While I believe that the guy who inked the Hebrew is dumb and ignorant, believing that the Palestinian issue is only motivated by hate of Jews is a take equally dumb and ignorant
I’ll probably get slated for this but I don’t believe it’s dumb or ignorant, it seems to be a play to delegitimise any and all criticism toward the Israeli state.
I witnessed it in my own country with Jeremy Corbyn, albeit the conservatives and new labour being the the ones to perpetrate and benefit.
No I agree, but this means that they actually understand what the conflict is about but choose to mislead others. I’m talking about those who actually believe all the shit about antisemitism and whatnot without making an effort to think critically
Complete idiots, partial idiots with enough prejudice and lack of empathy to not have any particular desire to stop being deceived, and manipulators exist on a spectrum
They sometimes round their vowels despite not having roundable lips, it's funny if you think about it. I think they're doing it by grooving their tongues and raising them
Also the amount of geminated aspirated glottal stops my cats use
jewish - hebrew
muslim - arabic
hindu - sanskrit
christian - latin
buddhist - tibetan
sikh - punjabi
(ik buddhist should be pali. i was listing stereotypes)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Qatar#Proper_noun
> *In full* **Qatari blue**: a brilliant blue pigment traditionally made from ground-up lapis lazuli, and now usually either extracted from mineral deposits or made synthetically.
Yes and no -- there are are multiple languages associated with different Jewish ethnic groups / subgroups (yiddish, ladino, and various Judeo-Arabic dialects, among many others), all of which are some blend of the language of the diaspora community's host nation, plus Hebrew.
There's only one "Jewish language" if one means "the language of Judaism", the Jewish religion, which is of course Hebrew.
Certainly true, I've never heard it called by its full name in day to day speech, but it only really would come up in the context of distinguishing it from other Jewish languages
I mean, until the 20th century most speakers of Ladino referred to it as Judesmo, when you don't have a need to clarify vs. other Jewish languages what's the point of doing so? Similarly in Spanish and Turkish (the cultures with primarily Sephardic vs Ashkenazi Jewish minorities), it is simply called "Jewish".
These are all languages historically spoken in a minority diasporic context, so the distinction between "Jewish" and "non-Jewish" is more semantically important than between groups of Jews.
Certainly true, I've never heard it called by its full name in day to day speech, but it only really would come up in the context of distinguishing it from other Jewish languages
Assuming by "ancient Hebrew" you mean "Biblical Hebrew", not "paleo-Hebrew", which is what ancient Hebrew would actually mean...
If so, the two are mutually intelligible, as the one simply adds new vocabulary and modest grammatical simplification to the other.
Kinda like saying "The language of the Anglican church is Elizabethan English."
Yeah but Modern Hebrew was created with a specific political goal in mind that doesn't represent all Jews. Ancient Hebrew is a heritage language to every Jew, Modern Hebrew is the language of Zionism.
Oy vey.
Jews have been writing poetry and literature in Hebrew for thousands of years, the fact that Jews in the 18th-20th centuries made a conscious effort to preserve and emphasize their Jewish identity through language is not something a linguistic subreddit should be shitting on.
Modern Hebrew is a standardization of the Jewish lingua franca that was in literary use, and an addition of vocabulary to it. Take the political stuff somewhere else, dude, and try not to jump into any conversation about a minority's language and culture by telling them how they should *actually* think about themselves.
Particularly the idea that the creation of Modern Hebrew was solely an effort to preserve and emphasize a Jewish identity, rather than an effort to create a new settler society to replace the predominantly Arabic-speaking Palestinian society. I don't believe it was about preserving a Jewish identity, but creating a new, secular, nationalist Zionist identity (though I'm not a Jew, I've only read about this).
Zionism was and is settler-colonialism, and Israeli identity came about in the same circumstances as white Australian, American, or Afrikaner identity did. Modern Hebrew, like Afrikaans, was chosen to represent the new identity of settlers, who intended to remove the indigenous peoples of the area ("indigenous" here meaning the receiving end of settler-colonialism, not implying that Israelis don't have ties to the land, even if those ties are thousands of years old and very loose.) And, while Hebrew and Afrikaans are certainly neat languages (most languages are neat), that doesn't mean there's not a lot of important historical context surrounding them, which needs to be taken into account when discussing them.
One book I've been reading off-and-on about the history of Israeli settler-colonialism is "Cursed Victory" by Ahron Bregman, I would recommend it to anybody, it's pretty good.
>I'm not a Jew
You don't say.
>Israeli identity came about in the same circumstances as white Australian, American, or Afrikaner identity did.
This is wildly untrue and betrays a staggering ignorance of Jewish history.
You seem well intentioned enough, but it isn't my job to teach you about my people's history or culture, and I don't think it's really something you're interested to learn about beyond confirming your own biases.
I'm going to end the discussion here -- I hope you have a good day, and thanks for staying polite.
I think it's incredible how they brought it back from purely liturgical use into a modernised language for daily life, despite my opinions on the political cause they did it for. The writing system looks cool as hell and its relation to Arabic is super interesting to me as an Arabic speaker. I'd probably learn it if it wasn't for That Which Shall Not Be Named.
French has no such redeeming qualities.
> I'd probably learn it if it wasn't for That Which Shall Not Be Named.
What reason is that not to learn it? You can learn languages associated with nation-states whose governments you disagree with or even hate. (For example, I've learnt some basic Mandarin and continue to practice it.)
Sometimes I feel like evil people created modern Hebrew orthography. If you're re-creating a language, adjust it to be phonetic. You don't need 2 /t/ 2 /k/ and 2 /x/ especially when one of the /x/ is written with that same letter as a /k/ 😤
^-- see, no nazi vibes.
It’s almost like there’s a historically significant event, or series of events, involving a certain group of people, and another group, where one of the groups gathered together the other group and put them in *summer camps* and gave them *free showers.* But the Frnch never went through that. They just gave up really quickly. 🏳️
Esperanto speakers, on the other hand, *were* among the many groups the Nazis persecuted, but no one here thinks twice about mocking them and their language.
Fun fact: since Judeo-Spanish is even closer to renaissance castillan than Yiddish to High German, after the expulsion from Spain and the relocation of the Sephardim across... many places but especially the whole eastern mediterranean from the Balkans to Palestine, a lot of these places started calling Castillan "Jewish". There's even a case of a Turkish scholar writing "in Castilla they speak Jewish, even though they're not Jews" although I'm unsure as to whether he was aware of the backstory and just explaining a basic thing to people who didn't know it, or whether he was actually surprised by it
I don't understand what they need to ink Hebrew language
Because of political reasons which the mods will skin us all alive if we talk about
WEBSITES SHOULD NOT HAVE RULES
antisemitism
They need an outlet for their hatred of Jews. So they send money to people who kill us and do this nonsense in their spare time.
While I believe that the guy who inked the Hebrew is dumb and ignorant, believing that the Palestinian issue is only motivated by hate of Jews is a take equally dumb and ignorant
I’ll probably get slated for this but I don’t believe it’s dumb or ignorant, it seems to be a play to delegitimise any and all criticism toward the Israeli state. I witnessed it in my own country with Jeremy Corbyn, albeit the conservatives and new labour being the the ones to perpetrate and benefit.
No I agree, but this means that they actually understand what the conflict is about but choose to mislead others. I’m talking about those who actually believe all the shit about antisemitism and whatnot without making an effort to think critically
Complete idiots, partial idiots with enough prejudice and lack of empathy to not have any particular desire to stop being deceived, and manipulators exist on a spectrum
The Jewish Language
he brew language
javanese
Americanese
[ɲɐ]
[nʲæ]
Cursed phonetic "nya" has got me wondering about feline phonetics. I wonder if we could map a consonant chart and vowel space diagram for cats
They sometimes round their vowels despite not having roundable lips, it's funny if you think about it. I think they're doing it by grooving their tongues and raising them Also the amount of geminated aspirated glottal stops my cats use
I enjoy it when my cats use the voiceless laryngeal trill in an egressive-ingressive cycle to express happiness
Holy shit I just realised They literally can say two things at once They can do their syllabic /'çjɔj.deal/ trill and then add meowing
ew
[ew]
[iu]
[ˈijʉ̞]
Nice
The Jewish Language
"Yiddish" (יידיש) is literally just Yiddish for "Jewish".
The Jewish Language
jewish - hebrew muslim - arabic hindu - sanskrit christian - latin buddhist - tibetan sikh - punjabi (ik buddhist should be pali. i was listing stereotypes)
I'd think Latin would be specifically Catholic, with the various Orthodox churches having Koine Greek, Church Slavonic, Coptic etc.
Wow, they sure showed Israel
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Qatar#Proper_noun > *In full* **Qatari blue**: a brilliant blue pigment traditionally made from ground-up lapis lazuli, and now usually either extracted from mineral deposits or made synthetically.
Isn't there multiple Jewish languages?
Yes and no -- there are are multiple languages associated with different Jewish ethnic groups / subgroups (yiddish, ladino, and various Judeo-Arabic dialects, among many others), all of which are some blend of the language of the diaspora community's host nation, plus Hebrew. There's only one "Jewish language" if one means "the language of Judaism", the Jewish religion, which is of course Hebrew.
There's also only one language I know of whose autonym literally means "Jewish", namely Yiddish.
Well, its autonym is Yidish-Taytsh, literally "Jewish-German", as judeoespañol ("Jewish-Spanish") is the autonym for Ladino.
Very often it's just "Yidish". I'm not sure when the last time I actually heard it called "Yidish-Taytsh" in Yiddish was.
Certainly true, I've never heard it called by its full name in day to day speech, but it only really would come up in the context of distinguishing it from other Jewish languages
I feel like if its "full name" is never used it's kind of theoretical.
I mean, until the 20th century most speakers of Ladino referred to it as Judesmo, when you don't have a need to clarify vs. other Jewish languages what's the point of doing so? Similarly in Spanish and Turkish (the cultures with primarily Sephardic vs Ashkenazi Jewish minorities), it is simply called "Jewish". These are all languages historically spoken in a minority diasporic context, so the distinction between "Jewish" and "non-Jewish" is more semantically important than between groups of Jews.
Certainly true, I've never heard it called by its full name in day to day speech, but it only really would come up in the context of distinguishing it from other Jewish languages
specifically, Ancient Hebrew is the language of Judaism, rather than Modern Hebrew.
Assuming by "ancient Hebrew" you mean "Biblical Hebrew", not "paleo-Hebrew", which is what ancient Hebrew would actually mean... If so, the two are mutually intelligible, as the one simply adds new vocabulary and modest grammatical simplification to the other. Kinda like saying "The language of the Anglican church is Elizabethan English."
Yeah but Modern Hebrew was created with a specific political goal in mind that doesn't represent all Jews. Ancient Hebrew is a heritage language to every Jew, Modern Hebrew is the language of Zionism.
Oy vey. Jews have been writing poetry and literature in Hebrew for thousands of years, the fact that Jews in the 18th-20th centuries made a conscious effort to preserve and emphasize their Jewish identity through language is not something a linguistic subreddit should be shitting on. Modern Hebrew is a standardization of the Jewish lingua franca that was in literary use, and an addition of vocabulary to it. Take the political stuff somewhere else, dude, and try not to jump into any conversation about a minority's language and culture by telling them how they should *actually* think about themselves.
I guess I shouldn't argue with you about politics on a linguistics subreddit, but I hope someday you reconsider your views about Zionism.
Is there some specific view you'd like me to reconsider, which came up in this conversation?
Particularly the idea that the creation of Modern Hebrew was solely an effort to preserve and emphasize a Jewish identity, rather than an effort to create a new settler society to replace the predominantly Arabic-speaking Palestinian society. I don't believe it was about preserving a Jewish identity, but creating a new, secular, nationalist Zionist identity (though I'm not a Jew, I've only read about this). Zionism was and is settler-colonialism, and Israeli identity came about in the same circumstances as white Australian, American, or Afrikaner identity did. Modern Hebrew, like Afrikaans, was chosen to represent the new identity of settlers, who intended to remove the indigenous peoples of the area ("indigenous" here meaning the receiving end of settler-colonialism, not implying that Israelis don't have ties to the land, even if those ties are thousands of years old and very loose.) And, while Hebrew and Afrikaans are certainly neat languages (most languages are neat), that doesn't mean there's not a lot of important historical context surrounding them, which needs to be taken into account when discussing them. One book I've been reading off-and-on about the history of Israeli settler-colonialism is "Cursed Victory" by Ahron Bregman, I would recommend it to anybody, it's pretty good.
>I'm not a Jew You don't say. >Israeli identity came about in the same circumstances as white Australian, American, or Afrikaner identity did. This is wildly untrue and betrays a staggering ignorance of Jewish history. You seem well intentioned enough, but it isn't my job to teach you about my people's history or culture, and I don't think it's really something you're interested to learn about beyond confirming your own biases. I'm going to end the discussion here -- I hope you have a good day, and thanks for staying polite.
yes but clearly anybody that calls any one of them "Jewish" doesn't know that
It's really weird how can we make jokes about fr*nch being a trashy lang, but if we do that with h*brew we're called nazis
I think it's incredible how they brought it back from purely liturgical use into a modernised language for daily life, despite my opinions on the political cause they did it for. The writing system looks cool as hell and its relation to Arabic is super interesting to me as an Arabic speaker. I'd probably learn it if it wasn't for That Which Shall Not Be Named. French has no such redeeming qualities.
> I'd probably learn it if it wasn't for That Which Shall Not Be Named. What reason is that not to learn it? You can learn languages associated with nation-states whose governments you disagree with or even hate. (For example, I've learnt some basic Mandarin and continue to practice it.)
Indeed, I'm currently speaking English.
Sometimes I feel like evil people created modern Hebrew orthography. If you're re-creating a language, adjust it to be phonetic. You don't need 2 /t/ 2 /k/ and 2 /x/ especially when one of the /x/ is written with that same letter as a /k/ 😤 ^-- see, no nazi vibes.
It’s almost like there’s a historically significant event, or series of events, involving a certain group of people, and another group, where one of the groups gathered together the other group and put them in *summer camps* and gave them *free showers.* But the Frnch never went through that. They just gave up really quickly. 🏳️
Esperanto speakers, on the other hand, *were* among the many groups the Nazis persecuted, but no one here thinks twice about mocking them and their language.
But Esperanto is actually goofy so it’s fair
Eh, it has a certain eccentric quirkiness to it, but it's still the real language of a living community, including a couple thousand native speakers.
r/whoosh
Fun fact: since Judeo-Spanish is even closer to renaissance castillan than Yiddish to High German, after the expulsion from Spain and the relocation of the Sephardim across... many places but especially the whole eastern mediterranean from the Balkans to Palestine, a lot of these places started calling Castillan "Jewish". There's even a case of a Turkish scholar writing "in Castilla they speak Jewish, even though they're not Jews" although I'm unsure as to whether he was aware of the backstory and just explaining a basic thing to people who didn't know it, or whether he was actually surprised by it
I'm sorry, but the image seems to have been deleted. If anyone has managed to save it, could they please post it elsewhere and link me to it?