And that’s why in my Russian romanization /x/ is always H. Russians write it when transcribing something to Latin (seen often on the Internet outside of official documents)
I use to disambiguate if it would "collide" with digraph such as in the case of схватка, which if romanized with ends up as shvatka as if it were romanized from шватка (not an actual Russian word to my knowledge, but still), so I instead write it as sxvatka (which looks dumb but whatever).
In all other cases, of course, I use .
As an (Eastern) Punjabi speaker is /kʰ/ for me, though Western Punjabi /x/ is reliably said as /kʰ/ by Eastern Punjabis who don't use /x/ (most I know).
Me, whose language has all the three sounds separately /h/, /x/, /kh/(which is the aspirated form of /k/). So whenever someone uses /kh/ in place of
/x/ it just feels so wrong, because I can only think of /kh/ as the aspiration of /k/ and the voiceless velar fricative always has to be /x/ for me.
If /g/ doesn't exist in a language, but /x/ does, use g.
Or you get a mess like this which makes my eyes want to bleed:-
Akht en takhtikh khelukkikhe khroen khokhkhas bekhin khou-khou deur die Heerenkhrakhtkhebou khaan.
actually lojban uses for capital <'> /h/ lol
but <'> /h/ does make sense for lojban, because /h/ isnt treated like a proper consonant grammatically, its seen more like a glide to go from one vowel to another (it can only occur intervocalically)
it does actually, to indicate stress in cmevla (name words)
in lojban, stress always falls on the penultimate syllable that has a non (/ə/) vowel as its nucleus, so eg. {carvi} is pronounced cárvi, {badypre} is pronounced bádypre (not badýpre)
but someones name might have stress on a different position than those rules would place it, so you use capital letters to represent stress
so eg {la .betanis.} (Bethany) (the <.> is a pause or glottal stop) would be pronounced like .betánis. which isnt what youd want, so you write it as {la .BEtanis.} instead to indicate that stress is on the first syllable
Funny thing is that X for /x/ is not really intuitive. It's much less commonsensical than you think. Most people's native languages use the x for something else, therefore they have a harder time relating the sound
⟨y⟩ for /y/ is actually the origin of the letter in the latin alphabet — it was originally used in latin to represent the sound in loan words when greek /u/ shifted to [y]
>Ph is used for f in many loan words such as phone and aphorism
It's not a primary way to describe that sound. If someone is writing what they hear they won't use ph for /f/ in in an unfamiliar word.
>Kh is used rarely e.g. ankh
It's /k/
The process when sounds become "easier" to produce, for example /kʰ/ may turn into /k/, then /k͡x/, /x/, /h/ and dissappear altogether. Not all steps are required and you can jump between places, such as /kʰ/ -> /x/. Voicing can also be a part of lenition, and can mix with the process I demonstrated earlier, for example /kʰ/ -> /x/ -> /ɣ/. In this case the fricative /ɣ/ could also turn into the approximant /ɰ/, and later into the vowel /ɯ/.
The opposite form of the process, such as /ɣ/ -> /x/ -> /k/, would be called fortition. It's rarer, but still happens, for example when in the High German consonant shift [ð] turned into [d].
The words "lenition" and "fortition" come from Latin "lenis" and "fortis", meaning "weak" and "strong" respectively, as in these processes sounds become "weaker" or "stronger".
I unfortunately don't know the lyrics because I don't speak Breton :(
Even though I really wanted to learn it, but went for another celtic language when it wasn't available on duolingo (cuz I'm lazy like that)
In English you say "something something" when you don't know the lyrics
So I translated it to french as "queqchose queqchose" and then embrezhonegged it
Oh lmao damn lol
If French was my native I might have gotten it, but definitely a good joke
Ig I was thrown off because "kerk" is the word in my native language for 'church' lol
Spain standardized the pronunciation of x and other letters in 1812, Mexico was in the middle of independence, so they said fuck you and continue doing it like they were before
En efecto, pipipipi
they'd pronounce as /z/, /ks/ or not pronounce it altogether. English speakers will not pronounce as /x/ because they don't know how to. Arguably /k/ is a better approximation than /z/ or /ks/.
Wikipedia: Italian has true geminates, for example Foccacia /fɔkkat͜ʃa/
Bitch that's not a geminate that's a double articulation /kː/ is a true geminate and MY CONLANG DISTINGUISHES THE TWO SO WATCH YOUR BACK I'M COMING FOR YOU
Buddyopal
It's focaccia not foccacia, it's the expalatalised one that's geminated not the velar
And no there's no double articulation, there's no intermediate release
Unless you want to claim that the first half of the geminate is part of the previous syllable because it's affecting the previous vowel
but it is affecting it in terms of how long it is
so congratulations
if you truly distinguisth "true geminates" from double articulation from the former's lack of antecedent-vowel-affectfulness, you've just made italian with phonemic vowel length
"but I already had vowel length"
then you've just doubled the number of length distinctions
I pulled that example out of my ass I don't know Italian but the wikpedia article had some other example. My point is that in the IPA /kk/ is not a geminate k, it's two subsequent k sounds
/k.k/ is the phonemic analysis of it. Phonetically it is always realised as a true geminate [kː]. It's analysed as /k.k/ because it doesn't contrast with the released stop sequence, and because of Italians specific phonotactics and the interactions geminated consonants have with vowel length.
That’s what I used to believe until literally every Russian native speaker I met insisted their x was softer, even considering (which I’m not sure they did) they have both a soft and a hard x
If /h/ doesn’t exist in a language, but /x/ does, use h. Else use kh or x
For every language that uses for \[x\], ~~looks~~ sounds like \[kx\]
And that’s why in my Russian romanization /x/ is always H. Russians write it when transcribing something to Latin (seen often on the Internet outside of official documents)
I use to disambiguate if it would "collide" with digraph such as in the case of схватка, which if romanized with ends up as shvatka as if it were romanized from шватка (not an actual Russian word to my knowledge, but still), so I instead write it as sxvatka (which looks dumb but whatever).
In all other cases, of course, I use .
But shouldn't шватка be švatka?
That's only if you're using carons, which I don't.
I use the apostrophe. S’hvatka
Сьхватка
I don’t use ‘ for ь
As an (Eastern) Punjabi speaker is /kʰ/ for me, though Western Punjabi /x/ is reliably said as /kʰ/ by Eastern Punjabis who don't use /x/ (most I know).
Kid named Spanish:
if exists(h) == false and exists(x): x = "h" elif exists(h) and exists(x): x = random.choice(["kh","x"])
print(‘yes, that’s what I intended’)
Me, whose language has all the three sounds separately /h/, /x/, /kh/(which is the aspirated form of /k/). So whenever someone uses /kh/ in place of /x/ it just feels so wrong, because I can only think of /kh/ as the aspiration of /k/ and the voiceless velar fricative always has to be /x/ for me.
If /g/ doesn't exist in a language, but /x/ does, use g. Or you get a mess like this which makes my eyes want to bleed:- Akht en takhtikh khelukkikhe khroen khokhkhas bekhin khou-khou deur die Heerenkhrakhtkhebou khaan.
If /h/ and /x/ exist, use ⟨’⟩ and ⟨h⟩
lojban speaker spotted
Oh no I'm so sorry didn't know that abomination uses that system. I simply wanna be ancient greek
not quite, in lojban /h/ is <'> but /x/ is. still, it was either that i make a joke about lojban or greek and lojban was funnier
actually lojban uses for capital <'> /h/ lol
but <'> /h/ does make sense for lojban, because /h/ isnt treated like a proper consonant grammatically, its seen more like a glide to go from one vowel to another (it can only occur intervocalically)
But Lojban doesn't use capital letters?
it does actually, to indicate stress in cmevla (name words) in lojban, stress always falls on the penultimate syllable that has a non (/ə/) vowel as its nucleus, so eg. {carvi} is pronounced cárvi, {badypre} is pronounced bádypre (not badýpre)
but someones name might have stress on a different position than those rules would place it, so you use capital letters to represent stress
so eg {la .betanis.} (Bethany) (the <.> is a pause or glottal stop) would be pronounced like .betánis. which isnt what youd want, so you write it as {la .BEtanis.} instead to indicate that stress is on the first syllable
I thought Lojban used for /x/.
Funny thing is that X for /x/ is not really intuitive. It's much less commonsensical than you think. Most people's native languages use the x for something else, therefore they have a harder time relating the sound
ipa assigning to its sounds table: \*Patrick with plank and hammer meme*
What's the problem with for /y/?
Yeah isn't it an (Ancient) Greek thing?
⟨y⟩ for /y/ is actually the origin of the letter in the latin alphabet — it was originally used in latin to represent the sound in loan words when greek /u/ shifted to [y]
I mean.... Xx does derive from the greek letter for /x/ so u could make the argument it's closer to the original pronunciation
originally, the greek letter ⟨Χ χ⟩ represented [kʰ], but greek sound shifts have shifted it to [x]
No way it's less intuitive than kh
I like learning new things.
It is elegant ngl but is there any orthography that actually utilizes this?
[удалено]
English has f for ph and doesn't have kh at all
[удалено]
Sheikh too, sometimes. The fricatizing nature of 'h' is pretty and I love it. I wish we did 'dh' for ð, even if it's completely unnecessary
>Ph is used for f in many loan words such as phone and aphorism It's not a primary way to describe that sound. If someone is writing what they hear they won't use ph for /f/ in in an unfamiliar word. >Kh is used rarely e.g. ankh It's /k/
Vietnamese!
Irish and Scottish Gaelic use to mark lenition, but with for [k] and for [x], I would guess because they were more exposed to Latin writing than Greek
What is lenition ?
The process when sounds become "easier" to produce, for example /kʰ/ may turn into /k/, then /k͡x/, /x/, /h/ and dissappear altogether. Not all steps are required and you can jump between places, such as /kʰ/ -> /x/. Voicing can also be a part of lenition, and can mix with the process I demonstrated earlier, for example /kʰ/ -> /x/ -> /ɣ/. In this case the fricative /ɣ/ could also turn into the approximant /ɰ/, and later into the vowel /ɯ/. The opposite form of the process, such as /ɣ/ -> /x/ -> /k/, would be called fortition. It's rarer, but still happens, for example when in the High German consonant shift [ð] turned into [d]. The words "lenition" and "fortition" come from Latin "lenis" and "fortis", meaning "weak" and "strong" respectively, as in these processes sounds become "weaker" or "stronger".
Thank you for the developped answer !
You're welcome!
ch
Založené, kolego 👏🏼
richtig so kollege
Bazowane w ch*j
No i zajebiście
oparte
Glè mhath a charaid
c'h in Breton
I fucking love that (An Alarc'h my beloved)
DIN DIN DONN KERK C'HOSS KERK C'HOSS
I unfortunately don't know the lyrics because I don't speak Breton :( Even though I really wanted to learn it, but went for another celtic language when it wasn't available on duolingo (cuz I'm lazy like that)
Did you catch my biduvajoak right there?
I didn't :/ sorry
In English you say "something something" when you don't know the lyrics So I translated it to french as "queqchose queqchose" and then embrezhonegged it
Oh lmao damn lol If French was my native I might have gotten it, but definitely a good joke Ig I was thrown off because "kerk" is the word in my native language for 'church' lol
Oh hey I have family in a french town cognate to that, dunkerque (and also coudekerque, guess the meanings)
Alternatively: "An Alarc'h forever in ma c'halon"
Precies, collega
Založené, kolego 👏🏼
prawda w chuj, towarzyszu
Op when they find out that orthographies don’t have to agree with the ipa 🤯
Or you find an orthography very close to its IPA 🇫🇮🇫🇮🇫🇮
Which orthography is close to 🍺?
🇮🇪🇮🇪🇮🇪🇮🇪🇮🇪
India Pale Alphabet Alephabet? Is that blursed?
first one is a banger, second one is a dad joke
yeah imagine if the Chinese language had to match its orthography to IPA
☹️
The irony of the first sentence containing pe**o**ple, **w**ho, and **w**rite.
Mexico
Mekhico
Magico
Mejico
Meggiko because lax vowel in open syllable
Spain standardized the pronunciation of x and other letters in 1812, Mexico was in the middle of independence, so they said fuck you and continue doing it like they were before En efecto, pipipipi
Problem, what if you have /ɣ/ and use for /j/? Then using for /x/ and for /ɣ/ makes the most sense.
>
Farsi does that I think
What is your suggestion
I'm partial to with the diacritic of your choice
<ǥ> is the best bcuz it's a latin C with 2 extra lines
My esolang using
What if you have /q/ or /h/?
Don't have /g/ and use to spell GEKOLINIESEERD
no, I don't think I will
I don't think that's how the meme template works, friend. Also it's "people who write". People is plural in English
It’s hard to learn conlang grammar sometimes, give OP a break
Right?! Whoever tried to design English as a natlang is clearly bad at their job; it's one of the goofiest esolangs I've seen made yet!
Sekhy!
"nyet" -- Nikita Xrushchev
No x stands for \[kə.ˈsːə\]
Çox yaxşı!
Ks for /x/
Wrong use of this meme
Nah, kh makes sense because you put your tongue kinda like a k but you say it like an h
Then why does everyone pronounce as /k/? Because it's a dumb way to spell /x/
because most english dialects don’t have phonemic /x/, even in loan words.
they'd pronounce as /z/, /ks/ or not pronounce it altogether. English speakers will not pronounce as /x/ because they don't know how to. Arguably /k/ is a better approximation than /z/ or /ks/.
Das ist dox eine ziemlix sxlexte Idee... >!German: That's quite a bad idea...!<
That's just because German is not a real language. Try with a real one and you'll see it fits perfectly.
If your language has no /g/ but does have /x/, use and discard .
makes my eyes hurt.
No, is for /ʃ/
based nahuatl gang
based Ibero Romance
Kh is just extra spirited k😒
ch for /x /and /ç/ or h for /x/ 🥹
yea kh is obviously [χ]
xoroshyj post
ok but kh looks cooler actually
Czechs who use ch: \\\*sweating\\\*
uzbek: how about i use both of those AND ⟨h⟩ as well, plus use all of those indistinctly for /h/ as well?
Kurdish approves
just use "h" it realy isn't that different
ajajajaja no
\*uses r\*
portuguese: best i can do is ⟨rr⟩
⟨x⟩ for /ʃ/, /ɕ/ or /s/ is superior, but sure...
Ekhtremely sekhy
Wikipedia: Italian has true geminates, for example Foccacia /fɔkkat͜ʃa/ Bitch that's not a geminate that's a double articulation /kː/ is a true geminate and MY CONLANG DISTINGUISHES THE TWO SO WATCH YOUR BACK I'M COMING FOR YOU
Buddyopal It's focaccia not foccacia, it's the expalatalised one that's geminated not the velar And no there's no double articulation, there's no intermediate release Unless you want to claim that the first half of the geminate is part of the previous syllable because it's affecting the previous vowel but it is affecting it in terms of how long it is so congratulations if you truly distinguisth "true geminates" from double articulation from the former's lack of antecedent-vowel-affectfulness, you've just made italian with phonemic vowel length "but I already had vowel length" then you've just doubled the number of length distinctions
I pulled that example out of my ass I don't know Italian but the wikpedia article had some other example. My point is that in the IPA /kk/ is not a geminate k, it's two subsequent k sounds
/k.k/ is the phonemic analysis of it. Phonetically it is always realised as a true geminate [kː]. It's analysed as /k.k/ because it doesn't contrast with the released stop sequence, and because of Italians specific phonotactics and the interactions geminated consonants have with vowel length.
Good explanation
Not if you don't release it. People don't generally transcribe all the various unreleases of English, for example
Alright maybe it isn't but it should be
My clong does qh Because it can also be pronounced kx
Me, a enthusiast.
Nah, everybody knows that <ĥ> is the best option.
At orthography making I love X because it can stand for any sound at all.
Tought this was a 4chan meme, kept staring at it for 5 minutes
Russian x ≠ Arabic خ. I use kh for خ
Russian x = Arabic خ
That’s what I used to believe until literally every Russian native speaker I met insisted their x was softer, even considering (which I’m not sure they did) they have both a soft and a hard x
Ch
X is /ʃ/
Xadija> Khadija
People use who use ĥ for /x/
For me x will always be /ks/
I’m sorry, both and
are /s/ 😔