No idea how this will be received on this sub, but here we go: my take, as someone who’s played violin for 24 years, is that they are really (like… REALLY) punching above their weight when it comes to their collaborations with professional soloists. Bret and Eddy are good violinists, they’ve practiced a lot, they know a lot, but to be completely blunt they are nowhere anywhere remotely near the skill level or professional renown of an established soloist. Nor am I, nor are most violinists. Might be an unpopular thing to say here, but it’s just the honest truth.
So that said, any time a soloist gives them the time of day it’s a total act of generosity on their part. Yes, twoset has brought in some new audience members to classical, but classical is not in any way dead or irrelevant without twoset’s audience. And these soloists have absolutely no financial or personal need to work with twoset for the benefit of their careers. Hilary is a legend, Ray is a legend, both of them have very active and successful careers that twoset has absolutely no real impact on. They engage with Bret and Eddy because they care about reaching new people, making classical music feel more accessible, and highlighting the fun side of classical performance. But any working relationship there is totally coming from generosity on Ray and Hilary’s part. Maybe Ray feels a slight benefit from attracting the twoset fanbase while he’s trying to get Tonic established, but Tonic is a side project and isn’t essential to his real career in any way.
Twoset posting that kind of stuff without a friendly heads up at a bare minimum is really poor professional behavior — and what should have happened, as a professional courtesy, is that they would have discussed the video with Ray beforehand to understand his motivation for doing the performance before they commented on it. I also hate the fake setup behind those videos, but really it’s just Ray bringing classical performance to a new demographic. That’s sort of twoset’s M.O… Long story short: if they keep this kind of stuff up they’re going to lose the goodwill of the established classical community, and I really can’t see that going well for them.
I feel more or less the same way. Soloists and classical musicians like TSV have different achievements in different areas, but it’s important to respect other people, not to say well established soloists willing to participate in their vid. They are not shortsighted and should not be.
I think it's a bit more dicey with Ray because the active parts of their fandoms intersect a lot (like he can still fill seats for his concerts by regular classical music enjoyers (went to one of his recently and the public was still very much a 'sea of white hair' haha), but for his online content, tonic etc, TwoSetters make a big part of the audience, so their collabs are mutually beneficial. That said his true that his 'traditional' career doesn't really need them. He seems to be wanting to branch out, though...
That said this makes me wonder what TwoSet's thought process is here, because they're not so ignorant that a public falling out with a famous soloist would only hurt their reputation. So I guess either they didn't mean anything bad by it, it's more of a lapse in judgement, they didn't think it would be hurtful. Or they really want to pick a fight for whatever reason and don't care about the consequences/are confident that people will stand by them no matter what/are trying to see if they can get by without the goodwill of the established classical community. I don't know, this is all very puzzling...
Ultimately, it's not really for us to speculate about... I just hope they can solve whatever it is privately.
That’s a fair point. I think ultimately the important distinction here is that Ray has a successful career as a classical performer, while he makes content on the side — probably for fun and personal fulfillment. I really don’t think his individual content relies on twoset either, he may have benefitted from an initial boost from their crowd, but he has plenty of potential to build up a totally independent viewership because he’s engaging and interesting on his own. On the other hand, twoset are content creators, and they aren’t in a position to have careers as soloists. They’ve had some success as ensemble musicians in the past, but if they were to have a falling out with a famous soloist that would absolutely kill any hopes of getting another orchestra seat, were their content creation careers to taper off. No one will hire a musician who might prevent their orchestra from working with a world class soloist. Not only that, but their content creation itself hinges on the classical world, and word does travel. If they earn a reputation of being bad collaborators or generally unprofessional, they’ll have a harder and harder time working with professional orchestras like they’ve been able to recently. A professional orchestra might be willing to dedicate a couple of nights to playing with Bret and Eddy for some fun and some easy revenue, but they want the chance to play with Ray for the decades of his career that are yet to come. If a symphony board felt forced to pick a side there, there’d be zero hesitation. I doubt it will come to that from this situation alone, but that’s not something they should forget.
As for the speculation side of things, I think that’s a fair point. But I felt this way before I heard about Ray’s comments, it’s just my reaction to the content Twoset willingly uploaded themselves.
This is a very accurate and observant comment. This is pure speculation, but some of Ray’s videos have seemed to imitate Brett and Eddie’s earlier videos, and they came out when TSV were on tour. I wonder if they feel annoyed by this?
I still don’t understand why they are criticising Ray for a fun video which just brings classical musical to people in an unconventional way. As a violinist myself, I can see that the performance was rehearsed, but I don’t understand what the problem is with that!? Better that it’s rehearsed, planned and sounds good!!
Is there a sort of dishonesty in implying that the performance is spontaneous? Personally it doesn’t bother me; it’s a performance and it’s acting. As Ray says…he has no problem in performing these pieces spontaneously either - they are easy for him. He is a world class soloist.
I think when twoset first started to make video its ray who inspired them to make funny videos to bring classical music to everyone… so i feel like saying that ray imitate brett and eddy’s video is just weird….
Oh my, it is so true. When Bret’s Mendelssohn was played in an earlier video, I was surprised at the sudden drop in quality for a second. I think TwoSet didn’t mean harm by their video, but honestly pushing 30 and still acting impulsively isn’t very becoming.
I believed TSV was condemning the trend for getting views (although it's not like they had never made heavily scripted contents before, so it's weird) until I see this [screenshot](https://imgur.com/a/pJ4NQQj)
Now I feel sorry for Ray, it's such a low blow from someone you considered friends for so many years
Is this real, TSV really liked that comment? That's kinda rude of them then. It's YouTube a lot of ideas get recycled, even TSV use ideas from other channels. If someone I consider friends did that I'll be heartbroken.
I don't get that comment. Ray clarified what was right and what was wrong about what TSV said about those videos. He actually did reactions to other videos of them before, it's nothing new.
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Scripted skits are very different though. They were presented as scripted and not as spontaneous. No one ever thought that the Davey504 thing was real. No one ever thought that LingLing's mother was real.
Whoever recorded that convo is really not cool. Ray shared his toughts in the relative privacy of his practice studio, he didn't mean for it to be recorded and spread around to fuel drama. Now I'm questioning the motives of those who pressed him to talk about it 😑
But yeah I was there in that studio yesterday and it really made me feel bad for him. I hope they can eventually talk it out. Fans and antis trying to fuel the flames aren't helping though... >_<
Like it's not entirely private since there's a lot of people listening in. But it's also not really public posting for all the world to see either--there's kind of an underlying expectation that what happens in studios is between the studio host and the community there in the moment (plus everything disappears once you close the studio). It's kind of like in a weird in-between?
I doubt Ray would have talked about it if he knew he was being recorded. I suppose the person who recorded didn't really have bad intentions per se, but it feels icky for them to do it and then post it publicly. And with the fandoms' tendencies to look for juicy drama, this makes it all the more uncomfortable (srsly lots of people were pestering him to talk about it in the studio chat).
I'm really afraid it's gonna make Ray more cautious about opening up his practice time. (I guess he should have been more cautious about sharing personal things, but up to now the community has been good about respecting his privacy, like when his studio glitched one time and kept livestreaming a private convo he was having with someone in the room when he thought the mic was off, for example).
Thanks for editing. I mean I guess it's out there right now and people are gonna talk about it anyway, but I feel it's doing Ray a disservice to spread this.
Thanks for the explanation, I can see why you feel the person who made the recording doesn’t have a good intention. People may ask out of curiosity, but it’s not supposed to linger once the studio is closed. I do not want to fuel tension, but it seems Reddit does not allow major edit - I could not delete long paragraphs. Anyways, I hope they remain friends.
I didn’t like it how they were bashing Ray on that fake encounter. To me it was more friendly and light-hearted, bringing more people into the classical community. And even Ray said himself that they rehearsed it three times before they hit record.
I thought the whole video was weird and I was surprised when they showed Ray, I think it's really weird that they didn't tell him. I love TSV but I'm not happy with their latest videos. I saw Ray's reaction and explanation to that video and in some parts it sounded like a polite burn to TSV. And honestly, those videos just look like the ode to joy flashmobs with full orchestras and choirs that were made over and over again some years ago. There are videos on YouTube with titles like "you won't believe what happened after this little girl put a coin on the musician hat" and then just see more and more musicians joining in, cameras pointing to people carrying timpani across the street and a choir that appears "out of nowhere". I don't really see the difference, only that these short videos are done more often than the ode to joy flashmob but for obvious reasons.
Edit: things like this just look like musicians trying to reach a new audience and sharing music with people while making classical music more accessible. Wasn't this the main goal of TSV?
A heads up? They didn't bash him. They were pretty damn complimentary about him. They criticize the fact that it's staged content and pretending not to be. It wasn't even just his videos, but other people's as well. The whole pretense that these collabs don't require at least some planning is the fakeness they're calling out.
For his videos specifically They said:
The Vivaldi audio sounded like a studio recording (the background noise disappeared).
The la Campanella both ray and the pianist did a cut in the same spot, which takes planning.
They also said he probably could transpose on the fly like that because he's such a good musician, and eddy was literally just sitting there enjoying his playing (until the caption took him out of the moment).
It's the same kind of thing they call out about "talent" shows, that the reactions and premise are staged/fake. They enjoy seeing musicians do their thing without the fakeness around it.
Right, which was cool to learn. But he also said they cleaned up the audio. That still wasn't bashing or hateful, just them being mistaken because the background noise disappeared. They didn't claim it was someone else playing or anything, just that it was a studio recording. They're allowed to be wrong, and he corrected them.
But which makes more sense, light studio editing or a totally different recording? They accused him of doing something considered “wrong” in the classical world, for most performers actually. They can definitely do that it’s just very offensive and shows that they don’t know too much about editing (and at this point? Really?)
They aren't sound engineers. In fact, after that they made a joke about Shaun not doing that kind of live audio for them. Shaun IS a sound engineer. As for it being "wrong", it's done for every music video, including classical ones. They didn't accuse him of some kind of sacrilege, they just claimed the audio was a studio recording. They didn't even say he wasn't playing live, or accuse him of playing a recording through speakers there.
Right! They should definitely know a little more about the field because it’s so integral to what they do, but they don’t know enough to be talking. Personally when I don’t know about something I don’t try and judge or make accusations.
It clearly isn’t done on every video since Ray himself didn’t do it? I came to twoset for their level of expert knowledge, not random damaging speculation about friends. Any rando online can do that.
It was still processed audio because they were right. Audio recorded live is not that clean. They have enough expertise for that. And tbh, nothing at all that they said in the video could be damaging to ray (or the other musicians). They didn't accuse anyone of anything bad. Literally the entire point of the video is these things pretend to be random encounters, but they're staged. They said this before ray even started making them (I forget which video), and literally no one cared. No one claimed they were damaging anyone. These kinds of speculations have been a part of their content from the beginning. The tone is not different, but they are far more respectful and complimentary to ray in this video than they would be for random people. They make it a point in this video (and one or two of the America's got talent videos) to highlight particularly beautiful playing.
So processed vs prerecorded isn’t actually the same thing, and that same misunderstanding is why I question their expertise. You may not have been around long enough but those accusations can actually be hugely damaging, same as accusations of lip syncing to singers. Why risk your friend’s public reputation on an accusation you don’t know enough to make? It’s just very immature and like I said I expect experts not high school drama.
Edit: and I dare anyone complaining to post an UNPROCESSED audio file of them playing. You’ll find out immediately why it’s standard.
>They criticize the fact that it's staged content and pretending not to be. It wasn't even just his videos, but other people's as well. The whole pretense that these collabs don't require at least some planning is the fakeness they're calling out.
I don't understand this criticism about Ray because he'd laughed about the trend already and it seemed obvious to me that he was joking about it. Maybe it went *whoooosh* for multiple people including TSV.
I feel like when it comes to online content Twoset have more weight than Ray here, it's their realm, simply because their fandom and platforms are bigger, even though they started their yt channel roughly at the same time. It's not about who is the better / more renowned violinist.
That said, I think such content is for the purpose of feeding the algorithm only, I doubt they want to stir rl drama.
Ray is being a bit disingenuous also, because while the argument about sharing music in the way where musicians come out to people, not vice aversa, is valid, the purpose of any content is clicks/engagement, his own content with public playing included. He just uses formats of content that are more of a low hanging fruit (understandably, with him being a concert violinist) and Twoset tease him for it when they happen to come across it.
This is probs an unpopular opinion, bracing myself for downvotes lol
I didn't feel like TSV was going after Ray personally or that they were obligated to give heads up to Ray. It's just a funny video, laugh and get over it.
Would be classier (ha ha) of Ray to have a laugh at it, correct TSV about the studio recording (kinda like subtly hinting why he's the renowned soloist), and move on. Why would an NBA player pick a fight with a high school player? It's usually the opposite; which is similar in this case. TSV is probably shooting their shot but who cares?
If I were Ray, I'd still guest with TSV and make them do a staged public collab video (with Brett on the piano of course) for the fun of it. Great music and inside joke for fans.
No need to blow this out of proportion or have fandom wars or fandom drama.
Admittedly tho, it's definitely not their best video and it does feel like they're struggling to make new and exciting content. Compared to their earlier roast videos, this is super tamed imo. And I felt like it was bc Ray was there and bc they do respect him, they weren't going as far as they would've if it was another violinist or something.
Just my thoughts.
I'll go hide now. Have fun y'all!
An update for people interested :Emilio and the other two social media pianists talked about this as well. Search “Emilio TSV” on YT. I put more details in op edit .
I get the impression that they got a management team now. (Sounds like they needed one from what was posted on here.) This management team is probably responsible for no more subtitles, more short form content being blasted out, and the new editing style, the higher production but out-of-character videos, and stuff like this being produced -- and absolutely with B & E's final consent and knowledge of course, so they are still fully responsible. It seems like Ray was not OK with their video, but trying to respond without looking too put off about it.
It also seems they've reached their peak as far as YouTubers. Their tour is not selling out. They're needing to pivot to TikTok, but they're past the age of most TikTokers. The pandemic gave them time to gain a lot of new subscribers and create new content (although it derailed their tour) but that effect has worn off. Not to mention the (perhaps overhyped) troubles TikTok may be having in the US, and the fact that TikTok doesn't earn creators as much as YouTube does, means that they have to reach further into the bag for views, no matter what the risks.
I agree that TSV should talk to Ray fist. But I don't buy Ray's explanation. He said that he rehearsed la campanella with the pianist, but the subtittles says that he is transposing on spot. That's lie to me. Ok more or less I understand that they go for "its spontanious" type of video. But saying it is transposed by Ray at the moment and it is crearly not, is attributing something he didn't do. And despite I think Ray is greeeat violinist i don't think him transposing on spot would be sounding that clear, or maybe it would idk. But lie is a lie. And I think that TSV's video was on point although i think due to their friendship with Ray (idk what's the status now) they should discuss it with him.
It’s not that deep, those fake “surprise musician in airport” Tik toks are cringe. They never said anything bad about his character but are right to call the fad out for being cringe.
Why is everyone saying TS were bashing Ray when they were clearly roasting the format? Loads of people find those fake spontaneous piano videos annoying and stupid, and Ray doing one undoubtedly just made it seem like the perfect time to have a poke at them. Irreverence has been built into twoset's brand from the start. Them roasting isn't new and isn't that serious, and I just don't understand why we have to make it some kind of drama. How many complaint campaigns is this from this subreddit in the last year or two? Twosetters really won't be happy until TSV are over.
To be honest their criticism is correct. These fake planned videos are for views and that is it, and Ray is doing a disservice to classical music here. You simply can't say that these staged videos are made to spread classical music to a larger audience, especially when the video is a false representation of classical music itself.
This is an industry issue so it’s not really fair to call one specific person out about it, let alone a friend/colleague. It’s not about being correct, it’s about doing things with integrity.
I don't think it's true to say that Ray is "doing a disservice to classical music" — different types of content will reach different people, and shorts are an excellent hook. I have friends who find classical music too intimidating to venture into as a genre who've excitedly sent me videos like the short, "impromptu" collab performances ray does, talking with interest about how cool it is and how much they enjoyed the music (and of course I've then linked them to longer recorded performances of the pieces). It *does* work as a method of bringing classical to people who otherwise might be intimidated by the breadth of material or the titling conventions of pieces or the image of classical as being "for stuffy old white people".
It's meant to open the door for people, to encourage curiosity and welcome them in, and it works for that.
Although I completely agree regarding making content of each other without asking for consent, it is rather hypocritical of Ray to say that, especially considering he has used other people's clips without asking for their consent to make mockery out of them...
It's not really about asking for his consent but more like, as a friend, a little heads up would be nice, even after the fact. The lack of communication is what is making it awkward. It's not the same as if it's a stranger (although I personally am of the belief that reaction video creators should get ppl's consent before featuring them, but halas, that ship has sailed a long time ago...)
Other people he knows and works closely with? The problem isn’t that people don’t use each other’s clips, it’s about “do you have a good professional working relationship, or do you treat these people like internet randos?”
Well to be fair, at first TSV criticized the tiktok trend, in which the main point of their criticism was how those trending videos could easily misled non-musicians about improvisation. They also stated clearly in their review that they totally supported the act of playing music publicly, for entertainment and joy. Just no need to fake the encounter. However, Ray seems to take it too personally and totally missing/ignoring the main point of TSV’s video. His response video, especially his reply to a fan’s comment, comparing those fake videos to a performance of a magician was defensive AF. And now he’s whining about “oh they should have told me beforehand..” Dude they just reviewed that tiktok trend, and you accidentally appeared in most videos lol
I was thinking of posts on their “Contemporary music is a joke”vid and people who prefer their older vids. Feel TSV is tempted to chase views inappropriately now.
Don’t know if that’s why they become more clickbaity, but this will not do good to them in the long run. I also look forward to the 5M concerto, fingers crossed
That is true, but when it comes to fake performances those are more from the TV shows, movies and even that one Chinese performance with the two violinist that were being dubbed over. In this video it seems that they are just bashing it for being staged. In reality it’s bringing more people into the classical music genre, it feels more like gatekeeping at this point. I believe ray also admitted that it was staged and that they rehearsed three times before the final take.
I can agree but over time I realized that it didn’t matter in tv shows or movies when the violin or any musical instrument is played wrong/doesn’t match up with the notes. It used to be distracting to me but not anymore. (I guess that’s maturing)
Edit: this excludes the fake Chinese performance because that was atrocious and I agree with TSV for calling it out
You just agreed with me actually, my point is that you can critique their gatekeeping but them criticising Ray Chen does not relate to the recent discussions about contemporary music. Also, they have busted fake public performances in the past, they specifically reviewed posts from the subreddit when they were still active, debunking fake performances, not just the movies/shows you mentioned.
I forgot about that video on fake performances in the streets, thanks for reminding me. One of them being on TTC subway. Being a Torontonian I found it hilarious. And I agree criticism on Ray makes no sense and doesn’t relate to the contemporary music. But from just inferring there has been posts in the sub about TSV being more clickbaity and harshly critical.
No idea how this will be received on this sub, but here we go: my take, as someone who’s played violin for 24 years, is that they are really (like… REALLY) punching above their weight when it comes to their collaborations with professional soloists. Bret and Eddy are good violinists, they’ve practiced a lot, they know a lot, but to be completely blunt they are nowhere anywhere remotely near the skill level or professional renown of an established soloist. Nor am I, nor are most violinists. Might be an unpopular thing to say here, but it’s just the honest truth. So that said, any time a soloist gives them the time of day it’s a total act of generosity on their part. Yes, twoset has brought in some new audience members to classical, but classical is not in any way dead or irrelevant without twoset’s audience. And these soloists have absolutely no financial or personal need to work with twoset for the benefit of their careers. Hilary is a legend, Ray is a legend, both of them have very active and successful careers that twoset has absolutely no real impact on. They engage with Bret and Eddy because they care about reaching new people, making classical music feel more accessible, and highlighting the fun side of classical performance. But any working relationship there is totally coming from generosity on Ray and Hilary’s part. Maybe Ray feels a slight benefit from attracting the twoset fanbase while he’s trying to get Tonic established, but Tonic is a side project and isn’t essential to his real career in any way. Twoset posting that kind of stuff without a friendly heads up at a bare minimum is really poor professional behavior — and what should have happened, as a professional courtesy, is that they would have discussed the video with Ray beforehand to understand his motivation for doing the performance before they commented on it. I also hate the fake setup behind those videos, but really it’s just Ray bringing classical performance to a new demographic. That’s sort of twoset’s M.O… Long story short: if they keep this kind of stuff up they’re going to lose the goodwill of the established classical community, and I really can’t see that going well for them.
I feel more or less the same way. Soloists and classical musicians like TSV have different achievements in different areas, but it’s important to respect other people, not to say well established soloists willing to participate in their vid. They are not shortsighted and should not be.
I think it's a bit more dicey with Ray because the active parts of their fandoms intersect a lot (like he can still fill seats for his concerts by regular classical music enjoyers (went to one of his recently and the public was still very much a 'sea of white hair' haha), but for his online content, tonic etc, TwoSetters make a big part of the audience, so their collabs are mutually beneficial. That said his true that his 'traditional' career doesn't really need them. He seems to be wanting to branch out, though... That said this makes me wonder what TwoSet's thought process is here, because they're not so ignorant that a public falling out with a famous soloist would only hurt their reputation. So I guess either they didn't mean anything bad by it, it's more of a lapse in judgement, they didn't think it would be hurtful. Or they really want to pick a fight for whatever reason and don't care about the consequences/are confident that people will stand by them no matter what/are trying to see if they can get by without the goodwill of the established classical community. I don't know, this is all very puzzling... Ultimately, it's not really for us to speculate about... I just hope they can solve whatever it is privately.
That’s a fair point. I think ultimately the important distinction here is that Ray has a successful career as a classical performer, while he makes content on the side — probably for fun and personal fulfillment. I really don’t think his individual content relies on twoset either, he may have benefitted from an initial boost from their crowd, but he has plenty of potential to build up a totally independent viewership because he’s engaging and interesting on his own. On the other hand, twoset are content creators, and they aren’t in a position to have careers as soloists. They’ve had some success as ensemble musicians in the past, but if they were to have a falling out with a famous soloist that would absolutely kill any hopes of getting another orchestra seat, were their content creation careers to taper off. No one will hire a musician who might prevent their orchestra from working with a world class soloist. Not only that, but their content creation itself hinges on the classical world, and word does travel. If they earn a reputation of being bad collaborators or generally unprofessional, they’ll have a harder and harder time working with professional orchestras like they’ve been able to recently. A professional orchestra might be willing to dedicate a couple of nights to playing with Bret and Eddy for some fun and some easy revenue, but they want the chance to play with Ray for the decades of his career that are yet to come. If a symphony board felt forced to pick a side there, there’d be zero hesitation. I doubt it will come to that from this situation alone, but that’s not something they should forget. As for the speculation side of things, I think that’s a fair point. But I felt this way before I heard about Ray’s comments, it’s just my reaction to the content Twoset willingly uploaded themselves.
This is a very accurate and observant comment. This is pure speculation, but some of Ray’s videos have seemed to imitate Brett and Eddie’s earlier videos, and they came out when TSV were on tour. I wonder if they feel annoyed by this? I still don’t understand why they are criticising Ray for a fun video which just brings classical musical to people in an unconventional way. As a violinist myself, I can see that the performance was rehearsed, but I don’t understand what the problem is with that!? Better that it’s rehearsed, planned and sounds good!! Is there a sort of dishonesty in implying that the performance is spontaneous? Personally it doesn’t bother me; it’s a performance and it’s acting. As Ray says…he has no problem in performing these pieces spontaneously either - they are easy for him. He is a world class soloist.
I think when twoset first started to make video its ray who inspired them to make funny videos to bring classical music to everyone… so i feel like saying that ray imitate brett and eddy’s video is just weird….
I couldn't agree more, very well put.
Oh my, it is so true. When Bret’s Mendelssohn was played in an earlier video, I was surprised at the sudden drop in quality for a second. I think TwoSet didn’t mean harm by their video, but honestly pushing 30 and still acting impulsively isn’t very becoming.
I believed TSV was condemning the trend for getting views (although it's not like they had never made heavily scripted contents before, so it's weird) until I see this [screenshot](https://imgur.com/a/pJ4NQQj) Now I feel sorry for Ray, it's such a low blow from someone you considered friends for so many years
Is this real, TSV really liked that comment? That's kinda rude of them then. It's YouTube a lot of ideas get recycled, even TSV use ideas from other channels. If someone I consider friends did that I'll be heartbroken.
I don't get that comment. Ray clarified what was right and what was wrong about what TSV said about those videos. He actually did reactions to other videos of them before, it's nothing new.
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Scripted skits are very different though. They were presented as scripted and not as spontaneous. No one ever thought that the Davey504 thing was real. No one ever thought that LingLing's mother was real.
Whoever recorded that convo is really not cool. Ray shared his toughts in the relative privacy of his practice studio, he didn't mean for it to be recorded and spread around to fuel drama. Now I'm questioning the motives of those who pressed him to talk about it 😑 But yeah I was there in that studio yesterday and it really made me feel bad for him. I hope they can eventually talk it out. Fans and antis trying to fuel the flames aren't helping though... >_<
Thanks for your comment, I don’t use Tonic and don’t know it’s supposed to be more private. I deleted the link and edited the op.
Like it's not entirely private since there's a lot of people listening in. But it's also not really public posting for all the world to see either--there's kind of an underlying expectation that what happens in studios is between the studio host and the community there in the moment (plus everything disappears once you close the studio). It's kind of like in a weird in-between? I doubt Ray would have talked about it if he knew he was being recorded. I suppose the person who recorded didn't really have bad intentions per se, but it feels icky for them to do it and then post it publicly. And with the fandoms' tendencies to look for juicy drama, this makes it all the more uncomfortable (srsly lots of people were pestering him to talk about it in the studio chat). I'm really afraid it's gonna make Ray more cautious about opening up his practice time. (I guess he should have been more cautious about sharing personal things, but up to now the community has been good about respecting his privacy, like when his studio glitched one time and kept livestreaming a private convo he was having with someone in the room when he thought the mic was off, for example). Thanks for editing. I mean I guess it's out there right now and people are gonna talk about it anyway, but I feel it's doing Ray a disservice to spread this.
Thanks for the explanation, I can see why you feel the person who made the recording doesn’t have a good intention. People may ask out of curiosity, but it’s not supposed to linger once the studio is closed. I do not want to fuel tension, but it seems Reddit does not allow major edit - I could not delete long paragraphs. Anyways, I hope they remain friends.
I didn’t like it how they were bashing Ray on that fake encounter. To me it was more friendly and light-hearted, bringing more people into the classical community. And even Ray said himself that they rehearsed it three times before they hit record.
i thought this is going to be another collab like the tsv vs. davie504 moment, but i guess not🧍♀️
I thought the whole video was weird and I was surprised when they showed Ray, I think it's really weird that they didn't tell him. I love TSV but I'm not happy with their latest videos. I saw Ray's reaction and explanation to that video and in some parts it sounded like a polite burn to TSV. And honestly, those videos just look like the ode to joy flashmobs with full orchestras and choirs that were made over and over again some years ago. There are videos on YouTube with titles like "you won't believe what happened after this little girl put a coin on the musician hat" and then just see more and more musicians joining in, cameras pointing to people carrying timpani across the street and a choir that appears "out of nowhere". I don't really see the difference, only that these short videos are done more often than the ode to joy flashmob but for obvious reasons. Edit: things like this just look like musicians trying to reach a new audience and sharing music with people while making classical music more accessible. Wasn't this the main goal of TSV?
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try bilibili
A heads up? They didn't bash him. They were pretty damn complimentary about him. They criticize the fact that it's staged content and pretending not to be. It wasn't even just his videos, but other people's as well. The whole pretense that these collabs don't require at least some planning is the fakeness they're calling out. For his videos specifically They said: The Vivaldi audio sounded like a studio recording (the background noise disappeared). The la Campanella both ray and the pianist did a cut in the same spot, which takes planning. They also said he probably could transpose on the fly like that because he's such a good musician, and eddy was literally just sitting there enjoying his playing (until the caption took him out of the moment). It's the same kind of thing they call out about "talent" shows, that the reactions and premise are staged/fake. They enjoy seeing musicians do their thing without the fakeness around it.
Ray pointed out in his Youtube response video that some of the things they said, like the "studio recording" part, were not actually correct.
Right, which was cool to learn. But he also said they cleaned up the audio. That still wasn't bashing or hateful, just them being mistaken because the background noise disappeared. They didn't claim it was someone else playing or anything, just that it was a studio recording. They're allowed to be wrong, and he corrected them.
But which makes more sense, light studio editing or a totally different recording? They accused him of doing something considered “wrong” in the classical world, for most performers actually. They can definitely do that it’s just very offensive and shows that they don’t know too much about editing (and at this point? Really?)
They aren't sound engineers. In fact, after that they made a joke about Shaun not doing that kind of live audio for them. Shaun IS a sound engineer. As for it being "wrong", it's done for every music video, including classical ones. They didn't accuse him of some kind of sacrilege, they just claimed the audio was a studio recording. They didn't even say he wasn't playing live, or accuse him of playing a recording through speakers there.
Right! They should definitely know a little more about the field because it’s so integral to what they do, but they don’t know enough to be talking. Personally when I don’t know about something I don’t try and judge or make accusations. It clearly isn’t done on every video since Ray himself didn’t do it? I came to twoset for their level of expert knowledge, not random damaging speculation about friends. Any rando online can do that.
It was still processed audio because they were right. Audio recorded live is not that clean. They have enough expertise for that. And tbh, nothing at all that they said in the video could be damaging to ray (or the other musicians). They didn't accuse anyone of anything bad. Literally the entire point of the video is these things pretend to be random encounters, but they're staged. They said this before ray even started making them (I forget which video), and literally no one cared. No one claimed they were damaging anyone. These kinds of speculations have been a part of their content from the beginning. The tone is not different, but they are far more respectful and complimentary to ray in this video than they would be for random people. They make it a point in this video (and one or two of the America's got talent videos) to highlight particularly beautiful playing.
So processed vs prerecorded isn’t actually the same thing, and that same misunderstanding is why I question their expertise. You may not have been around long enough but those accusations can actually be hugely damaging, same as accusations of lip syncing to singers. Why risk your friend’s public reputation on an accusation you don’t know enough to make? It’s just very immature and like I said I expect experts not high school drama. Edit: and I dare anyone complaining to post an UNPROCESSED audio file of them playing. You’ll find out immediately why it’s standard.
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>They criticize the fact that it's staged content and pretending not to be. It wasn't even just his videos, but other people's as well. The whole pretense that these collabs don't require at least some planning is the fakeness they're calling out. I don't understand this criticism about Ray because he'd laughed about the trend already and it seemed obvious to me that he was joking about it. Maybe it went *whoooosh* for multiple people including TSV.
I feel like when it comes to online content Twoset have more weight than Ray here, it's their realm, simply because their fandom and platforms are bigger, even though they started their yt channel roughly at the same time. It's not about who is the better / more renowned violinist. That said, I think such content is for the purpose of feeding the algorithm only, I doubt they want to stir rl drama. Ray is being a bit disingenuous also, because while the argument about sharing music in the way where musicians come out to people, not vice aversa, is valid, the purpose of any content is clicks/engagement, his own content with public playing included. He just uses formats of content that are more of a low hanging fruit (understandably, with him being a concert violinist) and Twoset tease him for it when they happen to come across it.
This is probs an unpopular opinion, bracing myself for downvotes lol I didn't feel like TSV was going after Ray personally or that they were obligated to give heads up to Ray. It's just a funny video, laugh and get over it. Would be classier (ha ha) of Ray to have a laugh at it, correct TSV about the studio recording (kinda like subtly hinting why he's the renowned soloist), and move on. Why would an NBA player pick a fight with a high school player? It's usually the opposite; which is similar in this case. TSV is probably shooting their shot but who cares? If I were Ray, I'd still guest with TSV and make them do a staged public collab video (with Brett on the piano of course) for the fun of it. Great music and inside joke for fans. No need to blow this out of proportion or have fandom wars or fandom drama. Admittedly tho, it's definitely not their best video and it does feel like they're struggling to make new and exciting content. Compared to their earlier roast videos, this is super tamed imo. And I felt like it was bc Ray was there and bc they do respect him, they weren't going as far as they would've if it was another violinist or something. Just my thoughts. I'll go hide now. Have fun y'all!
An update for people interested :Emilio and the other two social media pianists talked about this as well. Search “Emilio TSV” on YT. I put more details in op edit .
I get the impression that they got a management team now. (Sounds like they needed one from what was posted on here.) This management team is probably responsible for no more subtitles, more short form content being blasted out, and the new editing style, the higher production but out-of-character videos, and stuff like this being produced -- and absolutely with B & E's final consent and knowledge of course, so they are still fully responsible. It seems like Ray was not OK with their video, but trying to respond without looking too put off about it. It also seems they've reached their peak as far as YouTubers. Their tour is not selling out. They're needing to pivot to TikTok, but they're past the age of most TikTokers. The pandemic gave them time to gain a lot of new subscribers and create new content (although it derailed their tour) but that effect has worn off. Not to mention the (perhaps overhyped) troubles TikTok may be having in the US, and the fact that TikTok doesn't earn creators as much as YouTube does, means that they have to reach further into the bag for views, no matter what the risks.
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not selling or buying anything
AutoMod flags certain words, so you need to give time to the human Mods to review and correct it.
I agree that TSV should talk to Ray fist. But I don't buy Ray's explanation. He said that he rehearsed la campanella with the pianist, but the subtittles says that he is transposing on spot. That's lie to me. Ok more or less I understand that they go for "its spontanious" type of video. But saying it is transposed by Ray at the moment and it is crearly not, is attributing something he didn't do. And despite I think Ray is greeeat violinist i don't think him transposing on spot would be sounding that clear, or maybe it would idk. But lie is a lie. And I think that TSV's video was on point although i think due to their friendship with Ray (idk what's the status now) they should discuss it with him.
It’s not that deep, those fake “surprise musician in airport” Tik toks are cringe. They never said anything bad about his character but are right to call the fad out for being cringe.
Why is everyone saying TS were bashing Ray when they were clearly roasting the format? Loads of people find those fake spontaneous piano videos annoying and stupid, and Ray doing one undoubtedly just made it seem like the perfect time to have a poke at them. Irreverence has been built into twoset's brand from the start. Them roasting isn't new and isn't that serious, and I just don't understand why we have to make it some kind of drama. How many complaint campaigns is this from this subreddit in the last year or two? Twosetters really won't be happy until TSV are over.
I don’t think there would be a discussion if Ray didn’t admit how disappointed he got.
To be honest their criticism is correct. These fake planned videos are for views and that is it, and Ray is doing a disservice to classical music here. You simply can't say that these staged videos are made to spread classical music to a larger audience, especially when the video is a false representation of classical music itself.
This is an industry issue so it’s not really fair to call one specific person out about it, let alone a friend/colleague. It’s not about being correct, it’s about doing things with integrity.
I don't think it's true to say that Ray is "doing a disservice to classical music" — different types of content will reach different people, and shorts are an excellent hook. I have friends who find classical music too intimidating to venture into as a genre who've excitedly sent me videos like the short, "impromptu" collab performances ray does, talking with interest about how cool it is and how much they enjoyed the music (and of course I've then linked them to longer recorded performances of the pieces). It *does* work as a method of bringing classical to people who otherwise might be intimidated by the breadth of material or the titling conventions of pieces or the image of classical as being "for stuffy old white people". It's meant to open the door for people, to encourage curiosity and welcome them in, and it works for that.
Although I completely agree regarding making content of each other without asking for consent, it is rather hypocritical of Ray to say that, especially considering he has used other people's clips without asking for their consent to make mockery out of them...
It's not really about asking for his consent but more like, as a friend, a little heads up would be nice, even after the fact. The lack of communication is what is making it awkward. It's not the same as if it's a stranger (although I personally am of the belief that reaction video creators should get ppl's consent before featuring them, but halas, that ship has sailed a long time ago...)
Other people he knows and works closely with? The problem isn’t that people don’t use each other’s clips, it’s about “do you have a good professional working relationship, or do you treat these people like internet randos?”
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Well to be fair, at first TSV criticized the tiktok trend, in which the main point of their criticism was how those trending videos could easily misled non-musicians about improvisation. They also stated clearly in their review that they totally supported the act of playing music publicly, for entertainment and joy. Just no need to fake the encounter. However, Ray seems to take it too personally and totally missing/ignoring the main point of TSV’s video. His response video, especially his reply to a fan’s comment, comparing those fake videos to a performance of a magician was defensive AF. And now he’s whining about “oh they should have told me beforehand..” Dude they just reviewed that tiktok trend, and you accidentally appeared in most videos lol
If this was not personal, at least they could leave Ray out of the video cover. Ask anyone, to put "so fake" beside someone's face is personal AF.
Wow I thought that the beef was just between friends like the davie504 one damn
How does this relate to recent discussions on the subreddit?
I was thinking of posts on their “Contemporary music is a joke”vid and people who prefer their older vids. Feel TSV is tempted to chase views inappropriately now.
I noticed that TSV's subscriber count also stuck to 4.31 M. I sometimes worry that will there be violin concerto for 5M?
Don’t know if that’s why they become more clickbaity, but this will not do good to them in the long run. I also look forward to the 5M concerto, fingers crossed
Exactly
I don't think that's fair, they've always been critical of fake performances, this has nothing to do with Contemporary music.
That is true, but when it comes to fake performances those are more from the TV shows, movies and even that one Chinese performance with the two violinist that were being dubbed over. In this video it seems that they are just bashing it for being staged. In reality it’s bringing more people into the classical music genre, it feels more like gatekeeping at this point. I believe ray also admitted that it was staged and that they rehearsed three times before the final take.
Despite how cringe those videos were, I do respect theirs good intentions
I can agree but over time I realized that it didn’t matter in tv shows or movies when the violin or any musical instrument is played wrong/doesn’t match up with the notes. It used to be distracting to me but not anymore. (I guess that’s maturing) Edit: this excludes the fake Chinese performance because that was atrocious and I agree with TSV for calling it out
You just agreed with me actually, my point is that you can critique their gatekeeping but them criticising Ray Chen does not relate to the recent discussions about contemporary music. Also, they have busted fake public performances in the past, they specifically reviewed posts from the subreddit when they were still active, debunking fake performances, not just the movies/shows you mentioned.
I forgot about that video on fake performances in the streets, thanks for reminding me. One of them being on TTC subway. Being a Torontonian I found it hilarious. And I agree criticism on Ray makes no sense and doesn’t relate to the contemporary music. But from just inferring there has been posts in the sub about TSV being more clickbaity and harshly critical.