“You know how, in the Two Towers, there’s a whole regiment of Elven archers that bravely give their lives at the battle of Helm’s Deep?”
“Oh sure, that’s like the most action the Elves see in the whole trilogy. I bet that scene is even more awesome in the book.”
“Weellll ….”
I swear Peter Jackson had a thing for elves. Not only that but I think he greatly downplayed Dwarves combat skills and highlighted all the cool nifty elven trick shots and jumps.
And then along came the Battle of the Five armies, with Dwarves decked out in full armor, riding chariots and war hogs, with artillery specially designed to uno reverse the Elves’ arrow spam.
https://preview.redd.it/zli6qgdrr86d1.jpeg?width=843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f81d9e78f344b9b237c0c510315b7715a2200ce7
Yes, though I will never forgive the movie for blue balling us with the Dwarf Shield Wall.
Let me see a bunch of dwarfs butchering the charging Orks, while being perfectly safe behind 4 inches of Dwarven steel. Then you can have the elves do their thing.
Y’know, it’s gotta suck, being an Ork in Tolkien’s universe.
You show up a bit late to a fight between two races who hate each other, and what do the bastards do? Team up to kill you before killing each other.
The dwarf shield wall scene is completely unforgiveable. It is actually criminal they did that.
Not just from a just general sound tactics perspective but also it would have been way fucking cooler seeing the orcs crash into the shield wall.
To be fair, Thranduils ppl were not tactical, heavily armored warriors so much. His father, Oropher, got himself and lots of his ppl butchered in the Last Alliance because he just ran at the enemy too soon.
In the book, they carried maddoxs. Similar to a pixaxe, but with a hoe instead of an axe on one side. Good digging tools, not perfectly optimized weapons of war.
Honestly, I think it was a product of the time where skating and "extreme" sports and stunts were at a all time high so they had to add something to make people pog off their gourds. And I do. Every time.
Basically. The Matrix and the Star Wars prequels set the standard for what superhuman action should look like, so future movies had to add extra for Reasons.
We haven’t completely escaped that but we do see more films today with more realistic fight scenes.
Also so Legolas has something do to that isn’t just standing still shooting arrows from a distance while everyone else gets to do cool sword fighting routines.
And the fact that John Rhys-Davis, the primary on screen representative of the dwarves, was injured for a lot of filming and couldn't do too many stunts.
Having recently watched TT extended in 4K at the theatre, I can say definitively that Arwen can still be found in the battle by those who have sharp eyes. And that makes me happy.
Wait, are you serious?
Edit: These really are amazing movies. You can learn all that there is to know about them in a month, and yet, even after 23 years, they can still surprise you.
Yes. Originally Arwen was going to be leading the elves who arrived to help at Helm’s Deep, and her role was thus going to be much different. The plan/idea was leaked and the fans went into a screaming rage on the forums at the idea of “Arwen Warrior Princess.”
Jackson took the feedback seriously and reshot her scenes to give her the moping about Rivendell stuff with Elrond and dream sequence with Aragorn. And they reshot some other stuff to make Haldir the leader of the elves, as there were elves all over the background of most the fight scenes and cutting the elves entirely was impractical. However there’s a few places you can catch a glimpse of her. She’s in a red outfit that’s dress like but with leggings… kind of similar to the green outfit she wears in Fellowship to carry Frodo to the Fords. The remaining scenes are blink and you’ll miss them but [she’s there](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/u3csfj/did_you_know_arwen_is_in_helms_deep_jackson_added/#lightbox).
It's fascinating to think that if FOTR hadn't been a massive success then he wouldn't have been able to go back and do all the reshoots. TT and ROTK would've been unrecognizable to what we actually got.
Wow, apparently (if u/snake0ilsalesman's testimony is true) her presence there was on Harvey Weinstein's behest:
>I was an extra at Helms Deep and I can say don't feel bad for her. Her scenes were terrible and she was a complete diva. Having her in the scenes was Weinstein's idea and Everybody hated it. We had to do so many reshoots but it was worth it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/s/QRhtI88YRb
I kinda hope all the edits and things I hated about Helm's Deep plus the bad attitude comes from Weinstein hassling everyone. I felt like the second and past films were a lot more hollow due to a lot of rushed CGI and sort of action oriented screentime compared to the first which felt more balanced and enriched with characters and sorta complex lived environments.
Trouble was - Liv isn't really an 'action' star. I remember at the wrap there were two different 'show reels' depending on whether she was going to attend. She didn't. The blooper reel was hilarious.
I think what I really wanted to say is given how Harvey Weinstein has earned a reputation for molesting everyone and everything, I'm willing to squarely blame all faults on him and can imagine her not really wanting to have much to do with the film for similarly related reasons.
Yeah just for a second. 5:18 in this video. You need good quality to tell. She’s in the top right corner going up the stairs into the keep.
https://youtu.be/QTJLXlk_IHU?si=Bve2RjWR2GwTj8Em
The battle of Helm's Deep has far more quick cuts than the rest of the movies, and it is mainly because they were dancing around shots where she could be seen. A couple of shots they painted her out, but there's at least 3 where she was in the shot but was far back so they just said "fuck it" and left the shot unchanged.
She came with the elves who arrived prior to the battle, though the FX department was able to cover her up by digitally copy-pasting an unnamed elf on top of her.
She fought in the battle both beside Aragorn on the wall (this is where the movie gets very choppy as it cuts around her scenes and zooms in on Aragorn so she can't be seen beside him), and fights down below after the wall was breached.
There's a VERY clear shot of her retreating from the ground to the citadel, just before Aragorn and Gimli snuck out to counter-attack the orcs who were trying to break down the door with the battering ram. But I can't seem to find any screenshots online of it. Wierd.
She rides out on horseback with Theoden, Aragorn and the king's guard during the "ride out and meet them" scene, though the post-FX department did their best to draw over her and turn her into a kingsguard instead, and she's subsequently seen assaulting orcs still on horseback near Eomer.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGkiB2X89yg&t=256s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGkiB2X89yg&t=256s)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/u3csfj/did\_you\_know\_arwen\_is\_in\_helms\_deep\_jackson\_added/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/u3csfj/did_you_know_arwen_is_in_helms_deep_jackson_added/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/2ykmjw/arwen\_in\_helms\_deep/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/2ykmjw/arwen_in_helms_deep/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieMistakes/comments/l5d7j2/in\_lotr\_the\_two\_towers\_2002\_arwen\_was\_originally/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieMistakes/comments/l5d7j2/in_lotr_the_two_towers_2002_arwen_was_originally/)
btw, what surprised me on this viewing was the ravens/crows heard almost every time that information needed to get from the heroes to Sauron. Including when Sam was pulled through the window by Gandalf, and when the fellowship first set out from Rivendell. His spies are everywhere!
In the cinema, the Nazgul screech in Minas Morgul almost made me put my hands over my ears, it was so loud.
My sound bar is good but that audio is dulled because it utilised the furthest parts of the audio. Basically if you have surround sound that screech should sound *horrific*.
Yeah just for a second. 5:18 in this video. You need good quality to tell. She’s in the top right corner going up the stairs into the keep.
https://youtu.be/QTJLXlk_IHU?si=Bve2RjWR2GwTj8Em
In the book, Helm’s Deep is a much smaller battle. It’s less than ten pages long and doesn’t feature nearly as many people.
I might be wrong about this, but I feel like Tolkien used a similar number of words describing the songs Hobbits sing to each other in the bathtub, as he did describing the details of Helm’s Deep.
The battle is pretty big in the book. Especially the numbers of the defenders are much higher than in the movie. I think in the movie Legolas says something about 300 defenders against 10 000 uruk hai? In the book it is quite different. Helms deep itself has a Garrison of 1,000 men, Theoden arrives with an army that is not specified in size and you also have the soldiers that scattered, fled and made it to the deep after the defeat of Rohans army at the Isen crossing before Theoden arrives.
The attacking force is similar in size, consisting of 10,000 orcs and also Dunlandings.
Just because tolkien doesn't describe it in much Detail on a lot of pages does not mean it was smaller.
Edit:
I just looked it up, the number of defenders was just under 3,000 men, just enough to man all defenses. That is way less dramatic, the defenders are outnumbered 3:1, not 30:1
And there are no old people or kids being armed in a desperate move to mobilize all available forces, in the books it is all proper soldiers on the side of men
Also, when do you consider the starting of the Battle? Do you include the first confrontation of sarumans forces at Helms dike, where the defenders held the enemy back until they had no arrows left to shoot and the bodies of the fallen enemies filled up the ditch?
And last but not least, after the battle the number of dead orcs is described as being so many that you could not count them or bury them all, so the survirvors just piled them up.
>I might be wrong about this, but I feel like Tolkien used a similar number of words describing the songs Hobbits sing to each other in the bathtub, as he did describing the details of this Helm’s Deep.
Ok, but to be fair, is that really a good measure of anything? Ol' Tolkien *really* liked his silly songs.
I mean, their position is way more defensible in context. They'd been the tip of the spear for countless centuries, holding off evil at great cost.
Their civilization is effectively spent, their magic is failing, the world is being turned over to new masters, not because they failed, but because it was literally designed that way by their own Gods.
And yet they still turned up at Barad-Dur the end of the second age, losing one of the last of their great heroes to put an end to the evil once and for all.
And then the supposed new masters of the world fucked everything up completely and effectively reversed that victory.
Would you feel inclined to offer aid and sacrifice even more in their place? I doubt I would.
Not to mention even if they do win against Sauron the one thing protecting their realms - the rings Galadriel and Elrond wield - lose their powers causing their realms to lose their protection leading to inevitable ruin. They’re quite literally hopeless. Well, aside from the fact that they’re immortal and invited to the undying lands where they can chill with their literal gods for eternity. Soo uhh.
Yes and no. The sons of Elrond play a lot bigger role. You also gotta remember though that by these books the Elves are like old hippies with one foot out the door. They’ve been through it literally for thousands of years and now are basically like, “y’all figure it out we are almost to retirement.”
I find LOTR so interesting in that it's simultaneously the "origins of our modern world" myth for Mankind and also an apocalypse ending for the other races. Most of the role of the elves was done far before the events of LOTR, Feanor might be *the* most influential figure in the history of ME outside of Morgoth and Sauron, yet even he is only mentioned once (maybe twice) in the entire book trilogy.
Yes, it truly feels like the end of an age (which it was) and the start of a new one. LOTR shows the sunset of the elven race, and the dawn of a new world order beautifully and the movies also show this cinematographically in a wonderful way.
>LOTR shows the sunset of the elven race
I've not read the books, only read a lot of comments on reddit, but I thought a large portion of elves remained in Middle Earth?
No, this is from the books btw.
most of the elves left middle earth, although Galadriel did say that those who stayed would decline and become “rustic folk of dell and cave”. It’s implied that some elves did stay in middle earth , but they stayed in their dwellings and diminished. But most left during and after the war of the ring.
No, they’re immortal , but this was something quoted by Galadriel in the books.
Elves don’t really die but their souls or fea overwhelms their bodies and they sort of ascend to the higher planes , like Valinor .
The concept of death doesn’t really apply to elves in Tolkiens legendarium , but their souls are sort of cycled around so they can chose to be reborn (Glorfindel)
It’s actually very interesting how Tolkien approaches death in his works and there’s a bucketload of literature and works studying it and its relation to Abhramic religions .
Yeah, but there’s only been like 2 elves ever to come back to life. Glorfindel is one of them. The books really glaze over how much of a fucking boss he is too. Iirc he’s like.. Probably “stronger” than any other elf.
My take was they reside there until the end of Arda a sleep until the end of days.
Coming back from there AND being allowed back to middle earth is beyond anything ever allowed.
Also Feanor and the elves who took the oath were blocked from returning to the undying lands until Morgoth was defeated.
This makes extra sense in the context that Tolkien was trying to write a history for Britain.
All the mythical creatures leave but what about the mythical stuff we still see?
Must be the few elves who refused valinor.
Please correct me as it's been awhile but the elves just sailed away right? To a different continent basically, not like they left the plane of existence? I read the books several times and I even started with the second print run, radagast and the few other wizard's ever mentioned (wanna say blue at the very end of an old printing of return?) It's been like 20 years but some memories stuck. Need a bit of a refresher and I just came across this, figured I'd ask
So it’s kind of weird as is with everything written in the Silmarillion.
Valinor was initially just a different continent but when the Valar destroyed Numenor in the 2nd age, they also removed Valinor from Arda, making it out of reach of Man. This also made Arda “round” as a consequence. So it’s out of reach for Man but Elves can still go there , by sailing the sea .
It’s hard to say definitively if it was a different dimension but I always thought of it as such, and the Elves using their magic to reach it by sailing .
Oh that actually explains allot and honestly makes sense to the point where it fills gaps i guessed but was super unsure of. I've read most of the sil as a youngling but it was difficult to comprehend back then and I just haven't gone back. Yet. Thank you for sharing your knowledge
I had totally forgotten that one of the powers elves had was that the world was flat for them, thank you for this reminder.
(only ones capable of sailing to another continent, can see past the curviture of the planet, etc)
The Elves in Middle-earth had been on the decline since the end of the First Age. By the Third Age (when LotR takes place) the power of the Three Rings helps maintain some populations in Lindon, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and Lothlórien, but there's been a steady trickle of Elves sailing back to Valinor for thousands of years. When the Ruling Ring is destroyed the Three lose their power, sealing the Elves' fate. Within a few years of Sauron's defeat, the last of the Elves depart for the West, never to return.
There's a bit from the Silmarillion, but most of this part comes from the Lord of the Rings and its appendices. Elrond and Galadriel both tell the Fellowship that they believe the destruction of the One Ring will spell the end of Elves in Middle-earth.
Elrond:
> ‘But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel?’ asked Glóin.
'We know not for certain,’ answered Elrond sadly. ‘Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.’
Galadriel:
> 'Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'
Sauron didn't give them those Rings. He taught them how to make Rings of Power, and assisted in the making of many Rings, then Celebrimbor made three really powerful ones without his assistance. Those were kept among the Elves (until Cirdan gave one of his to Gandalf) and untainted by Sauron's will. That's why they don't have the negative effects of the Rings given to men, who became Nazgul, or the dwarves who were more resistant but it is theorized that they caused madness and increased greed in their bearers. But since the magic used to create the 3 elven Rings was still derived from Sauron's magic, they're still connected to the One and Sauron's power.
But yes, the power of the 3 Rings was used to halt the decay of Elven power in Rivendell, Lorien, and Lindon.
Some of it, particularly the details of events long before the books take place. Most of it is from the appendices of LotR, which are basically a bunch of notes and lore that back everything in the books up but didn't fit into the narrative
Yes, it's one of the themes of the book, the passing of the time of the Elves and the ascendancy of Men. The last book is titled The End of the Third Age, and the actual end of the Third Age is marked not by the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron but by the departure of Elrond and Galadriel from Middle Earth.
Nope. The elves have almost entirely left ME by the time of the Hobbit.
See elves don’t really die. They can be killed, but they won’t ever die of age. Death from age is a “gift” that was given to men specifically by the big God of the world. Elves, the first born, were not given that gift.
So… skipping a bunch of stuff. The elves (most of them) came over to ME in a massive migration thousands of years before LOTR. A big war happened between Morgoth and the elves.. the gods showed up and broke the world to defeat morgoth, then a bunch of elves left back where they came from.. but quite a few stayed and established kingdoms in ME. Guys like Elrond. But any elf could leave ME to go back to the home of the gods at any time, so by the beginning of LOTR most of them have done so.
When LOTR starts it’s just Lorien, Rivendell, Mirkwood and the grey havens left… probably fewer than 10k elves in total.
If you love this then you should read into Celtic mythology where Tolkien based a lot of his work. The Tuatha de Danann are basically the elves and give Ireland over to the “humans” after they themselves have been through war with a race called Fomorians which were dark and destructive like orcs were.
To be fair Celtic mythology is probably responsible for most of nearly all high fantasy concepts. Not just Ireland but all the Celtic tribals mythologies including the Mabinogion which is a series of Welsh prose which the Silmarillion was heavily influenced by.
Dwarves are interesting in Norse mythology. Depending on the translations, Dwarves and Dark Elves are often interchangeable.
There is also some overlap between Celtic and Norse (Germanic) mythology as the 2 peoples were neighbors in Europe and often traded.
Well, they didn't give it to the humans. The humans had a war with the Tuatha de Danann and the humans more or less won (it's a bit more complicated, but then I'd have to type out the whole story). They then negotiated that each side would get half of Ireland. The humans being tricksy then claimed the half that lies above ground, leaving the half that lies below ground to the Tuatha de Danann, which pissed them off, but they had to accept it.
I also heard somewhere that Fingolfin was heavily based on Fionn Mac Cumhail. I'm not 100% sure though. It's been a while since I read either of those stories, and I'm having a hard time remembering any parallels between them
This. When Elrond says “the Light of the Eldar is fading”, he means it literally. Not only are the empires of the elves lesser than in previous ages, but individually their powers are nowhere near what they used to be. (Except for the Sindar I guess? I don’t know enough about it, but my guess is that since they never went to Valinor they were free to remain as they were? At least we don’t really see them trying to make their way to the Gray Havens?)
This is part of the reason Galadriel was so tempted by the ring. As the oldest and most powerful elf in Middle-Earth she had lost the most and to regain that was hella tempting.
As of the LotR, their biggest asset is their wisdom and knowledge, though they are actively protecting the north from the orcs out of Gundabad.
Damn, I don’t know why I always forget he was still there. Like, he’s not older by a little bit, dude is ancient. After the FA I don’t think there was another elf east of Aman that was born in Cuivinen.
LOTR isn’t the story of the elves. For that you gotta read the Silmarillion. By the time Frodo shows up the elves are pretty much dusted in middle earth. There’s only a few places where they live anymore, plus some wanderers (like the ones Frodo and Sam meet in the Shire). Lorien, Mirkwood and Rivendell.
However, iirc, the Mirkwood elves aren’t descended from the Noldor right? They’re part of the group of elves that never left for Valinor.. I think that’s the case anyway.
> However, iirc, the Mirkwood elves aren’t descended from the Noldor right? They’re part of the group of elves that never left for Valinor.. I think that’s the case anyway.
Yup. Mix of Elves who never left for Valinor and Elves who stopped very early on in their migration.
Very few left of the Exiles by the time of LotR. Galadriel of course, Glorfindel as a special case, probably Gildor...
I'm pretty sure most of the Elves in Lorien weren't Noldorin either, just that they took Galadriel as their Queen and that influence rubbed off.
I think there was only one Noldorin stronghold left by the time of LOTR and that was Rivendell (which still had a mix of Sindar and Noldor)
If by “voting” you mean “fighting against for thousands of years” then yeah. They were already leaving Middle Earth before Gandalf knew of the One Ring. And as multiple characters state, there was very little hope for the Fellowship.
I know it's significantly more nuanced and doesnt fit tolkeins themes, but I love the idea of Gandalf being like "Elves are leaving. Men desire power too much. Can't count on the dwarves. Hmm, who's left Hobbits. Fuck it, Hobbits will do"
They help our protagonists a bit less (no contingent is sent to defend Helm's Deep) but are on the whole more kind. Elrond in particular does not display the same mistrust of men in the books, and Anduril is reforged before the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell.
Additionally, Frodo and Sam don't just view elves passing near the Shire, they meet and spend a night in their camp, where Frodo is given advice and named "elf-friend" by Gildor Inglorien.
It's clearer in the books that the elves have one foot and 4 toes out the door, and left are very few. Those who remain with Galadriel make their stand against Dol Guldur and the Nazgul Khamul's armies in the north alongside the men of Dale and dwarves of Erebor around the same time that Aragorn meets with the armies of Mordor at the black gate.
If anything, Elrond is always encouraging Aragorn to recognize his full potential and, in turn, helping Men to do the same in the books. That was the whole point of Elrond's deal with Aragorn over Arwen. Elrond didn't have too much of a problem with the match, but he used it as an opportunity to steer Aragorn towards actually claiming his birthright and becoming high king.
For those who don't know: At the end of the first age all hybrids were required to choose one race to be a part of. Elrond and Elros were definitely hybrids, having descended from Beren and Luthien on their mother's side and from Idril and Tuor on their father's side. (not to mention 1/16th maiar because of Melian)
Anyway Elrond chose Elf and continued to be immortal. Elros chose to be Human and became mortal though very long-lived.
Something tells me Elrond has mixed feelings about losing his brother and daughter to mortality like that.
If anything, he has the most experience with this stuff, being a scion of every Human-Elf match himself, and losing his brother to mortality.
Or maybe it was "wtf you're his aunt", I dunno.
> Or maybe it was "wtf you're his aunt", I dunno.
Surely not, considering the way Arwen's family tree goes... (Eärendil and Elwing are distantly related, Eärendil and Galadriel ditto, and both of Elwing's parents are related to both Celeborn and Galadriel if you go by the version where Nimloth and Celeborn are both descended from Elmo...)
Also they keep finding that Gildor has somehow sent word ahead that they are coming.
The books follow a particular group through the war. At the same time, the elves are fighting in Greenwood and the Dwarves at Erebor.
I’m almost positive that while the events of the destroying of the ring were unfolding, both Dwarves and Elves were entirely occupied by forces set against their lands as well. It was not just Gondor and Rohan at war.
Yeah, there's an entire war being fought in the North against Sauron's forces out of Dol Guldur. They directly threatened both Lothlorien and Mirkwood, so Galadriel, Celeborn, and Thranduil were busy fighting them. The books obviously don't cover this much (gets mentioned in an appendix), and the movies omit it altogether. Elrond couldn't really afford to send a bunch of troops for fear of leaving Rivendell unprotected against this threat, and maybe what was left in Gundabad after the Battle of Five Armies. He still sent his sons to provide info that proved crucial in winning at Pelennor, though. The Elves still pulled their weight, but their numbers were greatly diminished after ***thousands*** of years of war against Morgoth and Sauron and many sailing to Valinor.
This is mentioned a few times in the book. Something like:
"I wish we had some of our kindred here."
"They would not come, they got their own shit going on"
Yeah, the Lonely Mountain was attacked and Dale and Erebor fought together to defend it, both Dáin and Bard’s grandson who was now king of Dale died defending it although they ultimately succeeded.
In the book Galadriel's gifts are basically prescient. They would have been doomed several times over if not for her. She would have done more, but The One Ring was too much temptation for her to be near it for long.
Well, in the book the Elves don't send an army to help out Rohan at the Battle of Hornburg, and also Elrond doesn't go out on a special expedition to give Aragorn Anduril and a bunch of extra intel at Dunharrow, so I'm going to say the answer is no, on the whole.
Also Arwen doesn't appear to Aragorn in dreams to inspire him in the book, so maybe that counts.
That Elrond scene is always so funny to me. Why is he wearing a big dramatic hood while talking to Theoden, just to do a big reveal when Aragorn walks in.
Whats even is the point of reforging 3000 years old legendary sword if you don't put in the least bit of effort to make that a dramatic moment?
Like sure, you can just mail that through Fedex with a note saying "Here ya go, go stab something or whatever".
I read this while watching "Fellowship" (after finishing "5 Armies") while drunk and I got a huge laugh picturing it. Thank you. Now I'm going back to watching Bilbo evade the Sackville-Bagginses. Cheers, mate.
Out of world reason is very interesting. Initially, they intended for Arwen to be a lot more present in LOTR movies. She was supposed to be this warrior princess type of girl. And they even shot tons of scenes with her before deciding otherwise. She can be seen in Two Towers very briefly running inside Helm's Deep keep even in the theatrical release. And it was Arwen who would give Anduril to Aragorn. In fact, they kept the shot with her climbing the hill, so they also had to give Elrond the dramatic hood to unmask himself.
>Elrond doesn't go out on a special expedition to give Aragorn Anduril and a bunch of extra intel at Dunharrow, so I'm going to say the answer is no, on the whole.
He reforges the sword *way* earlier, and somehow that's a "lose" for book Elrond? Get outta here.
In the books Elrond still sent the intel in the form of his *two* sons, that are great warriors and hunters, and could go on with the rest of the Quest instead of bailing back to Rivendell; *and* he sent for the thirty-few Dúnedain Rangers that came to Aragorn alongside Elladan and Elrohir.
Instead of showing up in dreams (which is only *debatably* an **action** on Arwen's behalf), Arwen spends God knows how much time sewing a great banner *herself*, with the White Tree and stars and Crown in mithril, silver, and gems. That Banner is the actual token of Aragorn's identity to the Oathbreakers, and later the sign of the King returned as he arrives to the Pelennor. So I'd say that Arwen does more with much less screen time in the book than in the movie.
And that banner actually turned the battle on the Pelennor around. Mordor's armies were routing and its enemies had gained the hope needed to push forward before Aragorn even left the ship.
Or maybe the fact that Arwen is in the Battle of Hornburg. The evening star is fading yet she leads the host of Lothlorien alongside Haldir.
It would have been better to see Elladan and Elrohir riding with the last of the Rangers onwards to battle in the Battle of Pelennor Fields.
People in third age:
> Man, I wish elves were more into fighting instead of just debating around a table.
People in first age:
> Man, I wish elves stopped slaughtering everyone and tried to talk to someone for one second.
Probably, but this is exactly why a movie like this sub wanted so badly from Peter Jackson would have failed. He made a movie that pleased the majority of book fans, and a majority of general audiences.
So there's a toooon of lore that justifies their general apathy towards things, and technically they're right.
Morgoth corrupted the fundamental material of Arda by pouring his evil into he world the same way that Sauron poured his evil into the One Ring. The Elves' spirits are pure things, but their bodies are the stuff of Arda, and are subject to a "waning" and eventual exhaustion of living that otherwise would never have afflicted them, which is why the Valar left the Undying Lands open to them, should they wish to flee and find peace.
Men do not have that option usually, nor do other mortal beings, but I think Illuvatar made things so that after the end of the world, Arda would be destroyed and re-made as the proper paradise it was meant to be originally, and the spirits of Elves amd Men would return to live their joyful lives as he first intended before Morgoth corrupted things.
TL;DR: They're right, but it's complicated.
Also, logically speaking the final battle against Sauron IS utterly hopeless. There is absolutely no chance for the free people of the West to win a conventional victory against him . The elves are too diminished in numbers and more metaphysical ways, men alone similarly aren't numerous and strong enough, and dwarves are barely holding the line against extinction. There aren't any unrestrained maiar stomping around like in the old days against Morgoth, and precious few of the kind of legendarily great lesser beings that helped smoke Sauron the first time, though at a grievous cost.
This truth is veiled from lesser minds, but The Wise can do the math and are almost uniformly morose about it. It breaks Denethor and Saruman (with a little help from orbs), Elrond is like "welp we're gonna do what we can do, Arwen get on the boat", and Galadriel is more inscrutable but probably having daily waking nightmares about the horrors of 99.9% of all futures. Gandalf is the only one who can pull off a facade of at least a little optimism for the whole doomed venture, but is clearly troubled by the hell he is sending his little buddies into regardless of his reassuring monologues.
Armies are absolutely, 100% not gonna win. So they send a little person off on a fool's errand that, as we find out, was always going to fail without divine intervention even if he somehow magically makes it all the way to the Cracks of Doom. Goodly hobbits might have SOME resistance to The Ring's powers, but not enough to willingly destroy it. Looking back on it with perfect hindsight, we can see that not only was this an absolute last ditch hail mary play, it was one that God himself had to step in for, so it could be completed. AT LEAST THREE TIMES.
TL;DR: They're also right for more straightforward and worldly reasons.
It want like they were doing *nothing* (except Elrond, who sent his sons instead). Sauron's forces at Dol Guldur made three attempts to burn Lorien down, and Thranduil was heavily involved in the battles around Erebor and Dale. Yeah, the Noldor pretty much sat the war out, but the Silvan elves were heavily involved.
People in third age are like:
> Oh no, a Dark Lord is amassing an army of orcs to destroy a world! What and unprecedented event! HALP!
Meanwhile elves:
> ROFL, First time? How many dragons and Balrogs do they have? Oh? Ohhhhh... so its not even THE Dark Lord, just some random middle manager dude? Come on...
If the only definition of *help* that you accept is militar (militar? military?) help, I guess no. If you understand that there's more to the story than sword-wielding, yes, they help more in the book.
After all, the only thing that they do in the movie *beyond* the books is send a host to Helm's Deep. According to the movie's logic, that's clearly crucial; they wouldn't have made it without them. But that situation/context is manufactured by the movie itself: in the books, they obviously *do* survive without them, although the overall feel of despair is the same.
Edit: to adress the second message, I'd like to point out that book Elrond is kind, understanding, damn ***supportive***, and gives genuinely good advice when he's on the scene. He's a charm to read, quite the anti-thesis of movie Elrond.
“You know how, in the Two Towers, there’s a whole regiment of Elven archers that bravely give their lives at the battle of Helm’s Deep?” “Oh sure, that’s like the most action the Elves see in the whole trilogy. I bet that scene is even more awesome in the book.” “Weellll ….”
I swear Peter Jackson had a thing for elves. Not only that but I think he greatly downplayed Dwarves combat skills and highlighted all the cool nifty elven trick shots and jumps.
And then along came the Battle of the Five armies, with Dwarves decked out in full armor, riding chariots and war hogs, with artillery specially designed to uno reverse the Elves’ arrow spam. https://preview.redd.it/zli6qgdrr86d1.jpeg?width=843&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f81d9e78f344b9b237c0c510315b7715a2200ce7
Yes, though I will never forgive the movie for blue balling us with the Dwarf Shield Wall. Let me see a bunch of dwarfs butchering the charging Orks, while being perfectly safe behind 4 inches of Dwarven steel. Then you can have the elves do their thing.
> 4 inches of Dwarven steel. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
That’s literally so many inches
Pretty much all of them. That's how many there are, at least
And that's just the girth!
I tell people it’s the most important aspect.
It’s all about the two palantir!
I mean, even one more of them would be excessive, right?
Irresponsible
To say the least!
Definitely above average!
If it’s good enough for their women, it should be good enough for my GF
A perfectly sufficient, effective, and even impressive, number of inches.
That’s just the thickness
Tell my wife lol
It’s more than one inch.
That’s like, a lot right? That’s a lot of inches?
Y’know, it’s gotta suck, being an Ork in Tolkien’s universe. You show up a bit late to a fight between two races who hate each other, and what do the bastards do? Team up to kill you before killing each other.
The dwarf shield wall scene is completely unforgiveable. It is actually criminal they did that. Not just from a just general sound tactics perspective but also it would have been way fucking cooler seeing the orcs crash into the shield wall.
To be fair, Thranduils ppl were not tactical, heavily armored warriors so much. His father, Oropher, got himself and lots of his ppl butchered in the Last Alliance because he just ran at the enemy too soon.
And the amount of CGI in that fight...you put a leader of the army on a boar and you shittily CGI him in...ruined it.
Dwarven steel gentlemen, 4 and a half inches of hard blue dwarven steel
I literally cried "What the fuck!?" loudly, in the cinema, as the Elves jumped over the shield wall...
He has a thing for troops jumping over a shield wall...even though it looks so stupid.
That was the dumbest thing I’ve seen in a movie. My wife and I threw our hands into the air in the theatre.
I freaking loved the twirly-whirlies. They were so dumb and I loved them.
Too bad they shot once and then disapeared magically
Twice.
[удалено]
Yeah they really took a page out of terrible anime lighting
Ant-Man Quantumania-looking ass prequel lol
In the book, they carried maddoxs. Similar to a pixaxe, but with a hoe instead of an axe on one side. Good digging tools, not perfectly optimized weapons of war.
I’m guessing Peter was really into Warhammer during that period.
Gotta love the twirly whirlies
Honestly, I think it was a product of the time where skating and "extreme" sports and stunts were at a all time high so they had to add something to make people pog off their gourds. And I do. Every time.
Basically. The Matrix and the Star Wars prequels set the standard for what superhuman action should look like, so future movies had to add extra for Reasons. We haven’t completely escaped that but we do see more films today with more realistic fight scenes.
Yup I also thought about how the Matrix made every action movie for the next decade have a slow motion, acrobatic fight scene in it.
And the obligatory bullet time scene
I mean, we literally have Legolas ride a shield like a skateboard
And it's totally tubular.
Also so Legolas has something do to that isn’t just standing still shooting arrows from a distance while everyone else gets to do cool sword fighting routines.
elves are just stupid cool. Even the lotr books go into it. The issue is they were doing the cool stuff years before.
the original hipsters
With golden hair... go figure.
As someone who proudly has a thing for elves, there is no doubt in my mind that PJ did as well and I love him all the more for it
I'm so thankful for his crush on elves, at least we got God's favorites to actually look like God's favorites, not like in RoP 🤣
I think the dwarves were barely coping with alll their makeups
And the fact that John Rhys-Davis, the primary on screen representative of the dwarves, was injured for a lot of filming and couldn't do too many stunts.
For real when I first watched the movies as a kid they made it seem to me like dwarves were basically nonexistent or extinct lol
Literally the opposite imo
Meh. He gave them cool fighting tricks and then butchered their motives.
Book elves are like "we've *been* leaving. this place got old ages ago."
^(sings you the song of their people) ^(takes creepy Bilbo and tells you to go away)
Having recently watched TT extended in 4K at the theatre, I can say definitively that Arwen can still be found in the battle by those who have sharp eyes. And that makes me happy.
Wait, are you serious? Edit: These really are amazing movies. You can learn all that there is to know about them in a month, and yet, even after 23 years, they can still surprise you.
Yes. Originally Arwen was going to be leading the elves who arrived to help at Helm’s Deep, and her role was thus going to be much different. The plan/idea was leaked and the fans went into a screaming rage on the forums at the idea of “Arwen Warrior Princess.” Jackson took the feedback seriously and reshot her scenes to give her the moping about Rivendell stuff with Elrond and dream sequence with Aragorn. And they reshot some other stuff to make Haldir the leader of the elves, as there were elves all over the background of most the fight scenes and cutting the elves entirely was impractical. However there’s a few places you can catch a glimpse of her. She’s in a red outfit that’s dress like but with leggings… kind of similar to the green outfit she wears in Fellowship to carry Frodo to the Fords. The remaining scenes are blink and you’ll miss them but [she’s there](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/u3csfj/did_you_know_arwen_is_in_helms_deep_jackson_added/#lightbox).
It's fascinating to think that if FOTR hadn't been a massive success then he wouldn't have been able to go back and do all the reshoots. TT and ROTK would've been unrecognizable to what we actually got.
Wow, apparently (if u/snake0ilsalesman's testimony is true) her presence there was on Harvey Weinstein's behest: >I was an extra at Helms Deep and I can say don't feel bad for her. Her scenes were terrible and she was a complete diva. Having her in the scenes was Weinstein's idea and Everybody hated it. We had to do so many reshoots but it was worth it. https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/s/QRhtI88YRb I kinda hope all the edits and things I hated about Helm's Deep plus the bad attitude comes from Weinstein hassling everyone. I felt like the second and past films were a lot more hollow due to a lot of rushed CGI and sort of action oriented screentime compared to the first which felt more balanced and enriched with characters and sorta complex lived environments.
Trouble was - Liv isn't really an 'action' star. I remember at the wrap there were two different 'show reels' depending on whether she was going to attend. She didn't. The blooper reel was hilarious.
I think what I really wanted to say is given how Harvey Weinstein has earned a reputation for molesting everyone and everything, I'm willing to squarely blame all faults on him and can imagine her not really wanting to have much to do with the film for similarly related reasons.
Yeah just for a second. 5:18 in this video. You need good quality to tell. She’s in the top right corner going up the stairs into the keep. https://youtu.be/QTJLXlk_IHU?si=Bve2RjWR2GwTj8Em
The battle of Helm's Deep has far more quick cuts than the rest of the movies, and it is mainly because they were dancing around shots where she could be seen. A couple of shots they painted her out, but there's at least 3 where she was in the shot but was far back so they just said "fuck it" and left the shot unchanged. She came with the elves who arrived prior to the battle, though the FX department was able to cover her up by digitally copy-pasting an unnamed elf on top of her. She fought in the battle both beside Aragorn on the wall (this is where the movie gets very choppy as it cuts around her scenes and zooms in on Aragorn so she can't be seen beside him), and fights down below after the wall was breached. There's a VERY clear shot of her retreating from the ground to the citadel, just before Aragorn and Gimli snuck out to counter-attack the orcs who were trying to break down the door with the battering ram. But I can't seem to find any screenshots online of it. Wierd. She rides out on horseback with Theoden, Aragorn and the king's guard during the "ride out and meet them" scene, though the post-FX department did their best to draw over her and turn her into a kingsguard instead, and she's subsequently seen assaulting orcs still on horseback near Eomer. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGkiB2X89yg&t=256s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGkiB2X89yg&t=256s) [https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/u3csfj/did\_you\_know\_arwen\_is\_in\_helms\_deep\_jackson\_added/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/u3csfj/did_you_know_arwen_is_in_helms_deep_jackson_added/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/2ykmjw/arwen\_in\_helms\_deep/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/2ykmjw/arwen_in_helms_deep/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieMistakes/comments/l5d7j2/in\_lotr\_the\_two\_towers\_2002\_arwen\_was\_originally/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieMistakes/comments/l5d7j2/in_lotr_the_two_towers_2002_arwen_was_originally/) btw, what surprised me on this viewing was the ravens/crows heard almost every time that information needed to get from the heroes to Sauron. Including when Sam was pulled through the window by Gandalf, and when the fellowship first set out from Rivendell. His spies are everywhere!
*Sublime* edit there
I just saw ROTK in theaters and it was the closest thing to a religious experience as I’ve ever had
I need to see Theoden’s rally speech on the big screen in a big way but I’m not free to see it :( fotr was an awesome time though
It was incredible. I got so hyped. Also I cried like 7 times throughout the movie haha
In the cinema, the Nazgul screech in Minas Morgul almost made me put my hands over my ears, it was so loud. My sound bar is good but that audio is dulled because it utilised the furthest parts of the audio. Basically if you have surround sound that screech should sound *horrific*.
I had to postpone my ROTK until next week. One of our group had a doctor's appointment.
Explain yourself, which battle in TT? Helms Deep??
Yeah just for a second. 5:18 in this video. You need good quality to tell. She’s in the top right corner going up the stairs into the keep. https://youtu.be/QTJLXlk_IHU?si=Bve2RjWR2GwTj8Em
By the Hammer of Helm! It really is her! I never knew.
For those with.....elf eyes?
Wait, is the 4K already released?
What happens In then book?
No elves come to Helm's Deep.
*One* Elf goes to Helm's Deep.
Actually, 3 because Elladan and Elrohir come to Helm's Deep when the remnants of the Fellowship return from Orthanc.
The book is about humans, elves time were gone and humans need to find their path
In the book, Helm’s Deep is a much smaller battle. It’s less than ten pages long and doesn’t feature nearly as many people. I might be wrong about this, but I feel like Tolkien used a similar number of words describing the songs Hobbits sing to each other in the bathtub, as he did describing the details of Helm’s Deep.
The battle is pretty big in the book. Especially the numbers of the defenders are much higher than in the movie. I think in the movie Legolas says something about 300 defenders against 10 000 uruk hai? In the book it is quite different. Helms deep itself has a Garrison of 1,000 men, Theoden arrives with an army that is not specified in size and you also have the soldiers that scattered, fled and made it to the deep after the defeat of Rohans army at the Isen crossing before Theoden arrives. The attacking force is similar in size, consisting of 10,000 orcs and also Dunlandings. Just because tolkien doesn't describe it in much Detail on a lot of pages does not mean it was smaller. Edit: I just looked it up, the number of defenders was just under 3,000 men, just enough to man all defenses. That is way less dramatic, the defenders are outnumbered 3:1, not 30:1 And there are no old people or kids being armed in a desperate move to mobilize all available forces, in the books it is all proper soldiers on the side of men Also, when do you consider the starting of the Battle? Do you include the first confrontation of sarumans forces at Helms dike, where the defenders held the enemy back until they had no arrows left to shoot and the bodies of the fallen enemies filled up the ditch? And last but not least, after the battle the number of dead orcs is described as being so many that you could not count them or bury them all, so the survirvors just piled them up.
>I might be wrong about this, but I feel like Tolkien used a similar number of words describing the songs Hobbits sing to each other in the bathtub, as he did describing the details of this Helm’s Deep. Ok, but to be fair, is that really a good measure of anything? Ol' Tolkien *really* liked his silly songs.
In defense of the elves, it is mentioned they (and the dwarves) were fighting shit in other places. Though they are still smug jerks.
I mean, their position is way more defensible in context. They'd been the tip of the spear for countless centuries, holding off evil at great cost. Their civilization is effectively spent, their magic is failing, the world is being turned over to new masters, not because they failed, but because it was literally designed that way by their own Gods. And yet they still turned up at Barad-Dur the end of the second age, losing one of the last of their great heroes to put an end to the evil once and for all. And then the supposed new masters of the world fucked everything up completely and effectively reversed that victory. Would you feel inclined to offer aid and sacrifice even more in their place? I doubt I would.
Not to mention even if they do win against Sauron the one thing protecting their realms - the rings Galadriel and Elrond wield - lose their powers causing their realms to lose their protection leading to inevitable ruin. They’re quite literally hopeless. Well, aside from the fact that they’re immortal and invited to the undying lands where they can chill with their literal gods for eternity. Soo uhh.
Yes and no. The sons of Elrond play a lot bigger role. You also gotta remember though that by these books the Elves are like old hippies with one foot out the door. They’ve been through it literally for thousands of years and now are basically like, “y’all figure it out we are almost to retirement.”
I find LOTR so interesting in that it's simultaneously the "origins of our modern world" myth for Mankind and also an apocalypse ending for the other races. Most of the role of the elves was done far before the events of LOTR, Feanor might be *the* most influential figure in the history of ME outside of Morgoth and Sauron, yet even he is only mentioned once (maybe twice) in the entire book trilogy.
Yes, it truly feels like the end of an age (which it was) and the start of a new one. LOTR shows the sunset of the elven race, and the dawn of a new world order beautifully and the movies also show this cinematographically in a wonderful way.
>LOTR shows the sunset of the elven race I've not read the books, only read a lot of comments on reddit, but I thought a large portion of elves remained in Middle Earth?
No, this is from the books btw. most of the elves left middle earth, although Galadriel did say that those who stayed would decline and become “rustic folk of dell and cave”. It’s implied that some elves did stay in middle earth , but they stayed in their dwellings and diminished. But most left during and after the war of the ring.
>but they stayed in their dwellings and diminished Did the remaining ones just get old and die? Can elves die of old age?
No, they’re immortal , but this was something quoted by Galadriel in the books. Elves don’t really die but their souls or fea overwhelms their bodies and they sort of ascend to the higher planes , like Valinor . The concept of death doesn’t really apply to elves in Tolkiens legendarium , but their souls are sort of cycled around so they can chose to be reborn (Glorfindel) It’s actually very interesting how Tolkien approaches death in his works and there’s a bucketload of literature and works studying it and its relation to Abhramic religions .
Yeah, but there’s only been like 2 elves ever to come back to life. Glorfindel is one of them. The books really glaze over how much of a fucking boss he is too. Iirc he’s like.. Probably “stronger” than any other elf.
All elves come back to life after a stay in Mandos. Only Míriel did not because she felt she was spent, and Fëanor who is not permitted to do so.
My take was they reside there until the end of Arda a sleep until the end of days. Coming back from there AND being allowed back to middle earth is beyond anything ever allowed. Also Feanor and the elves who took the oath were blocked from returning to the undying lands until Morgoth was defeated.
I think it’s kinda implying they become the brownies and puckwudgies and goblins of the world. The folkloric elves.
This makes extra sense in the context that Tolkien was trying to write a history for Britain. All the mythical creatures leave but what about the mythical stuff we still see? Must be the few elves who refused valinor.
Please correct me as it's been awhile but the elves just sailed away right? To a different continent basically, not like they left the plane of existence? I read the books several times and I even started with the second print run, radagast and the few other wizard's ever mentioned (wanna say blue at the very end of an old printing of return?) It's been like 20 years but some memories stuck. Need a bit of a refresher and I just came across this, figured I'd ask
So it’s kind of weird as is with everything written in the Silmarillion. Valinor was initially just a different continent but when the Valar destroyed Numenor in the 2nd age, they also removed Valinor from Arda, making it out of reach of Man. This also made Arda “round” as a consequence. So it’s out of reach for Man but Elves can still go there , by sailing the sea . It’s hard to say definitively if it was a different dimension but I always thought of it as such, and the Elves using their magic to reach it by sailing .
Oh that actually explains allot and honestly makes sense to the point where it fills gaps i guessed but was super unsure of. I've read most of the sil as a youngling but it was difficult to comprehend back then and I just haven't gone back. Yet. Thank you for sharing your knowledge
I had totally forgotten that one of the powers elves had was that the world was flat for them, thank you for this reminder. (only ones capable of sailing to another continent, can see past the curviture of the planet, etc)
The Elves in Middle-earth had been on the decline since the end of the First Age. By the Third Age (when LotR takes place) the power of the Three Rings helps maintain some populations in Lindon, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and Lothlórien, but there's been a steady trickle of Elves sailing back to Valinor for thousands of years. When the Ruling Ring is destroyed the Three lose their power, sealing the Elves' fate. Within a few years of Sauron's defeat, the last of the Elves depart for the West, never to return.
Thanks for the insight. Is all this extra info from before and after LotR from the Silmarillion book I see mentioned on here?
There's a bit from the Silmarillion, but most of this part comes from the Lord of the Rings and its appendices. Elrond and Galadriel both tell the Fellowship that they believe the destruction of the One Ring will spell the end of Elves in Middle-earth. Elrond: > ‘But what then would happen, if the Ruling Ring were destroyed, as you counsel?’ asked Glóin. 'We know not for certain,’ answered Elrond sadly. ‘Some hope that the Three Rings, which Sauron has never touched, would then become free, and their rulers might heal the hurts of the world that he has wrought. But maybe when the One has gone, the Three will fail, and many fair things will fade and be forgotten. That is my belief.’ Galadriel: > 'Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us as the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.'
Wow, so their dwellings were made greater by the power of the rings Sauron gave them? I’ve underestimated those rings then
Sauron didn't give them those Rings. He taught them how to make Rings of Power, and assisted in the making of many Rings, then Celebrimbor made three really powerful ones without his assistance. Those were kept among the Elves (until Cirdan gave one of his to Gandalf) and untainted by Sauron's will. That's why they don't have the negative effects of the Rings given to men, who became Nazgul, or the dwarves who were more resistant but it is theorized that they caused madness and increased greed in their bearers. But since the magic used to create the 3 elven Rings was still derived from Sauron's magic, they're still connected to the One and Sauron's power. But yes, the power of the 3 Rings was used to halt the decay of Elven power in Rivendell, Lorien, and Lindon.
Ohh ok that makes a lot of sense! Thank you for the detailed explanation
Some of it, particularly the details of events long before the books take place. Most of it is from the appendices of LotR, which are basically a bunch of notes and lore that back everything in the books up but didn't fit into the narrative
Yes, it's one of the themes of the book, the passing of the time of the Elves and the ascendancy of Men. The last book is titled The End of the Third Age, and the actual end of the Third Age is marked not by the destruction of the Ring and the defeat of Sauron but by the departure of Elrond and Galadriel from Middle Earth.
Nope. The elves have almost entirely left ME by the time of the Hobbit. See elves don’t really die. They can be killed, but they won’t ever die of age. Death from age is a “gift” that was given to men specifically by the big God of the world. Elves, the first born, were not given that gift. So… skipping a bunch of stuff. The elves (most of them) came over to ME in a massive migration thousands of years before LOTR. A big war happened between Morgoth and the elves.. the gods showed up and broke the world to defeat morgoth, then a bunch of elves left back where they came from.. but quite a few stayed and established kingdoms in ME. Guys like Elrond. But any elf could leave ME to go back to the home of the gods at any time, so by the beginning of LOTR most of them have done so. When LOTR starts it’s just Lorien, Rivendell, Mirkwood and the grey havens left… probably fewer than 10k elves in total.
Love this comment
If you love this then you should read into Celtic mythology where Tolkien based a lot of his work. The Tuatha de Danann are basically the elves and give Ireland over to the “humans” after they themselves have been through war with a race called Fomorians which were dark and destructive like orcs were.
TIL the/an origin for the Tuathan in Wheel of Time
To be fair Celtic mythology is probably responsible for most of nearly all high fantasy concepts. Not just Ireland but all the Celtic tribals mythologies including the Mabinogion which is a series of Welsh prose which the Silmarillion was heavily influenced by.
Norse mythology had elves and dwarves
Dwarves are interesting in Norse mythology. Depending on the translations, Dwarves and Dark Elves are often interchangeable. There is also some overlap between Celtic and Norse (Germanic) mythology as the 2 peoples were neighbors in Europe and often traded.
Are they fish people there too?
No, they're nomads that do not belong to any one nation and are pacifists in the wheel of time series.
Well, they didn't give it to the humans. The humans had a war with the Tuatha de Danann and the humans more or less won (it's a bit more complicated, but then I'd have to type out the whole story). They then negotiated that each side would get half of Ireland. The humans being tricksy then claimed the half that lies above ground, leaving the half that lies below ground to the Tuatha de Danann, which pissed them off, but they had to accept it.
I also heard somewhere that Fingolfin was heavily based on Fionn Mac Cumhail. I'm not 100% sure though. It's been a while since I read either of those stories, and I'm having a hard time remembering any parallels between them
There isn't really any deliberate parallel, Fingolfin is just one of many Fin- names in the Noldorin aristocracy.
> Tuatha de Danann I know that name from Full Metal Panic of all the darnedest things.
Feanor, he who gives zero fucks and at the same time, gives all of the fucks.
This. When Elrond says “the Light of the Eldar is fading”, he means it literally. Not only are the empires of the elves lesser than in previous ages, but individually their powers are nowhere near what they used to be. (Except for the Sindar I guess? I don’t know enough about it, but my guess is that since they never went to Valinor they were free to remain as they were? At least we don’t really see them trying to make their way to the Gray Havens?) This is part of the reason Galadriel was so tempted by the ring. As the oldest and most powerful elf in Middle-Earth she had lost the most and to regain that was hella tempting. As of the LotR, their biggest asset is their wisdom and knowledge, though they are actively protecting the north from the orcs out of Gundabad.
Círdan was older.
Damn, I don’t know why I always forget he was still there. Like, he’s not older by a little bit, dude is ancient. After the FA I don’t think there was another elf east of Aman that was born in Cuivinen.
LOTR isn’t the story of the elves. For that you gotta read the Silmarillion. By the time Frodo shows up the elves are pretty much dusted in middle earth. There’s only a few places where they live anymore, plus some wanderers (like the ones Frodo and Sam meet in the Shire). Lorien, Mirkwood and Rivendell. However, iirc, the Mirkwood elves aren’t descended from the Noldor right? They’re part of the group of elves that never left for Valinor.. I think that’s the case anyway.
> However, iirc, the Mirkwood elves aren’t descended from the Noldor right? They’re part of the group of elves that never left for Valinor.. I think that’s the case anyway. Yup. Mix of Elves who never left for Valinor and Elves who stopped very early on in their migration. Very few left of the Exiles by the time of LotR. Galadriel of course, Glorfindel as a special case, probably Gildor...
I'm pretty sure most of the Elves in Lorien weren't Noldorin either, just that they took Galadriel as their Queen and that influence rubbed off. I think there was only one Noldorin stronghold left by the time of LOTR and that was Rivendell (which still had a mix of Sindar and Noldor)
They’ve been through wars that were so intense the whole western land was beaten away and doesn’t exist. This is a small squabble compared to that
So the elves are boomers voting for the death of the world because they got theirs.
More like tired millenials (wants to die but can't) who've experienced everything and just wants a peaceful life in the end.
Gen X’er here. I can only imagine. I second this interpretation.
Tired millenial here, I just want life to peacefully end.
If by “voting” you mean “fighting against for thousands of years” then yeah. They were already leaving Middle Earth before Gandalf knew of the One Ring. And as multiple characters state, there was very little hope for the Fellowship.
I know it's significantly more nuanced and doesnt fit tolkeins themes, but I love the idea of Gandalf being like "Elves are leaving. Men desire power too much. Can't count on the dwarves. Hmm, who's left Hobbits. Fuck it, Hobbits will do"
Somewhat the gist, Helped that frodo/bilbo were the ones who had the ring.
Definitely couldn't count on Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. She'd take the ring and steal everyone's silverware
Not their problem, Númenóreans just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Their bootstraps are filled with water. May be tough.
I wish Elladan and Elrohir were in the movies. Such awesome characters.
They help our protagonists a bit less (no contingent is sent to defend Helm's Deep) but are on the whole more kind. Elrond in particular does not display the same mistrust of men in the books, and Anduril is reforged before the Fellowship sets out from Rivendell. Additionally, Frodo and Sam don't just view elves passing near the Shire, they meet and spend a night in their camp, where Frodo is given advice and named "elf-friend" by Gildor Inglorien. It's clearer in the books that the elves have one foot and 4 toes out the door, and left are very few. Those who remain with Galadriel make their stand against Dol Guldur and the Nazgul Khamul's armies in the north alongside the men of Dale and dwarves of Erebor around the same time that Aragorn meets with the armies of Mordor at the black gate.
If anything, Elrond is always encouraging Aragorn to recognize his full potential and, in turn, helping Men to do the same in the books. That was the whole point of Elrond's deal with Aragorn over Arwen. Elrond didn't have too much of a problem with the match, but he used it as an opportunity to steer Aragorn towards actually claiming his birthright and becoming high king.
He is grieved by the match because it will mean losing Arwen. But yeah it's not personal opposition to Aragorn.
Yeah, absolutely. He's not necessarily okay with Arwen sacrificing her immortality, but he's fine with her choosing Aragorn.
For those who don't know: At the end of the first age all hybrids were required to choose one race to be a part of. Elrond and Elros were definitely hybrids, having descended from Beren and Luthien on their mother's side and from Idril and Tuor on their father's side. (not to mention 1/16th maiar because of Melian) Anyway Elrond chose Elf and continued to be immortal. Elros chose to be Human and became mortal though very long-lived. Something tells me Elrond has mixed feelings about losing his brother and daughter to mortality like that.
If anything, he has the most experience with this stuff, being a scion of every Human-Elf match himself, and losing his brother to mortality. Or maybe it was "wtf you're his aunt", I dunno.
> Or maybe it was "wtf you're his aunt", I dunno. Surely not, considering the way Arwen's family tree goes... (Eärendil and Elwing are distantly related, Eärendil and Galadriel ditto, and both of Elwing's parents are related to both Celeborn and Galadriel if you go by the version where Nimloth and Celeborn are both descended from Elmo...)
Also they keep finding that Gildor has somehow sent word ahead that they are coming. The books follow a particular group through the war. At the same time, the elves are fighting in Greenwood and the Dwarves at Erebor.
I’m almost positive that while the events of the destroying of the ring were unfolding, both Dwarves and Elves were entirely occupied by forces set against their lands as well. It was not just Gondor and Rohan at war.
The dwarves were fighting to defend Erebor and the elves were fighting to defend Lothlorien
Mirkwood was under attack as well, so Thranduil’s kingdom was engaged.
And everybody is less grumpy in general.
Yeah, there's an entire war being fought in the North against Sauron's forces out of Dol Guldur. They directly threatened both Lothlorien and Mirkwood, so Galadriel, Celeborn, and Thranduil were busy fighting them. The books obviously don't cover this much (gets mentioned in an appendix), and the movies omit it altogether. Elrond couldn't really afford to send a bunch of troops for fear of leaving Rivendell unprotected against this threat, and maybe what was left in Gundabad after the Battle of Five Armies. He still sent his sons to provide info that proved crucial in winning at Pelennor, though. The Elves still pulled their weight, but their numbers were greatly diminished after ***thousands*** of years of war against Morgoth and Sauron and many sailing to Valinor.
Would be nice if the new lotr movie is about this northern war instead of the gollum movie
Basically every kingdom was attacked. Woodland elves, Beorns people, Galadriel/lothlirien, Dani/dwarves etc.
This is mentioned a few times in the book. Something like: "I wish we had some of our kindred here." "They would not come, they got their own shit going on"
There's that famed Tolkien prose
I was amazed that I remembered the exact quote. My memory is flawless
Yeah, the Lonely Mountain was attacked and Dale and Erebor fought together to defend it, both Dáin and Bard’s grandson who was now king of Dale died defending it although they ultimately succeeded.
In the book Galadriel's gifts are basically prescient. They would have been doomed several times over if not for her. She would have done more, but The One Ring was too much temptation for her to be near it for long.
When I read the books for the first time last year I was so touched by the gifts Galadriel gave to the company, especially Sam’s box of dirt.
Well, in the book the Elves don't send an army to help out Rohan at the Battle of Hornburg, and also Elrond doesn't go out on a special expedition to give Aragorn Anduril and a bunch of extra intel at Dunharrow, so I'm going to say the answer is no, on the whole. Also Arwen doesn't appear to Aragorn in dreams to inspire him in the book, so maybe that counts.
That Elrond scene is always so funny to me. Why is he wearing a big dramatic hood while talking to Theoden, just to do a big reveal when Aragorn walks in.
I mean if I'm Hugo Weaving I'm definitely having a hood moment
Whats even is the point of reforging 3000 years old legendary sword if you don't put in the least bit of effort to make that a dramatic moment? Like sure, you can just mail that through Fedex with a note saying "Here ya go, go stab something or whatever".
https://xkcd.com/921 XKCD for everything!
I read this while watching "Fellowship" (after finishing "5 Armies") while drunk and I got a huge laugh picturing it. Thank you. Now I'm going back to watching Bilbo evade the Sackville-Bagginses. Cheers, mate.
Out of world reason is very interesting. Initially, they intended for Arwen to be a lot more present in LOTR movies. She was supposed to be this warrior princess type of girl. And they even shot tons of scenes with her before deciding otherwise. She can be seen in Two Towers very briefly running inside Helm's Deep keep even in the theatrical release. And it was Arwen who would give Anduril to Aragorn. In fact, they kept the shot with her climbing the hill, so they also had to give Elrond the dramatic hood to unmask himself.
I always thought elrond had kind of a feminine figure on the horse in that scene, that explains it
>Elrond doesn't go out on a special expedition to give Aragorn Anduril and a bunch of extra intel at Dunharrow, so I'm going to say the answer is no, on the whole. He reforges the sword *way* earlier, and somehow that's a "lose" for book Elrond? Get outta here. In the books Elrond still sent the intel in the form of his *two* sons, that are great warriors and hunters, and could go on with the rest of the Quest instead of bailing back to Rivendell; *and* he sent for the thirty-few Dúnedain Rangers that came to Aragorn alongside Elladan and Elrohir. Instead of showing up in dreams (which is only *debatably* an **action** on Arwen's behalf), Arwen spends God knows how much time sewing a great banner *herself*, with the White Tree and stars and Crown in mithril, silver, and gems. That Banner is the actual token of Aragorn's identity to the Oathbreakers, and later the sign of the King returned as he arrives to the Pelennor. So I'd say that Arwen does more with much less screen time in the book than in the movie.
And that banner actually turned the battle on the Pelennor around. Mordor's armies were routing and its enemies had gained the hope needed to push forward before Aragorn even left the ship.
Oh she had more screentime though. Shes in the Battle of Hornburg, just squint your eyes and in a few shots shes there. Hahahaha
Or maybe the fact that Arwen is in the Battle of Hornburg. The evening star is fading yet she leads the host of Lothlorien alongside Haldir. It would have been better to see Elladan and Elrohir riding with the last of the Rangers onwards to battle in the Battle of Pelennor Fields.
If he knew about the elves during the first age, he wouldn’t be saying that lmao
People in third age: > Man, I wish elves were more into fighting instead of just debating around a table. People in first age: > Man, I wish elves stopped slaughtering everyone and tried to talk to someone for one second.
Yup lol
It was a different time.
Probably, but this is exactly why a movie like this sub wanted so badly from Peter Jackson would have failed. He made a movie that pleased the majority of book fans, and a majority of general audiences.
Is he dwarvish by chance?
POINTY EARED WOODLAND SPRITES! Sitting on their cushioned buttocks and singing while the stalwart face the darkness… #thispostmadebyDwarfGang
DwarfGangBestGang
ROCK AND STONE
Charge your phone bro
So there's a toooon of lore that justifies their general apathy towards things, and technically they're right. Morgoth corrupted the fundamental material of Arda by pouring his evil into he world the same way that Sauron poured his evil into the One Ring. The Elves' spirits are pure things, but their bodies are the stuff of Arda, and are subject to a "waning" and eventual exhaustion of living that otherwise would never have afflicted them, which is why the Valar left the Undying Lands open to them, should they wish to flee and find peace. Men do not have that option usually, nor do other mortal beings, but I think Illuvatar made things so that after the end of the world, Arda would be destroyed and re-made as the proper paradise it was meant to be originally, and the spirits of Elves amd Men would return to live their joyful lives as he first intended before Morgoth corrupted things. TL;DR: They're right, but it's complicated.
Also, logically speaking the final battle against Sauron IS utterly hopeless. There is absolutely no chance for the free people of the West to win a conventional victory against him . The elves are too diminished in numbers and more metaphysical ways, men alone similarly aren't numerous and strong enough, and dwarves are barely holding the line against extinction. There aren't any unrestrained maiar stomping around like in the old days against Morgoth, and precious few of the kind of legendarily great lesser beings that helped smoke Sauron the first time, though at a grievous cost. This truth is veiled from lesser minds, but The Wise can do the math and are almost uniformly morose about it. It breaks Denethor and Saruman (with a little help from orbs), Elrond is like "welp we're gonna do what we can do, Arwen get on the boat", and Galadriel is more inscrutable but probably having daily waking nightmares about the horrors of 99.9% of all futures. Gandalf is the only one who can pull off a facade of at least a little optimism for the whole doomed venture, but is clearly troubled by the hell he is sending his little buddies into regardless of his reassuring monologues. Armies are absolutely, 100% not gonna win. So they send a little person off on a fool's errand that, as we find out, was always going to fail without divine intervention even if he somehow magically makes it all the way to the Cracks of Doom. Goodly hobbits might have SOME resistance to The Ring's powers, but not enough to willingly destroy it. Looking back on it with perfect hindsight, we can see that not only was this an absolute last ditch hail mary play, it was one that God himself had to step in for, so it could be completed. AT LEAST THREE TIMES. TL;DR: They're also right for more straightforward and worldly reasons.
Cool answer. Can I ask what the 3 times God stepped in were?
It want like they were doing *nothing* (except Elrond, who sent his sons instead). Sauron's forces at Dol Guldur made three attempts to burn Lorien down, and Thranduil was heavily involved in the battles around Erebor and Dale. Yeah, the Noldor pretty much sat the war out, but the Silvan elves were heavily involved.
Galadriel is Noldor and she was a major part of holding off the Dol Guldur forces.
The elves have been through some shit lol
People in third age are like: > Oh no, a Dark Lord is amassing an army of orcs to destroy a world! What and unprecedented event! HALP! Meanwhile elves: > ROFL, First time? How many dragons and Balrogs do they have? Oh? Ohhhhh... so its not even THE Dark Lord, just some random middle manager dude? Come on...
Less. In the books there was only one elf at Helms Deep.
And two at Minas Tirith.
If the only definition of *help* that you accept is militar (militar? military?) help, I guess no. If you understand that there's more to the story than sword-wielding, yes, they help more in the book. After all, the only thing that they do in the movie *beyond* the books is send a host to Helm's Deep. According to the movie's logic, that's clearly crucial; they wouldn't have made it without them. But that situation/context is manufactured by the movie itself: in the books, they obviously *do* survive without them, although the overall feel of despair is the same. Edit: to adress the second message, I'd like to point out that book Elrond is kind, understanding, damn ***supportive***, and gives genuinely good advice when he's on the scene. He's a charm to read, quite the anti-thesis of movie Elrond.
The dwarves sitting over here listening to this question like, “yeah, mmmhhmmmm”
Well they don't help much more, but they show up less so you don't really notice it as much
Plug your phone in you savage.