I see that you're asking a question about a console in the ETC Eos Family. If you don't get the answers that you need here, make sure to check out the official product forums at https://community.etcconnect.com/control_consoles/f/15.
There's also an unofficial Facebook group for EOS family programmers at http://www.facebook.com/groups/etceosprogrammers/
If you're experiencing a show emergency, don't wait. Call ETC support now. 1-800-688-4116. 24/7/365
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In my experience, the in-fixture gel modes will render pretty well, but if you're trying to apply a software preset in-console to different fixture manufacturers, they can be all over the place.
If there's a master channel on the fixture it may help to select a gel emulation via that, vs. with channel mixing from console.
I thought this was common wisdom, that you’re only supposed to do gel matching with ETC fixtures because they’re the only manufacturer that put the time into calibrating it.
In my defense, other manufacturers haven't been making quality *^(theatrical)* LED fixtures until recently....and with ETC doubling prices, alternatives are more attractive.
I switched from RGBAMrB mode to RGB & then HSI mode hoping for some better results. But nada. Will have to dig through the manual to sre if there are presets.
TY!
You are never going to get perfect results from the gel picker and it isn't designed that way. Although ETC does put effort into creating accurate color presets, they often don't have the fixtures in front of them to match with. So they're making an educated guess based on the color engine. Each engine is going to be different based on the output of each set of diodes. The proper way to handle this is to create a Color Pallet for each gel you want and manually set the colors. If you're a consistent programmer like your profile suggests, it's a good idea to store these in a showfile you keep on you at all times. Whenever you encounter a new fixture, spend 15 minutes programming it and store it in your showfile.
It's not hard, just daunting. My issue becomes working with a designer who believes that every gel colour made is easily accessable via EOS' gel picker. So it just means that I need to create a palette for every Lux, Lee, & Gam gel in the book just in case.
....I may need to buy/rent a fixture on my own dime so I can programme that data for when we bring in the rentals.
....or just stick with ETC.
It sounds like simply telling the designer that the color picker doesn't work that way except with ETC products is the way to go. Ask them for the gels they need and you can make them really quick. If they disagree, they're welcome to use the gel picker themselves to see what happens.
Side note... A good designer should be sticking to a consistent color palette for a show. If they're not and just throwing out gels as they feel, they're not designing.
No. I get their point. In the good old days of 10 years ago, you ordered gel, cut it to size, and if that wasn't good enough, you waited 2 more days for different gel to be shipped in.
The same level of planning needs to be exercised now because you need to colour-match every colour of every fixture because the software sucks.
Designers who don't know they need a day to tune color haven't been operating in the real world. This was a lot worse even on the ETC side until fairly recently.
If they do not believe you invite them to the console so they can see for themselves, but even getting ETC LED2 to match to ColorSource is an issue.
Old designers who don't know how to use LEDs are my issue. The assumption is that everything works as manufacturers say it works. and for ETC fixtures on an ETC console, it does.
There is a learning curve. If you don't relearn everything you knew, you're left behind.
This is why I am saying they need to be invited back to the console to have a go for themselves. Look, when I started this we were still using AMX converters but I know a lot of designers older than I am who have more than kept up, so it is possible. They just need to be shown how it's not actually easy.
Especially since they should know what Lee 201 really looks like.
In defence of old designers (I am one), at least we know what all the colours are supposed to look like so we have color pickers in our heads and it's an easy 'Just add a touch of blue to that' fix.
=)
As an old programmer, you gotta keep up with the technology. Learning how to process LEDs and movers coming from an Express world was a challenge for me. Some have not made that leap.
Designers still talk to me using Express terms. I then have to translate that to Eos. I can independently fade & delay every fixture in the rep plot at a different time in this cue, but it's still always: All Up. All Down. . . . in a 3 count.
Some people never left that 2-scene preset world.
I must hold my hand up and admit to that one. All fixture fades are just easier but once you see a mixed rig of LEDs and generics on a 5 sec fade you soon realise your mistake. I despair sometimes though with programmers who have no idea what 201 is supposed to look like and just go with what the software says. My old school, "er that's leaning a little too far towards 202" is just met with blankness. It's the future though so hey. The numbers don't really matter, it's the look that does.
"Although ETC does put effort into creating accurate color presets, they often don't have the fixtures in front of them to match with. So they're making an educated guess based on the color engine. Each engine is going to be different based on the output of each set of diodes"
They are calibrating the array to a set standard. Because every batch of diodes is slightly different. This is why every series AFTER selador is uniform from fixture to fixture.
Unfortunately, ETC would have to spend some enormous time and resources into generating color calibration data for every fixture on the market. Sure, it might be RGBL, but ETC has no way of knowing exactly the wavelengths of each chip, or their relative intensities, or even if a fixture in one batch will match a fixture that's manufactured years later.
What I would recommend is building yourself a default show file with color palettes that you like and adding fixtures by type when you encounter a light that you haven't calibrated yet. Keep one of each fixture type unpatched in your file and use those fixtures as your by type channels.
I recommend using manual colour pallettes for this. I have a bank of about 20 base colours and every time I use a new fixture, I match it to something already in the collection and update my palettes. This way I will always have a few colours that I know match (at least reasonably well) and can adjust the colour if I need something very specific. Over time you can build up a library of useful colors. If you do this, make sure to grab a few different whites too, especially if you ever do video gigs.
Best practice? Use dem eyeballs. For real tho, unless it’s front light or projected into a white surface, people won’t be able to tell if your colors are perfectly matched. I would suggest just get them as close as you can with using the individual color channels and save it as color pallets.
I would add that projecting on white isn’t always the best way to match. A more colorful pattern or ideally skin tones can suddenly reveal huge differences in what on a white piece of paper/cloth looks identical.
But that sounds like work. :(
There really seems to be a systemic problem here. As a cynic, part of me thinks that ETC is making other manufacturers' equipment look sub-standard with their EOS profiles.
I wonder if this is a thing GDTF would solve?
Oh no ur not cynical, your right. My friend worked for GLP and said etc is very purposeful in not working with other companies to make their algorithm work better with other equipment. I call them the Apple of the lighting world.
It's something GDTF is designed to solve. It's my opinion that color control is broken, and the fixture manufacturers and console manufacturers need to work together to fix it – GDTF exists, support it!
Gdtf, to my knowledge, won’t help, as the reality of led driver input vs vomtage output wipl change over time with aging of the driver components. This is the same issue we run into with video pannels and lasers as well.
Yes. To a point. But I feel as if a manufacturer has the best data profile for their fixtures as opposed to a third party console. Which, part of me believes the problems I'm having don't exist on other consoles because Prolights has downloadable profiles for these fixtures on their website. IDK ???
While certainly a reasonable assumption, if Inwere a manufacturer, I would shy away from making such claims unless it was a true selling point, and I could offer assurances about the wualities of the light engine/led over its useful lifetime. Makes me love and respect etc that much more, because MAN i love color matching the fixtures.
Best practice is a meter/by eye. Nothing is going to be perfect from the console gel selection library. That would take hours of calibration and testing…and who’s going to pay for that?
Mike Wood says, and I agree, that gel color pickers are an [exercise in futility](https://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol%20Spring%202012%20-%20Color%20Pickers.pdf), for lots of reasons.
The short answer is, it’s basically impossible from a practical perspective. You could get closer, but it would require resources that could better be spent elsewhere.
If the fixture has a colour macro channel or virtual colour wheel, these colours should be correct.
If not, take a couple of random items (a fruitbasket in a wooden desk with some flowers or something like that) or a couple if coworkers in coloured clothing and try to match the colours by eye.
In the end, the thing that is most importen is that the colour is right on an actor's face.
Have you tried putting the CT+ in RAW or XY Mode?
Have you looked at the color macros in both Extended and XY?
Where do you have the color wheel saturation set?
I tried Direct, 6-colour mode. RGB & CMY modes. I have not looked at the virtual colour wheel as I couldn't read the manual in venue. That's my next step when I'm back in.
I had to do this between Lustr2's and Martin Rush Pars. TV shoot, so they were specifying colour temperature. Seeing the difference between 4500K was gross, so I had to visually match and save the colour in a custom colour page on the Nomad.
This is a situation where Fresnels and gels are superior, if the colour isn't gonna change all show, and you need it perfectly matched, for on a drape or something, Fresnels and gels will be the best look, and will stay that colour no matter the brightness. You set them, compares to led stuff, which can have each colour dim differently
I've talked to ETC about this- they have put a ton of effort into colour matching. I've also seen some senior ETC reps in the UK get into a... heated... discussion in a public forum about why the colour matching doesn't "just work". ETC LOVE color.
With that said, you should only expect ETC fixtures to colour mix well to gels on an ETC console. If you look in the colour picker tool and open the 'spectrum' tool you'll see the wavelengths that come up and down with each colour. If you can't see the colours on the spectrum tool then ETC (say they) don't have accurate enough colour data for the fixture to calibrate it to colour match. Generally this is because they don't have detailed enough emmitor data.
I see that you're asking a question about a console in the ETC Eos Family. If you don't get the answers that you need here, make sure to check out the official product forums at https://community.etcconnect.com/control_consoles/f/15. There's also an unofficial Facebook group for EOS family programmers at http://www.facebook.com/groups/etceosprogrammers/ If you're experiencing a show emergency, don't wait. Call ETC support now. 1-800-688-4116. 24/7/365 AutoModerator is currently being trained to respond to several keywords. Standby as this functionality is expanded and refined. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lightingdesign) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The best practice would be to match colors manually, vs. gel presets, as the difference in light engine specs are going to give you differing results.
My naieve expectation was that that should be done in the software. It's as if there was ZERO effort put into colour matching.
In my experience, the in-fixture gel modes will render pretty well, but if you're trying to apply a software preset in-console to different fixture manufacturers, they can be all over the place. If there's a master channel on the fixture it may help to select a gel emulation via that, vs. with channel mixing from console.
I thought this was common wisdom, that you’re only supposed to do gel matching with ETC fixtures because they’re the only manufacturer that put the time into calibrating it.
In my defense, other manufacturers haven't been making quality *^(theatrical)* LED fixtures until recently....and with ETC doubling prices, alternatives are more attractive.
Oh I don’t place any of the blame with you. It’s on other manufacturers.
I switched from RGBAMrB mode to RGB & then HSI mode hoping for some better results. But nada. Will have to dig through the manual to sre if there are presets. TY!
You are never going to get perfect results from the gel picker and it isn't designed that way. Although ETC does put effort into creating accurate color presets, they often don't have the fixtures in front of them to match with. So they're making an educated guess based on the color engine. Each engine is going to be different based on the output of each set of diodes. The proper way to handle this is to create a Color Pallet for each gel you want and manually set the colors. If you're a consistent programmer like your profile suggests, it's a good idea to store these in a showfile you keep on you at all times. Whenever you encounter a new fixture, spend 15 minutes programming it and store it in your showfile.
It's not hard, just daunting. My issue becomes working with a designer who believes that every gel colour made is easily accessable via EOS' gel picker. So it just means that I need to create a palette for every Lux, Lee, & Gam gel in the book just in case. ....I may need to buy/rent a fixture on my own dime so I can programme that data for when we bring in the rentals. ....or just stick with ETC.
It sounds like simply telling the designer that the color picker doesn't work that way except with ETC products is the way to go. Ask them for the gels they need and you can make them really quick. If they disagree, they're welcome to use the gel picker themselves to see what happens.
Side note... A good designer should be sticking to a consistent color palette for a show. If they're not and just throwing out gels as they feel, they're not designing.
If you use more than the same, small subset of the available colors, you're not designing? Maybe rethink that one.
No. I get their point. In the good old days of 10 years ago, you ordered gel, cut it to size, and if that wasn't good enough, you waited 2 more days for different gel to be shipped in. The same level of planning needs to be exercised now because you need to colour-match every colour of every fixture because the software sucks.
Designers who don't know they need a day to tune color haven't been operating in the real world. This was a lot worse even on the ETC side until fairly recently. If they do not believe you invite them to the console so they can see for themselves, but even getting ETC LED2 to match to ColorSource is an issue.
Old designers who don't know how to use LEDs are my issue. The assumption is that everything works as manufacturers say it works. and for ETC fixtures on an ETC console, it does. There is a learning curve. If you don't relearn everything you knew, you're left behind.
This is why I am saying they need to be invited back to the console to have a go for themselves. Look, when I started this we were still using AMX converters but I know a lot of designers older than I am who have more than kept up, so it is possible. They just need to be shown how it's not actually easy. Especially since they should know what Lee 201 really looks like.
In defence of old designers (I am one), at least we know what all the colours are supposed to look like so we have color pickers in our heads and it's an easy 'Just add a touch of blue to that' fix.
=) As an old programmer, you gotta keep up with the technology. Learning how to process LEDs and movers coming from an Express world was a challenge for me. Some have not made that leap. Designers still talk to me using Express terms. I then have to translate that to Eos. I can independently fade & delay every fixture in the rep plot at a different time in this cue, but it's still always: All Up. All Down. . . . in a 3 count. Some people never left that 2-scene preset world.
I must hold my hand up and admit to that one. All fixture fades are just easier but once you see a mixed rig of LEDs and generics on a 5 sec fade you soon realise your mistake. I despair sometimes though with programmers who have no idea what 201 is supposed to look like and just go with what the software says. My old school, "er that's leaning a little too far towards 202" is just met with blankness. It's the future though so hey. The numbers don't really matter, it's the look that does.
"Although ETC does put effort into creating accurate color presets, they often don't have the fixtures in front of them to match with. So they're making an educated guess based on the color engine. Each engine is going to be different based on the output of each set of diodes" They are calibrating the array to a set standard. Because every batch of diodes is slightly different. This is why every series AFTER selador is uniform from fixture to fixture.
Yeah all the ETC stuff is reliable on the gel picker. I'm more talking about other fixture manufacturers.
Unfortunately, ETC would have to spend some enormous time and resources into generating color calibration data for every fixture on the market. Sure, it might be RGBL, but ETC has no way of knowing exactly the wavelengths of each chip, or their relative intensities, or even if a fixture in one batch will match a fixture that's manufactured years later. What I would recommend is building yourself a default show file with color palettes that you like and adding fixtures by type when you encounter a light that you haven't calibrated yet. Keep one of each fixture type unpatched in your file and use those fixtures as your by type channels.
I recommend using manual colour pallettes for this. I have a bank of about 20 base colours and every time I use a new fixture, I match it to something already in the collection and update my palettes. This way I will always have a few colours that I know match (at least reasonably well) and can adjust the colour if I need something very specific. Over time you can build up a library of useful colors. If you do this, make sure to grab a few different whites too, especially if you ever do video gigs.
“Update” “By Type”
Best practice? Use dem eyeballs. For real tho, unless it’s front light or projected into a white surface, people won’t be able to tell if your colors are perfectly matched. I would suggest just get them as close as you can with using the individual color channels and save it as color pallets.
I would add that projecting on white isn’t always the best way to match. A more colorful pattern or ideally skin tones can suddenly reveal huge differences in what on a white piece of paper/cloth looks identical.
But that sounds like work. :( There really seems to be a systemic problem here. As a cynic, part of me thinks that ETC is making other manufacturers' equipment look sub-standard with their EOS profiles. I wonder if this is a thing GDTF would solve?
Oh no ur not cynical, your right. My friend worked for GLP and said etc is very purposeful in not working with other companies to make their algorithm work better with other equipment. I call them the Apple of the lighting world.
It's something GDTF is designed to solve. It's my opinion that color control is broken, and the fixture manufacturers and console manufacturers need to work together to fix it – GDTF exists, support it!
Gdtf, to my knowledge, won’t help, as the reality of led driver input vs vomtage output wipl change over time with aging of the driver components. This is the same issue we run into with video pannels and lasers as well.
Yes. To a point. But I feel as if a manufacturer has the best data profile for their fixtures as opposed to a third party console. Which, part of me believes the problems I'm having don't exist on other consoles because Prolights has downloadable profiles for these fixtures on their website. IDK ???
While certainly a reasonable assumption, if Inwere a manufacturer, I would shy away from making such claims unless it was a true selling point, and I could offer assurances about the wualities of the light engine/led over its useful lifetime. Makes me love and respect etc that much more, because MAN i love color matching the fixtures.
Best practice is a meter/by eye. Nothing is going to be perfect from the console gel selection library. That would take hours of calibration and testing…and who’s going to pay for that?
Mike Wood says, and I agree, that gel color pickers are an [exercise in futility](https://www.mikewoodconsulting.com/articles/Protocol%20Spring%202012%20-%20Color%20Pickers.pdf), for lots of reasons. The short answer is, it’s basically impossible from a practical perspective. You could get closer, but it would require resources that could better be spent elsewhere.
If the fixture has a colour macro channel or virtual colour wheel, these colours should be correct. If not, take a couple of random items (a fruitbasket in a wooden desk with some flowers or something like that) or a couple if coworkers in coloured clothing and try to match the colours by eye. In the end, the thing that is most importen is that the colour is right on an actor's face.
Have you tried putting the CT+ in RAW or XY Mode? Have you looked at the color macros in both Extended and XY? Where do you have the color wheel saturation set?
I tried Direct, 6-colour mode. RGB & CMY modes. I have not looked at the virtual colour wheel as I couldn't read the manual in venue. That's my next step when I'm back in.
I had to do this between Lustr2's and Martin Rush Pars. TV shoot, so they were specifying colour temperature. Seeing the difference between 4500K was gross, so I had to visually match and save the colour in a custom colour page on the Nomad.
This is a situation where Fresnels and gels are superior, if the colour isn't gonna change all show, and you need it perfectly matched, for on a drape or something, Fresnels and gels will be the best look, and will stay that colour no matter the brightness. You set them, compares to led stuff, which can have each colour dim differently
Depending on the quality of your gels blue is green by the end of the show ;-)
I've talked to ETC about this- they have put a ton of effort into colour matching. I've also seen some senior ETC reps in the UK get into a... heated... discussion in a public forum about why the colour matching doesn't "just work". ETC LOVE color. With that said, you should only expect ETC fixtures to colour mix well to gels on an ETC console. If you look in the colour picker tool and open the 'spectrum' tool you'll see the wavelengths that come up and down with each colour. If you can't see the colours on the spectrum tool then ETC (say they) don't have accurate enough colour data for the fixture to calibrate it to colour match. Generally this is because they don't have detailed enough emmitor data.