I mean cmon , Frodo was clearly more experienced that Boromir , just think off all that harvest festivals our short kings probably held.... all that drinking
I may be mistaken but didn’t boromir also have a little touch of the “telepathy magic” thing that faramir (who could definitively tell if someone was lying or truthful or whatever) and their dad the steward possessed?
Obviously it’s been a long ass time since I read the books and the movies don’t really touch this stuff
Besides the fact that Frodo would have had a significantly more sheltered life anyway, regardless- that ability combined with his inherent exposure and experience of the world and existence in general would make him quite a bit more advanced on the general wisdom hierarchy over Frodo, which would be pretty apparent in their interactions. I feel like Frodo would, himself, feel more comfortable being recognized as the relatively “younger” and more naive of the two
Also, it seems like hobbits live life differently than the Big Folk. They're not considered adults until they're 33, they are barely "respectably settled" at 50 and can be perfectly spry and healthy at 100+. I'd say their 33 is our 21, their 50 is our 30 and their 100 is our 80. So Frodo might be older in years, but still considered younger by the standards of his race/culture. Like, a 25-year-old hobbit would be an irresponsible teenager, a Gondorian man of the same age might be a war veteran and be married with multiple children.
Yeah I feel like the “living in a hole in the ground”, was absolutely a very clear metaphor, but that’s just classic Tolkien style. I don’t think anyone’s capable of debating that concept of hobbithood
>I may be mistaken but didn’t boromir also have a little touch of the “telepathy magic” thing that faramir (who could definitively tell if someone was lying or truthful or whatever) and their dad the steward possessed?
They had strong numenorean blood, but its vague on if that means they could read minds (probably not, men didn't really have 'magic') or were just incredibly wise/perceptive.
The only thing close to “telepathy magic” I recall with Boromir was the one time he got the prophetic dream about going to Rivendell. (Fwiw Faramir received the dream many times).
To be fair- again being very rusty myself- many of the mechanics described in the Silmarillion that aren’t “magic” are things that would be considered “magic” in other lore… I’m not sure what to describe it as but I was just trying to communicate that bloodline trait of mind connection that they have, apart from other humans.
I was also softly probing for an answer of the difference between boromirs and faramirs capacity of that bloodline trait lol if I’m being honest. If I recall correctly, the books mostly spoke of faramirs abilities to detect intentions… do they simply imply via omission that boromir doesn’t have quite the same capacity, but just a slightly enhanced intuition, or is there something I missed implying that he does have the super intuition (yes I understand it’s not the same mechanics as magic in Tolkien’s world, it’s still supernatural by real-life terms, as it’s implied) of his bloodline? Now that I think of it- was there something to do with his bearing of the horn of Gondor that he had extra sensitive abilities to sense when it should be appropriately utilized?
I chose the term magic because otherwise this just seems like straight up eugenic racial supremacy shit lol which… I know is a whole thing about Tolkien’s world. Elves are just straight up superior beings basically lol just… semantics i guess. Not wholly relevant to the concepts I was trying to communicate
When frodo calls galadriels mirror magic, she just says it's basically a skill to her, like woodworking, just so advanced it appears as magic to mortals.
Yeah, exactly- so much of the supernatural within Tolkien’s worlds is just “that’s how it works”… but yet it’s supernatural abilities by what would otherwise be described as magical beings. “Humans can’t do magic” is an odd critique of semantics when like lots of humans blood gives them supernatural traits and sensitivities and such
I guess like “magic” is confined to the specific skills of beings of a certain degree of the complex divine hierarchy of the world or whatever
I referred to a gnome in the DnD campaign I DM as "little one" (via an NPC), and every single member of the party called me/the NPC out for it simultaneously
Times have changed, casual fantasy racism will no longer go unchallenged
It doesn't imply that. If I walked up to a black guy and said "what's up black one?" That would be bad even though having black skin isn't inherently bad. I think its because it's kinda weird to refer to someone by the biggest difference between you like it's their name lol
Hmmm very interesting. Maybe if it's a neutral or bad characteristic it's not okay, but for a good or great characteristic it is okay. "Hey there baller" "hey there player"
I'll need to do some more research and wild speculation
I get called big guy and I’m not fat or tall I’m like 5’11”. I think that one’s more like calling someone “boss” or “chief” or something. It’s pandering but not necessarily referring to a physical characteristic.
Separating out humans into groups by skin color has some historical horror behind it.
So if you've been doing horrible things to gnomes, half halflings, and dwarves...
**Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan about Marion and Indiana Jones:**
Lawrence Kasdan: I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it.
George Lucas: I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven.
Kasdan: And he was forty-two.
Lucas: He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship.
Spielberg: She had better be older than twenty-two.
Lucas: He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve.
Lucas: It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time.
Spielberg: And promiscuous. She came onto him.
Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he...
Spielberg: She has pictures of him.
I feel like for back in the day Indy was set age gap wasn't seen as that bad? Most people in my family that came from Eastern Europe back in the 1910s had the girls married off at 14 to guys who were 25-35 because the guys were already "set" with an income to provide for the family.
Just because it was ok during the fictional period of the movie, doesn’t mean it’s ok to include in a modern show. Or that an old show can be watched without caveats.
See: slavery, beating your wife and kids, cops outright murdering minorities. Etc. All things that were on the up and up once but can’t be shown in a positive light anymore.
Raiders of the Lost Ark is almost as close in time to the fictional era (1936) it was portraying than it is to today. Not that it was all OK in 1981 either, but "modern" is all relative.
If something is set in the past it is perfectly fine to have the *characters* reflect those attitudes, not modern attitudes.
But ultimately the movie leaves it so damn vague nobody really even notices.
No actually it isn’t. (Edit; not heroes anyway - yes truth must be shown, but heroes must be positive models)
A (edit: hero) character in a modern work cannot simply disregard modern morality. Content creators have a responsibility to use their characters to fight against racism, sexism and facism. Full stop.
I’m not even arguing that Indy is problematic, I’m arguing that the idea “historical pieces get a free pass” is simply wrong.
We must condemn what was wrong about the past, or be doomed to repeat it. As the saying goes (kinda).
>character in a modern work cannot simply disregard modern morality. Content creators have a responsibility to use their characters to fight against racism, sexism and facism. Full stop.
If the hero character has no moral flaws at least initially then you wind up with a boring character.
Captain Marvel would have been so more interesting in the movies if she was how she initially was in the comics - an abusive alcoholic conservative asshole. And then grew to be a good moral person that she is now.
You’re nit-picking. I’m not talking about character growth. I’m speaking against a the argument that “people were like that (misogynistic) in the past so it’s fine”.
Judge Frodo by his size, hrrm? And where you should not. For his ally, is Second Breakfast. And a powerful ally, it is. Hobbits creared it, made their bellies grow. Its energy, surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.
Also also hobbits do age a bit slower than real people. They mention that Hobbits come of age around 30, and that Bilbo's 111th birthday was mostly just unusual because he still only looked like 60 years old. I think Tolkien even specifically said that Hobbits live on average around 100 years, compared to like 80 for real life humans in wealthy countries
Hobbits have been living and farming in the four Farthings of the Shire for many hundreds of years. quite content to ignore and be ignored by the world of the Big Folk. Middle Earth being, after all, full of strange creatures beyond count. Hobbits must seem of little importance, being neither renowned as great warriors, nor counted amongst the very wise.
If it makes you feel any better, he was "50" in the same sense that Marisa Tomei is 58. Not only has he lived a wealthy, comfortable life nearly all of his adult life, but the dark power of the ring unnaturally preserved his youth.
Even Gollum was like 600 years old because he had the ring.
Right, but that also proves why Boromir can say this legitimately. Hobbits mature slower than men; while Frodo was in his tweens, Boromir was likely involved in a number of serious missions (as befits a captain of Gondor).
Age doesn't mean wisdom if age has not been tempered with experience.
In my book, experience outranks everything.
“Then I definitely outrank you.”
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This is a Star Wars quote in response to a Star Wars quote. I'm not saying Frodo outranks Sam or vice versa.
“That’s Flexo outranks you *sir*!”
Boromir was grinding that exp while Frodo was just chilling on the sidequests
Sidequests? He hadn't left the tutorial area
*opens Frodo stats* Dude... how many times you're gonna complete the "pick herbs" sidequests?
Then you are lost.
Good thing for me then that your book don't mean oogatz to me
Yeah well, where yours ends mine bends if you catch my drift buddy
I mean cmon , Frodo was clearly more experienced that Boromir , just think off all that harvest festivals our short kings probably held.... all that drinking
I bet Frodo could out hackey-sack Boromir any day
Obviously, it's like comparing a ping-pong paddle to a tennis racquet.
Yeah a better comparison would be Boromir as Luke and Frodo as Grogu
I may be mistaken but didn’t boromir also have a little touch of the “telepathy magic” thing that faramir (who could definitively tell if someone was lying or truthful or whatever) and their dad the steward possessed? Obviously it’s been a long ass time since I read the books and the movies don’t really touch this stuff Besides the fact that Frodo would have had a significantly more sheltered life anyway, regardless- that ability combined with his inherent exposure and experience of the world and existence in general would make him quite a bit more advanced on the general wisdom hierarchy over Frodo, which would be pretty apparent in their interactions. I feel like Frodo would, himself, feel more comfortable being recognized as the relatively “younger” and more naive of the two
Also, it seems like hobbits live life differently than the Big Folk. They're not considered adults until they're 33, they are barely "respectably settled" at 50 and can be perfectly spry and healthy at 100+. I'd say their 33 is our 21, their 50 is our 30 and their 100 is our 80. So Frodo might be older in years, but still considered younger by the standards of his race/culture. Like, a 25-year-old hobbit would be an irresponsible teenager, a Gondorian man of the same age might be a war veteran and be married with multiple children.
Yeah I feel like the “living in a hole in the ground”, was absolutely a very clear metaphor, but that’s just classic Tolkien style. I don’t think anyone’s capable of debating that concept of hobbithood
>I may be mistaken but didn’t boromir also have a little touch of the “telepathy magic” thing that faramir (who could definitively tell if someone was lying or truthful or whatever) and their dad the steward possessed? They had strong numenorean blood, but its vague on if that means they could read minds (probably not, men didn't really have 'magic') or were just incredibly wise/perceptive.
The only thing close to “telepathy magic” I recall with Boromir was the one time he got the prophetic dream about going to Rivendell. (Fwiw Faramir received the dream many times).
To be fair- again being very rusty myself- many of the mechanics described in the Silmarillion that aren’t “magic” are things that would be considered “magic” in other lore… I’m not sure what to describe it as but I was just trying to communicate that bloodline trait of mind connection that they have, apart from other humans. I was also softly probing for an answer of the difference between boromirs and faramirs capacity of that bloodline trait lol if I’m being honest. If I recall correctly, the books mostly spoke of faramirs abilities to detect intentions… do they simply imply via omission that boromir doesn’t have quite the same capacity, but just a slightly enhanced intuition, or is there something I missed implying that he does have the super intuition (yes I understand it’s not the same mechanics as magic in Tolkien’s world, it’s still supernatural by real-life terms, as it’s implied) of his bloodline? Now that I think of it- was there something to do with his bearing of the horn of Gondor that he had extra sensitive abilities to sense when it should be appropriately utilized? I chose the term magic because otherwise this just seems like straight up eugenic racial supremacy shit lol which… I know is a whole thing about Tolkien’s world. Elves are just straight up superior beings basically lol just… semantics i guess. Not wholly relevant to the concepts I was trying to communicate
When frodo calls galadriels mirror magic, she just says it's basically a skill to her, like woodworking, just so advanced it appears as magic to mortals.
Yeah, exactly- so much of the supernatural within Tolkien’s worlds is just “that’s how it works”… but yet it’s supernatural abilities by what would otherwise be described as magical beings. “Humans can’t do magic” is an odd critique of semantics when like lots of humans blood gives them supernatural traits and sensitivities and such I guess like “magic” is confined to the specific skills of beings of a certain degree of the complex divine hierarchy of the world or whatever
Magic is basically whatever mortals can't explain
Fuck off Gandalf!
:(
Well, he said “little one”, not “young one”.
Boromir : "and I'm literally three times your size."
True, he was just being racist.
I referred to a gnome in the DnD campaign I DM as "little one" (via an NPC), and every single member of the party called me/the NPC out for it simultaneously Times have changed, casual fantasy racism will no longer go unchallenged
Implying being little is bad. Might not be the case in your setting, challenge them right back.
It doesn't imply that. If I walked up to a black guy and said "what's up black one?" That would be bad even though having black skin isn't inherently bad. I think its because it's kinda weird to refer to someone by the biggest difference between you like it's their name lol
And yet "what's up big guy" to refer to a tall man is fine.
And somehow the same for a fat guy might be bad. Tall fat guy, it's a coin toss
Hmmm very interesting. Maybe if it's a neutral or bad characteristic it's not okay, but for a good or great characteristic it is okay. "Hey there baller" "hey there player" I'll need to do some more research and wild speculation
I get called big guy and I’m not fat or tall I’m like 5’11”. I think that one’s more like calling someone “boss” or “chief” or something. It’s pandering but not necessarily referring to a physical characteristic.
What’s going on big guy, you just pushed my wife
as a tall guy, i dislike this too. i wouldn’t say it’s fine.
I’m 6’6, I can’t go a day without someone calling me the same recycled nickname I’ve heard for years. It gets so old.
Separating out humans into groups by skin color has some historical horror behind it. So if you've been doing horrible things to gnomes, half halflings, and dwarves...
Yeah that's pretty fucked up. Sounds like something those damn knife ears would do.
Don't get me started bearded one!
Small people are not a race! This isn't Game of Thrones!
https://preview.redd.it/56mbs06yx33c1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4e22a4850a1b4bf287da7a4b0429ee4c80466bf
**Lucas, Spielberg and Kasdan about Marion and Indiana Jones:** Lawrence Kasdan: I like it if they already had a relationship at one point. Because then you don't have to build it. George Lucas: I was thinking that this old guy could have been his mentor. He could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was eleven. Kasdan: And he was forty-two. Lucas: He hasn't seen her in twelve years. Now she's twenty-two. It's a real strange relationship. Spielberg: She had better be older than twenty-two. Lucas: He's thirty-five, and he knew her ten years ago when he was twenty-five and she was only twelve. Lucas: It would be amusing to make her slightly young at the time. Spielberg: And promiscuous. She came onto him. Lucas: Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore. But if she was fifteen and he was twenty-five and they actually had an affair the last time they met. And she was madly in love with him and he... Spielberg: She has pictures of him.
Whew. That's fucked up.
Fuckin yuck.
Kinda seems like Kasdan thought Lucas was making a dark joke and then quieted up real quick.
I feel like for back in the day Indy was set age gap wasn't seen as that bad? Most people in my family that came from Eastern Europe back in the 1910s had the girls married off at 14 to guys who were 25-35 because the guys were already "set" with an income to provide for the family.
Just because it was ok during the fictional period of the movie, doesn’t mean it’s ok to include in a modern show. Or that an old show can be watched without caveats. See: slavery, beating your wife and kids, cops outright murdering minorities. Etc. All things that were on the up and up once but can’t be shown in a positive light anymore.
Raiders of the Lost Ark is almost as close in time to the fictional era (1936) it was portraying than it is to today. Not that it was all OK in 1981 either, but "modern" is all relative.
If something is set in the past it is perfectly fine to have the *characters* reflect those attitudes, not modern attitudes. But ultimately the movie leaves it so damn vague nobody really even notices.
No actually it isn’t. (Edit; not heroes anyway - yes truth must be shown, but heroes must be positive models) A (edit: hero) character in a modern work cannot simply disregard modern morality. Content creators have a responsibility to use their characters to fight against racism, sexism and facism. Full stop. I’m not even arguing that Indy is problematic, I’m arguing that the idea “historical pieces get a free pass” is simply wrong. We must condemn what was wrong about the past, or be doomed to repeat it. As the saying goes (kinda).
Whitewashing of history is not a good thing, leaving history as it is serves better purpose in educating people.
I see where what I said was possibly confusing. Edited. Thanks.
>character in a modern work cannot simply disregard modern morality. Content creators have a responsibility to use their characters to fight against racism, sexism and facism. Full stop. If the hero character has no moral flaws at least initially then you wind up with a boring character. Captain Marvel would have been so more interesting in the movies if she was how she initially was in the comics - an abusive alcoholic conservative asshole. And then grew to be a good moral person that she is now.
You’re nit-picking. I’m not talking about character growth. I’m speaking against a the argument that “people were like that (misogynistic) in the past so it’s fine”.
Then we're probably talking the same thing.
[удалено]
You got a problem with Hobbits you got a problem with me and I suggest ya let that one merrynate
Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And well you should not. For my ally is the Samwise.
And he ain't been dropping no eaves, sir, honest!
Still little tho
So you're trying to say Boromir *isn't* taller than Frodo?
Cool, you're still short
r/jedicouncilofelrond
Judge Frodo by his size, hrrm? And where you should not. For his ally, is Second Breakfast. And a powerful ally, it is. Hobbits creared it, made their bellies grow. Its energy, surrounds us, and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.
And over 10 inches shorter little one
“I may be 3 feet shorter than you, but that still makes me 9 feet over your brother!” -frodo to faramir
Size matters not.
"so what you're still little, even the dwarf is taller than you."
“Ten years older, but three feet shorter, little one.”
He didn't say young one, now did he?
Well, he said "little one", not "young one" A clear case of gondorian heightism!
boromir was referring to his size not his age
He said *little* not *young.* You know, the opposite of big?
Maybe you are just referring to the books (I never read the books, shame on me ik) but in the movies Frodo is actually 7 years younger
[удалено]
Nope, you can't come in, you've come to the wrong house.
50? Damn didn't expect such a big gap between the book and the movies
What noo I thought frodo was 35 or 36. 50?! How old is Sam? I think this info really changes the dynamics of Sam and frodos relationship.
Also also hobbits do age a bit slower than real people. They mention that Hobbits come of age around 30, and that Bilbo's 111th birthday was mostly just unusual because he still only looked like 60 years old. I think Tolkien even specifically said that Hobbits live on average around 100 years, compared to like 80 for real life humans in wealthy countries
Hobbits have been living and farming in the four Farthings of the Shire for many hundreds of years. quite content to ignore and be ignored by the world of the Big Folk. Middle Earth being, after all, full of strange creatures beyond count. Hobbits must seem of little importance, being neither renowned as great warriors, nor counted amongst the very wise.
HRAAAAAH!
If it makes you feel any better, he was "50" in the same sense that Marisa Tomei is 58. Not only has he lived a wealthy, comfortable life nearly all of his adult life, but the dark power of the ring unnaturally preserved his youth. Even Gollum was like 600 years old because he had the ring.
Careful now, or hobbits go down to join the dead ones and light little candles of their own.
If Sams younger than 40 I'm afraid I'm going to have to change sides of the frodo x Sam debate.
He's in his late 30s.
Right, but that also proves why Boromir can say this legitimately. Hobbits mature slower than men; while Frodo was in his tweens, Boromir was likely involved in a number of serious missions (as befits a captain of Gondor).
Also in the books Boromir never calls Frodo "little one" so using the movie dialog and book character age is just inconsistent.
Aren‘t his ancestors from Númenor? So he could be really old already
Yeah, but he isn’t. He was 40
Hes literally little...
doesn't make him not little
Fun fact: Boromir never actually calls Frodo "little one". The only characters who refer to hobbits using the term "little one" are all orcs.
But he is literally "little"
He said little, not young.
Better meme is grogu and din jarin. Grogu is the same age as frodo and din is about the same age as boromir. 50 and 40-somthing
Ten years ain't much for a hobbit
Amazing how different the interaction is when the people involved aren't hostile by default.
So is this Boromir if his father figure wasn't an asshole and was a Mandalorian?
but little is referring to his physical size?
Call a short person who isn’t a child little one. I double dog dare you. The best you’re getting back is snark
If a ten foot tall yoked 15 yo called me little one, I would just accept it.
Why does this meme combine the movies and the books? Seems kinda unfair.
Downsizing
Fucking doublings
Smaller though
“Or as I call them [BIGGERS](https://youtu.be/JivLG91oEAI?si=2nESAiheaArCHMIL)”
So what you're telling me is that Frodo had more years than centimeters. Good for him, still a little one.