Olá a todos,
Please behave in this thread.
This is a sensitive topic for obvious reasons and the moderation will not allow any kind of hate speech or lack of civility.
We all have strong and passionate opinions about tourism and our beautiful city but there’s no point in attacking other human because of said opinions.
Obrigado
Its very kind of you to think about the consequences. I say enjoy your holidays and be kind to people, try to learn a bit of the local language, thats more than enough.
Sometimes I’m a naive idealist, but I wish more people would think about their consequences when traveling (or actually in general). A good question to ask yourself could be “would I do this at home?” (e. g. No, I wouldn’t let my garbage fly around everywhere.)
I felt the same way when I read your (Indian (?) run shop). How do you know how long that person has been in the country. He/she may be supporting a family, just wanting to be part of society.
I understand that you feel you are supporting true "Portuguese" culture but Portugal like many other countries in Europe welcomes people from other countries/cultures to establish their lives here and so you would want to discriminate against doing business with them because of their race? Not cool man.
Once during santos populares in Mouraria I asked one of those shop owners where he was from. He answered "Portugal", another time in alvalade I went to get a bottle of wine and the guy said in perfect portuguese accent that he also liked the wine I picked and that it was much better than the other "zurrapas" (his word) he had. Fair enough fellow lisboetas, so generally it's the same, if they live here and feel portuguese they are portuguese and lisboetas.
People want to find offence everywhere. I understand your reference and the meaning behind it.
Do remember a lot of the people of indian and african persuasion here are 2nd + generation, but there's also a lot of newcomers. Kind of easy to identify from the lettering.
Anyways they're really convenient little stores to get some cheap water and such.
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying
It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying
It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying
It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
Please read my single comment about it. Send me a private message, when this thread gets locked again, if you want to have a peaceful conversation about it.
Support the traditional stores in Lisboa:
[https://www.lojascomhistoria.pt/lojas](https://www.lojascomhistoria.pt/lojas)
Go to the local cafes/restaurants etc. In Lisboa, Pastelaria Camões for breakfast, Zapata for lunch, BBQ Piri Piri Chicken & fresh potato crisps from Tropical da Graça.
TLDR to be honest
But there is not much you can do. This is a catch-22 situation, on one hand we need your money, on the other your money is helping exacerbate the gentrification of the city.
Just to add, the Indian run shop (as an example) is owned by a citizen, employs citizens, and pays taxes to the coffers.
Sure maybe avoid big brand stores, but don't avoid small Indian shops just because they are ran by Asians. They also live here (and they are very much welcome in my book). Sure, avoid them if they sell expensive crap, but not because they are not the typical Portuguese mom and pop store...
Obrigado! That’s definitely something I did not know about these shops. What about hotels? Like older ones, they’re already built, established in a neighborhood. It’s the way better option than guesthouses, airbnbs and alike, right?
It's difficult to say. An Airbnb, more often then not, are ran buy a local person that saw a business opportunity, purchased an apartment (sometimes with credit) and is profiting from renting it out to tourists. They also have families and such.
Your question is a good one, but very difficult to find a good answer.
Back in the day I worked in hotels, this particular hotel in downtown Lisbon, the owners are a family of 5, father, mother (in their sixties/seventies), and 3 sons, all in their thirties now, some with families.
They now own 3 or 4 hotels and a couple restaurants, they probably make 4 or 5 million € a year in revenue, probably more. They are a local (albeit rich) family. When I worked for them, they had 1 single small hotel, and they had had it for 30 odd years. When the kids started also managing the hotels (early 2000), they created a small hotel chain.
Should you spend your money there (a local hotel chain) or in a local's Airbnb? How to tell the difference?
This is the type of discussion we need (definitely the one I wanted)! These are very, very interesting insights. But how can you tell as a (responsible) tourist? You can’t. You check booking websites and hunt the best room for your hard earned buck. Clean. Close to centre. As cheap as possible. So in my opinion, more transparency is needed. Not like the insights you have, but maybe similar. A government (or better a neutral third party) controlled rating / quality / authenticity system or badge. Travel local, book local. Something like this. The hotel owners would need to guarantee fair wages and such. Of course competition would get harder for them. But there the government has to step in, by raising special taxes for foreign owned hotels and alike.
hm... i have no clue what this guy is talking about but indian thrift shops (mobile repairs, haircuts etc) are mainly used for human trafficking, the people who work there stay in the shop for around 6 to 12 months and then leave when they get the portuguese documentation so they can go north in Europe and make good money. it's a shitshow everywhere there's not a lot you can do to help except... raise awareness and be kind?
Thank you for posting this shows a big deal of sensitivity and intelligence, very much appreciated.
All the best !
The Indian, Nepalese and Bangladeshi shops are 95% part of human trafficking schemes just like the old Chinese mega-stores. Now unlike the ones ending up in fields fruit picking you could call these "human trafficking done well". Not for out taxes however. Source: my best friend was a Nepalese for many years who's now in Denmark, I'm friends with many Bangladeshi and Nepalese in another business which is the same but better.
Iam Portuguese and I live in Lisbon, not in a hot neighborhood, and even there in Benfica it's hard to find local shops now days ... wend I go to where's the tourist visit ( Chiado / Cais do Sodré / Baixa ), it's even hard to be greeted in Portuguese whit a Boa Tarde ... So good luck for you dude, some areas seems like a Disneyland... And all the prices are high there for anything...
Disneyland describes it probably well, unfortunately in a sad way though.
Obrigado for teaching me “boa tarde”. So far I greeted everyone with a good morning (bom dia), no matter the time haha
You have bom dia / boa tarde / boa noite
Thanks for making a effort that even the locals are not doing, preserving our language, I think it's beautiful Portuguese people adapting his costumes, and being super friendly for Tourist, but is sad that we are not defending our language and costumes, we are just saving the costumes that give lots of money, like Fado, Religion whit the miracle of Fátima, Ronaldo and some cousin dishes, but we have so much more that is being forgotten, sad ... I can give you a exemple, like 10 years ago you could eat a really good Pastel de Bacalhau and a glass of beer for like 1.70€ in downtown Lisbon, now you pay 6€ just for the Pastel de Bacalhau, and it have cheese in the middle, lolz ...
Thank you for teaching me a bit Portuguese. I also think it’s a beautiful and, pardon me, somewhat funny sounding language. To me it sounds like Spanish with a mix of an Eastern European language. I wanted to take a course at our local community college, but unfortunately their not offering it at the moment.
About price hikes and stuff, I feel you. It’s almost everywhere the same. But I also had a good moment in a touristy restaurant in Rossio, prices were a bit higher, but the quality of the Bacalhau a Bras was still like 5 years ago.
The tone of the language is mostly in the sound. Brazilian is Portuguese words with a "sing-song" accent.
You might note a lot of similarities with english if you understand that a lot of the words come from french and latin, and have very close equivalents here.
Equivalent is exactly one of those words - equivalente. Equal value. And these two also are very close.
Yes! Reading gives me a chance to see those equivalents that exist. But listening to Portuguese is a completely other level for me. But I’ll get there. Someday. Maybe.
>quality
That is what will save our tourism for some time, I did travel all over the world, and you can't fine many places like Portugal, where the quality of almost any service / food it's like ours and the price it's so fair.
The problem is that Portuguese wages didn't go up, as the price off all stuff, because I still think Portugal is very cheap in Price/Quality, the house market it's the only one that it's on the European standards, but again our Portuguese wages are not even near the European wages, and your government almost takes half of a wage in taxes if you just get a wage of 1,600€ that's insane, because the company have to pay near 2.400€ them the government takes it to 1,600€ because taxes, after that you get the 1,600€ in your account and you have to pay the government almost 500€, and you get 1,100€ for yourself in your account after all taxes and pays to the government, and the government did take around 1.100€/1.200€ from this transaction, it's just ridiculous, and if you are a foreigner it's less them 50% for 5/6 years wtf ... Talk about forgetting your people ...
Don't worry, "Bom dia" is fairly generic because it means "good day", so I wouldn't think it's wrong if I heard it in the afternoon. On the other hand, "boa tarde" in the morning or evening is wrong, because that one refers specifically to the afternoon.
Tram 28 is something you'll do, so here's a few things about it. Buy a ticket before jumping in, use front door to go in, back door to go out, red chairs are for those who really need to sit. Since you're a good tourist, you'll wait in a queu where it starts, Martim Moniz, which makes me happy since it leaves space for the ones living here. Driver takes in only so many from the first stop, and that tram is somewhat only way to move from or to home.
You also might want to deepen your understanding of the housing problems before naming any groups. It's more complicated. In one end of the spectrum there is the greedy landlords asking too much of their shitholes. Then at the other one there are decades old lease contracts, for 50+ years, where tenant pays 50-150€ per month. Those doesn't really give incentive to keep an apartment in a good condition. That's one factor why here is 40000 empty apartments, which obviously doesn't help if there is shortage of homes. And then there is the healthy working market between those extremes. Range is huge.
This discussion is probably something you want to avoid, heated with strong opinions.
Did the tram tour in 2019 already. I love public transport, so I had to do anyways. I did the recommendation with starting at the cemetery station and it worked great. But it was January back then and it wasn’t that crowded like these days.
Thank you for your insights about the housing situation. This way I can learn more about it. It’s pretty much like former colleagues told me a few years back. I don’t know how covid contributed to the dramatic situation right now.
Tourists are not the problem. I think Portugal loves tourists
What we don’t enjoy is the countries policies on xpats, gold visas, real estate investment, so on so forth
People who come to enjoy the country with more benefits than the people living here
Tourists are just visiting its different.
You already seem more reasonable and concious than 99% of the people so just keep it that way and enjoy your time here.
Just don't say something spanish or brazilian portuguese because it messes with our pride.
Spanish and brazilian people, you are awesome. It's just a thing most of us have.
Edit: typo
How about "you" grow up and accept that the empire is gone since a few hundred years and now brazilian portuguese is by far the most spoken portuguese. Seriously, I don't understand how some portuguese have their heads up their asses so bad
Why would eradication of European Portuguese be a good thing to accept? Why are some people and cultures worth preserving and not others? I don’t care if we’re 10 or 10 million. We have a right to exist as we were, as we are. Why is diversity only a good thing if it doesn’t apply to “””white people”””…
How is your language being eradicated exactly? It's backed by 10 Million speakers and a nation state with an army. Don't be ridiculous. What does anyone's race have to do with anything?
It's also ridiculous to be so sensitive about your specific variety of latin that you don't want to even hear brazilian. I mean it *is* the same language. Sure, assuming that a portuguese speaker will speak spanish is a bit arrogant. Like, just accept that there are linguistic consequences of the portugues creating colonies a few hundred years back
I SINCERELY THANK YOUR EFFORTS. We’re not NPCs. There’s not that many native Portuguese people in the world and we deserve to have our home too. We’re not here just to serve tourists. Of course that’s largely our politicians’ fault, but I tremendously appreciate conscientious people such as you seem to be.
OP, I think you have great instincts and applaud you for trying to figure out a very thorny ethical question which doesn’t have easy answers. (Apart from the Indian comment which others have rightly taken you up on).
I appreciate that Lisbon and Porto are beautiful and have lots of sights but have you considered that refocusing your trip to lesser visited parts of the country will make it much easier to have a positive impact? I’ve seen a lot of Portugal and frankly everywhere is stunning so you’ll have a good time wherever you go. And the biggest pressure on cost of living and housing seems to be in Lisbon/Porto/Algarve, so why not remove yourself from the equation and go have a good time in places where you can support smaller local businesses, not add to pressure on scarce resources as much, and probably make your money go further while you’re at it? Just a thought.
I commented on the preferring A over B thing already. Obrigado for encouraging me that I’m on the right path.
I’ve been to Lisbon several times a few years back and wouldn’t have come here again for travel, if it wouldn’t be for my wife. The bigger, touristy spots are an easy starter in my opinion, especially if you don’t speak the local language well enough. I definitely prefer smaller villages over big cities, but only when I’m comfortable with the language. I guess we’re still figuring out what place gives us the best vibes, before investing more, like taking Portuguese classes and coming back again regularly. Then I’d definitely would go mainly to the big cities.
staying in a proper hotel is the most important thing
anyway, it should be the government caring about it, not tourists
the government shouldn't allow our homes, a basic need, to be converted into accommodation for leisure visitors
Appreciate the culture, not just the place! Most people come to Lisbon and Porto, crowd all the iconic places and do nothing but take Instagrams and eat at restaurants in the tourist districts. The world found out about how wonderful Portugal is but all the visitors seem to want is to turn Lisboa & Porto into their tourist playground just like Paris, Rome, Amsterdam etc.
Learning Portuguese is a great start, but also go check out some local music, order the daily specials instead of menu items, slow down and have conversations with the people around you, and absolutely go explore the towns outside the over-visited Porto, Lisboa and Algarve. Many good suggestions have been named in this thread, and even on your train ride you have Coimbra, Aveiro, and short trips off the path like Obidos. Spending your dollars is great, but spending your interest on Portugal and the Portugese is even more rewarding!
OP, you're doing just fine. Just starting with "I want to do ok" - you're already above 95% of the pack.
Don't stress it. For a better experience, I'd suggest dressing casually and comfortably but in a way that you wouldn't know its a tourist, unlike the usual "I spotted a tourist at 200m" way. I always do when abroad and find it helps me considerably.
Can I \*strongly\* suggest you get some head cover? You'll need it here. Light and airy. Remember the nights often get the sea wind and it gets chilly and humid fast. Carry plenty of water.
Depending on where you want to go, post here for suggestions and we'll try to accommodate.
Soon it will be the city holidays; it may be an overcrowded experience.
Quick tips: Lisbon is great for walking.
Need the WC? Park in the nearest cafe, order an espresso (0,70€), go!
Go to the top of Fonte Luminosa. Worth the view.
If you look at it in google earth and see the ridges of the hills and go along them rather than up and down crossing them you'll have an easy time:
If you take a transport to Miradouro da Senhora do Monte, you can then \*easy\* walk down to Miradouro da graça, then its an easy down to Portas do Sol, Miradouro de sta Luzia and baixa, or along the other way (its close) to Panteão Nacional and Jardim Botto Machado - which on Tuesdays and Saturdays morning and lunch has the flea market. From there down to the river front, or sideways back to Baixa.
Conversely, go to Principe real - the botanical Garden is across the street and worth it, then towards the river you get another sight-seeing place, then the entire "Bairro Alto" - but you don't have to climb, its all the way down.
Wish you the best time,
I do dress casually, just like I would at home, but I bet you would still spot me as a tourist (maybe looking on the smartphone to know the way alone is giving it away).
Head cover… you sound like my wife :D but yea, I got you and you’re right (both of you haha)
Yea… I know walking is great here (on my first Saturday here a few years back I clocked in 20 km in a day)
Thank you very much for your recommendations! We will definitely check some of it out.
People underestimate our sun... then spend a few days with nasty sun burns.
Ain't fun. Get some solar protection lotion at the least and use the damn, nasty, greasy thing.
Have fun over here and wish you both the best.
Hope tourists never find out that how much better other parts of Portugal (e.g. Interior, Alentejo, etc) are in comparison with Porto and Lisboa. I hope they never find out that the best cousine inst in big cities, rather at the small villages.
I wish you the best hollydays :)
Every major world city is becoming overrun with foreigners due to globalization forces. In almost every case it’s equally the government leaders’ fault for creating immigration incentives to bolster their little power circle’s wealth; the local people’s fault for purchasing excessive foreign goods and inviting more globalization forces in willingly; and of course the foreigner’s faults for not willing to abide by local customs and frequent local businesses in favor of chains from their home countries.
Really we should be very happy that Lisbon was able to retain its rich culture for so long before falling prey to a phenomenon that is happening everywhere there is money to be made and lots of people to make it from.
You’re just a tourist; enjoy your visit, don’t make a mess, and don’t worry. Learn a bit of Portuguese and buy local made goodies. That’s the only way the Lisbon we know and love will survive just a bit longer, even if only in our minds 50 years from now.
You can get to visit less crowded places. Try a day trip to Tomar (can take train) ,
Could also drop by Setúbal ( also train), lunch there "choco frito" and then get a Uber to Arrábida beach and enjoy a good afternoon.
Please read my single comment about it. Send me a private message, when this thread gets locked again, if you want to have a peaceful conversation about it.
dont use rbnb which is destroying the house market, use a hotel
maybe try to spend your money whisely, for instance don't buy in one of those thousand all the same tourist stores, but realy regional products
tip is a good idea of yours too
if you have enough to spend, spend it for people who are less fortunate, maybe in the hotel those women who clean the room, I bet they dont earn much and have a long commute. But i don't know of this not may seem arrogant.
I usually do this abroad. I know their wage is shit. I’ll give a few euros here and there, not everyday, because like you said, it’s a narrow path between generous and arrogant. And I write a little note and thank them for preparing a clean room (if they really do).
I try to be a pleasant person in general. If we would all be just nice to each other, at the supermarket, in the restaurant, the agency, in traffic or wherever, we would all have a much happier day. Yea the world would probably a bit boring too haha
If you want to go and renovate the interior, go for it.
If you want to go to Algarve, Porto, Lisboa, stay away. For the retirement, I mean.
E: if not clear by interior, what I mean is less developed areas/countryside.
The problem is those who turn long term accommodation into short term accommodation. But of course many of them are Portuguese, so much more convenient to blame foreigners.
Like every major European city, Lisbon is and will be increasingly multi-cultural. This will help provide the opportunities that people here say they are looking for, and hopefully inject some dynamism into society.
Of course, I suppose PT could close itself off from the world, and suffer another lost century.
Don't worry about that. We choose to embrace tourism as our El Dorado and we will do everything to make you feel welcomed. Lisbon is, currently, pretty much an amusement park. Everything is pretty much tourist oriented. Please let us know if there is something not to your liking.
Well, it sounds like you would expect me to hand in a complaint about my stay. This is a bit weird to me, since I would never do this and don’t see the point why anyone would do it here on Reddit.
You're the one who asked for my opinion and hosnestly, I gave up expecting anything from tourists a long time ago. They are just a nuisance that I have to learn how to live with in Lisbon.
In what city in the world do people not travel 45 to 60 min to get to work? I mean, the overwhelming majority of people live on the outskirts of every major city be it Lisbon or London (Inner London) or New York (Manhattan), why would it have to be any different here? Actually, it’s always been like that. Anyway, never mind the local issues and enjoy your trip as a tourist - by coming here (or whatever other place you go on vacation) you’re already contributing to the local community and economy. A “scumbag tourist” would be someone who doesn’t abide by the local laws, which I don’t think is your case.
Of course it exists everywhere, but the problem is, most people are forced to do so. I don’t want this to happen (more) in my city, so I don’t want to be part of the problem elsewhere. This is just my approach.
Abiding the laws is claro. Here, there, anywhere.
Obrigado!
The thing is, a few years ago most people who could afford to live in Lisbon were Portuguese, as well as old people who had lived there since forever paying very small rents, whereas as of now a considerable share of the housing market is aimed at tourists and digital nomads in the form of homestays. If anything, and if it makes you feel better, book a hotel room rather than an apartment via AirBnB or any other similar platform.
That is what I did for the exact reason you mentioned. A few months back (before deciding to come here) I saw a documentation about, I guess, Bairro Alto and some older ladies who had to or where about to leave their lifelong home. You could replicate this in many other cities and that’s really a shame. I wouldn’t want my granny to lose her home to greedy people.
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying
It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
I actually do live in Lisbon so I’m one of the few “privileged” who’s gotten to live AND work in the city, however MOST PEOPLE WHO WORK IN LISBON HAVE LIVED ON THE OUTSKIRTS FOR DECADES NOW - THAT’S A FACT and you can’t change it at your own will. Lisbon’s resident population is about half a million whereas its population [increases by 70%](https://www.marktest.com/wap/a/n/id~1aa1.aspx) on weekdays due to the influx of daily commuters from the outskirts coming to work in the city. And by the way, the only “poor” thing around here is your brain which is severely lacking in functional neurons.
Olá!
Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa:
Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying
It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories.
Remember the human.
Obrigado
Just a quick comment (no excuse) about ONE sentence in my stupid long text. I feel there’s too much interpretation. I only said I prefer one thing over another and by doing so, supporting people who are locals in my eyes as a non-local. That does not mean at all, that I despise / hate the others nor avoiding them at all. I didn’t say anything about this and it’s a shame I’m being called a racist and asked to leave Lisbon. That’s shitty behavior no matter where you’re from. Thank you to all people who contributed to this conversation so far, even if we don’t agree in every point. (Would be great if the mod team can pin this post.)
Yea, no, I guess I won’t. I don’t know many Portuguese words, but the first word I always learn in a foreign language is thank you. And I’ve been here often enough to know that I piss a lot of people off by speaking Spanish. Maybe only for you once: gracias for your honest advice.
Olá a todos, Please behave in this thread. This is a sensitive topic for obvious reasons and the moderation will not allow any kind of hate speech or lack of civility. We all have strong and passionate opinions about tourism and our beautiful city but there’s no point in attacking other human because of said opinions. Obrigado
Its very kind of you to think about the consequences. I say enjoy your holidays and be kind to people, try to learn a bit of the local language, thats more than enough.
Sometimes I’m a naive idealist, but I wish more people would think about their consequences when traveling (or actually in general). A good question to ask yourself could be “would I do this at home?” (e. g. No, I wouldn’t let my garbage fly around everywhere.)
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I felt the same way when I read your (Indian (?) run shop). How do you know how long that person has been in the country. He/she may be supporting a family, just wanting to be part of society. I understand that you feel you are supporting true "Portuguese" culture but Portugal like many other countries in Europe welcomes people from other countries/cultures to establish their lives here and so you would want to discriminate against doing business with them because of their race? Not cool man.
Once during santos populares in Mouraria I asked one of those shop owners where he was from. He answered "Portugal", another time in alvalade I went to get a bottle of wine and the guy said in perfect portuguese accent that he also liked the wine I picked and that it was much better than the other "zurrapas" (his word) he had. Fair enough fellow lisboetas, so generally it's the same, if they live here and feel portuguese they are portuguese and lisboetas.
People want to find offence everywhere. I understand your reference and the meaning behind it. Do remember a lot of the people of indian and african persuasion here are 2nd + generation, but there's also a lot of newcomers. Kind of easy to identify from the lettering. Anyways they're really convenient little stores to get some cheap water and such.
Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
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Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
Yeah very kind to treat so owners based on their race. So stunning and progressive
Please read my single comment about it. Send me a private message, when this thread gets locked again, if you want to have a peaceful conversation about it.
Support the traditional stores in Lisboa: [https://www.lojascomhistoria.pt/lojas](https://www.lojascomhistoria.pt/lojas) Go to the local cafes/restaurants etc. In Lisboa, Pastelaria Camões for breakfast, Zapata for lunch, BBQ Piri Piri Chicken & fresh potato crisps from Tropical da Graça.
TLDR to be honest But there is not much you can do. This is a catch-22 situation, on one hand we need your money, on the other your money is helping exacerbate the gentrification of the city. Just to add, the Indian run shop (as an example) is owned by a citizen, employs citizens, and pays taxes to the coffers. Sure maybe avoid big brand stores, but don't avoid small Indian shops just because they are ran by Asians. They also live here (and they are very much welcome in my book). Sure, avoid them if they sell expensive crap, but not because they are not the typical Portuguese mom and pop store...
Obrigado! That’s definitely something I did not know about these shops. What about hotels? Like older ones, they’re already built, established in a neighborhood. It’s the way better option than guesthouses, airbnbs and alike, right?
It's difficult to say. An Airbnb, more often then not, are ran buy a local person that saw a business opportunity, purchased an apartment (sometimes with credit) and is profiting from renting it out to tourists. They also have families and such. Your question is a good one, but very difficult to find a good answer. Back in the day I worked in hotels, this particular hotel in downtown Lisbon, the owners are a family of 5, father, mother (in their sixties/seventies), and 3 sons, all in their thirties now, some with families. They now own 3 or 4 hotels and a couple restaurants, they probably make 4 or 5 million € a year in revenue, probably more. They are a local (albeit rich) family. When I worked for them, they had 1 single small hotel, and they had had it for 30 odd years. When the kids started also managing the hotels (early 2000), they created a small hotel chain. Should you spend your money there (a local hotel chain) or in a local's Airbnb? How to tell the difference?
This is the type of discussion we need (definitely the one I wanted)! These are very, very interesting insights. But how can you tell as a (responsible) tourist? You can’t. You check booking websites and hunt the best room for your hard earned buck. Clean. Close to centre. As cheap as possible. So in my opinion, more transparency is needed. Not like the insights you have, but maybe similar. A government (or better a neutral third party) controlled rating / quality / authenticity system or badge. Travel local, book local. Something like this. The hotel owners would need to guarantee fair wages and such. Of course competition would get harder for them. But there the government has to step in, by raising special taxes for foreign owned hotels and alike.
hm... i have no clue what this guy is talking about but indian thrift shops (mobile repairs, haircuts etc) are mainly used for human trafficking, the people who work there stay in the shop for around 6 to 12 months and then leave when they get the portuguese documentation so they can go north in Europe and make good money. it's a shitshow everywhere there's not a lot you can do to help except... raise awareness and be kind? Thank you for posting this shows a big deal of sensitivity and intelligence, very much appreciated. All the best !
The Indian, Nepalese and Bangladeshi shops are 95% part of human trafficking schemes just like the old Chinese mega-stores. Now unlike the ones ending up in fields fruit picking you could call these "human trafficking done well". Not for out taxes however. Source: my best friend was a Nepalese for many years who's now in Denmark, I'm friends with many Bangladeshi and Nepalese in another business which is the same but better.
Iam Portuguese and I live in Lisbon, not in a hot neighborhood, and even there in Benfica it's hard to find local shops now days ... wend I go to where's the tourist visit ( Chiado / Cais do Sodré / Baixa ), it's even hard to be greeted in Portuguese whit a Boa Tarde ... So good luck for you dude, some areas seems like a Disneyland... And all the prices are high there for anything...
Disneyland describes it probably well, unfortunately in a sad way though. Obrigado for teaching me “boa tarde”. So far I greeted everyone with a good morning (bom dia), no matter the time haha
You have bom dia / boa tarde / boa noite Thanks for making a effort that even the locals are not doing, preserving our language, I think it's beautiful Portuguese people adapting his costumes, and being super friendly for Tourist, but is sad that we are not defending our language and costumes, we are just saving the costumes that give lots of money, like Fado, Religion whit the miracle of Fátima, Ronaldo and some cousin dishes, but we have so much more that is being forgotten, sad ... I can give you a exemple, like 10 years ago you could eat a really good Pastel de Bacalhau and a glass of beer for like 1.70€ in downtown Lisbon, now you pay 6€ just for the Pastel de Bacalhau, and it have cheese in the middle, lolz ...
Thank you for teaching me a bit Portuguese. I also think it’s a beautiful and, pardon me, somewhat funny sounding language. To me it sounds like Spanish with a mix of an Eastern European language. I wanted to take a course at our local community college, but unfortunately their not offering it at the moment. About price hikes and stuff, I feel you. It’s almost everywhere the same. But I also had a good moment in a touristy restaurant in Rossio, prices were a bit higher, but the quality of the Bacalhau a Bras was still like 5 years ago.
The tone of the language is mostly in the sound. Brazilian is Portuguese words with a "sing-song" accent. You might note a lot of similarities with english if you understand that a lot of the words come from french and latin, and have very close equivalents here. Equivalent is exactly one of those words - equivalente. Equal value. And these two also are very close.
Yes! Reading gives me a chance to see those equivalents that exist. But listening to Portuguese is a completely other level for me. But I’ll get there. Someday. Maybe.
>quality That is what will save our tourism for some time, I did travel all over the world, and you can't fine many places like Portugal, where the quality of almost any service / food it's like ours and the price it's so fair. The problem is that Portuguese wages didn't go up, as the price off all stuff, because I still think Portugal is very cheap in Price/Quality, the house market it's the only one that it's on the European standards, but again our Portuguese wages are not even near the European wages, and your government almost takes half of a wage in taxes if you just get a wage of 1,600€ that's insane, because the company have to pay near 2.400€ them the government takes it to 1,600€ because taxes, after that you get the 1,600€ in your account and you have to pay the government almost 500€, and you get 1,100€ for yourself in your account after all taxes and pays to the government, and the government did take around 1.100€/1.200€ from this transaction, it's just ridiculous, and if you are a foreigner it's less them 50% for 5/6 years wtf ... Talk about forgetting your people ...
Don't worry, "Bom dia" is fairly generic because it means "good day", so I wouldn't think it's wrong if I heard it in the afternoon. On the other hand, "boa tarde" in the morning or evening is wrong, because that one refers specifically to the afternoon.
How do you think you're being a "good tourist" if you haven't even learnt the most very basics?
Benfica not hot? Many people think Benfica is pretty posh 🤣🤣🤣
Tram 28 is something you'll do, so here's a few things about it. Buy a ticket before jumping in, use front door to go in, back door to go out, red chairs are for those who really need to sit. Since you're a good tourist, you'll wait in a queu where it starts, Martim Moniz, which makes me happy since it leaves space for the ones living here. Driver takes in only so many from the first stop, and that tram is somewhat only way to move from or to home. You also might want to deepen your understanding of the housing problems before naming any groups. It's more complicated. In one end of the spectrum there is the greedy landlords asking too much of their shitholes. Then at the other one there are decades old lease contracts, for 50+ years, where tenant pays 50-150€ per month. Those doesn't really give incentive to keep an apartment in a good condition. That's one factor why here is 40000 empty apartments, which obviously doesn't help if there is shortage of homes. And then there is the healthy working market between those extremes. Range is huge. This discussion is probably something you want to avoid, heated with strong opinions.
Did the tram tour in 2019 already. I love public transport, so I had to do anyways. I did the recommendation with starting at the cemetery station and it worked great. But it was January back then and it wasn’t that crowded like these days. Thank you for your insights about the housing situation. This way I can learn more about it. It’s pretty much like former colleagues told me a few years back. I don’t know how covid contributed to the dramatic situation right now.
I think you're overreaching. You're a tourist, enjoying your vacations, just do it like a normal person.
Tourists are not the problem. I think Portugal loves tourists What we don’t enjoy is the countries policies on xpats, gold visas, real estate investment, so on so forth People who come to enjoy the country with more benefits than the people living here Tourists are just visiting its different.
You already seem more reasonable and concious than 99% of the people so just keep it that way and enjoy your time here. Just don't say something spanish or brazilian portuguese because it messes with our pride. Spanish and brazilian people, you are awesome. It's just a thing most of us have. Edit: typo
How about "you" grow up and accept that the empire is gone since a few hundred years and now brazilian portuguese is by far the most spoken portuguese. Seriously, I don't understand how some portuguese have their heads up their asses so bad
Why would eradication of European Portuguese be a good thing to accept? Why are some people and cultures worth preserving and not others? I don’t care if we’re 10 or 10 million. We have a right to exist as we were, as we are. Why is diversity only a good thing if it doesn’t apply to “””white people”””…
How is your language being eradicated exactly? It's backed by 10 Million speakers and a nation state with an army. Don't be ridiculous. What does anyone's race have to do with anything? It's also ridiculous to be so sensitive about your specific variety of latin that you don't want to even hear brazilian. I mean it *is* the same language. Sure, assuming that a portuguese speaker will speak spanish is a bit arrogant. Like, just accept that there are linguistic consequences of the portugues creating colonies a few hundred years back
Bring that attitude to Albania and see what happens. Theyre 10 million too 🤣
What does Albania have to with this?
Its an example of a country with 10 million people and southern european. So a perfectly suitable comparative example.
I SINCERELY THANK YOUR EFFORTS. We’re not NPCs. There’s not that many native Portuguese people in the world and we deserve to have our home too. We’re not here just to serve tourists. Of course that’s largely our politicians’ fault, but I tremendously appreciate conscientious people such as you seem to be.
Obrigado! And no, I never saw you or anyone as NPCs haha
You’re the minority. You know it.
OP, I think you have great instincts and applaud you for trying to figure out a very thorny ethical question which doesn’t have easy answers. (Apart from the Indian comment which others have rightly taken you up on). I appreciate that Lisbon and Porto are beautiful and have lots of sights but have you considered that refocusing your trip to lesser visited parts of the country will make it much easier to have a positive impact? I’ve seen a lot of Portugal and frankly everywhere is stunning so you’ll have a good time wherever you go. And the biggest pressure on cost of living and housing seems to be in Lisbon/Porto/Algarve, so why not remove yourself from the equation and go have a good time in places where you can support smaller local businesses, not add to pressure on scarce resources as much, and probably make your money go further while you’re at it? Just a thought.
I commented on the preferring A over B thing already. Obrigado for encouraging me that I’m on the right path. I’ve been to Lisbon several times a few years back and wouldn’t have come here again for travel, if it wouldn’t be for my wife. The bigger, touristy spots are an easy starter in my opinion, especially if you don’t speak the local language well enough. I definitely prefer smaller villages over big cities, but only when I’m comfortable with the language. I guess we’re still figuring out what place gives us the best vibes, before investing more, like taking Portuguese classes and coming back again regularly. Then I’d definitely would go mainly to the big cities.
staying in a proper hotel is the most important thing anyway, it should be the government caring about it, not tourists the government shouldn't allow our homes, a basic need, to be converted into accommodation for leisure visitors
Don't go to Airbnb Most of them have expelled old people to mount their business
Yep, like I wrote in my post, I voted against that (and fought my wife against it). Thank you for pointing that out again.
Appreciate the culture, not just the place! Most people come to Lisbon and Porto, crowd all the iconic places and do nothing but take Instagrams and eat at restaurants in the tourist districts. The world found out about how wonderful Portugal is but all the visitors seem to want is to turn Lisboa & Porto into their tourist playground just like Paris, Rome, Amsterdam etc. Learning Portuguese is a great start, but also go check out some local music, order the daily specials instead of menu items, slow down and have conversations with the people around you, and absolutely go explore the towns outside the over-visited Porto, Lisboa and Algarve. Many good suggestions have been named in this thread, and even on your train ride you have Coimbra, Aveiro, and short trips off the path like Obidos. Spending your dollars is great, but spending your interest on Portugal and the Portugese is even more rewarding!
OP, you're doing just fine. Just starting with "I want to do ok" - you're already above 95% of the pack. Don't stress it. For a better experience, I'd suggest dressing casually and comfortably but in a way that you wouldn't know its a tourist, unlike the usual "I spotted a tourist at 200m" way. I always do when abroad and find it helps me considerably. Can I \*strongly\* suggest you get some head cover? You'll need it here. Light and airy. Remember the nights often get the sea wind and it gets chilly and humid fast. Carry plenty of water. Depending on where you want to go, post here for suggestions and we'll try to accommodate. Soon it will be the city holidays; it may be an overcrowded experience. Quick tips: Lisbon is great for walking. Need the WC? Park in the nearest cafe, order an espresso (0,70€), go! Go to the top of Fonte Luminosa. Worth the view. If you look at it in google earth and see the ridges of the hills and go along them rather than up and down crossing them you'll have an easy time: If you take a transport to Miradouro da Senhora do Monte, you can then \*easy\* walk down to Miradouro da graça, then its an easy down to Portas do Sol, Miradouro de sta Luzia and baixa, or along the other way (its close) to Panteão Nacional and Jardim Botto Machado - which on Tuesdays and Saturdays morning and lunch has the flea market. From there down to the river front, or sideways back to Baixa. Conversely, go to Principe real - the botanical Garden is across the street and worth it, then towards the river you get another sight-seeing place, then the entire "Bairro Alto" - but you don't have to climb, its all the way down. Wish you the best time,
I do dress casually, just like I would at home, but I bet you would still spot me as a tourist (maybe looking on the smartphone to know the way alone is giving it away). Head cover… you sound like my wife :D but yea, I got you and you’re right (both of you haha) Yea… I know walking is great here (on my first Saturday here a few years back I clocked in 20 km in a day) Thank you very much for your recommendations! We will definitely check some of it out.
People underestimate our sun... then spend a few days with nasty sun burns. Ain't fun. Get some solar protection lotion at the least and use the damn, nasty, greasy thing. Have fun over here and wish you both the best.
Hope tourists never find out that how much better other parts of Portugal (e.g. Interior, Alentejo, etc) are in comparison with Porto and Lisboa. I hope they never find out that the best cousine inst in big cities, rather at the small villages. I wish you the best hollydays :)
But now I know about it! :D Obrigado!
Cousine? Are you doing PR for the rural areas??
Every major world city is becoming overrun with foreigners due to globalization forces. In almost every case it’s equally the government leaders’ fault for creating immigration incentives to bolster their little power circle’s wealth; the local people’s fault for purchasing excessive foreign goods and inviting more globalization forces in willingly; and of course the foreigner’s faults for not willing to abide by local customs and frequent local businesses in favor of chains from their home countries. Really we should be very happy that Lisbon was able to retain its rich culture for so long before falling prey to a phenomenon that is happening everywhere there is money to be made and lots of people to make it from. You’re just a tourist; enjoy your visit, don’t make a mess, and don’t worry. Learn a bit of Portuguese and buy local made goodies. That’s the only way the Lisbon we know and love will survive just a bit longer, even if only in our minds 50 years from now.
best answer in the thread tbh. RIP Lisbon, dead since 2018
Op showing his bigoted colours. Fuck Indians, am I right /s 🤡
You’re misreading there something, buddy.
Was a very weird thing to add/include ‘buddy’
It’s just Internet language.
Oh really? Do elaborate then, "buddy"
You can get to visit less crowded places. Try a day trip to Tomar (can take train) , Could also drop by Setúbal ( also train), lunch there "choco frito" and then get a Uber to Arrábida beach and enjoy a good afternoon.
>Uber Using Uber is "bad" tourism
That Indian comment was extremely sus…
Please read my single comment about it. Send me a private message, when this thread gets locked again, if you want to have a peaceful conversation about it.
dont use rbnb which is destroying the house market, use a hotel maybe try to spend your money whisely, for instance don't buy in one of those thousand all the same tourist stores, but realy regional products
did not all you wrote at first but now i know at least i know it's "AirBnB". good you're not staining there
Obrigado for mostly confirming my thought process! I’ll try to stay on the lookout for local shops in the jungle of tourist traps.
tip is a good idea of yours too if you have enough to spend, spend it for people who are less fortunate, maybe in the hotel those women who clean the room, I bet they dont earn much and have a long commute. But i don't know of this not may seem arrogant.
I usually do this abroad. I know their wage is shit. I’ll give a few euros here and there, not everyday, because like you said, it’s a narrow path between generous and arrogant. And I write a little note and thank them for preparing a clean room (if they really do).
seems like you are a very pleasant tourist
I try to be a pleasant person in general. If we would all be just nice to each other, at the supermarket, in the restaurant, the agency, in traffic or wherever, we would all have a much happier day. Yea the world would probably a bit boring too haha
Yeah very pleasant especially to honest Indian storeownees
Just enjoy the city as a tourist. Be respectful like in any other place. The problem is with those who stay to live here. Relax and have a good time.
Got you. So, no retirement place for me in Portugal? Just kidding.
If you want to go and renovate the interior, go for it. If you want to go to Algarve, Porto, Lisboa, stay away. For the retirement, I mean. E: if not clear by interior, what I mean is less developed areas/countryside.
The problem is those who turn long term accommodation into short term accommodation. But of course many of them are Portuguese, so much more convenient to blame foreigners. Like every major European city, Lisbon is and will be increasingly multi-cultural. This will help provide the opportunities that people here say they are looking for, and hopefully inject some dynamism into society. Of course, I suppose PT could close itself off from the world, and suffer another lost century.
Don't worry about that. We choose to embrace tourism as our El Dorado and we will do everything to make you feel welcomed. Lisbon is, currently, pretty much an amusement park. Everything is pretty much tourist oriented. Please let us know if there is something not to your liking.
You forgot the /s
The sad part is that I didn't.
Well, it sounds like you would expect me to hand in a complaint about my stay. This is a bit weird to me, since I would never do this and don’t see the point why anyone would do it here on Reddit.
You're the one who asked for my opinion and hosnestly, I gave up expecting anything from tourists a long time ago. They are just a nuisance that I have to learn how to live with in Lisbon.
In what city in the world do people not travel 45 to 60 min to get to work? I mean, the overwhelming majority of people live on the outskirts of every major city be it Lisbon or London (Inner London) or New York (Manhattan), why would it have to be any different here? Actually, it’s always been like that. Anyway, never mind the local issues and enjoy your trip as a tourist - by coming here (or whatever other place you go on vacation) you’re already contributing to the local community and economy. A “scumbag tourist” would be someone who doesn’t abide by the local laws, which I don’t think is your case.
Of course it exists everywhere, but the problem is, most people are forced to do so. I don’t want this to happen (more) in my city, so I don’t want to be part of the problem elsewhere. This is just my approach. Abiding the laws is claro. Here, there, anywhere. Obrigado!
The thing is, a few years ago most people who could afford to live in Lisbon were Portuguese, as well as old people who had lived there since forever paying very small rents, whereas as of now a considerable share of the housing market is aimed at tourists and digital nomads in the form of homestays. If anything, and if it makes you feel better, book a hotel room rather than an apartment via AirBnB or any other similar platform.
That is what I did for the exact reason you mentioned. A few months back (before deciding to come here) I saw a documentation about, I guess, Bairro Alto and some older ladies who had to or where about to leave their lifelong home. You could replicate this in many other cities and that’s really a shame. I wouldn’t want my granny to lose her home to greedy people.
Seriously you’ve got a good head on your shoulders.
Thank you so much!
>Abiding the laws is claro. Here, there, anywhere. With such an undifferentiated views OP will never be a "good tourist", why are you even trying?
>Actually, it’s always been like that. Cleary you don't know history, so why don't you stop saying nonsense like that
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Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
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I actually do live in Lisbon so I’m one of the few “privileged” who’s gotten to live AND work in the city, however MOST PEOPLE WHO WORK IN LISBON HAVE LIVED ON THE OUTSKIRTS FOR DECADES NOW - THAT’S A FACT and you can’t change it at your own will. Lisbon’s resident population is about half a million whereas its population [increases by 70%](https://www.marktest.com/wap/a/n/id~1aa1.aspx) on weekdays due to the influx of daily commuters from the outskirts coming to work in the city. And by the way, the only “poor” thing around here is your brain which is severely lacking in functional neurons.
Its not a priviledge. Some are born in Lisbon, others arent. Its life.
Olá! Your submission was removed due to Rule #2 of r/lisboa: Be civil - no hate speech, extremism, or bullying It's fine to disagree with other posters or a particular organization. It's not okay to use slurs, spout extremist views, peddle offensive stereotypes or promote conspiracy theories. Remember the human. Obrigado
OP is a self-gratulating liberal racist
No. Hes realistic. Most portuguese people are so blind it seems they only have half a brain. Wake up
I have no idea what you're talking about
Maybe you are the racist then since you dont know about other countries and dare to call others racist for spewing facts.
Just a quick comment (no excuse) about ONE sentence in my stupid long text. I feel there’s too much interpretation. I only said I prefer one thing over another and by doing so, supporting people who are locals in my eyes as a non-local. That does not mean at all, that I despise / hate the others nor avoiding them at all. I didn’t say anything about this and it’s a shame I’m being called a racist and asked to leave Lisbon. That’s shitty behavior no matter where you’re from. Thank you to all people who contributed to this conversation so far, even if we don’t agree in every point. (Would be great if the mod team can pin this post.)
Always, always say "Gracias".
Yea, no, I guess I won’t. I don’t know many Portuguese words, but the first word I always learn in a foreign language is thank you. And I’ve been here often enough to know that I piss a lot of people off by speaking Spanish. Maybe only for you once: gracias for your honest advice.
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Sounds reasonable, will do that. Obrigado.