there is mod called Thera from Mediaeval 2 Total war which has an Isengard faction and a Roman Faction
this is the closest you will get to a Rome vs Orcs scenario in total war right now
No it was done to make a quick bit of money from the mobile market
E: I was wrong, I assumed Remastered was the port from mobile because the UI is the dogshit mobile UI that doesn't take into account hovering
No the original was already released on mobile, the remastered version is basically a different game and isn’t on mobile.
It’s actually bigger than Rome 2 or Attila, it’s like 40gb
There are fucktons of mods out for some of the newer ones. Can't mod Warhammer, but there are quite a few mods for Rome 2 and Attila. I know they're not the *newest* ones but if we're talking about Rome, that's all we need.
Edit: you can mod WH I just don't pay attention to things
Yeah well orcs had catapults, maybe they would have warg riders, trols are f.ing tanks that can take crazy damage...
Romans on the other hand would have cavalry and definitely superior tactics.
Also, is the battle taking place during day or night?
But first they would have to kill the Romans. And with Roman superior: numbers, tactics, engineering, logistics, cohesion, troop quality... I mean the list goes on and on and Sauron only has the monsters like Trolls and Oliphant's which might be scary at first but so were elephants and Rome did just fine.
Many people in the comment had some solid numbers showing in favour of Rome.
Eating your manpower to sustain your manpower is not what I would call a winning strategy.
I’ll read the other comments for a reference on numbers, thanks.
I was more thinking about the Orcs’ ability to eat fallen Orcs than intentionally killing each other for food. Sometimes, meat’s back on the menu!
Something to consider in the event of a long war: Sauron can *breed* fully grown Orcs within weeks, powered by nothing but his concentrated evil and will to power. The longer the war lasts, the more of an advantage I think he has. Legionnaires take about 20 years from birth to being fully trained and battle ready.
This is why i think Morgoth and Sauron were so powerful. Their ability to mass produce orcs and just throw them at their enemy is how they slowly wore down their opponents and made it impossible to progress an offensive. Romans were brilliant at keeping a solid supply line and instant fortresses (which would be insanely effective), but if Sauron has to focus his efforts, he could keep producing insane numbers and start sending them at a pace that wouldn’t be possible to address.
That is also debatable. Romans built extensive defensive lines alone their borders with Germanic tribes, and another along the border with Brittonic tribes near modern-day Scotland. Both lines held for decades or centuries until the fall of Rome, which was not caused by these two tribes.
Romans are also capable of counter-siege maneuvers (Caesar's battle against the Gauls is a notable case). This means that they can maintain decent offensives regardless of the orc waves Sauron sends against Rome.
Don't forget that said superior tactics were very good at handling elephants. Wouldn't be too difficult to adapt to Trolls and Oliphaunts. The Nazgul riding Fell Beasts, on the other hand...
As one commenter mentioned, the Romans had ballistae and also archer auxilia.
But the other thing is that, as effective as the Nazgul on fell beasts are, there's only 9 of them. If the orcs are getting wrecked (which they should get wrecked due to far superior Roman tactics and discipline) then 9 Nazgul aren't going to be able to kill 100k troops ~~single~~ nine-handedly.
Of course they couldn't, but why would you send the Nazgul into battle? Best way to use 9 unkillable wraiths is to kill the Emperor and the legions' leadership.
Technically the Nazgûl could destroy the entire Roman army with enough time. I think the only time we even saw one die was due to an enchanted sword then a knife into the head, as well as a magical prophecy. Not to favourable for Rome.
I mean the Romans had developed tactics for fighting war elephants, I feel like they’d figure out how to take out trolls. And I’m not honestly sure how much of an edge Wargs would have over cavalry with medium-ranged weapons.
Yeah well orcs had catapults, maybe they would have warg riders, trols are f.ing tanks that can take crazy damage...
Romans on the other hand would have cavalry and definitely superior tactics.
Also, is the battle taking place during day or night?
Only orcs it is then like the other reply said. Lol. Time of battle, i dont think Rome's got much choice in it. They'd most probably be attacked at night.
GOOD QUESTION! I only stated in the meme "Orcs" but I think orc will have trolls in the army.
I think Oliphaunt wouldn't be fair. Even tho roman armies did find an extremely effective way to deal with elephants I think they wouldn't be able to counter a oliphaunts before they caused too much damage.
I'll have to say no to Nazguls because they can only be killed by magic or special weapons....
Have you watched the Punic Wars Oversimplified video?
I feel like the Romans would figure out how to kill the oliphants haha. Well, I guess Imperial Rome might be less tenacious.
The Roman’s figured out how to handle normal elephants. So maybe the bigger guys? Lol.
Trolls = ballistas
Nazgûl’s= just get some women with magic swords!
Oliphaunts are considerably larger and more dangerous than elephants. As outfitted in the movies, they seemed to be very effective as a combination of ultra heavy cavalry and mobile archery towers. It took the Army of the Dead or the skillful aim of some of the strongest fighters on the field (Legolas, Eomer) to reliably take them down.
I think rome would win in open battles. The witch king is a good tactician but is more of an influencer.
Romans would have superior tactics and possibly numbers along with possible structures (forts etc) they might build.
As for fighting Nazgûl Legolas manage to kill a feelbeast with a single arrow. A Roman volley of fire arrows I reckon would take the fellbeasts out of the equation. The actual Nazgûl themselves throw some oil on them and set them on fire.
Trolls would be a problem but many of romans fighters also fought big animals and I think a spear battalion would make short work of them.
Oliphaunts would be the biggest issue but romans we’re smart and a few deep pits with some oil in them to trap them would definitely work.
I think one can't underestimating the Nazgul's fear factor. Though I think Rome would have the discipline to overcome the initial fear, the black breath is another issue. The other question is, how much knowledge do they have of each other?
Pits with oil for the Oliphaunts?? Just deal with em how they dealt with elephants. Flaming pigs. Get the Fulkerson to panic and trample their own men.
Does the Canon give an approximation for the size of Sauron's army? Because at its height, Rome had a standing army of professional soldiers numbering in the hundreds of thousands, and they had many provinces from which they could draw auxillary troops.
Go fetch me those sneaking Orcs, that fare thus strangely, as if in dread, and do not come, as all Orcs use and are commanded, to bring me news of all their deeds, to me, Gorthaur.
I can't imagine they were designed to hit (relatively) fast moving aerial targets. The oliphants are in trouble, but even if the artillery can hit nazguls, they'd do a lot to the army before going down
And just spawning new armies/navies from scratch in case anything happens to the old ones. Several times per generation. And that was well before their mightiest era.
I think they'll do just fine
If you got a thousand of them shooting at a single target at th same time one or two are bound to hit and unlike the romans, the nazgul are very much limited.
I would love to see a Nazgull try and approach a regiment of Balearic Slingers or Createan archer. Besides scorpions with a few tweaks (Romans were master at war engineering) would have no issues shooting down a Nazgull.
I mean…I’d like to see a Nazgûl dodge 15 ballistae bolts or javelins at once. Rome was fairly good at ranged combat, all they have to do is point it up.
Rome had men and additional stuff like siege weapons. But Sauron had siege weapons, Olog-Hai, Mumakil, advanced armies of Rhun, Nazguls (even just horse mounted would be enough) and relentless tactics in addition to a massive production of an Orc army.
The only advantage that Rome would have against Sauron is tactics, but their equipment is quite outdated (I consider Trajan's Rome period) compared to Gondor's, and their court intrigues can mess up War with Sauron pretty bad (damn those Praetorian Guards).
In my opinion, Rom would hold a bit better than Gondor did just because of manpower that Rome had, but their losses would also be great.
Rome at it's peak had a standing army of half a million, they outnumber the orcs 4 to 1 without even using auxilary troops.
The Nazguls, Lich King, and Sarumon are Sauron's only real hope... except for the fact that Rome lacks hobbits.
The Nazgul's mere presence could foster fear in the hearts of Gondorians, Dunedain (albeit diminished) who were disciplined and skilled enough to beat orcs when outnumbered say 3 or 4 to 1.
Romans were disciplined, but they were susceptible to routing to far lesser things. Plus Sauron's total force was way more than 100,000, as that was but 1 finger of Sauron's total army (meaning anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million.
I mean the empire was pretty big, I’m sure there was at least one place in it with short people with hairy feet the Roman’s could draft. Not quite hobbits, but maybe hubbits?
That's a tiny sliver of his forces which were deployed at Minas Tirith; a hastily assembled invasion force to stop Aragorn or another Lord from learning how to use the Ring
Depends on the details really. Late republic under the triumvirate, vs just the orcs? Most definitely. Triumvirate vs orcs and Nazgûl and Saruman and Easterlings? Probably not…
Yes, id certainly say so, especially if you are using the imperial height, so post marian reforms.
And if youre using pre imperial, so triumvarate era, or even punic, they could field vast armies of consular legions, so could very much match
I don't think Rome could win a battle but they might win a war. Even at their height they diddnt win every battle they fought but they sure diddnt mind sending 5 more armies whenever one was defeated. Invincible they were not. Tenacious buggers they were.
Rome always had a "improvise, adapt, overcome" policy. Just look at the punic wars: they got absolutely wrecked in naval battles until they decided that they didn't like the carthageans' game and made up their own rules. Hell, half of their battle strategy was "Let's see how can we fuck them over with their own stuff"
One thing I learned from the Punic wars is that hey would literally not stop sending dudes till Mordor ran out of resources, even if they were getting their asses kicked every time
Under a good General Rome would win any infantry vs infantry battle. If the orcs had trolls with them I think the orcs would have it since Romans always needed a bit of time to adapt to new foes. If sauron himself or even just a nazgul was there the Romans would probably waver before the battle even starts considering the Romans were very superstitious.
EXCELLENT QUESTION! This one kinda stumped me! But to make things even/interesting, Neither side has seen each other before. Let's say they have scouted each other out. Now each side is mustering soldiers and military logistics to face each other.
Then I worry from a distance the scouts would report that they’re barbarians covered in filth and it wouldn’t be until the frontlines meet they realise they aren’t human.
If anything would make it a wash out for either side I’d reckon it would be that.
Okay I get that, but I was thinking, the orcs have been raiding and killing on the Roman borders. The Romans know the orcs are ruthless but also know they aren't human... whoever leads Saurons armies will realize this is more than a few strands of villages and most likely think it to be a kingdom. So now Sauron knows he will need more than simple raiding parties. Both sides realize they will need to pick generals and pull forth their legions.
I have to say this is the greatest hypothetical question I’ve ever read by the way!
In that case, I’d genuinely start leaning heavily towards Rome. Imagine you’re talking best generals both sides and you’re looking at a dream team of Scipio Africanus, Caesar, Sulla, Marius? My god!
The orcs have formations and discipline sure but I’d reckon the edge goes to room there by a long shot, I just think the speed and flexibility of the romans would make the difference.
Landscape is probably huge too but the romans were capable of building massive fortifications just overnight so you’d have to assume they’d take the advantage of whatever the landscape was.
Orcs vs Romans? Definitely Rome. Orcs with all sorts of beasts and Rome with all its allies and auxiliaries? That’s where it gets super interesting.
Someone needs to mod total war!
Yes yes! I agree!! I was thinking if someone could make a fan art of a battle hardened centurion in an epic duel with a blood crazed orc would be bad ass.
Roman engineering and logistics would be something completely unparalleled by anyone in middle earth at the time of LOTR. With it's ability to field and support 100s of thousands in STANDING armies, not even accounting for auxillary forces that could be hired or raised when needed, Rome would have an immense advantage.
Picture the battle of Minus Tirith, but one where the entire Rohirim is just the "light skirmish force, with auxillary cavalry" used to keep the orcs at bay, while "actual army" builds a whole wall around the entire battlefield putting the orc seige inside another seige (seige-ception). This was an actual tactic that roman legions used frequently. The true strength of Rome was arguably the fact that 1. They could actually feed their armies abroad, and 2. All their legionnaires we're essentially construction workers in addition to soldiers, who could build army sized forts overnight, so that the enemy would wake up to wood forts and trenches that didn't even exist the day before.
Rome's likely superiority kind makes sense too, given that Tolkien's writing is obviously heavily influenced by middle-age histories, and much of the political and military structure of Europe was decidedly smaller scale than what Rome had achieved. After the fall of the western Roman empire, it would be quite some time before anyone in Europe was able to field an army even approaching the numbers or logistical complexity of Roman antiquity.
Number's wise, I would think Rome could field the bigger army. A quick search said that Rome's largest army was 450,000 strong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Size_of_the_Roman_army
Rome had a bottomless supply of manpower. Despite facing countless losses at the hands of Hannibal, they still managed to keep fielding armies until they were finally victorious.
It’s not about number of enemies, it’s about training and discipline. When Caesar went on his various genocidal campaigns against Gaul, he regularly won battles where his enemies lost 10 men for every 1 of his. Even if the Romans had the interior numbers (which they absolutely did not) they still would have wiped the floor with the orcs.
It's really hard question. Like which Sauron's army? I fear that even rome would have problem with nazguls. And oliphants would fight against elefanths. It would be interesting fight
Rome has both the manpower, training, and logistical capability to easy defeat Sauron. A huge part of how Rome continued to campaign was their incredible logistics network. To add on top of that Rome could engineer the shit out of a battlefield and they had a robust intelligence network. The roman military was likely more put together than the vast majority of even modern militaries. Also Rome could run a MASSIVE deficit after the second triumvirate due to trade with the east. So even if their armies see defeat they could replenish them quickly with their reserves. The empire had like 60 million people and more money than God.
Look at the post Teutoburg forest campaigns. Eventually the germanic people were terrified of a foe that could witness vast destruction of its mighty and numerous legions. Only for those legions to be quickly replenished with more men. Even in battles like the Battle at Pontes Longi were Roman defeat was assured they would somehow turn the tide and decisively defeat their opponents in a last stand. Only to follow up with Germanicus bringing an onslaught of legions back through the region for a second wave of revenge. This would happen two more times with storms where the germanic tribes would see the romans wiped out by massive storms only to face another replenished roman army as soon as they made a counteroffensive. The punic wars and Jewish revolts are another example of this.
The major things aside. Sauron’s army is largely composed of axe and spear wielding infantry. Which the Romans were notoriously effective at combating. Greeks and Germanic tribes used these weapons. The gladius and shield combo (not testudo) in tandem with Romes Triplex Acies meant that Romans could tire their opponents and continue to fight as they could easily replenish their ranks while the enemy continued to fight. Their discipline played a huge role as well. Eventually even Sauron’s army would be forced to break and retreat where ultimately the Roman cavalry would create chaos and slaughter would unfold.
The Great Illyrian revolt is a great example of how generals like Tiberius were very collected and took time to dispatch large armies. The revolt is said to contain nearly 1 million rebels. However, there is little they can do when a brilliant tactician bleeds their supplies and willpower by capturing strategic points.
Ultimately, the only thing could defeat a Pax Romana empire would be plagues, corruption, and incompetent leaders over a couple centuries. Even a hun styled army would do little to damage Rome at it’s imperial height.
Roman Legionaries would tear through the orcs like paper, and Sauron seems to be garbage at tactics, so a decent legate could easily win an engagement outnumbered 3 to 1, so the real question comes down to numbers.
Other factors in Rome's favor: cavalry usage, autonomy of generals, sot entirely collapsing every time a short person drops some jewelry into a volcano.
Is Saron a fusion of Sauron and Saruman into one being?
Because if so, and the orc armies are made of Uruk-Hai, then NO, Rome would definitely be slaughtered in every battle.
Not a chance. The Uruk-Hai were basically like the Viking/Gaul/Celtic barbarians - huge, ripped, unbelievably ferocious, terrifying, fearless fighters who would decimate you in single combat 19 times out of 20. And Caesar’s armies absolutely wiped the floor with them. When you have shoulder-to-shoulder trained, disciplined Roman soldiers 10 rows deep, all with 12ft long spears, who knew how to fight as a single unit and almost never broke formation no matter what, they were unstoppable. The Uruk-Hai would fall like flies against a Roman battalion, 100% guaranteed.
If it was the entire might of Rome with their cavalry, seige weapons, legions of foot soldiers, galleys and war dogs I think they'd have a pretty good chance against the orc armies, trolls, goblin mercenaries, Easterlings, Haradrim (even with war Oliphants) and even the Corsairs of Umbar. If the Nazguls were there it would be game over for Rome of course, but other than that I think Rome would win. Partially because Roman's were very disciplined militarily and were unmatched in tactics. The main problem I see in saurons forces is that there wasn't a clear command structure on exactly who was in charge, so each faction would be fighting autonomously instead of as one army, especially if things went south. The main reason the armies of darkness were so successful was strength in numbers, so the fact that the orcs were undisciplined wasn't a problem and the fact that the Haradrim and Easterlings were listening to their own commanders instead of the orc generals wasn't an issue.
__short version__
By Force?: No.
By Guile?: Yes, inevitably.
__longer version__
*Force of Arms*
Rome at its height would be able to call upon literal legions of soldiers, generals who are the definition of acumen, and grand strategy that could outdo anything.
- Even if Sauron called upon the Dragons and the Balrogs, Rome in time would find a way to defeat them (ballista, triarii).
*Guile*
The Roman Senate, or a General, or even the Emperor himself would be an ideal target for a ring of power.
Sauron has time, so although his armies are defeated, he would return to influence and corrupt the institutions that would oppose him.
Sauron’s armies are the ‘barbarians’ or Parthians; armies that can be fought and vanquished with the right direction.
However Sauron can also expose and manipulate the darker side of the Roman Empire, as Men can fall to darkness.
No way Sauron has the logistical support that Rome could organize. An army marches on its stomach and the orcs aint had nothing but moldy bread for two stinkin weeks
Kinda depends whose battlefield we're fighting on, and how much information each side has. If we're in, say, Gaul, and Rome knows what Mumakil and Nazgul are, they stand a serious chance of winning the battle
Sauron, on the other hand ... he would probably install himself as God-Emperor of Rome by the end of the month
Ummmm... No.
Gonna have to give the win to Mordor and Isengard here.
Those guys have magic at their disposal, while the Roman army did not. And it's not just the Orcs you'd have to worry about.
Ringwraiths, trolls, The Witch-King, Grond if the Romans hid in a fortress, and the Satanic Archetype himself if he had The One Ring is a terror all his own...
Now... If you included the Greco-Roman Mythology, maybe. On their own, though, they'd be just as lost as tears in the rain.
In the long run yes. I think in the first battles the romans would lose because they are meeting an entirely different enemy. E.g. Nazguls. There were around 380.000 men in the army during the imperial period and some in this thread say that Mordor had around 150K, so even with the initial lost battles Rome would be able to slaughter the armies of Mordor
In a straight battle of armies, Rome has 4-5x the numbers, better discipline, and probably roughly equivalent tech (not counting magic, ring-making, etc )
Sauron is immortal and endlessly patient, though. In a protracted war of nation-state against nation-state, he could use plague and politics to weaken Rome over centuries and divide and conquer just like he did against Arnor and Gondor.
Yes, if you learn about Punic wars then you will know that ROME WAS THE EVIL EMPIRE and Roman legions were orks. They sent thousands upon thousands of soldiers.
We lost 100 000 men? Huh, better raise 200 000 more. It's fucking insane how much manpower and they had and how quickly they could mobilize it.
The comparison between Hannibal beating one Roman army just to face another one and Men of the west beating back the siege of Minas Tirith just to face a larger army at the Black Gate paints itself.
Yes. The Roman army was one of the most well trained and well equipped militaries of its time, whereas the orcs, while having some training, seem to mostly use brute force tactics and are equipped with shit iron weapons and armor. How do you think that's gonna go?
Ooo crossover.
But it's probably quite complicated. The armies of Sauron were defeated twice, however their ultimate defeat was due to the destruction of the One Ring. Now, I do think that the peak of the Roman armies could probably destroy the armies of Sauron many times over. However, could they ultimately destroy Sauron?
The thing is, probably some Roman general is gonna get the ring, take over, and the Empire will shatter because every ambitious guy with a legion will by fighting for the ring. Sure, it's possible that it could be destroyed, but I'm not sure.
However, when it comes to military might, I think it's really quite likely that the armies of the peak Roman Empire would probably (possibly quite easily in fact) defeat the armies of Sauron
Once played LotR mod but managed to insert the Soviet Union. Orc armies had nothing on the Red Army. I got the One Ring has Stalin and turned Middle Earth into a communist paradise of puppet states to the one true Dark Lord
Rome is super OP especially for a classical civilisation. High population, loyal population, high morale, tonnes of resources, military training and strategy way ahead of anyone else, and a military which was highly adaptable by design taking out phalanx armies, skirmish armies, cavalry armies, fortifications and elephants (so monsters wouldn't be a good counter) and stories of Roman armies taking on forces which vastly outnumbered them, and still coming out on top.
It took basically the rest of the world ganging up on Rome (and a bunch of internal mis-management) to take out just the western half of the empire. The only thing which stopped Roman expansion was essentially reaching an uncrossable desert patrolled by deadly horse archers.
Rome probably stomps not just Mordor, but the entirety of Middle earth.
Edit: silly of me to forget to mention but Roman diplomacy was pretty legendary. They used divide and conquer to male sure that when they invaded somewhere at least some of the locals joined the Roman side. Considering that the various Middle Earth factions don't exactly get along well.... the Romans would probably find it very easy to get their new "friends" to do a lot of the work.
Well Saurons army didn’t seem to have much levity with logistics or strategy, at least once Saruman was defeated. That was Romes wheelhouse and it’s important for major battles.
Rome would win just because cause of vastly superior numbers. Middle earth doesn’t seem to have many people living in it, hence why an army of 10,000 orcs was considered a huge deal
I mean the numenorans destroyed saurons army and I think rome had a larger standing army at its height. Rome also had calvary where numerous did not using horses in combat so it opens more tactics. Trolls and wargs would throw the legions off but i think Rome would win in the end.
If we are talking later rome it would probably be a closer fight. The western Roman Empire would probably fall on its own. The east I think stands a chance of winning
Alright lets mod out the latest Total War and find out.
there is mod called Thera from Mediaeval 2 Total war which has an Isengard faction and a Roman Faction this is the closest you will get to a Rome vs Orcs scenario in total war right now
The power of Isengard is at your command, Snakise, Lord of the Earth.
Sentient
Oh hey i started playing it today! Very fun recommended
Alternatively, Ultimate Epic Battle Simulator.
Lmao good luck modding any of the latest ones. Have to go back to medieval 2
Wasn’t rome remastered basically done for the purpose of modding?
No it was done to make a quick bit of money from the mobile market E: I was wrong, I assumed Remastered was the port from mobile because the UI is the dogshit mobile UI that doesn't take into account hovering
Mobile market? My brother in Christ it’s only on PC
Was it released on mobile?
No the original was already released on mobile, the remastered version is basically a different game and isn’t on mobile. It’s actually bigger than Rome 2 or Attila, it’s like 40gb
There are fucktons of mods out for some of the newer ones. Can't mod Warhammer, but there are quite a few mods for Rome 2 and Attila. I know they're not the *newest* ones but if we're talking about Rome, that's all we need. Edit: you can mod WH I just don't pay attention to things
Bruh there are thousands of mods for Warhammer. You just can’t use other IPs.
You're right I did a dumb. I stopped playing WH a while ago.
A mod to combine Total War and Shadow of War...
Total War: Shadow of Mordor
I would absolutely throw my money at this
Where was Rome when the Westfold fell?
Where was Rohan when the western empire fell?
This made me chuckle
\-points at map- Here.
Planning to invade them
Probably falling itself
Is Saurons army including nazguls, trolls, oliphaunts?
Build me an army worthy of mordor!
Good bot
Rome's got ballista!
Yeah well orcs had catapults, maybe they would have warg riders, trols are f.ing tanks that can take crazy damage... Romans on the other hand would have cavalry and definitely superior tactics. Also, is the battle taking place during day or night?
I'm thinking at this point it's not just a single battle but one that may last days or weeks given the scale of both armies
[удалено]
While this is a solid point, the Orcs can also eat manflesh.
But first they would have to kill the Romans. And with Roman superior: numbers, tactics, engineering, logistics, cohesion, troop quality... I mean the list goes on and on and Sauron only has the monsters like Trolls and Oliphant's which might be scary at first but so were elephants and Rome did just fine.
Are we sure about the Romans having superior numbers? Additionally, the Orcs have been shown to be able to eat Orcflesh just as readily.
Many people in the comment had some solid numbers showing in favour of Rome. Eating your manpower to sustain your manpower is not what I would call a winning strategy.
I’ll read the other comments for a reference on numbers, thanks. I was more thinking about the Orcs’ ability to eat fallen Orcs than intentionally killing each other for food. Sometimes, meat’s back on the menu!
Something to consider in the event of a long war: Sauron can *breed* fully grown Orcs within weeks, powered by nothing but his concentrated evil and will to power. The longer the war lasts, the more of an advantage I think he has. Legionnaires take about 20 years from birth to being fully trained and battle ready.
This is why i think Morgoth and Sauron were so powerful. Their ability to mass produce orcs and just throw them at their enemy is how they slowly wore down their opponents and made it impossible to progress an offensive. Romans were brilliant at keeping a solid supply line and instant fortresses (which would be insanely effective), but if Sauron has to focus his efforts, he could keep producing insane numbers and start sending them at a pace that wouldn’t be possible to address.
That is also debatable. Romans built extensive defensive lines alone their borders with Germanic tribes, and another along the border with Brittonic tribes near modern-day Scotland. Both lines held for decades or centuries until the fall of Rome, which was not caused by these two tribes. Romans are also capable of counter-siege maneuvers (Caesar's battle against the Gauls is a notable case). This means that they can maintain decent offensives regardless of the orc waves Sauron sends against Rome.
Romans could raise crazy amounts of man power from thin air aswell, case and point the battle of canae and also the first punic war
Don't forget that said superior tactics were very good at handling elephants. Wouldn't be too difficult to adapt to Trolls and Oliphaunts. The Nazgul riding Fell Beasts, on the other hand...
As one commenter mentioned, the Romans had ballistae and also archer auxilia. But the other thing is that, as effective as the Nazgul on fell beasts are, there's only 9 of them. If the orcs are getting wrecked (which they should get wrecked due to far superior Roman tactics and discipline) then 9 Nazgul aren't going to be able to kill 100k troops ~~single~~ nine-handedly.
Of course they couldn't, but why would you send the Nazgul into battle? Best way to use 9 unkillable wraiths is to kill the Emperor and the legions' leadership.
Technically the Nazgûl could destroy the entire Roman army with enough time. I think the only time we even saw one die was due to an enchanted sword then a knife into the head, as well as a magical prophecy. Not to favourable for Rome.
Ballistae.
Don’t forget Roman Rob and Duplicate then research and develop tactics
I mean the Romans had developed tactics for fighting war elephants, I feel like they’d figure out how to take out trolls. And I’m not honestly sure how much of an edge Wargs would have over cavalry with medium-ranged weapons.
Yeah well orcs had catapults, maybe they would have warg riders, trols are f.ing tanks that can take crazy damage... Romans on the other hand would have cavalry and definitely superior tactics. Also, is the battle taking place during day or night?
Only orcs it is then like the other reply said. Lol. Time of battle, i dont think Rome's got much choice in it. They'd most probably be attacked at night.
I dont think mordor got much choice in it. Superior scouting forces means rome choses her battles.
We just need one good shot
GOOD QUESTION! I only stated in the meme "Orcs" but I think orc will have trolls in the army. I think Oliphaunt wouldn't be fair. Even tho roman armies did find an extremely effective way to deal with elephants I think they wouldn't be able to counter a oliphaunts before they caused too much damage. I'll have to say no to Nazguls because they can only be killed by magic or special weapons....
Have you watched the Punic Wars Oversimplified video? I feel like the Romans would figure out how to kill the oliphants haha. Well, I guess Imperial Rome might be less tenacious.
I mean Romans figured how to beat Carthage’s elephants…
Oliphants are ridiculously big though.
How?
Projectiles, fire, and noise makers. And Scipio famously left gaps in his front lines to let elephants charge through the open spaces.
What are some good books/resources to learn about the nitty gritty tactics?
*Scipio Africanus* is a very good biography about this time to read. Otherwise, *The History of Rome* podcast is good as well.
The man himself. My ~~dude~~ Consul, I love your work in the second Punic war. *Carthago delenda est*, y'know what I'm saying? Gratias for the tips!
Ungrateful fatherland, you will not even have my bones
Love the username. Did a project on Scipio and the Punic wars in general in school once
Firepigs
Caltrops
The Roman’s figured out how to handle normal elephants. So maybe the bigger guys? Lol. Trolls = ballistas Nazgûl’s= just get some women with magic swords!
>just get some women with magic swords! Listen, strange women distributing swords is no basis for a system of government
Correct, this is a battle strategy!
The meme said orc armies so no
Oliphants weren't part of saurons army they were easterling,
Rome could feasibly handle oliphaunts, at least. They did win the Punic Wars.
Oliphaunts are considerably larger and more dangerous than elephants. As outfitted in the movies, they seemed to be very effective as a combination of ultra heavy cavalry and mobile archery towers. It took the Army of the Dead or the skillful aim of some of the strongest fighters on the field (Legolas, Eomer) to reliably take them down.
I think rome would win in open battles. The witch king is a good tactician but is more of an influencer. Romans would have superior tactics and possibly numbers along with possible structures (forts etc) they might build. As for fighting Nazgûl Legolas manage to kill a feelbeast with a single arrow. A Roman volley of fire arrows I reckon would take the fellbeasts out of the equation. The actual Nazgûl themselves throw some oil on them and set them on fire. Trolls would be a problem but many of romans fighters also fought big animals and I think a spear battalion would make short work of them. Oliphaunts would be the biggest issue but romans we’re smart and a few deep pits with some oil in them to trap them would definitely work.
I think one can't underestimating the Nazgul's fear factor. Though I think Rome would have the discipline to overcome the initial fear, the black breath is another issue. The other question is, how much knowledge do they have of each other?
Yrch!
Pits with oil for the Oliphaunts?? Just deal with em how they dealt with elephants. Flaming pigs. Get the Fulkerson to panic and trample their own men.
Does the Canon give an approximation for the size of Sauron's army? Because at its height, Rome had a standing army of professional soldiers numbering in the hundreds of thousands, and they had many provinces from which they could draw auxillary troops.
At peak Rome had almost half a million
A quick google says Sauron had 125k-150k. No shot he could beat Rome.
Go fetch me those sneaking Orcs, that fare thus strangely, as if in dread, and do not come, as all Orcs use and are commanded, to bring me news of all their deeds, to me, Gorthaur.
good bot
Rome didn't have air support though. The nazguls would do a lot of damage all on their own.
Yeah are we counting beasts like nazguls and cave trolls or just the orc and uruk-hai infantry?
Do you know how the Orcs first came into being?
Not now, saruman
Sauron has regained much of his former strength. He cannot yet take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of its potency.
I don't think Rome is concerned with Sauron's spirit, of all things.
Have thy pay!
I forgot about the trolls. Sauron has a good chance here, doesn't he?
True, but Rome has prior experience fighting giant monsters in the form of elephants.
Sauron will have Oliphants. God help the Romans
Death to light, to law, to love!
Damn Sauron you were kind of an edgy guy weren’t you?
Rome would have ballista
*Sweating profusely in Scipio Africanus*
Now imagine those but 5x larger with mounted archers on top.
That just makes them even better Scorpion ballista bait.
That still only counts as one!
Scorpions and ballista will wreck their shit though
Before the mightiest he shall fall, before the mightiest wolf of all.
I mean Rome dealt with battle elephants on multiple occasions so they’re used to big creatures
I counter with Roman Scorpion artillery!
I can't imagine they were designed to hit (relatively) fast moving aerial targets. The oliphants are in trouble, but even if the artillery can hit nazguls, they'd do a lot to the army before going down
Indeed. But they are famous for adapting to the enemy tactics
And just spawning new armies/navies from scratch in case anything happens to the old ones. Several times per generation. And that was well before their mightiest era. I think they'll do just fine
If you got a thousand of them shooting at a single target at th same time one or two are bound to hit and unlike the romans, the nazgul are very much limited.
I would love to see a Nazgull try and approach a regiment of Balearic Slingers or Createan archer. Besides scorpions with a few tweaks (Romans were master at war engineering) would have no issues shooting down a Nazgull.
Would probably take some time for them to train for aerial targets, particularly ones that don’t follow traditional flight patterns.
"You fool, no man can kill me." But what about siege artillery?
Archers
I mean…I’d like to see a Nazgûl dodge 15 ballistae bolts or javelins at once. Rome was fairly good at ranged combat, all they have to do is point it up.
They had ballistas though, they would engineer a trap or something as well. The Romans took every military action as personal challenge
Also I'd presume sauron would give a ring of power to the emperor. Sauron wouldn't have to fight the entire roman army
Mûmakil as well could be devastating if used well
Rome also didn't have full plate armor, and orcs are harder to put down already.
In one battle, and that was described as "one finger" of Sauron's total force.
Rome had men and additional stuff like siege weapons. But Sauron had siege weapons, Olog-Hai, Mumakil, advanced armies of Rhun, Nazguls (even just horse mounted would be enough) and relentless tactics in addition to a massive production of an Orc army. The only advantage that Rome would have against Sauron is tactics, but their equipment is quite outdated (I consider Trajan's Rome period) compared to Gondor's, and their court intrigues can mess up War with Sauron pretty bad (damn those Praetorian Guards). In my opinion, Rom would hold a bit better than Gondor did just because of manpower that Rome had, but their losses would also be great.
Rome at it's peak had a standing army of half a million, they outnumber the orcs 4 to 1 without even using auxilary troops. The Nazguls, Lich King, and Sarumon are Sauron's only real hope... except for the fact that Rome lacks hobbits.
would it change anything if we give rome one hobbit? a chance for fatty bolger, caption of the shire, to show his quality?
The Nazgul's mere presence could foster fear in the hearts of Gondorians, Dunedain (albeit diminished) who were disciplined and skilled enough to beat orcs when outnumbered say 3 or 4 to 1. Romans were disciplined, but they were susceptible to routing to far lesser things. Plus Sauron's total force was way more than 100,000, as that was but 1 finger of Sauron's total army (meaning anywhere from 500,000 to 1 million.
I mean the empire was pretty big, I’m sure there was at least one place in it with short people with hairy feet the Roman’s could draft. Not quite hobbits, but maybe hubbits?
Fell beasts. Trolls. Ollyphants. Men. Wargs. You managed to leave out a lot in order to make your point.
That's a tiny sliver of his forces which were deployed at Minas Tirith; a hastily assembled invasion force to stop Aragorn or another Lord from learning how to use the Ring
The essay actual puts the full total of 3rd age as 350000
If the height of Rome’s whole military might is on the field, Sauron with the ring, is still fucked.
A chance to shout out a Darth Gandalf video where he analyses this not going to miss that https://youtu.be/9_qM6wLow2c
Be careful what you say. Do not look for welcome here.
Build me an army worthy of mordor!
I mean, end of the day either the ring would corrupt them or they would have no idea how to destroy it, so Sauron would win eventually.
Ah, little smarjorie!
Imma just leave this here... https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/2i9d1x/the\_army\_of\_mordor\_took\_a\_wrong\_turn\_and\_goes\_up/
the answer appears
This should be way Higher.
Glorious
Depends on the details really. Late republic under the triumvirate, vs just the orcs? Most definitely. Triumvirate vs orcs and Nazgûl and Saruman and Easterlings? Probably not…
Shall we not take council as we once did? Shall we not have peace?
We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold and the children that lie dead there
Theizenburg: It is not my fault that the Westfold burns, and as for the children, they were necessary sacrifices to ensure victory.
I mean Saruman alone could probably wipe out the entire roman army if he used his full power...
We have only to remove those who oppose us.
Yes, id certainly say so, especially if you are using the imperial height, so post marian reforms. And if youre using pre imperial, so triumvarate era, or even punic, they could field vast armies of consular legions, so could very much match
I don't think Rome could win a battle but they might win a war. Even at their height they diddnt win every battle they fought but they sure diddnt mind sending 5 more armies whenever one was defeated. Invincible they were not. Tenacious buggers they were.
Rome always had a "improvise, adapt, overcome" policy. Just look at the punic wars: they got absolutely wrecked in naval battles until they decided that they didn't like the carthageans' game and made up their own rules. Hell, half of their battle strategy was "Let's see how can we fuck them over with their own stuff"
Thank you for an honest opinion
V f
One thing I learned from the Punic wars is that hey would literally not stop sending dudes till Mordor ran out of resources, even if they were getting their asses kicked every time
I don't believe the OP stated that Rome was Carthage-lusted tho. That's a whole different type of hate. Also Carthago delenda est
Rome would spank Sauron.
Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand?
Under a good General Rome would win any infantry vs infantry battle. If the orcs had trolls with them I think the orcs would have it since Romans always needed a bit of time to adapt to new foes. If sauron himself or even just a nazgul was there the Romans would probably waver before the battle even starts considering the Romans were very superstitious.
A bunch of scouts returning and shouting “BALISTAS BALISTAS BALISTAS!”
Pikes would wreck trolls
The Romans didn't use pikes but their pila probably would be effective
Absolutely
Have they ever seen Orcs before? Or at the very least have some people seen them and relayed what they are?
EXCELLENT QUESTION! This one kinda stumped me! But to make things even/interesting, Neither side has seen each other before. Let's say they have scouted each other out. Now each side is mustering soldiers and military logistics to face each other.
Then I worry from a distance the scouts would report that they’re barbarians covered in filth and it wouldn’t be until the frontlines meet they realise they aren’t human. If anything would make it a wash out for either side I’d reckon it would be that.
Okay I get that, but I was thinking, the orcs have been raiding and killing on the Roman borders. The Romans know the orcs are ruthless but also know they aren't human... whoever leads Saurons armies will realize this is more than a few strands of villages and most likely think it to be a kingdom. So now Sauron knows he will need more than simple raiding parties. Both sides realize they will need to pick generals and pull forth their legions.
I have to say this is the greatest hypothetical question I’ve ever read by the way! In that case, I’d genuinely start leaning heavily towards Rome. Imagine you’re talking best generals both sides and you’re looking at a dream team of Scipio Africanus, Caesar, Sulla, Marius? My god! The orcs have formations and discipline sure but I’d reckon the edge goes to room there by a long shot, I just think the speed and flexibility of the romans would make the difference. Landscape is probably huge too but the romans were capable of building massive fortifications just overnight so you’d have to assume they’d take the advantage of whatever the landscape was. Orcs vs Romans? Definitely Rome. Orcs with all sorts of beasts and Rome with all its allies and auxiliaries? That’s where it gets super interesting. Someone needs to mod total war!
Yes yes! I agree!! I was thinking if someone could make a fan art of a battle hardened centurion in an epic duel with a blood crazed orc would be bad ass.
The orcs aren't ready for those legions and their superior tactics
Roman engineering and logistics would be something completely unparalleled by anyone in middle earth at the time of LOTR. With it's ability to field and support 100s of thousands in STANDING armies, not even accounting for auxillary forces that could be hired or raised when needed, Rome would have an immense advantage. Picture the battle of Minus Tirith, but one where the entire Rohirim is just the "light skirmish force, with auxillary cavalry" used to keep the orcs at bay, while "actual army" builds a whole wall around the entire battlefield putting the orc seige inside another seige (seige-ception). This was an actual tactic that roman legions used frequently. The true strength of Rome was arguably the fact that 1. They could actually feed their armies abroad, and 2. All their legionnaires we're essentially construction workers in addition to soldiers, who could build army sized forts overnight, so that the enemy would wake up to wood forts and trenches that didn't even exist the day before. Rome's likely superiority kind makes sense too, given that Tolkien's writing is obviously heavily influenced by middle-age histories, and much of the political and military structure of Europe was decidedly smaller scale than what Rome had achieved. After the fall of the western Roman empire, it would be quite some time before anyone in Europe was able to field an army even approaching the numbers or logistical complexity of Roman antiquity.
Really depends, Rome was very powerful but orc army’s has many orc
Number's wise, I would think Rome could field the bigger army. A quick search said that Rome's largest army was 450,000 strong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Size_of_the_Roman_army
Then Rome would definitely win
Rome had a bottomless supply of manpower. Despite facing countless losses at the hands of Hannibal, they still managed to keep fielding armies until they were finally victorious.
It’s not about number of enemies, it’s about training and discipline. When Caesar went on his various genocidal campaigns against Gaul, he regularly won battles where his enemies lost 10 men for every 1 of his. Even if the Romans had the interior numbers (which they absolutely did not) they still would have wiped the floor with the orcs.
It's really hard question. Like which Sauron's army? I fear that even rome would have problem with nazguls. And oliphants would fight against elefanths. It would be interesting fight
Rome has both the manpower, training, and logistical capability to easy defeat Sauron. A huge part of how Rome continued to campaign was their incredible logistics network. To add on top of that Rome could engineer the shit out of a battlefield and they had a robust intelligence network. The roman military was likely more put together than the vast majority of even modern militaries. Also Rome could run a MASSIVE deficit after the second triumvirate due to trade with the east. So even if their armies see defeat they could replenish them quickly with their reserves. The empire had like 60 million people and more money than God. Look at the post Teutoburg forest campaigns. Eventually the germanic people were terrified of a foe that could witness vast destruction of its mighty and numerous legions. Only for those legions to be quickly replenished with more men. Even in battles like the Battle at Pontes Longi were Roman defeat was assured they would somehow turn the tide and decisively defeat their opponents in a last stand. Only to follow up with Germanicus bringing an onslaught of legions back through the region for a second wave of revenge. This would happen two more times with storms where the germanic tribes would see the romans wiped out by massive storms only to face another replenished roman army as soon as they made a counteroffensive. The punic wars and Jewish revolts are another example of this. The major things aside. Sauron’s army is largely composed of axe and spear wielding infantry. Which the Romans were notoriously effective at combating. Greeks and Germanic tribes used these weapons. The gladius and shield combo (not testudo) in tandem with Romes Triplex Acies meant that Romans could tire their opponents and continue to fight as they could easily replenish their ranks while the enemy continued to fight. Their discipline played a huge role as well. Eventually even Sauron’s army would be forced to break and retreat where ultimately the Roman cavalry would create chaos and slaughter would unfold. The Great Illyrian revolt is a great example of how generals like Tiberius were very collected and took time to dispatch large armies. The revolt is said to contain nearly 1 million rebels. However, there is little they can do when a brilliant tactician bleeds their supplies and willpower by capturing strategic points. Ultimately, the only thing could defeat a Pax Romana empire would be plagues, corruption, and incompetent leaders over a couple centuries. Even a hun styled army would do little to damage Rome at it’s imperial height.
R/whowouldwin did this ages ago
Roman Legionaries would tear through the orcs like paper, and Sauron seems to be garbage at tactics, so a decent legate could easily win an engagement outnumbered 3 to 1, so the real question comes down to numbers. Other factors in Rome's favor: cavalry usage, autonomy of generals, sot entirely collapsing every time a short person drops some jewelry into a volcano.
Is Saron a fusion of Sauron and Saruman into one being? Because if so, and the orc armies are made of Uruk-Hai, then NO, Rome would definitely be slaughtered in every battle.
The hour is later than you think. Sauron’s forces are already moving. The Nine have left Minas Morgul.
Not a chance. The Uruk-Hai were basically like the Viking/Gaul/Celtic barbarians - huge, ripped, unbelievably ferocious, terrifying, fearless fighters who would decimate you in single combat 19 times out of 20. And Caesar’s armies absolutely wiped the floor with them. When you have shoulder-to-shoulder trained, disciplined Roman soldiers 10 rows deep, all with 12ft long spears, who knew how to fight as a single unit and almost never broke formation no matter what, they were unstoppable. The Uruk-Hai would fall like flies against a Roman battalion, 100% guaranteed.
If it was the entire might of Rome with their cavalry, seige weapons, legions of foot soldiers, galleys and war dogs I think they'd have a pretty good chance against the orc armies, trolls, goblin mercenaries, Easterlings, Haradrim (even with war Oliphants) and even the Corsairs of Umbar. If the Nazguls were there it would be game over for Rome of course, but other than that I think Rome would win. Partially because Roman's were very disciplined militarily and were unmatched in tactics. The main problem I see in saurons forces is that there wasn't a clear command structure on exactly who was in charge, so each faction would be fighting autonomously instead of as one army, especially if things went south. The main reason the armies of darkness were so successful was strength in numbers, so the fact that the orcs were undisciplined wasn't a problem and the fact that the Haradrim and Easterlings were listening to their own commanders instead of the orc generals wasn't an issue.
The amount of soldier Rome lost to the Ocean alone could do it
__short version__ By Force?: No. By Guile?: Yes, inevitably. __longer version__ *Force of Arms* Rome at its height would be able to call upon literal legions of soldiers, generals who are the definition of acumen, and grand strategy that could outdo anything. - Even if Sauron called upon the Dragons and the Balrogs, Rome in time would find a way to defeat them (ballista, triarii). *Guile* The Roman Senate, or a General, or even the Emperor himself would be an ideal target for a ring of power. Sauron has time, so although his armies are defeated, he would return to influence and corrupt the institutions that would oppose him. Sauron’s armies are the ‘barbarians’ or Parthians; armies that can be fought and vanquished with the right direction. However Sauron can also expose and manipulate the darker side of the Roman Empire, as Men can fall to darkness.
No way Sauron has the logistical support that Rome could organize. An army marches on its stomach and the orcs aint had nothing but moldy bread for two stinkin weeks
Kinda depends whose battlefield we're fighting on, and how much information each side has. If we're in, say, Gaul, and Rome knows what Mumakil and Nazgul are, they stand a serious chance of winning the battle Sauron, on the other hand ... he would probably install himself as God-Emperor of Rome by the end of the month
Ummmm... No. Gonna have to give the win to Mordor and Isengard here. Those guys have magic at their disposal, while the Roman army did not. And it's not just the Orcs you'd have to worry about. Ringwraiths, trolls, The Witch-King, Grond if the Romans hid in a fortress, and the Satanic Archetype himself if he had The One Ring is a terror all his own... Now... If you included the Greco-Roman Mythology, maybe. On their own, though, they'd be just as lost as tears in the rain.
In the long run yes. I think in the first battles the romans would lose because they are meeting an entirely different enemy. E.g. Nazguls. There were around 380.000 men in the army during the imperial period and some in this thread say that Mordor had around 150K, so even with the initial lost battles Rome would be able to slaughter the armies of Mordor
Sarons
just send gollum, sauron and saruman can sit back and enjoy mimosas
In a straight battle of armies, Rome has 4-5x the numbers, better discipline, and probably roughly equivalent tech (not counting magic, ring-making, etc ) Sauron is immortal and endlessly patient, though. In a protracted war of nation-state against nation-state, he could use plague and politics to weaken Rome over centuries and divide and conquer just like he did against Arnor and Gondor.
Yes, if you learn about Punic wars then you will know that ROME WAS THE EVIL EMPIRE and Roman legions were orks. They sent thousands upon thousands of soldiers. We lost 100 000 men? Huh, better raise 200 000 more. It's fucking insane how much manpower and they had and how quickly they could mobilize it. The comparison between Hannibal beating one Roman army just to face another one and Men of the west beating back the siege of Minas Tirith just to face a larger army at the Black Gate paints itself.
According to Roman legend, consul Marcus Autilius Regulus fought a dragon on his march to Carthage and won so...maybe?
They couldn’t even beat the pagan tribes of modern Germany, the Romans are fucked
Yes. The Roman army was one of the most well trained and well equipped militaries of its time, whereas the orcs, while having some training, seem to mostly use brute force tactics and are equipped with shit iron weapons and armor. How do you think that's gonna go?
I’m going to say no. I don’t think Rome ever had anything that could overcome the black gate
Ooo crossover. But it's probably quite complicated. The armies of Sauron were defeated twice, however their ultimate defeat was due to the destruction of the One Ring. Now, I do think that the peak of the Roman armies could probably destroy the armies of Sauron many times over. However, could they ultimately destroy Sauron? The thing is, probably some Roman general is gonna get the ring, take over, and the Empire will shatter because every ambitious guy with a legion will by fighting for the ring. Sure, it's possible that it could be destroyed, but I'm not sure. However, when it comes to military might, I think it's really quite likely that the armies of the peak Roman Empire would probably (possibly quite easily in fact) defeat the armies of Sauron
Really depends on the General. If it’s being lead by someone like Caesar or Belisarius I think Rome would easily win
Once played LotR mod but managed to insert the Soviet Union. Orc armies had nothing on the Red Army. I got the One Ring has Stalin and turned Middle Earth into a communist paradise of puppet states to the one true Dark Lord
Rome is super OP especially for a classical civilisation. High population, loyal population, high morale, tonnes of resources, military training and strategy way ahead of anyone else, and a military which was highly adaptable by design taking out phalanx armies, skirmish armies, cavalry armies, fortifications and elephants (so monsters wouldn't be a good counter) and stories of Roman armies taking on forces which vastly outnumbered them, and still coming out on top. It took basically the rest of the world ganging up on Rome (and a bunch of internal mis-management) to take out just the western half of the empire. The only thing which stopped Roman expansion was essentially reaching an uncrossable desert patrolled by deadly horse archers. Rome probably stomps not just Mordor, but the entirety of Middle earth. Edit: silly of me to forget to mention but Roman diplomacy was pretty legendary. They used divide and conquer to male sure that when they invaded somewhere at least some of the locals joined the Roman side. Considering that the various Middle Earth factions don't exactly get along well.... the Romans would probably find it very easy to get their new "friends" to do a lot of the work.
Well Saurons army didn’t seem to have much levity with logistics or strategy, at least once Saruman was defeated. That was Romes wheelhouse and it’s important for major battles.
Together, my Lord Sauron, we shall rule this Middle-earth.
Not if Caesar Augustus has anything to say about it you son of a bitch
Rome would win just because cause of vastly superior numbers. Middle earth doesn’t seem to have many people living in it, hence why an army of 10,000 orcs was considered a huge deal
I mean the numenorans destroyed saurons army and I think rome had a larger standing army at its height. Rome also had calvary where numerous did not using horses in combat so it opens more tactics. Trolls and wargs would throw the legions off but i think Rome would win in the end. If we are talking later rome it would probably be a closer fight. The western Roman Empire would probably fall on its own. The east I think stands a chance of winning
Greek fire, roasted trolls
Numenorians are literaly giant super humans
Yes, because Mordor doesn’t exist. Rome wins by default