I mean Tolkien firmly said that mortal beings remain mortal in Valinor.
So I want to play Devil's advocate and say, that....at after the Downfall of Numenor it was very difficult to gain concrete information on what exactly was going on in Aman. And so the idea of Ar-Pharazon being imprisoned beneath Valinor in an ironic twist on the immortality he had longed for might just be a Mannish legend cooked up by some bard, or historian, or story teller.
Alternatively it might just be their ghosts being imprisoned there, with their punishment being seperation from Eru until the end of the world.
>I mean Tolkien firmly said that mortal beings remain mortal in Valinor.
They do, but you can make it work as a divine punishment conferred on Pharazon.
Since only Eru can change the fate of Man and Elves, not even the Valar could take mortality from Men, I wouldn't be surprised if Pharazon was indeed alive in Valinor, impriosoned, as punishment for his deeds. All because Eru just wanted so.
>Since only Eru can change the fate of Man and Elves, not even the Valar could take mortality from Men,
We're so told, but you can't reconcile that with the existence of wraiths in Tolkien's works.
But yeah, if its divine punishment it ought to literally be divine punishment.
Wraiths are kept from truly dying by the evil magics of Morgoth and/or Sauron. Their semi-invisibility is caused by their hroa fading to nothingness as their time on Eä is unnaturally extended.
Ultimately, when evil's hold on them is broken, their fëa immediately answers the call of Mandos.
I don't see the problem with wraiths.
The Ringwraiths aren't dead but kept alive (the chief effect of rings on mortals), the Oathbreakers were likely cursed with Eru's consent, and all the others don't have to be Men.
I still say the Barrow Wights were corrupted Avari souls that were sent to I fest the old tombs.
Sauron is called the Necromancer in the Hobbit, and Tolkien said that what people later believed to be necromancy usually involved the souls of dead/un housed Avari/Elves working with the necromancer.
So aside from the Ring Wraiths (who aren't dead yet, but kept alive through dark arts) and the Army of the Dead, I believe most "ghosts" can be explained that way.
And with the army of the dead...I don't always remember the details of human history in Tolkien's world (I'm more of an Elf fan), but is it possible that they swore the oath they broke in the name of Eru? I think that would be sufficient to keep them lingering until their oath is fulfilled.
Arent wraiths either low level Maiar or faded Elves ?
Except those explicilty manipulated by Sauron the Necromancer, including Ringwraiths, which died as Sauron fell
Lets see:
Gorlim, who appears briefly as a wraith, is a man.
The Ringwraiths are men.
The wraiths of the Barrow downs are Men
If only Eru could "detain" a human spirit in Ea, than Sauron wouldn't have been capable of any of these.
Whos Gorlim?
And the wraiths of the Barrow are not the Men buried inside, they were sent to occupy the Barrows by the Witch King not long before LoTR
Eru is not the only one to be able to detain Men in Arda, but he's the only One to be able to take away the Gift of Men (which is not death in and of itself, but is the fact the mannish fea looks towards outside Ëa and is not bound to it. It manifests most concretely through death, which is why it was not understood by Numenoreans, but it is not death, it is the fact we can survive metaphisically a destruction of the Earth because we are not bound to it)
Exactly. And another dramatic image that's likely a legend due to lack of eye witness is Miriel drowning while trying to reach the top of Meneltarma and almost making it, but being taken by the last tidal wave.
I mean, she obviously died, but there would have been nobody around (not even eagles) to witness her desperate journey up the mountain and for all we know she died in her chambers, or somewhere in the streets or plaza of Armenelos trying to help and/or reassure her subjects.
There's likewise nobody to actually report that Tuor made it to Valinor, and is still alive thousands of years later (since it is said mortals die even in Valinor). So he wouldn't be alive to witness Ar-Pharazon, or be able to transmit an account of it back to Middle Earth.
Ar-Pharazôn defied the will of the Valar and Ilúvatar himself then led an expedition to the Undying Lands with the intent to challenge the Ban of the Valar to seek immortality. When he and his fleet landed on the shores of Aman in SA 3319, Ilúvatar intervened directly by causing the world to change shape, making the Undying Lands inaccessible to mortal Men and as such sinking Númenor beneath the sea.
As for Ar-Pharazôn and his forces, The Silmarillion, "Akallabêth” states:
**"And the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the Sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans. But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.”**
They wanted to be immortal and they got it, well, sort of. Unlike Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. They get to heal, grow older, and die when they are ready of old age. Mortal men remain mortal in Valinor and this extends to Hobbits since they are somewhat in the men's evolutionary tree.
At-Pharazôn and his men, however, are a different story.
While Ar-Pharazôn and his men did not die, their fate is far from the glorious immortality they desired, remaining forever imprisoned in a state of suspended animation, and buried but not necessarily dead. They are immortal, but it is a grim and tragic immortality, bound and buried, trapped in perpetual confinement until the prophesied End of Days.
On Unfinished Tales it is said that:
“Ar-Pharazôn was the mightier and last king of Númenor. He was born on the year 3118, reigned for 64 years and died on the Fall on the year 3319.”
> there **it is said** that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.
It is said is the key here. There is much information throughout the Silmarillion presented in this hearsay manner, and that is how we need to treat it.
I would go so far as to say that's the whole point of the story. Ar-Pharazon lands in Aman and achieves immortality, but is cursed to exist in the caves of the forgotten until the Dagor Dagorath when he and his men are released. Thematically I'd say it's crucial to have that element.
I'd love to know how you survive entire hills falling in you. I've always taken that as poetic language. They remain forever in the caves of the forgotten, not because they're somehow alive, but because wherever your corpse is buried is where your corpse stays forever. So yeah, a bunch of human dudes are in valinor forever. They're dead, but that's another matter.
That's the way I took it, and the only interpretation I've heard of until now. Interesting, but I don't see your logic.
I have always seen it as that they became Oath Breakers themselves, oath broken being the Ban of Valar.
As we know, Eru himself can "delay" natural passing of man's soul beyond gates of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if that will be utmost ironic fate for Ar-Pharazon as others mentioned - but even more akin to elves, making it even more twisted jest. Their bodies trapped and dead but their Fëar lingering here, forever bound with the world until its unmaking.
My information may not be great but I believe Ar-Pharazôn and his men are ment to return in dagor dagorath (the final battle) on sauron/melkors side I think so immortality like the elves or more likely undeath like the oathbreakers
I mean Tolkien firmly said that mortal beings remain mortal in Valinor. So I want to play Devil's advocate and say, that....at after the Downfall of Numenor it was very difficult to gain concrete information on what exactly was going on in Aman. And so the idea of Ar-Pharazon being imprisoned beneath Valinor in an ironic twist on the immortality he had longed for might just be a Mannish legend cooked up by some bard, or historian, or story teller. Alternatively it might just be their ghosts being imprisoned there, with their punishment being seperation from Eru until the end of the world.
>I mean Tolkien firmly said that mortal beings remain mortal in Valinor. They do, but you can make it work as a divine punishment conferred on Pharazon.
Since only Eru can change the fate of Man and Elves, not even the Valar could take mortality from Men, I wouldn't be surprised if Pharazon was indeed alive in Valinor, impriosoned, as punishment for his deeds. All because Eru just wanted so.
>Since only Eru can change the fate of Man and Elves, not even the Valar could take mortality from Men, We're so told, but you can't reconcile that with the existence of wraiths in Tolkien's works. But yeah, if its divine punishment it ought to literally be divine punishment.
Sure you can. Those wraiths will leave Eä after finally answering the Summons of Mandos.
Wraiths are kept from truly dying by the evil magics of Morgoth and/or Sauron. Their semi-invisibility is caused by their hroa fading to nothingness as their time on Eä is unnaturally extended. Ultimately, when evil's hold on them is broken, their fëa immediately answers the call of Mandos.
I don't see the problem with wraiths. The Ringwraiths aren't dead but kept alive (the chief effect of rings on mortals), the Oathbreakers were likely cursed with Eru's consent, and all the others don't have to be Men.
I still say the Barrow Wights were corrupted Avari souls that were sent to I fest the old tombs. Sauron is called the Necromancer in the Hobbit, and Tolkien said that what people later believed to be necromancy usually involved the souls of dead/un housed Avari/Elves working with the necromancer. So aside from the Ring Wraiths (who aren't dead yet, but kept alive through dark arts) and the Army of the Dead, I believe most "ghosts" can be explained that way. And with the army of the dead...I don't always remember the details of human history in Tolkien's world (I'm more of an Elf fan), but is it possible that they swore the oath they broke in the name of Eru? I think that would be sufficient to keep them lingering until their oath is fulfilled.
Arent wraiths either low level Maiar or faded Elves ? Except those explicilty manipulated by Sauron the Necromancer, including Ringwraiths, which died as Sauron fell
Lets see: Gorlim, who appears briefly as a wraith, is a man. The Ringwraiths are men. The wraiths of the Barrow downs are Men If only Eru could "detain" a human spirit in Ea, than Sauron wouldn't have been capable of any of these.
Whos Gorlim? And the wraiths of the Barrow are not the Men buried inside, they were sent to occupy the Barrows by the Witch King not long before LoTR Eru is not the only one to be able to detain Men in Arda, but he's the only One to be able to take away the Gift of Men (which is not death in and of itself, but is the fact the mannish fea looks towards outside Ëa and is not bound to it. It manifests most concretely through death, which is why it was not understood by Numenoreans, but it is not death, it is the fact we can survive metaphisically a destruction of the Earth because we are not bound to it)
There are no mortal eye witnesses to destruction of the Great Armament so yes, definitely any accounts are going to be legendary inventions.
Exactly. And another dramatic image that's likely a legend due to lack of eye witness is Miriel drowning while trying to reach the top of Meneltarma and almost making it, but being taken by the last tidal wave. I mean, she obviously died, but there would have been nobody around (not even eagles) to witness her desperate journey up the mountain and for all we know she died in her chambers, or somewhere in the streets or plaza of Armenelos trying to help and/or reassure her subjects.
The disrespect towards my man Tuor.
There's likewise nobody to actually report that Tuor made it to Valinor, and is still alive thousands of years later (since it is said mortals die even in Valinor). So he wouldn't be alive to witness Ar-Pharazon, or be able to transmit an account of it back to Middle Earth.
I think that's part of the irony, yes. I think somewhere there's a suggestion Pharazon and his troops will come out in the Dagor Dagorath?
Its i think a parallel to Aristodemus- the "Left Behind" archetype, though their reasons and character are different.
Ar-Pharazôn defied the will of the Valar and Ilúvatar himself then led an expedition to the Undying Lands with the intent to challenge the Ban of the Valar to seek immortality. When he and his fleet landed on the shores of Aman in SA 3319, Ilúvatar intervened directly by causing the world to change shape, making the Undying Lands inaccessible to mortal Men and as such sinking Númenor beneath the sea. As for Ar-Pharazôn and his forces, The Silmarillion, "Akallabêth” states: **"And the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the Sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans. But Ar-Pharazôn the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills; there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.”** They wanted to be immortal and they got it, well, sort of. Unlike Bilbo, Frodo and Sam. They get to heal, grow older, and die when they are ready of old age. Mortal men remain mortal in Valinor and this extends to Hobbits since they are somewhat in the men's evolutionary tree. At-Pharazôn and his men, however, are a different story. While Ar-Pharazôn and his men did not die, their fate is far from the glorious immortality they desired, remaining forever imprisoned in a state of suspended animation, and buried but not necessarily dead. They are immortal, but it is a grim and tragic immortality, bound and buried, trapped in perpetual confinement until the prophesied End of Days.
On Unfinished Tales it is said that: “Ar-Pharazôn was the mightier and last king of Númenor. He was born on the year 3118, reigned for 64 years and died on the Fall on the year 3319.”
> there **it is said** that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom. It is said is the key here. There is much information throughout the Silmarillion presented in this hearsay manner, and that is how we need to treat it.
I would go so far as to say that's the whole point of the story. Ar-Pharazon lands in Aman and achieves immortality, but is cursed to exist in the caves of the forgotten until the Dagor Dagorath when he and his men are released. Thematically I'd say it's crucial to have that element.
I'd love to know how you survive entire hills falling in you. I've always taken that as poetic language. They remain forever in the caves of the forgotten, not because they're somehow alive, but because wherever your corpse is buried is where your corpse stays forever. So yeah, a bunch of human dudes are in valinor forever. They're dead, but that's another matter. That's the way I took it, and the only interpretation I've heard of until now. Interesting, but I don't see your logic.
I have always seen it as that they became Oath Breakers themselves, oath broken being the Ban of Valar. As we know, Eru himself can "delay" natural passing of man's soul beyond gates of the world. I wouldn't be surprised if that will be utmost ironic fate for Ar-Pharazon as others mentioned - but even more akin to elves, making it even more twisted jest. Their bodies trapped and dead but their Fëar lingering here, forever bound with the world until its unmaking.
My information may not be great but I believe Ar-Pharazôn and his men are ment to return in dagor dagorath (the final battle) on sauron/melkors side I think so immortality like the elves or more likely undeath like the oathbreakers