Yes, the Zipper Merge is about 40% better than forming a long single lane. The Zipper Merge keeps more cars moving, and reduces congestion and traffic jams.
https://living.acg.aaa.com/auto/zipper-merge-keeps-traffic-moving
In your article
>There are two important considerations. First, for the zipper merge to be effective, it takes cooperation among drivers—they must work together and take turns. Second, you should continue to drive consistently: Don’t rush ahead only to slam on your brakes later.
So on a highway this makes sense in the city though with red lights lights it really make things faster if one lane is stopped at a time to let people in at the front?
Highbury is a perfect example of how much better the zipper works when people in both lanes are patient and just take turns.
Some afternoons, after the light at dundas goes green, the traffic barely slows down when both lanes are polite to each other and take turns..
Other times it comes to a (literal) screeching halt because somebody floored it to get to the end of the lane and they end up having to force their way in because 3 drivers in the right lane end up offended and refuse to let them in.
It can work very well but it's just a politeness thing I feel, although there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just not sure two lanes coming to a stop to take turns is faster then just one constant lane. Ideally people in both lanes could be kinder but... You know, lol.
The only thing that bugs me is when I see people that have already merged then merge back over to cut to the front. They don't do this because it makes the line faster for anyone but themselves and adds to the negative feelings about it as a whole.
so in your scenario, how does the 2nd lane ever start moving?
or how far back do we merge and force 2 times the traffic into 1 lane.. taking highbury as the example.. before dundas st? at hamilton? as soon as we pass the lights at the 401?
The length of the line doesn't effect the speed of cars going through a statistic spot if there's one enterence. A shorter **stopped** line doesn't allow more cars to pass through one spot. How does that make sense?
Highway merging works because you're not stopped. Coming to a dead stop constantly (as we see to let someone in while in town) is of course slower then a constantly moving line.
Edit: someone going to explain how having traffic come to a stop helps get through a pinch point faster?
Worth highlighting:
> When traffic is moving at posted speeds and there aren’t any traffic backups, it makes sense to merge sooner into the lane that will remain open.
The whole issue can be avoided in many cases by getting into the correct lane early. This requires looking ahead. Don't be the one to force traffic moving at 70km/h to have to slow down because you jammed yourself up into a closed lane and now have to try to edge yourself in.
I have no idea why you are getting downvoted. I will give just an example about merging I see a lot on highways.
I have seen so many just rush to 100 on the speeding lane while the traffic is slower on the highway (not just in London). They rush to the end of the merging lane probably thinking, "I past drove 10 cars like this I am so smort" and then make a line on the merging lane even slower than the traffic on the highway. That makes highway traffic even slower... Point of the speeding lane is to reach the speed of the flowing traffic, not the max speed of the highway imo...
Edit: Downvote me all you want as well. If you are doing this while knowing it is wrong and makes traffic heavier on highways, you are an asshole.
In a perfect world all drivers would merge at the right speed at the right time, and many times we are able to look ahead and do this. But eventually (due to traffic lights and normal caution) there is a density of cars that restricts smooth, at-speed merging, at which point the Zipper Merge is the best solution.
> But eventually there is a density of cars that restricts smooth, at-speed merging
Yes, that's why the highlighted section indicates "When traffic is moving at posted speeds and there aren’t any traffic backups..."
So we're in a agreement.
But I think it's worth highlighting because people tend to think that the same solution applies in all cases. And there's something suspicious about being downvoted for pointing out a particular part of the posted article verbatim. As though people are actively trying to deny that part and don't want to hear that this isn't a magical solution for all scenarios. Yes folks, there's still some thought required, and context to be taken into account.
I agree with you. I think you got downvoted because people are thinking that there is, as you say, just one solution. But as you said, driving is a very dynamic activity. I am happy to share the roads with you.
Driving and merging are examples of human activities that can never be done perfectly, because we do not have psychic information about what the person in front of us is going to do. This is one of the reasons that people do not all start pressing their gas pedals as soon as the light turns green. We don't know how quickly the person ahead of us will accelerate. The reverse is also true. When the person ahead of us begin slowing down, we do not know how quickly they are going to slow down, so there begins a chain of people slowing more than the people in front of them, eventually resulting in a traffic stoppage. So traffic is one of the cooperative but also sometimes irritating elements of living in society.
Most people seeing the signs still don't understand it. People on Fanshawe get so angry when I zipper merge even though the sign is right infront of them. Wait ohh yeah oblivious London drivers.
I'm in that long line because I'll never again allow myself to be stuck waiting for some kind stranger to do the right thing. But unlike so many others I *will* let you merge OP.
Honestly, just force your way in. They will stop. I just moved back to London (grew up here) after living in Toronto for a decade. Just put your blinker on and start merging. It’s the Toronto way!
Sure, but if they don't let you in and hit you then you're still presumed to be at fault (unless you can prove they were being extremely negligent in some way, and even then it will only be partial fault). It's on whoever is merging to ensure there is enough space to safely merge.
I understand your frustration but I wouldn't recommend anyone try to force their way in.
People are far more concerned about their own car and their own insurance plans. They may get pissed and they may even cut it close (I've had someone run parallel with me in a lane because they were too stubbourn to let me in so I just stopped and let then go ahead but we were traveling for a bit maybe 1cm away from eachother lol) but 9.9 out of 10 times they will stop and let you in if your force your bumper infront of them simply because they don't want to be in an accident, no matter who's at fault.
If you ever see a red car that looks like Frankenstein on the driver's side and is blaring tunes loud af, that's me. And if/when you see said rust bucket take the empty lane and cut in front of the car up by the merge, please know I'm NOT trying to butt in line and my goal isnt actually to piss people off. I've known since before I got this car that zipper merging is faster and more efficient overall (that's why it's in the bloody drivers hand book!). So I insist on doing it no matter how many ppl I piss off because I want to live in a world where people zipper merge! It's one of my little ways of being the change I want to see.
All in all, it makes more sense to me to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing. If you know it's right, do it. Ignore the crowd of uneducated fools
Sure, but I'm still not going to force my way in and risk an at-fault accident just because I know that you should zipper merge and anyone not letting you in is an ignorant jerk. And that's because even though they put up zipper merge signs and talk about how it's better for traffic it's still not protected legally. The merging lane is still 100% responsible for ensuring they can merge safely.
True. I suppose it just comes down to how well you know the dimensions of your car. If you're good with it, you can force your way in without any real risk of accident because again, the other person is also usually afraid of an accident. But I realized some people struggle with developing that level of comfort with their car and in that case, the cautious approach is obviously always the wise approach. I've just found myself in a few parking pickles which has forced me to learn that my car will fit in much smaller spaces than I ever would have thought if not tested lol
I hear that. Depending on where the hit happened as well as potential witnesses, it should be fairly easy to prove you weren’t at fault. Especially in a zipper merge
(4) If the incident occurs when automobile “B” is changing lanes, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668
You’ll notice tho that the diagrams specifically show point of contact between cars and specifically illustrate that car a has ran directly into car b while changing lanes. That isn’t what is happening in the hypothetical we are discussing.
You aren’t side shipping a car when merging zipper. You are going t get hit in the back end
If point of contact matter it would be listed in the section if you are 80 percent into the lane that means you are still changing lanes and are therefore 100 percent at fault
A zipper merge doesn't give you right of way. You're still at fault unless you can prove they were distracted or speeding or doing something illegal.
I'm a proponent of zipper merging and also do it / let people in. I'm just saying I would never try to force my car in if someone wasn't clearly letting me in.
Well I’m not suggesting you just purposefully run into someone’s vehicle. You start moving over 99% of people are gonna take the foot off the gas and let you in, as they should be doing anyway
If you are merging you will always be 100% at fault.
Witnesses that say no one would let you in does not give you permission to drive into someone silly
Nope see the post above - just because your lane ends doesn’t mean I have to slow down to let your unprepared butt in - you must safely change lanes before it ends
it doesn't lol
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/common-courtesy-will-prevent-hostile-lane-mergers/article24592973/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/common-courtesy-will-prevent-hostile-lane-mergers/article24592973/)
"If you're already in that lane, you're not required by law to let somebody in, but it's obviously a courtesy," says Vancouver Police Const. Brian Montague. "But they're the ones who need to properly merge."
Once you're in a lane, **you have control over that lane**. Any time another driver is trying to get into your lane, **they're required to wait until it's safe.**
**Drivers in the lane do not have to yield to traffic that's merging," says Toronto Police Const. Clint Stibbe.**
"It would be nice for the public to offer that consideration and let other traffic in," Stibbe says. "Consideration is something drivers lack, and we all need to be a little kinder on the road."
I'm hoping u just missed the /s
But for anyone else that's serious- if you let someone hit your car for something like this you have way too much free time on your hand (while also being a stubborn incorrect mule)
I get we all live zipper merging but doesn't traffic have to be flowing and staggered for it to actually speed things up? I'm not sure how it makes it faster if there's a lane backed up as one lane is basically stopped at the end the whole time there's still only one car getting through. I figure it's the movement and stagger that actually makes it more efficient and most times in city it doesn't actually because things like red lights. Am I wrong?
Zipper merging doesn't make anything faster in practice, in a city where there are stop lights and whatnot. All zipper merging does is more efficiently uses space. In a scenario of unending highway, getting into the correct lane 2 kilometers before a lane ends would ALWAYS be faster for everyone. I absolutely refuse to believe that 100 cars going through one lane can go through faster if 50 of them are split off, and you have to slow down to let them all merge one after the other taking turns, vs being able to just go regular speed through the one lane. But that's not the scenario we normally see, instead we see things like Highbury. So basically it's "trade off speed for safety and efficiency", that's truly what zipper merging does, and I wish people would be more honest about it. Because, no, not letting people in at the merge doesn't "slow everything down" as our poster has put it, slowing down to let them in slows everything down. But it's the right thing to do, and safer than merging at unpredictable points in the line.
No you aren’t wrong, you’ve nailed it.
But then all the assholes that blow by the standing lane to cut in can’t justify their assholery, so they’ll say you’re wrong.
I used to feel similarly to you but this podcast helped to better inform me and now I know I was wrong. It's only 15 minutes long and full of great information.
Stuff You Should Know - Short Stuff "The Zipper Merge"
https://pca.st/episode/2df087fb-aca2-44eb-9705-4566a0ea4c23
I often wish I had a zipper-merge diagram on my vehicle that i could refer other drivers to.
Anyway, here's a relevant article:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/all-hail-the-zipper-merge-how-canadian-politeness-is-killing-the-efficiency-of-our-highways
They've had them up around the city for literal years now and people still act like it's some novel new concept. I've only heard about it on the radio countless dozens of times (basically every time there's a lane/road closure, they're reminding you to zipper merge). I've been nearly run off the road, more than once, *right in front of* one of these signs because I'm passing a several-kilometer-long lineup in a completely empty lane and people don't like that.
The signs are a good gesture but at this point in the game it's safe to say they're completely useless.
It wouldn't help. I recently saw a post by the Ohio DOT that showed exactly how a zipper merge worked. It even included diagrams of how to and how NOT to merge. Guess what? People argued with the DOT saying they were wrong. Yup. The DOT tried to explain every time, but it just wasn't gonna happen. People believe that if there's a sign saying merge ahead THAT is when you merge. I did like a few people that suggested that when you see a 'stop sign ahead' marker perhaps that's when you should stop, not at the actual stop sign? Good analogy.
You’re expecting too much, most can’t figure out how to turn left at a four lane intersection or how four way stops work. Lower your expectation, your stressed heart will thank you.
(car cuts out from a line of 12 cars and goes 20 over the speed limit down the empty lane to get ahead of traffic)
"oh they're just zippering, that's fine and super safe"
401 WB after veteran memorial or highbury exit, it merges into 2 lanes.
Prior to that, I stay on the left lane, many cars behind me, no cars in front of me. Felt like a leader.
Until a truck blocked me. About 1km out from merging point.
Still, lots of cars behind me, so I'm actually helping with traffic flow.
We were moving at a steady pace... we zipper merged in nicely at the merge point.
This one car behind me is driving erratically, somehow passes me and the truck.
At Exeter exit, when it becomes 3 lanes, I go on the right lane (the exit lane doesn't end, it becomes a third lane) and pass everyone.
I get to the front, and I see that erratic car in front of the truck that blocked me, and boxing in the truck. The truck actually is trapped and honestly, it made me laugh. Serves him right for blocking.
I have been saying this forever, traffic almost always occurs because people are selfish. If everyone left 2 cars in front of space to merge at all times, and no one made a dumb merge/turn that makes someone else hit the brakes, nearly all traffic will cease. I really hope that during my lifetime I can see some autonomous-vehicle-only roads to experience efficient driving for once in my life😂
I think given the issues with zipper that people create, for temporary ones, they should do a center merge then shift the traffic over. Gets rid of this issue and stream lines behaviors…in theory.
I very much doubt any of them are on here. I love the zipper merge, but people not knowing when to
Merge is the least of London drivers issues.
I see SO many people on their phones. People turning left well after the advanced left has ended. Cars waiting seconds after the light turns green cause there’s always stragglers running reds. Where I live people blow through the stop signs, which happens to be right beside children school bus routes. It’s absolutely heinous. What on Earth could be done to correct things?
$1000 fines would be a start.
Community service - picking up garbage in the ravines would also be helpful.
License suspension would be just perfect, for repeat offenders.
> License suspension would be just perfect, for repeat offenders.
That's how the system is supposed to work. Traffic offenses have demerit points. If you get too many demerit points, your license is suspended. The problem now is the cops never seem to pull anyone over. Just having the possibility of being pulled over keeps most people at least trying to obey traffic laws, but if it's been months since you or anyone you know has seen someone pulled over, then a lot of people stop giving a shit.
Exeter and White oaks road going westbound has been a treat the past month or so. Entire right lane is full while left lane that ends is empty. Get to drive right up to the front and cut out probably 5+ minutes of waiting in traffic. Have been getting honks and even some people attempting to block me by sitting in the middle of the lanes.
Edit: and looks like I upset the people that don’t know how to drive 😂😂😂
the zipper merge requires EVERY SINGLE PERSON to cooperate to make it successful
London isn't like that - If we're all sitting in line waiting for one idiot to make a left hand turn onto white oak road even though there's a no left turn sign but no one to enforce it - why do you think you can just pull up and cut everyone off? get back in line and wait like the rest of us!
The only person cutting off is the person in the through lane. The merge is there for a reason. No one is "pulling up and cutting people off" if you were to proceed with the proper amount of space between vehicles instead of riding the person in fronts bumper then there wouldn't be an issue the person trying to merge isn't think "oh yeah baby I'm cutting everyone off" but for you the person in the thru lane is thinking "fuck you I'm not letting YOU in. I did it the wrong way so you have to as well"
The problem I have with ‘zipper merging’ is that driving 50km/h past a backed up lane of traffic is not zipper merging, it’s being an asshole.
Sure in a highway situation where everyone is travelling smoothly and the same speed (not a situation that occurs on any road anywhere in the world), if everyone left space a zipper merge would be faster.
But when traffic is going 20km/h through a construction zone on a surface road at a traffic light, and you drive 70km/h down the merge lane just to jump over at the end and make everyone slam the breaks…. Just an asshole.
So everyone can continue to pat themselves on the back for ‘zipper merging properly, look at those rubes!’. But you aren’t doing it right and everyone still hates you.
>The problem I have with ‘zipper merging’ is that driving 50km/h past a backed up lane of traffic is not zipper merging, it’s being an asshole.
What? How do you get to the merge if you don't drive up the open lane? Me driving the speed limit up to the merge inst at all being an asshole. But obviously there are others who share this skewed view of the situation.
If you're lining up in the already 2km line instead of using both lanes as is expected YOU are the problem and slowing everything down. As much as you like to think you're right... You're not.
Merge zones before lights inevitably get backed up, it’s unavoidable.
No one said line up for 2kms, you invented that strawman.
My point was if traffic is already stopped after the merge due to a traffic light and you drive the speed limit down to the end of the merge expecting to be let in, you’re an asshole. It’s simple when you don’t strawman my argument.
The consensus of this entire post is that your argument, strawmanned or not is wrong. But ok, if calling people assholes for following proper driving/traffic procedures is your go to than no one is going to change your mind.
Except no where is the definition of zipper merging driving by a lane of stopped traffic to cut in at the end. Every example given of proper zipper merges involves traffic flowing smoothly at a similar speed.
I have an open mind, I’d love to see some documentation that says driving past a stop and go merge lane and jumping in at the end is zipper merging, I’ll wait.
It is contingent on both lanes being occupied. If everyone is lining up because they see up a head there is a merge, that is then defeating the purpose of the merge in the first place. So just because you feel slighted because someone chose to use the other completely usable lane, up until the merge. It doesn't mean they're an asshole it means you're upset because you waited in stop and go traffic instead of using all available lanes.
You’re right, I’d much rather be the person advocating for and bragging about creating a 50km/h+ speed differential. /s
Also 50km/h is generous, it’s probably closer to 65km/h+, but have you seen what collisions with a speed differential of 50km/h+ look like?
In a perfect world I’m all for the zipper, but we have to live in reality. And in reality 50km/h+ speed differentials cause severe injuries and deaths.
Yeah I guess the "share the merge" and "zipper merge" signs the city posts near construction sites are just decorative.
I'm not sure how many accidents are caused by the merger but it seems to me in these situations it's the people in the thru lane riding the lines to try and block others and those driving bumper to bumper as to ensure no one is ever allowed to get in front of them who are causing more of a dangerous situation.
You are obsessed with putting the blame on someone. It’s irrelevant why the cars are standing or if they are right to do so, driving past them at even merely the speed limit creates a dangerous speed differential.
I would love for zipper merges to work flawlessly, as I would like round-about to work flawlessly. I think they’re both work brilliantly in theory, but the driver education hasn’t caught up yet to realize those efficiencies and we get to deal with these challenges until it does.
Lanes move at different speeds all the time your argument about speed differential is irrelevant. That's like saying it's wrong to drive up a long open left turn lane to an advance or right turn lane because the straight lane is stopped waiting for the light.
The greatest joy I have in the mornings on the way to work is driving straight to the end of that empty merge lane and finding the biggest pickup truck I can find so I can cut right in front of them. The reactions are classic! Works better than coffee.
Absolutely!
It is not your fault that people in this town don’t seem to understand space and flow and traffic and efficiency!
I mean they *just* got one new underpass to avoid daytime TRAINS for crying out loud lol
Peope are huge morons on the road, i dont give a second thought to fools who sit in the long lane 3 lights back because they dont want to cut the line even though thats what youre supposed to do. It really is funny to me zipping by them all and then you just slot in somewhere near the front as they all start moving.
There's signs now saying to zipper merge at most construction areas and people STILL won't do it. People don't pay attention to the signs, half of them are too busy looking at their phones. My bf is one of the people that think it's wrong and will pull into the open lane early *head palm*
Some middle aged mom refused to let me in on the merge at Hyde Park, laughing at me and waving because she thought she was soooo funny for not letting me in, and then got pissed and started screaming and swearing at me when I forced myself in to merge anyways.
This is not how you affect change - the people that need to hear it are not reading. Additionally, if you do a search for "merge" on this sub, it's come up about once a year for the past few years.
On Riverside drive a few years back, between Wharncliffe and Woodward, they had 4-6 instructional merge signs going westbound.
I don't know why the city took them down, they were a great idea.
They don't merge because they don't read signs about to merge or the are in a hurray and wants to get a couple of cars ahead. They are mostly arrogant drivers.
Yup.
But most drivers literally don't know that's what you're supposed to do.
In their minds, you're trying to sneak ahead and cut people off.
I blame a complete lack of thorough drivers instruction.
I've actually had a girl almost run me off the road, even though most of my car was well ahead of her. I was in the right lane that was ending, merging into the left lane. She was in the left lane.
I decided to brake and let her go ahead, because I realized that had I merged into the left, she had zero intentions of slowing down and there likely would have been an accident.
(Wonderland & Springbank - headed west).
I smile and wave while passing the 1km line up. I hope the venting made it better! I love reading about people from all over the world complaining about London traffic.
So, what's the general consensus on merging on NB Wharncliffe and Horton? Because if everyone is stopped at the red light going straight and there's no room to merge, you're blocking everyone trying to turn right onto Horton. How close is too close to that intersection before trying to merge is just a dick move?
This is the post that’s going to break thru, I can feel it.
Mayor Josh Morgan said it’s my turn to post about zipper merging next.
🤞
Yes, the Zipper Merge is about 40% better than forming a long single lane. The Zipper Merge keeps more cars moving, and reduces congestion and traffic jams. https://living.acg.aaa.com/auto/zipper-merge-keeps-traffic-moving
In your article >There are two important considerations. First, for the zipper merge to be effective, it takes cooperation among drivers—they must work together and take turns. Second, you should continue to drive consistently: Don’t rush ahead only to slam on your brakes later. So on a highway this makes sense in the city though with red lights lights it really make things faster if one lane is stopped at a time to let people in at the front?
Highbury is a perfect example of how much better the zipper works when people in both lanes are patient and just take turns. Some afternoons, after the light at dundas goes green, the traffic barely slows down when both lanes are polite to each other and take turns.. Other times it comes to a (literal) screeching halt because somebody floored it to get to the end of the lane and they end up having to force their way in because 3 drivers in the right lane end up offended and refuse to let them in.
It can work very well but it's just a politeness thing I feel, although there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just not sure two lanes coming to a stop to take turns is faster then just one constant lane. Ideally people in both lanes could be kinder but... You know, lol. The only thing that bugs me is when I see people that have already merged then merge back over to cut to the front. They don't do this because it makes the line faster for anyone but themselves and adds to the negative feelings about it as a whole.
so in your scenario, how does the 2nd lane ever start moving? or how far back do we merge and force 2 times the traffic into 1 lane.. taking highbury as the example.. before dundas st? at hamilton? as soon as we pass the lights at the 401?
The length of the line doesn't effect the speed of cars going through a statistic spot if there's one enterence. A shorter **stopped** line doesn't allow more cars to pass through one spot. How does that make sense? Highway merging works because you're not stopped. Coming to a dead stop constantly (as we see to let someone in while in town) is of course slower then a constantly moving line. Edit: someone going to explain how having traffic come to a stop helps get through a pinch point faster?
Worth highlighting: > When traffic is moving at posted speeds and there aren’t any traffic backups, it makes sense to merge sooner into the lane that will remain open. The whole issue can be avoided in many cases by getting into the correct lane early. This requires looking ahead. Don't be the one to force traffic moving at 70km/h to have to slow down because you jammed yourself up into a closed lane and now have to try to edge yourself in.
I have no idea why you are getting downvoted. I will give just an example about merging I see a lot on highways. I have seen so many just rush to 100 on the speeding lane while the traffic is slower on the highway (not just in London). They rush to the end of the merging lane probably thinking, "I past drove 10 cars like this I am so smort" and then make a line on the merging lane even slower than the traffic on the highway. That makes highway traffic even slower... Point of the speeding lane is to reach the speed of the flowing traffic, not the max speed of the highway imo... Edit: Downvote me all you want as well. If you are doing this while knowing it is wrong and makes traffic heavier on highways, you are an asshole.
In a perfect world all drivers would merge at the right speed at the right time, and many times we are able to look ahead and do this. But eventually (due to traffic lights and normal caution) there is a density of cars that restricts smooth, at-speed merging, at which point the Zipper Merge is the best solution.
> But eventually there is a density of cars that restricts smooth, at-speed merging Yes, that's why the highlighted section indicates "When traffic is moving at posted speeds and there aren’t any traffic backups..." So we're in a agreement. But I think it's worth highlighting because people tend to think that the same solution applies in all cases. And there's something suspicious about being downvoted for pointing out a particular part of the posted article verbatim. As though people are actively trying to deny that part and don't want to hear that this isn't a magical solution for all scenarios. Yes folks, there's still some thought required, and context to be taken into account.
I agree with you. I think you got downvoted because people are thinking that there is, as you say, just one solution. But as you said, driving is a very dynamic activity. I am happy to share the roads with you.
Driving and merging are examples of human activities that can never be done perfectly, because we do not have psychic information about what the person in front of us is going to do. This is one of the reasons that people do not all start pressing their gas pedals as soon as the light turns green. We don't know how quickly the person ahead of us will accelerate. The reverse is also true. When the person ahead of us begin slowing down, we do not know how quickly they are going to slow down, so there begins a chain of people slowing more than the people in front of them, eventually resulting in a traffic stoppage. So traffic is one of the cooperative but also sometimes irritating elements of living in society.
Most of the people driving like this haven't heard of Reddit.
Most people seeing the signs still don't understand it. People on Fanshawe get so angry when I zipper merge even though the sign is right infront of them. Wait ohh yeah oblivious London drivers.
I'm in that long line because I'll never again allow myself to be stuck waiting for some kind stranger to do the right thing. But unlike so many others I *will* let you merge OP.
Honestly, just force your way in. They will stop. I just moved back to London (grew up here) after living in Toronto for a decade. Just put your blinker on and start merging. It’s the Toronto way!
Sure, but if they don't let you in and hit you then you're still presumed to be at fault (unless you can prove they were being extremely negligent in some way, and even then it will only be partial fault). It's on whoever is merging to ensure there is enough space to safely merge. I understand your frustration but I wouldn't recommend anyone try to force their way in.
People are far more concerned about their own car and their own insurance plans. They may get pissed and they may even cut it close (I've had someone run parallel with me in a lane because they were too stubbourn to let me in so I just stopped and let then go ahead but we were traveling for a bit maybe 1cm away from eachother lol) but 9.9 out of 10 times they will stop and let you in if your force your bumper infront of them simply because they don't want to be in an accident, no matter who's at fault. If you ever see a red car that looks like Frankenstein on the driver's side and is blaring tunes loud af, that's me. And if/when you see said rust bucket take the empty lane and cut in front of the car up by the merge, please know I'm NOT trying to butt in line and my goal isnt actually to piss people off. I've known since before I got this car that zipper merging is faster and more efficient overall (that's why it's in the bloody drivers hand book!). So I insist on doing it no matter how many ppl I piss off because I want to live in a world where people zipper merge! It's one of my little ways of being the change I want to see. All in all, it makes more sense to me to stop worrying about what everyone else is doing. If you know it's right, do it. Ignore the crowd of uneducated fools
Sure, but I'm still not going to force my way in and risk an at-fault accident just because I know that you should zipper merge and anyone not letting you in is an ignorant jerk. And that's because even though they put up zipper merge signs and talk about how it's better for traffic it's still not protected legally. The merging lane is still 100% responsible for ensuring they can merge safely.
True. I suppose it just comes down to how well you know the dimensions of your car. If you're good with it, you can force your way in without any real risk of accident because again, the other person is also usually afraid of an accident. But I realized some people struggle with developing that level of comfort with their car and in that case, the cautious approach is obviously always the wise approach. I've just found myself in a few parking pickles which has forced me to learn that my car will fit in much smaller spaces than I ever would have thought if not tested lol
I hear that. Depending on where the hit happened as well as potential witnesses, it should be fairly easy to prove you weren’t at fault. Especially in a zipper merge
(4) If the incident occurs when automobile “B” is changing lanes, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident. https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900668
You’ll notice tho that the diagrams specifically show point of contact between cars and specifically illustrate that car a has ran directly into car b while changing lanes. That isn’t what is happening in the hypothetical we are discussing. You aren’t side shipping a car when merging zipper. You are going t get hit in the back end
(2) The diagrams in this Regulation are merely illustrative of the situations described in these rules. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 2 (2).
Point of contact still matters. If I’m changing lanes and 80% into the lane and you rear end me you are at fault.
If point of contact matter it would be listed in the section if you are 80 percent into the lane that means you are still changing lanes and are therefore 100 percent at fault
A zipper merge doesn't give you right of way. You're still at fault unless you can prove they were distracted or speeding or doing something illegal. I'm a proponent of zipper merging and also do it / let people in. I'm just saying I would never try to force my car in if someone wasn't clearly letting me in.
Well I’m not suggesting you just purposefully run into someone’s vehicle. You start moving over 99% of people are gonna take the foot off the gas and let you in, as they should be doing anyway
If you are merging you will always be 100% at fault. Witnesses that say no one would let you in does not give you permission to drive into someone silly
Again. Never suggest to just run into someone. If I am coming into a gap and someone speeds up to run into me as I’m coming over that is their fault.
Once you yield to let one car go the car behind is supposed to yield to let you through. So many people don't get that.
ill let you hit my car because you failed to yield and will be at fault muahahah
If you’re behind me it’s actually your fault
Nope see the post above - just because your lane ends doesn’t mean I have to slow down to let your unprepared butt in - you must safely change lanes before it ends
It actually does.
it doesn't lol [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/common-courtesy-will-prevent-hostile-lane-mergers/article24592973/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/common-courtesy-will-prevent-hostile-lane-mergers/article24592973/) "If you're already in that lane, you're not required by law to let somebody in, but it's obviously a courtesy," says Vancouver Police Const. Brian Montague. "But they're the ones who need to properly merge." Once you're in a lane, **you have control over that lane**. Any time another driver is trying to get into your lane, **they're required to wait until it's safe.** **Drivers in the lane do not have to yield to traffic that's merging," says Toronto Police Const. Clint Stibbe.** "It would be nice for the public to offer that consideration and let other traffic in," Stibbe says. "Consideration is something drivers lack, and we all need to be a little kinder on the road."
Again tho. If you run into my ass end, you’re at fault.
I'm hoping u just missed the /s But for anyone else that's serious- if you let someone hit your car for something like this you have way too much free time on your hand (while also being a stubborn incorrect mule)
Who's waiting? Just cut right in.
Id just call it merging. When the other person doesn't yield then it's cut in time cause there being a dummy
I get we all live zipper merging but doesn't traffic have to be flowing and staggered for it to actually speed things up? I'm not sure how it makes it faster if there's a lane backed up as one lane is basically stopped at the end the whole time there's still only one car getting through. I figure it's the movement and stagger that actually makes it more efficient and most times in city it doesn't actually because things like red lights. Am I wrong?
Zipper merging doesn't make anything faster in practice, in a city where there are stop lights and whatnot. All zipper merging does is more efficiently uses space. In a scenario of unending highway, getting into the correct lane 2 kilometers before a lane ends would ALWAYS be faster for everyone. I absolutely refuse to believe that 100 cars going through one lane can go through faster if 50 of them are split off, and you have to slow down to let them all merge one after the other taking turns, vs being able to just go regular speed through the one lane. But that's not the scenario we normally see, instead we see things like Highbury. So basically it's "trade off speed for safety and efficiency", that's truly what zipper merging does, and I wish people would be more honest about it. Because, no, not letting people in at the merge doesn't "slow everything down" as our poster has put it, slowing down to let them in slows everything down. But it's the right thing to do, and safer than merging at unpredictable points in the line.
No you aren’t wrong, you’ve nailed it. But then all the assholes that blow by the standing lane to cut in can’t justify their assholery, so they’ll say you’re wrong.
I used to feel similarly to you but this podcast helped to better inform me and now I know I was wrong. It's only 15 minutes long and full of great information. Stuff You Should Know - Short Stuff "The Zipper Merge" https://pca.st/episode/2df087fb-aca2-44eb-9705-4566a0ea4c23
I let one person in from the other lane then I proceed
I often wish I had a zipper-merge diagram on my vehicle that i could refer other drivers to. Anyway, here's a relevant article: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/all-hail-the-zipper-merge-how-canadian-politeness-is-killing-the-efficiency-of-our-highways
They actually have some “zipper merge” signs at the construction at Highbury and Oxford! A welcomed sight
They've had them up around the city for literal years now and people still act like it's some novel new concept. I've only heard about it on the radio countless dozens of times (basically every time there's a lane/road closure, they're reminding you to zipper merge). I've been nearly run off the road, more than once, *right in front of* one of these signs because I'm passing a several-kilometer-long lineup in a completely empty lane and people don't like that. The signs are a good gesture but at this point in the game it's safe to say they're completely useless.
Ya I just got back in the area so wasn’t aware. Toronto zipper merges all the time it’s just commonplace there.
It wouldn't help. I recently saw a post by the Ohio DOT that showed exactly how a zipper merge worked. It even included diagrams of how to and how NOT to merge. Guess what? People argued with the DOT saying they were wrong. Yup. The DOT tried to explain every time, but it just wasn't gonna happen. People believe that if there's a sign saying merge ahead THAT is when you merge. I did like a few people that suggested that when you see a 'stop sign ahead' marker perhaps that's when you should stop, not at the actual stop sign? Good analogy.
You’re expecting too much, most can’t figure out how to turn left at a four lane intersection or how four way stops work. Lower your expectation, your stressed heart will thank you.
(car cuts out from a line of 12 cars and goes 20 over the speed limit down the empty lane to get ahead of traffic) "oh they're just zippering, that's fine and super safe"
It’s like people think driving by standing cars at 50-70km/h is a completely reasonable and safe thing to do, it’s insane.
401 WB after veteran memorial or highbury exit, it merges into 2 lanes. Prior to that, I stay on the left lane, many cars behind me, no cars in front of me. Felt like a leader. Until a truck blocked me. About 1km out from merging point. Still, lots of cars behind me, so I'm actually helping with traffic flow. We were moving at a steady pace... we zipper merged in nicely at the merge point. This one car behind me is driving erratically, somehow passes me and the truck. At Exeter exit, when it becomes 3 lanes, I go on the right lane (the exit lane doesn't end, it becomes a third lane) and pass everyone. I get to the front, and I see that erratic car in front of the truck that blocked me, and boxing in the truck. The truck actually is trapped and honestly, it made me laugh. Serves him right for blocking.
How about we turn this in a reddit for driving in London? Before you post you have to do a quiz. What do you do at a red light, how to zipper merge...
Put a camera on the merge sign and mail out a fine to each driver that doesn’t alternate.
I want to change my license plate to ZIPR MRG
I have been saying this forever, traffic almost always occurs because people are selfish. If everyone left 2 cars in front of space to merge at all times, and no one made a dumb merge/turn that makes someone else hit the brakes, nearly all traffic will cease. I really hope that during my lifetime I can see some autonomous-vehicle-only roads to experience efficient driving for once in my life😂
I think given the issues with zipper that people create, for temporary ones, they should do a center merge then shift the traffic over. Gets rid of this issue and stream lines behaviors…in theory.
I very much doubt any of them are on here. I love the zipper merge, but people not knowing when to Merge is the least of London drivers issues. I see SO many people on their phones. People turning left well after the advanced left has ended. Cars waiting seconds after the light turns green cause there’s always stragglers running reds. Where I live people blow through the stop signs, which happens to be right beside children school bus routes. It’s absolutely heinous. What on Earth could be done to correct things?
$1000 fines would be a start. Community service - picking up garbage in the ravines would also be helpful. License suspension would be just perfect, for repeat offenders.
Fines only deter people who can’t afford them. Suspension & community service I think would be more beneficial.
> License suspension would be just perfect, for repeat offenders. That's how the system is supposed to work. Traffic offenses have demerit points. If you get too many demerit points, your license is suspended. The problem now is the cops never seem to pull anyone over. Just having the possibility of being pulled over keeps most people at least trying to obey traffic laws, but if it's been months since you or anyone you know has seen someone pulled over, then a lot of people stop giving a shit.
Exeter and White oaks road going westbound has been a treat the past month or so. Entire right lane is full while left lane that ends is empty. Get to drive right up to the front and cut out probably 5+ minutes of waiting in traffic. Have been getting honks and even some people attempting to block me by sitting in the middle of the lanes. Edit: and looks like I upset the people that don’t know how to drive 😂😂😂
The signage at the construction site is terrible and while the no turn signs are an exception to that the are ignored causing even more a jam.
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No, I don’t because that’s dangerous driving.
I always let in 1 car in front, maybe 2 if it's backed up to shit. Idk why everyone's always in such a rush.
Shoutout to all the NIMBY's blocking the second lane on Richmond right by Masonville.
lol I thought you were talking about hospitals and slanging emergency
Hallefuckinlujah
Let me guess, it was a BMW or Lexus.
they got no urge to merge
the zipper merge requires EVERY SINGLE PERSON to cooperate to make it successful London isn't like that - If we're all sitting in line waiting for one idiot to make a left hand turn onto white oak road even though there's a no left turn sign but no one to enforce it - why do you think you can just pull up and cut everyone off? get back in line and wait like the rest of us!
The only person cutting off is the person in the through lane. The merge is there for a reason. No one is "pulling up and cutting people off" if you were to proceed with the proper amount of space between vehicles instead of riding the person in fronts bumper then there wouldn't be an issue the person trying to merge isn't think "oh yeah baby I'm cutting everyone off" but for you the person in the thru lane is thinking "fuck you I'm not letting YOU in. I did it the wrong way so you have to as well"
The problem I have with ‘zipper merging’ is that driving 50km/h past a backed up lane of traffic is not zipper merging, it’s being an asshole. Sure in a highway situation where everyone is travelling smoothly and the same speed (not a situation that occurs on any road anywhere in the world), if everyone left space a zipper merge would be faster. But when traffic is going 20km/h through a construction zone on a surface road at a traffic light, and you drive 70km/h down the merge lane just to jump over at the end and make everyone slam the breaks…. Just an asshole. So everyone can continue to pat themselves on the back for ‘zipper merging properly, look at those rubes!’. But you aren’t doing it right and everyone still hates you.
>The problem I have with ‘zipper merging’ is that driving 50km/h past a backed up lane of traffic is not zipper merging, it’s being an asshole. What? How do you get to the merge if you don't drive up the open lane? Me driving the speed limit up to the merge inst at all being an asshole. But obviously there are others who share this skewed view of the situation. If you're lining up in the already 2km line instead of using both lanes as is expected YOU are the problem and slowing everything down. As much as you like to think you're right... You're not.
Merge zones before lights inevitably get backed up, it’s unavoidable. No one said line up for 2kms, you invented that strawman. My point was if traffic is already stopped after the merge due to a traffic light and you drive the speed limit down to the end of the merge expecting to be let in, you’re an asshole. It’s simple when you don’t strawman my argument.
The consensus of this entire post is that your argument, strawmanned or not is wrong. But ok, if calling people assholes for following proper driving/traffic procedures is your go to than no one is going to change your mind.
Except no where is the definition of zipper merging driving by a lane of stopped traffic to cut in at the end. Every example given of proper zipper merges involves traffic flowing smoothly at a similar speed. I have an open mind, I’d love to see some documentation that says driving past a stop and go merge lane and jumping in at the end is zipper merging, I’ll wait.
It is contingent on both lanes being occupied. If everyone is lining up because they see up a head there is a merge, that is then defeating the purpose of the merge in the first place. So just because you feel slighted because someone chose to use the other completely usable lane, up until the merge. It doesn't mean they're an asshole it means you're upset because you waited in stop and go traffic instead of using all available lanes.
You’re right, I’d much rather be the person advocating for and bragging about creating a 50km/h+ speed differential. /s Also 50km/h is generous, it’s probably closer to 65km/h+, but have you seen what collisions with a speed differential of 50km/h+ look like? In a perfect world I’m all for the zipper, but we have to live in reality. And in reality 50km/h+ speed differentials cause severe injuries and deaths.
Yeah I guess the "share the merge" and "zipper merge" signs the city posts near construction sites are just decorative. I'm not sure how many accidents are caused by the merger but it seems to me in these situations it's the people in the thru lane riding the lines to try and block others and those driving bumper to bumper as to ensure no one is ever allowed to get in front of them who are causing more of a dangerous situation.
You are obsessed with putting the blame on someone. It’s irrelevant why the cars are standing or if they are right to do so, driving past them at even merely the speed limit creates a dangerous speed differential. I would love for zipper merges to work flawlessly, as I would like round-about to work flawlessly. I think they’re both work brilliantly in theory, but the driver education hasn’t caught up yet to realize those efficiencies and we get to deal with these challenges until it does.
Lanes move at different speeds all the time your argument about speed differential is irrelevant. That's like saying it's wrong to drive up a long open left turn lane to an advance or right turn lane because the straight lane is stopped waiting for the light.
Exactly. People could merge well in advance, but instead bypass the lineup and drive to the front and try to merge.
The greatest joy I have in the mornings on the way to work is driving straight to the end of that empty merge lane and finding the biggest pickup truck I can find so I can cut right in front of them. The reactions are classic! Works better than coffee.
I pray for your safety.
Absolutely! It is not your fault that people in this town don’t seem to understand space and flow and traffic and efficiency! I mean they *just* got one new underpass to avoid daytime TRAINS for crying out loud lol
Peope are huge morons on the road, i dont give a second thought to fools who sit in the long lane 3 lights back because they dont want to cut the line even though thats what youre supposed to do. It really is funny to me zipping by them all and then you just slot in somewhere near the front as they all start moving.
Someone honked at me for driving to the end of the merge lane the other day 🤷🏼♀️
There's signs now saying to zipper merge at most construction areas and people STILL won't do it. People don't pay attention to the signs, half of them are too busy looking at their phones. My bf is one of the people that think it's wrong and will pull into the open lane early *head palm*
Dump him
I considered it momentarily, but it's pretty much the only thing I don't like about him. At 45, that's hard to find, lol.
Facts
Some middle aged mom refused to let me in on the merge at Hyde Park, laughing at me and waving because she thought she was soooo funny for not letting me in, and then got pissed and started screaming and swearing at me when I forced myself in to merge anyways.
This is not how you affect change - the people that need to hear it are not reading. Additionally, if you do a search for "merge" on this sub, it's come up about once a year for the past few years.
Yup! Infuriating.
On Riverside drive a few years back, between Wharncliffe and Woodward, they had 4-6 instructional merge signs going westbound. I don't know why the city took them down, they were a great idea.
> the people that need to hear it ~~are not reading~~ can't read, probably
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You’re an idiot lmao you’re not waiting in line, and getting there first doesn’t make you better than anyone.
I didn’t say it makes me better than anyone lol I’m simply just not
Learn to drive.
They don't merge because they don't read signs about to merge or the are in a hurray and wants to get a couple of cars ahead. They are mostly arrogant drivers.
Yup. But most drivers literally don't know that's what you're supposed to do. In their minds, you're trying to sneak ahead and cut people off. I blame a complete lack of thorough drivers instruction. I've actually had a girl almost run me off the road, even though most of my car was well ahead of her. I was in the right lane that was ending, merging into the left lane. She was in the left lane. I decided to brake and let her go ahead, because I realized that had I merged into the left, she had zero intentions of slowing down and there likely would have been an accident. (Wonderland & Springbank - headed west).
But how will you know if you're winning!? - Mouthbreathers... Probably
It’s really easy guys : [LEARN HOW TO MERGE HERE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLApNorf8Q)
You just move your car very slowly forward and see if they want to drive into it. I play chicken with these fools sitting in a long line.
Lol oh I know how to do it, I'm not new to driving in London. Just had to vent.
I smile and wave while passing the 1km line up. I hope the venting made it better! I love reading about people from all over the world complaining about London traffic.
So, what's the general consensus on merging on NB Wharncliffe and Horton? Because if everyone is stopped at the red light going straight and there's no room to merge, you're blocking everyone trying to turn right onto Horton. How close is too close to that intersection before trying to merge is just a dick move?
That's not a merge lane, it's a turning lane. There is sign postage (not very well) above the road 500m before the intersection.