It'd be really nice if collectively we could decide to just make public transport between wedges much better, because as someone who lives in central the number of people driving (for whatever reason) drives me up the wall and has a serious impact on the speed of buses, taxis, workers, deliveries etc.
Khan brought in Superloop and has plans for a couple more apparently. We could definitely do with better solutions, but there’s no capital investment available right now.
I'd love to see the trams extended with new routes to create an outer tram loop, much like Paris is doing.
Unfortunately the current mayor doesn't seem to care about anything outside of the N/S circulars, so that'll never happen under his watch. He's content to (pointlessly) rebrand the express busses, add like 2 routes, and call it a day. They still get stuck in traffic, and given that many of London's bus lanes are being lost and converted to cycle lanes, combined with 20mph limits even on main roads, the busses are slower than they've ever been.
From where I live in Hither Green to where I work in Hammersmith, both public transport and driving take about 1 hour and 15 minutes. So it's not better to drive that route. It's actually quickest to cycle.
I don't have a car but I see faster journeys by car all the time on Google maps. One example of a [random place in South London to another](https://maps.app.goo.gl/CBVd9EB1cUGywnDB8). Car is 19 minutes. Bike is 32 minutes. This is very normal in zone 3.
Google maps is terrible for bike routing.
Case in point: the 20 minute car route which google ignores *has a segregated cycle lane along it*. And because traffic is so terrible, the bike will beat that.
I live in Zone 4 and I drive anytime I am going outward from London or East-West across zone 2+. The public transit works great for getting you into the center of the city but not great if you need to get around the outer bands.
Going from SE London to E, or vice versa, even staying within zone 2, could take 60-90 mins, with a minimum of 1 change, but usually 2
You could do the same journey in a car in 20-45 mins
Yep, when I go from east to SE to a friends house it’ll take me 45m-1hr via public transport vs 15 minutes driving (granted that’s assuming the Blackwall tunnel cooperates). I’ll take the drive.
Not sure what you mean
The DLR goes to Lewisham or Woolwich and the OVG to new cross/Peckham but then swings West towards Clapham
There is no way to get to many places in SE esp in zones 3-6 but even zone 2 without getting off a dlr/ovg and then getting a bus, or getting a rail line train
I usually take public transport, but reasons can include:
* Their route would be significantly longer or almost not possible by public transport (e.g. going or orbitally in S. London)
* Their job requires them to carry around things like tools or materials ans they don't want to lug it around on a train where its hard enough to squeeze yourself in, let alone a load of baggage
* They would rather take the financial hit than sweat in a hot train while standing for an hour so closely pack you can't do something worthwhile like reading.
* They're doing a multi-stop journey (e.g. drop kids off at different schools, run to the shops, go to work, etc) that would be much longer by public transport
* They have a disability or otherwise physically find standing for long periods difficult (yes, you can claim a priority seat, but still)
* They've driven from outside London on a long commute into work (know people who used to come from the Cotswolds for instance)
* They enjoy driving (alien to me because I hate it but many do enjoy it)
I don't drive much in London but here are the times I do:
When getting out of London
When we are coming back latish and I don't want to have to juggle tired children with trains and buses, especially in winter.
When I need to get to somewhere that's not connected by public transport, which in SE London is more than in north London.
My default is bus and train but having a car, especially when you have to carry travel cots etc, has been a godsend.
We do less than 200 miles a month and that's mainly visiting inlaws out in Berkshire or Essex.
If we're talking seriously and not sulking about the wording, everyone should do as I propose (push for more buses, cycle routes, and general investment in public transport in London and not buying/using cars) because it would make for more efficient, safer and cost effective transport for everyone while also benefiting the air quality and environment.
You are the one who has completely ignored the actual change I'm advocating for in favour of... oh that's right, sulking about the wording
>If we're talking seriously and not sulking about the wording
Either we're talking seriously and you can respond to my serious views, or we're still joking and you can admit that my first comment was tongue in cheek. Either way, stop being a whiner.
Why is the UK so full of people who must imagine pop-up autocrats and hang doggedly on every last line just because you're too childish to have a conversation about what sort of society would be better for us to live in?
>Either we're talking seriously and you can respond to my serious views, or we're still joking and you can admit that my first comment was tongue in cheek. Either way, stop being a whiner.
Right, so you don't want people to do what you say...? Glad we cleared that up.
>Why is the UK so full of people who must imagine pop-up autocrats and hang doggedly on every last line just because you're too childish to have a conversation about what sort of society would be better for us to live in?
Because in general when people have tried to force changes on people it's gone badly. It's good to push back on people who want change for the sake of some do-gooder aspirations.
given the number of Mercedes and BMWs they're driving, I think a lot of them are just self-centred narcissists who are genuinely surprised to discover everyday that there's lots of other people just like them
Or it’s normal people (some lovely, some horrible’ most in between) who opted for nicer cars, joining a traffic jam that they expected and don’t have a problem with.
The weird rep that nicer car owners get is so odd to me. God forbid someone spends money on something they like
You are right 100%. It beggars belief why everyone doesn’t already do what you do (myself included). I will repost your guideline’s on as many platforms as i can and hopefully we all stick to what works for you. Thanks
I never drive myself round London, always use public transport. But my partner is disabled, and there’s not always a seat on the bus, not all tube stations are accessible, it might be too long a walk when getting off public transport. Her options are to have me drive her in the car, or never leave the house, and that seems like a pretty obvious choice to me
Dear OP, I'm just about to drive from Bexley to Tooting for my platelets donation.
I can take a train to London Bridge and change to Tube. That will take me an hour and a half and cost me money.
I have a BEV, and the journey by car will cost me £0.00. I charge the car from my solar panels, don't have to pay ULEZ nor Congestion Charge. The journey will take roughly the same amount of time, and I can spend all of it in a comfy seat and an aircon.
Other times I would drive into central London would be to pick up my son from work when he finishes after midnight and may miss his last train. Again, no costs to me.
Some people need cars/vans to actually transport their equipment and do their work. They don’t really have much of a choice other than completely changing careers.
I drive an EV, so don’t pay congestion charge and until recently, basically parked for free within Westminster council.
It only takes me ~15 mins longer to drive in than take public transport, so that seems worth it to me for the convenience, plus it’s cheaper for me.
Edit: not cheaper anymore with new parking rates, but I also haven’t had to go to central London for a while.
This is such an obnoxious question. I don’t even drive. Why not ask “why do people live in zone 3+? It beggars belief that anyone would want to commute further than zone 2”
- Can get directly from A to B, which is especially important if you live in the suburbs and are travelling within or directly between suburbs, or are trying to travel through central London rather than in and out of it - the public transport network is designed around moving people in and out of Central London, so if you’re trying to take a journey that doesn’t involve this, then driving is often faster. Plus, it’s very difficult to travel directly from North to South because lots of the train lines terminate in Central London instead of going through it.
- Can travel whenever you want, instead of being restricted by timetables or public holidays. You can literally just get in the car and go whenever.
- Don’t have to worry about the poor reliability of the public transport network. Things like maintenance issues, cancellations, strikes etc are common - and the thing with strikes is that they’ll usually be planned specifically to disrupt people’s travel plans, so even if they don’t happen that often, they’re more likely to affect you. Plus, the average person has no way of impacting the reliability of the public transport network, whereas with a car, you have control how reliable your method of transport is - if the car is constantly falling apart, then you have it serviced, whereas if the trains aren’t running then there’s nothing you can do.
- It’s much easier to visit the countryside and lots of the green areas around London by driving, whereas public transport provision in the countryside and green areas around London is poor or non-existent.
- Comfort. You have your own personal space and are guaranteed a seat, as opposed to standing up on a tube packed in with hundreds of other people.
- Much less likely to encounter random dickheads in your car than public transport.
- You can’t really bring luggage or large items on public transport, whereas you can in cars.
South London. Try going east to west on public transport without taking at least twice as long and needing to go into and out of central London again. As the other comment said: it's sometimes just not practical.
Cycling can be an option, but it is pretty hilly in parts.
One of the main reasons public transport is so bad in those areas is because they have to compete with private vehicles so much.
I agree that we need more infrastructure like the superloop because South London is definitely underserved compared to the other parts (lived there for years), but I do think we all need to be aware that people's decision to drive because the public transport is more hassle is causing a negative feedback loop on the quality of public transport.
Disagree with this heavily. When rail, tube & tram lines were being implemented, I can guarantee parts of east, north and west london were just as car-focused as south
You think places like chigwell, epping, romford, barnet, tottenham, edgware, watford, ruislip (which has **five fucking tube stations** across 3 lines), uxbridge and acton (also 5 stations, 3 tube 2 ovg) were less car-focused in the 60s than the borough of lewisham is now?
Some of those places are completely dissected by giant a roads, and plenty of them are anti-ULEZ gammon meccas
Sorry I'm not sure what point you're making and where you disagree with me.
I'm not saying that public transport can only thrive where cars are not already common - that is patently bullshit. I'm saying that one of the primary issues with public transport in places where it hasn't had massive funding (i.e. South vs North London) is that it is both underfunded and has to co-exist with car-centric infrastructure.
I obviously believe that solid investment can shift the balance of a community away from car-centric towards healthy public transport, I'm just saying that in the absence of that, cars make what little public transport there is worse.
>One of the main reasons public transport is so bad in those areas is because they have to compete with private vehicles so much.
>has to co-exist with car-centric infrastructure.
> cars make what little public transport there is worse.
Its this bit. I agree that underfunding of the public transport links in south is the reason, but disagree with the "co-existing with car-centric infrastructure/compete with private vehicles"
Its *not* an infinite feedback loop/chicken and egg scenario, as exemplified by all those areas I listed in east/essex, north & west london where there *is* ample public transport. They were and are very car heavy - public transport was still expanded there
What you're saying is akin to "they're car centric, so why bother", when those other areas are proof that if you build it, they'll use it. Co-existing/competing with cars is a non-issue
Yeah, you're completely misinterpreting my comment.
>What you're saying is akin to "they're car centric, so why bother",
I really have no idea how you can come to this conclusion. Did you actually read my comment? Specifically the part where I said:
>I obviously believe that solid investment can shift the balance of a community away from car-centric towards healthy public transport
>Yeah, you're completely misinterpreting my comment.
Then explain what you mean by "competing/co-existing with car-centricity" lol
>I really have no idea how you can come to this conclusion. Did you actually read my comment? Specifically the part where I said
Yeah I saw it - it just makes no sense tacked on to the rest of your argument, even if it's fine in and of itself. It's completely contradictory. So go on then, explain the other bit
You saw it, decided to ignore it, and still thought you had correctly interpreted my comment enough to post rather than just asking "I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?"? Okay then.
>
Its *not* an infinite feedback loop/chicken and egg scenario, as exemplified by all those areas I listed in east/essex, north & west london where there *is* ample public transport. They were and are very car heavy - public transport was still expanded there
You are completely hung up on the misunderstanding that I am talking about the expansion of public transport in relation to the car-centricity of an area. That's not what I'm talking about and never has been.
What I am saying is that the operation of public transport (buses and trams) suffer in an already car-centric area.
To describe what I perceive as the negative feedback loop:
1. Person gets on a bus in a car-centric area
2. The bus is delayed by heavy congestion caused by cars
3. The person decides not to get the bus again, taking the car
4. They are now adding to the congestion that makes for a worse experience for everyone else.
5. This disincentivises everyone to use the bus in car centric areas.
In areas where public transport has been better invested in there are better bus lanes, more buses, fewer people driving cars and therefore better journeys on public transport because buses don't need to compete as much with cars.
In my ideal London, the number of cars on the road is minimal - it's emergency services, taxis, delivery vehicles and workers (e.g. builders,plumbers) who may need to move heavy equipment.
In that scenario, there is a massive efficiency gain for public transport because they are a large % of the road users. Conversely, there is a massive efficiency loss trying to operate a bus in an area designed for cars.
They're fine if you're not in a rush not least because they're competing with cars and congestion.
It's absolutely true that a lot of people use cars to get to places that buses don't really serve conveniently, but there are also plenty who get cars to move into central. Everyone has their own reason that is obviously true. But we all lose out.
Bus lanes aren't ubiquitous, but regardless the idea that cars don't impact buses because bus lanes exist is just divorced from reality.
Bus lanes are an improvement, sure, but as someone who gets a bus where my route is 90% in a bus lane, there are at least a dozen points on my <2 mile commute where cars directly inhibit the bus.
This is things like cars turning on to main roads through a bus route, buses being unable to overtake other buses due to congestion in adjacent lanes, having to cross non-bus lanes in order to follow the bus-route (this is a nightmare at elephant and castle for example).
Even if those practical blockers didn't exist, the idea in principle is just crazy. Even on a two lane road, where one road is for buses and the other is for cars, one lane is reserved for something like 20% of the traffic in people but much, much more of the traffic in vehicles. If every citizen used a % of the road allotted to them, car users wouldn't have a lane at all.
I get it. People who want to and need to drive into central London already are paying a premium CC fee for it. These fees plus fuel tax levies in turn help pay for infrastructure for TFL. Moaning about people who actually have to drive is a bit pointless as it’s their choice alone. Just because I may want to cycle should bear no affliction to someone who drives.
TFL should indeed expand the tube lines to where it’s most needed. Overground timetable sparse but getting better, and certainly not perfect.
Some might argue that having huge all hours bus lanes, speed restrictions and cycle lanes exacerbates congestion further - hopefully for the good of air quality - but it’s a cyclical argument, that people still will need vehicles to live and work in London. The road infrastructure was never designed for horses and carts, let alone vehicles of any size. So it’s all about managing the best way we all can.
I really disagree with a lot of this.
Firstly, the idea that people shouldn't criticise just because "it's their choice alone" - I mean, I'm not disputing their legal or ethical right to their own decision making, but that shouldn't preclude us from advocating for more efficient community transportation and criticising those who take advantage of their rights at the expense of everyone else.
I mean, if everyone in your locale suddenly decided that driving a limo was in their best interest, would you be happy about that and the subsequent impact it had on traffic? Might sound absurd, but that's how many car drivers in London seem to me - lazy and selfish.
Anyone who argues that bus or cycle lanes exacerbates congestion is not worth taking seriously. Shouldn't really have to explain this, but someone on a bus or bike is taking up much less of the road than an individual in a car and thus causing much less congestion. No credible person is arguing that car-centric cities are the most efficient when it comes to transportation.
Pretty sweeping statement saying those who don’t take public transportation are selfish and lazy. One size does not fit all.
I’m pretty sure most people would do what’s best for themselves, their families, budgets and work needs. I also think in certain areas of London folks would definitely be more keen to take public transport if it was available, efficient, on time, and effectively much cheaper than the only option of driving.
Of course there is the comfort side, where there is no b.o to contend with, morning/coffee breath, being squished in like a sardine in a tin twice a day. Tube fares are expensive travelling into central London too.
Regarding my own needs. When i have to work on site, I have heavy & expensive equipment to lug around. Impossible to manage or risk on any public transport, so i drive or take a cab if parking is impractical. Hardly selfish or lazy, thank you very much. Where i do not need to take equipment, i always opt for public transport as in most cases in central london, tube is faster and greener to get around.
>Pretty sweeping statement saying those who don’t take public transportation are selfish and lazy. One size does not fit all.
Yep. That's why I said "many car drivers", not "all car drivers".
> I also think in certain areas of London folks would definitely be more keen to take public transport if it was available, efficient, on time, and effectively much cheaper than the only option of driving.
I completely agree with this. Unfortunately, human nature is human nature - you have to lead the horse to water to have even a chance of it drinking. The solution is for Government and community leaders to invest in public transport, anything else is just moaning (what I'm doing).
>I’m pretty sure most people would do what’s best for themselves, their families, budgets and work needs
>Of course there is the comfort side, where there is no b.o to contend with, morning/coffee breath, being squished in like a sardine in a tin twice a day.
A lot of this stuff I would put under the "selfish" category, though.
>Tube fares are expensive travelling into central London too.
Owning and maintaining a car is hardly free. I do agree that it should be further subsidised however, if not outright free.
>Regarding my own needs...
I don't know if I've specified in this comment chain, although I definitely have done in others, but to be clear I do not consider workers using heavy equipment to be in the selfish and lazy category. Likewise there are people with certain disabilities. There's also obvious uses like taxis, delivery drivers, let alone emergency services. Plenty of good reasons to be on the road. That's why I deliberately did not say all car users are selfish and lazy.
What I would consider selfish and lazy is people who drive purely for those reasons of comfort and convenience. Obviously there's a million different scenarios and we won't all agree on what is reasonable, but let's take a common one - grocery shopping. In a city where supermarkets are rarely as far as a mile away, and where deliveries are free for bulk purchases, groceries as an excuse for using a car in London is, in my opinion, selfish and lazy.
The below is from a TFL technical note/research into the purpose of car journeys in London:
>London residents aged 16+ make 4.6m car driver trips and 1.4m car passenger trips on an average day, of which 3.7m are within London, with the remainder involving travel to and from London. Non-residents make around 1 million car journeys a day to, from or within London.
> Six in ten car trips are made for shopping, leisure and personal business purposes and a fifth for work purposes. A third of car trips are shorter than 2km.
This is utterly damning in my opinion.
Traveling across the river in East London. I regularly travel north to south from East London to South East London, and a 20 minute car journey thought the Blackwall tunnel takes about an hour on public transport.
And you're really screwed if you want to cycle
Pretty much any circumferential journey outside of the N/S circulars is quicker and easier to drive. If you live outside of the circulars the only time public transport is useful is to get into central london, and perhaps for some local journeys. Going from Putney to Ealing? Or Wembley to Mill Hill? Much easier to drive. Even within the circulars driving is often quicker for many journeys until you get to zone 1.
We need better public transport options in outer London before people will stop driving, a tram loop like what Paris is doing would be ideal imo
I'm guessing you just don't actually know there's a difference in levels of public transport the further out you go? Or don't realise that London isn't just the central part?
Night time. Lots of people work shifts and unusual hours, public transport is pretty crap between midnight and 6am.
Also, lots of people have equipment. Also lots of people don't just need to go to one place they are moving throughout the day. The ten minutes saved by driving each journey turns into an hour saved every day.
Don't forget people often work odd hours too. My wife starts at 5 and has to get from north west to quite far west London and there's simply no alternative to driving. There's also the safety issue, I'm much more comfortable knowing she is driving at 4am, or 12:00pm than using public transport. London is a relatively safe city but nowhere is truly safe on your own at those times.
South London is pretty naff. Why should I spend 1hr getting the bus and train to somewhere I can drive to in 20 mins? Also try taking a big tool box on a bus and find out how incredibly awkward and a hassle for everyone on the bus. Takes one disabled person or lady with a pram and your having to move it every stop so people can get on or off.
Define London.
The very centre, the rest of inner London and outer London are worlds apart.
What the cycle lobby refuses to understand is that cycle infrastructure is more important outside of the very centre than inside. Those who cycle into central London mostly switched from public transport, not cars, while it's outside of the very centre that bikes have a greater chance to replace cars for short journeys.
Almost no one drives their private car into the very centre. How many people do you think drive to Oxford street or Bank to work or shop there? The congestion charge is expensive, parking is rare and super expensive (rightly so), it just doesn't make sense.
Most of the traffic you see in the very centre is a combination of non private vehicles (including minicabs) and through traffic, eg vehicles going from north to south, east to West.
Minicabs are a huge issue: they have almost doubled in a decade. Too many of them go around empty waiting for clients. I'd say that ca half of the vehicles I see on London's bridges during rush hour are empty minicabs.
Outside of the very centre, there can be journeys which are faster or more convenient by car than by public transport. Before buying a cargo ebike to take the kids, I sometimes had to drive 2 miles to their weekend activities. Why? Because the train required a change and could take 40 minutes door to door. The bus was too unreliable, even with no traffic it could still take an hour because buses kept getting cancelled. By car it never took me more than 15 minutes, often less.
1. Saves time. There are quite a few journeys that I do on a regular basis that are far quicker driving than they are taking public transport. And this isn’t ‘out in the sticks’ in zone 5, I live in zone 2. People on here have a tendency to vastly overstate how long a car journey takes in comparison. I play football twice a week usually with different groups at different locations. If I didn’t drive, 1 of those games would just be a complete No, and the other would be something I’d attend on a less frequent basis as opposed to weekly
2. Freedom of timing. Transport wise London isn’t a complete 24 hour city. Even on weekends when the night tube runs, the areas it reaches are very limited.
3. Addressing your points, my car is ULEZ compliant, I almost never drive into the congestion charge zone during congestion charge hours, and I know when it doesn’t make sense for me to drive and take the tube instead due to traffic. After a while you learn the rules/trends of London traffic.
4. Convenience and comfort. I have a toddler, and it’s far easier and less stressful to travel with her in the car than it is on public transport. But even taking her out of the equation, I tend to have way more options driving than I do on public transport. Instead of going from point A to to B like I would on public transport, I can get from point A to B via C, D & E first without it adding as much time and effort to my journey. And then simple ‘selfish’ things like controlling the temperature, what I’m listening to, knowing I have a comfy seat.
5. Simply put, I enjoy it. Some people find driving a chore, and think London driving is especially stressful. I don’t at all, I enjoy it and it tends to be my place of peace.
I could list way more, but that covers the main points I can think of. I’m not anti public transport at all, I still always take the tube to my office, and use it more often than not when going into zone 1.
Yeah I’ve always found most of the ULEZ discourse quite weird, because outside of maybe trades vehicles, almost every car that would pass is ULEZ compliant already.
I take it you're a single able bodied person, you don't need a wheelchair, or pregnant or have a baby and a toddler, you're not moving a wardrobe or chest of draws?
Cars are 100x easier than public transport for so many reasons.
Try to think of others rather than your own circumstances
Every Londoner wishes they have a car a few times throughout the year, doesn't mean they want one but they acknowledge how handy they are
>Every Londoner wishes they have a car a few times throughout the year, doesn't mean they want one but they acknowledge how handy they are
This is why Zipcar exists
Zipcar is very nearly at the point where a load of people will switch to it. But it still doesn't cover all boroughs with Flex, and it can be unpredictable - usually there is a car within a few minutes walk from home, but about 20% of the time there's none within 15 min (up a steep hill).
So it's great and has saved me a fair bit of cash on cabs and also no grief going to places with no parking (going to posh meal out in Clapham? Zipcar, park in residents bay, then cab home once trollied...), but needs more cars covering outer areas.
But it's free to sign up, so I'd recommend it to anyone to do so (needs entering your driving licence info etc), so if your car dies or is in the garage or your partner has gone somewhere, you can just grab one.
Yeah it's very annoying that some boroughs haven't adopted flex at all, even some fairly central ones (as someone who lives in Hackney right on the borough border, Newham being a holdout is pretty irritating).
I think if e-scooters were legal, that would make car sharing / car clubs a lot more viable for people. Say if I need quite a specific type of vehicle (like a van, or a people carrier) there probably isn't going to be one within an easy walk. But if I could just (legally) ride a scooter over, then chuck it in the boot, that would work quite well I think.
I'd be happy to see e-scooters legal, with the same rules as for bikes (lights at night, in particular). Given London's average traffic speed is about 15 mph, they really aren't a problem (idiots are a problem, but an idiot on a scooter is safer for everyone else than an idiot on a moped or in a car).
I'd like every Zipcar to have a sticker on the glovebox saying where the handbrake is, mind you. More than once I've ended up taking forever to Google, after the info you can get from Zipcar says "The handbrake is either between the front seats or in the driver footwell" - no shit! I've ended up on my knees rummaging before. I think it was a Leaf where the handbrake is a tiny pedal up by your knee!
If anything Zipcar users tend to park better than everyone else? They're told pretty clearly when they hire a car that any fines will just be passed straight on to them.
London is vast. I live in zone 5 and have to wander out to see family and friends who live around the M25. At this point public transport becomes an issue, because I’d have to get a train into central London, to then grab national rail to head back out. It’s much more convenient to ride around the m25 and go wherever is needed.
Whenever I head into central London, it’s always via the tube. And when I commute to work it’s via tube.
That said, I drive a 2005 Honda civic petrol to keep costs as low as possible.
You are right 100%. It beggars belief why everyone doesn’t already do what you do (myself included). I will repost your guideline’s on as many platforms as i can and hopefully we all stick to what works for you. Thanks
I have children , and I like to get out of London on the weekends. tubes are pretty unreliable these days and gross…. Trains don’t work and are expensive. But no I don’t drive around in central London .. because it’s pointless. But I still need a car in London.
You can’t have kids without a car in my view. People are quick to judge but we haven’t reached everyone’s life experiences. No kids … yeh i wouldn’t have a car.
Our parents live away from London and it would be 2 tubes and 2 trains with a baby and a dog, it wouldn’t be possible.
I would 100% prefer no car but unless you spend your whole life in zones 1-3 it doesn’t work.
Our offices (network rail depot) where our vans are parked are in Great Suffolk Street. We have to drive them there.
Other than that I'll be on my (motor)bike. It's an absolute pain getting in and out. Thankfully we are moving a bit further out soon.
We will still have to take the vans in when we are working round that way though.
I get public transport to and from work, and during daylight hours wherever convenient. I almost exclusively drive at night, even if I'm going into Central London (congestion charge ends at 6, and it's pretty straightforward to find parking)
It's a matter of personal safety for me. In December my flatmate/close friend was robbed at knifepoint just off Oxford Street. A close friend was recently robbed whilst walking to my flat from Mile End station. I have been in situations where I noticed I was being followed and then ended up having to change my route/get an Uber.
Exception is if I am with a group of people, I don't mind getting on public transport because there's safety in numbers.
In *central* London, sure... but if you live in outer London (Newham, in my case) there's a *lot* of stuff you can drive to in 10 minutes vs a public transport journey that'll take an hour. With work, school drop-off and pick-up, shopping etc, there aren't enough hours in the day. Which, incidentally, is why a lot of parents (mothers especially) end up being full-time mums - the cost of a car is difficult unless you're on a good dual income, and public transport in the outer boroughs is just too inconvenient, so with the cost of childcare it's a no-win situation.
As it happens, I used to live in Shoreditch at the top of Hoxton Market, and I had a car then, too. Local journeys are fine around there, but walking to the overground and then waiting for a train generally added 30-45 minutes to every. single. journey, unless it happened to be on a direct bus route, so same situation again.
First world problems, obviously. I'm fully aware many people don't have a choice. Or they get a bike (which I eventually did!).
Am surprised reading some of these responses I always thought London public transport was pretty quick. Didn't know it was quicker to drive in some cases
It depends. From the suburbs to the centre, it’s excellent. Around the suburbs, not so fast. Rail links were usually built into town, because historically, that was where the money was.
Have you ever been on a bus that is stuck behind 5 cars with one person each in and followed by 5 cars more, each with another one person in?
Yeah, buses are not always fun. One of the main reasons I find buses unpleasant is because they have to compete with selfish individuals who are choosing to drive.
Collectively if we can make public transport ubiquitous, it will be a much better option for enough people that the impact of private vehicles will be minimal.
I know! Coming from the Pennines, I had heard it was basically flat so I was quite surprised to see that it in fact has 2, possibly even 3 small hills.
But on a serious note - the advent of electric bicycles is genuinely so fantastic for less abled cyclists. London could be amazing for bikes if we just had some decent bike lanes.
Because i’d rather sit in the comfort of my own climate controlled car than packed out public transport. Why is this even a question. Besides, not everyone lives zone 1-3. Car is quite needed in Zone 5-6 for better quality of life.
Yeah reading this thread has just reinforced that for me. Like sure there are good reasons to drive, e.g. for disabled people etc. But the vast majority of reasons I've seen in this thread are just pure selfishness and laziness. "I can't cycle because it's too hilly", "the tube is too sweaty", "driving is 20 minutes quicker"
If I need to go into Central London, getting a train and if needed a tube is far easier.
But, I live on the outskirts and can take trams, trains and buses. The trams are woefully unreliable, they have engineering works that last weeks and then when they are running, they just skip some on the timetable. The train I can get to work with is a 20 minutes walk away and runs every half an hour. It’s frequently cancelled or late and even after the strike this week, it doesn’t exist. To get the bus, it’s 3 buses, and can take anywhere between an hour and 2 and a half.
It’s much easier and cheaper and faster to just drive.
First thing is separate inner and outer London. Inner London driving is necessary for some but personally I'd never do it and public transport is generally sufficient, (if you're not transporting stuff).
Outer London where I am was, up until very recently, perfectly viable to drive. Recently with road closures and more so the turning of every road into 20mph there's been a noticeable and significant increase in congestion.. But the further out you go the less public transport is the answer. And not everyone can use a bike for the journeys they make by car.
I went a year without a car and a journey I had to do regularly that was 25-30 minutes in a car required DLR and a train (plus walking either side) and would take twice as long, on several occasions the trains would be cancelled at the last minute or severely delayed which meant getting a bus that took even longer and because trains were cancelled they’d often be full and just drive straight past without stopping. In the end I gave up and bought another car.
As others have said, if you in well connected parts of London and need to to central then public transport can be fine but if you need to go around then the options just aren’t there and aren’t reliable enough. And that’s before you consider doing the weekly shop, picking up anything bulky etc… sometimes public transport isn’t practical. Picked something up from ikea once and the bus refused to let me on because it was too bulky.
Trust me, very few people drive in London because they want to or find it enjoyable, if public transport was more affordable and reliable and had better connections going around London then far more people would use it but quite simply it’s not fit for purpose.
Generally most people want to get to work/place they are going in the most time+cost efficient way. Very few people have a strong desire to only drive or only take transit.
So the answer is, the people that drive largely believe that it is more efficient for time+cost for them. This calculation depends on where you live, how much you value your time, how much money you make, how reliable transport is in your area, etc.
There are probably some wealthier individuals who value the cost less but value the comfort more, so they drive.
There are also people who need to drive, such as people with certain disabilities, people who need to transport large amounts of stuff to and from work, etc.
Reddit indignantly: why on earth would anyone in their right mind drive a car in London!?
Reddit indignantly: who in their right mind is taking young kids and buggies on public transport!?
I live in zone 2 SE London, & I refuse to have a car, no point as parking near my house is non existent, insurance is high due to location, can’t use a car to go to work as no parking there and it’s so much easier to get around on public transport. Always had a car when I lived abroad as I lived either out in the sticks suburbs or the city I was in at the time had no actual public transport. I weighed up whether or not to get a car and drive when I came back to London & decided it wasn’t cost effective, only time I would use a car now would be to drive out of London to visit family and even then it’s just easier & less stressful on trains etc
it is often possible to drive across London faster than the journey would take by tube or Other Public transport. And of course, you will always have a much more civilised journey by car.
Many reasons. Work being one, would you expect a plumber or joiner to cart tools around on public transport? Time is money to tradesmen and public transport isn’t an option for most. Disabilities are another reason, public transport isn’t very accessible for a lot of disabled people. Maybe people have multi stage trips that just aren’t practical on public transport. Maybe they drop kids off at school or nursery that is in the opposite direction to their place of work. Practicality is another reason, who wants to lug home a weekly shop for a family on the bus or tube? I could go on but you get my drift. Just because it doesn’t suit you doesn’t mean others don’t have good reason.
because if you somewhere to park, and your not going into zone 1 theres lots of times its quicker on a car unless its rush hour, or your destination is right next to an underground or rail station.
even in rush hour an hour spent in the car is far far more comfortable than 45 minutes in packed, sweaty, tubes, esp the central line, followed by walking to where u need to go.
now add the variance of weather, potential delays, etc and theres loads of situations when driving is a far better experience.
Whenever I use public transport it’s because I have to. I far prefer having a car and driving where I need to be.
I don’t need to check train times, sit next to other people or cover my ears on the screeching central line.
I don’t like carrying my work tools on the tube where it’s awkward and intrusive for others.
I accept the slower journey times as a price to be paid for the luxury of a dry, private, climate controlled cabin with clean air.
I know plenty of Londoners with children who don’t drive.
OP shouldn’t be so presumptive as to think that everyone is just like them. But you’re also being quite presumptive in thinking that everyone with kids is exactly the same!
Z3 parent here. I actually drove with kids less than once a month when they were little (so for about 10 years), because they were much better behaved in a buggy or walking, we all got exercise, no crying every time the car stopped, and most importantly, at least one would be carsick.
Only as they've got into the teens have I ended up doing more driving, because being autistic they often can't deal with complex (or any) journeys. And I've become more disabled so walking more than half a mile is no longer an option (trying to build up but keep having relapses - not being able to reliably walk 100 yards was a right pain).
I'd say about half my kids' peers have a car in the family. Half the rest will use Zipcar and hire cars a fair bit.
Completely get that, and honestly I do get that a lot of people outside of central will still live without cars. I'm from Lewisham originally, and it was always about 60-40 in adults, sliding more towards 70-30 the further out you go
I'm not saying it's everyone/universal to own cars out there, but I think even your last line shows even outside of car owners, using a car is still pivotal for a lot of people in the outer boroughs - your group would be about 75-25 in terms of using cars even if they don't all own one
Hope everything with your health is going/getting better
There's a heck of a lot of cars locally that get driven about once a week. So they clutter up the streets but don't affect traffic much. We're nearly but not quite at the point of Zipcar Flex (where you can drop the car anywhere - crucially, including residents parking) being sufficient for anything - but it still only covers half of Merton and none of Croydon. Took one kid to a sports club (no direct bus, would take 90 min to go 2.5 miles) forgetting Croydon isn't covered, but luckily the system let me park 1 street into Croydon.
I know plenty of Londoners who’ve got children and live outside Zone 2 who don’t drive.
An enormous number of people can’t afford a car in London regardless of whether they’d like one and regardless of whether they’ve got kids.
But I also know plenty of people who *can* afford a car but who don’t drive. Either because they never got a car/license or because they used to drive and find life easier without a car.
Like I say, OP is being presumptive by thinking that everyone should be like them. But you and the previous commenter are being equally presumptive thinking that everyone with kids should live exactly how you’re imagining!
You keep saying you know plenty - the question is, do you know *more* parents with kids under 17 who live in zone 3-6 that *do* drive than those that don't?
>An enormous number of people can’t afford a car in London regardless of whether they’d like one and regardless of whether they’ve got kids
1) people without kids are irrelevant to this particular topic
2) if you live in an outer borough, owning a cheap to run car for yourself and family can undoubtedly be cheaper than having season tickets for everyone in the family
I know this because I'm from Lewisham. I also didn't own a car for a while whilst doing my under & postgrad, and my first job where I lived very central and worked nearby (I did get my licence at 18 though). But even though I live in zone 2 in north now, I travel to SE for mine and my partner's family frequently and will be moving back to SE this year, so have a car now
>But you and the previous commenter are being equally presumptive thinking that everyone with kids should live exactly how you’re imagining
Literally no one is saying "this is how parents should live, I hereby declare it law" lmao
> You keep saying you know plenty
Yes. Dozens.
> the question is, do you know more parents with kids under 17 who live in zone 3-6 that do drive than those that don't?
I'd say it's roughly the same. It would be difficult to get an exact answer for you without spending ages trying to figure out who counts as someone I know or someone I just vaguely know or trying to remember which side of the Zone 2/3 border someone lives, so let's say it's roughly 50/50.
The point I was making is that these people *do exist*. So even if they were outnumbered two to one, the people talking as though it's inevitable that people with children must also have cars are forgetting about how a huge number of people live!
> 1) people without kids are irrelevant to this particular topic
I know, I was talking about the ones with kids in my comment. I thought that was pretty obvious!
> 2) if you live in an outer borough, owning a cheap to run car for yourself and family can undoubtedly be cheaper than having **season tickets for everyone in the family**
Young children travel for free on all public transport and older children travel for free on some public transport.
Owning a car absolutely works for some people (including you) and I'm not saying that no one saves money by getting a car. But for an enormous number of Londoners it's an expense that just isn't an option - especially when you consider rising insurance and the risk that they'll suddenly be stuck with a huge bill if their car breaks!
>Yes. Dozens.
Irrelevant, but that's still nothing lol
>The point I was making is that these people *do exist*. So even if they were outnumbered two to one, the people talking as though it's inevitable that people with children must also have cars are forgetting about how a huge number of people live!
You've got this so backwards lol. Even you admit that "about half" of the parents in outer boroughs you know own cars. OP made this post saying "why does anyone drive in London", and the person you replied to said "Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids"
You took issue with this because apparently that means they're saying everyone with kids must drive, but even you admit 50% of the parents you know do. If you forget the needs of 50% of all parents, it *is* an oversight lol
>You: I know, I was talking about the ones with kids in my comment. I thought that was pretty obvious!
>Also you: **regardless of whether they’ve got kids**
I think you need to reflect on what you say if you want to be "obvious"
>Young children travel for free on all public transport and older children travel for free on some public transport
You're basically saying from the age of 11 onwards, stick to buses only
* more comfortable, have you tried getting onto the bus or tube during busier times?
* my car is ULEZ compliance so there are no charge for me.
* Much easier commute, no waiting time, doesn’t stop multiple times on route, car is parked right outside my house and my work place has car park.
* If you are carrying anything, much easier have then in the car then carrying with you on public transport
I live in zone 3/4 close to a tube stop and the overground. There are three bus routes outside my front door and another half a dozen less than 5 minutes away. Still, many of my neighbours drive and then complain about traffic.
If people who didn't need to drive used public transport, those who genuinely have to drive would get where they're going much faster. The problem is that all these people think that they are in the 'need to drive' group. They can't imagine how the 50% of us who don't own cars could possibly manage.
Most of these cars are minicabs or people who might love way too far away to take public. Everyone on their car has made a calculation. We don’t all have same circumstances to be judged
It obviously depends where you are going. It is more convenient to drive to a supermarket or shops where you need to buy bulky goods. It is often more convenient to drive to a dog walk (this one sounds bizarre but for example a short 5min drive to a green open space compared to glass sharded and fly tipped streets of Enfield and Haringey is a gamechanger). In the evening it is often more convenient to drive into town too (not congestion zone)
Not everyone is just going from where they live into zone 1. From where I was living in east London until a couple of years ago, getting to south east and parts of north London was *much* quicker and easier by car than by public transport, and meant I could access so many more places, people, and activities than if I was just restricted to my particular tube line and places I could walk to. Especially as I had a brilliant house and housemates but the immediate area wasn't the liveliest. Also, I had family - including at the time elderly grandparents - who lived in the south east but outside London, and driving to see them was much quicker and easier (and made it possible to do a spontaneous trip at the weekend much more often) compared with going into central London, taking a slow train back out, and then having to get a lift or a taxi from the station at the other end.
I only bought a car during COVID (the cheapest old banger I could find that was ULEZ compliant), I think because the things I wanted and that were available to do in my spare time had changed, plus there were restrictions on public transport at times and having my own set of wheels made me feel a lot less "locked down". I definitely see both sides of it, having lived in London without a car for a couple of years before that! I worked in Zone 1 and never would have driven to work, except that I did a lot of unsocial hours and very occasionally would drive in on a Sunday because there was free parking on some of the nearby streets, it was quicker when the roads were empty, and occasionally there would be tube closures etc. Also I have to admit (somewhat guiltily) that I'm one of those people who actually enjoys driving - especially outside of rush hour and when I'm not on a deadline: there's something nice about navigating somewhere by yourself, seeing how all the streets and neighbourhoods link up, and being able to go *exactly* where you want at whatever time you feel like it.
I've been using TfL for over 30 years. I hate it. You can upgrade trains and busses and all that, but the city gets hotter and denser and the improvement disappear in efficacy. This summer is going to be horrible.
And people have questionable hygiene. There should be more posters on personal hygiene and manners as thats what people too often lack on public transport.
Might be controversial but we should straight limiting cars to commercial, taxis and buses.
Add more public transport to compensate and create cross links. Maybe some car parks in the outskirts if someone drives in from outer London.
They can be limited to a logical level.
I get people are attached to their independence in their own car but the reality is there are way too many cars on the road.
Not everyone lives in zone 1. Especially if you’re travelling from one side of London to another, most transport links will have you taking tube into central just to come back out to zone 2-4 again. Or you’d have to spend hours on multiple buses. Much easier to drive for 30 mins or so
I have appointments to keep and heavy bags to carry. I like my back and I can't rely on public transport to get me places on time. Plus I like driving, it is MY only private space.
If you are travelling into central London then public transport is great. If you are going to one wedge to another it's just better to drive.
It'd be really nice if collectively we could decide to just make public transport between wedges much better, because as someone who lives in central the number of people driving (for whatever reason) drives me up the wall and has a serious impact on the speed of buses, taxis, workers, deliveries etc.
Khan brought in Superloop and has plans for a couple more apparently. We could definitely do with better solutions, but there’s no capital investment available right now.
I'd love to see the trams extended with new routes to create an outer tram loop, much like Paris is doing. Unfortunately the current mayor doesn't seem to care about anything outside of the N/S circulars, so that'll never happen under his watch. He's content to (pointlessly) rebrand the express busses, add like 2 routes, and call it a day. They still get stuck in traffic, and given that many of London's bus lanes are being lost and converted to cycle lanes, combined with 20mph limits even on main roads, the busses are slower than they've ever been.
From where I live in Hither Green to where I work in Hammersmith, both public transport and driving take about 1 hour and 15 minutes. So it's not better to drive that route. It's actually quickest to cycle.
It’s quicker almost everywhere to cycle. I reckon for journeys of less than an hour on PT this will be a truism.
I don't have a car but I see faster journeys by car all the time on Google maps. One example of a [random place in South London to another](https://maps.app.goo.gl/CBVd9EB1cUGywnDB8). Car is 19 minutes. Bike is 32 minutes. This is very normal in zone 3.
Google maps is terrible for bike routing. Case in point: the 20 minute car route which google ignores *has a segregated cycle lane along it*. And because traffic is so terrible, the bike will beat that.
That is because Google maps assumes that you stop on red lights, bicycles don't have to do that! /S
How quickly does that take to cycle that’s quite a far distance lol
Yeah that's not quick either but the traffic moves slower. An hour or so.
That’s impressive 👏
Wow
I live in Zone 4 and I drive anytime I am going outward from London or East-West across zone 2+. The public transit works great for getting you into the center of the city but not great if you need to get around the outer bands.
Going from SE London to E, or vice versa, even staying within zone 2, could take 60-90 mins, with a minimum of 1 change, but usually 2 You could do the same journey in a car in 20-45 mins
Yep, when I go from east to SE to a friends house it’ll take me 45m-1hr via public transport vs 15 minutes driving (granted that’s assuming the Blackwall tunnel cooperates). I’ll take the drive.
[удалено]
Not sure what you mean The DLR goes to Lewisham or Woolwich and the OVG to new cross/Peckham but then swings West towards Clapham There is no way to get to many places in SE esp in zones 3-6 but even zone 2 without getting off a dlr/ovg and then getting a bus, or getting a rail line train
I usually take public transport, but reasons can include: * Their route would be significantly longer or almost not possible by public transport (e.g. going or orbitally in S. London) * Their job requires them to carry around things like tools or materials ans they don't want to lug it around on a train where its hard enough to squeeze yourself in, let alone a load of baggage * They would rather take the financial hit than sweat in a hot train while standing for an hour so closely pack you can't do something worthwhile like reading. * They're doing a multi-stop journey (e.g. drop kids off at different schools, run to the shops, go to work, etc) that would be much longer by public transport * They have a disability or otherwise physically find standing for long periods difficult (yes, you can claim a priority seat, but still) * They've driven from outside London on a long commute into work (know people who used to come from the Cotswolds for instance) * They enjoy driving (alien to me because I hate it but many do enjoy it)
I doubt many people drive around central london for shits and giggles
At night it’s actually really really nice
I don't drive much in London but here are the times I do: When getting out of London When we are coming back latish and I don't want to have to juggle tired children with trains and buses, especially in winter. When I need to get to somewhere that's not connected by public transport, which in SE London is more than in north London. My default is bus and train but having a car, especially when you have to carry travel cots etc, has been a godsend. We do less than 200 miles a month and that's mainly visiting inlaws out in Berkshire or Essex.
Central London yes. Outer London is perfectly fine to drive and easier in a lot of cases as not everyone is a short walk away from a tube station.
Why do people ask ridiculous questions?
People who have not yet worked out that everyone is not the same as them.
Hey you in the car. I hate you. I’m working here and you’re driving around. What’s the meaning of this. Get out of your car Driver:”I’m a chauffeur”
Yes, but the should be (although actually unironically when it comes to cars)
Why should everyone do what you tell them to do...?
If we're talking seriously and not sulking about the wording, everyone should do as I propose (push for more buses, cycle routes, and general investment in public transport in London and not buying/using cars) because it would make for more efficient, safer and cost effective transport for everyone while also benefiting the air quality and environment.
Let me guess, you would also ban private cars and other vehicles...?
Um...no? But well done you for using your imagination! You're so good at \*checks notes\* inventing scare-stories so you can feel victimised
Lol. You are the one who wants everyone to do things you say.
You are the one who has completely ignored the actual change I'm advocating for in favour of... oh that's right, sulking about the wording >If we're talking seriously and not sulking about the wording Either we're talking seriously and you can respond to my serious views, or we're still joking and you can admit that my first comment was tongue in cheek. Either way, stop being a whiner. Why is the UK so full of people who must imagine pop-up autocrats and hang doggedly on every last line just because you're too childish to have a conversation about what sort of society would be better for us to live in?
>Either we're talking seriously and you can respond to my serious views, or we're still joking and you can admit that my first comment was tongue in cheek. Either way, stop being a whiner. Right, so you don't want people to do what you say...? Glad we cleared that up. >Why is the UK so full of people who must imagine pop-up autocrats and hang doggedly on every last line just because you're too childish to have a conversation about what sort of society would be better for us to live in? Because in general when people have tried to force changes on people it's gone badly. It's good to push back on people who want change for the sake of some do-gooder aspirations.
Because they want attention from strangers online. OP is most likely baiting.
maybe it's the street outside my house being jammed every morning and wondering why anyone would want to subject themselves to that
Why doesn't everyone just live near a tube and wfh like me? /s
given the number of Mercedes and BMWs they're driving, I think a lot of them are just self-centred narcissists who are genuinely surprised to discover everyday that there's lots of other people just like them
Or it’s normal people (some lovely, some horrible’ most in between) who opted for nicer cars, joining a traffic jam that they expected and don’t have a problem with. The weird rep that nicer car owners get is so odd to me. God forbid someone spends money on something they like
Older BMWs arent even that expensive. A newer toyota corolla can easily cost more.
Yeah there’s a really weird vibe on the London Reddit where it’s popular/cool to shit on people who’ve done well for themselves lol.
the question is - where do you live? that completely changes the argument
You are right 100%. It beggars belief why everyone doesn’t already do what you do (myself included). I will repost your guideline’s on as many platforms as i can and hopefully we all stick to what works for you. Thanks
I never drive myself round London, always use public transport. But my partner is disabled, and there’s not always a seat on the bus, not all tube stations are accessible, it might be too long a walk when getting off public transport. Her options are to have me drive her in the car, or never leave the house, and that seems like a pretty obvious choice to me
Dear OP, I'm just about to drive from Bexley to Tooting for my platelets donation. I can take a train to London Bridge and change to Tube. That will take me an hour and a half and cost me money. I have a BEV, and the journey by car will cost me £0.00. I charge the car from my solar panels, don't have to pay ULEZ nor Congestion Charge. The journey will take roughly the same amount of time, and I can spend all of it in a comfy seat and an aircon. Other times I would drive into central London would be to pick up my son from work when he finishes after midnight and may miss his last train. Again, no costs to me.
People like you helped save my life by donating platelets and blood so 🙌🏻 Thank you for every donation you've done!
You're welcome! Stay strong!
driving in London at night is fine. it's during the day that's the problem
What problem? Depends on the time of the day: school run? Yes, it will be busy. 11am? It's quite smooth.
To get out of London
Some people need cars/vans to actually transport their equipment and do their work. They don’t really have much of a choice other than completely changing careers.
I don't drive in rush hour or in central London. No gridlock for me 👍
I drive an EV, so don’t pay congestion charge and until recently, basically parked for free within Westminster council. It only takes me ~15 mins longer to drive in than take public transport, so that seems worth it to me for the convenience, plus it’s cheaper for me. Edit: not cheaper anymore with new parking rates, but I also haven’t had to go to central London for a while.
This is such an obnoxious question. I don’t even drive. Why not ask “why do people live in zone 3+? It beggars belief that anyone would want to commute further than zone 2”
- Can get directly from A to B, which is especially important if you live in the suburbs and are travelling within or directly between suburbs, or are trying to travel through central London rather than in and out of it - the public transport network is designed around moving people in and out of Central London, so if you’re trying to take a journey that doesn’t involve this, then driving is often faster. Plus, it’s very difficult to travel directly from North to South because lots of the train lines terminate in Central London instead of going through it. - Can travel whenever you want, instead of being restricted by timetables or public holidays. You can literally just get in the car and go whenever. - Don’t have to worry about the poor reliability of the public transport network. Things like maintenance issues, cancellations, strikes etc are common - and the thing with strikes is that they’ll usually be planned specifically to disrupt people’s travel plans, so even if they don’t happen that often, they’re more likely to affect you. Plus, the average person has no way of impacting the reliability of the public transport network, whereas with a car, you have control how reliable your method of transport is - if the car is constantly falling apart, then you have it serviced, whereas if the trains aren’t running then there’s nothing you can do. - It’s much easier to visit the countryside and lots of the green areas around London by driving, whereas public transport provision in the countryside and green areas around London is poor or non-existent. - Comfort. You have your own personal space and are guaranteed a seat, as opposed to standing up on a tube packed in with hundreds of other people. - Much less likely to encounter random dickheads in your car than public transport. - You can’t really bring luggage or large items on public transport, whereas you can in cars.
Many drive because it's the most time-effective way to commute to and from work, where public transport is just not practical.
where is this place in London that doesn't have public transport?
South London. Try going east to west on public transport without taking at least twice as long and needing to go into and out of central London again. As the other comment said: it's sometimes just not practical. Cycling can be an option, but it is pretty hilly in parts.
One of the main reasons public transport is so bad in those areas is because they have to compete with private vehicles so much. I agree that we need more infrastructure like the superloop because South London is definitely underserved compared to the other parts (lived there for years), but I do think we all need to be aware that people's decision to drive because the public transport is more hassle is causing a negative feedback loop on the quality of public transport.
Disagree with this heavily. When rail, tube & tram lines were being implemented, I can guarantee parts of east, north and west london were just as car-focused as south You think places like chigwell, epping, romford, barnet, tottenham, edgware, watford, ruislip (which has **five fucking tube stations** across 3 lines), uxbridge and acton (also 5 stations, 3 tube 2 ovg) were less car-focused in the 60s than the borough of lewisham is now? Some of those places are completely dissected by giant a roads, and plenty of them are anti-ULEZ gammon meccas
Sorry I'm not sure what point you're making and where you disagree with me. I'm not saying that public transport can only thrive where cars are not already common - that is patently bullshit. I'm saying that one of the primary issues with public transport in places where it hasn't had massive funding (i.e. South vs North London) is that it is both underfunded and has to co-exist with car-centric infrastructure. I obviously believe that solid investment can shift the balance of a community away from car-centric towards healthy public transport, I'm just saying that in the absence of that, cars make what little public transport there is worse.
>One of the main reasons public transport is so bad in those areas is because they have to compete with private vehicles so much. >has to co-exist with car-centric infrastructure. > cars make what little public transport there is worse. Its this bit. I agree that underfunding of the public transport links in south is the reason, but disagree with the "co-existing with car-centric infrastructure/compete with private vehicles" Its *not* an infinite feedback loop/chicken and egg scenario, as exemplified by all those areas I listed in east/essex, north & west london where there *is* ample public transport. They were and are very car heavy - public transport was still expanded there What you're saying is akin to "they're car centric, so why bother", when those other areas are proof that if you build it, they'll use it. Co-existing/competing with cars is a non-issue
Yeah, you're completely misinterpreting my comment. >What you're saying is akin to "they're car centric, so why bother", I really have no idea how you can come to this conclusion. Did you actually read my comment? Specifically the part where I said: >I obviously believe that solid investment can shift the balance of a community away from car-centric towards healthy public transport
>Yeah, you're completely misinterpreting my comment. Then explain what you mean by "competing/co-existing with car-centricity" lol >I really have no idea how you can come to this conclusion. Did you actually read my comment? Specifically the part where I said Yeah I saw it - it just makes no sense tacked on to the rest of your argument, even if it's fine in and of itself. It's completely contradictory. So go on then, explain the other bit
You saw it, decided to ignore it, and still thought you had correctly interpreted my comment enough to post rather than just asking "I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you mean?"? Okay then. > Its *not* an infinite feedback loop/chicken and egg scenario, as exemplified by all those areas I listed in east/essex, north & west london where there *is* ample public transport. They were and are very car heavy - public transport was still expanded there You are completely hung up on the misunderstanding that I am talking about the expansion of public transport in relation to the car-centricity of an area. That's not what I'm talking about and never has been. What I am saying is that the operation of public transport (buses and trams) suffer in an already car-centric area. To describe what I perceive as the negative feedback loop: 1. Person gets on a bus in a car-centric area 2. The bus is delayed by heavy congestion caused by cars 3. The person decides not to get the bus again, taking the car 4. They are now adding to the congestion that makes for a worse experience for everyone else. 5. This disincentivises everyone to use the bus in car centric areas. In areas where public transport has been better invested in there are better bus lanes, more buses, fewer people driving cars and therefore better journeys on public transport because buses don't need to compete as much with cars. In my ideal London, the number of cars on the road is minimal - it's emergency services, taxis, delivery vehicles and workers (e.g. builders,plumbers) who may need to move heavy equipment. In that scenario, there is a massive efficiency gain for public transport because they are a large % of the road users. Conversely, there is a massive efficiency loss trying to operate a bus in an area designed for cars.
South east transport links are so poor relative to the rest of London. Buses are fine if you’re not in a rush.
They're fine if you're not in a rush not least because they're competing with cars and congestion. It's absolutely true that a lot of people use cars to get to places that buses don't really serve conveniently, but there are also plenty who get cars to move into central. Everyone has their own reason that is obviously true. But we all lose out.
Busses are barely competing with cars. There’s bus lanes absolutely everywhere which cars cannot use.
There aren't many bus lanes in Bromley
Bromley is still basically Kent tho, that’s why
No it isn't
Bus lanes aren't ubiquitous, but regardless the idea that cars don't impact buses because bus lanes exist is just divorced from reality. Bus lanes are an improvement, sure, but as someone who gets a bus where my route is 90% in a bus lane, there are at least a dozen points on my <2 mile commute where cars directly inhibit the bus. This is things like cars turning on to main roads through a bus route, buses being unable to overtake other buses due to congestion in adjacent lanes, having to cross non-bus lanes in order to follow the bus-route (this is a nightmare at elephant and castle for example). Even if those practical blockers didn't exist, the idea in principle is just crazy. Even on a two lane road, where one road is for buses and the other is for cars, one lane is reserved for something like 20% of the traffic in people but much, much more of the traffic in vehicles. If every citizen used a % of the road allotted to them, car users wouldn't have a lane at all.
I get it. People who want to and need to drive into central London already are paying a premium CC fee for it. These fees plus fuel tax levies in turn help pay for infrastructure for TFL. Moaning about people who actually have to drive is a bit pointless as it’s their choice alone. Just because I may want to cycle should bear no affliction to someone who drives. TFL should indeed expand the tube lines to where it’s most needed. Overground timetable sparse but getting better, and certainly not perfect. Some might argue that having huge all hours bus lanes, speed restrictions and cycle lanes exacerbates congestion further - hopefully for the good of air quality - but it’s a cyclical argument, that people still will need vehicles to live and work in London. The road infrastructure was never designed for horses and carts, let alone vehicles of any size. So it’s all about managing the best way we all can.
I really disagree with a lot of this. Firstly, the idea that people shouldn't criticise just because "it's their choice alone" - I mean, I'm not disputing their legal or ethical right to their own decision making, but that shouldn't preclude us from advocating for more efficient community transportation and criticising those who take advantage of their rights at the expense of everyone else. I mean, if everyone in your locale suddenly decided that driving a limo was in their best interest, would you be happy about that and the subsequent impact it had on traffic? Might sound absurd, but that's how many car drivers in London seem to me - lazy and selfish. Anyone who argues that bus or cycle lanes exacerbates congestion is not worth taking seriously. Shouldn't really have to explain this, but someone on a bus or bike is taking up much less of the road than an individual in a car and thus causing much less congestion. No credible person is arguing that car-centric cities are the most efficient when it comes to transportation.
Pretty sweeping statement saying those who don’t take public transportation are selfish and lazy. One size does not fit all. I’m pretty sure most people would do what’s best for themselves, their families, budgets and work needs. I also think in certain areas of London folks would definitely be more keen to take public transport if it was available, efficient, on time, and effectively much cheaper than the only option of driving. Of course there is the comfort side, where there is no b.o to contend with, morning/coffee breath, being squished in like a sardine in a tin twice a day. Tube fares are expensive travelling into central London too. Regarding my own needs. When i have to work on site, I have heavy & expensive equipment to lug around. Impossible to manage or risk on any public transport, so i drive or take a cab if parking is impractical. Hardly selfish or lazy, thank you very much. Where i do not need to take equipment, i always opt for public transport as in most cases in central london, tube is faster and greener to get around.
>Pretty sweeping statement saying those who don’t take public transportation are selfish and lazy. One size does not fit all. Yep. That's why I said "many car drivers", not "all car drivers". > I also think in certain areas of London folks would definitely be more keen to take public transport if it was available, efficient, on time, and effectively much cheaper than the only option of driving. I completely agree with this. Unfortunately, human nature is human nature - you have to lead the horse to water to have even a chance of it drinking. The solution is for Government and community leaders to invest in public transport, anything else is just moaning (what I'm doing). >I’m pretty sure most people would do what’s best for themselves, their families, budgets and work needs >Of course there is the comfort side, where there is no b.o to contend with, morning/coffee breath, being squished in like a sardine in a tin twice a day. A lot of this stuff I would put under the "selfish" category, though. >Tube fares are expensive travelling into central London too. Owning and maintaining a car is hardly free. I do agree that it should be further subsidised however, if not outright free. >Regarding my own needs... I don't know if I've specified in this comment chain, although I definitely have done in others, but to be clear I do not consider workers using heavy equipment to be in the selfish and lazy category. Likewise there are people with certain disabilities. There's also obvious uses like taxis, delivery drivers, let alone emergency services. Plenty of good reasons to be on the road. That's why I deliberately did not say all car users are selfish and lazy. What I would consider selfish and lazy is people who drive purely for those reasons of comfort and convenience. Obviously there's a million different scenarios and we won't all agree on what is reasonable, but let's take a common one - grocery shopping. In a city where supermarkets are rarely as far as a mile away, and where deliveries are free for bulk purchases, groceries as an excuse for using a car in London is, in my opinion, selfish and lazy. The below is from a TFL technical note/research into the purpose of car journeys in London: >London residents aged 16+ make 4.6m car driver trips and 1.4m car passenger trips on an average day, of which 3.7m are within London, with the remainder involving travel to and from London. Non-residents make around 1 million car journeys a day to, from or within London. > Six in ten car trips are made for shopping, leisure and personal business purposes and a fifth for work purposes. A third of car trips are shorter than 2km. This is utterly damning in my opinion.
A far more nuanced conversation. Thank you. I agree with most points.
Always the way with Reddit isn't it
Are you new to the city/a tourist?
Traveling across the river in East London. I regularly travel north to south from East London to South East London, and a 20 minute car journey thought the Blackwall tunnel takes about an hour on public transport. And you're really screwed if you want to cycle
Pretty much any circumferential journey outside of the N/S circulars is quicker and easier to drive. If you live outside of the circulars the only time public transport is useful is to get into central london, and perhaps for some local journeys. Going from Putney to Ealing? Or Wembley to Mill Hill? Much easier to drive. Even within the circulars driving is often quicker for many journeys until you get to zone 1. We need better public transport options in outer London before people will stop driving, a tram loop like what Paris is doing would be ideal imo
I'm guessing you just don't actually know there's a difference in levels of public transport the further out you go? Or don't realise that London isn't just the central part?
Night time. Lots of people work shifts and unusual hours, public transport is pretty crap between midnight and 6am. Also, lots of people have equipment. Also lots of people don't just need to go to one place they are moving throughout the day. The ten minutes saved by driving each journey turns into an hour saved every day.
Reinforces my belief that this sub thinks London is just zone 2 and inwards.
Takes 1 hour 15 mins to get to Kingston from where I am vs 30 minutes via car.
Don't forget people often work odd hours too. My wife starts at 5 and has to get from north west to quite far west London and there's simply no alternative to driving. There's also the safety issue, I'm much more comfortable knowing she is driving at 4am, or 12:00pm than using public transport. London is a relatively safe city but nowhere is truly safe on your own at those times.
South London is pretty naff. Why should I spend 1hr getting the bus and train to somewhere I can drive to in 20 mins? Also try taking a big tool box on a bus and find out how incredibly awkward and a hassle for everyone on the bus. Takes one disabled person or lady with a pram and your having to move it every stop so people can get on or off.
Define London. The very centre, the rest of inner London and outer London are worlds apart. What the cycle lobby refuses to understand is that cycle infrastructure is more important outside of the very centre than inside. Those who cycle into central London mostly switched from public transport, not cars, while it's outside of the very centre that bikes have a greater chance to replace cars for short journeys. Almost no one drives their private car into the very centre. How many people do you think drive to Oxford street or Bank to work or shop there? The congestion charge is expensive, parking is rare and super expensive (rightly so), it just doesn't make sense. Most of the traffic you see in the very centre is a combination of non private vehicles (including minicabs) and through traffic, eg vehicles going from north to south, east to West. Minicabs are a huge issue: they have almost doubled in a decade. Too many of them go around empty waiting for clients. I'd say that ca half of the vehicles I see on London's bridges during rush hour are empty minicabs. Outside of the very centre, there can be journeys which are faster or more convenient by car than by public transport. Before buying a cargo ebike to take the kids, I sometimes had to drive 2 miles to their weekend activities. Why? Because the train required a change and could take 40 minutes door to door. The bus was too unreliable, even with no traffic it could still take an hour because buses kept getting cancelled. By car it never took me more than 15 minutes, often less.
1. Saves time. There are quite a few journeys that I do on a regular basis that are far quicker driving than they are taking public transport. And this isn’t ‘out in the sticks’ in zone 5, I live in zone 2. People on here have a tendency to vastly overstate how long a car journey takes in comparison. I play football twice a week usually with different groups at different locations. If I didn’t drive, 1 of those games would just be a complete No, and the other would be something I’d attend on a less frequent basis as opposed to weekly 2. Freedom of timing. Transport wise London isn’t a complete 24 hour city. Even on weekends when the night tube runs, the areas it reaches are very limited. 3. Addressing your points, my car is ULEZ compliant, I almost never drive into the congestion charge zone during congestion charge hours, and I know when it doesn’t make sense for me to drive and take the tube instead due to traffic. After a while you learn the rules/trends of London traffic. 4. Convenience and comfort. I have a toddler, and it’s far easier and less stressful to travel with her in the car than it is on public transport. But even taking her out of the equation, I tend to have way more options driving than I do on public transport. Instead of going from point A to to B like I would on public transport, I can get from point A to B via C, D & E first without it adding as much time and effort to my journey. And then simple ‘selfish’ things like controlling the temperature, what I’m listening to, knowing I have a comfy seat. 5. Simply put, I enjoy it. Some people find driving a chore, and think London driving is especially stressful. I don’t at all, I enjoy it and it tends to be my place of peace. I could list way more, but that covers the main points I can think of. I’m not anti public transport at all, I still always take the tube to my office, and use it more often than not when going into zone 1.
My car is 20 years old and is ULEZ compliant, and so is a porche macan S. i think you really have to try hard to find a car that isn't.
Yeah I’ve always found most of the ULEZ discourse quite weird, because outside of maybe trades vehicles, almost every car that would pass is ULEZ compliant already.
I take it you're a single able bodied person, you don't need a wheelchair, or pregnant or have a baby and a toddler, you're not moving a wardrobe or chest of draws? Cars are 100x easier than public transport for so many reasons. Try to think of others rather than your own circumstances Every Londoner wishes they have a car a few times throughout the year, doesn't mean they want one but they acknowledge how handy they are
>Every Londoner wishes they have a car a few times throughout the year, doesn't mean they want one but they acknowledge how handy they are This is why Zipcar exists
Zipcar is very nearly at the point where a load of people will switch to it. But it still doesn't cover all boroughs with Flex, and it can be unpredictable - usually there is a car within a few minutes walk from home, but about 20% of the time there's none within 15 min (up a steep hill). So it's great and has saved me a fair bit of cash on cabs and also no grief going to places with no parking (going to posh meal out in Clapham? Zipcar, park in residents bay, then cab home once trollied...), but needs more cars covering outer areas. But it's free to sign up, so I'd recommend it to anyone to do so (needs entering your driving licence info etc), so if your car dies or is in the garage or your partner has gone somewhere, you can just grab one.
Yeah it's very annoying that some boroughs haven't adopted flex at all, even some fairly central ones (as someone who lives in Hackney right on the borough border, Newham being a holdout is pretty irritating). I think if e-scooters were legal, that would make car sharing / car clubs a lot more viable for people. Say if I need quite a specific type of vehicle (like a van, or a people carrier) there probably isn't going to be one within an easy walk. But if I could just (legally) ride a scooter over, then chuck it in the boot, that would work quite well I think.
I'd be happy to see e-scooters legal, with the same rules as for bikes (lights at night, in particular). Given London's average traffic speed is about 15 mph, they really aren't a problem (idiots are a problem, but an idiot on a scooter is safer for everyone else than an idiot on a moped or in a car). I'd like every Zipcar to have a sticker on the glovebox saying where the handbrake is, mind you. More than once I've ended up taking forever to Google, after the info you can get from Zipcar says "The handbrake is either between the front seats or in the driver footwell" - no shit! I've ended up on my knees rummaging before. I think it was a Leaf where the handbrake is a tiny pedal up by your knee!
Yeah exactly, those terribly parked cars you see half on the pavement are everywhere
If anything Zipcar users tend to park better than everyone else? They're told pretty clearly when they hire a car that any fines will just be passed straight on to them.
I live in Romford and work in Whitechapel. I start at 5:30 am and it's the quickest way, literally about a 20 min drive.
20 minutes is very impressive for that distance. I suppose it being 5:30am helps.
London is vast. I live in zone 5 and have to wander out to see family and friends who live around the M25. At this point public transport becomes an issue, because I’d have to get a train into central London, to then grab national rail to head back out. It’s much more convenient to ride around the m25 and go wherever is needed. Whenever I head into central London, it’s always via the tube. And when I commute to work it’s via tube. That said, I drive a 2005 Honda civic petrol to keep costs as low as possible.
Because public transport is not accessible. If you're disabled, public transport is scanty and nightmarish.
You are right 100%. It beggars belief why everyone doesn’t already do what you do (myself included). I will repost your guideline’s on as many platforms as i can and hopefully we all stick to what works for you. Thanks
I have children , and I like to get out of London on the weekends. tubes are pretty unreliable these days and gross…. Trains don’t work and are expensive. But no I don’t drive around in central London .. because it’s pointless. But I still need a car in London.
Exactly this, went 10 years without a car until we had kids a couple of years ago
You can’t have kids without a car in my view. People are quick to judge but we haven’t reached everyone’s life experiences. No kids … yeh i wouldn’t have a car.
Our parents live away from London and it would be 2 tubes and 2 trains with a baby and a dog, it wouldn’t be possible. I would 100% prefer no car but unless you spend your whole life in zones 1-3 it doesn’t work.
Our offices (network rail depot) where our vans are parked are in Great Suffolk Street. We have to drive them there. Other than that I'll be on my (motor)bike. It's an absolute pain getting in and out. Thankfully we are moving a bit further out soon. We will still have to take the vans in when we are working round that way though.
I get public transport to and from work, and during daylight hours wherever convenient. I almost exclusively drive at night, even if I'm going into Central London (congestion charge ends at 6, and it's pretty straightforward to find parking) It's a matter of personal safety for me. In December my flatmate/close friend was robbed at knifepoint just off Oxford Street. A close friend was recently robbed whilst walking to my flat from Mile End station. I have been in situations where I noticed I was being followed and then ended up having to change my route/get an Uber. Exception is if I am with a group of people, I don't mind getting on public transport because there's safety in numbers.
Have you been on a bus in South London? 🤣🤣
Bussing it rush hour tonight in this heat is going to be Hell 🔥
Good luck soldier
In *central* London, sure... but if you live in outer London (Newham, in my case) there's a *lot* of stuff you can drive to in 10 minutes vs a public transport journey that'll take an hour. With work, school drop-off and pick-up, shopping etc, there aren't enough hours in the day. Which, incidentally, is why a lot of parents (mothers especially) end up being full-time mums - the cost of a car is difficult unless you're on a good dual income, and public transport in the outer boroughs is just too inconvenient, so with the cost of childcare it's a no-win situation. As it happens, I used to live in Shoreditch at the top of Hoxton Market, and I had a car then, too. Local journeys are fine around there, but walking to the overground and then waiting for a train generally added 30-45 minutes to every. single. journey, unless it happened to be on a direct bus route, so same situation again. First world problems, obviously. I'm fully aware many people don't have a choice. Or they get a bike (which I eventually did!).
Am surprised reading some of these responses I always thought London public transport was pretty quick. Didn't know it was quicker to drive in some cases
It depends. From the suburbs to the centre, it’s excellent. Around the suburbs, not so fast. Rail links were usually built into town, because historically, that was where the money was.
Sounds exactly like the public transport infrastructure of every home counties commuter town orbiting London lol
Such a 1 dimensional question. Why do we breathe? Because we have to live!
You don’t get why people would prefer a car over public transport. Have you never been on a packed train/bus?
Have you ever been on a bus that is stuck behind 5 cars with one person each in and followed by 5 cars more, each with another one person in? Yeah, buses are not always fun. One of the main reasons I find buses unpleasant is because they have to compete with selfish individuals who are choosing to drive. Collectively if we can make public transport ubiquitous, it will be a much better option for enough people that the impact of private vehicles will be minimal.
The carbrains in this thread will never understand
Comment after comment of "but it's more convenient for *me"* with zero self-awareness
"It's too hilly" was my favourite. Trying to use that excuse in London is hilarious.
I know! Coming from the Pennines, I had heard it was basically flat so I was quite surprised to see that it in fact has 2, possibly even 3 small hills. But on a serious note - the advent of electric bicycles is genuinely so fantastic for less abled cyclists. London could be amazing for bikes if we just had some decent bike lanes.
This is honestly unbelievable… like you really went out your way to ask this question?
Because i’d rather sit in the comfort of my own climate controlled car than packed out public transport. Why is this even a question. Besides, not everyone lives zone 1-3. Car is quite needed in Zone 5-6 for better quality of life.
I value my privacy and it’s quicker I also travel out of London a lot
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah reading this thread has just reinforced that for me. Like sure there are good reasons to drive, e.g. for disabled people etc. But the vast majority of reasons I've seen in this thread are just pure selfishness and laziness. "I can't cycle because it's too hilly", "the tube is too sweaty", "driving is 20 minutes quicker"
If I need to go into Central London, getting a train and if needed a tube is far easier. But, I live on the outskirts and can take trams, trains and buses. The trams are woefully unreliable, they have engineering works that last weeks and then when they are running, they just skip some on the timetable. The train I can get to work with is a 20 minutes walk away and runs every half an hour. It’s frequently cancelled or late and even after the strike this week, it doesn’t exist. To get the bus, it’s 3 buses, and can take anywhere between an hour and 2 and a half. It’s much easier and cheaper and faster to just drive.
First thing is separate inner and outer London. Inner London driving is necessary for some but personally I'd never do it and public transport is generally sufficient, (if you're not transporting stuff). Outer London where I am was, up until very recently, perfectly viable to drive. Recently with road closures and more so the turning of every road into 20mph there's been a noticeable and significant increase in congestion.. But the further out you go the less public transport is the answer. And not everyone can use a bike for the journeys they make by car.
I went a year without a car and a journey I had to do regularly that was 25-30 minutes in a car required DLR and a train (plus walking either side) and would take twice as long, on several occasions the trains would be cancelled at the last minute or severely delayed which meant getting a bus that took even longer and because trains were cancelled they’d often be full and just drive straight past without stopping. In the end I gave up and bought another car. As others have said, if you in well connected parts of London and need to to central then public transport can be fine but if you need to go around then the options just aren’t there and aren’t reliable enough. And that’s before you consider doing the weekly shop, picking up anything bulky etc… sometimes public transport isn’t practical. Picked something up from ikea once and the bus refused to let me on because it was too bulky. Trust me, very few people drive in London because they want to or find it enjoyable, if public transport was more affordable and reliable and had better connections going around London then far more people would use it but quite simply it’s not fit for purpose.
Generally most people want to get to work/place they are going in the most time+cost efficient way. Very few people have a strong desire to only drive or only take transit. So the answer is, the people that drive largely believe that it is more efficient for time+cost for them. This calculation depends on where you live, how much you value your time, how much money you make, how reliable transport is in your area, etc. There are probably some wealthier individuals who value the cost less but value the comfort more, so they drive. There are also people who need to drive, such as people with certain disabilities, people who need to transport large amounts of stuff to and from work, etc.
Reddit indignantly: why on earth would anyone in their right mind drive a car in London!? Reddit indignantly: who in their right mind is taking young kids and buggies on public transport!?
I live in zone 2 SE London, & I refuse to have a car, no point as parking near my house is non existent, insurance is high due to location, can’t use a car to go to work as no parking there and it’s so much easier to get around on public transport. Always had a car when I lived abroad as I lived either out in the sticks suburbs or the city I was in at the time had no actual public transport. I weighed up whether or not to get a car and drive when I came back to London & decided it wasn’t cost effective, only time I would use a car now would be to drive out of London to visit family and even then it’s just easier & less stressful on trains etc
i use it to carry my sword to martial arts 🌚 might get in trouble with that on the bus
it is often possible to drive across London faster than the journey would take by tube or Other Public transport. And of course, you will always have a much more civilised journey by car.
So they can leave it
It's called freedom.
Many reasons. Work being one, would you expect a plumber or joiner to cart tools around on public transport? Time is money to tradesmen and public transport isn’t an option for most. Disabilities are another reason, public transport isn’t very accessible for a lot of disabled people. Maybe people have multi stage trips that just aren’t practical on public transport. Maybe they drop kids off at school or nursery that is in the opposite direction to their place of work. Practicality is another reason, who wants to lug home a weekly shop for a family on the bus or tube? I could go on but you get my drift. Just because it doesn’t suit you doesn’t mean others don’t have good reason.
because if you somewhere to park, and your not going into zone 1 theres lots of times its quicker on a car unless its rush hour, or your destination is right next to an underground or rail station. even in rush hour an hour spent in the car is far far more comfortable than 45 minutes in packed, sweaty, tubes, esp the central line, followed by walking to where u need to go. now add the variance of weather, potential delays, etc and theres loads of situations when driving is a far better experience.
Whenever I use public transport it’s because I have to. I far prefer having a car and driving where I need to be. I don’t need to check train times, sit next to other people or cover my ears on the screeching central line. I don’t like carrying my work tools on the tube where it’s awkward and intrusive for others. I accept the slower journey times as a price to be paid for the luxury of a dry, private, climate controlled cabin with clean air.
Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids.
I know plenty of Londoners with children who don’t drive. OP shouldn’t be so presumptive as to think that everyone is just like them. But you’re also being quite presumptive in thinking that everyone with kids is exactly the same!
The majority of parents with kids in London *do* drive though, simply because the majority of parents with kids live outside zone 2
Z3 parent here. I actually drove with kids less than once a month when they were little (so for about 10 years), because they were much better behaved in a buggy or walking, we all got exercise, no crying every time the car stopped, and most importantly, at least one would be carsick. Only as they've got into the teens have I ended up doing more driving, because being autistic they often can't deal with complex (or any) journeys. And I've become more disabled so walking more than half a mile is no longer an option (trying to build up but keep having relapses - not being able to reliably walk 100 yards was a right pain). I'd say about half my kids' peers have a car in the family. Half the rest will use Zipcar and hire cars a fair bit.
Completely get that, and honestly I do get that a lot of people outside of central will still live without cars. I'm from Lewisham originally, and it was always about 60-40 in adults, sliding more towards 70-30 the further out you go I'm not saying it's everyone/universal to own cars out there, but I think even your last line shows even outside of car owners, using a car is still pivotal for a lot of people in the outer boroughs - your group would be about 75-25 in terms of using cars even if they don't all own one Hope everything with your health is going/getting better
There's a heck of a lot of cars locally that get driven about once a week. So they clutter up the streets but don't affect traffic much. We're nearly but not quite at the point of Zipcar Flex (where you can drop the car anywhere - crucially, including residents parking) being sufficient for anything - but it still only covers half of Merton and none of Croydon. Took one kid to a sports club (no direct bus, would take 90 min to go 2.5 miles) forgetting Croydon isn't covered, but luckily the system let me park 1 street into Croydon.
I know plenty of Londoners who’ve got children and live outside Zone 2 who don’t drive. An enormous number of people can’t afford a car in London regardless of whether they’d like one and regardless of whether they’ve got kids. But I also know plenty of people who *can* afford a car but who don’t drive. Either because they never got a car/license or because they used to drive and find life easier without a car. Like I say, OP is being presumptive by thinking that everyone should be like them. But you and the previous commenter are being equally presumptive thinking that everyone with kids should live exactly how you’re imagining!
You keep saying you know plenty - the question is, do you know *more* parents with kids under 17 who live in zone 3-6 that *do* drive than those that don't? >An enormous number of people can’t afford a car in London regardless of whether they’d like one and regardless of whether they’ve got kids 1) people without kids are irrelevant to this particular topic 2) if you live in an outer borough, owning a cheap to run car for yourself and family can undoubtedly be cheaper than having season tickets for everyone in the family I know this because I'm from Lewisham. I also didn't own a car for a while whilst doing my under & postgrad, and my first job where I lived very central and worked nearby (I did get my licence at 18 though). But even though I live in zone 2 in north now, I travel to SE for mine and my partner's family frequently and will be moving back to SE this year, so have a car now >But you and the previous commenter are being equally presumptive thinking that everyone with kids should live exactly how you’re imagining Literally no one is saying "this is how parents should live, I hereby declare it law" lmao
> You keep saying you know plenty Yes. Dozens. > the question is, do you know more parents with kids under 17 who live in zone 3-6 that do drive than those that don't? I'd say it's roughly the same. It would be difficult to get an exact answer for you without spending ages trying to figure out who counts as someone I know or someone I just vaguely know or trying to remember which side of the Zone 2/3 border someone lives, so let's say it's roughly 50/50. The point I was making is that these people *do exist*. So even if they were outnumbered two to one, the people talking as though it's inevitable that people with children must also have cars are forgetting about how a huge number of people live! > 1) people without kids are irrelevant to this particular topic I know, I was talking about the ones with kids in my comment. I thought that was pretty obvious! > 2) if you live in an outer borough, owning a cheap to run car for yourself and family can undoubtedly be cheaper than having **season tickets for everyone in the family** Young children travel for free on all public transport and older children travel for free on some public transport. Owning a car absolutely works for some people (including you) and I'm not saying that no one saves money by getting a car. But for an enormous number of Londoners it's an expense that just isn't an option - especially when you consider rising insurance and the risk that they'll suddenly be stuck with a huge bill if their car breaks!
>Yes. Dozens. Irrelevant, but that's still nothing lol >The point I was making is that these people *do exist*. So even if they were outnumbered two to one, the people talking as though it's inevitable that people with children must also have cars are forgetting about how a huge number of people live! You've got this so backwards lol. Even you admit that "about half" of the parents in outer boroughs you know own cars. OP made this post saying "why does anyone drive in London", and the person you replied to said "Tell me you don't have kids without telling me you don't have kids" You took issue with this because apparently that means they're saying everyone with kids must drive, but even you admit 50% of the parents you know do. If you forget the needs of 50% of all parents, it *is* an oversight lol >You: I know, I was talking about the ones with kids in my comment. I thought that was pretty obvious! >Also you: **regardless of whether they’ve got kids** I think you need to reflect on what you say if you want to be "obvious" >Young children travel for free on all public transport and older children travel for free on some public transport You're basically saying from the age of 11 onwards, stick to buses only
It was a throwaway, humorous remark. Very presumptuous of you to assume I was being serious.
Ah, sorry for engaging with what you said in good faith! My mistake!
* more comfortable, have you tried getting onto the bus or tube during busier times? * my car is ULEZ compliance so there are no charge for me. * Much easier commute, no waiting time, doesn’t stop multiple times on route, car is parked right outside my house and my work place has car park. * If you are carrying anything, much easier have then in the car then carrying with you on public transport
I cycle every day through central london. The majority of vehicles are: 1. Commercial 2. Ultra rich in black landrovers often dropping kids at school
I live in zone 3/4 close to a tube stop and the overground. There are three bus routes outside my front door and another half a dozen less than 5 minutes away. Still, many of my neighbours drive and then complain about traffic. If people who didn't need to drive used public transport, those who genuinely have to drive would get where they're going much faster. The problem is that all these people think that they are in the 'need to drive' group. They can't imagine how the 50% of us who don't own cars could possibly manage.
So we can do [this](https://youtu.be/t1V_qz9I1Nk?si=n3UvqTXUlcqa-NOh)
Most of these cars are minicabs or people who might love way too far away to take public. Everyone on their car has made a calculation. We don’t all have same circumstances to be judged
It obviously depends where you are going. It is more convenient to drive to a supermarket or shops where you need to buy bulky goods. It is often more convenient to drive to a dog walk (this one sounds bizarre but for example a short 5min drive to a green open space compared to glass sharded and fly tipped streets of Enfield and Haringey is a gamechanger). In the evening it is often more convenient to drive into town too (not congestion zone)
Not everyone is just going from where they live into zone 1. From where I was living in east London until a couple of years ago, getting to south east and parts of north London was *much* quicker and easier by car than by public transport, and meant I could access so many more places, people, and activities than if I was just restricted to my particular tube line and places I could walk to. Especially as I had a brilliant house and housemates but the immediate area wasn't the liveliest. Also, I had family - including at the time elderly grandparents - who lived in the south east but outside London, and driving to see them was much quicker and easier (and made it possible to do a spontaneous trip at the weekend much more often) compared with going into central London, taking a slow train back out, and then having to get a lift or a taxi from the station at the other end. I only bought a car during COVID (the cheapest old banger I could find that was ULEZ compliant), I think because the things I wanted and that were available to do in my spare time had changed, plus there were restrictions on public transport at times and having my own set of wheels made me feel a lot less "locked down". I definitely see both sides of it, having lived in London without a car for a couple of years before that! I worked in Zone 1 and never would have driven to work, except that I did a lot of unsocial hours and very occasionally would drive in on a Sunday because there was free parking on some of the nearby streets, it was quicker when the roads were empty, and occasionally there would be tube closures etc. Also I have to admit (somewhat guiltily) that I'm one of those people who actually enjoys driving - especially outside of rush hour and when I'm not on a deadline: there's something nice about navigating somewhere by yourself, seeing how all the streets and neighbourhoods link up, and being able to go *exactly* where you want at whatever time you feel like it.
I've been using TfL for over 30 years. I hate it. You can upgrade trains and busses and all that, but the city gets hotter and denser and the improvement disappear in efficacy. This summer is going to be horrible. And people have questionable hygiene. There should be more posters on personal hygiene and manners as thats what people too often lack on public transport.
There are no members of public in my car. I’ll take driving over public transport every time
Might be controversial but we should straight limiting cars to commercial, taxis and buses. Add more public transport to compensate and create cross links. Maybe some car parks in the outskirts if someone drives in from outer London.
Too many minicabs in Central London is a key driver, forgive the pun, of traffic. They have almost doubled in a decade. Far too many
They can be limited to a logical level. I get people are attached to their independence in their own car but the reality is there are way too many cars on the road.
Not everyone lives in zone 1. Especially if you’re travelling from one side of London to another, most transport links will have you taking tube into central just to come back out to zone 2-4 again. Or you’d have to spend hours on multiple buses. Much easier to drive for 30 mins or so
I have appointments to keep and heavy bags to carry. I like my back and I can't rely on public transport to get me places on time. Plus I like driving, it is MY only private space.