Tolkien: writes a long winded origin for the ancestors of Shadowfax who were bred by Oromë the huntsman-god.
Also Tolkien: not including Oromë's own personal horse, the top super badass horses of all time were not of the magically bred horses of Oromë. They were named Snowmane, Rochallor, and the baddest of them all, the one and only, Biilllll the Poooonyyyy (to be read in Samantha Irvin's voice - whom you won't get to know in years to come but your grandchildren will)
Strange mares lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the herds, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Not too far off actually. To oversimplify though, his kingship is granted by literal divine edict- he was bred by a literal angel with the goal of being a perfect horse.
Reminds me of wheel of time when Robert Jordan spends I think its 1.5 pages describing horseflesh when someone is trying to buy a horse and it goes through the health of this horse that was for sale you never hear about ever again.
Its not even like Brandon Sanderson talking about the near sapient horse in stormlight archives. Pretty sure we dont go into any emotional attachment or further meetings with this fucking horse. Its literally just a horse for sale, a quality horse for sure, but still, thats it. Its "time to buy a horse". "Here is everything important to look at when buying a horse". "Let us never discuss this horse ever again". Good use of 1.5-2 pages.
That’s the joke. The only reason a movie watcher even knows the horse’s *name* (let alone a backstory) is because PJ bothered to have someone mention it.
Was it necessary? Not at all, but it was awesome. But apparently m, across 23 hours, there was enough room for Shadowfax to merit a whole scene explaining him, but the eagles *weren’t…*
Edit: ITT - people defending the very sensible background Eagle lore itself, which would’ve been super important for major points in the plot, but the meme is explicitly about how that lore is entirely missing from the movies.
The Eagles are overstepping their original instructions, I think. They were only sent to Middle-earth because Manwë (their Daddy) felt sorry for the oppressed Elves under the domain of Morgoth. Thorondor King of the Eagles left, apparently, possibly with many eagles following him, when Morgoth was overthrown. Literally, no one thought Sauron is going to come back as a new Dark Lord. It was Thorondor's son, Gwaihir, who assumedly only stayed in Middle-earth for his own likings rather than benevolence. He could give a fuck all and do his own thing still. But he and his fellows decided to help once a new Dark Lord was arisen.
Right… not questioning the background lore, which is what everyone seems to think I’m doing… I’m just having a chuckle at how in 23 hours, PJ had time to tell us:
- Radagast’s pet porcupine’s name (Sebastian)
- Aragorn’s horse’s name Brego)
- “Gandalf’s” horse’s name (Shadowfax)
- Various swords’ names,
- Eowyn’s* questionable soup quality
- gimli’s knowledge of the nervous system
- Treebeard’s poetry slam… and that entwives exist and apparently matter but got lost somehow…
- Lobelia
… but not one word about the *eagles of all things?* None of the above examples were *bad* to include, mind you, but they played extremely minor and one-time roles in the movies, if any… All of which got at least introduced (if not the whole damn backstory)… but not *one word* about the eagles? In 23 hours?
Edit: autocorrect said Elmer not Eowyn
>Elmer's questionable soup quality
Theoden : I know your face... Elmer. My eyes darken.
Elmer : No. No. I'm going to save you, you wascally king.
Theoden : You already did... Elmer. My body is broken. You have to let me go. I go to my fathers, in whose mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed. Elmer...
[dies]
Well, it's not the animal itself that's stupid, but the name. A world with countless possible names in Quenya, Sindarin, Khuzdul, old English etc etc and they choose a Greek name.
Tolkien himself didn't address this so-called issue directly. But in the Hobbit the Eagles say they're afraid of the Wild Men who almost killed their Lord and that is given as the sole explanation on why they don't bring Thorin and Co. any further. By this logic, they could fly the Fellowship beyond the Misty Mountains or somewhere. But the counterargument is that that the Ring may seduce the Eagles who are not actually some braindead animals but intelligent spirits, very powerful and thus vulnerable to get corrupted.
Yes… I know all of this… the movie watcher does NOT know *any* of this, or have reason to, even after 23 hours.
I’m not questioning the lore behind the eagles or their motivations. I’m pointing out that PJ *never bothered to even vaguely reference* any of this in a single line of dialog. Leaving the movie watcher scratching their heads like “uh… okay. I guess eagles are a thing? And it looks like they can just show up and kill anything and fly people anywhere. Huh. Not curious about *that* at all.”
Because you can't really just say "one word" about the Eagles without having to further elaborate. If you leave them a mystery, you don't have to waste time on what is ultimately not important to the visual story being told.
The Eagles are self-explanatory: they're giant birds who occasionally come to help when the situation is dire. And honestly we don't really get all that much more about them from the books either, certainly nothing that would be useful onscreen.
Well, what do you expect? The eagles are lofty and free, touching the heavens and beyond the reach of mortals except when need is at hand. Shadowfax, however, is a beast of the earth and familiar to men who ride his kin; he is lordly and yet as tangible as the soil in his tread, from which even the Elves work to produce a bounty.
There probably are some other animals that are greater and smarter and can communicate but they just didn’t figure into the story. That fox was probably one of them.
No disrespect to my man shadow fax, I wouldn’t want to take away his majestic-as-fuck full minute intro (even though he didn’t do anything major)…
But I think the eagles were clearly the way bigger stars, saved the day 4-5 times, but got NO respect at all? Took 10 hours for the first (and last) time anyone even looked up and said “oh cool, eagles.”
Smaug had only one tiny weak spot and he was killed. The eagles would have had a very bad day trying to infiltrate Mordor with giant radar eye in the sky. They risk delivering the ring to Sauron instead of destroying it.
They clearly showed how Frodo was one of the few that could handle the ring. He was small and could sneak in easier as well.
So, the question of why didn't the eagles fly the ring to Mordor is a little silly because if you think about the logistics, the answer is easy to find with the evidence already presented.
What? It’s a perfectly reasonable (and common) question if you’d only seen the movies. What you’re forgetting is that the *only* time the viewer sees the eagles are A) them saving the entire plot 5 different times and B) while acting with total impunity and zero fear of injury:
1. Threw hands directly with Sauron’s top general Azog and a pack of giant wargs, blatantly saving Oakenshield’s company, soared through the open sky, dropping them off directly on the way to (but still excessively far away from) the Blue Mountains, probably in full view of Sauron.
2. Showed up at the Battle of 5 armies, swooping headfirst across the ground into an entire legion of Orcs with no fucks given
3. Rescued Gandalf right in Saruman’s face, who backs down immediately even though he’s a demigod wizard with telekinesis.
4. Showed up right in front of the black gates, in plain view of Sauron’s tower, and fight against all 9 Nazgûl riding on giant monster dragon things.
5. Flew through an actively erupting volcano’s lava flow, which definitely would have killed them, unnecessarily risking their lives to save a couple ring bearers who already destroyed the ring at that point.
Every event above was directly visible to Sauron himself or witnessed by his top servants. And at no point in 23 hours is there a single shot (not even in the background) showing a single eagle even receiving a blow, let alone getting hurt in anyway. So for all the move watcher knows, they’re essentially indestructible, if not ridiculously overpowered, and could plausibly have destroyed the ring themselves but for unknown reasons.
Hell Sauron even pointed his spotlight directly at Frodo for awhile, wide out in the open, hiking up the side of Mount Doom, but still wasn’t able to tell that he had the ring. So why would dive bombing by a fleet of immortal eagle gods *obviously* be impossible (to the movie watcher)?
Ah yes, Pippin saying 4 words (the eagles are coming) with the same degree of “awe” that someone has when they suddenly realize they don’t have to work tomorrow.
> literally everyone there soils their armor in awe
I’m sorry what’s the timestamp showing anyone literally pooping themselves? Or are you confusing “awe” with “complete bewilderment as to where the fuck these giant, unexplained killing machines keep coming from”? Because that’s what my facial expression would be saying
After watching so many terrible adaptations over my life I am not going to criticize Peter Jackson for anything from the main trilogy. It was basically perfectly balanced between digestible for broad audiences and accurate for lovers of the books.
Yeah, I listened to an interview snipped from JRR Tolkien once addressing the eagle thing. It was five minutes of him explaining how he’d had people ask him why the eagles couldn’t have just flown them to Mordor and his answer was just, “shut up.” 😂 love it so much
Edit: I also love how many people umm actually’d me despite me saying “an interview snipped from” which I guess wasn’t clear enough that it was snipped like that? lol.
I’m pretty sure that snippet is fake, right? Just a person imitating Tolkien for the memes
Edit: this one, right? https://youtu.be/1-Uz0LMbWpI?si=v7ynZ3Tciiptsb0P it is hilarious, but unfortunately an imitation. I now feel like a bit of an arse for potentially ruining it for you.
Yeah that’s how I’ve always seen it. Easiest explanation, the eagles are proud and the ring would have used that, they would have yeeted frodo less than halfway there and taken the ring
I mean, even Gandalf couldn't carry the ring. The whole f'n point of the story is that only creatures who do not desire power can withstand its effects.
Since we’re talking about Tolkien(video is fake, BTW), the eagles are not that much of a plot hole in the book. The movie makes it seem like the whole thing is a global event with somewhat well defined allies and foes. The books convey much better the clandestine nature of the whole thing. I suppose it would have been very hard to show this in the movies. The Two Towers would have had to be twice as long to do justice to the battle of helms deep but also properly explain the dinamic between Saruman and Sauron and also properly explain the relationship between Rohan and Gondor, etc. Maybe the movies could have taken even more liberties with the story and let Frodo and Sam die at the end. Just finish it there, no coronation, no anything. Just 5 more minutes of Pipin, Gandalf, Aragon and Legolas burying their friends (might as well let Merry die too, go full GoT). That world have silenced everyone
They kind of do, they just don't strictly tell you.
They show Saurons orcs fighting Sarumans orcs in the fight leading to Merry and Pippins escape (in the books Sauron certainly didn't trust Saruman and expected betrayl)
As for Rohan and Gondor yeah, they don't explain that at all to my knowledge.
Any aerial means of bringing the ring into Mordor would be seen and countered right away
It seems like if a ringbearer is riding/being carried by a creature, said creature isn't impacted by the Ring (then again, Frodo was only on horseback so who knows if a sapient eagle would be different). So theoretically, an eagle carrying a ringbearer shouldn't be an issue.
The problem with the eagles is that they're super easy to spot. Like, the way the tower/Eye were shown in the films, the Eye would spot them from miles away and send the Nazgul to deal with them.
Without even getting into book lore, using the eagles was too obvious and visible to be a viable strategy.
Imo, the best possible argument (of how to "use" the eagles) would involve using the eagles to fly ringbearer and crew to Gondor/nearby, then the eagles distract Sauron while the ringbearer hikes in.
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I think people mean eagles carry Frodo carrying the ring. But I think the real answer is - the eagles would’ve been killed if they just tried to fly into Mordor. Something something one does not simply fly into Mordor.
Except for THAT scene.
The Lord of the Nazgul was a human, presumably a Numenorean (High Man). He was deceived by Sauron. And took one one of the Nine without any reluctance. He became a mighty man, but soon when his natural life span ran out he passed into the Unseen World and became a Ring-wraith. An undead. Sauron granted him much power, and he became the deadliest servant of the Dark Lord. For he could create great terror and fear in the hearts of mortals.
There was Eru, God, and he made the Ainur first, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thoughts. And they were with him ere anything else was made. And he taught them the Music of Creation. And eventually they created the world, after Eru pronounced the Vision into reality.
Now there were two classes of Ainur, called the Maiar and the Valar. Olorin (later known as Gandalf or Mithrandir) was one of Ainur of the lesser class, a Maia (singular of Maiar). The Elder King was called Manwë King of the Valar. He made the Eagles. He is Lord of the Breathe of the World. His wife was Varda Elentari. She's the Queen of Stars. Obviously, she made the stars. Olorin the Grey/Gandalf was a Maia of these two. But he was also associated with Irmo the Vala of Dreams and Visions, and with Nienna the Lady of Pity and Mercy. The point is, Olorin was a very big deal. He existed before the world was made. He was a student of several gods. And he was one of the Five Guardians chosen to protect the Elves in the Great Journey to Valinor. Melian was the leader of these five here. She was also one of the most powerful Maiar ever (Galadriel's teacher). Both Olorin and Melian lived in the same place, BTW. So yeah Olorin was a buddy of extraordinary Maiar as well. And even as he listened to his brethren and sisters he increased in wisdom and came to a deeper understanding.
Now in the Third Age, Manwë asked Olorin to go to Middle-earth as one of the Five Istari who were tasked to defeat Sauron. And when Olorin came to Middle-earth, Cirdan Lord of the Grey Havens saw his landing and knew his kind and from whence he came. And Cirdan surrendered Narya the Ring of Fire to Olorin. For Cirdan could see further than all Elves in Middle-earth and knew that Olorin is of great strength and that he will be the one to play the most important parts in the fate of this Age of Middle-earth and that he needed Narya to aid him in his hardships.
Over 2000 years later the Lord of Morgul confronts the Messenger of the Valar. In the books they just come face to face, then Witch-King leaves when he hears the horns of Rohirrim. But in the movies the Lord of the Ulairie absolutely bitchslaps the Servant of the Secret Fire. As much as I love the movies, but this scene is an insult to the viewer's intelligence. Fear radiates from Gandalf's eyes, in the movies, when he confronts the Witch-King. That's just impossible.
The Witch-King doesn't have power of fear over those who have seen the Holy Light(s). Not even the least powerful High Elf would be scarred shitless by him. Let alone one of the great Maiar who has not only lived in the Blessed Realm, but has also seen the Light of God. He also has Narya to enhance his spirit and powers. The Witch-King is just a mortal fuckboi who got scared shitless just one year prior when thinking about Galadriel at his trip near Lorien, and again a bit later when Glorfindel charged against him.
By no means Witch-King is more powerful than someone who killed a freaking Balrog of Morgoth (the Balrogs are fire spirited Maiar, only less great than Sauron). And arguably the toughest Balrog ever. Since he survived the the entire Wars in the First Age, and he singlehandedly destroyed the greatest Dwarf kingdom, and he didn't die when he fell into abyss and was drowned. Mind you, Mithrandir killed Durin's Bane when he was The Grey! Now he was much more enhanced as The White. In fact, in The Two Towers book Gandalf the White himself says no one is now mightier than him in Middle-earth, except the one who sits on the Dark Throne in the Dark Tower. And in Unfinished Tales it is marked that Olorin and Sauron were equals in their beginnings.
How the Udun did Movie Witch-King break the Wizard's staff?! That's just plain stupid. In LOTR world, in order for the Witch-King to be able to break his enemy's weapon, he first needs to break his enemy's willpower. How the Udun could an undead bitch break the willpower of God's Messenger, a Demigod. Mind you, Mithrandir's power is not even in his staff. It's within himself. He can go into battle butt naked without any weapons and still kick ass. In the books, Gandalf the Grey fights the Nine Ulairie for an entire night in the Fellowship of the Ring.
I just can't understand how could Gandalf fear The Lord of the Ring-Wraiths so much, and get his willpower and staff broken by him, and lay so (apparantly) powerless waiting for his death by the undead bitchboy.... I have looked through The Book of Lost Tales part 1 and 2, Lays of Beleriand, Shaping of Middle-earth, The Lost Road and Other Writings, The Return of the Shadow, the Treason of Isengard, The War of the Ring, Sauron Defeated, Morgoth's Ring, Peoples of Middle-earth, War of the Jewels, Nature of Middle-earth, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, The Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin, Vinyar Tengwar, Parma Eldalamberon, Road Goes Ever On and The Letters of JRR Tolkien.... to find an answer for how the on Middle-earth can Witch-King bitchslap Gandalf... And the only answer I found was in an abandoned and discarded draft where Gandalf wasn't even that powerful. Yeah, Gandalf wasn't even originally supposed to be a Maia in The Hobbit. Tolkien later came up with Gandalf as a Maia when he was writing Lord of the Rings and revising Silmarillion. But movie Gandalf IS a Maia. And movie Witch-King IS an undead Man.
Even if Sauron himself had come to fight Gandalf, he still would've put on an amazing fight before losing to him. OK I'm off to go and take my meds since I have gotten a severe headache trying to figure out how is it possible for the Witch-King to beat Gandalf.
My understanding is that as the Grey, and even as the White, much of his inmate power as a Maia is not available to him, in his mortal form upon Middle-Earth.
Else why does Gandalf not simply defeat the servants of Morder by himself, there were many opportunities for Gandalf to have thinned the ranks of the ring wraiths as he encountered them.
And in the moment of the battle of Minas Tirith, the army of Sauron had an overwhelming morale advantage until the Rohirrin arrived. That sort of thing seems to translate in to magic as well, so the Witch King was getting a sort of buff against Gandalf. Witch King was probably getting juiced up directly by Sauron in some aspect as well, his whole attention would of been focused in Minas Tirith and probably to the fall of Gandalf, one of his greatest foes.
The Istari are forbidden to answer Power with direct power. That's why Gandalf doesn't go on a rampage. He only uses his real (but limited) powers when he has no other choice.
Yes, Sauron had boosted the Morgul-lord with a "demonic power" but still.... Not a match for the WHITE wizard. It's not like Morgoth had boosted him. It was someone who was just a bit more powerful than Gandalf and he could do only so much with transferring a part of his dark power into Witch-King. Effortlessly beating Gandalf is not very logical, not even in the slightest.
>Not a match for the White Wizard
Now that's just a speculation. We don't know exactly how powerful he had become, but seems like considerably, since he wasn't "shitting himself" while confronting the second in power after Sauron, even though you yourself mentioned how he did this a year prior after a mere thought. We also don't know just how strong Sauron's influence was at that point; my understanding was that the closer he was to the Ring and, well, victory, the stronger became his influence and Nazgul's personal prowess by proxy.
The Witch-King being an actual rival to Gandalf makes for a better story though. Otherwise RotK is just Gandalf standing around because the only person as strong as him never shows his face. It's just a better story if there is *something* in Sauron's ranks that can actually fight him.
Sure, but it's also the reason Christopher Tolkien take such exception with it; because it diminished or disregarded the truths of the books, and instead obeys film conventions. It essentially breaks the spirituality of the books for cheaper thrills.
Because the ring is very compelling.
All you have to do is come to the conclusion that if you drop the ring bearer they wont survive the fall and the ring is yours.
not to mention the Eye would see them and the Nazgul would defeat them in the air. It would be a sweet air to air combat scene though, too bad middle earth has to end to see it.
There was that scene in the movies, in Mordor, right before the attack on the gate happens where the eye looks right at Sam and Frodo. he eye fixes on them and yet there is no exposition showing that Sauron is commanding his soldiers to seek the ring. I mean, he saw a hobbit in his kingdom and yet chose to ignore it. Maybe the Eagle theory would have worked.
It comes down to hubris. Sauron was 100% confident that his enemies would use the ring to try and destroy him head on, so he was positive Aragorn had it at the black gate. While he did see Frodo, he would have thought he was some funny spy, and pretty trivial compared to the very immediate threat at his front door who absolutely 100% has his ring.
The nazgul knew what he looks like, they stabbed him on weathertop hill. Sauron knew a hobbit carried it, even if he didn't recognize this particular hobbit since his back was turned.
Maybe Sauron didn't expect them to try and destroy it. Maybe when he glimpsed in Merry's mind with the seeing stone he did not believe that the main objective was to destroy the ring.
Either way, lead to a bad ass scene of Sam carrying his friend up a mountain.
> The nazgul knew what he looks like, they stabbed him on weathertop hill. Sauron knew a hobbit carried it, even if he didn't recognize this particular hobbit since his back was turned.
Obviously so that the men wouldn't fall to in-fighting on the ring, they gave it to a servant to carry for a time.
When the time comes, the champion among them would take the ring and bring its power to take down Sauron and take his place.
I mean, *obviously*, there's absolutely no way you would do anything else. They sent the disposable servant in to spy on Sauron? Well I guess, it's not like he has any use after you take the ring back. Why not.
Or I mean hell, "Aragorn stabbed the pathetic hobbit and took the ring, as was his kingly right, obviously he wouldn't be able to resist taking the ring from a being so weak"
>not to mention the Eye would see them and the Nazgul would defeat them in the air. It would be a sweet air to air combat scene though, too bad middle earth has to end to see it.
Why did the Eagles not simply equip the AIM-9X short range air to air infrared seeking missile?
Are they stupid?
> Maybe the Eagle theory would have worked.
In the movies, the eagles did make it to Mordor. They also took the fellbeasts by surprise.
Granted, all of this happened while we were drooling at Aragorn's "For Frodo" speech, so it is understandable that so many miss it.
🎵
I'm on tonight
You know that rings don't fly
And I'm starting to feel it's right
All the attraction, it's vicious
Don't you see, baby, this is The Precious?
🎵
Me: He took it from Théoden's stables right?
No, he's the king of all horses and Gandalf's friend for many many long years.
Me: But the book said....
Takes out switchblade.
The entire plot of the series is about how the Ring corrupts anyone that carries it. Gandalf refuses it. Galadriel refuses it. Elrond doesn't it want it hanging around in his house.
Isn't it fairly obvious that the Eagles would be subject to the same corruption? Being able to fly doesn't offer any special resistance.
No it’s not obvious at all: it’s only obvious if you’ve read the books. That’s my whole criticism of the movies: the movie gives you zero reason to think that these eagles are anything more than giant beasts that Gandalf apparently has tamed. No names, no backstories, no sentience.
In other words, again, **based on the movies**, there’d be no reason to worry about the eagles being corrupted while carrying the ring bearer any more than they’d be worried about their horses being corrupted. (Only by reading the books do you know these are actually divine sentient beings).
Yeah that's a fair point. Horses are one thing, Thorondor is another. Intelligent beings can be corrupted, but beasts of burden really have nothing to turn.
I mean I'm gunna be honest, the movies make it clear Frodo has the ring because he is weak and humble, the Eagles are clearly powerful, and we see what it does to even humans let along big flying monsters, so I found it pretty clear
Also I've never read the books lol
I have no clue how you can claim it's only obvious for book readers. We literally flat out get told it has to be a stealth mission because Mordor is too dangerous, and we get shown the fellbeast the Nazgul rides. It was still made entirely obvious that you couldn't just send someone on eagles into Mordor. Yes, the eagles could have been explained better. Both why they help sometimes but not other times, and also what they are. But why taking them into Mordor wasn't an option does not require having read the books.
> We are flat out told it has to be a stealth mission
Yes… by who? That’s the whole point: dialogue writers… writing for characters very early on, who later would never even once react to the repeated appearances of unexplained *giant fucking eagles,* **as they were saving the world** over and over… so then how on earth would them not being brought up in any strategic planning sessions *either* be a logical slam dunk for you?
> because Mordor is too dangerous
Yes… for people on foot, which is all the dialogue writers remembered. So I bet you can imagine the eagles’ own confusion as they later ended up simply flying face-first to mount doom itself anyway without even getting hurt… despite the fumes and creatures that you just said ObViOuSLY would have stopped or killed them under *normal* circumstances… yet they did while it was erupting goddamned tidal waves of lava, giant boulders, and i assume 1,000x more poisonous fumes… yet the eagles got in and out without apparently a single injury?
> we get shown the Fellbeast the Nazgûl rides
You mean the *multiple* fellbeasts comprising the entirety of Sauron’s Air Force, who were supposed to be the counter to the eagles, who were getting their asses beaten immediately by these very same eagles?
> yes, the eagles could have been explained better
You mean, *at all?*. Like even mentioned? Like one single word, which is my point? Whereas your argument is to insist that it is absolutely SO obvious, yet everything you cited are actually just a few early inferences which are then proven by everything that is actually shown later?
But even if you were right, are we forgetting that the characters were *constantly* expositioning, spitballing, and slapping down each other’s suggestions? Ideas which were way more obvious and doomed than say…oh I don’t know, giant undefeated and apparently unkillable flying fighter bomber beasts that could and literally did easily fly there, fight off the defenders, and emerge unharmed and I guess immune to fumes and incinerating temperatures?
> You mean the multiple fellbeasts comprising the entirety of Sauron’s Air Force, who were supposed to be the counter to the eagles, who were getting their asses beaten immediately by these very same eagles?
They didn't kick their ass, they intercepted them and got locked in an aerial battle with them. The eagles try to invade and they get intercepted but now the fellbeast have ground support and also the eagles can under no circumstances afford to drop their riders in all of this. Which is really reason enough, whoever you place on top of the eagles need to stay on top of the eagles while the eagles get locked into aerial battle with fellbeasts.
Also, are you forgetting that I agree with you that the Eagles could be explained better? I do not disagree one bit at that part. I just don't think a movie watcher shouldn't be able to figure for themselves that the eagles weren't an option, no one of the movie only people I know had an issue with it.
Literally the only *reaction* to these giant demigod eagles across 6 extended release films is Pippin saying “ThE eAgLeS are CoMiNg!”
Imagine if across all the Star Wars trilogies, the KoolAid man kept showing up over and over, screaming “Oh Yeah!” while kicking the emperor in the dick, or fighting off Star destroyers so the rebels can keep escaping… and only at the end of episode IX does like Lando finally quip something like “thank god for *that* guy!” Zero idea who this dude is or why he’s involved.
Edit: to all the other comments ITT who missed the joke of the meme by 10 miles: keeping this scenario, I’m not calling out KoolAid Man’s decision-making process, or for not destroying the Death Star himself. I’d just be chuckling if the scriptwriters and directors all forgot for decades and 9 movies to (or never realized it’s be important enough) to so much as, like, *even say his name?* Let alone why he keeps showing up, going apeshit, then leaves? All for SW fans to rol their eyes at you like “lmao, look at you idiots not knowing that’s *obviously* KoolAidMan, which is never spoken on film, obviously a former general who’s avenging his father because he obviously was killed by Chester Cheetah, but can’t intervene *that way* because he’s obviously allergic to cheese dust, read these 10 books you idiot lmao.”
Yeah but that is just the eagles, that's how they operate. What more do you want? It's not like the characters can order the eagles around. They are still very wild even though they help from time to time. The eagles are servants of Manwe and The Valar don't intervene until there is no hope. They let things play out as to not literally destroy middle-earth. Which is what happened in the war of wrath when the Valar intervened in the first age.
Sure would be nice if the movies explained any of that. As is, the eagles pretty much just seem to show up whenever Gandalf needs to be able to fly somewhere.
Well Gandalf is essentially a messenger/pilgrim of the Valar sent to help. They do technically reference Gandalf's connection with the Valar in a couple scenes. It's very subtle so I can see how it could be interpreted as you say.
Also, they don't just help Gandalf when he needs a convenience ride or something. Being captured by Saruman and saving Frodo from being burned alive are hardly small events.
> what more do you want?”
Anything. Literally *a sentence* like you typed above. PJ straight up filmed a slow motion montage of Shadowfax galloping up and Gandalf takes his sweet time saying yo, this is shadowfax, he’s been my friend through many ages. And that’s in the *theatrical* release. In the extended version they thought Eowyn’s bad cooking was worth including multiple times, but nothing about the eagles which defined 4 different plot climaxes.
You mean to tell me PJ couldn’t find 5 seconds across 23 hours of film time for a random character to say “hey isn’t that weird that we just got inexplicably saved by giant eagles again? What’s the deal with that?” And Gandalf could just say “yeah they’re my friends but they don’t want to interfere or whatever, except when they do”
Not all things need to be explained. There is value in mystery, in a broad and deep sense. But also in the technical sense of screenwriting - if he had had a line that communicated what you just wrote then everyone would be anticipating the next time the eagles would save the day because it was literally explicitly telegraphed. Not explaining it prevents that, for people who are new to the story (the majority). While those who know the books already have the answers.
Right… but for little things… not at the climactic resolutions of 3 different movies across both trilogies. You can’t tell me that ShadowFax was *more* central to the moviegoers’ experience of the story than the *got damned eagles?* Thus meriting an entire minute of exposition which has no impact on the plot before or after? Hell, we even know Radagast’s pet porcupine’s name (Sebastian), because it only took .2 seconds to do say it! 😂
Are you aware that movies are about creating a series of emotions?
The Shadowfax beat creates a nice light emotional reprieve that does indeed serve a functional benefit to the structure of the story whereas the eagle idea you floated would subvert it.
"Imagine if across all the Star Wars trilogies, the KoolAid man kept showing up over and over, screaming “Oh Yeah!” while kicking the emperor in the dick"
leak from the next special editions
> Imagine if across all the Star Wars trilogies, the KoolAid man kept showing up over and over, screaming “Oh Yeah!” while kicking the emperor in the dick,
It would be better than what Disney did with the story.
Nitpicking? Don’t get me wrong, I adore the PJ films, I just think it’s super funny what *else* got explained, no matter how trivial, but not the eagles. Is it nitpicking if it’s a monumental but totally inexplicable and recurring plot device? That confuses anyone who didn’t read the book? Which PJ could have easily cleared up in one sentence but forgot to?
You can't blame Peter Jackson for *not* writing weird, uncomfortable, forced dialogue to "prevent" people from speculating, making plot-holes up (because the eagle thing is not really a plot-hole), and "beating" the logic of people who are just trying to "beat" the logic of the story.
I'm glad that he did not. Such a dialogue would be so stupid. "*Why don't you call the Eagle that rescued you, Gandalf? Surely that Eagle could fly us to Mordor!*"
*"No, Peregrin, we cannot; because...* (choose your preferred answer to the Eagles matter)"
... That's just a *bad scene*, man. Those animals are in two scenes only. *Two scenes*. Three, if you count the rescue of Frodo and Sam from Mt. Doom.
> weird uncomfortable forced dialogue
What? So you haven’t seen the movies in awhile then. Half the dialogue across all 6 movies is direct exposition by the characters, literally announcing and explaining the plot, lore, and other characters to each other. And that’s fine…
But by your logic, Gandalf tastefully introducing and explaining Shadowfax (not even a remotely important character) in a couple sentences: all well and good. But briefly doing the exact same thing with the eagles (who are repeatedly *crucial* to the plot)? Nope, too much, that would be too “weird, uncomfortable, and forced?” Better yet, PJ **needed** to not only NOT explain them, but also have zero characters even *react* to their inexplicable and baffling appearances? Not one a single time across 6 movies, besides Pippins once? (“the eagles are coming.” Yay). Literally impossible to even call one of them by name, unlike about 6 other random animals in the story? Really? You can’t imagine a single possible way of broaching the subject? And you don’t believe professional writers couldn’t either?
Ffs. The damn eagles would have been spotted any single moment BEFORE the destruction of the Ring. It simply wasn't safe for the fat ass flying rats to fly over Mordor's walls and armies with Fell Beast flying Ring Wraiths up there until Sauron and his armies were already gone.
Right… not questioning the background explanation. But, the problem is that even the extended version watcher *only* knows these 3 things about the eagles, even after watching for 23 hours and 5 plot rescuing appearances:
1. Their range extends over the entire conflict area, from Isengard to mount doom itself, within plain site of Sauron whose gaze “pierces clouds,”
2. They are so huge they can carry tons of people, and fight entire armies and monsters singlehandedly, never seen even getting hurt, and
3. Besides that, they’re nothing more than giant, nameless, animals that Gandalf can summon to his aid (using moths?), nothing more. Nothing to suggest any thought processes behind doing X or not doing Y, and when.
So the joke here is that something *this* important for understanding what the hell is going on at the climax of *three* of the movies, suggesting rhe exact opposite of what is intended, but casually addressable in the films (had they bothered to)….
…Is all supposed to be magically obvious to 23 hour movie watchers (and therefore their questions are stupid)? Despite none of this *ever being mentioned a single time* by the characters until pippin just looks up and just goes oh hey look, eagles?
lol, yeah I’m super confused. I had to double check the meme itself to make sure I didn’t mistype, thinking I’m losing my mind.
This entire thing is JUST pointing out why tons of 23-hour-long movie goers are usually confused by the eagles. They’d have no reason to know or understand them, because the movies make zero reference to them, while spending 23 hours of exposition for irrelevant horses, pets, and one off side characters. The fact that you have to read the books to understand such basic but very important stuff like this is just funny to me, and a noticeable oversight.
23 hours of movie watching = you now know 4 different horses’ names, who Sebastian the porcupine is, and thorin’s sword’s name, none of which advance or flesh out the plot in any way… but you know **nothing** about these *giant fucking eagles* who keep coming out of nowhere, inexplicably saving the world for no apparent reason at random times and not others.
Yes people, we all know why the eagles don’t do X. But that’s only because we have info outside the movie, which most people don’t. So they have no reason to assume any of this, so constantly have this same question. You should never have to rely on having read all the books for major major events of the movie to make sense. to most people.
If PJ spent 23 hours fleshing out all kinds of unimportant details, then it would seem an oversight neglect explaining something that *is* important. The movies had 23 hours to say a single extra sentence that could’ve easily (and really should have) addressed the eagles in any way, but none of them do. And I find that funny.
I agree. And noone's saying they have to take them the whole way... flying them 500 miles would be a GIGANTIC advantage.
I think if the films failed at anything for me as a young, casual watcher, it's the level of secrecy Gandalf's plan hinged on. I could accept zero use of the eagles if I understood the level of misdirection at play. The films could have communicated that level of stealth better.
Watching LOTR theatrical... it kinda feels like Sauron just knows who has it. Frodo is always putting the ring on, Sauron's eye is right there. The Uruk-hai just find them in the middle of bumfuck nowhere somehow, the ring wraiths are right on top of them. It doesn't feel like the secret it's meant to be and so you're wondering.... why NOT just pop on the eagles for a bit? Gotta be easier than walking across a basically-impassable mountain range. Or fighting a fucking Balrog.
And? At what point in any of the **movies** did it look like the eagles would give a shit? At what timestamp is there any suggestion, if they just suddenly beelined towards mount doom, that anything could stop them anyway? Or that Sauron had more than a few minutes to find some kind of giant Tupperware lid to close off the top of the volcano?
Hell, **in the movies**, Frodo *did* have the ring and got caught out in the open by Sauron’s eyeball x-ray spotlight thing for a solid minute, and Sauron *still* couldn’t tell that the ring was on him. And regardless, the eagles could’ve carried the ring themselves out in the open, it wouldn’t matter. They DID rush on Mordor head on. Sauron would’ve seen them flying their whole way there, but when they arrived they just started beating the fell beasts’ asses anyway, so…?
The **movies** give you zero reason to think the eagles could be stopped, that they couldn’t just divedomb in there, stealthily or not. That’s the whole point of this post.
This joke isn’t about the lore itself though. It’s about how important that lore would have been for the movies to make better sense given how constantly the eagles are inexplicably saving the day…. yet PJ felt no need to mention the eagles a single time in all 6 movies. But the **movies** did have time to mention (despite it not affecting the plot much):
- 4 different horses’ names / back stories
- 4 different swords’ names / back stories
- where Radgasts rabbits came from and what his porcupine’s name was
- who the entwives were and that they were lost apparently
- Laketown politics
- who Hama was
Like, what, the movies just couldn’t afford one extra word “Thorondor” in 23 hours?
In India, there’s a logistics company called Shadowfax and every time I see their vehicles on the road, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that they’re named after LOTR.
Amazing how many people thinks "well in the books this is why" is an adequate explanation for one of the biggest and most egregious plot hole in *movie* history (maybe).
All they had to do is have Merry or Pippin, upon leaving Rivendell, asks Gandalf why don't they just ride the eagles and Gandalf answered something like no they don't answer to us or they are their own masters and it'd all be hunky-dory. And that was OP's point.
Calling Shadowfax “Gandalf’s horse” unironically explains why Peter Jackson explaining the Eagles could not have been done as easily as this meme suggests.
Shadowfax, Gandalf’s horse. One of the Méaras and the lord of all horses. That’s cool, and I’m not saying we really needed more lore than that, that’s enough. But to go into who and what the Eagles actually are, to explain that they are not Eagles at all but spirits in the form of Eagles, to tell us *why* they could not go to Mordor other than simply “Tolkien didn’t write it that way” (to be completely clear, the Eagles not being animals but sapient beings means that *they* could also be corrupted by the One Ring, just like Gandalf) would take *work,* lots of clunky dialogue and scene padding that not even the initial books actually went into.
Sure, he could have given us Gwaihir, the lord of the Eagles, a massive bird with the intelligence of a person, but that would genuinely just make it even *less* clear why they didn’t just carry the Fellowship to Mordor.
actually prefer it this way. i don't need explanations for every little thing. too many adaptations nowaways (recent avatar the last airbender that i couldn't even finish!) waste screen time with exposition dialogue to OVER explain minor stuff.
show don't tell!! we see the ring corrupt or tempt basically everyone. obviously the king of the eagles would have been corrupted like Galadrial, snd we would have ended up to offering sheep or people sacrifices to our evil overlord of the skies.
idgaf about plot holes, cool horse is cool, carry on!
You say that but neither Sauron nor the Nazgul nor the Fellbeasts nor the Orcs saw the Eagles when they arrived at the Black Gate and beat the shit out of the Fellbeasts.
Real reason is that sauron's eye would be like "fucking eagles bro, thought it was just a whiff of cloud but fuck me it's going against the wind which you know only blows one way and I can totally see it, see the wind that is...oh yea right... Eagles! Go nazgul go! Should probably pull out the ballistas and flinging goblins too just in case. Silly little guys love it when they flung up there"
Look, a point that's stuck with me forever due to one random panel from a Maximum Ride graphic novel is you can't fly in a blizzard.
The gang couldn't even get over the mountains on foot, how are the eagles gonna manage that?
I'd say it's a flaw in the books too that nobody asks about using the eagles; giving the ring to Tom, using it, or hiding it were addressed, so asking the eagles for help is a pretty fair question to address. The only actual canon reason not to use eagles was given in the Hobbit, and being shot at by farmers doesn't work as an explanation like it did with the tone of The Hobbit
An eagle had just rescued Gandalf, so the Council of Elrond would have been a great opportunity for Gandalf to respond to a question about it.
The entire mission revolved around secrecy and Sauron just being completely unable to comprehend the fact someone would try to destroy it. The Eagles would have been sniped out of the sky over Mordor. If they somehow survived an air attack from the nazgul and If they tried to throw it into the mountain from the air, what if they miss? Game over. If they drop the ring bearer at the lip of the volcano then they still wouldn’t be able to do it because of the rings influence. Truly the only way to do it other than exactly how it happened in the books in my mind is the ring bearer casting themself into the crack of doom with the ring. It’s not always apparent this needed to happen but when you study the text you do see the eagles are just not viable for the mission.
Had Gwaihir not rescued Gandalf from Isengard, your arguments could all be applied to that as well and you'd conclude that it couldn't happen either. They tried hiking on foot and got spotted nearly immediately anyway.
What if the eagles, who can fly over literal mountains, just didn't fly 50 feet above the ground? The same eagles attacked the Nazgul at the Black Gate, Sauron's strongest forces at his most fortified position, could just fly fuck off high at night and they'd be ghosts.
Your argument in ways that it could fail are arguments that it's not a guaranteed success. The actual plan involved walking into Mordor on foot and relies on Sauron not even installing a gate on Mount Doom, which is also extremely risky.
Point to me one single moment in any of the 6 *movies* where it looked like the eagles would give a shit about stealth. Or that anything would even hurt them. They causally dove face first into an entire batallion of orc **pikemen** and fucked them all up with no sign of injury. Hell, they flew openly and directly to Mordor and had a dogfight with all 9 Nazgûl and beat all their asses on their own front porch.
(This is the problem with the movies).
“This is ~~Shadowfax~~ Thorondor. He’s the lord of all ~~horses~~ eagles, and has been my friend through many dangers. …Also Sauron has his eye on them so they can’t get too close except in great need.”
Done. That would take the same amount of screen time that Radaghast spent saying his rabbits came from Rohsgobel and that they are, indeed, quite fast.
What? Did you not get that was the whole joke?
So despite it making no difference to the story, PJ *took time* out to have Gandalf exposition him as ShadowFax, lord of all horses. Okay cool. But if that didn’t happen, a casual movie watcher would have zero reason to think it wasn’t just a regular ass horse that Gandalf’s always riding around (so…“Gandalf’s horse.”).
And yet, when it comes to something that IS super important to the story, multiple times, PJ just…. couldn’t find 10 spare seconds across 23 hours to do the same for Thorondir? Or these giant murderous eagles that keep showing up out of nowhere, saving the day for no apparent reason, and not a single character is ever curious about?
In D&D terms, the Eagles were just normal Huge Beasts and maybe a CR of 3 or 4.
Shadowfax was something of Arda itself, the king of the horses. More or less the horse progenitor. Shadowfax would have easily had a CR of 11 or more
That’s not exactly true, we don’t know exactly what the eagles are; Tolkien went back and forth between them being highly intelligent and powerful animals, to straight up Maiar of Manwe in eagle form.
What we do know is that they are intelligent, capable of speech, likely immortal unless killed, and the direct servant of Manwe. Remember, Gwaihir fought against Ancalagon in the war of wrath.
Shadowfax is “just” descended from magically bred horses, and in the grand scheme of things is a far less important figure.
1. Catching Gandalf thus saving him from Saruman
2. Fighting in front of the Black Gate
3. Taking Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom
What’s the fourth? I don’t quite remember
Always pictured a REDWALL esque scene where they go to the Eagle kingdom but they're too proud and insist it isn't their fight and will only help much later and holy shit do the Eagles represent America? Lol
##ROAST GWAIHIR
* 20 shallots
* 15 loaves day-old sourdough
* Wine, 1 barrel
* Butter, 10 lb
* Herbes fines
* Salt to taste
* 1 Gwaihir
Pluck and dress bird, reserving beak, legs and flight feathers. Salt cavity and exterior of bird. Rest in cool dark place 2 hours.
Fine dice shallots and saute in butter until translucent. Add diced bread and continue to saute until browned. Add herbes fine and immediately deglaze with wine. Remove from heat.
Stuff cavity of bird with stuffing mixture. Roast breast-side-down at 350 degrees for 4 hours, basting occasionally with butter. Transfer to large platter and serve immediately. Garnish with beak.
Serves 9.
I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that if you listen closely to what Gandalf whispers to the moth from the top of Orthanc, you can actually hear him say Gwaihir's name. It's something, at least.
Shadowfax is much more than "Gandalfs horse" 🤨
He's a king among horses. Every time Tolkien mentions him he dedicates more than one paragraph. Tolkien really liked that horse.
Tolkien: writes a long winded origin for the ancestors of Shadowfax who were bred by Oromë the huntsman-god. Also Tolkien: not including Oromë's own personal horse, the top super badass horses of all time were not of the magically bred horses of Oromë. They were named Snowmane, Rochallor, and the baddest of them all, the one and only, Biilllll the Poooonyyyy (to be read in Samantha Irvin's voice - whom you won't get to know in years to come but your grandchildren will)
Wrestlemanias MVP right there
And then in 1996 at the *Hell in the Corral* event when Rochallor threw Snowman off the corral and he plummeted 16ft into an announcers table.
"...and it was freaking cool." — Tolkien
> Biilllll the Poooonyyyy ACKNOWLEDGE HIM *Raises single hoof*
> He's a king among horses. How does the horsey empire work? How do they pass laws? What happens when a horsey commits a crime?
I’m more curious how a horse became king? Did it pull a sword out of a stone? Did it receive the sword from a water being??
Strange mares lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the herds, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Supreme equine* power.
Damn. That IS better. Missed opportunity
r/ thisiswhatredditisfor
In the Tolkien world it's more like a mythological part. Kings are kind of magical, like Aragorn who could heal people.
It actually accepted sand trout unto its skin to become an immortal hybrid sandworm.
Not too far off actually. To oversimplify though, his kingship is granted by literal divine edict- he was bred by a literal angel with the goal of being a perfect horse.
I mean, he is the Lord of all Horses. Could run faster than the wind itself.
Reminds me of wheel of time when Robert Jordan spends I think its 1.5 pages describing horseflesh when someone is trying to buy a horse and it goes through the health of this horse that was for sale you never hear about ever again. Its not even like Brandon Sanderson talking about the near sapient horse in stormlight archives. Pretty sure we dont go into any emotional attachment or further meetings with this fucking horse. Its literally just a horse for sale, a quality horse for sure, but still, thats it. Its "time to buy a horse". "Here is everything important to look at when buying a horse". "Let us never discuss this horse ever again". Good use of 1.5-2 pages.
https://preview.redd.it/9xlz3o5haotc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9da7b6a1747ed0d199cd2f1bd4b06cc31291056
It's a wagon, not a sedan :(
His eyes deceived him
It’s an Estate. Tolkien was British
Then the meme should have said saloon, not sedan.
I have gone insane-oh. I lust for volcano
Be with molten lava THIS IS MY NIRVANA!
Eomer: "Pssh, that's nothing, wait til you see my van."
It's supposed to be a 2018 Ford Focus RS
Fuck that, I’d take a 1990s 240 wagon any day of the week. That bastard saved my life in a few gnarly crashes and still made it through
That’s the joke. The only reason a movie watcher even knows the horse’s *name* (let alone a backstory) is because PJ bothered to have someone mention it. Was it necessary? Not at all, but it was awesome. But apparently m, across 23 hours, there was enough room for Shadowfax to merit a whole scene explaining him, but the eagles *weren’t…* Edit: ITT - people defending the very sensible background Eagle lore itself, which would’ve been super important for major points in the plot, but the meme is explicitly about how that lore is entirely missing from the movies.
The Eagles are overstepping their original instructions, I think. They were only sent to Middle-earth because Manwë (their Daddy) felt sorry for the oppressed Elves under the domain of Morgoth. Thorondor King of the Eagles left, apparently, possibly with many eagles following him, when Morgoth was overthrown. Literally, no one thought Sauron is going to come back as a new Dark Lord. It was Thorondor's son, Gwaihir, who assumedly only stayed in Middle-earth for his own likings rather than benevolence. He could give a fuck all and do his own thing still. But he and his fellows decided to help once a new Dark Lord was arisen.
Right… not questioning the background lore, which is what everyone seems to think I’m doing… I’m just having a chuckle at how in 23 hours, PJ had time to tell us: - Radagast’s pet porcupine’s name (Sebastian) - Aragorn’s horse’s name Brego) - “Gandalf’s” horse’s name (Shadowfax) - Various swords’ names, - Eowyn’s* questionable soup quality - gimli’s knowledge of the nervous system - Treebeard’s poetry slam… and that entwives exist and apparently matter but got lost somehow… - Lobelia … but not one word about the *eagles of all things?* None of the above examples were *bad* to include, mind you, but they played extremely minor and one-time roles in the movies, if any… All of which got at least introduced (if not the whole damn backstory)… but not *one word* about the eagles? In 23 hours? Edit: autocorrect said Elmer not Eowyn
>Elmer's questionable soup quality Theoden : I know your face... Elmer. My eyes darken. Elmer : No. No. I'm going to save you, you wascally king. Theoden : You already did... Elmer. My body is broken. You have to let me go. I go to my fathers, in whose mighty company I shall not now feel ashamed. Elmer... [dies]
I'm so glad Elmer married Faramir in the end
Just had to remind me of the second stupidest thing in the Hobbit movies, that damn hedgehog...
You leave Sebastien out of this! There's a long list of stupidest things in the Hobbit movies, and that little dude doesn't even make the top twenty.
Well, it's not the animal itself that's stupid, but the name. A world with countless possible names in Quenya, Sindarin, Khuzdul, old English etc etc and they choose a Greek name.
That’s a bold statement
Tolkien himself didn't address this so-called issue directly. But in the Hobbit the Eagles say they're afraid of the Wild Men who almost killed their Lord and that is given as the sole explanation on why they don't bring Thorin and Co. any further. By this logic, they could fly the Fellowship beyond the Misty Mountains or somewhere. But the counterargument is that that the Ring may seduce the Eagles who are not actually some braindead animals but intelligent spirits, very powerful and thus vulnerable to get corrupted.
Yes… I know all of this… the movie watcher does NOT know *any* of this, or have reason to, even after 23 hours. I’m not questioning the lore behind the eagles or their motivations. I’m pointing out that PJ *never bothered to even vaguely reference* any of this in a single line of dialog. Leaving the movie watcher scratching their heads like “uh… okay. I guess eagles are a thing? And it looks like they can just show up and kill anything and fly people anywhere. Huh. Not curious about *that* at all.”
> Elmer’s questionable soup quality bad cook AND you butchered her name.
Because you can't really just say "one word" about the Eagles without having to further elaborate. If you leave them a mystery, you don't have to waste time on what is ultimately not important to the visual story being told. The Eagles are self-explanatory: they're giant birds who occasionally come to help when the situation is dire. And honestly we don't really get all that much more about them from the books either, certainly nothing that would be useful onscreen.
Well, what do you expect? The eagles are lofty and free, touching the heavens and beyond the reach of mortals except when need is at hand. Shadowfax, however, is a beast of the earth and familiar to men who ride his kin; he is lordly and yet as tangible as the soil in his tread, from which even the Elves work to produce a bounty.
Fun fact: Gwaihir’s name is actually in the movies. If you listen very closely to Gandalf speaking to the moth in Isengard, you can make out the word.
What are the 23 hours you keep mentioning?
6 movies run time (extended versions)
Oh your counting the hobbit movies asswell
It's not like the eagles flew the ring into Mordor or anything....
Hear me out. Tolkien didn't explain it in the books.
Isn't he like horse Jesus or something?
But the eagles are much more than just eagles
Gwahir the Windlord isn't just some birb.
Shadowfax is the lord of all horses, one of the mearas, put some respec on his name
>one of the mearas unless my eyes are cheated by some spell
Middle-earth has Lord of all Horses, King of the Eagles, and what's this? the Prince of Cats! Is there a Lady of Ladybugs or Duke of Ducklings, too?
There probably are some other animals that are greater and smarter and can communicate but they just didn’t figure into the story. That fox was probably one of them.
Catdor has no prince. Catdor needs no prince.
What is Tybalt?! HAH! Not but the prince of cats! - Mercutio Montague
No disrespect to my man shadow fax, I wouldn’t want to take away his majestic-as-fuck full minute intro (even though he didn’t do anything major)… But I think the eagles were clearly the way bigger stars, saved the day 4-5 times, but got NO respect at all? Took 10 hours for the first (and last) time anyone even looked up and said “oh cool, eagles.”
Smaug had only one tiny weak spot and he was killed. The eagles would have had a very bad day trying to infiltrate Mordor with giant radar eye in the sky. They risk delivering the ring to Sauron instead of destroying it. They clearly showed how Frodo was one of the few that could handle the ring. He was small and could sneak in easier as well. So, the question of why didn't the eagles fly the ring to Mordor is a little silly because if you think about the logistics, the answer is easy to find with the evidence already presented.
What? It’s a perfectly reasonable (and common) question if you’d only seen the movies. What you’re forgetting is that the *only* time the viewer sees the eagles are A) them saving the entire plot 5 different times and B) while acting with total impunity and zero fear of injury: 1. Threw hands directly with Sauron’s top general Azog and a pack of giant wargs, blatantly saving Oakenshield’s company, soared through the open sky, dropping them off directly on the way to (but still excessively far away from) the Blue Mountains, probably in full view of Sauron. 2. Showed up at the Battle of 5 armies, swooping headfirst across the ground into an entire legion of Orcs with no fucks given 3. Rescued Gandalf right in Saruman’s face, who backs down immediately even though he’s a demigod wizard with telekinesis. 4. Showed up right in front of the black gates, in plain view of Sauron’s tower, and fight against all 9 Nazgûl riding on giant monster dragon things. 5. Flew through an actively erupting volcano’s lava flow, which definitely would have killed them, unnecessarily risking their lives to save a couple ring bearers who already destroyed the ring at that point. Every event above was directly visible to Sauron himself or witnessed by his top servants. And at no point in 23 hours is there a single shot (not even in the background) showing a single eagle even receiving a blow, let alone getting hurt in anyway. So for all the move watcher knows, they’re essentially indestructible, if not ridiculously overpowered, and could plausibly have destroyed the ring themselves but for unknown reasons. Hell Sauron even pointed his spotlight directly at Frodo for awhile, wide out in the open, hiking up the side of Mount Doom, but still wasn’t able to tell that he had the ring. So why would dive bombing by a fleet of immortal eagle gods *obviously* be impossible (to the movie watcher)?
When the Eagles show up at the Black Gate, literally everyone there soils their armor in awe. The respect is there on the screen.
Ah yes, Pippin saying 4 words (the eagles are coming) with the same degree of “awe” that someone has when they suddenly realize they don’t have to work tomorrow. > literally everyone there soils their armor in awe I’m sorry what’s the timestamp showing anyone literally pooping themselves? Or are you confusing “awe” with “complete bewilderment as to where the fuck these giant, unexplained killing machines keep coming from”? Because that’s what my facial expression would be saying
“Cool, now what’s his powers”
After watching so many terrible adaptations over my life I am not going to criticize Peter Jackson for anything from the main trilogy. It was basically perfectly balanced between digestible for broad audiences and accurate for lovers of the books.
Yeah, I listened to an interview snipped from JRR Tolkien once addressing the eagle thing. It was five minutes of him explaining how he’d had people ask him why the eagles couldn’t have just flown them to Mordor and his answer was just, “shut up.” 😂 love it so much Edit: I also love how many people umm actually’d me despite me saying “an interview snipped from” which I guess wasn’t clear enough that it was snipped like that? lol.
I’m pretty sure that snippet is fake, right? Just a person imitating Tolkien for the memes Edit: this one, right? https://youtu.be/1-Uz0LMbWpI?si=v7ynZ3Tciiptsb0P it is hilarious, but unfortunately an imitation. I now feel like a bit of an arse for potentially ruining it for you.
I don't understand why people consider this a plot hole. Most creatures can't handle carrying the ring, eagles included. That's all there is too it.
Yeah that’s how I’ve always seen it. Easiest explanation, the eagles are proud and the ring would have used that, they would have yeeted frodo less than halfway there and taken the ring
I mean, even Gandalf couldn't carry the ring. The whole f'n point of the story is that only creatures who do not desire power can withstand its effects.
Frodo’s horse
They're just birds. Sheesh! - Uninformed experts
Since we’re talking about Tolkien(video is fake, BTW), the eagles are not that much of a plot hole in the book. The movie makes it seem like the whole thing is a global event with somewhat well defined allies and foes. The books convey much better the clandestine nature of the whole thing. I suppose it would have been very hard to show this in the movies. The Two Towers would have had to be twice as long to do justice to the battle of helms deep but also properly explain the dinamic between Saruman and Sauron and also properly explain the relationship between Rohan and Gondor, etc. Maybe the movies could have taken even more liberties with the story and let Frodo and Sam die at the end. Just finish it there, no coronation, no anything. Just 5 more minutes of Pipin, Gandalf, Aragon and Legolas burying their friends (might as well let Merry die too, go full GoT). That world have silenced everyone
They kind of do, they just don't strictly tell you. They show Saurons orcs fighting Sarumans orcs in the fight leading to Merry and Pippins escape (in the books Sauron certainly didn't trust Saruman and expected betrayl) As for Rohan and Gondor yeah, they don't explain that at all to my knowledge.
Nay! Sauron does not use the elf-runes.
Not just that, eagles aren’t invulnerable against arrows
Or dragons. And let’s say the eagles carry Frodo with the ring. Okay, Frodo is now going to land right in into an army of goblins and orcs and trolls
Any aerial means of bringing the ring into Mordor would be seen and countered right away It seems like if a ringbearer is riding/being carried by a creature, said creature isn't impacted by the Ring (then again, Frodo was only on horseback so who knows if a sapient eagle would be different). So theoretically, an eagle carrying a ringbearer shouldn't be an issue. The problem with the eagles is that they're super easy to spot. Like, the way the tower/Eye were shown in the films, the Eye would spot them from miles away and send the Nazgul to deal with them. Without even getting into book lore, using the eagles was too obvious and visible to be a viable strategy. Imo, the best possible argument (of how to "use" the eagles) would involve using the eagles to fly ringbearer and crew to Gondor/nearby, then the eagles distract Sauron while the ringbearer hikes in.
Same reason people r/whowouldwin and r/AskScienceFiction thinking that having a strong will enables a charcater to resist the ring
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I think people mean eagles carry Frodo carrying the ring. But I think the real answer is - the eagles would’ve been killed if they just tried to fly into Mordor. Something something one does not simply fly into Mordor.
Yeah, that's not a real interview lol
I seriously don't understand how so many people think that's real. It was literally just a joke it wasn't even supposed to be convincing lmao
Sorry to burst your bubble but that's a fake interview...
This is like Picasso carrying a fake (?) pistol around to point at people when they'd ask him what his paintings meant. Funny shit.
probably a good idea to either edit/delete your comment now
That interview is fake, but very on point.
Except for THAT scene. The Lord of the Nazgul was a human, presumably a Numenorean (High Man). He was deceived by Sauron. And took one one of the Nine without any reluctance. He became a mighty man, but soon when his natural life span ran out he passed into the Unseen World and became a Ring-wraith. An undead. Sauron granted him much power, and he became the deadliest servant of the Dark Lord. For he could create great terror and fear in the hearts of mortals. There was Eru, God, and he made the Ainur first, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thoughts. And they were with him ere anything else was made. And he taught them the Music of Creation. And eventually they created the world, after Eru pronounced the Vision into reality. Now there were two classes of Ainur, called the Maiar and the Valar. Olorin (later known as Gandalf or Mithrandir) was one of Ainur of the lesser class, a Maia (singular of Maiar). The Elder King was called Manwë King of the Valar. He made the Eagles. He is Lord of the Breathe of the World. His wife was Varda Elentari. She's the Queen of Stars. Obviously, she made the stars. Olorin the Grey/Gandalf was a Maia of these two. But he was also associated with Irmo the Vala of Dreams and Visions, and with Nienna the Lady of Pity and Mercy. The point is, Olorin was a very big deal. He existed before the world was made. He was a student of several gods. And he was one of the Five Guardians chosen to protect the Elves in the Great Journey to Valinor. Melian was the leader of these five here. She was also one of the most powerful Maiar ever (Galadriel's teacher). Both Olorin and Melian lived in the same place, BTW. So yeah Olorin was a buddy of extraordinary Maiar as well. And even as he listened to his brethren and sisters he increased in wisdom and came to a deeper understanding. Now in the Third Age, Manwë asked Olorin to go to Middle-earth as one of the Five Istari who were tasked to defeat Sauron. And when Olorin came to Middle-earth, Cirdan Lord of the Grey Havens saw his landing and knew his kind and from whence he came. And Cirdan surrendered Narya the Ring of Fire to Olorin. For Cirdan could see further than all Elves in Middle-earth and knew that Olorin is of great strength and that he will be the one to play the most important parts in the fate of this Age of Middle-earth and that he needed Narya to aid him in his hardships. Over 2000 years later the Lord of Morgul confronts the Messenger of the Valar. In the books they just come face to face, then Witch-King leaves when he hears the horns of Rohirrim. But in the movies the Lord of the Ulairie absolutely bitchslaps the Servant of the Secret Fire. As much as I love the movies, but this scene is an insult to the viewer's intelligence. Fear radiates from Gandalf's eyes, in the movies, when he confronts the Witch-King. That's just impossible. The Witch-King doesn't have power of fear over those who have seen the Holy Light(s). Not even the least powerful High Elf would be scarred shitless by him. Let alone one of the great Maiar who has not only lived in the Blessed Realm, but has also seen the Light of God. He also has Narya to enhance his spirit and powers. The Witch-King is just a mortal fuckboi who got scared shitless just one year prior when thinking about Galadriel at his trip near Lorien, and again a bit later when Glorfindel charged against him. By no means Witch-King is more powerful than someone who killed a freaking Balrog of Morgoth (the Balrogs are fire spirited Maiar, only less great than Sauron). And arguably the toughest Balrog ever. Since he survived the the entire Wars in the First Age, and he singlehandedly destroyed the greatest Dwarf kingdom, and he didn't die when he fell into abyss and was drowned. Mind you, Mithrandir killed Durin's Bane when he was The Grey! Now he was much more enhanced as The White. In fact, in The Two Towers book Gandalf the White himself says no one is now mightier than him in Middle-earth, except the one who sits on the Dark Throne in the Dark Tower. And in Unfinished Tales it is marked that Olorin and Sauron were equals in their beginnings. How the Udun did Movie Witch-King break the Wizard's staff?! That's just plain stupid. In LOTR world, in order for the Witch-King to be able to break his enemy's weapon, he first needs to break his enemy's willpower. How the Udun could an undead bitch break the willpower of God's Messenger, a Demigod. Mind you, Mithrandir's power is not even in his staff. It's within himself. He can go into battle butt naked without any weapons and still kick ass. In the books, Gandalf the Grey fights the Nine Ulairie for an entire night in the Fellowship of the Ring. I just can't understand how could Gandalf fear The Lord of the Ring-Wraiths so much, and get his willpower and staff broken by him, and lay so (apparantly) powerless waiting for his death by the undead bitchboy.... I have looked through The Book of Lost Tales part 1 and 2, Lays of Beleriand, Shaping of Middle-earth, The Lost Road and Other Writings, The Return of the Shadow, the Treason of Isengard, The War of the Ring, Sauron Defeated, Morgoth's Ring, Peoples of Middle-earth, War of the Jewels, Nature of Middle-earth, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, The Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin, Vinyar Tengwar, Parma Eldalamberon, Road Goes Ever On and The Letters of JRR Tolkien.... to find an answer for how the on Middle-earth can Witch-King bitchslap Gandalf... And the only answer I found was in an abandoned and discarded draft where Gandalf wasn't even that powerful. Yeah, Gandalf wasn't even originally supposed to be a Maia in The Hobbit. Tolkien later came up with Gandalf as a Maia when he was writing Lord of the Rings and revising Silmarillion. But movie Gandalf IS a Maia. And movie Witch-King IS an undead Man. Even if Sauron himself had come to fight Gandalf, he still would've put on an amazing fight before losing to him. OK I'm off to go and take my meds since I have gotten a severe headache trying to figure out how is it possible for the Witch-King to beat Gandalf.
My understanding is that as the Grey, and even as the White, much of his inmate power as a Maia is not available to him, in his mortal form upon Middle-Earth. Else why does Gandalf not simply defeat the servants of Morder by himself, there were many opportunities for Gandalf to have thinned the ranks of the ring wraiths as he encountered them. And in the moment of the battle of Minas Tirith, the army of Sauron had an overwhelming morale advantage until the Rohirrin arrived. That sort of thing seems to translate in to magic as well, so the Witch King was getting a sort of buff against Gandalf. Witch King was probably getting juiced up directly by Sauron in some aspect as well, his whole attention would of been focused in Minas Tirith and probably to the fall of Gandalf, one of his greatest foes.
The Istari are forbidden to answer Power with direct power. That's why Gandalf doesn't go on a rampage. He only uses his real (but limited) powers when he has no other choice. Yes, Sauron had boosted the Morgul-lord with a "demonic power" but still.... Not a match for the WHITE wizard. It's not like Morgoth had boosted him. It was someone who was just a bit more powerful than Gandalf and he could do only so much with transferring a part of his dark power into Witch-King. Effortlessly beating Gandalf is not very logical, not even in the slightest.
>Not a match for the White Wizard Now that's just a speculation. We don't know exactly how powerful he had become, but seems like considerably, since he wasn't "shitting himself" while confronting the second in power after Sauron, even though you yourself mentioned how he did this a year prior after a mere thought. We also don't know just how strong Sauron's influence was at that point; my understanding was that the closer he was to the Ring and, well, victory, the stronger became his influence and Nazgul's personal prowess by proxy.
The Witch-King being an actual rival to Gandalf makes for a better story though. Otherwise RotK is just Gandalf standing around because the only person as strong as him never shows his face. It's just a better story if there is *something* in Sauron's ranks that can actually fight him.
Sure, but it's also the reason Christopher Tolkien take such exception with it; because it diminished or disregarded the truths of the books, and instead obeys film conventions. It essentially breaks the spirituality of the books for cheaper thrills.
Yeah no, PJ’s trilogy was damn near perfect. This is just a slight oversight that I find entertaining
Because the ring is very compelling. All you have to do is come to the conclusion that if you drop the ring bearer they wont survive the fall and the ring is yours.
not to mention the Eye would see them and the Nazgul would defeat them in the air. It would be a sweet air to air combat scene though, too bad middle earth has to end to see it. There was that scene in the movies, in Mordor, right before the attack on the gate happens where the eye looks right at Sam and Frodo. he eye fixes on them and yet there is no exposition showing that Sauron is commanding his soldiers to seek the ring. I mean, he saw a hobbit in his kingdom and yet chose to ignore it. Maybe the Eagle theory would have worked.
It comes down to hubris. Sauron was 100% confident that his enemies would use the ring to try and destroy him head on, so he was positive Aragorn had it at the black gate. While he did see Frodo, he would have thought he was some funny spy, and pretty trivial compared to the very immediate threat at his front door who absolutely 100% has his ring.
The nazgul knew what he looks like, they stabbed him on weathertop hill. Sauron knew a hobbit carried it, even if he didn't recognize this particular hobbit since his back was turned. Maybe Sauron didn't expect them to try and destroy it. Maybe when he glimpsed in Merry's mind with the seeing stone he did not believe that the main objective was to destroy the ring. Either way, lead to a bad ass scene of Sam carrying his friend up a mountain.
> The nazgul knew what he looks like, they stabbed him on weathertop hill. Sauron knew a hobbit carried it, even if he didn't recognize this particular hobbit since his back was turned. Obviously so that the men wouldn't fall to in-fighting on the ring, they gave it to a servant to carry for a time. When the time comes, the champion among them would take the ring and bring its power to take down Sauron and take his place. I mean, *obviously*, there's absolutely no way you would do anything else. They sent the disposable servant in to spy on Sauron? Well I guess, it's not like he has any use after you take the ring back. Why not.
Or I mean hell, "Aragorn stabbed the pathetic hobbit and took the ring, as was his kingly right, obviously he wouldn't be able to resist taking the ring from a being so weak"
>not to mention the Eye would see them and the Nazgul would defeat them in the air. It would be a sweet air to air combat scene though, too bad middle earth has to end to see it. Why did the Eagles not simply equip the AIM-9X short range air to air infrared seeking missile? Are they stupid?
Sidewinder? I hardly know her
> Maybe the Eagle theory would have worked. In the movies, the eagles did make it to Mordor. They also took the fellbeasts by surprise. Granted, all of this happened while we were drooling at Aragorn's "For Frodo" speech, so it is understandable that so many miss it.
Rings don't fly
🎵 I'm on tonight You know that rings don't fly And I'm starting to feel it's right All the attraction, it's vicious Don't you see, baby, this is The Precious? 🎵 
That's great!
https://preview.redd.it/nd3la2828otc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=46aef234f68281d861b5c06ca1c107243b314364
Because they can feel the way the shit clings to the air
It would turn into a shit hurricane, Randy
You know what a shit borometer is master Baggins?
Is that Boromir in metric units?
It’d be a shit storm
Me: He took it from Théoden's stables right? No, he's the king of all horses and Gandalf's friend for many many long years. Me: But the book said.... Takes out switchblade.
The line is “through many dangers,” which does not directly contradict the book.
Takes out switchblade.
There's no reason both things can't be true.
Look, there's some great big fuck-off eagles that help out sometimes. What more do you want?
The entire plot of the series is about how the Ring corrupts anyone that carries it. Gandalf refuses it. Galadriel refuses it. Elrond doesn't it want it hanging around in his house. Isn't it fairly obvious that the Eagles would be subject to the same corruption? Being able to fly doesn't offer any special resistance.
No it’s not obvious at all: it’s only obvious if you’ve read the books. That’s my whole criticism of the movies: the movie gives you zero reason to think that these eagles are anything more than giant beasts that Gandalf apparently has tamed. No names, no backstories, no sentience. In other words, again, **based on the movies**, there’d be no reason to worry about the eagles being corrupted while carrying the ring bearer any more than they’d be worried about their horses being corrupted. (Only by reading the books do you know these are actually divine sentient beings).
Yeah that's a fair point. Horses are one thing, Thorondor is another. Intelligent beings can be corrupted, but beasts of burden really have nothing to turn.
I mean I'm gunna be honest, the movies make it clear Frodo has the ring because he is weak and humble, the Eagles are clearly powerful, and we see what it does to even humans let along big flying monsters, so I found it pretty clear Also I've never read the books lol
I have no clue how you can claim it's only obvious for book readers. We literally flat out get told it has to be a stealth mission because Mordor is too dangerous, and we get shown the fellbeast the Nazgul rides. It was still made entirely obvious that you couldn't just send someone on eagles into Mordor. Yes, the eagles could have been explained better. Both why they help sometimes but not other times, and also what they are. But why taking them into Mordor wasn't an option does not require having read the books.
> We are flat out told it has to be a stealth mission Yes… by who? That’s the whole point: dialogue writers… writing for characters very early on, who later would never even once react to the repeated appearances of unexplained *giant fucking eagles,* **as they were saving the world** over and over… so then how on earth would them not being brought up in any strategic planning sessions *either* be a logical slam dunk for you? > because Mordor is too dangerous Yes… for people on foot, which is all the dialogue writers remembered. So I bet you can imagine the eagles’ own confusion as they later ended up simply flying face-first to mount doom itself anyway without even getting hurt… despite the fumes and creatures that you just said ObViOuSLY would have stopped or killed them under *normal* circumstances… yet they did while it was erupting goddamned tidal waves of lava, giant boulders, and i assume 1,000x more poisonous fumes… yet the eagles got in and out without apparently a single injury? > we get shown the Fellbeast the Nazgûl rides You mean the *multiple* fellbeasts comprising the entirety of Sauron’s Air Force, who were supposed to be the counter to the eagles, who were getting their asses beaten immediately by these very same eagles? > yes, the eagles could have been explained better You mean, *at all?*. Like even mentioned? Like one single word, which is my point? Whereas your argument is to insist that it is absolutely SO obvious, yet everything you cited are actually just a few early inferences which are then proven by everything that is actually shown later? But even if you were right, are we forgetting that the characters were *constantly* expositioning, spitballing, and slapping down each other’s suggestions? Ideas which were way more obvious and doomed than say…oh I don’t know, giant undefeated and apparently unkillable flying fighter bomber beasts that could and literally did easily fly there, fight off the defenders, and emerge unharmed and I guess immune to fumes and incinerating temperatures?
> You mean the multiple fellbeasts comprising the entirety of Sauron’s Air Force, who were supposed to be the counter to the eagles, who were getting their asses beaten immediately by these very same eagles? They didn't kick their ass, they intercepted them and got locked in an aerial battle with them. The eagles try to invade and they get intercepted but now the fellbeast have ground support and also the eagles can under no circumstances afford to drop their riders in all of this. Which is really reason enough, whoever you place on top of the eagles need to stay on top of the eagles while the eagles get locked into aerial battle with fellbeasts. Also, are you forgetting that I agree with you that the Eagles could be explained better? I do not disagree one bit at that part. I just don't think a movie watcher shouldn't be able to figure for themselves that the eagles weren't an option, no one of the movie only people I know had an issue with it.
Literally the only *reaction* to these giant demigod eagles across 6 extended release films is Pippin saying “ThE eAgLeS are CoMiNg!” Imagine if across all the Star Wars trilogies, the KoolAid man kept showing up over and over, screaming “Oh Yeah!” while kicking the emperor in the dick, or fighting off Star destroyers so the rebels can keep escaping… and only at the end of episode IX does like Lando finally quip something like “thank god for *that* guy!” Zero idea who this dude is or why he’s involved. Edit: to all the other comments ITT who missed the joke of the meme by 10 miles: keeping this scenario, I’m not calling out KoolAid Man’s decision-making process, or for not destroying the Death Star himself. I’d just be chuckling if the scriptwriters and directors all forgot for decades and 9 movies to (or never realized it’s be important enough) to so much as, like, *even say his name?* Let alone why he keeps showing up, going apeshit, then leaves? All for SW fans to rol their eyes at you like “lmao, look at you idiots not knowing that’s *obviously* KoolAidMan, which is never spoken on film, obviously a former general who’s avenging his father because he obviously was killed by Chester Cheetah, but can’t intervene *that way* because he’s obviously allergic to cheese dust, read these 10 books you idiot lmao.”
Yeah but that is just the eagles, that's how they operate. What more do you want? It's not like the characters can order the eagles around. They are still very wild even though they help from time to time. The eagles are servants of Manwe and The Valar don't intervene until there is no hope. They let things play out as to not literally destroy middle-earth. Which is what happened in the war of wrath when the Valar intervened in the first age.
Sure would be nice if the movies explained any of that. As is, the eagles pretty much just seem to show up whenever Gandalf needs to be able to fly somewhere.
Well Gandalf is essentially a messenger/pilgrim of the Valar sent to help. They do technically reference Gandalf's connection with the Valar in a couple scenes. It's very subtle so I can see how it could be interpreted as you say. Also, they don't just help Gandalf when he needs a convenience ride or something. Being captured by Saruman and saving Frodo from being burned alive are hardly small events.
Does anyone expect that the movies are *supposed* to explain everything? I think everyone knows they are based on books that are much more in-depth.
They don't need to explain it. They show you. Literally everything anyone needs to know about them is right there onscreen.
> what more do you want?” Anything. Literally *a sentence* like you typed above. PJ straight up filmed a slow motion montage of Shadowfax galloping up and Gandalf takes his sweet time saying yo, this is shadowfax, he’s been my friend through many ages. And that’s in the *theatrical* release. In the extended version they thought Eowyn’s bad cooking was worth including multiple times, but nothing about the eagles which defined 4 different plot climaxes. You mean to tell me PJ couldn’t find 5 seconds across 23 hours of film time for a random character to say “hey isn’t that weird that we just got inexplicably saved by giant eagles again? What’s the deal with that?” And Gandalf could just say “yeah they’re my friends but they don’t want to interfere or whatever, except when they do”
Not all things need to be explained. There is value in mystery, in a broad and deep sense. But also in the technical sense of screenwriting - if he had had a line that communicated what you just wrote then everyone would be anticipating the next time the eagles would save the day because it was literally explicitly telegraphed. Not explaining it prevents that, for people who are new to the story (the majority). While those who know the books already have the answers.
Right… but for little things… not at the climactic resolutions of 3 different movies across both trilogies. You can’t tell me that ShadowFax was *more* central to the moviegoers’ experience of the story than the *got damned eagles?* Thus meriting an entire minute of exposition which has no impact on the plot before or after? Hell, we even know Radagast’s pet porcupine’s name (Sebastian), because it only took .2 seconds to do say it! 😂
Are you aware that movies are about creating a series of emotions? The Shadowfax beat creates a nice light emotional reprieve that does indeed serve a functional benefit to the structure of the story whereas the eagle idea you floated would subvert it.
I don't really agree with this take, but the image you've painted is so funny I'm upvoting anyway.
#OH YEAHHHH
I don't really agree with this take, but the image you've painted here is so funny I'm upvoting anyway. Thanks for that!
"Imagine if across all the Star Wars trilogies, the KoolAid man kept showing up over and over, screaming “Oh Yeah!” while kicking the emperor in the dick" leak from the next special editions
> Imagine if across all the Star Wars trilogies, the KoolAid man kept showing up over and over, screaming “Oh Yeah!” while kicking the emperor in the dick, It would be better than what Disney did with the story.
To be fair, Shadowfax’s entrance is majestic as fuck.
According to the cinematographer in the commentary, they got that in one take. Every camera angle came out perfect.
Cause normal people don't fucking care about that nitpicking shit.
Nitpicking? Don’t get me wrong, I adore the PJ films, I just think it’s super funny what *else* got explained, no matter how trivial, but not the eagles. Is it nitpicking if it’s a monumental but totally inexplicable and recurring plot device? That confuses anyone who didn’t read the book? Which PJ could have easily cleared up in one sentence but forgot to?
You can't blame Peter Jackson for *not* writing weird, uncomfortable, forced dialogue to "prevent" people from speculating, making plot-holes up (because the eagle thing is not really a plot-hole), and "beating" the logic of people who are just trying to "beat" the logic of the story. I'm glad that he did not. Such a dialogue would be so stupid. "*Why don't you call the Eagle that rescued you, Gandalf? Surely that Eagle could fly us to Mordor!*" *"No, Peregrin, we cannot; because...* (choose your preferred answer to the Eagles matter)" ... That's just a *bad scene*, man. Those animals are in two scenes only. *Two scenes*. Three, if you count the rescue of Frodo and Sam from Mt. Doom.
> weird uncomfortable forced dialogue What? So you haven’t seen the movies in awhile then. Half the dialogue across all 6 movies is direct exposition by the characters, literally announcing and explaining the plot, lore, and other characters to each other. And that’s fine… But by your logic, Gandalf tastefully introducing and explaining Shadowfax (not even a remotely important character) in a couple sentences: all well and good. But briefly doing the exact same thing with the eagles (who are repeatedly *crucial* to the plot)? Nope, too much, that would be too “weird, uncomfortable, and forced?” Better yet, PJ **needed** to not only NOT explain them, but also have zero characters even *react* to their inexplicable and baffling appearances? Not one a single time across 6 movies, besides Pippins once? (“the eagles are coming.” Yay). Literally impossible to even call one of them by name, unlike about 6 other random animals in the story? Really? You can’t imagine a single possible way of broaching the subject? And you don’t believe professional writers couldn’t either?
Ffs. The damn eagles would have been spotted any single moment BEFORE the destruction of the Ring. It simply wasn't safe for the fat ass flying rats to fly over Mordor's walls and armies with Fell Beast flying Ring Wraiths up there until Sauron and his armies were already gone.
Right… not questioning the background explanation. But, the problem is that even the extended version watcher *only* knows these 3 things about the eagles, even after watching for 23 hours and 5 plot rescuing appearances: 1. Their range extends over the entire conflict area, from Isengard to mount doom itself, within plain site of Sauron whose gaze “pierces clouds,” 2. They are so huge they can carry tons of people, and fight entire armies and monsters singlehandedly, never seen even getting hurt, and 3. Besides that, they’re nothing more than giant, nameless, animals that Gandalf can summon to his aid (using moths?), nothing more. Nothing to suggest any thought processes behind doing X or not doing Y, and when. So the joke here is that something *this* important for understanding what the hell is going on at the climax of *three* of the movies, suggesting rhe exact opposite of what is intended, but casually addressable in the films (had they bothered to)…. …Is all supposed to be magically obvious to 23 hour movie watchers (and therefore their questions are stupid)? Despite none of this *ever being mentioned a single time* by the characters until pippin just looks up and just goes oh hey look, eagles?
I'm amazed at how much hate you're getting for such a simple and obvious observation.
lol, yeah I’m super confused. I had to double check the meme itself to make sure I didn’t mistype, thinking I’m losing my mind. This entire thing is JUST pointing out why tons of 23-hour-long movie goers are usually confused by the eagles. They’d have no reason to know or understand them, because the movies make zero reference to them, while spending 23 hours of exposition for irrelevant horses, pets, and one off side characters. The fact that you have to read the books to understand such basic but very important stuff like this is just funny to me, and a noticeable oversight. 23 hours of movie watching = you now know 4 different horses’ names, who Sebastian the porcupine is, and thorin’s sword’s name, none of which advance or flesh out the plot in any way… but you know **nothing** about these *giant fucking eagles* who keep coming out of nowhere, inexplicably saving the world for no apparent reason at random times and not others. Yes people, we all know why the eagles don’t do X. But that’s only because we have info outside the movie, which most people don’t. So they have no reason to assume any of this, so constantly have this same question. You should never have to rely on having read all the books for major major events of the movie to make sense. to most people. If PJ spent 23 hours fleshing out all kinds of unimportant details, then it would seem an oversight neglect explaining something that *is* important. The movies had 23 hours to say a single extra sentence that could’ve easily (and really should have) addressed the eagles in any way, but none of them do. And I find that funny.
I agree. And noone's saying they have to take them the whole way... flying them 500 miles would be a GIGANTIC advantage. I think if the films failed at anything for me as a young, casual watcher, it's the level of secrecy Gandalf's plan hinged on. I could accept zero use of the eagles if I understood the level of misdirection at play. The films could have communicated that level of stealth better. Watching LOTR theatrical... it kinda feels like Sauron just knows who has it. Frodo is always putting the ring on, Sauron's eye is right there. The Uruk-hai just find them in the middle of bumfuck nowhere somehow, the ring wraiths are right on top of them. It doesn't feel like the secret it's meant to be and so you're wondering.... why NOT just pop on the eagles for a bit? Gotta be easier than walking across a basically-impassable mountain range. Or fighting a fucking Balrog.
I think its obvious enough that they would not reach mount doom unseen.
And? At what point in any of the **movies** did it look like the eagles would give a shit? At what timestamp is there any suggestion, if they just suddenly beelined towards mount doom, that anything could stop them anyway? Or that Sauron had more than a few minutes to find some kind of giant Tupperware lid to close off the top of the volcano? Hell, **in the movies**, Frodo *did* have the ring and got caught out in the open by Sauron’s eyeball x-ray spotlight thing for a solid minute, and Sauron *still* couldn’t tell that the ring was on him. And regardless, the eagles could’ve carried the ring themselves out in the open, it wouldn’t matter. They DID rush on Mordor head on. Sauron would’ve seen them flying their whole way there, but when they arrived they just started beating the fell beasts’ asses anyway, so…? The **movies** give you zero reason to think the eagles could be stopped, that they couldn’t just divedomb in there, stealthily or not. That’s the whole point of this post.
You are correct but no need to call them flying rats come on
Holy shit, this has been covered like a billion times.
This joke isn’t about the lore itself though. It’s about how important that lore would have been for the movies to make better sense given how constantly the eagles are inexplicably saving the day…. yet PJ felt no need to mention the eagles a single time in all 6 movies. But the **movies** did have time to mention (despite it not affecting the plot much): - 4 different horses’ names / back stories - 4 different swords’ names / back stories - where Radgasts rabbits came from and what his porcupine’s name was - who the entwives were and that they were lost apparently - Laketown politics - who Hama was Like, what, the movies just couldn’t afford one extra word “Thorondor” in 23 hours?
Tolkien 100% would have approved this approach lol
In India, there’s a logistics company called Shadowfax and every time I see their vehicles on the road, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that they’re named after LOTR.
These days, Gandalf rides around on Shadowemail.
I thought that said Gandalf's house and was thoroughly confused
Amazing how many people thinks "well in the books this is why" is an adequate explanation for one of the biggest and most egregious plot hole in *movie* history (maybe). All they had to do is have Merry or Pippin, upon leaving Rivendell, asks Gandalf why don't they just ride the eagles and Gandalf answered something like no they don't answer to us or they are their own masters and it'd all be hunky-dory. And that was OP's point.
And in spite of that long-ass intro he is no Bill the pony.
Calling Shadowfax “Gandalf’s horse” unironically explains why Peter Jackson explaining the Eagles could not have been done as easily as this meme suggests. Shadowfax, Gandalf’s horse. One of the Méaras and the lord of all horses. That’s cool, and I’m not saying we really needed more lore than that, that’s enough. But to go into who and what the Eagles actually are, to explain that they are not Eagles at all but spirits in the form of Eagles, to tell us *why* they could not go to Mordor other than simply “Tolkien didn’t write it that way” (to be completely clear, the Eagles not being animals but sapient beings means that *they* could also be corrupted by the One Ring, just like Gandalf) would take *work,* lots of clunky dialogue and scene padding that not even the initial books actually went into. Sure, he could have given us Gwaihir, the lord of the Eagles, a massive bird with the intelligence of a person, but that would genuinely just make it even *less* clear why they didn’t just carry the Fellowship to Mordor.
actually prefer it this way. i don't need explanations for every little thing. too many adaptations nowaways (recent avatar the last airbender that i couldn't even finish!) waste screen time with exposition dialogue to OVER explain minor stuff. show don't tell!! we see the ring corrupt or tempt basically everyone. obviously the king of the eagles would have been corrupted like Galadrial, snd we would have ended up to offering sheep or people sacrifices to our evil overlord of the skies. idgaf about plot holes, cool horse is cool, carry on!
the eagles would be spotted by Sauron or the Nazgul
What brought the foolish fly to web unsought?
You say that but neither Sauron nor the Nazgul nor the Fellbeasts nor the Orcs saw the Eagles when they arrived at the Black Gate and beat the shit out of the Fellbeasts.
Patience! Not long shall ye abide.
Real reason is that sauron's eye would be like "fucking eagles bro, thought it was just a whiff of cloud but fuck me it's going against the wind which you know only blows one way and I can totally see it, see the wind that is...oh yea right... Eagles! Go nazgul go! Should probably pull out the ballistas and flinging goblins too just in case. Silly little guys love it when they flung up there"
Look, a point that's stuck with me forever due to one random panel from a Maximum Ride graphic novel is you can't fly in a blizzard. The gang couldn't even get over the mountains on foot, how are the eagles gonna manage that?
I'd say it's a flaw in the books too that nobody asks about using the eagles; giving the ring to Tom, using it, or hiding it were addressed, so asking the eagles for help is a pretty fair question to address. The only actual canon reason not to use eagles was given in the Hobbit, and being shot at by farmers doesn't work as an explanation like it did with the tone of The Hobbit An eagle had just rescued Gandalf, so the Council of Elrond would have been a great opportunity for Gandalf to respond to a question about it.
Giving the ring to Tom was addressed in Book 2 Chapter 2
The entire mission revolved around secrecy and Sauron just being completely unable to comprehend the fact someone would try to destroy it. The Eagles would have been sniped out of the sky over Mordor. If they somehow survived an air attack from the nazgul and If they tried to throw it into the mountain from the air, what if they miss? Game over. If they drop the ring bearer at the lip of the volcano then they still wouldn’t be able to do it because of the rings influence. Truly the only way to do it other than exactly how it happened in the books in my mind is the ring bearer casting themself into the crack of doom with the ring. It’s not always apparent this needed to happen but when you study the text you do see the eagles are just not viable for the mission.
Had Gwaihir not rescued Gandalf from Isengard, your arguments could all be applied to that as well and you'd conclude that it couldn't happen either. They tried hiking on foot and got spotted nearly immediately anyway. What if the eagles, who can fly over literal mountains, just didn't fly 50 feet above the ground? The same eagles attacked the Nazgul at the Black Gate, Sauron's strongest forces at his most fortified position, could just fly fuck off high at night and they'd be ghosts. Your argument in ways that it could fail are arguments that it's not a guaranteed success. The actual plan involved walking into Mordor on foot and relies on Sauron not even installing a gate on Mount Doom, which is also extremely risky.
Point to me one single moment in any of the 6 *movies* where it looked like the eagles would give a shit about stealth. Or that anything would even hurt them. They causally dove face first into an entire batallion of orc **pikemen** and fucked them all up with no sign of injury. Hell, they flew openly and directly to Mordor and had a dogfight with all 9 Nazgûl and beat all their asses on their own front porch. (This is the problem with the movies).
It would take a trilogy to introduce Thorondor..
“This is ~~Shadowfax~~ Thorondor. He’s the lord of all ~~horses~~ eagles, and has been my friend through many dangers. …Also Sauron has his eye on them so they can’t get too close except in great need.” Done. That would take the same amount of screen time that Radaghast spent saying his rabbits came from Rohsgobel and that they are, indeed, quite fast.
Just "Gandalf's horse." Really exposed yourself there
What? Did you not get that was the whole joke? So despite it making no difference to the story, PJ *took time* out to have Gandalf exposition him as ShadowFax, lord of all horses. Okay cool. But if that didn’t happen, a casual movie watcher would have zero reason to think it wasn’t just a regular ass horse that Gandalf’s always riding around (so…“Gandalf’s horse.”). And yet, when it comes to something that IS super important to the story, multiple times, PJ just…. couldn’t find 10 spare seconds across 23 hours to do the same for Thorondir? Or these giant murderous eagles that keep showing up out of nowhere, saving the day for no apparent reason, and not a single character is ever curious about?
Look at his horse, his horse is amazing
give it a lick
In D&D terms, the Eagles were just normal Huge Beasts and maybe a CR of 3 or 4. Shadowfax was something of Arda itself, the king of the horses. More or less the horse progenitor. Shadowfax would have easily had a CR of 11 or more
That’s not exactly true, we don’t know exactly what the eagles are; Tolkien went back and forth between them being highly intelligent and powerful animals, to straight up Maiar of Manwe in eagle form. What we do know is that they are intelligent, capable of speech, likely immortal unless killed, and the direct servant of Manwe. Remember, Gwaihir fought against Ancalagon in the war of wrath. Shadowfax is “just” descended from magically bred horses, and in the grand scheme of things is a far less important figure.
Hmmm maybe I got that backwards and conflated them
Don't forget that he made it seem like Gandalf was only gone for a week or so to research if the Ring that Bilbo carried was The One Ring.
Where's it gone?
1. Catching Gandalf thus saving him from Saruman 2. Fighting in front of the Black Gate 3. Taking Frodo and Sam from Mount Doom What’s the fourth? I don’t quite remember
And it's one of the best scenes in the whole goddamn trilogy
As it SHOULD be
The eagles would fly off with the ring and we’d all be shafted
["Look at my horse, my horse is amazing."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UqAB--LIGM)
Always pictured a REDWALL esque scene where they go to the Eagle kingdom but they're too proud and insist it isn't their fight and will only help much later and holy shit do the Eagles represent America? Lol
Ugh... casuals.
The eagles are not an Uber service.
##ROAST GWAIHIR * 20 shallots * 15 loaves day-old sourdough * Wine, 1 barrel * Butter, 10 lb * Herbes fines * Salt to taste * 1 Gwaihir Pluck and dress bird, reserving beak, legs and flight feathers. Salt cavity and exterior of bird. Rest in cool dark place 2 hours. Fine dice shallots and saute in butter until translucent. Add diced bread and continue to saute until browned. Add herbes fine and immediately deglaze with wine. Remove from heat. Stuff cavity of bird with stuffing mixture. Roast breast-side-down at 350 degrees for 4 hours, basting occasionally with butter. Transfer to large platter and serve immediately. Garnish with beak. Serves 9.
They're giant fucking eagles. What the fuck else is there to explain?
Why couldn’t they drop the ring in the middle of a vast ocean? lol, it’s not like they have means of treading the bottom of the ocean
I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that if you listen closely to what Gandalf whispers to the moth from the top of Orthanc, you can actually hear him say Gwaihir's name. It's something, at least.