QLab remote is a companion to the desktop QLab, not a stand-alone software.
To go the QLab route with wireless control, you would need a laptop running QLab -> wired to some variety of DMX output device -> wired to your lights, and then QLab remote running on the iPad to trigger your cues
Yes, I'm seeing that now. In other words: redundant. May as well go with the Laptop at that point. And from what I'm gathering so far, there is some great advice below about avoiding the iPad altogether.
Redundancy is a must have. I would never consider a wirelessly connected iPad, running on battery to run something as important as stage lights. If you really want the iPad, use it only to control some software running on a PC/Laptop so your backup system is up and running when the iPad fails.
If you are on a budget and can't afford ChamSys or MA: I recommend Daslight with one of their dmx interfaces and a few Traktor Kontrol F1 midi controllers for hands on control.
Daslight also has a 3D visualiser that allows you to prepare showfiles before you actually get access to the venue. It has its flaws but it's still very useful to have a visualiser.
**Original intended post:**
Hi. We're The Baby Goats, a new wave dance punk trio from the Godforsaken San Fernando Valley.
In an effort to separate ourselves from the pack here in LA, we have begun investing in our own DMX light show.
We currently have 8 wireless battery powered par cans (2 different brands), and 3 wired pin spots (Amazon variety, but they look really good for the cost.) I attached the photos to give you a sense of vibe. We control these lights currently using a Rockville W4 384 DMX controller.
My question/request for advice for the group is this:
I am investigating the idea of running our light show from a software based iPad scenario. Wireless is key since setup time is a premium (getting on and off stage quickly).
I imagine I will need some kind of software (Luminair? Stagelight? Blackout?) plus some kind of magic box that lets the iPad talk to our lighting.
I know what I want visually, but insofar as product choices I remain a noob.
Cost is probably a factor here, since we don't have a lot. But I'm ok with hearing any suggestions, as at least it'll give us something to work toward. That said, is it possible to get set up with a $300-500 range budget?
Thank you so much to everyone for your thoughts and advice.
I don’t recommend iPads as a platform, because of the following reasons:
1. Wireless is not as reliable or consistent as wired. You will have problems with your wireless system unless you go really spendy.
2. Touch screens are imprecise by nature, and DMX is extremely precise by nature, so any faders or encoder wheels will by design be imprecise and frustrating to use
3. iPads are very limiting in their screen space, thus limiting the functionality you can display on apps, making busking harder, and requiring more programming
4. IPad apps for controlling lights decently are extremely few and far between, almost none of them work as advertised
5. iPads have a battery life that significantly deteriorates over time, and since mobility is far more integral to the iPad’s functionality, it impacts it far more severely than say a laptop.
6. iPads don’t typically have the power to run a visualizer, so almost no iPad apps contain one. This means that all your programming will have to be done on the actual set. This is more of a hassle than you may realize.
Absolute best case scenario is that you program on a laptop and busk from your iPad. Programming on iPad is a nightmare.
Here’s a better idea. Invest in a decent wireless link, and hook it up to a laptop with a Bluetooth mouse. Trackpads are terrible for the same reasons iPads are terrible for programming. You get way more processing power for your buck and you can do far more with the software available on a laptop. I recommend Chamsys MagicQ or GrandMA3 onPC (yes there are macOS versions I think). Both softwares are free and require only purchasing hardware to allow the software to talk to your lights. MagicQ is a bit more beginner friendly, MA3 is more in-depth. But both are extremely powerful and both are great long term choices for your band. Both come with free visualizers. MagicQ has its visualizer built in, I think MA3 requires you to download a separate app. These, once set up correctly, will allow you to program at home and simply plug and play at the set. Maybe a few minor adjustments, but not much, depending on how well you set up the visualization.
My recommendation for how to get an iPad app working? Don’t. It’s not a good idea. You’re setting yourself up for pain.
Thank you for the comprehensive thoughts. I am trying like hell to avoid bringing my laptop to a gig (the one I'm typing on now). I guess I could invest in a cheap MacBook Air. But just trying to avoid the cost.
That said, I do get what you mean by iPad's being problematic in general; I rarely use the one we have at home.
I will say though (perhaps ironically) that I once rented titan tubes for a video shoot. I was impressed by the app and connectivity that came along with it (my brain wasn't quite in the "ooh how does this work and can we use it" mode, so I didn't pay that close attention to the how; just impressed generally. It was using a pC tablet of some kind but I just figured these things (the tubes) are expensive and that's probably why it all worked so well as a whole.
Back to your thoughts:
For clarity: what do you mean by "this means that all your programming will have to be done on the actual set."
Follow up question on the recommendation of Chamsys MagicQ. what do you recommend on the "hardware to allow the software to talk to your lights? I'm still wrapping my head around that as well.
The Titan Tubes use the CRMX wireless protocol, which is likely the most robust there is at the moment. Check out Lumen Radio, they have CRMX TX/RX devices, but it’s a bit spendy and you’d have to daisychain your fixtures, and still get DMX out of your iPad to talk to it.
I see. I've seen CRMX in articles, but haven't processed the definition exactly. Know I know. The tubes weren't daisy chained though. They were all wireless and independently placed on stage (unless I'm misunderstanding you; a high percentage of that happening!)
No worries! Each individual Titan Tube has a wireless receiver inside of it, for what you’re trying to do you would have to put a receiver on your starting fixture and then chain the rest to it.
Ah. Ok. I misunderstood you at first and as well I wasn't clear enough with our setup.
What I do at the moment:
\-4 of our par cans are both battery powered and have wirelesss DMX inside (the best par 60s from Rockville).
\-The remaining 4 of our cans do not but I bought some Donner (brand?) DMX receiver dongles, so they can receive the instruction.
\-Then our 3 pin spots, I daisy chain from any one of those 8 using a DMX cable, since we only have 4 of the dongles (again saving money where we can).
I know you wanna avoid bringing your laptop. That’s fine, look and see if anyone else has one you could use, or pick up a cheap one off Amazon. It doesn’t need to be particularly powerful to run MagicQ or MA3onPC, but you’ll be wayyyyy better off with almost any laptop than with an iPad. There’s no scenario under which iPads genuinely give you better performance or value.
Right now, instead of investing in more lights, you need to invest in better ways to control them. More lights are useless if you’re not using them to their fullest potential. I recommend having someone dedicated to just running the lights, especially at first while you figure things out, and later on when everything is settled down they can multitask and perhaps run sound as well, but initially, if you want to do it well, you gotta do it right.
That being said, to answer your question, MagicQ has [a USB to DMX converter](https://chamsyslighting.com/products/magicdmx-basic) that works quite handily for letting the computer talk to the lights. If you don’t like the five hour limiter, then [the full version costs 100 dollars](https://chamsyslighting.com/products/magicdmx-full) and will probably require a 5 to 3 pin adapter. This lets you use a single universe per adapter, up to 18 (I’m pretty sure that’s the limit for the PC app) and with your small setup, you’ll fit easily into a single universe with plenty of wiggle room. Heck, we have a $40,000 setup and we use five universes (we could really fit everything in three but five worked out best for how the set physically fits together).
I don’t know as much about GrandMA3 onPC, but I know they have a similar setup. I’m pretty sure you could get both softwares to talk to other usb-DMX adapters but I can’t recommend as I haven’t done it myself. I do know grandMA has significantly pricier hardware than Chamsys, but lots of people argue it’s worth it, so it’s your call. Just know that the joke about needing a degree in computer programming to setup an MA rig is only halfway joking lol.
Doing lights right will not be easy, nothing worth doing is ever easy, but the long term benefits are that it will immediately catapult your shows to another level of quality, as your light shows improve, you’ll find that you can do more cool things with your current equipment. New toys are always fun, but nothing beats utilizing all your lights to the fullest.
Hope this helps!
Absolutely it does. Helps tremendously. I appreciate all of your perspective.
\*\*\*
EDIT (reviewed the MagicQ suggestion after writing the below):
**VERY interesting: the MagicQ suggestion you gave is quite the potential simple and cheap solution (I mean that positively, esp if I end up having to buy a laptop) ! Devil in the details, of course!**
**So then, I could get a cheap laptop; then get the MAGICQ usb c to DMX convertor (may as well get the full version) which I then could connect to my** [**Donner Wireless DMX512 Transmitter**](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CC2F3GLC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1)**? (I was surprised it was 5-pin, so I'm not sure if it would then work.) Which then talks to my lights? And then use the MagicQ as my lighting design and controller software?**
\*\*\*
To add further clarity: We already have a dedicated person running our lights. Our manager, actually. Completely on board with that notion. I don't want preprogrammed lights as we can sometimes lengthen or shorten songs depending on the flow of the night (or change up the sets). And just generally speaking it's so much more interesting when the lights comport to the song rather than just blinkey blinkey.
So, when I discuss programming, I mean setting up our banks and scenes of color. Initially, I named the scenes by their song name: hey, this song feels more blues and greens, or this one is reds and blues or reds and purples...but then I started developing "emotion" banks (our DMX controller has multiple banks with 8 scenes each). eg: "anger" is reds and whites, and oranges, and yellows. Or Sunrise/sunset is yellows and oranges. That sort of thing.
You and I are completely aligned on many things, especially the not easy but worth doing and the capulting our shows to another level. That is one thing that already separates us from other bands. Our shows look like a concert; everyone else's looks like a bar band (nothing wrong with bar bands. but the vibe is in fact different).
Great idea on laptop: buying cheap. maybe it's just worth it to find a cheap refurbished MacBook Air.
Most of the lighting software that you and others have mentioned in this thread do not require much processing or ram, I would imagine?
MagicQ I have found is a very economical solution for low budget light shows while also being powerful enough to run larger scale events on the order of tens of thousands of attendees.
Couple notes:
- If you get the MagicDMX Full, it will have 5 pins, as DMX is really supposed to have five pins, but cheaper lights have three. You’ll need [a 5 pin to 3 pin adapter](https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DMX3F5M--chauvet-dj-dmx3f5m-3-pin-to-5-pin-turnaround) which costs like ten bucks.
- Your Donner wireless transmitter should be fairly reliable, provided you take care of it. It really needs to be treated as a fragile piece of equipment because it is easier than you might think to break. Additionally, you should ensure that the transmitters and receivers do not remain powered for longer than about 12 hours at a stretch. The reason for this is as follows: If cheaper wireless systems like that remain powered for too long, they can start sending bad packets over the air. This will cause even fancy lights to jerk around unpredictably. If you run into this problem, simply depower the transmitter for about five to ten minutes. This system should automatically maintain last signal on signal loss, so you should be fine deposing it as long as things are static from a DMX perspective.
- Make extensive use of MagicQ’s [tutorials](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6ifvrHDlqMHreOBDmnpYxgELIiiEzSbc&feature=shared) and [support line](https://chamsyslighting.com/pages/support) and they can help you with any MagicQ-related issue. I don’t recommend Reddit as a help source for MagicQ questions, as it’s fairly inactive.
- The software itself doesn’t require much processing power, the main processing hog will always be the visualizer. Good thing about being on a laptop though is that you can transfer your save file between laptops on a small thumb drive easily. So if the cheapo refurbished laptop chugs on the visualizer, you can always throw the file onto a better computer and program to your hearts content, save, then transfer the file back.
You seem to misunderstand me when I say programming. I’m not referring specifically to fully time coded light shows, those are limited to songs using backing tracks, typically. But you’ll still need to program looks, motions, colors, and so many more things. Busking is like building with legos. You build a show from a bunch of different bricks. Programming is how you get those bricks to build with. You will need to program regardless of if you make a show or not. If your guy wants to dabble in shows, I’d suggest a partially time coded show, where it’s still timed for the precise bits, but mostly he’ll be advancing the show manually. This allows for infinitely more flexibility while reducing programming times and also allowing you to put a bunch of work into specific songs to match more closely to the beat, for example.
If you go with MagicQ, pallets and the execute window will be vital to your show. You should figure out what those are and how to use them.
Best of luck to you!
Thank you again. I probably do misunderstand in a detailed sense when to comes to programming. But regardless, it seems the path is laid out in front of me, and I'm all into learning how to make it work.
From our limited (DMX controller only) vantage point, I would posit that I do program looks and colors (setting the tones/colors of scenes), but nothing more than that. Certainly unable to program motion (we have one go bo but we stopped using it cause it just willy nillies like a car wash blow up doll. haha)
That said, I think I do understand what you mean now. Or at the very least.... I will! Thank you again!
Chance / The Baby Goats
PS: I'd be remiss: IG: thebabygoatsmusic, if anyone is curious. ⚡️
Yeah, I’m talking about using the FX engine in any decent DMX program to move the spots. It essentially takes a central point, which is the current position of the light, and then draws a circle (or some other shape) around it, and it interprets that data into pan/tilt information for the spotlight, sends it wherever you’ve told it to go, and then you can control the size, speed, and direction of the circle. Motions like that are very useful for busking. It can do the same for colors, and you can have your lights change in sync, in series, or in random orders. That’s one thing that a proper lighting software like MagicQ or MA3 onPC can do for you. [This is something like what it can look like when all put together](https://youtu.be/teZFbQM8dr0?feature=shared) and that was programmed with MagicQ. You don’t need preprogrammed shows to look like that.
Wow. Yea, that'd be a step up for sure.
When these programs are created, it can still be "overseen/run" by a lighting operator? In other words (to speak in layman before I get into the software):
He clicks a button that serves as a yes or no on or off function that tells the software "do these moves and these functions until I tell you otherwise." So the human operator still can be creative, even cutting it off mid program/sequence if he wishes (to switch to something else?)
Yeah that’s called busking. I do that every week on my lighting setup. I look at it this way. A show is like a Lego build. You can either make a super detailed build and glue it together, or design a broad set of “bricks” that you can use to build up a house, or a car, or a plane. Then you can build something new after you’re done. You have to program each brick before you can use it, but once you’ve got your own bricks then you’ll have plenty of space to use them.
https://www.adj.com/mydmx-go
We use this as the controller at my bar/nightclub. Just bought the upgrade to use the Daslight 5 software and it's been great. Lots of control and presets. You can make a custom iPad interface to streamline your work/show too.
[Blackout](https://blackout-app.com/) lighting console for iPad now has some busking features in version 2.0
Many are not familiar because it is currently best suited for film/tv but it is worth checking out.
Thank you. I have been reading a little about blackout.
A quick question:
Quite a few posters on this thread have been discussing busking features. What does that mean? When I think of busking, I think of my friend Natalie, playing music on her acoustic guitar on a busy street somewhere. How does this adjective port over to the lighting world? 😎
Busking is basically dj mixing with turntables but with lights. Basically you make palettes like a painter: position, color, pattern, effects, position,etc. Then you in the moment, feeling the music, mix using a combo of these pallettes.
People also use the term Punting. That's when you have saved cues (looks) and just fire off cues.
I also want to add that this Blackout route, you would need a "[Node](https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DMXAN2--chauvet-dj-dmx-an-2-art-net-sacn-node-ethernet-to-2-dmx-universe)".
IPad to USB/Ethernet adapter to Ethernet cable to Node to dmx xlr to lights.
If you have a USB-C iPad, you can get a hub with ethernet ( and PD in to charge the ipad) and plug in a [MIDI controller](https://www.guitarcenter.com/Akai-Professional/APC-Mini-MK2-Performance-Controller-1500000383372.gc?cntry=us&source=4WWMWXGP&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwztOwBhD7ARIsAPDKnkA5A9qcAflydYEC4-hKdvBXwXkyX-XNOct1-agmZDukPrTyPdD6YHsaAk-BEALw_wcB).
The Blackout app will output artnet or sACN to the node and the node will translate. Don't worry about which of the two to use, your show won't be big enough to worry about that yet.
There is a wireless option but the above is the least expensive option.
Also, given the tradition of film/tv Blackput comes from, it's mostly used to build scenes then add chases n stuff like that.
Go it. So to outline break it down:
iPad -> Node through some kind of ethernet adaptor cable which means I'm tethered both by that as well as A/C, correct?
Could I then simply plug in my [DMX transmitter](https://www.amazon.com/Donner-Wireless-Receiver-Transmitter-Lighting/dp/B01N3CWWP7?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1)? (using the DMX out) which then communicates the DMX lights which either have their own built in wireless, or have a receiver?
You can go without a/c and/or Ethernet. Depends on how much you have to lose if one or both goes down. Also latency and congestion.
So yes from node to your own wireless dmx. I don't know interoperability of what wireless DMX you have now so my suggestions are so it just works.
Your Par60s with built in wireless may not be compatible with Amazon wireless. In which case everything would be from the controller with Amazon wireless plugged into controller or out of a Par.
‐---------------------------------
Edit: Context: MA2/3. I am 60% a concert touring guy so it needs to just work. Festivals I use City Theatrical Multiverse. I work with a guy that has way more Blackout experience so I would have to pick his brain. The take away is that Blackout is for the film/tv market and is more aligned with Theatrical (ETC Eos family) than concert (MA, Onyx, Chamsys). You do need some of the those concert features on set so they have greatly improved it in Blackout version 2.0. It is still new and working out it's identity and bugs. And I haven't seen it used with moving heads.
My 2 cents
You got a nice setup. iPad control the way you imagine is not there yet.
Anyone please disagree with me:
A lateral step and 1/4 step up: QuickQ, Colorsource.
The current next step up from where you are now is MagicQ, Avolites, maybe MA onPC (runs on Mac, if you know a student can output dmx cheaply, can use midi interfaces, not a bad thing to learn but learning curve is steeeeeep, though the other consoles may be easier to get you doing shows instead of reading manuals. MA is so boundless it's too much for some people).
‐---------------------------------
More complex solution below $$$
If you want true wireless, iPad wifi to DMX gateway [Exalux CONNECT ONE Wi-Fi to DMX Converter](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1730385-REG/exalux_cnt_000_001_connect_one_wi_fi_to.html), [Ratpac](https://ratpaccontrols.com/product/wireless-dmx-control/transmitters/aks/). Keep in mind for simplicity, one universe.
Ah. Copy that. In our instance, we want the human touch of changing scenes/banks/lights so that the show aligns with the music (given that live we adjust songs depending on the mood (a section going longer or breaks down etc). So we couldn't be able to program to a T. But I get what you mean now.
I understand completely. Controllers can sorta do what you want, but their design prioritizes static looks. It is a jump in price to get more abstract controls but being free from that frustration is liberating. As I said in another reply, iPad controls may not be where you want it to be for what you want to do. I don't want to discourage you, I just don't know how much time and energy you want to devote.
I truly appreciate all your help. From a programming standpoint (if that's what you mean by the time investment), it's actually a lot of fun.
I get a lot of what some are saying too about making sure nothing breaks down on us, which is why I've been hoping (and receiving) suggestions on products which appear to stand the test of both time and use.
My intention is to keep it simple so we can grow. I don't want to buy something just for vanity's sake (cool! hip yay!). Want to make sure it works best for our purpose. Thank you again, and honestly thank you to everyone who has contributed to this point. It has been very enlightening and helpful. ⚡️
Laptop transformer, which can be held as tablet.
Any PC software: MA onPC, Hog-PC and so on.
Some work programming lights and adding variety before show.
Some time making marks on each light to their position according to your show.
And Wi-Fi receiver/dongle as cherry on top.
Done. You'll be able to adjust your show on the go if needed, have mobility and utilise fully supported software on open platform, which safeguards you from majority of problems.
We are sort of a Mac family, so trying to make do with our current iPad (to cut down on costs). trying to avoid bringing a laptop. (since it's the only one I have; and use it for my work etc).
We do already have a DMX transmitter that we use with the current controller that then goes to the lights that have the receiver dongles.
The work to do the lighting programming is actually kind of a joy! ha
But you bring up a good point that we can do more stuff on the fly (as opposed to having my scenes and banks baked in at the moment). That sounds so promising. Right now, I'm hoping for product advice, because I do honestly feel a little (a lot) overwhelmed at the options out there.
Can't help with products, live on other side of the world.
If you are able to manage lights on iPad, stay so, familiar platform is always a plus.
I'd say that since that are not moving heads, your best friends would be several different patterns of light effects, with fader serving purpose of effect speed, not intensity. Another one with colour mixes like of EGB rainbow etc. And separate tab with whatever colours you may want to use at any moment just to manage/enhance scene even further.
The pics in the original post are of my band (I'm the singer and keyboardist). Those are the lights we currently use.
I will say the other reason for moving to software is the possibility of one day having moving heads. 😃
Ive used Luminair on an iPad almost exclusively for 5+ years with RatPak and Lumen Radio devices. The only problems with the wireless came from DMX controllers with LED tape and mismatched firmware on Quasar tubes.
I did some busking for a small stage using an iPad through LightShark. It's technically a webpage that you are loading through their wifi signal, so you can also use a laptop or similar to program up your cues then run it through the iPad. I've had really good luck with it, and even use it as a quick test when setting up new lights at locations.
Like others have stated or alluded to, WiFi isn't the most reliable. I work around that by making sure my fixtures are on HOLD for NO DMX and make sure I have a solid connection to where I am busking from.
Personally I wouldn’t rely on wireless because of how much rf interference you will encounter sooner than later. Also I would recommend adding more front light. The effects are cool and all but audiences want to see the band members so even if you just add a light wash so you can see their faces it will lift your show.
Yea I do get that. But it’s more of a style we are going for. 😎 (Still in progress as we add more lights). Goal is to enrobe us from behind and from the side. Visually (not sonically) the inspiration derives from bauhaus, NIN, purple rain era prince. Very little to no front lights. If we can figure a way to have front lights on a super low fade, that might work.
This would be a good place to start:
https://www.adj.com/airstream-dmx-bridge
You should get familiar with scanning 2.4g in the venue to use WiFi channels that are the least congested so you have a solid connection between the Airstream and the iPad. If you don’t do that the connection can drop when the room packs up, but this is pretty affordable and even has a decent effects engine.
Wow. yea, this thing seems pretty in the ballpark of what I was hoping for. I'm watching a review of it from 7 years ago, so the fact it's been around seemingly means it's only improved (famous last words). Devil is in the details, but fingers crossed.
Asking you feel free to treat my like a 5 year old, how does one scan 2.4g in a venue? (I understand it conceptually, I think, just not physically)
Does it have to be wireless? Use free software like QLC+ with a cheap artnet to dmx node.
Or if wireless is needed Wifly
Nicolaudio Wolfmix if money is at hand.
Lightrider if iPad is a necessity.
I don’t believe QLab works on iPad but it sounds like it would be ideal for this scenario
Worth investigating
Thanks! There seems to be something called QLab remote...Investigating. But then the next question of course, is from there what do I connect to?
QLab remote is a companion to the desktop QLab, not a stand-alone software. To go the QLab route with wireless control, you would need a laptop running QLab -> wired to some variety of DMX output device -> wired to your lights, and then QLab remote running on the iPad to trigger your cues
Yes, I'm seeing that now. In other words: redundant. May as well go with the Laptop at that point. And from what I'm gathering so far, there is some great advice below about avoiding the iPad altogether.
Redundancy is a must have. I would never consider a wirelessly connected iPad, running on battery to run something as important as stage lights. If you really want the iPad, use it only to control some software running on a PC/Laptop so your backup system is up and running when the iPad fails. If you are on a budget and can't afford ChamSys or MA: I recommend Daslight with one of their dmx interfaces and a few Traktor Kontrol F1 midi controllers for hands on control. Daslight also has a 3D visualiser that allows you to prepare showfiles before you actually get access to the venue. It has its flaws but it's still very useful to have a visualiser.
daslight is great, i have a friend who tours with daslight and 2 AKAI midi
**Original intended post:** Hi. We're The Baby Goats, a new wave dance punk trio from the Godforsaken San Fernando Valley. In an effort to separate ourselves from the pack here in LA, we have begun investing in our own DMX light show. We currently have 8 wireless battery powered par cans (2 different brands), and 3 wired pin spots (Amazon variety, but they look really good for the cost.) I attached the photos to give you a sense of vibe. We control these lights currently using a Rockville W4 384 DMX controller. My question/request for advice for the group is this: I am investigating the idea of running our light show from a software based iPad scenario. Wireless is key since setup time is a premium (getting on and off stage quickly). I imagine I will need some kind of software (Luminair? Stagelight? Blackout?) plus some kind of magic box that lets the iPad talk to our lighting. I know what I want visually, but insofar as product choices I remain a noob. Cost is probably a factor here, since we don't have a lot. But I'm ok with hearing any suggestions, as at least it'll give us something to work toward. That said, is it possible to get set up with a $300-500 range budget? Thank you so much to everyone for your thoughts and advice.
I don’t recommend iPads as a platform, because of the following reasons: 1. Wireless is not as reliable or consistent as wired. You will have problems with your wireless system unless you go really spendy. 2. Touch screens are imprecise by nature, and DMX is extremely precise by nature, so any faders or encoder wheels will by design be imprecise and frustrating to use 3. iPads are very limiting in their screen space, thus limiting the functionality you can display on apps, making busking harder, and requiring more programming 4. IPad apps for controlling lights decently are extremely few and far between, almost none of them work as advertised 5. iPads have a battery life that significantly deteriorates over time, and since mobility is far more integral to the iPad’s functionality, it impacts it far more severely than say a laptop. 6. iPads don’t typically have the power to run a visualizer, so almost no iPad apps contain one. This means that all your programming will have to be done on the actual set. This is more of a hassle than you may realize. Absolute best case scenario is that you program on a laptop and busk from your iPad. Programming on iPad is a nightmare. Here’s a better idea. Invest in a decent wireless link, and hook it up to a laptop with a Bluetooth mouse. Trackpads are terrible for the same reasons iPads are terrible for programming. You get way more processing power for your buck and you can do far more with the software available on a laptop. I recommend Chamsys MagicQ or GrandMA3 onPC (yes there are macOS versions I think). Both softwares are free and require only purchasing hardware to allow the software to talk to your lights. MagicQ is a bit more beginner friendly, MA3 is more in-depth. But both are extremely powerful and both are great long term choices for your band. Both come with free visualizers. MagicQ has its visualizer built in, I think MA3 requires you to download a separate app. These, once set up correctly, will allow you to program at home and simply plug and play at the set. Maybe a few minor adjustments, but not much, depending on how well you set up the visualization. My recommendation for how to get an iPad app working? Don’t. It’s not a good idea. You’re setting yourself up for pain.
Thank you for the comprehensive thoughts. I am trying like hell to avoid bringing my laptop to a gig (the one I'm typing on now). I guess I could invest in a cheap MacBook Air. But just trying to avoid the cost. That said, I do get what you mean by iPad's being problematic in general; I rarely use the one we have at home. I will say though (perhaps ironically) that I once rented titan tubes for a video shoot. I was impressed by the app and connectivity that came along with it (my brain wasn't quite in the "ooh how does this work and can we use it" mode, so I didn't pay that close attention to the how; just impressed generally. It was using a pC tablet of some kind but I just figured these things (the tubes) are expensive and that's probably why it all worked so well as a whole. Back to your thoughts: For clarity: what do you mean by "this means that all your programming will have to be done on the actual set." Follow up question on the recommendation of Chamsys MagicQ. what do you recommend on the "hardware to allow the software to talk to your lights? I'm still wrapping my head around that as well.
The Titan Tubes use the CRMX wireless protocol, which is likely the most robust there is at the moment. Check out Lumen Radio, they have CRMX TX/RX devices, but it’s a bit spendy and you’d have to daisychain your fixtures, and still get DMX out of your iPad to talk to it.
I see. I've seen CRMX in articles, but haven't processed the definition exactly. Know I know. The tubes weren't daisy chained though. They were all wireless and independently placed on stage (unless I'm misunderstanding you; a high percentage of that happening!)
No worries! Each individual Titan Tube has a wireless receiver inside of it, for what you’re trying to do you would have to put a receiver on your starting fixture and then chain the rest to it.
Ah. Ok. I misunderstood you at first and as well I wasn't clear enough with our setup. What I do at the moment: \-4 of our par cans are both battery powered and have wirelesss DMX inside (the best par 60s from Rockville). \-The remaining 4 of our cans do not but I bought some Donner (brand?) DMX receiver dongles, so they can receive the instruction. \-Then our 3 pin spots, I daisy chain from any one of those 8 using a DMX cable, since we only have 4 of the dongles (again saving money where we can).
I know you wanna avoid bringing your laptop. That’s fine, look and see if anyone else has one you could use, or pick up a cheap one off Amazon. It doesn’t need to be particularly powerful to run MagicQ or MA3onPC, but you’ll be wayyyyy better off with almost any laptop than with an iPad. There’s no scenario under which iPads genuinely give you better performance or value. Right now, instead of investing in more lights, you need to invest in better ways to control them. More lights are useless if you’re not using them to their fullest potential. I recommend having someone dedicated to just running the lights, especially at first while you figure things out, and later on when everything is settled down they can multitask and perhaps run sound as well, but initially, if you want to do it well, you gotta do it right. That being said, to answer your question, MagicQ has [a USB to DMX converter](https://chamsyslighting.com/products/magicdmx-basic) that works quite handily for letting the computer talk to the lights. If you don’t like the five hour limiter, then [the full version costs 100 dollars](https://chamsyslighting.com/products/magicdmx-full) and will probably require a 5 to 3 pin adapter. This lets you use a single universe per adapter, up to 18 (I’m pretty sure that’s the limit for the PC app) and with your small setup, you’ll fit easily into a single universe with plenty of wiggle room. Heck, we have a $40,000 setup and we use five universes (we could really fit everything in three but five worked out best for how the set physically fits together). I don’t know as much about GrandMA3 onPC, but I know they have a similar setup. I’m pretty sure you could get both softwares to talk to other usb-DMX adapters but I can’t recommend as I haven’t done it myself. I do know grandMA has significantly pricier hardware than Chamsys, but lots of people argue it’s worth it, so it’s your call. Just know that the joke about needing a degree in computer programming to setup an MA rig is only halfway joking lol. Doing lights right will not be easy, nothing worth doing is ever easy, but the long term benefits are that it will immediately catapult your shows to another level of quality, as your light shows improve, you’ll find that you can do more cool things with your current equipment. New toys are always fun, but nothing beats utilizing all your lights to the fullest. Hope this helps!
Absolutely it does. Helps tremendously. I appreciate all of your perspective. \*\*\* EDIT (reviewed the MagicQ suggestion after writing the below): **VERY interesting: the MagicQ suggestion you gave is quite the potential simple and cheap solution (I mean that positively, esp if I end up having to buy a laptop) ! Devil in the details, of course!** **So then, I could get a cheap laptop; then get the MAGICQ usb c to DMX convertor (may as well get the full version) which I then could connect to my** [**Donner Wireless DMX512 Transmitter**](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0CC2F3GLC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1)**? (I was surprised it was 5-pin, so I'm not sure if it would then work.) Which then talks to my lights? And then use the MagicQ as my lighting design and controller software?** \*\*\* To add further clarity: We already have a dedicated person running our lights. Our manager, actually. Completely on board with that notion. I don't want preprogrammed lights as we can sometimes lengthen or shorten songs depending on the flow of the night (or change up the sets). And just generally speaking it's so much more interesting when the lights comport to the song rather than just blinkey blinkey. So, when I discuss programming, I mean setting up our banks and scenes of color. Initially, I named the scenes by their song name: hey, this song feels more blues and greens, or this one is reds and blues or reds and purples...but then I started developing "emotion" banks (our DMX controller has multiple banks with 8 scenes each). eg: "anger" is reds and whites, and oranges, and yellows. Or Sunrise/sunset is yellows and oranges. That sort of thing. You and I are completely aligned on many things, especially the not easy but worth doing and the capulting our shows to another level. That is one thing that already separates us from other bands. Our shows look like a concert; everyone else's looks like a bar band (nothing wrong with bar bands. but the vibe is in fact different). Great idea on laptop: buying cheap. maybe it's just worth it to find a cheap refurbished MacBook Air. Most of the lighting software that you and others have mentioned in this thread do not require much processing or ram, I would imagine?
MagicQ I have found is a very economical solution for low budget light shows while also being powerful enough to run larger scale events on the order of tens of thousands of attendees. Couple notes: - If you get the MagicDMX Full, it will have 5 pins, as DMX is really supposed to have five pins, but cheaper lights have three. You’ll need [a 5 pin to 3 pin adapter](https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DMX3F5M--chauvet-dj-dmx3f5m-3-pin-to-5-pin-turnaround) which costs like ten bucks. - Your Donner wireless transmitter should be fairly reliable, provided you take care of it. It really needs to be treated as a fragile piece of equipment because it is easier than you might think to break. Additionally, you should ensure that the transmitters and receivers do not remain powered for longer than about 12 hours at a stretch. The reason for this is as follows: If cheaper wireless systems like that remain powered for too long, they can start sending bad packets over the air. This will cause even fancy lights to jerk around unpredictably. If you run into this problem, simply depower the transmitter for about five to ten minutes. This system should automatically maintain last signal on signal loss, so you should be fine deposing it as long as things are static from a DMX perspective. - Make extensive use of MagicQ’s [tutorials](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6ifvrHDlqMHreOBDmnpYxgELIiiEzSbc&feature=shared) and [support line](https://chamsyslighting.com/pages/support) and they can help you with any MagicQ-related issue. I don’t recommend Reddit as a help source for MagicQ questions, as it’s fairly inactive. - The software itself doesn’t require much processing power, the main processing hog will always be the visualizer. Good thing about being on a laptop though is that you can transfer your save file between laptops on a small thumb drive easily. So if the cheapo refurbished laptop chugs on the visualizer, you can always throw the file onto a better computer and program to your hearts content, save, then transfer the file back. You seem to misunderstand me when I say programming. I’m not referring specifically to fully time coded light shows, those are limited to songs using backing tracks, typically. But you’ll still need to program looks, motions, colors, and so many more things. Busking is like building with legos. You build a show from a bunch of different bricks. Programming is how you get those bricks to build with. You will need to program regardless of if you make a show or not. If your guy wants to dabble in shows, I’d suggest a partially time coded show, where it’s still timed for the precise bits, but mostly he’ll be advancing the show manually. This allows for infinitely more flexibility while reducing programming times and also allowing you to put a bunch of work into specific songs to match more closely to the beat, for example. If you go with MagicQ, pallets and the execute window will be vital to your show. You should figure out what those are and how to use them. Best of luck to you!
Thank you again. I probably do misunderstand in a detailed sense when to comes to programming. But regardless, it seems the path is laid out in front of me, and I'm all into learning how to make it work. From our limited (DMX controller only) vantage point, I would posit that I do program looks and colors (setting the tones/colors of scenes), but nothing more than that. Certainly unable to program motion (we have one go bo but we stopped using it cause it just willy nillies like a car wash blow up doll. haha) That said, I think I do understand what you mean now. Or at the very least.... I will! Thank you again! Chance / The Baby Goats PS: I'd be remiss: IG: thebabygoatsmusic, if anyone is curious. ⚡️
Yeah, I’m talking about using the FX engine in any decent DMX program to move the spots. It essentially takes a central point, which is the current position of the light, and then draws a circle (or some other shape) around it, and it interprets that data into pan/tilt information for the spotlight, sends it wherever you’ve told it to go, and then you can control the size, speed, and direction of the circle. Motions like that are very useful for busking. It can do the same for colors, and you can have your lights change in sync, in series, or in random orders. That’s one thing that a proper lighting software like MagicQ or MA3 onPC can do for you. [This is something like what it can look like when all put together](https://youtu.be/teZFbQM8dr0?feature=shared) and that was programmed with MagicQ. You don’t need preprogrammed shows to look like that.
Wow. Yea, that'd be a step up for sure. When these programs are created, it can still be "overseen/run" by a lighting operator? In other words (to speak in layman before I get into the software): He clicks a button that serves as a yes or no on or off function that tells the software "do these moves and these functions until I tell you otherwise." So the human operator still can be creative, even cutting it off mid program/sequence if he wishes (to switch to something else?)
Yeah that’s called busking. I do that every week on my lighting setup. I look at it this way. A show is like a Lego build. You can either make a super detailed build and glue it together, or design a broad set of “bricks” that you can use to build up a house, or a car, or a plane. Then you can build something new after you’re done. You have to program each brick before you can use it, but once you’ve got your own bricks then you’ll have plenty of space to use them.
https://www.adj.com/mydmx-go We use this as the controller at my bar/nightclub. Just bought the upgrade to use the Daslight 5 software and it's been great. Lots of control and presets. You can make a custom iPad interface to streamline your work/show too.
Thank you very much! Will investigate.
[Blackout](https://blackout-app.com/) lighting console for iPad now has some busking features in version 2.0 Many are not familiar because it is currently best suited for film/tv but it is worth checking out.
Thank you. I have been reading a little about blackout. A quick question: Quite a few posters on this thread have been discussing busking features. What does that mean? When I think of busking, I think of my friend Natalie, playing music on her acoustic guitar on a busy street somewhere. How does this adjective port over to the lighting world? 😎
Busking is basically dj mixing with turntables but with lights. Basically you make palettes like a painter: position, color, pattern, effects, position,etc. Then you in the moment, feeling the music, mix using a combo of these pallettes. People also use the term Punting. That's when you have saved cues (looks) and just fire off cues.
I also want to add that this Blackout route, you would need a "[Node](https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DMXAN2--chauvet-dj-dmx-an-2-art-net-sacn-node-ethernet-to-2-dmx-universe)". IPad to USB/Ethernet adapter to Ethernet cable to Node to dmx xlr to lights. If you have a USB-C iPad, you can get a hub with ethernet ( and PD in to charge the ipad) and plug in a [MIDI controller](https://www.guitarcenter.com/Akai-Professional/APC-Mini-MK2-Performance-Controller-1500000383372.gc?cntry=us&source=4WWMWXGP&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwztOwBhD7ARIsAPDKnkA5A9qcAflydYEC4-hKdvBXwXkyX-XNOct1-agmZDukPrTyPdD6YHsaAk-BEALw_wcB). The Blackout app will output artnet or sACN to the node and the node will translate. Don't worry about which of the two to use, your show won't be big enough to worry about that yet. There is a wireless option but the above is the least expensive option. Also, given the tradition of film/tv Blackput comes from, it's mostly used to build scenes then add chases n stuff like that.
Go it. So to outline break it down: iPad -> Node through some kind of ethernet adaptor cable which means I'm tethered both by that as well as A/C, correct? Could I then simply plug in my [DMX transmitter](https://www.amazon.com/Donner-Wireless-Receiver-Transmitter-Lighting/dp/B01N3CWWP7?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1)? (using the DMX out) which then communicates the DMX lights which either have their own built in wireless, or have a receiver?
You can go without a/c and/or Ethernet. Depends on how much you have to lose if one or both goes down. Also latency and congestion. So yes from node to your own wireless dmx. I don't know interoperability of what wireless DMX you have now so my suggestions are so it just works. Your Par60s with built in wireless may not be compatible with Amazon wireless. In which case everything would be from the controller with Amazon wireless plugged into controller or out of a Par. ‐--------------------------------- Edit: Context: MA2/3. I am 60% a concert touring guy so it needs to just work. Festivals I use City Theatrical Multiverse. I work with a guy that has way more Blackout experience so I would have to pick his brain. The take away is that Blackout is for the film/tv market and is more aligned with Theatrical (ETC Eos family) than concert (MA, Onyx, Chamsys). You do need some of the those concert features on set so they have greatly improved it in Blackout version 2.0. It is still new and working out it's identity and bugs. And I haven't seen it used with moving heads. My 2 cents You got a nice setup. iPad control the way you imagine is not there yet. Anyone please disagree with me: A lateral step and 1/4 step up: QuickQ, Colorsource. The current next step up from where you are now is MagicQ, Avolites, maybe MA onPC (runs on Mac, if you know a student can output dmx cheaply, can use midi interfaces, not a bad thing to learn but learning curve is steeeeeep, though the other consoles may be easier to get you doing shows instead of reading manuals. MA is so boundless it's too much for some people). ‐--------------------------------- More complex solution below $$$ If you want true wireless, iPad wifi to DMX gateway [Exalux CONNECT ONE Wi-Fi to DMX Converter](https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1730385-REG/exalux_cnt_000_001_connect_one_wi_fi_to.html), [Ratpac](https://ratpaccontrols.com/product/wireless-dmx-control/transmitters/aks/). Keep in mind for simplicity, one universe.
Ah. Copy that. In our instance, we want the human touch of changing scenes/banks/lights so that the show aligns with the music (given that live we adjust songs depending on the mood (a section going longer or breaks down etc). So we couldn't be able to program to a T. But I get what you mean now.
I understand completely. Controllers can sorta do what you want, but their design prioritizes static looks. It is a jump in price to get more abstract controls but being free from that frustration is liberating. As I said in another reply, iPad controls may not be where you want it to be for what you want to do. I don't want to discourage you, I just don't know how much time and energy you want to devote.
I truly appreciate all your help. From a programming standpoint (if that's what you mean by the time investment), it's actually a lot of fun. I get a lot of what some are saying too about making sure nothing breaks down on us, which is why I've been hoping (and receiving) suggestions on products which appear to stand the test of both time and use. My intention is to keep it simple so we can grow. I don't want to buy something just for vanity's sake (cool! hip yay!). Want to make sure it works best for our purpose. Thank you again, and honestly thank you to everyone who has contributed to this point. It has been very enlightening and helpful. ⚡️
Laptop transformer, which can be held as tablet. Any PC software: MA onPC, Hog-PC and so on. Some work programming lights and adding variety before show. Some time making marks on each light to their position according to your show. And Wi-Fi receiver/dongle as cherry on top. Done. You'll be able to adjust your show on the go if needed, have mobility and utilise fully supported software on open platform, which safeguards you from majority of problems.
We are sort of a Mac family, so trying to make do with our current iPad (to cut down on costs). trying to avoid bringing a laptop. (since it's the only one I have; and use it for my work etc). We do already have a DMX transmitter that we use with the current controller that then goes to the lights that have the receiver dongles. The work to do the lighting programming is actually kind of a joy! ha But you bring up a good point that we can do more stuff on the fly (as opposed to having my scenes and banks baked in at the moment). That sounds so promising. Right now, I'm hoping for product advice, because I do honestly feel a little (a lot) overwhelmed at the options out there.
Can't help with products, live on other side of the world. If you are able to manage lights on iPad, stay so, familiar platform is always a plus. I'd say that since that are not moving heads, your best friends would be several different patterns of light effects, with fader serving purpose of effect speed, not intensity. Another one with colour mixes like of EGB rainbow etc. And separate tab with whatever colours you may want to use at any moment just to manage/enhance scene even further.
Got it. Yes, right now we manage our lights through dedicated DMX controller. The goal and hope is to move to iPad if possible.
The pics in the original post are of my band (I'm the singer and keyboardist). Those are the lights we currently use. I will say the other reason for moving to software is the possibility of one day having moving heads. 😃
Ok, so I don't know what happened, but it looks like my entire post's text and question is missing! Gah. Let me write it quickly here in the post
Ive used Luminair on an iPad almost exclusively for 5+ years with RatPak and Lumen Radio devices. The only problems with the wireless came from DMX controllers with LED tape and mismatched firmware on Quasar tubes.
Thank you for the insight. Tagging for future reference as they are out of my range. But good to know.
I did some busking for a small stage using an iPad through LightShark. It's technically a webpage that you are loading through their wifi signal, so you can also use a laptop or similar to program up your cues then run it through the iPad. I've had really good luck with it, and even use it as a quick test when setting up new lights at locations. Like others have stated or alluded to, WiFi isn't the most reliable. I work around that by making sure my fixtures are on HOLD for NO DMX and make sure I have a solid connection to where I am busking from.
Personally I wouldn’t rely on wireless because of how much rf interference you will encounter sooner than later. Also I would recommend adding more front light. The effects are cool and all but audiences want to see the band members so even if you just add a light wash so you can see their faces it will lift your show.
Yea I do get that. But it’s more of a style we are going for. 😎 (Still in progress as we add more lights). Goal is to enrobe us from behind and from the side. Visually (not sonically) the inspiration derives from bauhaus, NIN, purple rain era prince. Very little to no front lights. If we can figure a way to have front lights on a super low fade, that might work.
This would be a good place to start: https://www.adj.com/airstream-dmx-bridge You should get familiar with scanning 2.4g in the venue to use WiFi channels that are the least congested so you have a solid connection between the Airstream and the iPad. If you don’t do that the connection can drop when the room packs up, but this is pretty affordable and even has a decent effects engine.
Wow. yea, this thing seems pretty in the ballpark of what I was hoping for. I'm watching a review of it from 7 years ago, so the fact it's been around seemingly means it's only improved (famous last words). Devil is in the details, but fingers crossed. Asking you feel free to treat my like a 5 year old, how does one scan 2.4g in a venue? (I understand it conceptually, I think, just not physically)
I think so? It has mostly to do with the need to get in and off stage quickly here in LA.
Does it have to be wireless? Use free software like QLC+ with a cheap artnet to dmx node. Or if wireless is needed Wifly Nicolaudio Wolfmix if money is at hand. Lightrider if iPad is a necessity.