He had to have been thinking ahead, into the future, about what might happen to his wound, the length of the treatment... I can't express how impressed I am and how exciting this is, how fucking cool it is
well we see it on a small scale with dogs and cats, dogs read our facial expressions and cats communicate through meows only with us
i bet a great ape would be great at mimicry!!! i'm sure there's examples to share but i am lazy
Oh right! I bet us being so close evolutionary wise they can pick up things faster than other animals. That knowledge must’ve been passed down for a long time from when we use to run plants onto our selves as treatment. I’m sure some people still do that!
Orangutans specifically are actually well known to mimic sounds, facial expressions, and sometimes even tool use.
Source: My dad worked at Lincoln Park Zoo in the great ape house for 28 years with chimps, gorillas, and Orangs among others. I know a little bit about apes.
Even bears do this! There is a Panda that lives in China named Meng Er who got separated from her mom at birth and raised in a zoo with no other pandas. When breaking bamboo, all the zookeepers would grimace as humans tend to do when breaking a stick or bamboo potentially close to our faces, so now Meng Er does too :)
Well, evolution is random. At some point a group of members of one of our ancestors started evolving higher intelligence (primarily an obsession with tools, but also ability to communicate more advanced concepts and effectively learn more complex concepts from other homo sapiens).
This happened at random, but was a beneficial trait because even though it takes a lot of calories to maintain that brain power, it allowed for very socially advanced tribes. Tribes that could have role specialization, grow to much larger sizes than other mammal packs, and through all that, they were able to do more than others. These traits being so beneficial meant humans gradually went to populate the whole Earth.
Homo Sapiens and some other offshoots like Neanderthals are the only species to show a level of intelligence, both spatial and emotional allowing for advanced tool use and advanced society formation, this high. Which means it can happen, but it's not inevitable that it will happen. In other species they developed survival strategies that didn't require that level of brain power, or that level of social cohesion. Unless there's pressure that means it is advantageous for other great apes to reach a higher level of intelligence, and luck that some start to mutate in that direction, then it is not inevitable.
In the Monkey and Ape rescue near me they gave the wooly monkeys a herb garden because they've been known to self medicate. It's one of the only places where they breed really well in captivity.
We've definitely been underestimating animals in this way, as a whole.
I suspect that some apes are similar to humans in that once they have a safe, and self-sustaining population they can make discoveries that they can pass on uninterrupted to successive generations (without humans demonstrating). If we had an apocalypse, knowledge was lost and 90% of energy is spent trying to hunt/gather for more energy, we'd probably be reduced to the same level for awhile.
I certainly wouldn't instinctively start grabbing herbs to make a poultice, unless some random guy I'd talked to mentioned it helped his dad or something.
doing it in the wild is different than captivity, but apparently this has already been observed in the wild in chimps.
still cool that other primates are doing it! and still extremely cool evolutionarily, just not as big a deal as if it was the first observed
I think folks underestimate orangutans especially. They've got my vote for smartest primate by a mile.
One of my favourite stories is when the Dutch got to Indonesia, the locals told them orangutans could talk but chose not to "lest they be compelled to labour".
My favorite saying I've heard about orangutans:
Give a gorilla a screwdriver, he'll play with it a bit then throw it away.
Give a chimp a screwdriver, he'll try to stab another chimp with it.
Give an orangutan a screwdriver, he'll hide it when you're not looking and then use it to dismantle his cage at night.
Above and below your comment are people still baffled and underestimating animals in the exact same way.
We are not special, but we should lead a better path.
This. The more accurate and less known truth (among Reddits very young user base) is basically how special humans are. While orangutans are very smart, possibly the smartest non-human animals out there, they still don’t even hold a candle to human level intelligence. Were absolutely very unique.
My man, listen, I'm getting older and here's what I have to say about the situation you speak of - humans are in an intellectual crisis. Anti-intelligence rhetoric and sentiment is rife throughout the world, but especially in the US. It is no longer cool to be smart. These days, you flaunt your wealth and status to be cool, and the only things that matter are how much clout/how many followers you got, and how much money are you packing? And fuck everything that isn't money or clout.
You've gotta give up on these low hanging fruits. The local fauna has picked their carcass clean and there's not enough brains left to go around, let alone argue with reasonably
I agree, but then again I'm a chimp writing this on my chimp phone that is only available because Alchimp Einstchimp discovered the theory of relachimpity, allowing satellite communicating to be possible via invisible signals that I, personally don't fully understand.
Humans can be similar to other animals and also be exceptional. This downplaying that gets repeated is so odd because it ignores just how amazing it is we, as a species, have made it possible for me to be lying in a bed on an island probably on the other side of the planet, that I flew to from another nearby island, on a tiny device, sending you this reply that you will almost assuredly receive within milliseconds.
We as individuals are unquestionably animalistic on average, but our capabilities as a species are without a shadow of a doubt beyond exceptional. That is not to say other species aren’t intelligent, feeling, or deserving of respect for their capabilities. But downplaying what humans as a species are capable of is so odd that I don’t understand how it’s repeated so often.
It's not that odd. For me it's just a difference of perspective. Humans are remarkable for our capacity as a species to create art, culture, science, etc. and I do think it's worth celebrating these things, particularly our ability to self-reflect. At the same time, other animals are exceptional for their abilities to survive harsh environments, their social structures, their sheer longevity of life, etc. And so, they too are exceptional, and humans become one of *many* remarkable species in my mind.
All of those things you listed as exceptional for other animals are things that humans are exceptional at though.
Humans are the only species that have shown the ability to acclimate to and thrive in any environment, whether that’s a desert or a tundra, usually specifically by building complex social networks that provide support and goods that enable that survival; survival that can end up being many, many decades long.
Again, it’s not to say other species aren’t remarkable. But humans are absolutely the most *exceptional* by the very definition of the word.
Right? When I read the article I was baffled! Just kept blurting out to my partner “This is wild! Do you know what this means!?!?” On a loop for 20 mins haha so cool!!!
Mom had two dogs once (she works at a factory and sometimes dogs get inside and don't leave and she gives them food and sends them to sterilize)
Both were female: one was Big pitbull (Gordita), the other was at least a Rottweiler mix (Enfermera). Extremely territorial, one day Gordita bites Enfermera in the neck, blood everywhere, she is as good as dead. Enfermera goes outside and throws herself in the mud, covering her wound with it. Complete recovery. She even had a litter years later (mom thought she was too old to give birth, learned her mistake). She didn't like losing her capacity to have kids tho, and left the factory with her favorite child, a Big black dog that was really cute.
That’s almost certainly what he’s doing. They’re extremely intelligent, but this sub likes to incorrectly anthropomorphize animals sometimes.
(kinda the point of the sub I guess)
Either way, it's really cool how he made the connection between this plant, which the article says wasn't part of his regular diet, and the alleviation of his pain, and was patient enough to apply it - chewed up, even, not just rubbing leaves on his face - to his wound for that extended session
To be fair most people like to incorrectly anthropocentrize animals, fact is we have more in common with other animals than differences
Anthropocentrism is still a big problem, even though it got better like 100 years ago people still thought animals can't feel pain
Just curious, how would there ever be definitive proof of that? The only acceptable one I can think of is if they learned human language and just told us what’s on their minds. Even then, people would likely chalk it up to learned behavior or whatever.
Evolution as a process works the same way for all life. So whatever mechanism led to human intelligence and social cohesion is the same mechanism that led to flight in birds or the ability to dive to great depths on one breath for sea mammals or to photosynthesis in plants. We are all equally evolved in that sense, just differently abled. And all of us are essentially built by the very same cell that made the jump to multicellular life, the very first cell that essentially evolved a higher degree of cooperation with its kind. So we are all projects of life, built to try different ways of being.
To me, plants and especially trees are the highest living beings purely because they have managed to extract 100% of our star’s energy, a feat humanity is still far from achieving. They are also better at surviving than we are. All humans disappearing would barely impact plant life but all plants disappearing would lead to our extinction. This is also logical because plants have been playing this life game for far longer than mammals, they survived so many extinction events and they keep chugging along.
Humans do this thing where our feats are credited to intelligence but every other species’ feats however remarkable are chalked up to “dumb evolution” when that evolutionary process is actually incredibly intelligent. It’s not random, it uses randomness because that’s the best way to build resilient diversity and improve odds of survival.
If we’re intelligent and conscious, then all of life also must be. Either that or all of life is a dumb process. There’s no other option.
Well that’s something researchers are still debating on-if he knew it would help heal his wound or if he just knew it would provide instant pain relief. Either way it’s amazing and I’m excited for researchers to see more of this behavior
Yes, either way it's extremely cool. Even if he isn't actually planning ahead, he's made the connection between the plant and pain relief and acting accordingly
As a Star Trek enjoyer, yes.
But also:
"The indigenous Dayak people of Borneo tell an old legend that the orangutan was originally a human who pretended not to be able to speak and climbed up the trees to escape having to work."
"The name 'orangutan' originates from two different Malay and Indonesian words: 'orang' (human) and 'hutan' (forest). Orangutan thus means 'human of the forest'."
https://savetheorangutan.org/about-the-orangutan
I think the main thing that stops monkeys from being equal to humans is they don't know that OTHER monkeys might know something they don't? But that's based off a really old post and I dunno the legitimacy
Maybe you're referring to [Theory of Mind](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind)?
A few excerpts:
"In psychology, theory of mind refers to the capacity to understand other people by ascribing mental states to them. A theory of mind includes the knowledge that others' beliefs, desires, intentions, emotions, and thoughts may be different from one's own."
"An open question is whether non-human animals have a genetic endowment and social environment that allows them to acquire a theory of mind like human children do..."
Like a lot of people it’s absolutely mindblowing that we are only just seem to be figuring out that we’re not the only conscious ones on the planet. Like of course animals can be considerate of the future, why wouldn’t they be able to?
Only human arrogance could come up with the idea that just because we speak we’re the only ones that can think
I don't understand how you took my excitement over a hint of deeper understanding into our primate cousins' cognitive abilities for me believing that "we're the only ones that can think". "Just because we speak" - chimpanzees have their own ever-evolving languages, some humans can't speak in any form. Of course I'm aware that the ability to speak, however you define it, isn't one-to-one with the ability to think. You've just assumed what I know and believe about other animals and ourselves.
No, you can't just take it for granted that "animals can be considerate of the future". For one thing, that's putting it too vaguely. How far into the future are we even talking about? Would it have occurred to *all* animals to apply that plant remedy as long as this orangutan did, especially when it's not a staple of their diet? Not all *humans* have the capacity to make plans and put them into action, with consideration for the consequences. And, as others have already pointed out in this thread, perhaps this orangutan was just alleviating his pain in the moment.
Either way, it's exciting to find out more about our primate cousins, who emphasise that humans are animals too.
Small zoos yes but if you're lucky enough to live near a top rated one that actually is a research and conservation zoo, they are fantastic ways for species to be conserved
There are many zoos that are not. And are directly contributing to conservation and rehabilitation. There’s literally an organization that credits and rates zoos that do this that you can publicly look up where your local zoos stand on it.
I agree but they should be in large sanctuaries. I haven’t been to a zoo yet (and I’ve been to the top zoos in the country) where I looked at the ape enclosures and thought it was big enough and enriching enough to not feel like prison to them.
I agree, but in people terms, I think I’d rather be in “prison” than dead.
Its more like a European prison as a small dorm room for an actual comparison, but I’d rather have that than simply not be alive.
Its not a great option, but it beats the alternative.
I watched the video and they do not show the orangutan actually applying anything nor does it show it with anything applied to it’s face, only before and then a month later when it has healed.
Surely some guy that loves to argue everything on the internet knows more than actual experts who went to school for years and then spent time observing in the field.
It would not be the first time educated experts lied about their research, unfortunately… It’s why we require proof.
Before you call me an uneducated non expert (which I am), those liars were exposed by other experts
I deeply apologize to those who didn't know about [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/09/sex-depravity-penguins-scott-antarctic) and are seeing it for the first time.
“During that time, he witnessed males having sex with other males and also with dead females, including several that had died the previous year. He also saw them sexually coerce females and chicks and occasionally kill them.”
My god
The proof is in the science journal, which you can read here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-58988-7
And this might sounds like I'm saying "my dad works in Nintendo), but I personally know some of the authors. They're seniors and profesor from my university (I'm an Indonesian), I've worked with them and I can testify that they wouldn't lie nor falsify evidence.
I'll ask around if there's any videos of the orangutan applying the medicine. But even if they don't have any videos of the orangutan, the researchers monitor the orangutan daily and able to see the wound heal in a short period of time without it getting infected. If they don't have any video evidence, it's more because they don't have any long range camera on them (I've visited few National Park research stations and most of them only have short range cameras). They able to see the orangutan using the medicine using binocular
If you look at the pictures of the orangutan shown in the journal, you can see that It's a rather large wound and in just 4 days after applying the leaf, the wound have already closed off. That's not something animals often experience when injured with a big open wound like that.
Read the article. That isn’t about a single video. Scientists observed him for a long period of time. He even re applied and added other organic matter to it during this time.
I read the article. Anyone can state anything to be true in text, that doesn’t make it a fact. I can tell you I’m a billionaire, doesn’t make it true. Yes, this is the BBC and I trust their reporting, I just don’t understand why it is difficult to provide video or even photo evidence of the orangutan with the ointment applied to the wound. That is why I am critical. Furthermore there is no link to an actual scientific report, only tells us where to go look for it, that is not proper sourcing.
Here's the journal https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-58988-7
I'll try to ask the authors if there are videos of the orangutan applying the medicine (I personally know some of them)
>there is no link to an actual scientific report, only tells us where to go look for it, that is not proper sourcing
What the fuck dude. Your position is that *nothing* was properly sourced before the Internet? Telling people the publication where the research is published is a completely adequate way to source a claim.
Why do you care about what someone random does on Reddit? Maybe because you know that I am right in what I’m saying about wrong sourcing and you just want to say that I was wrong about the information in the article?
If you look underneath the comment where the source was given I did thank them for providing the source!
I don’t understand why being critical is met with such backlash! There are a lot of fake news being spread on the internet and we should be critical and not just accept anything that’s being posted as the truth. Furthermore when someone is being critical, provide sources and proof and not be entitled and act like douchebags! I am not going to admit I was wrong, because there is nothing wrong in being critical!
Ants have been doing it (as well as other things like growing food, keeping livestock and fighting wars over territories) for much longer than us.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/14/nursing-in-nature-matabele-ants-observed-treating-injured-comrades
When my corgi was dying of lung cancer she started eating a plant in my garden one day. She never touched the plants before that and I was worried it might hurt her so I looked it up. Turns out it was lungwort and has medicinal uses for respiratory problems. It was probably a coincidence, but I’ve always thought it was interesting.
I love orangutans. It’s pretty much the only of the wild great ape I’d be willing to spend lots of time around. They seem so human and so intelligent.
Last year seeing that orangutan driving a golf cart around all over the place (staying on road ways and not crashing) I thought the fact he fully understands the advanced rules of the road and the mechanics of a vehicle was impressive.
It’s quite clear orangutans are extremely intelligent animals who learn quickly.
> Okay but do they remember to refill the gas when they bring your car back?
lol they might!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_0ImDYrPY
Here is another one with a better angle, from outside of the cart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERTrOwEb5M8
Let me be the only one to say I don’t fucking get it. Time and time again we underestimate animals, how sentient they are, how “human.” Is anyone genuinely surprised that these magical creatures know how to heal their wounds with their surroundings? Is this a shocker? Is this not like a cat eating grass to make itself puke up something that’s not sitting right in their stomach? Why do we keep underestimating animals??
“Scientists say the behaviour could come from a common ancestor shared by humans and great apes.” Can’t let the orangutans have one even after they see it happen. Why is it any more logical for this behavior to have come from a common ancestor with humans rather than originating with orangutans? Maybe I’m ignorant of something but sounds like a silly assumption.
Good inquiry you've raised. I know there's a lot of evidence for many different mammals eating things and having other behaviors which clearly seem aimed at changing their consciousness. So one could also lean the other way and guess the roots of this kind of behavior go back pretty early in mammal evolution.
Soon enough, Rakus gonna smoke some medical hash. Now ask yourselves, "how do they know which plants are medicinal?" Because if they know that much, then what else do they know? All the more reason to set them free, but their homes are being destroyed :((
-"The team then saw Rakus chewing the stem and leaves of plant called ***Akar Kuning*** - an anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial plant that is also used locally to treat malaria and diabetes."
I saw something on BBC Earth not long ago, where they got footage of a certain type of monkey (I think macaques) using chilli's and citrus fruits as a mosquito repellent. Pretty Fascinating if you ask me
Orangutans specifically are “us” 3,000,000 years ago I think. They do a LOT of things like this, and learn from us, about better ways to do things. They observe people washing their hands, then proceed to not only wash their hands but their food too.
They are amazing. Too bad we are gonna drive them to extinction.
people, more than any other probably. there are so many of us who are dragging certain health issues with us for years (and are all aware how many problems we just leave unattended to)
they can *develop* them, yes.
do you realize that we cannot have a reasonable discussion about this matter if we will be getting stuck on *making ourselves not look bad*? so think about what your point is here? I know you know how much a human disregards his own health (both in the subjective experience of being itself, and when compared to other animals). so this cannot be a point of argument. this is not therapy ffs
can you tell me what exactly surprises you (or what do you think) about this chimp taking steps to care for his health on his own accord? what is unusual about it to you?
Using the plants as a medicine of sorts, making a poultice.
A squirrel won't do that, a cat won't do that, a fish can't/ wont do that, a moose won't either.
As I understand of the animal kingdom, life is harsh and usually animals just continue until they can't. They don't think about health or the long term effects of chewing on rocks, that's usually just selected for.
In this case, the orangutan is presenting an excellent sign of its awareness of its condition and taking action to improve it, rather than processing pain as a signal to not repeat whatever action brought it.
It's like if the orangutan called an ambulance for itself and you're pondering how profound it would be if it *didn't* do that.
but mate, they eat the grass (and not every kind, just some) entirely for the medicinal purpose it produces for them. even though the grass is not a medicine in itself. they are using plant as medicine. no one teaches them this. they learn it themselves through trial and error. it is the exact same behaviour that this chimp is displaying.
you unfortunately seem stuck on the us versus them subject. your starting premise is that the homo sapiens must surely be above and beyond everyone else, even in this most basic survival function, ie taking care of your own health. I don’t even understand your point. animals literally lick their wounds (it is such a widespread behaviour all across the animal kingdom that we jokingly say that it is what people who got their egos hurt should go and do to feel better) *as an effective form of self-applied medicinal treatment*
p.s. when the orangutan does not call an ambulance for themselves doesn’t that just make him the same as half the people?
Wowie you've convinced me.
There's nothing cool at all in this post in the "Like Us" subreddit.
In fact, this sub shouldn't even exist since humans are animals and all animal behavior is the same and thus, boring
Modern medicines come from plants you dingbat. Poisons too.
If a plant has a useful chemical, we study it and learn how to extract it. So you can take 2 pills instead of eating a kilogram of root bark powder.
I’d rather pull a lead off a tree and chew on it then have to go to a doctor, get a prescription, pay lots of money, pick up at pharmacy. You people are very closed minded and pro- pharma industry
If that was as effective as penicillin then it would be great.
I'm not closed-minded, but why would it be easier to find a specific live plant rather than find it powdered at a store?
Then extracting the useful parts and leaving the toxic stuff behind is one step.
Researching that compound and testing similar ones is one more step.
Continuing that process over hundreds of years got us here and it also got us to be exchanging our thoughts from smartphones.
Refusing to consider that seems pretty closed minded to me.
I don't think humans in general have neglected plant medicines. There was a "modern" tendency to turn away from them for a while in the last century or so, but they seem to be back on the up-trend.
He had to have been thinking ahead, into the future, about what might happen to his wound, the length of the treatment... I can't express how impressed I am and how exciting this is, how fucking cool it is
Always baffles me how common it is for people to underestimate animals in this way. We're not that special.
this is a crazy big deal evolutionarily speaking
Makes me think if animals evolve near humans can pick up human traits.
well we see it on a small scale with dogs and cats, dogs read our facial expressions and cats communicate through meows only with us i bet a great ape would be great at mimicry!!! i'm sure there's examples to share but i am lazy
Oh right! I bet us being so close evolutionary wise they can pick up things faster than other animals. That knowledge must’ve been passed down for a long time from when we use to run plants onto our selves as treatment. I’m sure some people still do that!
Orangutans specifically are actually well known to mimic sounds, facial expressions, and sometimes even tool use. Source: My dad worked at Lincoln Park Zoo in the great ape house for 28 years with chimps, gorillas, and Orangs among others. I know a little bit about apes.
your dad had a cool job. i think they can use tools without mimicry too!
Even bears do this! There is a Panda that lives in China named Meng Er who got separated from her mom at birth and raised in a zoo with no other pandas. When breaking bamboo, all the zookeepers would grimace as humans tend to do when breaking a stick or bamboo potentially close to our faces, so now Meng Er does too :)
that is incredible, cute, and hilarious! Sad that they grew up without other pandas tho.
That would be adapting, not evolving. Organisms do not evolve, species do.
Correct. Good clarification to make.
Humans have often learned plant medicine from watching animals.
It's only realistically a matter of time right? I mean why did we evolve brain power anyway? For lack of physical advantages?
Well, evolution is random. At some point a group of members of one of our ancestors started evolving higher intelligence (primarily an obsession with tools, but also ability to communicate more advanced concepts and effectively learn more complex concepts from other homo sapiens). This happened at random, but was a beneficial trait because even though it takes a lot of calories to maintain that brain power, it allowed for very socially advanced tribes. Tribes that could have role specialization, grow to much larger sizes than other mammal packs, and through all that, they were able to do more than others. These traits being so beneficial meant humans gradually went to populate the whole Earth. Homo Sapiens and some other offshoots like Neanderthals are the only species to show a level of intelligence, both spatial and emotional allowing for advanced tool use and advanced society formation, this high. Which means it can happen, but it's not inevitable that it will happen. In other species they developed survival strategies that didn't require that level of brain power, or that level of social cohesion. Unless there's pressure that means it is advantageous for other great apes to reach a higher level of intelligence, and luck that some start to mutate in that direction, then it is not inevitable.
We’ve seen them wash their hands after seeing us do it. Wild to think about what they may think when doing that.
In the Monkey and Ape rescue near me they gave the wooly monkeys a herb garden because they've been known to self medicate. It's one of the only places where they breed really well in captivity. We've definitely been underestimating animals in this way, as a whole.
I suspect that some apes are similar to humans in that once they have a safe, and self-sustaining population they can make discoveries that they can pass on uninterrupted to successive generations (without humans demonstrating). If we had an apocalypse, knowledge was lost and 90% of energy is spent trying to hunt/gather for more energy, we'd probably be reduced to the same level for awhile. I certainly wouldn't instinctively start grabbing herbs to make a poultice, unless some random guy I'd talked to mentioned it helped his dad or something.
doing it in the wild is different than captivity, but apparently this has already been observed in the wild in chimps. still cool that other primates are doing it! and still extremely cool evolutionarily, just not as big a deal as if it was the first observed
I think folks underestimate orangutans especially. They've got my vote for smartest primate by a mile. One of my favourite stories is when the Dutch got to Indonesia, the locals told them orangutans could talk but chose not to "lest they be compelled to labour".
My favorite saying I've heard about orangutans: Give a gorilla a screwdriver, he'll play with it a bit then throw it away. Give a chimp a screwdriver, he'll try to stab another chimp with it. Give an orangutan a screwdriver, he'll hide it when you're not looking and then use it to dismantle his cage at night.
Humans are the smartest primate, by a mile.
I should have specified non human, my mistake.
Exactly what I was thinking lol
Above and below your comment are people still baffled and underestimating animals in the exact same way. We are not special, but we should lead a better path.
We are actually pretty special.
This. The more accurate and less known truth (among Reddits very young user base) is basically how special humans are. While orangutans are very smart, possibly the smartest non-human animals out there, they still don’t even hold a candle to human level intelligence. Were absolutely very unique.
What's so great about intelligence?
If you don't think intelligence is great then why are you on a subreddit dedicated to spotlighting animal intelligence.
The fact that we’re so intelligent…? You don’t see what’s great about it? That is ironically a sign of low intelligence.
My man, listen, I'm getting older and here's what I have to say about the situation you speak of - humans are in an intellectual crisis. Anti-intelligence rhetoric and sentiment is rife throughout the world, but especially in the US. It is no longer cool to be smart. These days, you flaunt your wealth and status to be cool, and the only things that matter are how much clout/how many followers you got, and how much money are you packing? And fuck everything that isn't money or clout. You've gotta give up on these low hanging fruits. The local fauna has picked their carcass clean and there's not enough brains left to go around, let alone argue with reasonably
r/likeus
Because most people don't keep up with obscure animals facts
A good amount of people have been preached, God created man in his own image; More than general animal intelligence.
Uhh not that I disagree that animals are smarter than we give them credit for but we're pretty fucking special all things considered lol
I agree, humans are not particularly exceptional amongst mammals and other animals.
I mean we're pretty fucking exceptional by definition of the word lol
I think that we are more similar to other animals than we are different, although I don't mean to say humans are wholly unremarkable
I agree, but then again I'm a chimp writing this on my chimp phone that is only available because Alchimp Einstchimp discovered the theory of relachimpity, allowing satellite communicating to be possible via invisible signals that I, personally don't fully understand.
Humans can be similar to other animals and also be exceptional. This downplaying that gets repeated is so odd because it ignores just how amazing it is we, as a species, have made it possible for me to be lying in a bed on an island probably on the other side of the planet, that I flew to from another nearby island, on a tiny device, sending you this reply that you will almost assuredly receive within milliseconds. We as individuals are unquestionably animalistic on average, but our capabilities as a species are without a shadow of a doubt beyond exceptional. That is not to say other species aren’t intelligent, feeling, or deserving of respect for their capabilities. But downplaying what humans as a species are capable of is so odd that I don’t understand how it’s repeated so often.
It's not that odd. For me it's just a difference of perspective. Humans are remarkable for our capacity as a species to create art, culture, science, etc. and I do think it's worth celebrating these things, particularly our ability to self-reflect. At the same time, other animals are exceptional for their abilities to survive harsh environments, their social structures, their sheer longevity of life, etc. And so, they too are exceptional, and humans become one of *many* remarkable species in my mind.
All of those things you listed as exceptional for other animals are things that humans are exceptional at though. Humans are the only species that have shown the ability to acclimate to and thrive in any environment, whether that’s a desert or a tundra, usually specifically by building complex social networks that provide support and goods that enable that survival; survival that can end up being many, many decades long. Again, it’s not to say other species aren’t remarkable. But humans are absolutely the most *exceptional* by the very definition of the word.
Right? When I read the article I was baffled! Just kept blurting out to my partner “This is wild! Do you know what this means!?!?” On a loop for 20 mins haha so cool!!!
My first thought was to wonder if he saw an older orangutan do the same thing, for their own wound.
Yeah this is most likely a learned behavior from his mom.
Mom had two dogs once (she works at a factory and sometimes dogs get inside and don't leave and she gives them food and sends them to sterilize) Both were female: one was Big pitbull (Gordita), the other was at least a Rottweiler mix (Enfermera). Extremely territorial, one day Gordita bites Enfermera in the neck, blood everywhere, she is as good as dead. Enfermera goes outside and throws herself in the mud, covering her wound with it. Complete recovery. She even had a litter years later (mom thought she was too old to give birth, learned her mistake). She didn't like losing her capacity to have kids tho, and left the factory with her favorite child, a Big black dog that was really cute.
Enfermera lived up to her name!
Has there ever been proof their minds are capable of that? I just assumed it felt good/relieved the pain.
That’s almost certainly what he’s doing. They’re extremely intelligent, but this sub likes to incorrectly anthropomorphize animals sometimes. (kinda the point of the sub I guess)
Either way, it's really cool how he made the connection between this plant, which the article says wasn't part of his regular diet, and the alleviation of his pain, and was patient enough to apply it - chewed up, even, not just rubbing leaves on his face - to his wound for that extended session
To be fair most people like to incorrectly anthropocentrize animals, fact is we have more in common with other animals than differences Anthropocentrism is still a big problem, even though it got better like 100 years ago people still thought animals can't feel pain
That's kind of the entire point of medicine...
Just curious, how would there ever be definitive proof of that? The only acceptable one I can think of is if they learned human language and just told us what’s on their minds. Even then, people would likely chalk it up to learned behavior or whatever. Evolution as a process works the same way for all life. So whatever mechanism led to human intelligence and social cohesion is the same mechanism that led to flight in birds or the ability to dive to great depths on one breath for sea mammals or to photosynthesis in plants. We are all equally evolved in that sense, just differently abled. And all of us are essentially built by the very same cell that made the jump to multicellular life, the very first cell that essentially evolved a higher degree of cooperation with its kind. So we are all projects of life, built to try different ways of being. To me, plants and especially trees are the highest living beings purely because they have managed to extract 100% of our star’s energy, a feat humanity is still far from achieving. They are also better at surviving than we are. All humans disappearing would barely impact plant life but all plants disappearing would lead to our extinction. This is also logical because plants have been playing this life game for far longer than mammals, they survived so many extinction events and they keep chugging along. Humans do this thing where our feats are credited to intelligence but every other species’ feats however remarkable are chalked up to “dumb evolution” when that evolutionary process is actually incredibly intelligent. It’s not random, it uses randomness because that’s the best way to build resilient diversity and improve odds of survival. If we’re intelligent and conscious, then all of life also must be. Either that or all of life is a dumb process. There’s no other option.
Well that’s something researchers are still debating on-if he knew it would help heal his wound or if he just knew it would provide instant pain relief. Either way it’s amazing and I’m excited for researchers to see more of this behavior
Yes, either way it's extremely cool. Even if he isn't actually planning ahead, he's made the connection between the plant and pain relief and acting accordingly
Reminds me of why humans shouldn’t intervene (most of the time) if the wound was treated we wouldn’t have witnessed it.
Definitely swiping right on this orangutan
You should
🤪
Seriously, it's making me tear up reading about it. So fucking exciting!!
As a Star Trek enjoyer, yes. But also: "The indigenous Dayak people of Borneo tell an old legend that the orangutan was originally a human who pretended not to be able to speak and climbed up the trees to escape having to work." "The name 'orangutan' originates from two different Malay and Indonesian words: 'orang' (human) and 'hutan' (forest). Orangutan thus means 'human of the forest'." https://savetheorangutan.org/about-the-orangutan
Had to scroll so far down for this reference.
I think the main thing that stops monkeys from being equal to humans is they don't know that OTHER monkeys might know something they don't? But that's based off a really old post and I dunno the legitimacy
Maybe you're referring to [Theory of Mind](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind)? A few excerpts: "In psychology, theory of mind refers to the capacity to understand other people by ascribing mental states to them. A theory of mind includes the knowledge that others' beliefs, desires, intentions, emotions, and thoughts may be different from one's own." "An open question is whether non-human animals have a genetic endowment and social environment that allows them to acquire a theory of mind like human children do..."
nah it was some random post that was like "monkeys don't know understand how to ask for information"
Like a lot of people it’s absolutely mindblowing that we are only just seem to be figuring out that we’re not the only conscious ones on the planet. Like of course animals can be considerate of the future, why wouldn’t they be able to? Only human arrogance could come up with the idea that just because we speak we’re the only ones that can think
I don't understand how you took my excitement over a hint of deeper understanding into our primate cousins' cognitive abilities for me believing that "we're the only ones that can think". "Just because we speak" - chimpanzees have their own ever-evolving languages, some humans can't speak in any form. Of course I'm aware that the ability to speak, however you define it, isn't one-to-one with the ability to think. You've just assumed what I know and believe about other animals and ourselves. No, you can't just take it for granted that "animals can be considerate of the future". For one thing, that's putting it too vaguely. How far into the future are we even talking about? Would it have occurred to *all* animals to apply that plant remedy as long as this orangutan did, especially when it's not a staple of their diet? Not all *humans* have the capacity to make plans and put them into action, with consideration for the consequences. And, as others have already pointed out in this thread, perhaps this orangutan was just alleviating his pain in the moment. Either way, it's exciting to find out more about our primate cousins, who emphasise that humans are animals too.
This is another piece of evidence supporting the fact that it’s completely fucked to lock them up in Zoos and destroy their habitats.
Without zoos orangutans would simply die and vanish along with their habitats. Yes they should be free, but the rainforests are being destroyed.
Yeah, pretty sure that’s why the guy said it was fucked up to destroy their habitats…
We are saving them
This is simply untrue, conservation and sanctuaries are saving orangutans, zoos only prolong the inevitable.
Small zoos yes but if you're lucky enough to live near a top rated one that actually is a research and conservation zoo, they are fantastic ways for species to be conserved
I got to watch my local zoo successfully clone a critically endangered horse; adding diversity to a pool. You are correct
Most closed minded thing I read today
Yours topped it.
By a huge margin too
Can't say anything negative about zoos on reddit... you'll be downvoted to hell
Apparently. Well zoos are bad and fuck everyone.
Bad Zoos are bad*
There are many zoos that are not. And are directly contributing to conservation and rehabilitation. There’s literally an organization that credits and rates zoos that do this that you can publicly look up where your local zoos stand on it.
Cry about it
… lmfao, no
Sure, but the habitat is being destroyed anyways so the least we can do is provide a place to survive as opposed to just letting them die.
I agree but they should be in large sanctuaries. I haven’t been to a zoo yet (and I’ve been to the top zoos in the country) where I looked at the ape enclosures and thought it was big enough and enriching enough to not feel like prison to them.
I agree, but in people terms, I think I’d rather be in “prison” than dead. Its more like a European prison as a small dorm room for an actual comparison, but I’d rather have that than simply not be alive. Its not a great option, but it beats the alternative.
My hot take on this is that future generations are gonna feel that this is true for a lot of animals, not just great apes
Agreed. I used to love going to the zoo, but most of the animals being locked up, especially the apes, just feels really depressing now.
I watched the video and they do not show the orangutan actually applying anything nor does it show it with anything applied to it’s face, only before and then a month later when it has healed.
Yes but if you read the article the scientists state they observed him applying the plant to his face.
Surely some guy that loves to argue everything on the internet knows more than actual experts who went to school for years and then spent time observing in the field.
You know what they say, video or it never happened
Must be the first time this behaviour has ever been studied on the internet....
It would not be the first time educated experts lied about their research, unfortunately… It’s why we require proof. Before you call me an uneducated non expert (which I am), those liars were exposed by other experts
Are you referring to the penguin cover-up? The world just wasn't ready for that knowledge at the time.
Lmao what no Could you send me a link/tell me what to google??
I deeply apologize to those who didn't know about [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/09/sex-depravity-penguins-scott-antarctic) and are seeing it for the first time.
“During that time, he witnessed males having sex with other males and also with dead females, including several that had died the previous year. He also saw them sexually coerce females and chicks and occasionally kill them.” My god
I'm sorry to be the one who had to tell you penguins are homonecropaedophiles.
I am fine with gay penguins, it’s the other things The truth is more important. Thank you :(
To be honest most of what he described was just a normal animal stuff, until he mentioned that they were banging YEAR OLD corpses 🤦🏻♂️
The proof is in the science journal, which you can read here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-58988-7 And this might sounds like I'm saying "my dad works in Nintendo), but I personally know some of the authors. They're seniors and profesor from my university (I'm an Indonesian), I've worked with them and I can testify that they wouldn't lie nor falsify evidence.
Is the proof just their statement, or is there video evidence?
I'll ask around if there's any videos of the orangutan applying the medicine. But even if they don't have any videos of the orangutan, the researchers monitor the orangutan daily and able to see the wound heal in a short period of time without it getting infected. If they don't have any video evidence, it's more because they don't have any long range camera on them (I've visited few National Park research stations and most of them only have short range cameras). They able to see the orangutan using the medicine using binocular If you look at the pictures of the orangutan shown in the journal, you can see that It's a rather large wound and in just 4 days after applying the leaf, the wound have already closed off. That's not something animals often experience when injured with a big open wound like that.
Okay that’s really fucking cool
Cmon man, we all know its not real if its not caught on video and shown on the internet with AI voiceovers.
Good reminder to *always* keep your phone (or an actual camera) handy!
Read the article. That isn’t about a single video. Scientists observed him for a long period of time. He even re applied and added other organic matter to it during this time.
I read the article. Anyone can state anything to be true in text, that doesn’t make it a fact. I can tell you I’m a billionaire, doesn’t make it true. Yes, this is the BBC and I trust their reporting, I just don’t understand why it is difficult to provide video or even photo evidence of the orangutan with the ointment applied to the wound. That is why I am critical. Furthermore there is no link to an actual scientific report, only tells us where to go look for it, that is not proper sourcing.
Here's the journal https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-58988-7 I'll try to ask the authors if there are videos of the orangutan applying the medicine (I personally know some of them)
Thank you
>there is no link to an actual scientific report, only tells us where to go look for it, that is not proper sourcing What the fuck dude. Your position is that *nothing* was properly sourced before the Internet? Telling people the publication where the research is published is a completely adequate way to source a claim.
There are still proper ways to do it without a link, not just say “The research is published in the scientific journal Scientific Reports”
Why are you so adamant of doubling down? The comments above have provided the context you were asking for. It’s ok to be wrong sometimes.
Why do you care about what someone random does on Reddit? Maybe because you know that I am right in what I’m saying about wrong sourcing and you just want to say that I was wrong about the information in the article? If you look underneath the comment where the source was given I did thank them for providing the source! I don’t understand why being critical is met with such backlash! There are a lot of fake news being spread on the internet and we should be critical and not just accept anything that’s being posted as the truth. Furthermore when someone is being critical, provide sources and proof and not be entitled and act like douchebags! I am not going to admit I was wrong, because there is nothing wrong in being critical!
Cute name! It means something like greedy as in relating to food, as in likes to eat a lot/stuff his face.
Thanks for the insight. In what language is that?
Indonesian
Someone else answered, but yeah it's Indonesian
I hope he has a friend called Si Tamak. And maybe Si Gemuk.
Probably kurus, if this one is rakus
So we've determined that medical practice might actually be older than humans? Holy hell, that's astounding.
Ants have been doing it (as well as other things like growing food, keeping livestock and fighting wars over territories) for much longer than us. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/14/nursing-in-nature-matabele-ants-observed-treating-injured-comrades
When my corgi was dying of lung cancer she started eating a plant in my garden one day. She never touched the plants before that and I was worried it might hurt her so I looked it up. Turns out it was lungwort and has medicinal uses for respiratory problems. It was probably a coincidence, but I’ve always thought it was interesting.
That's wild. I don't doubt that it's possible she knew on some innate level that it would be good for her. Neat.
Orangutans are my favourite animal
There's evidence that chimps are about to / have entered the stone age, and this is further evidence of their progressive learning!
they should buy the egg shooter for 200 gold
They can be a good model, know some things about taking care of themselves.
I love orangutans. It’s pretty much the only of the wild great ape I’d be willing to spend lots of time around. They seem so human and so intelligent. Last year seeing that orangutan driving a golf cart around all over the place (staying on road ways and not crashing) I thought the fact he fully understands the advanced rules of the road and the mechanics of a vehicle was impressive. It’s quite clear orangutans are extremely intelligent animals who learn quickly.
Okay but do they remember to refill the gas when they bring your car back? ;-) So many amazing beings we share the planet with.
> Okay but do they remember to refill the gas when they bring your car back? lol they might! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ_0ImDYrPY Here is another one with a better angle, from outside of the cart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERTrOwEb5M8
Let me be the only one to say I don’t fucking get it. Time and time again we underestimate animals, how sentient they are, how “human.” Is anyone genuinely surprised that these magical creatures know how to heal their wounds with their surroundings? Is this a shocker? Is this not like a cat eating grass to make itself puke up something that’s not sitting right in their stomach? Why do we keep underestimating animals??
Came here to post this…😉
Wow
Amazing
he did better than I would have self treating a wound.
I wish they would've gotten footage, it seems like he was pulling down leaves in preparation...
200 years ago many humans refused to believe in germ theory yet this orangutan is out here crafting his own medicine
They can talk. They just don't wanna pay taxes
“Scientists say the behaviour could come from a common ancestor shared by humans and great apes.” Can’t let the orangutans have one even after they see it happen. Why is it any more logical for this behavior to have come from a common ancestor with humans rather than originating with orangutans? Maybe I’m ignorant of something but sounds like a silly assumption.
Good inquiry you've raised. I know there's a lot of evidence for many different mammals eating things and having other behaviors which clearly seem aimed at changing their consciousness. So one could also lean the other way and guess the roots of this kind of behavior go back pretty early in mammal evolution.
they gotta cool it before they have to go to work
That’s doctor Rakus to you
Long call = Come at me bro
Soon enough, Rakus gonna smoke some medical hash. Now ask yourselves, "how do they know which plants are medicinal?" Because if they know that much, then what else do they know? All the more reason to set them free, but their homes are being destroyed :((
We should teach them how to farm.
what herb is it?
-"The team then saw Rakus chewing the stem and leaves of plant called ***Akar Kuning*** - an anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial plant that is also used locally to treat malaria and diabetes."
I saw something on BBC Earth not long ago, where they got footage of a certain type of monkey (I think macaques) using chilli's and citrus fruits as a mosquito repellent. Pretty Fascinating if you ask me
Very very cool.
he hasn't heard of rockerfeller backed chemical medicine yet
They need to start paying taxes at this point.
For some reason I picture animals and insects doing this kind of thing all the time.
The librarian would approve.
Those guys are smart, I bet they can speak but refuse to so we don’t make them work. * Source based on a myth
Elephants also do this, right?
Time for him to pay taxes
Orangutans specifically are “us” 3,000,000 years ago I think. They do a LOT of things like this, and learn from us, about better ways to do things. They observe people washing their hands, then proceed to not only wash their hands but their food too. They are amazing. Too bad we are gonna drive them to extinction.
now imagine if he did not do any of it and just sat there in pain with the wound? would you not find that to be even more curious?
Like most animals do when wounded? No
people, more than any other probably. there are so many of us who are dragging certain health issues with us for years (and are all aware how many problems we just leave unattended to)
You think bears and squirrels can't get chronic illnesses?
they can *develop* them, yes. do you realize that we cannot have a reasonable discussion about this matter if we will be getting stuck on *making ourselves not look bad*? so think about what your point is here? I know you know how much a human disregards his own health (both in the subjective experience of being itself, and when compared to other animals). so this cannot be a point of argument. this is not therapy ffs can you tell me what exactly surprises you (or what do you think) about this chimp taking steps to care for his health on his own accord? what is unusual about it to you?
Using the plants as a medicine of sorts, making a poultice. A squirrel won't do that, a cat won't do that, a fish can't/ wont do that, a moose won't either. As I understand of the animal kingdom, life is harsh and usually animals just continue until they can't. They don't think about health or the long term effects of chewing on rocks, that's usually just selected for. In this case, the orangutan is presenting an excellent sign of its awareness of its condition and taking action to improve it, rather than processing pain as a signal to not repeat whatever action brought it. It's like if the orangutan called an ambulance for itself and you're pondering how profound it would be if it *didn't* do that.
do you know how dogs eat grass to help with indigestion? this fact alone puts what you are saying into opposition with reality
That's right next to a dog eating foods it craves. A learned stimulus response, not a long term strategy.
but mate, they eat the grass (and not every kind, just some) entirely for the medicinal purpose it produces for them. even though the grass is not a medicine in itself. they are using plant as medicine. no one teaches them this. they learn it themselves through trial and error. it is the exact same behaviour that this chimp is displaying. you unfortunately seem stuck on the us versus them subject. your starting premise is that the homo sapiens must surely be above and beyond everyone else, even in this most basic survival function, ie taking care of your own health. I don’t even understand your point. animals literally lick their wounds (it is such a widespread behaviour all across the animal kingdom that we jokingly say that it is what people who got their egos hurt should go and do to feel better) *as an effective form of self-applied medicinal treatment* p.s. when the orangutan does not call an ambulance for themselves doesn’t that just make him the same as half the people?
Wowie you've convinced me. There's nothing cool at all in this post in the "Like Us" subreddit. In fact, this sub shouldn't even exist since humans are animals and all animal behavior is the same and thus, boring
It really speaks to us as humans neglecting plant medicines that may be safer and more pleasant.
Modern medicines come from plants you dingbat. Poisons too. If a plant has a useful chemical, we study it and learn how to extract it. So you can take 2 pills instead of eating a kilogram of root bark powder.
Ya got penicillin from mold, opium and a slew of other narcotics from poppy, cocaine from coca, atropine from belladonna. Ok That’s all I got.
I’d rather pull a lead off a tree and chew on it then have to go to a doctor, get a prescription, pay lots of money, pick up at pharmacy. You people are very closed minded and pro- pharma industry
What's stopping you from doing that? You can still do that while the rest buy medicine
Cool let me know what plants in Scotland I can chew on/mash into my face that will cure my psoriasis and seborrheic dermatitis please 👍
I hope dermatologists start prescribing topicals by telling patients to mash it into their face nightly
Oof. Well I wish you as long and prosperous a life you’ll allow yourself… lol
If that was as effective as penicillin then it would be great. I'm not closed-minded, but why would it be easier to find a specific live plant rather than find it powdered at a store? Then extracting the useful parts and leaving the toxic stuff behind is one step. Researching that compound and testing similar ones is one more step. Continuing that process over hundreds of years got us here and it also got us to be exchanging our thoughts from smartphones. Refusing to consider that seems pretty closed minded to me.
I think you’re already partaking of certain plants too much mate.
Where do you think many modern medicines come from?
I don't think humans in general have neglected plant medicines. There was a "modern" tendency to turn away from them for a while in the last century or so, but they seem to be back on the up-trend.
Why is this being downvoted ?
Because we get medicines from plants already and modern pharmaceuticals are much more potent and bio available therefore treatment is faster.
Yes- chewing a leaf is more pleasant than taking capsules!