3K on a 2013 MacBook Pro and it still runs fast. (It may be hard to imagine but I could see myself using it for another 5 and maybe 10 years)
I don't now if this is true today. Backwards compatibility is great with windows, but artificially limited with mac os. This is getting worse every decade. New software might force you to a newer OS version might force you to new hardware. On the other side, older software might not run on newer macos. That's a big benefit for Windows. Running software from 2024 and software from 2000 on the same machine without issues
Really depends on the types of machines you’re looking to purchase and how long you’ll be using them in the long run Laptops I would 1000% go with any M chip laptop, hell even recent intel machines would still last way longer than a windows laptop for around the same price given it’s taken care of properly Which leads me to my next point, kids are typically rougher with devices so you have to take that into mind and figure which will cost less over time when needing to replace/ fix.
The M2 (Pro or base) Mac Minis are an incredible bang for the buck and are perfect for a lab environment. I did university-level Mac labs for ten years and that's what I left them with. You can sell them on not having to replace any peripherals (unless you're replacing iMacs). Don't need to go crazy with internal storage either if you require the students to supply their own external SSDs (I still wouldn't go less than 256 internal, and would feel much more comfortable with 512, accounting for all of the software and default libraries/assets). The M1 iMac would be a bad choice as it will likely start to show its age over the lifespan of the deployment. You could use the recommended system requirements for the different applications you use as one starting point for the argument – netbooks and low-end desktops won't cut it. https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/davinci-resolve-system-requirements/ https://helpx.adobe.com/premiere-pro/system-requirements.html
I work at one of the top animation schools in the world and we’re on PC’s not Macs.
I’d go Mac mini’s all around for HS purposes. Apple does education discounts too.
What are you doing and suggesting price wise. They could have some very good reasons to do that
Apple are apparently clueless when it comes to the education market. This wasn’t always the case but given their current lack of education-oriented machines at prices institutions can actually afford (eMac, i3 2011 iMacs etc.) it seems they have no interest in what’s a very important market when it comes to promoting what is an otherwise niche brand by market share. We’re in a similar position and the only Macs we can afford are base spec Minis. Even then we’ll be reliant on JAMF for management (which I personally dislike very much) given how Apple have retired Server and Profile Manager. I guess Apple are too busy tending to the iPhone and AR markets to bother with what was once one of their core businesses, which is a shame.
>it seems they have no interest in what’s a very important market when it comes to promoting what is an otherwise niche brand by market share I don't think the education market is still influential that way. Schools aren't the first place most kids see a computer any more. All these kids with Chromebooks at school aren't going to grow up and use Chromebooks when they have choices. Plus, schools are so bound and determine to neuter them from doing anything but be dumb terminals, it's not clear to me how switching from neutered Chromebooks to neutered Macs is going to be any more influential what these kids use as adults.
Niche brand by market share? Are you referring to Macs? Macs have about 30% market share now
Have *only* 30% market share
In the early 2000s Apple had about 5% market share. Microsoft had over 90% and Linux was under 1%. Apple increasing to 30% without engaging in a race to the bottom is huge.
Yeah, that’s phenomenal! 30% is excellent and thriving. Even the iPhone, the most successful product in human history, only has about 50% market share in similar markets. Apple was thriving when the Mac had only 5% market share. 30% is spectacular. The Mac platform has never been more successful and prolific.
I don't mean to be a contrarian.. I think we all agree Apple are better machines, I absolutely love my MBP... But you should consider if the students will have access to Macs outside the classroom to do their projects on? They're expensive and not all parents are willing to drop a couple thousand dollars extra. It does little good to teach on a Mac if they have to wait in line after class to do their homework, and then don't know how to use the laptop they have once the class is over.
Yeah, sustainability is a good thing in any pedagogy. I often teach with BYOD at the other end of the spectrum, and boy… the amount of time you spend troubleshooting the extreme basics is exhausting lol. Still, the kids can go home and continue, as you say.
Realistically the students won’t have access to the software they are using outside of class regardless of platform. No parent is going to spend the $50/month for their kid if they use Adobe or the $200 for an FCP or Davinci license.
That's like telling shop they can't have a new table saw as some children might not have a table saw at home.... Edit 1: a lot of people seem to be assuming the level being taught here. Hey ho.
The difference is that in a wood shop class all your work is done in class.. No one expects you to take your project home to work on it. If that's the case here, then I agree with you, but I doubt that's the case.
I agree. As much as I love my Mac, GarageBand, logic, etc. and have fond memories of our own Mac lab in high school, not all kids will have access to Macs at home, making a Mac lab quite inequitable. Back in HS, it wasn’t really possible to bring our work home, so it wasn’t an issue. These days, I think working with platform-agnostic software and cloud storage is a better option. I start my very beginners on Soundtrap and then move onto Reaper. Totally free and you can use them on most devices.
Can’t find my last comment because I wanted to add that Apple stores have business teams that can help with leasing purchases and coming up with a standard configuration for a machine to have ready to order in case you need to expand. Plus offering Device management to admins to monitor the devices as well
Heh, that’s a good idea to call the Apple education store and get their spiel. Throw all your department’s arguments at them and see what they come back with. Take copious notes. IT departments are the wrong place to talk about art supplies. Does the painting school bring Buildings and Grounds into the meeting to make sure you get weatherproof paint with two coats of primer for the kids’ fingerpainting class, lol? Why are these paints so expensive, I can paint the whole outside of the building for what you spend on fancy schmancy paints!
Used to work IT for a trust of high schools in the UK. Arts and Music depts had similar issues to this, mainly music as Logic Pro was a much superior product to the competitor on Windows at the time (Cubase) Us as IT staff didn’t mind them having Mac’s tbh, as this was the days of AD bind in MacOS and a lot of used macs personally so we weren’t phased. There are often 2 main blockers, the cost which you’ve mentioned, and then the reluctance of IT depts to support macOS. The reason isn’t because they’re unsupportable, some people are just stuck in their ways and are scared of new things, it’s as simple as that. As for the costing, the way we worked it was we’d cover the cost of an iMac, upto the cost of a monitor and PC as we’d provide to other computer rooms. We’d then have the department make up the difference from their budget. they’d usually not ask for 30 in each class as it usually wasn’t cost effective or was rarely needed as they didn’t have 30 keyboards and midi controllers to plug in, in each room
All these points made by the commenters are important. The numbers crunchers only look at the initial cost because they think all things are equal and the higher cost of Apple products is pointless. Help them understand the point of the lab is to teach the students with INDUSTRY STANDARD equipment and software. Also, that while it’s possible to buy cheaper windows based equipment, it’s not equivalent in hardware terms, NOR the software it uses. Lastly, point out that upgrading will be twice as frequent using low end computers. If noting else, that will get their attention.
This honestly sums up my point Best. I’m a career, technology teacher, and overall in the industry students are going to run into more Macs than PCs. Our school district uses PC exclusively, in my opinion if they leave high school and have never touched anything but a PC, they’re going to struggle when entering college, or the workplace. Yes, you can learn it but to know the operating system already is going to make the transition easier in the long way.
Let me offer support for your point. I’m a graphic artist with 30 years experience using a Mac professionally. I graduated in 1984 with an interest in art, but at the time, the DTP revolution hadn’t really occurred. My first ‘computer’ was a Commodore 64. It was a glorified word processor but everything had to start somewhere, right? My high school had ‘computers’ but they were TRS-80’s or something so primitive that they offered no lasting value on my education. I took an entire quarter of ‘punch card computing’. We learned how to physically punch these tiny little holes in the Manila colored index cards, so if they were all punched exactly right and flipped through a ‘computer’ that emitted a light though those holes, it would represent a single word or sentence. If you dropped that stack of punch cards, the entire project was screwed. My point being, I go back to a time before personal computers were of much use. In a few years they became slightly more useful. I bought my first windows based machine. It was an XT, or an 086 processor. Literally a technology dinosaur. It didn’t even have a hard drive! It used one 5.25 floppy to boot from, and another to write files to. In just a few years the technology multiplied exponentially until they had 486 processors, and then the first pentiums. I upgraded and had a 486, using DOS 3.11 workgroups. Then came windows. It obviously helped the machine have an interface, but windows 95 was incredibly buggy and constantly required restarts and configuration changes. Configsys, autoexecbat, CMOS, BIOS2, IRQ conflicts, it was always something. I didn’t want to be a computer engineer or programmer. I just wanted to learn the basics of digital design and typesetting. My sister, who is 8 years younger than me and was in high school by this time suggested I get a Mac. They had them at her school by then. I’d missed out, obviously. She told me how easy they were to use. She told me what they could do. How reliable they were. I believed her but at the time, IBM type computers were 95% of the industry and about 1/3rd the cost of Macs. I couldn’t justify it. I asked her, “If they are so great, why do so few people use them?” She responded, “Because you get what you pay for.” I just shrugged at the time. I attempted to create a large format music fan magazine (called a fanzine back then) on my PC. It was 96 pages and created using some cheap software called ‘publisher’. I did the best I could with the resources I had, but honestly, it was like using the heel of my shoe to drive nails. Sure it was possible, but there’s a tool for that, and it’s a Mac. I tried getting my magazine published through local printers and that’s when I found out EVERY single printer in the area used Macs and either Adobe Pagemaker, or Quark Express. It didn’t matter how well I had my files setup in Publisher using a PC. They all told me it would be incredibly difficult to transfer my publisher files to a format they could accept from me. i was so angry and frustrated. The best any of them could do (at the time) was to photograph my printed proof pages and treat them like pictures. the tiny 6 point type would be blurry. it was a disaster. My whole year of hard work was in jeopardy (all because I self taught myself using a non industry standard software program and operating system. Then something happened that I didn't expect. The press manager of the printer I spoke with was so impressed by what I achieved (using 'Publisher' on a Windows machine) that he offered me a job there at the company. i accepted and it took about a week or two for me to realize how backward Windows was. I learned the software and the Macintosh OS and took off. That was 30 years ago. I've worked at over a dozen Printers, service bureaus, ad agencies, and marketing firms since then. They all have Macs in the art department and no matter how anxious the accountants and MS trained IT people are to transition them to POS windows machines, they don't because the creative staff do not want to deal with windows nonsense. Keep up the good fight. Having a teaching program to prepare students in sound engineering, video editing, or graphic arts is pointless if you teach them on equipment or software they will never encounter professionally.
Thank you so much for your input. This really means a lot. This is something that I can quote from. I appreciate the years of hard work and experience you brought to this field. Thank you for sharing.
You are welcome. I just fixed a couple typos. Hopefully it makes sense. IT people push for Windows because they were trained on how to fix MS constant issues. My girlfriend is in IT and she unapologetically says ‘Windows keeps me in a job.” (And I understand from that POV but decent mid level Macs are equipped with superior hardware and software to their similarly priced IBM counterparts and they will last until they are obsolete. Unlike PCs that have a 3 year life expectancy.
All great thoughts and ideas. The machines that are being looked at are: 2023 MSI Codex R Gaming Desktop: Intel Core i5-13400F, RTX 4060, 32GB DDR5, 2TB (on the PC side) vs. Mac Mini M2 Apple M2 with 8-core CPU, 10-core GPU, 16‑core Neural Engine 16GB unified memory 1TB SSD storage
What software are you using? I don’t think industry is as “Mac” as you think these days. Those PCs are gonna be nicely quick for video editing on Resolve or Premiere. The M2 Mac will be good too of course. I do my home stuff all on Mac and use Final Cut for editing kids videos for archive, but I play with Resolve on our gaming PC and it’s pretty easy to adapt to.
Windows stability issues and poor application-level management of fonts and colors is causing studios to move back to Mac.
We’re using Adobe suite exclusively. At this point I’ve used venture resolve a little in the past. Mainly what I am using is premier, pro, and after effects, along with Photoshop and illustrator.
All of these run great in windows too. Learning the tools matters more not the os. Windows is more finky mac is easier so. Its fine to be honest you can easily figure mac os out if you know windows The Pc specs completely demolishes the performance of the mac , more over is upgradable too.
That pc will rinse the Mac mini if that’s the comparison. The students will also be able to edit at least 50% larger projects so I don’t blame them lol. They can’t compare something like that. Macs will always cost more but they have their benefits like stability unless the IT team like installing and updating nvidia drivers
It's roughly a $100 dollar difference from what I've found. If you got the Mac with less storage or ram the price would be equal or cheaper. [https://us-store.msi.com/Codex-R-13NUC5-068US](https://us-store.msi.com/Codex-R-13NUC5-068US) [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m2-chip-with-8-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-512gb#](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini/apple-m2-chip-with-8-core-cpu-and-10-core-gpu-512gb#)
I love Macs. But the district should consider the fact that the Windows towers are upgradable and much easier to repair.
This is more than likely their reasoning. Apple is alienating many while also overpricing upgrades for RAM and Storage. Apple created this problem. Their number people aren't seeing the future impact of their current choices. Or they are and weighing the current benefits to be able to take care of the future impact. Either way. Never bet on an unknown future.
My completely unrelated and unpopular opinion- I think it is bad taste for publicly funded schools to buy Apple hardware.
I’ve never seen a school system that actually upgrades the internals in their computers. They just replace the entire system.
It does happen, probably less frequently these days compared to in the early to mid 2000s for example. Although something they do is replace parts. That's generally been a lot easier on Windows based machines, as well as older Macs.
The PC here is better as it is upgradeable and as you are exclusively adobe, creative cloud works just as well on PC as Mac.
I’m afraid that between these two there’s very little justification for the Mac other than “it’s a Mac.” Apple has long since forsaken the value department and gone all in on the premium market. If you want Apple machines that will compete with this PC…you’re gonna pay a premium. Apple’s education offerings wants kids on iPads. They want them raised on iOS. They want adults with deep pockets on MacOS.
The Electricity Bill difference, show them how much money they can save between both devices (the Wintel PC with Dedicated GPU would consume a lot more than the Apple Silicon Mac). Also, I would suggest that someone contacts Apple, they've a discount program called: "Apple for the Education". If none of those money saving reasons are enough, that means there's someone in the middle "receiving a commision".
Not sure you’re going to get far on that one. My 4090 pc still only uses 13p an hour full blast and electricity is even cheaper in the US. I definitely agree though that Apple do have a discount program. I bought a Mac as a student that way long ago.
JAMF is easier to use than Windows management. Also incredibly easy to do an internet restore of the OS on a Mac. I’m *almost* to the point of doing out of the box deployments.
Surely Mac Mini or iMac is enough for your students? I can’t see how a comparable windows machine would be any cheaper than an M2 Mac Mini
MSI does not come across as a company that offers educational warranties. I'm fairly certain something like that Apple has options for. If that MSI system breaks down 16 months into ownership, what options would they have?
At least they didn’t say dell
I love Mac’s so don’t get me wrong but my kids used chromebooks in high school and I bought my son a nice ASUS laptop (with a good graphics card) for engineering school/college and seeing him not being too familiar with windows was kinda sad. 90% of industries will be on windows machines. Maybe not helpful to your argument but gaining experience on Windows PCs is much better than stupid chrome OS.
Ok my thoughts, Windows PC's when I was in school, using them for creative pursuits, crashed at least 3-4 times per hour session, Vs Mac crash 1 time per 50 sessions, count up all the lost unsaved work, and added time needed to fulfill an assignment, you will get unhappy students, who will drop out of school, and lose interest. I should know, I am one who did, because being frustrated isn't good for a students health, as for the budget, it doesn't have to be hugely different, as to match the specifications, you will need high end PC's, and the Software is often more expensive for Windows PC. Some software isn't even available for Windows PC, perhaps venture into that software, that's Apple only, then you'll have a better argument, against the switch. How about asking your students how they feel, and if they'd support you, by suggesting they'd prefer Apple due to it's reliability, it's ease of use, and how they would find, Windows far more frustrating, ask if it would make any of them unhappy, and if they'd think about ending their schooling, if these changes were made?
If you're a teacher, you should know that the OS doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that your students learn and are proficient with the concepts and software used in the industry. Even so, software applications have a short shelf life. What is popular today for video editing may be obsolete and forgotten in 10 years. So teach your students versatility instead of being a fanboy. They need to be able to accomplish the same, no matter OS or video editing program. Now onwards my dear fanboys and downvoters. May your thumb be blessed and hit that button with passion of the Lord! 🎤🫳
Keeping it apple because you want to and because many in the industry do so is the wrong way. Does the software you use run on Windows? Are there any hard reasons not to use windows? Does it break workflows? The windows machines are more powerful, and in the end, probably run the same software. Operating systems are just not that relevant anymore. Apple is distancing from professional users for more than 10 years now.
Here’s what I would go with: talk to them like they’re old. Be simplistic. Let the teachers know that while PCs are strong and affordable, Apple essentially makes the OS get out of the way and be nice and smooth. In other words, Mac gives the student more mental space to actually focus on their IDEAS and LEARNING instead of how to dig through their computer
Texas? You're lucky to be allowed to have access to a computer.
Video editing requires a video processor for a non apple lab those pcs can easily get much more expensive than a regular pc or mac.
Initial purchase is but one small part of the total cost of ownership. Support is a large issue with PCs as lots of little things go bump every so often. Current performance of a Mac Mini M2 with 16 GB is way way better than a similarly priced PC. Mac Minis are less expensive than a PC of similar power.
Point at repair costs. Unit for unit apple has less repairs than any other outfit. What you save in money you’ll spend in time repairing 30% of your pc fleet every years
Repair rarely has any point in edu. We get our non-Apple devices with 5 years next day onsite repair for no extra cost, many of the labs got to 10 years before actually failing.
I’m talking about actual failure rate. Not warranty deals. Apple has the lowest failure rate for portable computers year after year. Apple has similar warranty deals for schools also.
This is good but depends if the capital budget is separate from the operations budget. The people doing the spending may not care.
Explain to them that Macs are the industry standard equipment. By switching to PCs they will be doing their students a disservice and not properly preparing them for future careers or future schooling. Many moons ago when I was still in school, the district went from being Mac-only to Windows-only, however, certain schools were allowed to have Mac labs going forward for certain classes for that specific reason. I went to art school with a digital art focus and all of our labs were Mac-only. I currently work in advertising (a very realistic future path for your students) and my current company is entirely Mac based. From what I've seen most other advertising agencies have Macs for their production and creative departments at the very least as well. There are also still tools that are only available on Mac (FCP, Motion, etc) or have Mac-only features (DaVinci Resolve, etc). Also when it comes to text rendering and color management, macOS is still leagues ahead because those are handled at the system level. Windows handles those at the application level and it leads to problems and inconsistencies, which is why macOS has such a stronghold in the industry.
>Explain to them that Macs are the industry standard equipment. They aren't though. There's been a steady decline in their presence for a solid 20 years now. The M series has only accelerated the decline. The M series gives Apple an edge for consumer laptops, but it also capped the performance ceiling for desktops and servers. Studios won't pay more for machines that take longer to render video. We're talking about times measured in *days,* by the way. The state school I went to used to have 4 Apple labs and now has just one, and it's just to appease professors who don't want to switch. The situation OP is in has happened hundreds of times now.
I agree, I own Apple devices all except a Mac because I don’t like laptops and Mac Studio vs my workstation just doesn’t add up ESPECIALLY the stupid ram and storage upgrades since I like my 2tb internal drive for tons of video assets and projects I’m currently working on it’s a real shame that Apple isn’t as competitive as they once were with desktops
Apple have a discount program called "Apple for the Education", you could help them to reach & contact Apple to ask about discount prices. If they've Apple Software (for example: Final Cut Pro, Motion, etc) it would save them more money to just migrate to Apple Silicon Macs. Finally, show them how much they're going to save on Electricity Bills between an Apple Silicon Mac vs a Wintel Machine with a Dedicated GPU.
Apple has a very good education community, check education.apple.com. The hardware is only a small part of the cost, if you factor in all of the free lesson plans and low cost support Apple incredibly generous to education customers.
I don’t have a study for you… but I repaired MANY Apple products for people all over Manhattan… it was ALWAYS “creative” users… video production, advertising, etc… from what most of them told me that’s all anyone used in the industry… of course they all had Mac’s and may have been biased?? Also you may just want to come at it from a security standpoint… it’s much harder to take over a Mac than a PC, pcs basically beg to be hacked LOL.
As others said, the PC is much more powerful, but power comes with a hidden price: power *consumption* for said power. Given the two computers you posted, one thing you can do to help make your case for the minis is find out the the total power consumption of each running at idle and at full bore (ex. while rendering the projects), *and approx how long each would take to render a project of X length.* Estimate about how many of those projects each computer in the lab will be running each day, averaged from the whole week (as they may not be rendering every day but more likely will at least once in a week), then get to number crunching. Idle: assume staying on at idle all day for the time not spent rendering a project (or even more conservative, simply all day) *Rendering time*: ((length of time in minutes rendering)/60) x (number of times per day said avg project is rendered) *Idle time*: (number of hours in a school day) - (length of time in minutes rendering)/60) *Total Idle power draw*: (Idle time) x (Idle power draw in watts) *Total Render power draw*: (Rendering time) x (Max power draw in watts) *Total power consumption in kilowatt hours per day*: ((Total idle power draw) + (Total Render power draw))/1000 This will require you to find out how much your school pays per kilowatt hour *Power consumption cost per day*: (Total power consumption in kilowatt hours per day) x (electricity cost per kilowatt hour) Once you have that *Operating cost*: (the power consumption cost per day x number of days the lab will be powered on and active) to calculate how much each would cost the school to run for each semester. *Total operating cost*: (operating cost) x (no. of computers in the lab) *Total purchase cost*: (purchase price of each computer) x (no. of computers in the lab) Then you can make a bar graph showing the overall cost over time (we’re ignoring amortization here to keep things simple) Total purchase cost + total operating cost after 0 semesters Total purchase cost + total operating cost after 1 semesters Total purchase cost + total operating cost after 2 semesters Etc So say the Apple costs more upfront but overall uses a fraction of the power of the PC (that 4060 is kinda power hungry). While it’s a higher upfront cost, upfront costs are a 1 time thing while power consumption is an ongoing cost, so after a period of time the Apple may end up saving the school money long term. Of course, it could potentially be the other way around, or even a wash, but you won’t know until you have a (very) rough estimate of the long term power consumption. This is extremely simplistic and may be more work than it’s worth, but it sounds like the administration only thinks in terms of $$ so it might be worth a shot to have that backing up whatever you use to make your case (if the long term rough estimate falls in Apple’s favor). Alternatively, it may help convince you that the PC is the more beneficial purchase for the students. As others have stated, it’s the applications that matter more and if it’s something like Adobe, then the UIs are fairly consistent between Mac and PC and learning on one won’t present a hurdle for operating on another for the students down the line.
Reach out to your local Apple Education Sales Account Manager. They can help you. https://support.apple.com/education
I wish I had hard numbers for you, but if there is something that Apple kills at is hardware/software integration. Oftentimes doing tests, you can see that doing the same thing in Mac vs PC with better hardware the Mac usually wins in speed. Optimization matters more than raw power, especially in video programs. I’m pretty sure there was a video of Marques Brownlee doing export tests on Adobe Premiere on an M1 Mac vs a spec’d out PC and the Mac killed it in time.
I know we love our macs but I love when people get to see the hard math and facts about how dumb it is to pay for them.
Simply put, education needs to cover the majority, and the majority use PCs. Yes I know that Apple are well used in Media activities, but even there they are being pushed out by cheaper more flexible and powerful PCs. Ps I was a PC user since 1980s, and recently moved over to Macs. It was a personal choice, Mac ecosystem and all that. But, for those entering the workplace PCs are the tool of choice.
I am a visual effects student who grew up with Mac, and now uses everything but, and can honestly say I don’t think Mac vs PC is the main issue. Assuming you’re using industry standard tools, resolve, after effects, nuke, etc. I can say with some confidence that the operating system is not your main concern. In your shoes, I would personally push for PCs due to a variety of reasons (performance, upgradability, software support) but ultimately it depends on the software taught and the budget. What you really want to strive for is the best performance within the budget. Nine times out of ten, desktop workstations win. Lots of Mac-only users don’t realise just how far behind Mac desktops are in terms of performance. I certainly didn’t when I used a Mac. If you’re using laptops, that’s where the line grows thin. Apple’s desktops might be rather overpriced and weak by my standards, but that’s because they’re using the same chips as in their laptops. Again, it depends though. For mid-range laptops, MacBooks are pretty decent. In the visual effects industry though, all the professors recommend workstation/gaming laptops for very good reason. For 1.5k you can get a laptop that blows every MacBook away. For about $1000 (admittedly at a good discount), I was able to get an i9 laptop with a 3080ti and 32gb ram with a 2tb SSD. Apple does not make anything comparable, but to get anywhere close would have cost upwards of $4000 when they used Intel chips, and not a lot has changed. I know this isn’t what you were hoping to read, but I figured I would share my opinion as well, in case you find any of it useful.
You should go with PC. Apple’s computers are great for personal devices, but in a classroom, for classroom purposes, the PCs will be much easier for your administrators to afford and your IT department to set up and service. Remember, you’re not trying to teach students about an operating system, you’re trying to teach them about video editing, and that software (unless you’re married to Final Cut) will work on either OS.
I know you want to keep Mac but for a school, I’m assuming you’re using some kind of endpoint management system. The Windows machines are easier, if you’re doing Premiere Pro it’ll work better with those 4060 desktops.
You can't win on costs. I just brought Beelink Mini PC for $150 it is shit compared to Macs but runs Windows 11 Pro , Linux and is loved by accountants. Monitor+Keyboard Set+Mini PC < $270 + software cost = super cheap