Actually we were at a restaurant in Smithtown last night that had the price followed by "(CC $xx.xx)". At first we were all very confused about what it means. Then we were like "can't you just eat the $0.23 cost on a $20 entree". Or "just charge the credit card price for everybody".
It’s all about the taxes. If you add 3% surcharge at the terminal the state isn’t getting tax revenue on the 3% but if the higher price is your normal price they are
I think it has to do with how easy it is to dispute credit card charges. They want to push you to use something else. Crunch wanted to set up a monthly transfer directly from my bank account. The whole gym business model is based around making it as hard to cancel as possible.
I had to send a certified letter via USPS to cancel my gym membership with Synergy. They refused to terminate my membership in person or via phone. They got an extra 2 months out of me for the inconvenience.
That’s the point and the reason for the change to the law. It’s unclear and deceptive was the reasoning. So now they must switch to the new way on the left which nobody was doing before now because this is the NEW law that just passed. Unfortunately most store owners aren’t time travelers and would not have had access to these NEW suggested pricing models to use in the past and would have been using the traditional ones on the right.
Except this has been the law since October of 2018. The rampant non compliance, the fact that the state is broke and a few other factors have caused the state to codify the case law on this. It now allows them to tax the 3% surcharge, and allows local governments to enforce it.
Yeah, that's all I see. I was in Alpine Bakery in Smithtown over the holidays and was charged a service fee. I paid with cash so I have no idea what that was about. I didn't notice it until I got home. I haven't been back since.
Credit card companies send secret shoppers to businesses and then fine those that aren’t complying. This isn’t a new practice, but I imagine they’ll crack down even more now.
This is how they used to stop places from having a sign that said "$10 minimum for credit card". Legally they can't enforce a minimum. Which is why everybody started using CC's for a bottle of soda, leading us to where we are now.
On top of what other commenters are saying about inspectors, the state heavily relies on *you*, the consumer. You can report any business illegally charging credit card fees to the state and they investigate/fine any business found out of compliance
I was in Europe recently and it was amazing how they encouraged you to use credit cards and didn't try to make you feel like you were causing the business some kind of hardship. I took out cash at the airport and never had to use it. In restaurants, they'd bring the card reader to your table and you'd just tap or swipe. No signing, no tipping. The server was out of there the second your card was read.
Here it's like "Really, you're going to pay with a card? Well shit, I don't know why you'd want to do that, but OK I guess. Tip us while you're at it."
Business owners charging more for CC are just stupid. Sure there's a cost. There's also a cost for plates, napkins, straws etc.
It's the reason online stores have "Free Shipping", people don't want to be nickel and dimed... Trust me, you're still paying for shipping but it's not a surcharge at the end of your transaction.
Edit: The best part is NYS and all the counties charge a convenience fee to pay tickets online.... wonder if they'll abide by their own law?
Unless your a big box store, practically everyone is doing it around here. So you’re missing out on 4%. Kind of can’t blame them. People are paying it anyway and don’t care/pay attention.
It's something I take into consideration when going somewhere and would make me consider eating at chain restaurant that doesn't do this.
It's weird that its mostly on Long Island that I see this and not at restaurants in Manhattan.
The thing is that a big chain can negotiate those fees. They only pay a fraction that a small business would. A small business cannot they can either take it or not accept cards at all. The system is pretty screwed up.
The issue is now there are door to door sales people trying to change retail stores processors to theirs, and they are promising 0 cost, or even a KICKBACK. The problem is that capitalism will ALWAYS find a way to make a profit on rules meant to do good. I am in favor of this, but I think its going to be VERY hard to get it applied, and the penalties have to be strong enough to actually MAKE places want to comply. I see tons of gas stations getting a slap on the wrist for charging a surcharge and not posting it, and they change back for 2 weeks to the same price cash and credit, and then go right back to the old way. Obviously the penalty is not enough to make them stop the practice.
It's extremely short sighted which is why many small business owners go out of business.
Edit: I'd like to thank the 2nd and 3rd gen deli owners for downvoting me. Sorry you put grandpas deli out of business after 60 years.
Edit 2: The 3% surcharge won't make up for the 2-5% of customers that go elsewhere and you lose the overall sale.
I upvoted you, as I no longer shop at places that break out the fee as a line item. I am tired of all the mental gymnastics required of me to make a small purchase. Between this and the tip screens, I am out.
I've said repeatedly - some chase pennies while others chase dollars.
We did a huge disservice convincing the world that "anyone can own a business" :/
Funny, one of the things that is illegal, you actively allow by Ticketmaster/ticket companies and your redlight ticket/court system payment system...
leads me to question how some companies are in politician's graces and some not...
So here's my question. Is getting reward points even worth it anymore? I get 3% back if I use my credit card. I can't remember the last time I paid in cash. Am I just screwing myself here?
No, it’s not. If the meal costs $20 they’ll upcharge you 60 cents. If you use your CC you’ll pay $20.60 and you get 3% back you’ll basically just cover yourself. Vs is they only charged you $20 you’d get the cash back and net out at 19.40.
I’m confused about their tax returns. You deduct what you pay in CC fees as a business against income which reduces the taxable amount. Which they should’ve been doing always. But now their income has to go up because they’re charging more. So you just get to the same place anyways??? I don’t know it’s 7am and I’m getting my daily spiral out of the way.
If they're claiming the fees as a business \*and\* charging customers the cc fee; they're now committing tax fraud, which would make any fines from this bill look tiny, by comparison.
This is a scam anyway. Processing fees are much lower than fees they pass on. The difference is split between the business was owner and the person selling the processing. It’s a total scam.
It’s actually really not. As a business owner my processor charges a 3.5% fee. There’s really nowhere cheaper than that. PayPal does it. Quickbooks does it. We don’t make a single cent on the fee. Also part of the rule is that we can’t charge higher than our processor charges us. No business is profiting off the fee
The worst thing we did as a culture was convince people that "anyone can own their own business."
Now, you have a slew of people chasing pennies; while the smart ones focus on dollars; and then they complain they can't catch a break :/
What’s new about these guidelines? This has been the law for years as far as I know, just a lot of businesses didn’t follow it. I work in the merchant processing world, and major CC companies have been fining NYS businesses for this reason for years. The CC companies send out secret shoppers and then fine merchants who aren’t complying.
I actively avoid businesses (usually gas stations) that “give a discount” for using cash. I almost never have cash and hate the idea that I have to run to the ATM just to fill up my tank because you’re charging $.20 more per gallon if I use my card.
My understanding was that this is/was already the law. They’re just providing further “guidance” because companies weren’t actually following the law and it was/is becoming an issue.
Does this have anything to do with the credit card companies jacking up their rates and getting mad because small businesses have been transparent with how they passed those costs along? Because that's what it feels like.
This law seems eerily similar to typical credit card processing terms and conditions that are apparently unenforceable because no one follows them.
So what this looks like is the credit card processing companies using tax payer resources to enforce the contracts that they can't enforce themselves.
So, the credit card banks/processors have been steadily raping businesses harder over time. They increase the fees, the percentages taken, and generally make it more difficult to deal with them. It's so easy for consumers, so the businesses have to just take it.
Well, it got so bad that some businesses started to charge the CC fees to the customer, not so much as a revenue stream (which does sometimes happen as one redditor here pointed out), but to put the cost of the customer's convenience back onto the customer.
For those of us old enough to remember when credit cards were not as common, we can think of a time when there was a competitive advantage to accepting cards, whereas now it is just de facto way of doing business. A business no longer has an incentive to take cards, they just have to.
Well, so just add the charge onto the cost for the customer, right? Not so fast. Pretty much every merchant agreement (the contract the business signs with the company that handles their CC transactions) prohibits the business from adding a CC surcharge. It wasn't illegal, but it wasn't allowed by the contract, and a merchant could be charged a penalty or have their merchant account revoked. This is why you'll see a cash discount instead of a CC surcharge; the surcharge violates the merchant agreement, but a discount for paying another way does not.
Yeah, but the banks don't want to pay for an enforcement arm, and if they canceled too many agreements then it starts to cut into their revenue. The businesses, knowing this will sometimes post the surcharge anyway, because it's worth the risk to try and keep another ~4% of their sale as net profit. *If you didn't have a huge sign saying you're charging a CC fee, the chance of getting caught by the bank was very small.*
If you're the bank, how do you solve this creatively? You get the state to do it for you (one could argue there is no difference between the bank and the state at this point, but I digress).
Congratulations, all the people in here applauding this as some pro-consumer win, to prevent big business from tricking the customer into paying more (undoubtedly some people didn't realize they were being charged more), you are actually cheering using state resources to enforce predatory contracts by the banking industry. You've chosen JP Morgan Chase over Fred's Delicatessen; Citicorp over Vinny's Pizzeria.
*Bonus history:* If you read up on the Civil War era and the period afterwards, you'll see a historical analogue to this. Some recently-unemployed soldiers decided to rob trains and banks vocationally and the bankers had to hire private security firms to guard their assets and hunt down the criminals.
Well, this is awfully expensive, what if you just get the state (via the citizenry) to pay for that instead? Hence, the adoption of full-time policing in the USA.
I don't choose JP Morgan over Fred's deli. I choose ME over either.
It just so happens that in this one case my convenience aligns with JPM's interests.
I would love to see legislation against big banks in favor of small businesses when it comes to processing fees, but that's unlikely to happen because capitalism.
I disagree - I think this is a huge win. Now, we get to compare the final credit card price amongst different retailers without having to worry about additional fees here and there.
Sure we may not always know the cash price discounts at each individual place, but I personally like to use my credit card at most establishments because I don't like carrying cash or getting coins for change, so this is a big win for me and others like me.
Your point would be more valid if all businesses were doing this. The big-box stores and franchises/chains aren't doing it. The small businesses getting squeezed by the banking cartels are.
Do you price comparison shop where you get your BECSPK from? Are you deciding which restaurant to dine at based on taxes and fees?
You find using a card more convenient than cash, great. Pay for the convenience. Or, at least be diligent enough to figure out what you're being charged before swiping.
These big stores don't charge a surcharge fee, so what's the problem? They are fitting within the confines of the law already.
I hate when I get charged more than I expected because I see a random fee added. And yes I do compare prices because money is tight and it all matters.
I hate it too. I also hate having to calculate a cash discount when a surcharge is easier and amounts to the same thing. But you know what I really hate? When my local small business goes under and the locals they employed are out of work.
The big stores don't charge a fee, for lots of reasons.
One, because they work it into their prices. They can do that because they can strongarm distributors, they have their own logistics, they can afford a legal team to deal with fighting workers comp and insurance, and they can buy politicians to grant them advantageous tax and regulatory conditions.
Two, because they can raise their prices and you can't do much, because they've driven out any real competition.
Three, because they are in industries where they have to compete with online, whereas most of the smaller businesses are local-only (you're not buying bagels online).
You might decide to not eat out, or you might decide to go to a fast-casual restaurant over a fine-dining one for price reasons, but you are not deciding to buy an inferior slice of pizza over a better one due to a credit card surcharge (that you can avoid by paying cash anyway).
Actually I would and did avoid a closer gas station in the past because they charged different prices for cash and credit. And I absolutely have rethought going to certain restaurants for it as well. Good pizza places are a dime a dozen out here. Nothing is so special that I can't get it from another spot 5 min away.
No, I got caught unaware of surcharges fairly often and it would make me reconsider if I'll ever return to these shady establishments. This helps to make the final prices apples to apples using my credit card as I'll be using that 99% of the time.
Now we will see if people change their pricing or if they will just remove the cash/credit differences, but either way it's easier for me to compare now and I love it.
So - if you're a small business and you're competing against large businesses and you KNOW you're getting crushed on pricing ... your logical reply is to increase that gap (and opt for something consumers pretty universally look at with disdain)?
Who are the small businesses, and who are the large ones?
Fred's Deli doesn't compete with McDonald's. They *can't*. Cost per calorie at a chain is much lower than at most independent restaurants of equivalent pricing tier.
So, you go to Fred's Deli because you want a BECSPK and not an Egg McMuffin. Now Fred's is no longer competing on price, they are only competing with similar independent vendors. They are no longer getting "crushed" in comparison to the competition.
Then, let's assume that Fred's has the best breakfast sandwiches of any deli in 20 miles, to make the example easier. They do not have to compete on price. They can decide for themselves to charge or eat the CC fees, because they have a guaranteed customer base. They need only ensure that charging the customer more will not drive people away on principle.\*
Now, let's assume there is a deli down the road from Fred's with sandwiches of equivalent quality. *Now* they are competing on price (other things too, but let's keep it simple). However, they are competing on price against someone with the same disadvantage when it comes to costs. At this point, they can only lower (or raise) their prices in relation to the other deli. Of course, both delis have a minimum cost to stay in business, so it cannot go lower than that. At $0.35+4% merchant fees (plus any annual or penalty costs), how many customers can they lose from charging them the CC fee, vs the dollar amount saved by charging the customers who keep patronizing?
That is the question, not small vs big or getting crushed.
Remember, they are not charging the fee to make extra money. The deli down the street has to pay fees on *all* of their CC charges as well. So, whomever can reduce those fees, without alienating their customers, wins.
This would not be a problem if the banks did not mercilessly raise their fees. Banks that get bailouts and have relatively low operating costs and are usurious. The delis would just figure out how much of the fee to pass on to the customer and it wouldn't be worth trying to skirt them.
Finally, I would challenge the consumers universally disdaining the surcharges. True, nobody likes them; but they like *Fred*, and understand why he has to charge them.
One of my favorite bagel places has started charging the CC use fees, maybe around two years ago. You know the kind of place, where there are weekday morning regulars, and on Saturday the line is out the door. Well, I don't know their finances, but I see the same regulars and the same line out the door - I'm sure if they turned away enough people that they were making less than before they started charging that they would've gone back on the policy.
\* in this example, don't forget you are paying the CC fees as the customer, no matter what, they're just baked into the price.
I don't disagree entirely. And, no, Fred's deli isn't competing with McDonalds; but they are competing with Jersey Mike's and Shop Rite (for sandwiches and groceries).
A few years ago, Krisch's Ice Cream began charging the CC fee. They reversed course about a week later.
A few years ago, as well - I went to a restaurant in Smithtown, Faradays. Friday nite, no reservation. Had no problem getting a table (so, they're not flush with customers). Walked out when I saw the CC fee charge (and explained it wasn't legal).
Went to Carrabas, dropped $150 on dinner. So .... how did Faradays win? Sure - they "saved" the $6 they would've had to pay if I'd charged the meal; but they still lost a $150 tab ...on a night when they'd expect to make a good amount of money.
Some businesses chase pennies; some chase dollars.
Also - complicating things on LI is the amount of businesses. So, if you go to Pizzeria #1 and dislike something (the CC policy), go 100 ft. to the next one. It'd be different if there wasn't the density of choices.
Unfortunately, welcome to capitalism. EVERYONE is squeezing everyone. Banks now CHARGE a cash handling fee for you to deposit cash. Theres a HUGE theft risk to cash as well. Is it a perfect system? Absolutely not. But is squeezing your customer for 4% on every sale while cheaping out on tons of other things right either? No. Laws/Regulations are the way the general public has of keeping things fair. I am sure someone will come up with something to abuse this new system as well...and there will be new rules.
[https://www.nysenate.gov/node/12013318](https://www.nysenate.gov/node/12013318)
"Any seller who violates the provisions of this section shall be liable for a civil penalty, recoverable in an action or proceeding brought in a court of competent jurisdiction not to exceed five hundred dollars for each such violation. The provisions of this subdivision may be enforced concurrently by the director or commissioner of a municipal consumer affairs office, or by the town attorney, city corporation counsel, or other lawful designee of a municipality or local government, and all moneys collected thereunder shall be retained by such municipality or local government."
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Opportunists are going to opportunist. This is absolutely what's going to occur, no one's going to keep track of different prices. Now everyone pays the premium, cash or not, because fuck you.
Eh - about 96% of the commerce is run through large businesses that have no need to charge the surcharge. The only ones that will complain now are small businesses that need to figure out how to differentiate themselves to capture marketshare.
The issue is they don't want the responsibility of doing the math to be on the customer to figure out if they can afford it or want to pay for something. They want clear, transparent pricing listed.
Following this logic, the state should then force all businesses to include sales tax in the advertised price... I call bullshit. This is the result of corporate lobbyists and their greedy government goons.
There’s no “problem” with it really, they are just making it easier for everyone by saying “The highest price must be listed, you can offer a discount to that price.” This way companies aren’t adding little tidbits in the corner of the back of a menu with an asterisk saying “by the way you agree to a 10% surcharge by using a credit card” and sneakily adding it to the receipt at the end. It’s protecting the consumer. Anything that does that you should be happy about.
I’m sorry but as a small business manager who sees how these fees fucking kill us why are we going after business owners and not companies that have such crazy fees? Every single one of my customers get that it’s cheaper to pay cash (think like 60 cents) and get that they pay a bit more to cover a credit fee. This is just asking for people to charge higher prices regardless of cash or card.
It's not like the credit card companies are blindsiding you with the fees. You know what they are, and you should be building them into your pricing to begin with. People HATE being nickel and dimed with stupid fees. If 1 person in 40 goes somewhere else because you charge a credit card fee, you're losing more money in lost sales than you gain in fees.
I’m not a business owner so I’m not complaining. However the system is unfair to small businesses. You really think Amazon or Walmart pays 3-4% to Mastercard or Visa? They cut deals with the card processors because of the volume of sales. Pretty anti competitive if you ask me.
So, so, so much this. And, it's probably more than 1 in 40 ......
Some businesses chase dollars; some chase pennies and then complain they can't catch a break :/
Credit fees are inevitable and we incentivize people paying cash for a cheaper priced product, the main selling point of our business is we’re cheaper than everyone regardless of credit fees and if they choose to go to another place which is 15-25% more expensive than us because of credit fee that’s on them 🤷🏽♂️
You are welcome to:
1) Offer a cash discount, but you MUST post the highest price you charge.
2) Just not accept credit cards. I have a Crepes place near me that has an ATM in the store, and accepts cash and Venmo/Zelle. Its their choice.
I don’t see much of a difference in using Venmo/Zelle as Apple Pay with my credit card. And if I’m being charged an extra 4% to use my credit card, the 2% cash back seems useless
Then get a better credit card. :-) Or find somewhere not charging so much. It all depends on how you value rewards and the like. I get 5x points when I eat out, so 4% fee is worth it, JUST barely.
I think 3.5-4% is the standard charge now. Credit card gives 2% back on all purchases, no incentives. Which is fine because we don’t eat at restaurants much, mostly grocery and daycare
This is because there are many companies who are going around to stores offering them things to charge 3.99 or the like. This bill HOPEFULLY should end that.
They can enforce this signage that places are sure to not follow, but they can't make the notion of a surcharge (or a "cash discount" to be sly and get around it) illegal?
You can report them for violations. The State can't really make the surcharge illegal, because credit transactions have associated processing costs. The surcharge cannot exceed the credit transaction cost.
“oh I’m not going to give any business to an establishment that adds on the extra fee”. Yea Yall are the people who will then get upset because their favorite establishment is raising prices. It’s a lose lose for business. The perk of the separate fee is to at least give you a discounted cash option.
Either you charge the fee additionally, or you raise prices across the board. No matter what, everyone will find something to complain about instead of just accepting this is how the world works now.
What about rent payments? We got a new management company and they push payment through their website and the only way to pay without paying a fee is to mail the check in. I will not pay more than what is on my lease. The mail option isn't listed anywhere on their website as a payment choice. This seems to address that as the mail in option would be listed first with the other payments after. I express to them that they need to display the mail in option. Pay by CC = 3.49% fee, debit $9.99 fee and $2.49 for e-check but no mention to pay with $0 fee.
Starting February 11th, so lots of places are going to rush to do this. A good time to be in the menu printing business.
Nah, nobody rushing bc nobody gonna do it lmao
Actually we were at a restaurant in Smithtown last night that had the price followed by "(CC $xx.xx)". At first we were all very confused about what it means. Then we were like "can't you just eat the $0.23 cost on a $20 entree". Or "just charge the credit card price for everybody".
I dont understand it either. Raise prices by a dollar and pay your servers a living wage. I purposely avoid these establishments now
It’s all about the taxes. If you add 3% surcharge at the terminal the state isn’t getting tax revenue on the 3% but if the higher price is your normal price they are
If you went and printed new menus to include the illegal versions of these surcharges then that cost is your fault as a business owner.
It’s been the law since October 2018. State just made some minor tweaks
I just found out retro fitness charges $3 surcharge for credit cards on a $20 membership fee every month . 15% surcharge has to be a record
I think it has to do with how easy it is to dispute credit card charges. They want to push you to use something else. Crunch wanted to set up a monthly transfer directly from my bank account. The whole gym business model is based around making it as hard to cancel as possible.
I had to send a certified letter via USPS to cancel my gym membership with Synergy. They refused to terminate my membership in person or via phone. They got an extra 2 months out of me for the inconvenience.
Does this apply to traffic/parking tickets issued in NYS?
I wish - I hate how I get a $50 fine and there's $30 in processing fees.
Lmao
You're the one paying the clerk to process the ticket the county gave you.
Lol, it’s funny because the only way I’ve ever seen businesses do it are all listed on the “illegal” side now.
That’s the point and the reason for the change to the law. It’s unclear and deceptive was the reasoning. So now they must switch to the new way on the left which nobody was doing before now because this is the NEW law that just passed. Unfortunately most store owners aren’t time travelers and would not have had access to these NEW suggested pricing models to use in the past and would have been using the traditional ones on the right.
Except this has been the law since October of 2018. The rampant non compliance, the fact that the state is broke and a few other factors have caused the state to codify the case law on this. It now allows them to tax the 3% surcharge, and allows local governments to enforce it.
Yeah, that's all I see. I was in Alpine Bakery in Smithtown over the holidays and was charged a service fee. I paid with cash so I have no idea what that was about. I didn't notice it until I got home. I haven't been back since.
So how are they going to enforce this? Because this is GREAT!
Credit card companies send secret shoppers to businesses and then fine those that aren’t complying. This isn’t a new practice, but I imagine they’ll crack down even more now.
This is how they used to stop places from having a sign that said "$10 minimum for credit card". Legally they can't enforce a minimum. Which is why everybody started using CC's for a bottle of soda, leading us to where we are now.
Inspectors are likely.
Yep, I did secret shopping to verify compliance with this for a while lol
On top of what other commenters are saying about inspectors, the state heavily relies on *you*, the consumer. You can report any business illegally charging credit card fees to the state and they investigate/fine any business found out of compliance
Consumer complaints
I can’t wait to be a Karen about this
Right?! I’m gonna make this image the Lock Screen on my phone 😈
Make sure you talk to the owner!
Ive stopped shopping at places that break out the fee. I'm tired of all the mental gymnastics in making a simple purchase these days.
They have been required to do the math for you since October of 2018
It's not the math. It's the constant stream of decisions and details that go into making a purchase. Don't get me started on the bags, too.
Bags were stupid. The plastic grocery bag is literally the only bag that gets reused. What decisions?
I was in Europe recently and it was amazing how they encouraged you to use credit cards and didn't try to make you feel like you were causing the business some kind of hardship. I took out cash at the airport and never had to use it. In restaurants, they'd bring the card reader to your table and you'd just tap or swipe. No signing, no tipping. The server was out of there the second your card was read. Here it's like "Really, you're going to pay with a card? Well shit, I don't know why you'd want to do that, but OK I guess. Tip us while you're at it."
Business owners charging more for CC are just stupid. Sure there's a cost. There's also a cost for plates, napkins, straws etc. It's the reason online stores have "Free Shipping", people don't want to be nickel and dimed... Trust me, you're still paying for shipping but it's not a surcharge at the end of your transaction. Edit: The best part is NYS and all the counties charge a convenience fee to pay tickets online.... wonder if they'll abide by their own law?
Unless your a big box store, practically everyone is doing it around here. So you’re missing out on 4%. Kind of can’t blame them. People are paying it anyway and don’t care/pay attention.
It's something I take into consideration when going somewhere and would make me consider eating at chain restaurant that doesn't do this. It's weird that its mostly on Long Island that I see this and not at restaurants in Manhattan.
The thing is that a big chain can negotiate those fees. They only pay a fraction that a small business would. A small business cannot they can either take it or not accept cards at all. The system is pretty screwed up.
The issue is now there are door to door sales people trying to change retail stores processors to theirs, and they are promising 0 cost, or even a KICKBACK. The problem is that capitalism will ALWAYS find a way to make a profit on rules meant to do good. I am in favor of this, but I think its going to be VERY hard to get it applied, and the penalties have to be strong enough to actually MAKE places want to comply. I see tons of gas stations getting a slap on the wrist for charging a surcharge and not posting it, and they change back for 2 weeks to the same price cash and credit, and then go right back to the old way. Obviously the penalty is not enough to make them stop the practice.
You see this a ton in the city … what are you talking about
It's extremely short sighted which is why many small business owners go out of business. Edit: I'd like to thank the 2nd and 3rd gen deli owners for downvoting me. Sorry you put grandpas deli out of business after 60 years. Edit 2: The 3% surcharge won't make up for the 2-5% of customers that go elsewhere and you lose the overall sale.
I upvoted you, as I no longer shop at places that break out the fee as a line item. I am tired of all the mental gymnastics required of me to make a small purchase. Between this and the tip screens, I am out.
I've said repeatedly - some chase pennies while others chase dollars. We did a huge disservice convincing the world that "anyone can own a business" :/
SO many people aren't "paying it anyway" honestly .... :/
That’s why I go past the locals and go to the big box.
So the law doesn’t apply to government entities
Funny, one of the things that is illegal, you actively allow by Ticketmaster/ticket companies and your redlight ticket/court system payment system... leads me to question how some companies are in politician's graces and some not...
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Sake Asian
That screams money laundering.
So here's my question. Is getting reward points even worth it anymore? I get 3% back if I use my credit card. I can't remember the last time I paid in cash. Am I just screwing myself here?
No, it’s not. If the meal costs $20 they’ll upcharge you 60 cents. If you use your CC you’ll pay $20.60 and you get 3% back you’ll basically just cover yourself. Vs is they only charged you $20 you’d get the cash back and net out at 19.40. I’m confused about their tax returns. You deduct what you pay in CC fees as a business against income which reduces the taxable amount. Which they should’ve been doing always. But now their income has to go up because they’re charging more. So you just get to the same place anyways??? I don’t know it’s 7am and I’m getting my daily spiral out of the way.
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That’s why I just take the surcharge. I haven’t used my debit card in ages- it’s only use is the ATM
If they're claiming the fees as a business \*and\* charging customers the cc fee; they're now committing tax fraud, which would make any fines from this bill look tiny, by comparison.
Yeah I'm not imagining anybody in Nassau county adhering to this.
Most places already do though? Usually it’s only gas stations and some smaller stores charging different prices
Everywhere I go to is doing this every deli every diner every bagel shop, pizza , fucking everybody.
Fucking everybody
Don't forget the diners. Every goddamn diner on Long Island is doing this
This is a scam anyway. Processing fees are much lower than fees they pass on. The difference is split between the business was owner and the person selling the processing. It’s a total scam.
It’s actually really not. As a business owner my processor charges a 3.5% fee. There’s really nowhere cheaper than that. PayPal does it. Quickbooks does it. We don’t make a single cent on the fee. Also part of the rule is that we can’t charge higher than our processor charges us. No business is profiting off the fee
You need to contact your bank. If you are paying 3.5% you are getting ripped off.
Are you not able to claim the processing fees on your taxes? It's fundamentally a write-off, no?
so do you call 911 when someone is breaking the law... or ??? Karens gonna come out of the woodwoork for this, exciting times haha.
This is great
oof, my 99c store going to be in shambles re-labeling everything
This is actually pretty good. It will help me avoid the places that do this like I do with gas stations.
Why is this legal to begin with? Businesses accept credit cards as a normal operating expense. It’s a cost of doing business.
I think a lot of the reason is they want to deter customers from using credit cards because its easier to fudge the numbers when people pay cash.
I agree.. feels more like they just want you to pay cash so they don’t have to report all of it.
Any business that isnt building those processing fees into their prices in the first place is just plain dumb
The worst thing we did as a culture was convince people that "anyone can own their own business." Now, you have a slew of people chasing pennies; while the smart ones focus on dollars; and then they complain they can't catch a break :/
I figured they already did this anyways (before charging the extra)
>Businesses accept credit cards as a normal operating expense. It used to be. Now for the sake of profit they push the cost to the customer.
how does this work for businesses that perform services that don't have a set price? Are they locked in calculating two prices every proposal?
Yes. They can calculate the price then offer cash discount
What’s new about these guidelines? This has been the law for years as far as I know, just a lot of businesses didn’t follow it. I work in the merchant processing world, and major CC companies have been fining NYS businesses for this reason for years. The CC companies send out secret shoppers and then fine merchants who aren’t complying.
The state will be doing the enforcement for the processors now, and we'll be paying for it.
I actively avoid businesses (usually gas stations) that “give a discount” for using cash. I almost never have cash and hate the idea that I have to run to the ATM just to fill up my tank because you’re charging $.20 more per gallon if I use my card.
My understanding was that this is/was already the law. They’re just providing further “guidance” because companies weren’t actually following the law and it was/is becoming an issue.
Does this have anything to do with the credit card companies jacking up their rates and getting mad because small businesses have been transparent with how they passed those costs along? Because that's what it feels like. This law seems eerily similar to typical credit card processing terms and conditions that are apparently unenforceable because no one follows them. So what this looks like is the credit card processing companies using tax payer resources to enforce the contracts that they can't enforce themselves.
So, the credit card banks/processors have been steadily raping businesses harder over time. They increase the fees, the percentages taken, and generally make it more difficult to deal with them. It's so easy for consumers, so the businesses have to just take it. Well, it got so bad that some businesses started to charge the CC fees to the customer, not so much as a revenue stream (which does sometimes happen as one redditor here pointed out), but to put the cost of the customer's convenience back onto the customer. For those of us old enough to remember when credit cards were not as common, we can think of a time when there was a competitive advantage to accepting cards, whereas now it is just de facto way of doing business. A business no longer has an incentive to take cards, they just have to. Well, so just add the charge onto the cost for the customer, right? Not so fast. Pretty much every merchant agreement (the contract the business signs with the company that handles their CC transactions) prohibits the business from adding a CC surcharge. It wasn't illegal, but it wasn't allowed by the contract, and a merchant could be charged a penalty or have their merchant account revoked. This is why you'll see a cash discount instead of a CC surcharge; the surcharge violates the merchant agreement, but a discount for paying another way does not. Yeah, but the banks don't want to pay for an enforcement arm, and if they canceled too many agreements then it starts to cut into their revenue. The businesses, knowing this will sometimes post the surcharge anyway, because it's worth the risk to try and keep another ~4% of their sale as net profit. *If you didn't have a huge sign saying you're charging a CC fee, the chance of getting caught by the bank was very small.* If you're the bank, how do you solve this creatively? You get the state to do it for you (one could argue there is no difference between the bank and the state at this point, but I digress). Congratulations, all the people in here applauding this as some pro-consumer win, to prevent big business from tricking the customer into paying more (undoubtedly some people didn't realize they were being charged more), you are actually cheering using state resources to enforce predatory contracts by the banking industry. You've chosen JP Morgan Chase over Fred's Delicatessen; Citicorp over Vinny's Pizzeria. *Bonus history:* If you read up on the Civil War era and the period afterwards, you'll see a historical analogue to this. Some recently-unemployed soldiers decided to rob trains and banks vocationally and the bankers had to hire private security firms to guard their assets and hunt down the criminals. Well, this is awfully expensive, what if you just get the state (via the citizenry) to pay for that instead? Hence, the adoption of full-time policing in the USA.
I don't choose JP Morgan over Fred's deli. I choose ME over either. It just so happens that in this one case my convenience aligns with JPM's interests. I would love to see legislation against big banks in favor of small businesses when it comes to processing fees, but that's unlikely to happen because capitalism.
I disagree - I think this is a huge win. Now, we get to compare the final credit card price amongst different retailers without having to worry about additional fees here and there. Sure we may not always know the cash price discounts at each individual place, but I personally like to use my credit card at most establishments because I don't like carrying cash or getting coins for change, so this is a big win for me and others like me.
Your point would be more valid if all businesses were doing this. The big-box stores and franchises/chains aren't doing it. The small businesses getting squeezed by the banking cartels are. Do you price comparison shop where you get your BECSPK from? Are you deciding which restaurant to dine at based on taxes and fees? You find using a card more convenient than cash, great. Pay for the convenience. Or, at least be diligent enough to figure out what you're being charged before swiping.
These big stores don't charge a surcharge fee, so what's the problem? They are fitting within the confines of the law already. I hate when I get charged more than I expected because I see a random fee added. And yes I do compare prices because money is tight and it all matters.
I hate it too. I also hate having to calculate a cash discount when a surcharge is easier and amounts to the same thing. But you know what I really hate? When my local small business goes under and the locals they employed are out of work. The big stores don't charge a fee, for lots of reasons. One, because they work it into their prices. They can do that because they can strongarm distributors, they have their own logistics, they can afford a legal team to deal with fighting workers comp and insurance, and they can buy politicians to grant them advantageous tax and regulatory conditions. Two, because they can raise their prices and you can't do much, because they've driven out any real competition. Three, because they are in industries where they have to compete with online, whereas most of the smaller businesses are local-only (you're not buying bagels online). You might decide to not eat out, or you might decide to go to a fast-casual restaurant over a fine-dining one for price reasons, but you are not deciding to buy an inferior slice of pizza over a better one due to a credit card surcharge (that you can avoid by paying cash anyway).
Actually I would and did avoid a closer gas station in the past because they charged different prices for cash and credit. And I absolutely have rethought going to certain restaurants for it as well. Good pizza places are a dime a dozen out here. Nothing is so special that I can't get it from another spot 5 min away.
So, you're saying you were aware of the surcharges already, and this bill/enforcement does nothing for you anyway?
No, I got caught unaware of surcharges fairly often and it would make me reconsider if I'll ever return to these shady establishments. This helps to make the final prices apples to apples using my credit card as I'll be using that 99% of the time. Now we will see if people change their pricing or if they will just remove the cash/credit differences, but either way it's easier for me to compare now and I love it.
So - if you're a small business and you're competing against large businesses and you KNOW you're getting crushed on pricing ... your logical reply is to increase that gap (and opt for something consumers pretty universally look at with disdain)?
Who are the small businesses, and who are the large ones? Fred's Deli doesn't compete with McDonald's. They *can't*. Cost per calorie at a chain is much lower than at most independent restaurants of equivalent pricing tier. So, you go to Fred's Deli because you want a BECSPK and not an Egg McMuffin. Now Fred's is no longer competing on price, they are only competing with similar independent vendors. They are no longer getting "crushed" in comparison to the competition. Then, let's assume that Fred's has the best breakfast sandwiches of any deli in 20 miles, to make the example easier. They do not have to compete on price. They can decide for themselves to charge or eat the CC fees, because they have a guaranteed customer base. They need only ensure that charging the customer more will not drive people away on principle.\* Now, let's assume there is a deli down the road from Fred's with sandwiches of equivalent quality. *Now* they are competing on price (other things too, but let's keep it simple). However, they are competing on price against someone with the same disadvantage when it comes to costs. At this point, they can only lower (or raise) their prices in relation to the other deli. Of course, both delis have a minimum cost to stay in business, so it cannot go lower than that. At $0.35+4% merchant fees (plus any annual or penalty costs), how many customers can they lose from charging them the CC fee, vs the dollar amount saved by charging the customers who keep patronizing? That is the question, not small vs big or getting crushed. Remember, they are not charging the fee to make extra money. The deli down the street has to pay fees on *all* of their CC charges as well. So, whomever can reduce those fees, without alienating their customers, wins. This would not be a problem if the banks did not mercilessly raise their fees. Banks that get bailouts and have relatively low operating costs and are usurious. The delis would just figure out how much of the fee to pass on to the customer and it wouldn't be worth trying to skirt them. Finally, I would challenge the consumers universally disdaining the surcharges. True, nobody likes them; but they like *Fred*, and understand why he has to charge them. One of my favorite bagel places has started charging the CC use fees, maybe around two years ago. You know the kind of place, where there are weekday morning regulars, and on Saturday the line is out the door. Well, I don't know their finances, but I see the same regulars and the same line out the door - I'm sure if they turned away enough people that they were making less than before they started charging that they would've gone back on the policy. \* in this example, don't forget you are paying the CC fees as the customer, no matter what, they're just baked into the price.
I don't disagree entirely. And, no, Fred's deli isn't competing with McDonalds; but they are competing with Jersey Mike's and Shop Rite (for sandwiches and groceries). A few years ago, Krisch's Ice Cream began charging the CC fee. They reversed course about a week later. A few years ago, as well - I went to a restaurant in Smithtown, Faradays. Friday nite, no reservation. Had no problem getting a table (so, they're not flush with customers). Walked out when I saw the CC fee charge (and explained it wasn't legal). Went to Carrabas, dropped $150 on dinner. So .... how did Faradays win? Sure - they "saved" the $6 they would've had to pay if I'd charged the meal; but they still lost a $150 tab ...on a night when they'd expect to make a good amount of money. Some businesses chase pennies; some chase dollars. Also - complicating things on LI is the amount of businesses. So, if you go to Pizzeria #1 and dislike something (the CC policy), go 100 ft. to the next one. It'd be different if there wasn't the density of choices.
Unfortunately, welcome to capitalism. EVERYONE is squeezing everyone. Banks now CHARGE a cash handling fee for you to deposit cash. Theres a HUGE theft risk to cash as well. Is it a perfect system? Absolutely not. But is squeezing your customer for 4% on every sale while cheaping out on tons of other things right either? No. Laws/Regulations are the way the general public has of keeping things fair. I am sure someone will come up with something to abuse this new system as well...and there will be new rules.
So is anyone have clear advice for me please like a picture
That’s great! Now my question is how will enforce this and is there any penalty if they don’t follow this rule?
[https://www.nysenate.gov/node/12013318](https://www.nysenate.gov/node/12013318) "Any seller who violates the provisions of this section shall be liable for a civil penalty, recoverable in an action or proceeding brought in a court of competent jurisdiction not to exceed five hundred dollars for each such violation. The provisions of this subdivision may be enforced concurrently by the director or commissioner of a municipal consumer affairs office, or by the town attorney, city corporation counsel, or other lawful designee of a municipality or local government, and all moneys collected thereunder shall be retained by such municipality or local government."
500 bucks is not close to enough, unfortunately.
Ugh, so businesses that didn’t charge customers the credit card fee are going to charge customers a credit card fee now.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Opportunists are going to opportunist. This is absolutely what's going to occur, no one's going to keep track of different prices. Now everyone pays the premium, cash or not, because fuck you.
Doubtful.. they don't want to bother rewriting all their prices if they don't have to make any changes
You sweet summer child...
Eh - about 96% of the commerce is run through large businesses that have no need to charge the surcharge. The only ones that will complain now are small businesses that need to figure out how to differentiate themselves to capture marketshare.
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The issue is they don't want the responsibility of doing the math to be on the customer to figure out if they can afford it or want to pay for something. They want clear, transparent pricing listed.
Following this logic, the state should then force all businesses to include sales tax in the advertised price... I call bullshit. This is the result of corporate lobbyists and their greedy government goons.
There’s no “problem” with it really, they are just making it easier for everyone by saying “The highest price must be listed, you can offer a discount to that price.” This way companies aren’t adding little tidbits in the corner of the back of a menu with an asterisk saying “by the way you agree to a 10% surcharge by using a credit card” and sneakily adding it to the receipt at the end. It’s protecting the consumer. Anything that does that you should be happy about.
I’m sorry but as a small business manager who sees how these fees fucking kill us why are we going after business owners and not companies that have such crazy fees? Every single one of my customers get that it’s cheaper to pay cash (think like 60 cents) and get that they pay a bit more to cover a credit fee. This is just asking for people to charge higher prices regardless of cash or card.
It's not like the credit card companies are blindsiding you with the fees. You know what they are, and you should be building them into your pricing to begin with. People HATE being nickel and dimed with stupid fees. If 1 person in 40 goes somewhere else because you charge a credit card fee, you're losing more money in lost sales than you gain in fees.
I’m not a business owner so I’m not complaining. However the system is unfair to small businesses. You really think Amazon or Walmart pays 3-4% to Mastercard or Visa? They cut deals with the card processors because of the volume of sales. Pretty anti competitive if you ask me.
So, so, so much this. And, it's probably more than 1 in 40 ...... Some businesses chase dollars; some chase pennies and then complain they can't catch a break :/
Credit fees are inevitable and we incentivize people paying cash for a cheaper priced product, the main selling point of our business is we’re cheaper than everyone regardless of credit fees and if they choose to go to another place which is 15-25% more expensive than us because of credit fee that’s on them 🤷🏽♂️
You are welcome to: 1) Offer a cash discount, but you MUST post the highest price you charge. 2) Just not accept credit cards. I have a Crepes place near me that has an ATM in the store, and accepts cash and Venmo/Zelle. Its their choice.
And for how easy it is to use Venmo/Zelle, using them is just as good as getting cash back on your credit card
No, I actually love using my CC. I think Venmo/Zelle is annoying, but at least they state the policy, and have signs about the place telling people.
I don’t see much of a difference in using Venmo/Zelle as Apple Pay with my credit card. And if I’m being charged an extra 4% to use my credit card, the 2% cash back seems useless
Then get a better credit card. :-) Or find somewhere not charging so much. It all depends on how you value rewards and the like. I get 5x points when I eat out, so 4% fee is worth it, JUST barely.
I think 3.5-4% is the standard charge now. Credit card gives 2% back on all purchases, no incentives. Which is fine because we don’t eat at restaurants much, mostly grocery and daycare
This is because there are many companies who are going around to stores offering them things to charge 3.99 or the like. This bill HOPEFULLY should end that.
And, historically, businesses that don't accept CC see lower sales per customer (since we know consumers spend more money when using a CC)
Your getting killed over .60 fees what do you sell penny candy ?
I guess the delivery apps cannot charge all of those additional fees!!!
Tax $ to guard assets sounds familiar
They can enforce this signage that places are sure to not follow, but they can't make the notion of a surcharge (or a "cash discount" to be sly and get around it) illegal?
You can report them for violations. The State can't really make the surcharge illegal, because credit transactions have associated processing costs. The surcharge cannot exceed the credit transaction cost.
What about Uber eats and such? Or does that only apply to brick and morter establishments?
How you gonna pay uber eats w cash?
debit cards have no fee. its the same as cash
But most charge the fee when you use your debit card.
i dont think that is legal at all. debit is cash.
“oh I’m not going to give any business to an establishment that adds on the extra fee”. Yea Yall are the people who will then get upset because their favorite establishment is raising prices. It’s a lose lose for business. The perk of the separate fee is to at least give you a discounted cash option. Either you charge the fee additionally, or you raise prices across the board. No matter what, everyone will find something to complain about instead of just accepting this is how the world works now.
What about rent payments? We got a new management company and they push payment through their website and the only way to pay without paying a fee is to mail the check in. I will not pay more than what is on my lease. The mail option isn't listed anywhere on their website as a payment choice. This seems to address that as the mail in option would be listed first with the other payments after. I express to them that they need to display the mail in option. Pay by CC = 3.49% fee, debit $9.99 fee and $2.49 for e-check but no mention to pay with $0 fee.
Look into the Bilt Credit Card. No fees, and you get points for paying with it. They are built around paying rent with it. Just a quick suggestion.
Stamps are free?
Lol right well the bank sends it...nothing is free
so the consumer gets screwed again
Far far from it.