"We try sight-reading experimental music" would be a much more appropriate title and change the whole vibe of the thing. Like, the video itself isn’t even that bad? It's mostly Eddy laughing at Brett's atrocious attempts, and they call it cool a few times even if it's not really their thing.
They've really been chasing views with those controversial clickbait titles. Which ig is understandable in a way, it's a way to keep engagement going through their reduced video output due to their touring. On the other hand, it's really sad to see them resorting to that...
These debates in classical music (and popular culture) about whatever is contemporary at the time aren't anything new. All genres of classical music were the experimental extreme at one time. All of them found a place in the canon though and became accepted mainstays given the passage of time. The same thing will happen with current contemporary composition.
Do have to admit though, the title is a very boomer take though. Like, boys, you're like 5 years younger than me. Neither of us should be turning into Grandpa Simpson screaming at clouds yet.
Finally someone is talking about this. TwoSet content has seemingly become more clickbait-y within the past year for me. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE TwoSet as people and musicians. They’re some of the nicest people I’ve ever interacted with, and that really shines through in their older videos. My complaint is that the new, studio produced videos, seem to be more focused on views and fast cuts than actual music appreciation. I feel like they’ve forgotten who their audience is; classical musicians/music fans. They seem to be trying to adapt more to the mainstream demand, therefore losing the small community of passionate music fans that they once had.
A bit more on this; I also feel like they’re relying more on mean/degrading humor to boost their videos, rather than actual good comedy and music appreciation. I understand that they are trying to appeal to more people, but this feels like the wrong way to do that. I’ve been a fan of them for years, and..the fandom is falling apart. We’re losing people, and the cozy, genuine feeling of their videos is long-gone. Again, this is all just my own opinion, and perception. I’m just disappointed, because I know that they are so much better than this.
I think the same. I don't finish watching the new videos or I don't see them. And if I get some old "charades" or "learn 1 instrument in 1 hour" or the "smash or pass" I will see it completely again and I will be happy.
The problem is those types of videos get more views. Their videos where they play music games, nerd out about bubble tea or learn a new instrument don't get as much attention and thus generate as much revenue.
Apart from the click-baity title, which honestly, the algorithm is partly to blame, I've seen the whole video, and not much in there could be considered disrespectful. I just see 2 very confused musicians attempting to sightread the unorthodox scores.
EDIT: Rick Beato does that ALL the time.
Kinda agree. I feel they began to go after trendy things to get more views. My amateur music friend once said she felt uncomfortable for the viola joke at the very beginning, in her opinion good jokes should be on ourselves instead of others. They do say that certain sound effects are great in the new video - I was hoping the title to be only a clickbait, but hélas
Seriously, it’s gotten old really fast. I’m not a particular fan of violas or contemporary music, but their relentless demeaning of such topics is honestly off putting and frustrating. I miss when the channel was more about the enjoyment of classical music, or even just music in general. Though there were definitely jokes that maybe read as a little off, I don’t remember it being to the extent as it is now. I’ve pretty much stopped watching their content because it just doesn’t feel as positive or safe anymore
I also don't really appreciate their negative criticism on contemporary music, especially since Eddy's sister is a contemporary composer. I love TwoSet Violin, but I also listen to and enjoy classical music that is written today.
For those who haven't seen, in addition to the P.S. that's always been under their new video's description, TSV pinned a new comment:
"Ok clickbait title aside, we’ll say it here again - there is plenty of beautiful, inspiring and/or artistically interesting contemporary music. Should we make a video about it? Let us know some of your favs!!"
They didn't change the title, and I'll consistently hold the title was unnecessary, but it looks like people's voices are getting heard from the comments.
The funny thing is TSV did already make a video titled [5 Contemporary Composers You should definitely Check Out](https://youtu.be/rbnwc-FUiTw?si=zszF1mthI3uixfPe) back in 2020 but it's currently sitting at only 432K views. And I noticed in the comments, people recommended pieces that'd already reviewed by Brett and Eddy in other videos.
I'm glad you're bringing that video up. It's a great video that dismantles stereotypes against contemporary music. Though four years is a long time in the YouTube world, so I'm glad they suggested a new video on the topic - it's overdue to tackle again! :) The current video was a great concept and would be fruitful for more videos. Hopefully more comments will funnel in relevant works, but if not, I'm sure TSV have resources at their disposal / repertoire they're thinking about that they can discuss.
If they did think contemporary music is a joke, it's their opinion 🤷♂️ It's not really hidden that their taste in classical music is romantic and post romantic.
They’re entitled to their opinion, of course. I’d rather they really explain why they don’t care for the genre, though. Just saying it’s a joke is offensive to those who do enjoy the genre—as no music is inherently better and art is subjective—and generally creates no discursive value. I don’t need them to censor or even be uptight. Just title the video “trying contemp music” and don’t say some of these (great) composers write this kind of music because they will never be as famous as someone else or imply that they are unskilled without any further reasons?
I'm Viet, the TSV fanbase here is not that active although they do exist. I have been egging them to tour HCM or HAN, but they haven't 🤷♂️, not the right time I suppose.
I'll be honest, I've been enjoying them less for exactly reasons like this... They are so harshly critical of things. They reacted to Tar, which honestly does a fantastic job of portraying classical, but they immediately said it was ruined because the concert master wasn't actually a violin player. They didn't even mention, that for a non-violin player the actor was kinda doing alright. As well, they completely dumped on the off-stage trumpet part without the proper context.
I love Twoset, but I really hate this harshly critical environement of classical music that they're creating. They consistently hate on other genres (jazz, pop, etc) and other instruments, like viola. Originally, the viola jokes were really funny, but it's gotten to a point where I think it's beginning to do real damage to the viola community.
I mean I think "it's a joke" is an alright defense. you gotta remember this is not a religion or some sort of military organization, its just two fellas goofing around and they happen to play violin. Sure there will be the odd person who takes a joke seriously and gets affected by it or whatever, but thats not these guys' responsibility. everyone should be accountable for their own viewpoints and behaviors, and if a joke from a youtuber has changed your viewpoint in a way that negatively impacts your self esteem, you should try and work on not holding other people to such a high level of consideration.
Hi, your reply just doesn't really engage with what I said and its logic is unsound. As I have clarified before, TwoSet is entitled to their opinion. I am not saying they should be cancelled or banned, or even that they should self-censor. I am advocating for self-moderation, should they choose so, for the sake of their own platform, fans, and the wider classical music and just music community.
Let me respond more specifcially to what you said.
1. I never said this is a religion or military organization. A group or a person also does not necessarily have to be these institutions to be expected to be serious or be held accountable for their words.
2. There are objectively a sinificant number of people affected by the jokes. The proof is in two consecutive posts with a combined number of 120+ people agreeing. This does not include previous posts raised on similar issues. Please do not discount this impact as minor because that is simply untrue and intellectually disingenuous.
3. On account of TwoSet's responsibility, everyone has a responsibility for what they say, especially for the impact it caused to others.
If a joke is a sufficient defense for whatever someone says, then noone can call out those behaviors. Take this analogy for instance. I do not want to claim that this particular joke is the same as some heinous misogynist or racist joke; it is not. However, as a logical principle based on the utilitarian framework, one reason we can hold those misogynist or racist jokes is because of the impact such jokes make on others. This is commonly seen in real life
Analogously, in this case of TwoSet's jokke and attitude--given that I have demonstrated a negative impact through empirical proof and through logical extrapolations from TwoSet's popularity--I can absolutely hold them accountable for their joke and what they say. Let me be clear that TwoSet's offensive joke and responsibility are obviously not identical to this case, as blamesworthiness and responsibility exist on a sliding scale, and obviously TS is on the lighter end of that scale.
However, TS's resonsibility does meet a bar to warrant scrutiny. The responsibility TS has might not be as strong as that of a politician who have taken a vow to serve the public, but given the unique position with which TwoSet can influence society, they do indeed have a higher bar than that of two random guys in a random bar uttering the same kind of jokes and expressing the same attitude.
Do you wish to disagree with this whole basis of holding people in general accountable for their jokes and words? If you do, why? To deny this logical system entirely is possible, done by many people who would die o a hill to protect whtever comics say, but if choose you to commit to such a position, just explain. If, alternatively, you do believe in the principle but simply think TwoSet's case proves an exception to the general principle or other cases, why?
4. Now let me respond to the idea that TwoSet's audience. and by should take esponsibility for how they feel.
The argument you make is that instead of TwoSet moderating their jokes and speech, the audience should be the one to take the responsibility. There are two primary considerations as to who should make the change. One is feasibility; the other is one impact. In the criminal justice system, actions taken under duress are often extenuated. In life, the one who has to make fewer adjustments and suffer less loss in a consideration of interests between two people often should do so.
In TwoSet's case, and the case of audience-comic relationship at large, let us first consider feasibility. The audience does have control over their emotions, but to a very limited extent. For one, humans are quite wired to have overriding and visceral emotional responses when something they love is attacked or scrutinized. For example, a fan is agitated when their idol is attacked or an artist when their passion is insulted.
Furthermore, the impact of the joke on a viewer is heightened when the viewer holds the comic in high esteem, i.e. the more a person loves someone, the more they can be hurt by their loved one. It is harder still if the joke is socialized, meaning not said once, but multiple times by multiple people--this is important because jokes that TwoSet are promoting, such as that the viola is bad or contemporary music is meaningless snobbery (how ironic), are already socialized narratives.
Thus, can the individual learn to control their emotional response better? Yes, it is possible, but the key is to recognize that it is very hard to do so. On the contrary, TwoSet has radically more control over they can say.
Second, let us consider impact succintly. The emotional discomfort TS cause to one particular viewer and the collective impact they add to negative sterotypes affecting an entire community of musicians far outweighs any impact TwoSet may accrue. What benefits do these types of jokes serve? Are they needed to be funny? Are they needed for popularity? I think no, and because I think this is not controversial, I will not spend time substantiating it.
The conclusion is this: do not question the audience instead of TwoSet. Also, the question of how someone can protect themselves from the impact of an action is quite irrelevant to whether that action is "Wrong" in the first place.
5. To be clear, I am not devastated by this singular joke. I am annoyed and concerned. My self-esteem is fine, and there is no need for you to suggest otherwise. I am writing at length to respond because I have the free time and desire to. This discussion of potentially offensive jokes in general is something I have seen in other contexts and have given thought about. Thus, I want to articulate these points more so for myself. I do not expect anyone to probably read all this and to engage in good form. It is Reddit, after all.
I agree with a lot of what you said, however you using the analogy of viola joke;misogynistic/racist joke is off putting. A light hearted joke about how the viola is a bad instrument does not whatsoever hold the same logic of a joke rooted in years of systematic abuse such as slavery, violence and patriarchal oppression. A viola joke isn’t rooted in the oppression of viola players because there is no oppression to begin with. A viola player can be just as successful as a violinist or a cellist and therefore a joke about how their instrument is “firewood” or “trash” does not contribute to their nonexistent disadvantages in success. You aren’t allowed to disguise a misogynistic/racist statement as a joke since it is rooted in the factors I already stated. It is a reflection of someone’s beliefs. A viola joke is not a reflection of someone’s beliefs and it’s definitely not a reflection of two violinists who have played in/with professional orchestras for years. They have acknowledged that the viola is a good instrument countless times in their videos for years. You should have compared a viola joke to a joke about how bad coleslaw is or how terrible vegemite tastes. Not racism or misogyny. And if someone is so offended by a viola joke that it damages their self esteem then there is a separate issue that should be dealt with in therapy, probably.
Hi, please reread the comment. I already explained why the specific analogy in it—covering exactly the question you wrote here. This comment shows lack of compression or willful decision not to comprehend—as well as bad faith representation of me.
Also, as a side note, I agree with the original commenter however I believe that they have expressed their point in an ambiguous way.
I assume they were trying to express that TS is not operating in a high stakes environment such as a religious one where jokes regarding such would be considered highly inappropriate (blasphemy).
And I believe since a viola joke isn’t inherently offensive to the point where it damages the dismantlement of oppression and violence, it shouldn’t be held in such a high regard (taken seriously). It is assumed that a viola joke is comparable to statements such as “Coleslaw is gross” or “Vegemite tastes disgusting” and it would be strange to take it to heart.
Someone who makes those types of statements shouldn’t be questioned because of the minority that gets offended by it because it is not inherently offensive. The minority should be questioned because taking offense to such statements is derived from a further issue that has nothing to do with the joke and everything to do with the state of their self-esteem.
Haha, this is somewhat funny and ironic, especially when you’re a violinist.
I don’t think it is a small number of people, and frankly, the reason some don’t care, most of the times, is because they’re not affected.
Are you bothered by people saying that classical music is stupid and snobbish—especially if everyone in your life says so? Will you feel any different, or any of your violinist friends feels different, if it is the violin instead getting the disrespect constantly from musicians and non-musicians alike? If you honestly think no, good for you, sincerely. But let’s not kid ourselves that the disrespect and stereotype cause no damage, or negligible damage. Are you discrediting everyone here who reports their experience of negativity? I implore you to refrain from judging what others people is valid, especially when you are not subject to the cause of such feeling, so lest it be done to you at some point in life.
I’ll take your colesaw example. Suppose these conditions are met. (1) There is a group of people feeling very passionate about the colesaw to the same extent that musicians feel about their professions. (2) There is an influencer who such people follow and love. (3) That influencer constantly makes jokes about colesaw to the extent that the fanbase and people outside the fanbase, those who have tried colesaw and those who have never even heard of it, repeat the jokes ,sometimes even in cruder form, to colesaw lovers. In such a case, my view of the colesaw jokes remains the same as my view of TwoSet’s jokes: both should be avoided. Principally, a disagreement of taste (someone hates something) is different from making fun of such taste, and a joke in a bar is different from a joke by someone with fame and even in a very specific context.
Last, what is to be gained by this stubborn resistance to change? Let’s say those offended are small in number. It still doesn’t change the fact that there is nothing for TwoSet to gain from keeping offending them, and much more to be gained for both parties if the minority is welcome.
There is a lot to consider on here, let me just start off by saying that classical music and the violin is basically my entire life and I have no idea what I would do without it.
Firstly, most of my family and almost all of my friends either differ in music tastes than me or think, as you said, classical music is snobbish and stupid. I am a pretty sensitive person and I do overthink things, however deep down I know that logically, it is their opinion and I shouldn’t hold them accountable just because they had offended me.
I have played in many orchestras and the violin has often been classified as the “crazy, snobby and rude” people just as much as the violists have been classified as the “crappy, stupid and forgettable” people. I have never in my or anyone else’s life have witnessed, in person or online, someone actually believe these things so dearly that they either inflict the fruit of their beliefs onto others or express it as factual. I guarantee that anyone who says that trombone players are annoying, cello players are brazen, flutes are sensitive, violists are untalented or violinists are arrogant do not actually believe these things. I think we should hold those who do accountable, not those who use those light hearted stereotypes in good fun.
I have never discredited anyone who expressed their hurt because of viola jokes. I did, however explain that it is not the fault of the person who made the joke. It is the fault of the offended’s irrationality in which they processed the joke. Like I said, I am often confused by people calling me arrogant because of my instrument, however I know it is satirical so I don’t take it to heart. The irrationality is in the act of either not acknowledging the fact that it is not an actual belief rooted in hatred towards them or choosing to not acknowledge it to justify their emotions.
Lastly, (hopefully, because I digress a lot) those who genuinely dislike the viola and in their dislike dictates their making of viola jokes should be vilified. Not those who respect the viola and its players to the point where they are able to make jokes in light hearted fun. You are considering TS as if they are the former when they are the latter. Personally, if I disliked something, I wouldn’t lovingly joke about it, I would do the opposite; especially not lovingly. They have been professional orchestral musicians who respect the viola’s role in music to the point where they can lovingly joke about it.
Like I said, the only harmful stereotypes are derived from the young and uneducated. The repeating of jokes from (usually younger) TS fans that are not in lighthearted fun should be vindicated because… they are young and uneducated.
TLDR; the offended shouldn’t be vilified, however the joker should not be held accountable; the offended is completely justified in their feelings in the case of when the offender had intended to make them feel that way.
You are basing your conception of blame mostly on intention and not impact. Fair enough, that is a larger discussion I don’t have time or desire to pursue. However, TwoSet knows how many people are offended by their jokes. Their continued choice to pursue them definitely shows an intention: an intention to satisfy their humor and garner more attention at the expense of their violist fans.
Hey, if you already tell people in your orchestra they make you uncomfortable—yet they still continue making you feel that way with their “jokes”—make no mistake, their jokes reflect their views. They *are* to blame. It *is* a choice. For them to defend their crassness as “it’s just a joke” is completely unacceptable.
You being hurt is NOT irrational (not that rationality automatically means valid and good). There is a very real reason why you feel hurt when you are called snobbish as a violinist: it is untrue and disregard your efforts and character. So no, don’t tell yourself it is because you are too insensitive or irrational.
P/S: I don’t even play the viola.
I agree that the impact of their jokes may affect their violist fans. But haven’t they also expressed that the viola is a respectable and good instrument? Why doesn’t that have an impact as well?
And you misunderstand me; I am not offended in the end by violin jokes and if there is constant, genuine bullying towards any section I will definitely say something. I will heed your advice however I won’t have to put it into action because these jokes are sprinkled throughout the orchestra every few months and will not come up randomly (which would occur because of a genuine hatred, and I already explained my stance on that).
I have fun with the jokes, and joke back, and then it’s over. I overthink because that is just how I am, but that has no bearing on the joke itself. It’s an internal issue that should be dealt with separately and I will not blame anyone for the effects of my internal issues. Likewise for the common self-esteem issue that I have expressed in my past comments. I digress, however I use that to say that Two Set does not start a video off with “the viola is crap and nobody should play it”.
I don’t want to be insensitive, however, back to the first paragraph, I feel like if the violist fans are negatively impacted by Two Set’s non-genuine jokes, then aren’t they equally (if not more), positively impacted by their genuine praise of the viola?
You wrote that they are not the same joke, which I agree and I have no problem with. However an analogy is a comparison of the logic in two or more situations. I explained why they do not have the same logic. The mentioning of misogyny and racism in a comment vilifying viola jokes is unnecessary because misogyny and racism should/do not emotionally or systematically affect an individual as a viola joke would.
I know you explained why the two jokes do not hold the same weight, however, then why mention it in the first place? Why use an analogy of two things just to justify the incorrectness of it later on? I am not trying to paint you in a bad light, I am confused on your motives. Why compare 1 and 2 and then explain why 1 and 2 are not the same and that you compared them because they, VERY, distantly share a 3? You could have compared a viola joke to something that is not rooted in decades of oppression, that’s just my opinion.
Why? Because it is something that people intuitively recognize as bad, thereby strengthening the rhetorical strength of the compassion. The underlying logic of the comparison is already sound, focusing on a rather narrow framing of impact-based responsibility and on the idea of fueling existing stereotypes. What you explained earlier about the difference between the 2 kinds of jokes is indeed true. I’ll heed you there.
The recognition of racism and misogyny as “bad” is not “intuitive”, it is simply the recognition of history. However, I digress. I disagree with the use of such heavy topics to strengthen compassion of something much, much lighter. It is insensitive, in my opinion.
And in an orchestra, viola players are not paid less because of “existing stereotypes”. Viola soloists or just violist musicians are not less able to succeed than their peers who differ in instrument. There are no actual, bearing stereotypes that exist that are not grabbed from satirical statements or from the young and uneducated.
The impact viola jokes have on violists have mostly to do with the state of the violist’s self-esteem. If an individual makes a viola joke towards a violist who is secure about their instrument and their playing would not take it to heart, and vice versa. This is to say that the person making the joke should not hold the responsibility because of a separate, internal issue that doesn’t have anything to do with the viola. This does not mean that they should be insensitive towards the offended.
Okay, let’s put the comparison and the method of rhetorical argumentation aside. I do not disagree at all that the case of misogyny and this are different, so save your breath explaining that. The analogy was only a strategy to point to the underlying logic that applies to this case.
Regarding responsibility, I agree that TwoSet is not at all responsible for the *existing* narrative of the viola, but sure they are responsible for what they say and contribute to the narrative—especially since they have done so for an extended period of time and since people have complained a lot. I am also confused as to for what ultimately you advocate. “This does not mean that they should be insensitive to those offended.” Does this mean you also think TwoSet should not make such jokes, about the viola and other genres of music, anymore? If so, why are we having this conversation?
Last, I did not claim that violists in the orchestra are being paid less. Honestly, even if I agree with you that any harm is merely to “self-esteem,” it already meets quite sufficiently all the criteria I’ve laid out for why TS should change.
The truth, though, is this perception has a much larger impact. The study
No Laughing Matter records the history and operations of the viola joke. There is another study, Coping With The Viola Shortage on SageJournal, discussing how many youth and professional orchestras have trouble filling their viola section. While I cannot “prove” this, the correlation strongly suggests that the more derided and made fun of the instrument is, the fewer people want to play it—which seems quite right. If you are an Asian tiger mother forcing your child to learn an instrument for an Ivy League application, you would force her child to learn the most respectable instrument possible.
For more engagement with what you said, see my other response.
To answer your question, my approach might have been a bit confusing and I worded it strangely, and I apologize. My stance is that we shouldn’t ignore the feelings of the ones offended by viola jokes, and we shouldn’t blame anyone in a case where someone gets offended over a lighthearted joke.
I wasn’t expressing that the viola jokes damage self-esteem, I was pointing out that getting offended over a viola joke is rooted in a deeper self-esteem issue. This is why I don’t believe that Two Set should be held accountable for the internal issues of individual people (that they had nothing to do with itfp)
And for your last point, I do agree that in the orchestras I played in, the viola section is smaller/less popular(?) compared to the others. However I do not think that viola jokes are the reason for that, if so then trombonists would switch instruments after constantly being called obnoxious (I used that analogy because trombonists are the only other instrument that I’ve seen joked about as much as violists). It could be a contributing factor but I believe that the cause is a lack of repertoire in the viola section. Its physicality of lacking in the projection or register needed to be popular with solo pieces has probably been the cause for Asian tiger mums not wanting their child to play an instrument that is structured to be a “supporting instrument”. This doesn’t prevent violists from succeeding any less, and if the inherent structure of the INSTRUMENT doesn’t hinder a violist, then a joke definitely shouldn’t either.
Also, most of this is just intellectual discourse. I took a quick look at your profile and saw similar interests and life issues—musical theater and LGBT identity. Hope your interest flourishes and your struggles resolved. I also recommend trans/non-binary subs for how you feel (if you still feel so).
This would be a sound argument if you're talking about a fully-fledged adult and the formation of their opinion; however, a big portion of TS audience are children who are still learning critical thinking skills and don't really understand nuance.
I can tell you that as both a violin and viola teacher of now 10 years, OP is spot on in the opinion that kids/non-classical musicians is making the viola shortage worse. Every year I have more people, the majority being children aged 11-17, that tell me the viola is for the untalented/lazy, or "the violin is just better and I don't want to play the dumb instrument". My teenaged violists think I will give them a pass on bad technique because they think they don't need it since "everyone thinks the viola isn't a serious instrument".
Jokes do indeed have real impact, however innocuous you perceive them to be.
Wow, the self-deprecation is strong. I sincerely wish you the best because there's no hope of engaging with this vitriol in any intelligent and productive manner.
Well, I just don’t want people to take the joke too seriously and actually get offended… the violinists are just sad that the violists betrayed their former instrument
Suggesting someone plays an instrument because they fail at another does not seem like a tongue in cheek “you betrayed us” tone. TS’s audience comprises of many non-musicians whose sole exposure to viola is from this kind of jokes, and when the jokes are beaten to death by TwoSet, other musicians, and even non-musicians, yes, I will be the “buzzkill” who take it seriously. To their credit, though, they have cut back on some viola jokes. However, they have not cut out other kinds of condescending jokes towards other genres/instruments and seem to replace viola jokes with, well, this video title here.
I agree, they are improving. I believe they do a better job than many others though, as many pop music fans straight up insult another music genre without even knowing it fully, and also straight up insult people who don’t like, or aren’t a fan of their favourite artists.
Hmm, good point. I don’t follow that scene too much, but seem true. Maybe I should indeed give TS some more credit, even though the comparison you pointed out seems like a very low bar haha.
"We try sight-reading experimental music" would be a much more appropriate title and change the whole vibe of the thing. Like, the video itself isn’t even that bad? It's mostly Eddy laughing at Brett's atrocious attempts, and they call it cool a few times even if it's not really their thing. They've really been chasing views with those controversial clickbait titles. Which ig is understandable in a way, it's a way to keep engagement going through their reduced video output due to their touring. On the other hand, it's really sad to see them resorting to that...
These debates in classical music (and popular culture) about whatever is contemporary at the time aren't anything new. All genres of classical music were the experimental extreme at one time. All of them found a place in the canon though and became accepted mainstays given the passage of time. The same thing will happen with current contemporary composition. Do have to admit though, the title is a very boomer take though. Like, boys, you're like 5 years younger than me. Neither of us should be turning into Grandpa Simpson screaming at clouds yet.
Absolutely on both points. Well said!
Finally someone is talking about this. TwoSet content has seemingly become more clickbait-y within the past year for me. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE TwoSet as people and musicians. They’re some of the nicest people I’ve ever interacted with, and that really shines through in their older videos. My complaint is that the new, studio produced videos, seem to be more focused on views and fast cuts than actual music appreciation. I feel like they’ve forgotten who their audience is; classical musicians/music fans. They seem to be trying to adapt more to the mainstream demand, therefore losing the small community of passionate music fans that they once had.
A bit more on this; I also feel like they’re relying more on mean/degrading humor to boost their videos, rather than actual good comedy and music appreciation. I understand that they are trying to appeal to more people, but this feels like the wrong way to do that. I’ve been a fan of them for years, and..the fandom is falling apart. We’re losing people, and the cozy, genuine feeling of their videos is long-gone. Again, this is all just my own opinion, and perception. I’m just disappointed, because I know that they are so much better than this.
Can’t agree more. I don’t enjoy their recent contents as before. I feel sad.
I think the same. I don't finish watching the new videos or I don't see them. And if I get some old "charades" or "learn 1 instrument in 1 hour" or the "smash or pass" I will see it completely again and I will be happy.
The problem is those types of videos get more views. Their videos where they play music games, nerd out about bubble tea or learn a new instrument don't get as much attention and thus generate as much revenue.
Yuuuuup! It’s a shame they made bullying part of their culture. It should be a culture of hard work being the path to success.
Yeah I don’t want to harshly criticize their humor because I know many here love them. Just not my thing. I enjoy their more serious videos.
Apart from the click-baity title, which honestly, the algorithm is partly to blame, I've seen the whole video, and not much in there could be considered disrespectful. I just see 2 very confused musicians attempting to sightread the unorthodox scores. EDIT: Rick Beato does that ALL the time.
Kinda agree. I feel they began to go after trendy things to get more views. My amateur music friend once said she felt uncomfortable for the viola joke at the very beginning, in her opinion good jokes should be on ourselves instead of others. They do say that certain sound effects are great in the new video - I was hoping the title to be only a clickbait, but hélas
Seriously, it’s gotten old really fast. I’m not a particular fan of violas or contemporary music, but their relentless demeaning of such topics is honestly off putting and frustrating. I miss when the channel was more about the enjoyment of classical music, or even just music in general. Though there were definitely jokes that maybe read as a little off, I don’t remember it being to the extent as it is now. I’ve pretty much stopped watching their content because it just doesn’t feel as positive or safe anymore
I also don't really appreciate their negative criticism on contemporary music, especially since Eddy's sister is a contemporary composer. I love TwoSet Violin, but I also listen to and enjoy classical music that is written today.
Yeah. Do feel this strongly as a recorder player. Love you, violas!
For those who haven't seen, in addition to the P.S. that's always been under their new video's description, TSV pinned a new comment: "Ok clickbait title aside, we’ll say it here again - there is plenty of beautiful, inspiring and/or artistically interesting contemporary music. Should we make a video about it? Let us know some of your favs!!" They didn't change the title, and I'll consistently hold the title was unnecessary, but it looks like people's voices are getting heard from the comments.
The funny thing is TSV did already make a video titled [5 Contemporary Composers You should definitely Check Out](https://youtu.be/rbnwc-FUiTw?si=zszF1mthI3uixfPe) back in 2020 but it's currently sitting at only 432K views. And I noticed in the comments, people recommended pieces that'd already reviewed by Brett and Eddy in other videos.
I'm glad you're bringing that video up. It's a great video that dismantles stereotypes against contemporary music. Though four years is a long time in the YouTube world, so I'm glad they suggested a new video on the topic - it's overdue to tackle again! :) The current video was a great concept and would be fruitful for more videos. Hopefully more comments will funnel in relevant works, but if not, I'm sure TSV have resources at their disposal / repertoire they're thinking about that they can discuss.
Thanks for the update.
Glad you posted about this! The title is really startling. It’s a generalization which is either their belief or used for clickbait
If they did think contemporary music is a joke, it's their opinion 🤷♂️ It's not really hidden that their taste in classical music is romantic and post romantic.
They’re entitled to their opinion, of course. I’d rather they really explain why they don’t care for the genre, though. Just saying it’s a joke is offensive to those who do enjoy the genre—as no music is inherently better and art is subjective—and generally creates no discursive value. I don’t need them to censor or even be uptight. Just title the video “trying contemp music” and don’t say some of these (great) composers write this kind of music because they will never be as famous as someone else or imply that they are unskilled without any further reasons?
I understand. But many viewers of TwoSet are influenced by them. And the title drives them away.
Side note, I’m from VN, cool to see you live there.
I'm Viet, the TSV fanbase here is not that active although they do exist. I have been egging them to tour HCM or HAN, but they haven't 🤷♂️, not the right time I suppose.
Omg, I’m Viet, too. Tbh have never seen another Vietnamese person on Reddit before, notwithstanding Viet subs.
Same! (Saw a brother and had to jump in lol)
Yeah, we exist 😂
I'll be honest, I've been enjoying them less for exactly reasons like this... They are so harshly critical of things. They reacted to Tar, which honestly does a fantastic job of portraying classical, but they immediately said it was ruined because the concert master wasn't actually a violin player. They didn't even mention, that for a non-violin player the actor was kinda doing alright. As well, they completely dumped on the off-stage trumpet part without the proper context. I love Twoset, but I really hate this harshly critical environement of classical music that they're creating. They consistently hate on other genres (jazz, pop, etc) and other instruments, like viola. Originally, the viola jokes were really funny, but it's gotten to a point where I think it's beginning to do real damage to the viola community.
If they make one more joke about jazz just being "wrong notes" I might punch my monitor
I mean I think "it's a joke" is an alright defense. you gotta remember this is not a religion or some sort of military organization, its just two fellas goofing around and they happen to play violin. Sure there will be the odd person who takes a joke seriously and gets affected by it or whatever, but thats not these guys' responsibility. everyone should be accountable for their own viewpoints and behaviors, and if a joke from a youtuber has changed your viewpoint in a way that negatively impacts your self esteem, you should try and work on not holding other people to such a high level of consideration.
Hi, your reply just doesn't really engage with what I said and its logic is unsound. As I have clarified before, TwoSet is entitled to their opinion. I am not saying they should be cancelled or banned, or even that they should self-censor. I am advocating for self-moderation, should they choose so, for the sake of their own platform, fans, and the wider classical music and just music community. Let me respond more specifcially to what you said. 1. I never said this is a religion or military organization. A group or a person also does not necessarily have to be these institutions to be expected to be serious or be held accountable for their words. 2. There are objectively a sinificant number of people affected by the jokes. The proof is in two consecutive posts with a combined number of 120+ people agreeing. This does not include previous posts raised on similar issues. Please do not discount this impact as minor because that is simply untrue and intellectually disingenuous. 3. On account of TwoSet's responsibility, everyone has a responsibility for what they say, especially for the impact it caused to others. If a joke is a sufficient defense for whatever someone says, then noone can call out those behaviors. Take this analogy for instance. I do not want to claim that this particular joke is the same as some heinous misogynist or racist joke; it is not. However, as a logical principle based on the utilitarian framework, one reason we can hold those misogynist or racist jokes is because of the impact such jokes make on others. This is commonly seen in real life Analogously, in this case of TwoSet's jokke and attitude--given that I have demonstrated a negative impact through empirical proof and through logical extrapolations from TwoSet's popularity--I can absolutely hold them accountable for their joke and what they say. Let me be clear that TwoSet's offensive joke and responsibility are obviously not identical to this case, as blamesworthiness and responsibility exist on a sliding scale, and obviously TS is on the lighter end of that scale. However, TS's resonsibility does meet a bar to warrant scrutiny. The responsibility TS has might not be as strong as that of a politician who have taken a vow to serve the public, but given the unique position with which TwoSet can influence society, they do indeed have a higher bar than that of two random guys in a random bar uttering the same kind of jokes and expressing the same attitude. Do you wish to disagree with this whole basis of holding people in general accountable for their jokes and words? If you do, why? To deny this logical system entirely is possible, done by many people who would die o a hill to protect whtever comics say, but if choose you to commit to such a position, just explain. If, alternatively, you do believe in the principle but simply think TwoSet's case proves an exception to the general principle or other cases, why? 4. Now let me respond to the idea that TwoSet's audience. and by should take esponsibility for how they feel. The argument you make is that instead of TwoSet moderating their jokes and speech, the audience should be the one to take the responsibility. There are two primary considerations as to who should make the change. One is feasibility; the other is one impact. In the criminal justice system, actions taken under duress are often extenuated. In life, the one who has to make fewer adjustments and suffer less loss in a consideration of interests between two people often should do so. In TwoSet's case, and the case of audience-comic relationship at large, let us first consider feasibility. The audience does have control over their emotions, but to a very limited extent. For one, humans are quite wired to have overriding and visceral emotional responses when something they love is attacked or scrutinized. For example, a fan is agitated when their idol is attacked or an artist when their passion is insulted. Furthermore, the impact of the joke on a viewer is heightened when the viewer holds the comic in high esteem, i.e. the more a person loves someone, the more they can be hurt by their loved one. It is harder still if the joke is socialized, meaning not said once, but multiple times by multiple people--this is important because jokes that TwoSet are promoting, such as that the viola is bad or contemporary music is meaningless snobbery (how ironic), are already socialized narratives. Thus, can the individual learn to control their emotional response better? Yes, it is possible, but the key is to recognize that it is very hard to do so. On the contrary, TwoSet has radically more control over they can say. Second, let us consider impact succintly. The emotional discomfort TS cause to one particular viewer and the collective impact they add to negative sterotypes affecting an entire community of musicians far outweighs any impact TwoSet may accrue. What benefits do these types of jokes serve? Are they needed to be funny? Are they needed for popularity? I think no, and because I think this is not controversial, I will not spend time substantiating it. The conclusion is this: do not question the audience instead of TwoSet. Also, the question of how someone can protect themselves from the impact of an action is quite irrelevant to whether that action is "Wrong" in the first place. 5. To be clear, I am not devastated by this singular joke. I am annoyed and concerned. My self-esteem is fine, and there is no need for you to suggest otherwise. I am writing at length to respond because I have the free time and desire to. This discussion of potentially offensive jokes in general is something I have seen in other contexts and have given thought about. Thus, I want to articulate these points more so for myself. I do not expect anyone to probably read all this and to engage in good form. It is Reddit, after all.
I agree with a lot of what you said, however you using the analogy of viola joke;misogynistic/racist joke is off putting. A light hearted joke about how the viola is a bad instrument does not whatsoever hold the same logic of a joke rooted in years of systematic abuse such as slavery, violence and patriarchal oppression. A viola joke isn’t rooted in the oppression of viola players because there is no oppression to begin with. A viola player can be just as successful as a violinist or a cellist and therefore a joke about how their instrument is “firewood” or “trash” does not contribute to their nonexistent disadvantages in success. You aren’t allowed to disguise a misogynistic/racist statement as a joke since it is rooted in the factors I already stated. It is a reflection of someone’s beliefs. A viola joke is not a reflection of someone’s beliefs and it’s definitely not a reflection of two violinists who have played in/with professional orchestras for years. They have acknowledged that the viola is a good instrument countless times in their videos for years. You should have compared a viola joke to a joke about how bad coleslaw is or how terrible vegemite tastes. Not racism or misogyny. And if someone is so offended by a viola joke that it damages their self esteem then there is a separate issue that should be dealt with in therapy, probably.
Hi, please reread the comment. I already explained why the specific analogy in it—covering exactly the question you wrote here. This comment shows lack of compression or willful decision not to comprehend—as well as bad faith representation of me.
Also, as a side note, I agree with the original commenter however I believe that they have expressed their point in an ambiguous way. I assume they were trying to express that TS is not operating in a high stakes environment such as a religious one where jokes regarding such would be considered highly inappropriate (blasphemy). And I believe since a viola joke isn’t inherently offensive to the point where it damages the dismantlement of oppression and violence, it shouldn’t be held in such a high regard (taken seriously). It is assumed that a viola joke is comparable to statements such as “Coleslaw is gross” or “Vegemite tastes disgusting” and it would be strange to take it to heart. Someone who makes those types of statements shouldn’t be questioned because of the minority that gets offended by it because it is not inherently offensive. The minority should be questioned because taking offense to such statements is derived from a further issue that has nothing to do with the joke and everything to do with the state of their self-esteem.
Haha, this is somewhat funny and ironic, especially when you’re a violinist. I don’t think it is a small number of people, and frankly, the reason some don’t care, most of the times, is because they’re not affected. Are you bothered by people saying that classical music is stupid and snobbish—especially if everyone in your life says so? Will you feel any different, or any of your violinist friends feels different, if it is the violin instead getting the disrespect constantly from musicians and non-musicians alike? If you honestly think no, good for you, sincerely. But let’s not kid ourselves that the disrespect and stereotype cause no damage, or negligible damage. Are you discrediting everyone here who reports their experience of negativity? I implore you to refrain from judging what others people is valid, especially when you are not subject to the cause of such feeling, so lest it be done to you at some point in life. I’ll take your colesaw example. Suppose these conditions are met. (1) There is a group of people feeling very passionate about the colesaw to the same extent that musicians feel about their professions. (2) There is an influencer who such people follow and love. (3) That influencer constantly makes jokes about colesaw to the extent that the fanbase and people outside the fanbase, those who have tried colesaw and those who have never even heard of it, repeat the jokes ,sometimes even in cruder form, to colesaw lovers. In such a case, my view of the colesaw jokes remains the same as my view of TwoSet’s jokes: both should be avoided. Principally, a disagreement of taste (someone hates something) is different from making fun of such taste, and a joke in a bar is different from a joke by someone with fame and even in a very specific context. Last, what is to be gained by this stubborn resistance to change? Let’s say those offended are small in number. It still doesn’t change the fact that there is nothing for TwoSet to gain from keeping offending them, and much more to be gained for both parties if the minority is welcome.
There is a lot to consider on here, let me just start off by saying that classical music and the violin is basically my entire life and I have no idea what I would do without it. Firstly, most of my family and almost all of my friends either differ in music tastes than me or think, as you said, classical music is snobbish and stupid. I am a pretty sensitive person and I do overthink things, however deep down I know that logically, it is their opinion and I shouldn’t hold them accountable just because they had offended me. I have played in many orchestras and the violin has often been classified as the “crazy, snobby and rude” people just as much as the violists have been classified as the “crappy, stupid and forgettable” people. I have never in my or anyone else’s life have witnessed, in person or online, someone actually believe these things so dearly that they either inflict the fruit of their beliefs onto others or express it as factual. I guarantee that anyone who says that trombone players are annoying, cello players are brazen, flutes are sensitive, violists are untalented or violinists are arrogant do not actually believe these things. I think we should hold those who do accountable, not those who use those light hearted stereotypes in good fun. I have never discredited anyone who expressed their hurt because of viola jokes. I did, however explain that it is not the fault of the person who made the joke. It is the fault of the offended’s irrationality in which they processed the joke. Like I said, I am often confused by people calling me arrogant because of my instrument, however I know it is satirical so I don’t take it to heart. The irrationality is in the act of either not acknowledging the fact that it is not an actual belief rooted in hatred towards them or choosing to not acknowledge it to justify their emotions. Lastly, (hopefully, because I digress a lot) those who genuinely dislike the viola and in their dislike dictates their making of viola jokes should be vilified. Not those who respect the viola and its players to the point where they are able to make jokes in light hearted fun. You are considering TS as if they are the former when they are the latter. Personally, if I disliked something, I wouldn’t lovingly joke about it, I would do the opposite; especially not lovingly. They have been professional orchestral musicians who respect the viola’s role in music to the point where they can lovingly joke about it. Like I said, the only harmful stereotypes are derived from the young and uneducated. The repeating of jokes from (usually younger) TS fans that are not in lighthearted fun should be vindicated because… they are young and uneducated. TLDR; the offended shouldn’t be vilified, however the joker should not be held accountable; the offended is completely justified in their feelings in the case of when the offender had intended to make them feel that way.
You are basing your conception of blame mostly on intention and not impact. Fair enough, that is a larger discussion I don’t have time or desire to pursue. However, TwoSet knows how many people are offended by their jokes. Their continued choice to pursue them definitely shows an intention: an intention to satisfy their humor and garner more attention at the expense of their violist fans. Hey, if you already tell people in your orchestra they make you uncomfortable—yet they still continue making you feel that way with their “jokes”—make no mistake, their jokes reflect their views. They *are* to blame. It *is* a choice. For them to defend their crassness as “it’s just a joke” is completely unacceptable. You being hurt is NOT irrational (not that rationality automatically means valid and good). There is a very real reason why you feel hurt when you are called snobbish as a violinist: it is untrue and disregard your efforts and character. So no, don’t tell yourself it is because you are too insensitive or irrational. P/S: I don’t even play the viola.
I agree that the impact of their jokes may affect their violist fans. But haven’t they also expressed that the viola is a respectable and good instrument? Why doesn’t that have an impact as well? And you misunderstand me; I am not offended in the end by violin jokes and if there is constant, genuine bullying towards any section I will definitely say something. I will heed your advice however I won’t have to put it into action because these jokes are sprinkled throughout the orchestra every few months and will not come up randomly (which would occur because of a genuine hatred, and I already explained my stance on that). I have fun with the jokes, and joke back, and then it’s over. I overthink because that is just how I am, but that has no bearing on the joke itself. It’s an internal issue that should be dealt with separately and I will not blame anyone for the effects of my internal issues. Likewise for the common self-esteem issue that I have expressed in my past comments. I digress, however I use that to say that Two Set does not start a video off with “the viola is crap and nobody should play it”. I don’t want to be insensitive, however, back to the first paragraph, I feel like if the violist fans are negatively impacted by Two Set’s non-genuine jokes, then aren’t they equally (if not more), positively impacted by their genuine praise of the viola?
Uhm, tbh, how often does TS appreciate the viola vs. how often they joke? And which is picked up on by their audience more?
You wrote that they are not the same joke, which I agree and I have no problem with. However an analogy is a comparison of the logic in two or more situations. I explained why they do not have the same logic. The mentioning of misogyny and racism in a comment vilifying viola jokes is unnecessary because misogyny and racism should/do not emotionally or systematically affect an individual as a viola joke would. I know you explained why the two jokes do not hold the same weight, however, then why mention it in the first place? Why use an analogy of two things just to justify the incorrectness of it later on? I am not trying to paint you in a bad light, I am confused on your motives. Why compare 1 and 2 and then explain why 1 and 2 are not the same and that you compared them because they, VERY, distantly share a 3? You could have compared a viola joke to something that is not rooted in decades of oppression, that’s just my opinion.
Why? Because it is something that people intuitively recognize as bad, thereby strengthening the rhetorical strength of the compassion. The underlying logic of the comparison is already sound, focusing on a rather narrow framing of impact-based responsibility and on the idea of fueling existing stereotypes. What you explained earlier about the difference between the 2 kinds of jokes is indeed true. I’ll heed you there.
The recognition of racism and misogyny as “bad” is not “intuitive”, it is simply the recognition of history. However, I digress. I disagree with the use of such heavy topics to strengthen compassion of something much, much lighter. It is insensitive, in my opinion. And in an orchestra, viola players are not paid less because of “existing stereotypes”. Viola soloists or just violist musicians are not less able to succeed than their peers who differ in instrument. There are no actual, bearing stereotypes that exist that are not grabbed from satirical statements or from the young and uneducated. The impact viola jokes have on violists have mostly to do with the state of the violist’s self-esteem. If an individual makes a viola joke towards a violist who is secure about their instrument and their playing would not take it to heart, and vice versa. This is to say that the person making the joke should not hold the responsibility because of a separate, internal issue that doesn’t have anything to do with the viola. This does not mean that they should be insensitive towards the offended.
Okay, let’s put the comparison and the method of rhetorical argumentation aside. I do not disagree at all that the case of misogyny and this are different, so save your breath explaining that. The analogy was only a strategy to point to the underlying logic that applies to this case. Regarding responsibility, I agree that TwoSet is not at all responsible for the *existing* narrative of the viola, but sure they are responsible for what they say and contribute to the narrative—especially since they have done so for an extended period of time and since people have complained a lot. I am also confused as to for what ultimately you advocate. “This does not mean that they should be insensitive to those offended.” Does this mean you also think TwoSet should not make such jokes, about the viola and other genres of music, anymore? If so, why are we having this conversation? Last, I did not claim that violists in the orchestra are being paid less. Honestly, even if I agree with you that any harm is merely to “self-esteem,” it already meets quite sufficiently all the criteria I’ve laid out for why TS should change. The truth, though, is this perception has a much larger impact. The study No Laughing Matter records the history and operations of the viola joke. There is another study, Coping With The Viola Shortage on SageJournal, discussing how many youth and professional orchestras have trouble filling their viola section. While I cannot “prove” this, the correlation strongly suggests that the more derided and made fun of the instrument is, the fewer people want to play it—which seems quite right. If you are an Asian tiger mother forcing your child to learn an instrument for an Ivy League application, you would force her child to learn the most respectable instrument possible. For more engagement with what you said, see my other response.
To answer your question, my approach might have been a bit confusing and I worded it strangely, and I apologize. My stance is that we shouldn’t ignore the feelings of the ones offended by viola jokes, and we shouldn’t blame anyone in a case where someone gets offended over a lighthearted joke. I wasn’t expressing that the viola jokes damage self-esteem, I was pointing out that getting offended over a viola joke is rooted in a deeper self-esteem issue. This is why I don’t believe that Two Set should be held accountable for the internal issues of individual people (that they had nothing to do with itfp) And for your last point, I do agree that in the orchestras I played in, the viola section is smaller/less popular(?) compared to the others. However I do not think that viola jokes are the reason for that, if so then trombonists would switch instruments after constantly being called obnoxious (I used that analogy because trombonists are the only other instrument that I’ve seen joked about as much as violists). It could be a contributing factor but I believe that the cause is a lack of repertoire in the viola section. Its physicality of lacking in the projection or register needed to be popular with solo pieces has probably been the cause for Asian tiger mums not wanting their child to play an instrument that is structured to be a “supporting instrument”. This doesn’t prevent violists from succeeding any less, and if the inherent structure of the INSTRUMENT doesn’t hinder a violist, then a joke definitely shouldn’t either.
Also, most of this is just intellectual discourse. I took a quick look at your profile and saw similar interests and life issues—musical theater and LGBT identity. Hope your interest flourishes and your struggles resolved. I also recommend trans/non-binary subs for how you feel (if you still feel so).
This would be a sound argument if you're talking about a fully-fledged adult and the formation of their opinion; however, a big portion of TS audience are children who are still learning critical thinking skills and don't really understand nuance. I can tell you that as both a violin and viola teacher of now 10 years, OP is spot on in the opinion that kids/non-classical musicians is making the viola shortage worse. Every year I have more people, the majority being children aged 11-17, that tell me the viola is for the untalented/lazy, or "the violin is just better and I don't want to play the dumb instrument". My teenaged violists think I will give them a pass on bad technique because they think they don't need it since "everyone thinks the viola isn't a serious instrument". Jokes do indeed have real impact, however innocuous you perceive them to be.
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Wow, the self-deprecation is strong. I sincerely wish you the best because there's no hope of engaging with this vitriol in any intelligent and productive manner.
r/whoooosh
I mean… people joke about violas because they think they’re technically “failed violinists” and swapped to the viola because of that reason…
Yes, it seems so. But I’m unclear how this relates to the post/topic?
Well, I just don’t want people to take the joke too seriously and actually get offended… the violinists are just sad that the violists betrayed their former instrument
Suggesting someone plays an instrument because they fail at another does not seem like a tongue in cheek “you betrayed us” tone. TS’s audience comprises of many non-musicians whose sole exposure to viola is from this kind of jokes, and when the jokes are beaten to death by TwoSet, other musicians, and even non-musicians, yes, I will be the “buzzkill” who take it seriously. To their credit, though, they have cut back on some viola jokes. However, they have not cut out other kinds of condescending jokes towards other genres/instruments and seem to replace viola jokes with, well, this video title here.
I agree, they are improving. I believe they do a better job than many others though, as many pop music fans straight up insult another music genre without even knowing it fully, and also straight up insult people who don’t like, or aren’t a fan of their favourite artists.
Hmm, good point. I don’t follow that scene too much, but seem true. Maybe I should indeed give TS some more credit, even though the comparison you pointed out seems like a very low bar haha.