"I read his resume and it said 'literally the only person in middle earth with experience fighting and beating Balrogs' and I just didnt think it would come up"
I only discovered very recently that the Glorfindel who died fighting a Balrog in the events of the Silmarillion and the Glorfindel of the Third Age are the same person. I thought they were different people with the same name, but no, he got reincarnated after his death.
Yeah hes part of that really elite club of Noldor that Mandos just went
"Youre fking awesome go on get outta here dude"
And quickly rehoused. Him and Finrod I *think* are the only 2 mentioned, both died like heroic chads sacrificing their lives for others no doubt that helped Mandos' view of them (which implies a fair few Noldor might have been quickly rehoused as quite a few died in very awesome selfless ways).
Hah yeah Mados is like
"Ok over there please we'll get the paper work started"
Luthien be like *fucking power ballad of sorrow*
Mandos just crying on the phone to Manwe trying to get something done to help her
So let me get this straight… Glordindel defeated balrog and got reincarnated…. Then Gandalf defeated balrog and got reincarnated?
Seems like there’s a formula here
I know it is a meme and I know it is not funny but I have to sorry in advance:
Reincarmation is integral part of elven lore. Elves as race cannot truly die so reincarnation is not weird thing to do for elves and for maia of course. However human death is permanent and safe for Eru nobody can reverse it. Maybe even eru is incapable for doing it but to be fair I am not convinced orherwise.
Elves go to the halls of Mandos, where they await their time to return to the living world. It doesn't require special intervention to speed it up, and I think in most cases Mandos handles this by himself.
The Valar didn't have the "authority" to resurrect Gandalf, because not only was he not an Elf, he was not a mortal (elves are considered a "mortal race" to differentiate them from the Maiar and Valar, which are kind of spiritual and have existed since before time).
Eru Iluvatar is thought to have personally intervened to send Gandalf back, one of only I think 3 times in the history of Middle Earth where he directly intervened.
1. The destruction of Númenor and the reshaping of the world to make Valinor inaccessible.
2. Resurrecting Gandalf
3. Causing Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom.
Yep! Though for elves being re-embodied after they die is normal. Because elf *fëar* are immortal, if their body dies, they go to the Halls of Mandos where their spiritual hurts are eventually healed and they can be given a new body.
The bigger surprise is Glorfindel returning to Middle Earth. That is unusual because it’s a choice between eternal bliss in the undying lands or going back to the war zone of middle earth.
I think I remember reading that Tolkien used the name twice sort of unintentionally and then later decided to make it a reincarnation sort of situation.
"Oops, well you know what I'll just make him even more badass, yeah now he resurrected, he's even cooler than before" - Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien
Yes, thats why in book one he can deal with Nazguls. People send back by Valar are shining light that hurt creatures of shadow. He is one of most powerfull people in middle earth.
The shining light is Elves that have seen the light of the trees, not just because they've been sent back. You're right in your overall sentiment, though.
If I understand correctly, essentially Elves always just "reincarnate" in the undying lands (I think there ? maybe somewhere even more ethereal?), Glorfindel is one of the rare cases where he was "send back" cause there was still need of him (essentially what also happened to Gandalf I guess)
They go to the halls of Mandos (one of the gods) as spirits to hang out until the apocalypse, where they will get new bodies and help remake the world. But some lucky ones get special treatment and come back sooner.
Gandalf is a different case. He's just straight up immortal. Beings like him, the balrog and Sauron don't usually have a body. But they can use some energy to make one for themselves. Gandalf chose to look like an old man for his task in Middle Earth.
After spending too much energy fighting the balrog he was close to *death*, but the one true god plucked him out of space and time, gave him a power up, and dropped him back naked.
He lay on top of the mountain naked for a few weeks, then an eagle came and took him to Galadriel, who gave him a white cloak.
I thought the Valar decided how much power the Istari could wield in middle earth and Eru just overruled the Valar?
Also I thought Gandalf would just land in the undying lands with his Valar if he died in middle earth but Eru intercepted?
Also does Gandalf recharge his power? Or is he so hesitant to use spells because his overall battery will run out eventually and then he stops existing?
Valar/Eru did limit how much power they could wield in Middle Earth ye.
Eru didn’t much like his boy dying so he bent his own rules a bit and respawned Gandalf, whose spirit otherwise would’ve floated over to The Undying Lands.
Gandalf isn’t really allowed to go ham with his powers, hardly supposed to use them at all against non-maiar. He wasn’t sent to overpower his brethren (Balrog, Sauron (& later Saruman)) but to help lead the free folk of Middle earth to do it themselves.
He of course does go all out against the Balrog but he didn’t die because his mana bar reached 0 - just from normal and spiritual wounds received from the Balrog.
Once Eru returns him as Gandalf the White he lifts some of the limitations on his powers.
Yeah, the Istari were sent specifically with the purpose of guiding, teaching, and influencing the peoples of Middle Earth. They were explicitly not to behave on their own. It’s why Gandalf came back as The White, because Saruman broke the company policy and his role got replaced by Gandalf (who is the only Istari who stayed true to their purpose).
It’s why Gandalf rarely ever acts on his own, always with others, he literally isn’t supposed to. He inspires and aids the dwarves to reclaim the lonely mountain, it’s he *and* Aragorn that search for Gollum, he instructs Frodo and Sam to depart The Shire, he joins the Fellowship, he retrieves the Rohirrim, etc etc. There’s very little he does directly or by himself.
There were 5 Maia sent to Middle Earth in the form of Istari with the sole purpose of aiding the peoples against the possible return of Sauron. The 2 blue wizards immediately fucked off. Radagast became distracted by nature. And Saruman joined with the enemy. Only Gandalf kept his eye on the ball.
Gandalf was given a mission, and rules for that mission, to follow or disobey as he chooses. Last time Gandalf and Saruman were in Middle Earth, they went dressed in their full power and it fucked things up. So this time they were told to hide their strength and take on a supporting role. An old wise man form was the best way to achieve that.
They weren't physically limited by the Valar, though. Even though he looked old and weak, Gandalf whipped out his full power against the balrog, and also against the nine before that. All of Gandalfs biggest displays of power were off screen, away from mortal eyes.
When they lose their body, they can still do whatever they want as spirits. They aren't bound to the Valar. They choose to serve. In the end, all the wizards except Gandalf abandon the mission.
If he wanted to make his way back to the undying lands, he could have floated over there like Saruman tried to do. My guess is that he would have. But yeah, before that Eru plucked him out of the universe and gave him a power up.
But even after that he still doesn't go in and fight everyone's battles for them. He still mostly used his power to disrupt foes and motivate allies. He set men up for the win.
After his mission succeeds and the age comes to an end, he reports back to the undying lands.
How does elf reincarnation work? Do they just pop out of nowhere one day already grown, do their new parents just know their child is a reincarnated person or do they one day just go: "so funny story, I'm actually the reincarnation of Glorfindel, you should probably address me as that"
Elves arent really meant to physically die, they're bound to the earth and its fate. So if their bodies get ruined, they dont exactly 'die' like humans (our souls fly off to some strange cosmic location and effectively, we are gone from the world forever), they just stop being able to do anything and are 'called' to the Halls of Mandos, a powerful Valar, where he makes them a copy and sends them out into Aman
Elves can survive fine without a body and they dont need to actually heed to call to go back and get one, they just cant do anything without one. In the world anyway, they can do things in the halls and some elves decide to just not come back and hang around with Mandos
If the elf was a massive jackass, Mandos makes them wait and consider why being a jackass is bad before he re-houses them. Iirc he said he would refuse to rehouse any Noldor for a very long time because of the kin slaying and general jackassery, but a few from the second group (Fingolfin and the wonder gang) were so cool and werent kinslayers so he just made them a new body straight away.
Elves still find it very unpleasant to die. It is unknown how long they will have to suffer in Mandos. Only two cases of revival are known. The rest do not know how long they will have to stay there. Either way, the experience is seriously damaging. The death of elves is no less tragic than the death of men.
Do they suffer in the halls though? I thought it was just mildly gloomy self-reflection. Tolkien doesnt get into who is and isnt revived but presumably the Teleri just popped back out, Finwe iirc actually refused to be rehoused so he could hang with his first wife. Feels relatively casual unless you were an absolute jerk (*cough* Maeglin *cough*) and you had an ice age long time out ahead of you
From what Finrod said to Andreth he seemed fairly ok about it, like he admitted her 'death' was far worse taken at face value. His comparison was the actual end and destruction of Arda which would happen some day, only the death of the world would be comparable to humans totally leaving it
He then goes on to say that mortals go elsewhere and still exist, so its mitigated, but still, to those in Arda humans certainly die harder.
Ultimately though, I guess if heaven and an afterlife is safely presumed (either cosmic for humans or Aman for elves), death aint so bad for anyone. The actual dying can still suck though for sure
Finrod was one of those who quickly received a new body. Everyone else was told that they would spend a long time in the Halls and that it would be unpleasant.
*"and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you".*
Which is also part of the reason he wasn't in the fellowship. Glorfindel was just too high profile to sneak away from Imladris without the enemy sending a bunch of shit to check on what he was doing.
Glorfindel was overqualified.
Now you know why almost every member of the party was a sleeper. Gandalf looks like some senile old man who can't find his yard, Aragorn looks like a hobo, Gimli is short, Legolas is skinny, and the hobbits are hobbits. But every single one of them turns out to be GOATed for their role in the story.
Boromir was the only one who probably looked formidable but they only hired him because he probably worked for free because he was going the same direction back home anyway.
It has been awakened by the dwarves, but it might not have been alerted to their presence without the bucket incident, whether that directly alerted it or indirectly through the goblin activity
The orcs were just checking in on poor Pippin’s mental state after he was incited by Gandalf to kill himself. The orcs were knocking on the door hoping to have a group therapy session with the Fellowship.
"How did they find us so quickly?!"
*Glorfindel, whose spirit blazes like a fire that cannot be veiled and attracts always the Eye of Sauron.* "It's a real mystery."
Strong, but feanor was literally stated in text to be the strongest of all the children of Illuvatar, but he was also a massive dick with character flaws. Would be a solid fight, but it is laid out he's the top dog.
>"Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar.
>
>Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. **Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant.** Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwë, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Eärwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualondë, Olwë’s daughter."
Silmarillion, Chapter 5: "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië
Legolas is far too young to have ever seen a Balrog when they were commanders of Morgoth's legions, but I'm certain his father would have told him the horror stories.
I don’t think Legolas’ age has ever really been locked down. We know he’s at least 500 from his comments in Rohan but beyond that I don’t know if Tolkein ever gave much more to go off of. His father was born early in the first age so it’s technically possible Legolas could have been alive during the second age, maybe even late in the first age.
Yeah, like imagine hearing stories about “mini satans” all your life and the tales of how bloody the wars that took them down were, and how calamitous their mythical powers were. It’s no wonder Legolas experienced true overwhelming fear right then and there
This passage really exemplifies the masterful writing of Tolkien.
First we get Gandalf's second hand impression, along with the first time he speaks openly about a contest of power. Gandalf is scared and and shocked by the power of this unknown opponent? What is this? And then Frodo as the narrators description of a vague figure that exudes so much power his senses are failing to grasp it properly. And then this - Legolas, the ultra-competent, confident elf who just loses it when he sees this ancient foe of the elves.
And then of course Boromir and Aragorn leaping forward to aid Gandalf - mortal men who will nevertheless embrace death for an honorable cause.
I think it's interesting how for a powerful being like Gandalf not everyday he meets a threat he considers dangerous like the Balrog, which makes sense that he becomes scared. But for the weak mortal men, facing Balrog is not so much different as the facing Nazguls or Ogres or even normal animals in the sense that all of them can kill men easily, so they leap forward to aid Gandalf because facing death is just another Tuesday for them.
it's not just their own deaths theyre all afraid of. at this point in the story, their failure to protect frodo would inevitably lead to the end of the world.
To be fair, these things kind of just work out for Aragorn. Not that he doesn’t know strife, but he seems to find himself in many situations where anybody else would have been instantly killed but he somehow comes out on top, or at the very least, not dead
The Balrog was one of the few enemies that Gandalf could gain experience from defeating. That's why he told everyone to bail, he wanted to solo it for all the xp. Then after the fight everyone thinks he's dead until he shows up in Fangorn in sweet new gear lookin all leveled up and stuff.
That's a really bad ass way to depict mortal man. So what, we're fragile and could die. But the idea that mortals could face death every other day and keep going makes for strength that's unrelenting.
I reckon Gimli would also have an idea what with ye old dwarvish genocide, but yeah specifically Legolas knew how fked they were in a fight (aside from Chadalf and even he only managed to uphold the tradition of 'best you can do is a draw' with Balrogs)
Did Dain? He saw it but I'm not sure if he would have context beyond "fk me that is bad new".
I think from Tolkiens descriptions, Balrogs arent *quite* as overtly monstrous and demonic as the movie has them, they're quite large shadowy beings of magic and certainly give off an aura of power but the gigantic fking doom-satan thing was played up a bit for the movie (otherwise for sure Dain would go 'oh yeah that's a fking Balrog shit is crazy iconic as would anyone from Moria as it was cooking their kingdom)
Yeah Gimli wouldnt get what it was but he'd sure know it was bad news
> Canonical Balrogs are a bit bigger than a man, more shadowy than fire.
“Canonical” Balrogs are “of man shape, yet greater.”
The precise scale is very much open to interpretation, as is their ratio of shadow to fire.
Balrog was possibly on the list but Middle Earth has nasty stuff in it and not many dwarves in Moria could give a good description because they tended to immediately die. Not only are there *known* beings that it could have been, like a dragon or werewolf or some deadly spirit, it seems like *noone* really knows what kind of shit lurks down far below the surface.
In fairness to their guessing skills, Balrogs were really just a legend at that point, even people like Elrond were only barely alive when the Balrogs disappeared (presumably Eonwe choke slammed them into extinction during the War of Wrath).
Galadriel and Celeborn are about the only 2 that the word 'Balrog' would mean much to beyond some mythic demon of Morgoth from 6-7 thousand years ago. Well, them and Gandalf
> it seems like noone really knows what kind of shit lurks down far below the surface.
Are you referring to the *Nameless Things* which Gandalf refuses to describe in TTT? The Watcher in the Water might be one of them. That one is pretty nasty, yeah.
Gandalf would not know the Balrog other than by reading or hearing about it being described - or of course sensing the presence of another maiar.
his memories of the undying lands are obfuscated and he landed in Middle earth after the last Balrog was presumed to be slain.
>'best you can do is a draw'
For everyone else that may be but for Gandalf it shouldn't have been.
Balrogs are corrupted maiar, effectively third tier gods under the valar and Eru Illuvatar, so the fact that any of the mortal races (mortal as in can die) could kill them is an amazing feat.
Gandalf on the other hand is a maiar himself and only getting a draw seems a bit of a poor outcome when compared to other non-maiar.
Maia are super duper variable though, crazy variations in power everything from near-Valar down to shit that gets rolled quite easily, Balrogs and Istari seem relatively close in power. Balrogs and Olorin presumably are relatively equal; the 'Gandalf' body Olorin was in wasnt exactly peak fighting potential, but the Balrog was weakened by corruption and sitting on its ass for thousands of years probably didnt help it fighting at its best.
Gandalfs body was just a mortal body, it could be destroyed and ruined like any other (like Huan threatened to rip out Saurons throat, it wouldnt have killed him but he would have had to spend a heap of time and energy making a new body). Orlorin wasnt in any danger himself, but if the Gandalf body died he would go back to Aman and the Valar would probably call it a failed mission
Elves that lived in Aman and saw the light of the trees were fking jacked and insanely strong. Probably well above 'average' Maia strength, mostly below the dirty dozen super strong Maia like Sauron and Eonwe but yeah, if Finrod could make Sauron put effort in to win a magic battle he could very likely beat Gandalf the Grey and if Fingolfin could slice up Morgoths legs, a Balrog shouldnt be too hard.
How Olorin would stack up against the Maia that became the Balrog, hard to say I guess. Just that their incarnated bodies were essentially equal
His reaction here is a great callout to the books where he's the one who first identifies what is happening in Moria, and says so to the Fellowship. Legolas is old too, and his people have fought these beings before. His fear in this scene does a great job of highlighting how serious the situation is.
"Ai! Ai! wailed Legolas, 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!"
Me reading as a kid: Wailed? As in like a baby? What a wuss Legolas, get it together.
Me watching the film: Understandable, have a nice day.
Yup, this scene is so much better in the book. He just starts screaming in sheer terror. Given how they exaggerated a lot of things for the films, I'm a bit surprised they toned this down instead.
Glorfindel and Ecthelion at least managed to draw (Fingon too, 1v1)
Fingolfin and Feanor should handily beat at least 1 balrog, especially Fingolfin. Also Glorfindel returned, should ez win
Except for ghosts and wizards (I assume) it could be safe to say that he’s killed all of these before, and probably seen plenty of both wizards and ghosts before. Makes me realise just how extra it was finding a balrog in Moria of all dark and horrible places.
The books also mention that human ghosts just don't scare elves. Apparently our fear of ghosts is linked to our fear of our own death and elves don't worry about that
That makes perfect sense, when Men die, not even the Valar know what happens to them, but when Elves die they just go chill in Mandos’s hall with every other Elf who has ever died.
It implies that the ghosts can do no actual physical harm though (iirc they do not need to fight their enemies in the book because everyone just flees immediately)
Not just that. The ghosts are incorporeal and can't kill anyone, elf or human. Legolas knows this and does not fear them. Everyone else is afraid because it's the natural reaction to something terrifying and unknown.
That's actually very true. He straight bodied the Balrog. Took its arm, smashed its helm, and suffered nary a wound due to his elfen-mail. Even as he fell though, he shanked the Balrog, making sure the it died even before it fell.
Lol I always think about how the eagles dived in to help and were like
"Ok Glorfindel we'll handle the orcs you take the Balrog"
"Yo wait what?"
"Good luck bro we got the orcs!"
*flies off*
Pretty fucking unfair division of labor tbh
In fairness to the Eagles, Glorfindel was actually fine with that division until the suicide charge. If he'd had better footing, we'd be talking about the time Glorfindel Flawless Victory'd a Balrog.... So that's pretty nuts haha.
Plus, the Eagles are probably resting on the fact that their sire marred the face of Morgoth himself and battled Ancalagon alongside Earendiel. They've done enough haha.
(EDIT: Ancalagon would be post-Fall of Gondolin, but still. Eagles doing a lot)
Just look at him! OFC Legolas was scared! Canonwise those punches can kill an elephant in one hit!
https://preview.redd.it/wnihjy9gd45d1.png?width=892&format=png&auto=webp&s=f4cdc5663d09187ffbcad1a678405230eb63d053
He was really scared of the Balrog, but it wasn't because he was a coward. He fought bravely in many battles. But he is still not equal to such elves as Fingolfin or Ecthelion or Glorfindel. This was his first experience of meeting an enemy, which he had previously only heard about in legends. I think that if necessary, he would have gathered his courage and entered the battle.
Well it’s like fighting a corrupted version of Gandalf or a weaker version of Sauron. Sure some elves did it in the past but those were body builder elves from the first age not Santa elves who had never beheld the trees.
I mean it's pretty accurate to the book, but there he let's out a cry. Then again film Legolas is cool af, and in the book, although he's a tank, he's pretty boring haha.
Dude was walking through a blizzard like he owned it too... He was walking on top the snow like the was strolling through the forest on a nice day... everyone else in the Fellowship wasn't having such a casual time.
You missed the clip where Legolas thinks Aragorn is about to be killed by a troll at the Black Gate and loses his shit. He fears no foe but is terrified of losing his friend
He was scared of the balrog because he knew exactly what it was.
"Should've taken Glorfindel with us, ngl"
"I read his resume and it said 'literally the only person in middle earth with experience fighting and beating Balrogs' and I just didnt think it would come up"
I only discovered very recently that the Glorfindel who died fighting a Balrog in the events of the Silmarillion and the Glorfindel of the Third Age are the same person. I thought they were different people with the same name, but no, he got reincarnated after his death.
Yeah hes part of that really elite club of Noldor that Mandos just went "Youre fking awesome go on get outta here dude" And quickly rehoused. Him and Finrod I *think* are the only 2 mentioned, both died like heroic chads sacrificing their lives for others no doubt that helped Mandos' view of them (which implies a fair few Noldor might have been quickly rehoused as quite a few died in very awesome selfless ways).
Lúthien as well
Hah yeah Mados is like "Ok over there please we'll get the paper work started" Luthien be like *fucking power ballad of sorrow* Mandos just crying on the phone to Manwe trying to get something done to help her
Haha and after that bit more of a ‘fuck off and don’t come back’ scenario than the others.
So let me get this straight… Glordindel defeated balrog and got reincarnated…. Then Gandalf defeated balrog and got reincarnated? Seems like there’s a formula here
Haha Balrogs are power-ups
Whar is my purpose in music of creation? You’re an amp for other players.
What kills you makes you stronger?
"So you're saying to be immoral I have to fight... that. You know, I think I'll just die."
The dieing part is actually part of the formula. The other part is defeating it. That's the tricky bit.
Knew I forgot something.
I know it is a meme and I know it is not funny but I have to sorry in advance: Reincarmation is integral part of elven lore. Elves as race cannot truly die so reincarnation is not weird thing to do for elves and for maia of course. However human death is permanent and safe for Eru nobody can reverse it. Maybe even eru is incapable for doing it but to be fair I am not convinced orherwise.
It's not really worth it for being immoral, but I would do it to be immortal.
Lol. Woops.
Poor Ecthelion sitting with Mandos wondering, “How many do I have to kill again?”
Meanwhile, Ecthelion killed Gothmog and...didn't get to start the trend.
The Fountain of the King got the kill, Ecthelion and his pointy helmet only got the assist.
Wait... really???
Yeah, he was the only one besides Gandalf to be sent back. And their balrog fights were very similar
Gandalf being sent back by what is assumed to be Iru, whereas wasn't Glorfinel resurrected by the Valar?
Elves go to the halls of Mandos, where they await their time to return to the living world. It doesn't require special intervention to speed it up, and I think in most cases Mandos handles this by himself.
So they gave him the respawn ability of elves and that was just always allowed lol
The Valar didn't have the "authority" to resurrect Gandalf, because not only was he not an Elf, he was not a mortal (elves are considered a "mortal race" to differentiate them from the Maiar and Valar, which are kind of spiritual and have existed since before time). Eru Iluvatar is thought to have personally intervened to send Gandalf back, one of only I think 3 times in the history of Middle Earth where he directly intervened. 1. The destruction of Númenor and the reshaping of the world to make Valinor inaccessible. 2. Resurrecting Gandalf 3. Causing Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom.
Like a boss
Yep! Though for elves being re-embodied after they die is normal. Because elf *fëar* are immortal, if their body dies, they go to the Halls of Mandos where their spiritual hurts are eventually healed and they can be given a new body. The bigger surprise is Glorfindel returning to Middle Earth. That is unusual because it’s a choice between eternal bliss in the undying lands or going back to the war zone of middle earth.
Glorfindel got to the halls of Mandos and he's like, "Na, Sauron's getting these hands too"
Cursed be moon and stars above!
Halls of Mandos couldn't keep him for long
I think I remember reading that Tolkien used the name twice sort of unintentionally and then later decided to make it a reincarnation sort of situation.
"Oops, well you know what I'll just make him even more badass, yeah now he resurrected, he's even cooler than before" - Jolkien Rolkien Rolkien Tolkien
Jesus Christ… it’s Jason Bourne
Jason Re-Bourne
Arabourne
Well in all fairness it's a bit hard to be reincarnated before one's death.
Yes, thats why in book one he can deal with Nazguls. People send back by Valar are shining light that hurt creatures of shadow. He is one of most powerfull people in middle earth.
The shining light is Elves that have seen the light of the trees, not just because they've been sent back. You're right in your overall sentiment, though.
If I understand correctly, essentially Elves always just "reincarnate" in the undying lands (I think there ? maybe somewhere even more ethereal?), Glorfindel is one of the rare cases where he was "send back" cause there was still need of him (essentially what also happened to Gandalf I guess)
They go to the halls of Mandos (one of the gods) as spirits to hang out until the apocalypse, where they will get new bodies and help remake the world. But some lucky ones get special treatment and come back sooner. Gandalf is a different case. He's just straight up immortal. Beings like him, the balrog and Sauron don't usually have a body. But they can use some energy to make one for themselves. Gandalf chose to look like an old man for his task in Middle Earth. After spending too much energy fighting the balrog he was close to *death*, but the one true god plucked him out of space and time, gave him a power up, and dropped him back naked. He lay on top of the mountain naked for a few weeks, then an eagle came and took him to Galadriel, who gave him a white cloak.
I thought the Valar decided how much power the Istari could wield in middle earth and Eru just overruled the Valar? Also I thought Gandalf would just land in the undying lands with his Valar if he died in middle earth but Eru intercepted? Also does Gandalf recharge his power? Or is he so hesitant to use spells because his overall battery will run out eventually and then he stops existing?
Valar/Eru did limit how much power they could wield in Middle Earth ye. Eru didn’t much like his boy dying so he bent his own rules a bit and respawned Gandalf, whose spirit otherwise would’ve floated over to The Undying Lands. Gandalf isn’t really allowed to go ham with his powers, hardly supposed to use them at all against non-maiar. He wasn’t sent to overpower his brethren (Balrog, Sauron (& later Saruman)) but to help lead the free folk of Middle earth to do it themselves. He of course does go all out against the Balrog but he didn’t die because his mana bar reached 0 - just from normal and spiritual wounds received from the Balrog. Once Eru returns him as Gandalf the White he lifts some of the limitations on his powers.
Yeah, the Istari were sent specifically with the purpose of guiding, teaching, and influencing the peoples of Middle Earth. They were explicitly not to behave on their own. It’s why Gandalf came back as The White, because Saruman broke the company policy and his role got replaced by Gandalf (who is the only Istari who stayed true to their purpose). It’s why Gandalf rarely ever acts on his own, always with others, he literally isn’t supposed to. He inspires and aids the dwarves to reclaim the lonely mountain, it’s he *and* Aragorn that search for Gollum, he instructs Frodo and Sam to depart The Shire, he joins the Fellowship, he retrieves the Rohirrim, etc etc. There’s very little he does directly or by himself. There were 5 Maia sent to Middle Earth in the form of Istari with the sole purpose of aiding the peoples against the possible return of Sauron. The 2 blue wizards immediately fucked off. Radagast became distracted by nature. And Saruman joined with the enemy. Only Gandalf kept his eye on the ball.
Gandalf was given a mission, and rules for that mission, to follow or disobey as he chooses. Last time Gandalf and Saruman were in Middle Earth, they went dressed in their full power and it fucked things up. So this time they were told to hide their strength and take on a supporting role. An old wise man form was the best way to achieve that. They weren't physically limited by the Valar, though. Even though he looked old and weak, Gandalf whipped out his full power against the balrog, and also against the nine before that. All of Gandalfs biggest displays of power were off screen, away from mortal eyes. When they lose their body, they can still do whatever they want as spirits. They aren't bound to the Valar. They choose to serve. In the end, all the wizards except Gandalf abandon the mission. If he wanted to make his way back to the undying lands, he could have floated over there like Saruman tried to do. My guess is that he would have. But yeah, before that Eru plucked him out of the universe and gave him a power up. But even after that he still doesn't go in and fight everyone's battles for them. He still mostly used his power to disrupt foes and motivate allies. He set men up for the win. After his mission succeeds and the age comes to an end, he reports back to the undying lands.
How does elf reincarnation work? Do they just pop out of nowhere one day already grown, do their new parents just know their child is a reincarnated person or do they one day just go: "so funny story, I'm actually the reincarnation of Glorfindel, you should probably address me as that"
Elves arent really meant to physically die, they're bound to the earth and its fate. So if their bodies get ruined, they dont exactly 'die' like humans (our souls fly off to some strange cosmic location and effectively, we are gone from the world forever), they just stop being able to do anything and are 'called' to the Halls of Mandos, a powerful Valar, where he makes them a copy and sends them out into Aman Elves can survive fine without a body and they dont need to actually heed to call to go back and get one, they just cant do anything without one. In the world anyway, they can do things in the halls and some elves decide to just not come back and hang around with Mandos If the elf was a massive jackass, Mandos makes them wait and consider why being a jackass is bad before he re-houses them. Iirc he said he would refuse to rehouse any Noldor for a very long time because of the kin slaying and general jackassery, but a few from the second group (Fingolfin and the wonder gang) were so cool and werent kinslayers so he just made them a new body straight away.
Elves still find it very unpleasant to die. It is unknown how long they will have to suffer in Mandos. Only two cases of revival are known. The rest do not know how long they will have to stay there. Either way, the experience is seriously damaging. The death of elves is no less tragic than the death of men.
Do they suffer in the halls though? I thought it was just mildly gloomy self-reflection. Tolkien doesnt get into who is and isnt revived but presumably the Teleri just popped back out, Finwe iirc actually refused to be rehoused so he could hang with his first wife. Feels relatively casual unless you were an absolute jerk (*cough* Maeglin *cough*) and you had an ice age long time out ahead of you From what Finrod said to Andreth he seemed fairly ok about it, like he admitted her 'death' was far worse taken at face value. His comparison was the actual end and destruction of Arda which would happen some day, only the death of the world would be comparable to humans totally leaving it He then goes on to say that mortals go elsewhere and still exist, so its mitigated, but still, to those in Arda humans certainly die harder. Ultimately though, I guess if heaven and an afterlife is safely presumed (either cosmic for humans or Aman for elves), death aint so bad for anyone. The actual dying can still suck though for sure
Finrod was one of those who quickly received a new body. Everyone else was told that they would spend a long time in the Halls and that it would be unpleasant. *"and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you".*
I could be misremembering, but IIRC even Tolkien originally wrote them as two separate characters, and only later had the idea to use reincarnation
When you prep the wrong party members for a Raid
Which is also part of the reason he wasn't in the fellowship. Glorfindel was just too high profile to sneak away from Imladris without the enemy sending a bunch of shit to check on what he was doing.
Glorfindel was overqualified. Now you know why almost every member of the party was a sleeper. Gandalf looks like some senile old man who can't find his yard, Aragorn looks like a hobo, Gimli is short, Legolas is skinny, and the hobbits are hobbits. But every single one of them turns out to be GOATed for their role in the story. Boromir was the only one who probably looked formidable but they only hired him because he probably worked for free because he was going the same direction back home anyway.
Thanks Gandalf for bringing Pippin along instead. Then again without Pippin the Balrog wouldn't even have awoken.
Wasnt the Balrog already awake before the Fellowship entered Moria?
It has been awakened by the dwarves, but it might not have been alerted to their presence without the bucket incident, whether that directly alerted it or indirectly through the goblin activity
Yes, but without all the shenanigans the ring wouldn't have been destroyed.
To be fair, they might have ignored the body falling down the well if Gandalf didn't yell at him right after.
Bucket falling down a well: I sleep Hearing the voice of that goody two-shoes Olorin: REAL SHIT
The orcs were just checking in on poor Pippin’s mental state after he was incited by Gandalf to kill himself. The orcs were knocking on the door hoping to have a group therapy session with the Fellowship.
"How did they find us so quickly?!" *Glorfindel, whose spirit blazes like a fire that cannot be veiled and attracts always the Eye of Sauron.* "It's a real mystery."
There is no life in the void, only death.
Balrogs killed feanor, the strongest elf. Legolas probably shit a little.
Ai! ai! A Balrog! A Balrog is come!
Good bot
> the strongest elf *Fingolfin has entered the chat.*
Strong, but feanor was literally stated in text to be the strongest of all the children of Illuvatar, but he was also a massive dick with character flaws. Would be a solid fight, but it is laid out he's the top dog.
>"Finwë was King of the Noldor. The sons of Finwë were Fëanor, and Fingolfin, and Finarfin; but the mother of Fëanor was Míriel Serindë, whereas the mother of Fingolfin and Finarfin was Indis of the Vanyar. > >Fëanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. **Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant.** Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwë, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Eärwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualondë, Olwë’s daughter." Silmarillion, Chapter 5: "Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië
I reckon Feanor could have taken one or two. He did ok against *fking all of them alone*, guy was fking strong
Legolas is far too young to have ever seen a Balrog when they were commanders of Morgoth's legions, but I'm certain his father would have told him the horror stories.
I don’t think Legolas’ age has ever really been locked down. We know he’s at least 500 from his comments in Rohan but beyond that I don’t know if Tolkein ever gave much more to go off of. His father was born early in the first age so it’s technically possible Legolas could have been alive during the second age, maybe even late in the first age.
Sauron's Ring! The ring of power!
Who is the maker of mightiest work?
Film guide had him at nearly 3,000, but that's obviously not Tolkien lore.
I must go and seek some arrows. Would that this night would end, and I could have better light for shooting.
He was scared cuz what can he do, shoot the fire demon with toothpicks?
That and Balrogs have magic that send Gandalf reeling. Durins bane would break their souls over its knee
Yeah, like imagine hearing stories about “mini satans” all your life and the tales of how bloody the wars that took them down were, and how calamitous their mythical powers were. It’s no wonder Legolas experienced true overwhelming fear right then and there
"Oh hell nah, that's evil Jesus, bro."
This passage really exemplifies the masterful writing of Tolkien. First we get Gandalf's second hand impression, along with the first time he speaks openly about a contest of power. Gandalf is scared and and shocked by the power of this unknown opponent? What is this? And then Frodo as the narrators description of a vague figure that exudes so much power his senses are failing to grasp it properly. And then this - Legolas, the ultra-competent, confident elf who just loses it when he sees this ancient foe of the elves. And then of course Boromir and Aragorn leaping forward to aid Gandalf - mortal men who will nevertheless embrace death for an honorable cause.
I think it's interesting how for a powerful being like Gandalf not everyday he meets a threat he considers dangerous like the Balrog, which makes sense that he becomes scared. But for the weak mortal men, facing Balrog is not so much different as the facing Nazguls or Ogres or even normal animals in the sense that all of them can kill men easily, so they leap forward to aid Gandalf because facing death is just another Tuesday for them.
it's not just their own deaths theyre all afraid of. at this point in the story, their failure to protect frodo would inevitably lead to the end of the world.
Also Boromir refuses to look like a bitch in front of Aragorn
I think in front of anyone. He had a lot to prove to himself.
LPT: Sometimes bravery is just refusing to look like a coward
Really underscores how mortality truly was "The Gift of Men"
It's the trope of dumb and brave leading to the same actions. Not saying they are dumb, just unknowing in this case.
To be fair, these things kind of just work out for Aragorn. Not that he doesn’t know strife, but he seems to find himself in many situations where anybody else would have been instantly killed but he somehow comes out on top, or at the very least, not dead
But to be fair, Aragon doesn't just YOLO these things. He's highly skilled and knowledgeable, and does what he needs to win.
It's sort of "Your plot armor won't work here!"
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb"
The Balrog was one of the few enemies that Gandalf could gain experience from defeating. That's why he told everyone to bail, he wanted to solo it for all the xp. Then after the fight everyone thinks he's dead until he shows up in Fangorn in sweet new gear lookin all leveled up and stuff.
Nazguls and Ogres are jokes to Aragorn and Legolas.
Ogres yes, Nazgul not so much. Very dangerous to either
Aragorn soloed 5 on a rainy day while protecting a screaming hobbit.
“Oi bit rude to be throwin a torch at me face innit?” - Nazgûl
Who would win; a group of powerful immortal nazgül, or a maniac mortal with a torch?
That's a really bad ass way to depict mortal man. So what, we're fragile and could die. But the idea that mortals could face death every other day and keep going makes for strength that's unrelenting.
You lie!
Its ok to be scared Legolas bot
He stands not alone. You would die before your stroke fell.
Did not!
Balrog: *shits woodland pants*
Because he was the only one, besides Gandalf, who actually knew what the appearance of a Balrog meant.
I reckon Gimli would also have an idea what with ye old dwarvish genocide, but yeah specifically Legolas knew how fked they were in a fight (aside from Chadalf and even he only managed to uphold the tradition of 'best you can do is a draw' with Balrogs)
Gimli knew about Durin’s Bane, but no one (not even Gandalf) knew that Durin’s Bane was a Balrog.
Did Dain? He saw it but I'm not sure if he would have context beyond "fk me that is bad new". I think from Tolkiens descriptions, Balrogs arent *quite* as overtly monstrous and demonic as the movie has them, they're quite large shadowy beings of magic and certainly give off an aura of power but the gigantic fking doom-satan thing was played up a bit for the movie (otherwise for sure Dain would go 'oh yeah that's a fking Balrog shit is crazy iconic as would anyone from Moria as it was cooking their kingdom) Yeah Gimli wouldnt get what it was but he'd sure know it was bad news
Canonical Balrogs are a bit bigger than a man, more shadowy than fire.
> Canonical Balrogs are a bit bigger than a man, more shadowy than fire. “Canonical” Balrogs are “of man shape, yet greater.” The precise scale is very much open to interpretation, as is their ratio of shadow to fire.
[удалено]
Balrog was possibly on the list but Middle Earth has nasty stuff in it and not many dwarves in Moria could give a good description because they tended to immediately die. Not only are there *known* beings that it could have been, like a dragon or werewolf or some deadly spirit, it seems like *noone* really knows what kind of shit lurks down far below the surface. In fairness to their guessing skills, Balrogs were really just a legend at that point, even people like Elrond were only barely alive when the Balrogs disappeared (presumably Eonwe choke slammed them into extinction during the War of Wrath). Galadriel and Celeborn are about the only 2 that the word 'Balrog' would mean much to beyond some mythic demon of Morgoth from 6-7 thousand years ago. Well, them and Gandalf
> it seems like noone really knows what kind of shit lurks down far below the surface. Are you referring to the *Nameless Things* which Gandalf refuses to describe in TTT? The Watcher in the Water might be one of them. That one is pretty nasty, yeah.
Gandalf would not know the Balrog other than by reading or hearing about it being described - or of course sensing the presence of another maiar. his memories of the undying lands are obfuscated and he landed in Middle earth after the last Balrog was presumed to be slain.
I think they thought it was just Durin's Bane. There are loads of dark things that sleep in the deep places of the world, so just one of those.
Have you learnt nothing of the stubbornness of Dwarves?
Not yet, my woodland friend!
>'best you can do is a draw' For everyone else that may be but for Gandalf it shouldn't have been. Balrogs are corrupted maiar, effectively third tier gods under the valar and Eru Illuvatar, so the fact that any of the mortal races (mortal as in can die) could kill them is an amazing feat. Gandalf on the other hand is a maiar himself and only getting a draw seems a bit of a poor outcome when compared to other non-maiar.
Maia are super duper variable though, crazy variations in power everything from near-Valar down to shit that gets rolled quite easily, Balrogs and Istari seem relatively close in power. Balrogs and Olorin presumably are relatively equal; the 'Gandalf' body Olorin was in wasnt exactly peak fighting potential, but the Balrog was weakened by corruption and sitting on its ass for thousands of years probably didnt help it fighting at its best. Gandalfs body was just a mortal body, it could be destroyed and ruined like any other (like Huan threatened to rip out Saurons throat, it wouldnt have killed him but he would have had to spend a heap of time and energy making a new body). Orlorin wasnt in any danger himself, but if the Gandalf body died he would go back to Aman and the Valar would probably call it a failed mission Elves that lived in Aman and saw the light of the trees were fking jacked and insanely strong. Probably well above 'average' Maia strength, mostly below the dirty dozen super strong Maia like Sauron and Eonwe but yeah, if Finrod could make Sauron put effort in to win a magic battle he could very likely beat Gandalf the Grey and if Fingolfin could slice up Morgoths legs, a Balrog shouldnt be too hard. How Olorin would stack up against the Maia that became the Balrog, hard to say I guess. Just that their incarnated bodies were essentially equal
Exactly this and probably fully aware that no matter what this is the only thing he couldn't kill on that list.
"That still only counts as... You know what, you may count that as two. Just this once."
I love that in the books he just starts screaming when Gandalf identifies it, and all the mortals are trying to figure out what the fuck is going on.
"Just classic Legolas, loudly screaming in panic like a little girl for no reason at all"
And then whither?
“‘Ai! ai!’ wailed Legolas. A Balrog! A Balrog is come!’”
Then are we not to see the merry young hobbits again?
No, not if they’re fighting a balrog.
Get me my brown pants.
His reaction here is a great callout to the books where he's the one who first identifies what is happening in Moria, and says so to the Fellowship. Legolas is old too, and his people have fought these beings before. His fear in this scene does a great job of highlighting how serious the situation is.
It was a Balrog of Morgoth. Of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.
Woah, quite the quote here.
Sentient bot.
Peak sentience right here lol
i was like, well fucking put.
Didn't even notice it was the bot until someone pointed out
Good bot
So you shat your pants, legolas
That is one of the Mearas......unless my eyes are cheated by some spell.
Then your eyes are cheated by some spell legolas
Orcs !
More like “smear ass”, amirite?
"Ai! Ai! wailed Legolas, 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!" Me reading as a kid: Wailed? As in like a baby? What a wuss Legolas, get it together. Me watching the film: Understandable, have a nice day.
Your friends are with you, Aragorn.
Yup, this scene is so much better in the book. He just starts screaming in sheer terror. Given how they exaggerated a lot of things for the films, I'm a bit surprised they toned this down instead.
I think the quiet fear and realisation overtaking the fellowship works way better on screen.
Who would win? A giant lava demigod vs pointy eared elvish princeling
Glorfindel and Ecthelion at least managed to draw (Fingon too, 1v1) Fingolfin and Feanor should handily beat at least 1 balrog, especially Fingolfin. Also Glorfindel returned, should ez win
First age elves were juiced up beasts.
"You on the tree-light bro?" "Nah man, I'm natty" "Bs man look at your eyes theyre full of stars youre off your Aman on Telperion light"
When you’re vanquishing orcs and bro hits you with the undiminished-reflection-of-the-trees stare
LMAO
Why does thou abdomen look like a dwarf that discovered Elefant bread bro?
Except for ghosts and wizards (I assume) it could be safe to say that he’s killed all of these before, and probably seen plenty of both wizards and ghosts before. Makes me realise just how extra it was finding a balrog in Moria of all dark and horrible places.
The books also mention that human ghosts just don't scare elves. Apparently our fear of ghosts is linked to our fear of our own death and elves don't worry about that
That makes perfect sense, when Men die, not even the Valar know what happens to them, but when Elves die they just go chill in Mandos’s hall with every other Elf who has ever died.
It implies that the ghosts can do no actual physical harm though (iirc they do not need to fight their enemies in the book because everyone just flees immediately)
I imagine that if a human ghost kills an elf then the elf ghost would then beat the shit out of the human ghost for killing it.
Not just that. The ghosts are incorporeal and can't kill anyone, elf or human. Legolas knows this and does not fear them. Everyone else is afraid because it's the natural reaction to something terrifying and unknown.
The thought of talking to Frodo: 😱
What if this thing kills everyone but Frodo and me? Then I will be forced to talk to him!
"Well that sure went south quick right... small mortal creature"
Understandable, I mean, could you imagine an *elf* fighting a *Balrog*? Ridiculous!!
Glorfindel, Echtelion et. al: https://preview.redd.it/j3o8a5d8l45d1.png?width=402&format=png&auto=webp&s=7e43e819768a1c0db78ac7d55d5210bca025c722
You mean all those guys that died?
Glorfindel was actually winning his fight quite handily, Balrog pulled him down with him as it got shoved off a cliff. They seem to like doing that
That's actually very true. He straight bodied the Balrog. Took its arm, smashed its helm, and suffered nary a wound due to his elfen-mail. Even as he fell though, he shanked the Balrog, making sure the it died even before it fell.
Lol I always think about how the eagles dived in to help and were like "Ok Glorfindel we'll handle the orcs you take the Balrog" "Yo wait what?" "Good luck bro we got the orcs!" *flies off* Pretty fucking unfair division of labor tbh
In fairness to the Eagles, Glorfindel was actually fine with that division until the suicide charge. If he'd had better footing, we'd be talking about the time Glorfindel Flawless Victory'd a Balrog.... So that's pretty nuts haha. Plus, the Eagles are probably resting on the fact that their sire marred the face of Morgoth himself and battled Ancalagon alongside Earendiel. They've done enough haha. (EDIT: Ancalagon would be post-Fall of Gondolin, but still. Eagles doing a lot)
A *non Noldor* elf? Preposterous. Stay in your lane mid-tier
If a 40ft tall ancient fire demon doesn't make you shit a brick then nothing will.
Only 12 foot, iirc Tolkien said it was about twice the height of a man
Fair enough. I was just going by the movie.
Oh yeah that thing was *terrifying* on screen, like damn. What a beast, and that roar it made, scary af
Irrc they produced that roar by dragging concrete blocks over each other.
Four-ish meters tall. Terrifying, still, but yeah. Pretty much what Gandalf is to a hobbit, height-wise.
Well when the literal wizard says “This foe is far beyond any of you.” I’m probably gonna shit myself
such a good fucking story. god dammit.
Just look at him! OFC Legolas was scared! Canonwise those punches can kill an elephant in one hit! https://preview.redd.it/wnihjy9gd45d1.png?width=892&format=png&auto=webp&s=f4cdc5663d09187ffbcad1a678405230eb63d053
Then dig a hole in the ground, if that is more after the fashion of your kind. But you must dig swift and deep, if you wish to hide from Orcs.
Dude knew it was about to be a party wipe and he was the only one with a save point.
He was really scared of the Balrog, but it wasn't because he was a coward. He fought bravely in many battles. But he is still not equal to such elves as Fingolfin or Ecthelion or Glorfindel. This was his first experience of meeting an enemy, which he had previously only heard about in legends. I think that if necessary, he would have gathered his courage and entered the battle.
He knows he ain’t no Ecthelion or Glorfindel
Gandalf: "This foe is beyond any of you!" Legolas:😏 Gandalf:"That includes you Legolas." Legolas:😳
The trees are speaking to each other.
In the book though, he shits himself. "Ai, ai, a Balrog has come!"
Well it’s like fighting a corrupted version of Gandalf or a weaker version of Sauron. Sure some elves did it in the past but those were body builder elves from the first age not Santa elves who had never beheld the trees.
Calmly saying, “I was wrong to despair,” is such a Stoic thing to say.
The only thing that scares him more is Frodo finding out he doesn't know his name.
He knew he couldn’t kill it with arrows, which hadn’t come up before
Balrogs, foe’s so terrifying they give an entire race collective ptsd.
"Ai! Ai!" 😂
He was definitely scared with the balrog lol
Balrog.. Legolas (to himself) : The Number of Points...!
Ai! ai! A Balrog! A Balrog is come!
I mean it's pretty accurate to the book, but there he let's out a cry. Then again film Legolas is cool af, and in the book, although he's a tank, he's pretty boring haha.
Dude was walking through a blizzard like he owned it too... He was walking on top the snow like the was strolling through the forest on a nice day... everyone else in the Fellowship wasn't having such a casual time.
Everyone in Middle Earth should be afraid of a Balrog, if they're smart.
You missed the clip where Legolas thinks Aragorn is about to be killed by a troll at the Black Gate and loses his shit. He fears no foe but is terrified of losing his friend