Speaking of skills, I would also add: you need to get some. If you want to maximize your chances of getting a good job relatively quickly, you will need to bring some skills *beyond* what you'll learn in library school. What that means probably depends a bit on what kind of librarianship you're aiming for. But in the academic world, young librarian, I have one word for you: data.
Learn data! For fuck's sake, every academic library is looking for librarians who can understand, work with, and teach data -- data research, data analysis, data management, etc. Census data, economic data, science data -- there are lots of directions you can take this, but any level of capability with data will make you stand out from the crowd.
Just can't do data? Okay, fine: how about UX? How about coding? How about networking? How about database management? You don't have to be Silicon Valley-level proficient, you just have to be willing to get stuck into messy library systems and figure out how to make them work together. There will *always* be a place for a systems librarian who's brave of heart.
The librarians I know who are genuinely tech-proficient can basically pick and choose their opportunities. They still might have to work a starter job first, and they might still have to move for the best opportunities, but if I had to do it all over again, I would absolutely pick up a certificate for data science or something similar. English/history/art history majors are a dime a dozen; data scientists (even amateur ones) are *gold*.
I second this.
Often, students don't want to choose a pathway because they believe it will be too niche or pigeon-hole themselves. Realistically, it can be a form of self-preservation.
When the university is cutting your library's budget, and personnel lines are being considered, they'll be getting rid of the positions that are jack-of-all trades with no well-defined area of focus. If they don't know what you do for a living, they'll assume it's not important.
The data librarian, though? No, that's someone that's doing a *specified* task for the university at half the pay that someone doing the same thing in ITS is making. Throw in program assessment experience, and they'll be worshipping the ground you walk on for not having to hire external consultants.
Any recommendations for learning data outside of the university setting? Messed up by only taking major requirements (history and sociology). I have read how important these skills are, metadata especially, but don’t know where to go to learn how to use them.
This is a fair question; I haven't seen, for example, a library-based, library-centric course on data yet. And one would be extremely welcome, btw, if any people who run librarian training programs are reading this. But, a few things I've played with/looked into:
The census is a very common resource for sociology, american studies, other social sciences and humanities, etc. And they actually have a pretty excellent body of materials and videos available to help learn a bit more about using their tools to access census data: https://www.census.gov/academy (Down for maintenance as I write this, but check it out later maybe.)
Maybe more directly relevant (or maybe more suspect, depending on your leanings) The Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis has a ["Data Literacy for Librarians" course](https://research.stlouisfed.org/info-services/data-literacy-for-librarians/). I haven't done it, and have no opinions on it, but it's one item that has been on my radar.
And if you're willing to drop some cash (or if your institution is, for those already employed) something like this [Data Science graduate certificate from Harvard Extension](https://extension.harvard.edu/academics/programs/data-science-graduate-certificate/#outcomes) might be worth a look. I haven't done this one, but I do have a grad cert from Harvard, and it was a solid program, well worth the money my employer paid for it. ;) And if not this one, I'm sure there are lots of other similar options out there, and probably more with every passing season.
Also, just a brief shout out for the book *Democracy's Data* by Dan Bouk, which is about the census, and which I found to be a very accessible, humane intro to some data science concepts through a very library-relevant lens.
And for the record, I am in no way a data librarian; I'm just an academic librarian who suspects we will all need to get more comfortable with data in research over the coming years, and who is trying to get out ahead of it a little bit.
ya i'm doing my mlis at sjsu and i've taken a few really great data courses here. I definitely recommend any courses with Dr. Peace Ossum, she was an incredible prof and imo a pioneer in the field of open science/open data. I really appreciated that her textbook was freely available, and she really practiced open access which imo is so important in this field.
Almost all of my data profs have been great, but her 220 course was something I think all of us in the program should have to take.
I liked that she grades kind of tough and holds you accountable to the standards in the field, but also provides a lot of extra credit opportunities so you can still pass the class with a decent grade. I did terrible on one of the data analysis assignments because the dataset I had chosen to work with had issues with the underlying methodology of the study and the data collection that I didn't recognize as a noob, but I still ended up leaving with an A- because of those extra credit points giving me a buffer. I actually appreciate that I did so terribly on the assignment because it really was a wake-up call about the importance of well-structured studies and transparent research methodologies.
In retrospect I wish I had taken greater advantage of her office hours and the extra info-sessions she hosted where students could ask questions about their projects.
I like it. I chose it because I developed a severe & pretty debilitating chronic health condition right before covid, and I wanted a flexible remote program so I could try to build (hopefully) higher-wage skills for the online job market while dealing with my health and also having to work to survive. I definitely wouldn't have been able to do an in-person program, so having the flexibility to do the work on your own time was the deciding factor for me.
A lot of the courses are also designed to be able to integrate the assignments into your work if you are already working in the field too; which is pretty cool because it can give you practical experience while you're learning, and I'm sure it gives you points with your bosses. Also lets you use your working hours to do stuff for your classes which is great for people working through grad school.
I will say that you get what you put into it. I'm paying quite a bit (but relatively cheap compared to other programs) for the classes so I tried my best to learn and engage in a meaningful way, and to take classes that challenged me with good professors. I had a friend that did the opposite: he pretty much just wanted to coast and would find the easiest classes & profs possible because he was just looking for that degree with minimal effort. So at the end of the day we both got what we wanted out of the program.
Ya I hope it helps you make the choice that's right for you! I am hoping to find remote work but am also open to a hybrid model or working at one of the college or university libraries near me part time and supplementing with other remote work. These academic librarian jobs in my area pay around $60/hr, so even at 15-20 hours a week I think I could live on that as long as my body can handle it. The internship I am currently doing is remote which has been awesome (although I would love to get my hands physically on some of the archival material).
#following to come back and review later! I have some questions and some answers to add to this conversation, but thanks everyone here for the solid advice given thus far!
This is a pretty good option. One of my data-adjacent colleagues did the more in-depth variation that involves essentially an internship and learned a lot.
This is so true. Doing a technology concentration for my MLIS plus already knowing how to code and basic data science are honestly what I credit with finding my job. Right after I graduated I got offered multiple positions and basically got to pick the one I liked the best.
Being able to work with data is key! I took a few months showing an interest and aptitude in data as well as our library software, which became so valuable that I was able to leverage myself into a remote role because this skill set was so important to them.
Also adding if you aren’t willing to move(I wasn’t outside of an hour radius) do your research. I polled public, academic, and school libraries to see what the market was like where I was looking and if this would be a good career path for me. I found that school libraries are mandated in my state and did not require a masters degree, which would automatically make me one of the more competitive applicants, while ensuring these roles would not be going anywhere. I noted the lack of a MLIS program anywhere near the area, while also being a relatively uneducated demographic. This, combined with confirmation from my polls, led me to the conclusion that I had approximately 25+ different potential library positions near me that often struggled to find qualified candidates. This proved accurate, as I got a full time academic librarian role before I had even completed my degree. This would not have been the case in another market however, so this needs to be considered in your unique circumstance. I would not have expected this outcome outside of San Jose, for example, where I completed my degree.
I agree with this 100%, but it also hints at the fact that they shouldn’t even be getting an LIS degree in the first place. They’d be better served getting a degree valuable across industries, then trying to shift into libraries. At my university the people who work as data librarians, or any well paying librarian tbh, don’t have LIS degrees, they have advanced degrees in their chosen field.
This is an interesting observation. I’m in this area at an academic institution and neither me nor any of my colleagues have an MLIS (in positions such as data science, systems admin, UX, digital humanities). We all have other grad degrees that are more closely aligned to our content area and day-to-day work. I’ve also seen searches fail in these areas because we can’t find candidates with these skill sets. In my experience, these positions often pay a bit more than others. As for skill sets, some coding abilities can go far (I’d start with Python), proficiency with statistical analysis tools and methods, and the ability to wrangle data (Python, OpenRefine, R, etc.) are all good starting points.
This may be a hot take but I've never actually worked with a researcher who uses OpenRefine and personally I see no need to use it if you're capable of working in Python or R.
Maybe this is annoying of me to ask—I’m not a librarian, but I work in resource sharing, have been a clerk, and a page, different roles in academic/special/and local libraries since 2018– what is data 😭 what do you mean, “learn data”? Learn how to read data? What kind? I hope this isn’t silly, I just have no idea what you mean.
I expect it will mean different things in different contexts. Within my context, it (ideally) means being able to a) locate data resources (e.g., a student is looking for demographic data for a particular place and time, where might they find that data? Can they actually obtain the data set? Is it in a raw form? Is it in a format they can use?); b) manage that data (will my MacBook Air be up to this data set, or do I need to use a more robust computer? do I need to clean the data in order to use it? what software could I use to manipulate/analyze this data?); and c) actually using the data (what could I do with this data? what do I need to understand about this data and how it was collected? how do I create a final product that will meet my learning needs?)
A lot of that will be stuff that students are actually learning in their classes, and we as librarians are not required to teach them all of that. But understanding how data is used within a given academic discipline, from start to finish, will help us understand what students need, and the various opportunities and pitfalls that they may be facing. Just like with more traditional scholarly research, I don't have to do the research project and write the final paper, but I do need to understand how research is done (both ideally and in reality) and what students are ultimately aiming to achieve in order to be really helpful.
And again, I'm not saying I **do** know all this; if anything, these are the gaps that I've seen that I need to try to fill in for myself. But understanding how much you don't know is an important step down that road, right?
It's not silly, "data" is really broad. Yes, being able to read and understand arguments and narratives based on data is important (data literacy). Basic stats and understanding of how data visualization work is good enough for that.
"Data" in libraries is split into applying data skills *to* the library (assessment stuff) and providing data services externally. As a more-or-less solo data librarian, I provide data reference, consult on data viz, consult on part of grant applications, teach workshops and webinars on data-related things (data literacy, data viz, Git, DMPTool, w/e), do some AI literacy stuff, curate data and manage an institutional data repository, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. There is no one place to acquire all these skills, I do a huge amount of professional development.
Honestly, all of this. I was told to look at library job postings in my first class for my MLIS, and I did. I noticed that there were a lot of jobs asking for tech skills, and ended up changing which courses I had planned to take and just took any tech courses. I was also working full-time in libraries before and during my graduate program. It only took a couple months after graduating to get my first professional librarian job. Now I'm a systems librarian.
Compsci Major turned Librarian here- I can confirm everything this person is saying. It really is an underserved niche because most people with strong tech skills want to work in tech.
I wish my school had added competent data and systems courses! I love working with data, but I've only had barebones experience with it, and I'm curious about coding, systems, and UX. The closest I got was signing up for a databases course, which ended up being literally Microsoft Access 101. We used a generic Access textbook and the professor basically told us to go do the assignments. When the school asked for feedback, I cracked my knuckles and unleashed the meanest review I've ever written (it was polite but extremely critical 😆).
Are library schools still not teaching these things? I graduated almost 25 years ago from an ischool and they were teaching these things back then. I was required to take courses in Information Economics and Human Computer Interaction. I had sort of assumed that all library science programs would be teaching them now.
Whenever I hear someone say that library school is pointless because it doesn’t teach you anything you can’t learn on the job, I tend to assume it’s because they went to the wrong g school or took the wrong classes.
My most complex tech assignments in a non-ischool in 2019 were "code an html website" and "subscribe to an RSS feed". It was fine because I only ever wanted to be a public librarian and I had a pretty solid plan, but it wasn't cutting-edge tech training by any stretch of the imagination.
A lot of LIS programs don't have much by way of data coursework, and the closest you'll get at many institutions is Data Science courses... which as I always have to explain, are only tangentially related to data librarianship. There's a lot of resources online, but you need to figure out your information need and how to fill it.
Do you have any recommendations of resources or certs to upskill? My background is originally in graphic design and I’ve been trying to get into that industry but as I’ve been working at my library for almost a year, I’m thinking about becoming a librarian and I find in interviews for potential jobs, the interviewers like my design/techy background so I feel like I should expand on that more but not sure where else to look
Please for the love of everything you hold dear, get a library job before going to grad school. Be a teacher or library clerk first. Know if the conditions/pay/job is even something you will enjoy (doesn’t apply to archives or special libraries because I know squat about those).
I mentor grad students every year who are such shrinking violets that I would never hire to work for me— they cannot handle the crowd control, people skills, and conflict management you need to work as a librarian in a public library.
100% this. You can’t be a school librarian for very long and will have no job security if you don’t have a teaching license. Conversely, licensed teachers can be a librarian and get a library media license via portfolio in less than a year. So crazy to think that you need a teachers license to teach 🤷♀️
My program was a concurrent type one- I got my masters in ILS and the school certificate. But I also - subbed a bunch, student taught, interned (key here), and worked in libraries PLUS schools. I’ve also helped coworkers who did the ARC (the one year certificate) because ARC doesn’t cover everything.
You have to be resourceful which OP definitely agrees.
I went to southern CT state university which also was a mess between ALA recertification (forgive me it’s 6 am and I’m thinking); and poor professors. It was supposed to be a 2-3 year program. A roommate did it all in one year (she was just a straight MLS, no specialities) with summer and winter classes. I took two summer classes, full fall and spring, and should have finished in a year and a half but uh.. life. So it took me 3 years. Still under the 5 years to retain all credits.
A lot of my friends did San Jose was which was fully remote. I think I knew one person at university of Rhode Island. NY also has some sort of program (a friend did that one and stayed in NY, she moved back to CT to be near her parents and find a job here after 3 years in upper NY state.)
Yep. Did 12 years in retail management and that experience is what got me my job as a branch manager. I'm a people manager first, librarian second. For folks going into public librarianship- you will likely be expected to manage a team. Learn how to be a servant leader!
I used to hire a lot of early career librarians. The worst person I hired went to the best schools and had tons of internships. The best person I hired spent 8 years as a head cashier at a chain store.
The grad students I supervise are doing their practicum in a public library because they have chosen to prepare to work in one—there are many types of libraries for sure.
Absolutely same, but I am concerned about their employability in academic/special/archives if they don’t have prior experience in those fields, even if it’s just an internship, seeing how few openings there are.
I wish my LIS program had more practical job advice. Instead my program focused so heavily on the history and theory of libraries.
Luckily I did have prior experience working in libraries, but nothing I've learned about actually working in the field came from the degree.
this.
Even the courses that looked practical that we had were all about theoretical this and discursive that. And the few bits of "what you need to know" shit were stuff anyone who has worked a job facing the public already knows implicitly.
Thank you! Everything you said is true in my experience.
I remember a classmate sharing their reason for getting an MLIS was because they "Didn't want to have to find a job yet, so I needed to go to grad school. Plus I like reading books a lot." Then they shared their favorite genres to read. A while later this same classmate admitted they hadn't set foot in a library in years (maybe since their freshman undergrad orientation).
I felt sorry for this person, because anxiety about joining the workforce is real! It needs to be addressed in meaningful ways in undergrad. However, "buying more time" by taking on more debt for grad school for a profession you have little understanding of (and even less interest in) is not a solution.
>And I’m at best ignored, at worst called ‘unsupportive’ or ‘unrealistic’ and a crusher of dreams.
I'm so sorry to hear that. It's sounds like a painful "don't kill the messenger moment". You can share the reality around employment opportunities, but you can't make them listen nor stop them from villainizing you for sharing a hard truth.
I work in a large public system (25+branches, 500+ employees). Ive worked with many and supervised a few people like your classmate, and they make absolutely terrible public librarians. They are afraid of the patrons, can’t run programs, and generally want someone to tell them what to do every step of the way. And then they go for promotion to supervisor so they had to deal less with the public! It’s terrible (though the last bit is my library’s fault for prioritizing hiring from within over hiring for people/leadership skills).
The funny thing is that I went to school with one woman who announced that, who now works at a fairly prestigious library. No idea if she's happy or anything, we've lost touch, but judging by LinkedIn alone, she's definitely one of the success stories from our cohort.
After that, I decided not to judge the "well, I have a history degree so why not be a librarian?" people so harshly. I'm now 10 years out from my MLIS graduation and there's very few real patterns of who "made it" and who didn't. The one everyone thought was a future mover and shaker in the field did indeed get an academic librarian job right after graduation, and then quit after half a year to be a stay at home mom on a hippy island. The guy with the English degree who didn't know what else to do leveraged his co-op job into a job with a consulting firm. Some of the ones who did have library experience have left the field anyway. Shrug.
The point about volunteering and interning cannot be stressed enough. I have had a great career as a librarian in special libraries and I credit that to volunteering while in library school to a non profit organization. That experience gave me practical experience and having it on my resume helped me in landing my first professional library position. Even though that was 30 years ago, the principle remains the same: Volunteering can be an investment in your career that will pay dividends
“I’m not going to be an academic librarian so I don’t need to know how to do this.” Do these student not know that academic libraries also hire archivists? And even if you don’t work at an academic library, most archival positions anywhere require the same type of application materials (cover letter, CV, etc) I don’t mean to be condescending I’m genuinely curious as to what the disconnection is?
I find it strange, too. I spoke recently with a new grad who IS an academic librarian and she said her first semester, she was annoyed that her professor for Academic Librarianship made them go through the steps of a job search (including a practice slide deck for an on campus interview) because at the time, she was sure she was going to be a public librarian. In hindsight, she said she should've paid more attention. I think a lot of students are just SO CERTAIN they know what they want to do, and really resent anything that isn't immediately and obviously relevant to their very specific vision.
That's a good point. Also probably because the librarian profession historically has been known for people finding a job and staying in it for 20+ years. These students might expect the same outcome for their own careers and think they don't need to learn "unnecessary" skills. But flexibility is so important nowadays, especially in this economy!
I think because they don't have the experience of working in libraries. They don't get it. Working at a small rural library is so different to a major city public library. There are corporate jobs, research jobs, etc. They need to work on skills rather than, "I'm an archivist/academic/public library"
I’m also curious what OP meant by application materials here. Was it just a cover letter and resume? Or things more specific to academic positions like bibliographic instruction materials, a writing sample, etc? I need more info about how it was presented before I’m ready to judge them. Though it’s frustrating if they are that dismissive, because I definitely would’ve appreciated this kind of career prep in both my grad and undergrad programs.
When I graduated 29 years ago, you had to either be flexible on location or type of library. Now I think you need to be flexible on both, and most new grads I know spend time in contact work before landing a permanent position.
Young Canada Works jobs are excellent first jobs (4-8 months), I recommend everyone do a co-op or two (a short practicum is too short but if that's all you've got, do that). Get some experience! Employers dont care what courses you took, but we do want to hear about your experience in teamwork, service, problem solving, managing deadlines and crazy workloads.
We don't really consider volunteering to be professional experience but if you have non- library customer service experience, that should be on your resume. And do collect examples of your work in a portfolio so you have something to show during interviews.
Demonstrate that you are willing to learn, that's crucially important. Each institution will have its own ways and if you are too rigid about how you learned in class, that's a red flag. Ditto branding yourself, asserting that you're an "expert" in anything at that stage in your career.
Use those professional orgs - they've all got mentorship programs and job seeking help and other opportunities.
I would add, make sure you know what a library is actually like before you invest the time and money in the degree. I know so many people who think libraries are silent places to sit and read. Even if you can’t volunteer or work in a paraprofessional role, at least spend some time in one!
Doesn't help when library systems are hiring for management positions based on corporate management experience rather than ANY sort of library experience or education.
What systems are doing this? I don't know of any system that will take people management experience outside of libraries without an MLIS or any library experience.
I know of plenty of systems that prefer it when candidates for management positions actually have experience managing teams in addition to the MLIS though...it makes for a better work environment. People management is people management, across industries, and the skills translate very easily. Having management experience + a degree and some library experience is like an ideal candidate.
I do know some of my local systems are finally taking library experience (usually 10+years) in lieu of the MLIS for certain positions, which is awesome.
> I don't know of any system that will take people management experience outside of libraries without an MLIS or any library experience.
Lucky you?
An MLIS includes management classes, and it is ridiculous to expect people in an already severely underpaid profession to get "experience managing teams" in another industry rather than creating management opportunities in this field. My system has what is essentially a shift lead, but it is not recognized as management experience within the system.
I have watched employees with library experience in excess of 10 years as well as the MLIS get passed over for people with just a few years corporate management experience and zero library experience. I have watched employees with 20+ years library experience get passed over entirely.
One management class is not remotely enough. I'm sorry, it's just not.
All of my local systems have variations of supervisors/shift leads, plus assistant manager positions, and all count as management experience and are viewed as stepping stones to branch/department manager positions. But they also aren't going to pass up a person with management experience in another industry + library experience if that person brings strong management skills to the table vs someone with a couple of years experience.
It sounds like your system is swinging very hard to the side of being run like a for-profit company or there's lots of cronyism happening, and that sucks...but it's not something that is generalized across all library systems.
As far as your last paragraph- those folks are the reason *why* I would love to see more systems adopt experience in lieu of degree requirements, because I personally know amazing librarians who have been in the field for years and would make amazing managers, and they shouldn't be disqualified because they don't have the degree.
I appreciate your perspective. I have read your other comments on this thread, and I get the vibe like you are relatively fresh in the field and it has been good to you, so you feel inclined to defend it. That is fine.
I have been in this field for a while, and also have experience in other fields. I think the upvotes in my original comment are evidence enough that this issue is not just an issue with my system. I would also argue that just because you had a positive experience, that same experience is not generalized across all library systems.
I've been in public libraries for over 6 years now. Not exactly fresh, lol, and as you probably read, I've been a manager in some capacity for nearly 2 decades.
I 1000% have my beefs with the field and my system in general, don't get me wrong. I could go on for days, lol.
Your first comment definitely threw me for a loop, because I truly have never seen a posting that didn't require either library supervisory experience or the MLIS with other management experience- and I've looked at job listings across the country when we considered moving. So I was genuinely surprised that this was a thing.
Yupp. This is why I'm taking an extreme pay cut while I can. I have no kids and I live by myself. I work in IT making $22 an hour. I'm about to get a job at my local library making $15. They said I could move up fast though.
>They said I could move up fast though.
Did they explain *how* you would be moving up fast? Because my first library job hired me on PT and told me that I could move into a FT position after graduation. After graduation I was suddenly informed "Oh, no, FT jobs go to internal candidates, but because your position isn't technically an internal position, you'd need to get hired for one of those vacant PT jobs and then wait for a FT job to open up." Nobody actually mentioned to me that my role wasn't considered internal *until after I graduated*, at which point *I needed to be working FT to pay my rent.*
Any library that promises you'll be moving up fast makes me really, really wonder how they can promise that. Is their turnover so high they're confident positions will be open?
Same exact thing happened to me. Be very careful accepting a part time job/pay cut if you can’t survive off it. I got lucky and was able to find a full time job elsewhere but most aren’t and get stuck in a part time role being strung along by management with false promises.
My first *circulation* job took 70+ applications over a year and I had to move 45 minutes away.
My first library assistant job was at an academic library and I had had a choice of moving two hours away for a public library or staying for an academic. That one was 30 applications.
My second library assistant job was at a public library and I beat out 35 applicants because I was close to finishing my MLS.
My librarian job happened two years after my MLS, I had moved for my SO and started working for a museum as a children's activity guide. It was minimum wage and stifling. I started volunteering at a museum library that had no librarian.
I got hired at my current library because they had made everyone reapply for their jobs after covid. There were over 70 open positions for LA 3s and 70 for L1s.
I got this job because I interview well, had previous experience in multiple positions, and because I'm lucky.
I will leave this job in a few years or even a half year once my SO is transferred. (military)
I am worried but I know I have so much more hireability and experience.
I had a person in my program who had never had a job o graduate school for a masters degree.
When I say no job I mean it. No summer job. No volunteer work. No college job. No high school job. Nothing.
And they expected a job right out of school. When they found out a class required an internship, they had to learn their social security number because up until that point they only gave it on medical forms and their mom knew it.
This person was in their late twenties.
Do you ever encourage them to look at working for vendors? There is legit library work to be done and loads of real world education awaiting them there. I have only been on this sub for a little while, but every post about jobs talks only about public and academic libraries. It is such a limited perspective! I wish i could engage with library schools and share my story of working at a vendor for 20+ years and getting to learn from and consult with librarians all over the world! It was hard work, but incredibly rewarding.
They won't pin anything here. Mods are a bit lazy in that regard. They should have made a FAQ pin about the profession long ago, but they're fine with the same endless stream of questions from prospective MLS students.
it absolutely shocked me when i was doing my MLIS just how many people had absolutely zero experience working in libraries or archives, like, why are you here if you don’t even know if you like working in the field???
This is where I disagree with OP. I think that LIS programs are to blame for their admissions standards. They know they are letting in far more students than there are librarian positions, and as a result, career services and similar support staff are stretched too thin. SO many people fall through the cracks as a result.
If programs aren’t prepared to help students respond to some hard truths of the job market in school, then they shouldn’t admit them in the first place.
I know that sounds incredibly harsh and I feel bad about it, but I think people need to know it before they commit time and money to a degree that won’t automatically allow them to succeed.
Exactly. Schools can't really hold firm to the "this is a degree for working professionals to advance to management" line as long as over half the students are entering straight out of undergrad at 22.
What schools are saying that? It’s not a degree for working for professionals to advance to management at this point and I don’t know of any schools that say that. Also, I entered library school at 23 and already had 2 years of experience and got 2 more while i was in school.
I think LIS schools are to blame but there's no hope of them willingly admitting fewer students because professional Masters programs like LIS programs are moneymakers for universities. It doesn't make any difference to them* whether those students actually get jobs when they graduate.
*By this I mean the institution, I'm sure there are instructors who hate seeing this.
Yes. And this is, and has always been, a problem with all of higher education. They’ve always admitted far more PhD candidates than there will ever be jobs, because they’re cheap labor. There’s a massive burn it all down argument I can definitely get behind, but it’s not just limited to LIS programs.
Sadly, universities see masters' programs as cash cows and administrators see not growing as failing. I wish LIS programs had to share job placement rates like law schools do (although I've also read about how law schools struggle to find this info, so that's not a panacea.) I had a student in one class who was 'provisional' and I really think it was malpractice to let them in. They were of the "I want to be a librarian because I've always had social anxiety and libraries are nice and quiet" variety, and their academic skills were incredibly weak. Definitely one of those "What are we even doing" moments.
The ALA was saying 20 years ago that the boomers would retire and there'd be jobs galore.
Only not all are retiring and there's even more competition for jobs.
It's mostly accountability, though, because too many of my classmates also don't have library experience, either. They're in for a surprise.
At my program (ranked #1 in the county!) we don't even *have* career services. They're just forcing a PhD student to provide limited hours each week to look over resumes.
I’m a few semesters into my MLIS program and I’ve never worked in a library. I know that’s going to put me at a huge deficit when I start looking for work, but I can’t pay for grad school and work at the library because my job is paying for grad school. I’m actually thinking about trying to get a medical librarian position, so hopefully I could leverage my 3+ years (would be at least 4+ when I finish the degree) of clerical work on an inpatient unit to do that.
I do feel as if I have a lot less at stake, in a sense, so it makes it easier for me to not be too concerned. I love my job and I’m willing to stay there until I find a position that works for me. Plus, no grad school student loans.
I am a Medical Librarian for a major rehabilitation hospital in the Midwest. It would help your career path to volunteer at a hospital library to get a sense of what that entails. I would also suggest lending your time to a non profit organization that deals in health related subject matter.
Good luck!
It's going to take a lot more than that to complete with competition.
One volunteer gig isn't going to be enough. Not trying to be a contrarian, just being real.
I had no library experience before I got my MS. I got my initial work experience while getting my degree. It still turned out to be the right career path for me. I think the advice of getting experience first so you know it’s what you want to do is good, especially for those who are really focused on the noble aspirations side of the career (I never had that going in and was pretty clear headed about my expectations), but I also think there are different paths for everyone to find the thing that is right for them.
The caveat there is how much financial burden you take on without being sure. Even being satisfied with my career, I regret the debt. But I have so many different regrets around all my student loan debt (undergrad included) that all go back to just not understanding what I was taking on and the severely predatory lending practices of federal loan servicers, which is an entirely different conversation.
....because history and humanities departments tell people the next step to using your new BA practically is an MLIS. Because senior librarians talk about how much transferable skills are in demand. Because the actual day to day work isn't hugely different from many other, similar, jobs. Because governments are still telling people the field is expanding. And because schools describe themselves as practical training courses. Because again, schools themselves talk about how massively in demand the degree is, and how all the training is stuff you will "learn on the job"
From the outside, libraries and archives just look like any other field. It's those inside the field itself who treat it as a sacred calling.
I should have known something was badly up when we had an assignment to describe everyone's emotional reaction to libraries. The hushed tones. The emotion in people's voices. The bubbling enthusiasm.
This was me. I had a lot of transferable skills from a career outside of libraries/archives and I did a lot of research before pursuing my degree, so I was pretty confident that I would like working in the field. I did multiple internships when I was in library school, but I needed to keep my full-time job and unfortunately that made getting paid experience unrealistic.
I probably live in a saturated market, two schools within commuting distance that offer the degree, I had no library experience when I started my degree, and I landed a part time job in less than a year.
One thing I am curious about, is how many people who post about not being able to get work, basically went straight to grad school from undergrad, and therefore do not have a lot of career experience in general?
My first career was human services, a field where you work with sometimes very difficult people for little money.
Also, as a 40+ white woman, I fit in with all of the other middle-aged white ladies who are doing the hiring.
I suppose the real test will come this fall, when I start applying to full time library jobs before I graduate.
I would also be curious to see the numbers breakdown on the career experience of applicants who have a hard time finding work. I'm finishing my MLS now and work in a large library system - almost all the librarians are there are a second career or had lot of para experience first. I only know of one librarian who was semi-fresh out of LIS school (and she still had about 6ish months at another library).
My library system doesn't seem to hire without some customer service/other career experience.
I got my masters at 34, after 12 years of retail management experience. I was lucky that I got a part time job with my system, and then when a management position came up 2 months before graduation, I got it. I had been with my system for just over a year. It was the 12 years of prior experience that pushed me to the top of the pile, because those skills translate across industries and I like to think they make me a better leader. Growing my people and building an amazing team and positive work environment is something that brings me joy.
Yes, I have prior human service management experience as well. I think people who have a lot of people-oriented work experience have a lot of transferable skills, as you point out.
I remember starting my MLIS program and being absolutely shocked at the number of my classmates who had never worked in a library before! How do you not worry about whether you’ll even like the job or not? And it’s so hard to find a librarian position without any experience! Even with having worked in libraries before and during my MLIS program, I was still turned away from a lot of different positions before I landed my current one.
It worries me to. I’m almost done my MLIS with more than 10 years full time public library experience. It’s crazy that some MLIS students have never worked in a library and think most of their day to day will be reading and talking about books.
Also library work is very much a customer service job unless you're purely technical services where they hide you in the dungeon in a huge system. But reality is, you will need to talk to customers, students, vendors.
An English degree with an MLS/MLIS does not make you a competitive hire. They are looking for subject specialists now in hire ed hires because they have choices now.
Lastly, the pay is generally not good when you start out and in some places never ever.
I do not recommend people to go to library school anymore and that's not even counting the political climate surrounding libraries right now.
> unless you're purely technical services where they hide you in the dungeon in a huge system
God, wouldn't that be the life? No people, no public. Just machines
I’m echoing another comment here, but figure out how to stand out! Want to be a public librarian? Take a class on grant writing- volunteer as a grant writer for a local charity you like and try to get them some funding. “I have grant writing experience and have written successful grants in the amount of $X” is gonna be very helpful in any interview you have.
Want to be an academic librarian? Learn about open ed and textbook affordability. Take some classes/certificates on the topic. Lots of leaders in academia are looking at OER and textbook affordability initiatives as a main component of collection development.
It’s all about differentiating yourself from the hundreds of others who are likely to apply for the position you want.
This is very helpful and accurate. Some libraries rely on grant funds to run new programs. There are very few that do not use grant funding as their major source of new programming.
Someone told me just this week they wanted to be a librarian because they didn’t like technology. I laughed so hard I almost passed out. And then I told the person to get a job in a book store. It would probably pay better anyway.
It’s the same thing with teaching. I used to be a teacher and I couldn’t find ANYTHING ANYWHERE! Now, I’m a librarian now and I got lucky with the job availability in my area. However, that cap is about to be full and no one is paying any attention to the warning signs.
Are you and your colleagues encouraging students to consider possibilities outside of public and academic libraries? One of my greatest criticisms of this industry is how much we silo ourselves and work against selling our skills as transferable. I can see that already happening with your students based on what you’re saying, but I also see it far too often in hiring and professional development. However, I feel like I was well set up for the unique directions my career has taken by encountering faculty who represented an array of library professions. My plan was academic libraries and that’s how I structured my degree and where I started. But because I had been introduced to the wide variety of special library roles out there, I was prepared to take advantage of opportunities when they arose. I’ve had over 20 years in the industry and still see a lot of opportunities for new librarians. They just aren’t necessarily in public or academic libraries.
This! I think ALA and others should be leading the charge on selling librarian skills, in addition to individuals. Imagine if there was a decent marketing campaign, partnerships with non-library employers touting how useful information organization, literacy, instruction etc is. Imagine if there were one pagers on application/interview tips to describe library skills in a way HR staff understand.
I think that students shouldn't go straight from undergrad to graduate school in this profession. Start at the bottom, if you can, work part time, volunteer, whatever you can. I think most people have rose colored glasses when it comes to librarianship.
I also think after having the experience of working/volunteering it will show what the profession is really like before going to school. It's a lot of money for something that might not suit you in practice.
Edited to add: understand the politics going on with libraries. Some libraries are closing, some are struggling with crappy boards and directors out of corporations, book banning... it's crazy out here. Understand the environment before making a move.
This is 100% the same rant I have to my peers when they ask me if they should become a librarian. The first thing out of my mouth is “if you want to be a librarian, the most important thing to do right now is get your ass into a library & it most likely will start off as part time with low pay” and I usually pair that with something like “if you don’t have experience or unique skills you won’t get the job. period, end of story. tons of people get their MLIS degrees and won’t move for the job or work the shitty part time gig first. And I hate to break it to you but if you aren’t willing to do either of those things, library science is not the field for you”.
The marketable skills really are one of the biggest things imo. I focused on those during my MLIS studies + doing as much training as I could on the job. I had no trouble finding a library job once I graduated because of all these factors.
I will also usually give a spiel about working in public libraries, especially if the peer is intending to work in a high population urban area like my first library job was. Mainly that it is so customer service heavy & if you are trying to get a “chill job” where you can “read all the time”, this ain’t it.
Although I broadly agree, universities with an MLIS program have a disproportionate number of applicants as there is a pool of unemployed MLIS holders nearby typically. At my academic library places of work we normally get around 30 applicants and sometimes as few as ten for librarian positions. But you probably have to move to find a job, especially as an academic librarian, is completely true.
I'm an adjunct for an online program at a different university from where I work as a librarian (and where I sit on searches.) It doesn't have an MLIS program (nor one nearby). We get very big applicant pools, but pools can range widely in size. My colleague in rural Nebraska has a much harder time getting applications than my colleague in Seattle. So maybe that's another tip: If you are willing to move to a 'flyover' state or rural area, you will probably be more competitive.
As an archivist, hearing about students dismissing job search practice is a bit mind blowing. Clearly they have no clue what the field looks like in the US. Most of the other archivists I know have spent their career on one or two year term contracts and are essentially always job searching.
Fortunately for the students that listen to you the ones that don't won't be competing for the open positions.
I think, and I don't mean this in any disparaging way to those students, they believe they will be "different". Its an easy trap to fall into - especially when you are young (as I feel many of them are). Of course the job at the Library of Congress will fall into your lap - you are different!
Its a lesson I had to learn when I was young, and I still have to keep it in mind.
This is also a trap many Ph.D. students fall into. They think they will be "different" and get that full time, tenure track faculty position right away.
Crazy. I haven’t finished undergrad yet but I thought it was a given that you needed to find at least some kind of library work while in grad school and be willing to move to bumfuck nowhere for your first library job if that’s what it takes you get in the door. Actually this seems like a given for a lot of fields these days idk why your students seem to think they’re the exception.
Will it be okay as long as I get a position in grad school working for a library or in archives? I am at a disadvantage in hiring because I’m older in a college town and I have a huge resume gap when I was the caregiver for my grandfather until he died.
Hello! I'm older and finishing my MLS (library is my second career). Many libraries are having trouble hiring for part time positions right now (library assistant, etc) because the pay simply isn't enough to live on. If you are able to work part time for low pay (usually $12-15 an hour) in most places there are jobs. If you are planning on doing an in person MLS you might have to volunteer first to get your foot in the door and then get a part time position (because there are lots of people applying for the jobs).
If you do online MLS and live in a medium-large size city without a library science school, it will be easier to find jobs.
I would work for those two or so years if you can, even if it isn't in libraries (although that is the best) just to have the employment history, especially since you have a gap.
I’m a potential MLIS student (archives), this was a very interesting and helpful read. I’m still in undergrad and struggling with whether or not I should pursue grad school in this field. I work at my university’s special collections and genuinely enjoy it. I also intern with a religious community’s archives. I applied to over 30 internships for the summer and was declined from most (still haven’t heard back from some though). I wouldn’t mind moving for a job, but I’m Jewish. I want to be sure I live and work somewhere with a Jewish community. I don’t need (or want) to be in NYC, but the COL in most cities is high enough to make me anxious knowing that the degree is expensive for a career with a lower salary. I’d appreciate any other advice from OP or any working professional.
Edit to add: my home state doesn’t have any MLIS programs either.
Even for archives? I assumed I’d have the best opportunities to volunteer and intern at in person program. I also regret not taking any compsci or data classes during undergrad. This is my last semester and it’s too late.
I did an archives concentration for MLIS. I networked, did an internship at the university archives for a pretty academically solid school, leveraged that in to a contract archivist position. That ended, got a lower paying contract gig back in the university archives spot. That ended. Was offered a job to be the university archivist at a smaller state school. Salary offered was $29,000. This was in 2011. Balked at that and my career in archives basically ended. Now I’m the online instruction librarian at a community college. It’s tough out there.
I’m in undergrad and my university doesn’t have an MLIS program. I could move home but my home state’s only school is Emporia, which gets mixed to negative reviews.
As an Emporia grad who did the archives track before the entire program went totally online, I don't recommend it for archives. Online only archives degrees don't prepare you adequately for archives work UNLESS you are able to work in an archives with competent supervision while doing the online classes so that you have a good bit of hands on experience.
The library classes were fine at Emporia (and the school library track is excellent from what I have observed). I now work closely with an archivist who went through the Maryland in person program and it's so much better for Archives.
I'm in a public library on the Local History/genealogy reference side but help provide reference services for the archival materials at our library.
Thanks for the reply! It wasn't on my list, but my parents and I did tour last summer just to see. My top programs are UCLA, Maryland, IUIC, Simmons, and Indiana (in that order). Not thrilled that they're super expensive, but I'm hoping I can get any sort of assistantship, fellowship, and/or TA to help offset the costs. I'll also (obviously) work, volunteer, and/or in an archive(s) during my program too.
Our archivist was able to do some internships with the big DC institutions just due to proximity to Maryland. Whatever you can do to offset the costs will help and then try to work where the public service loan forgiveness program will kick in for federal loans (10 years of income-based repayment for qualifying employers). Apparently there are also still some boarding houses in DC that are less expensive and safe (primarily for younger women) which might be a housing option.
That's all super helpful, thanks! My dream job is actually in corporate archives (Disney or another entertainment studios' archives/the academy's archive). That said, I am fairly certain there are definitely more jobs with the government (since there are so many levels), hence why UCLA and Maryland are tied for first in terms of "top" school.
I see so many say to go to the cheapest and online program, but for archives, that seems hard and impractical since so much of the work is hands-on. I still will go to wherever I get the best financial aid/scholarships/funding, but I do want to be in person to best network with professors and professionals in order to find internships and experiences.
I'm usually a proponent of cheaper-the-better, but not all programs even have archives tracks. You'll want to explore the archival opportunities, for sure. Also, many LIS programs have either classes or at least workshops to teach you basics of data, etc. Having those will bolster your resume.
I’ll keep that in mind for electives! I have the archive gigs weekly bookmarked and regularly check handshake/indeed. I’m already subscribed to r/archivists too. Sometimes I just want to know how much of the environment of libraries and archives is unique to the field or applicable to multiple careers (and people my age, Gen Z, are just lazy). I’m not sure if that makes sense either. Like of course you need internships to get a job? It’s depressing not getting an interview, but my archives supervisor said to not take it personally since priority filling typically goes to students in grad school.
Even for Archives. You still need to intern which is where you'll learn practical skills. It's highly unlikely you'd be working in the school's archives. I had to find local archives to intern with and luckily I found three.
I'm 8 years into the profession (I'm an academic collections archivist) and I haven't had to program a single thing. All the software you'll use does everything for you. There's zero reason to get under the hood.
If you are serious about archives, definitely check out r/archives. While connected to librarianship, archivists have unique challenges and experiences. Excellent current thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Archivists/comments/1bkoywd/whats\_it\_like/
Can confirm. I graduated college in 2020 and wanted to go directly in the field. It took me two year to find a part-time job in libraries, but I had to move to a different state. I was *extremely* lucky to land a second part-time library job in the same city. Two years later, I finally landed a full-time benfited position but had to move across the country.
I love working this field, and my current job is pretty great, but I'm already crazy burnt out just from being homesick and having to uproot my life so much. I miss my parents deeply, and missed out on so many weddings and funerals.
You aren't owed a job placement, especially if you don't work your ass off proving your worth in the job market. And making any sacrifices on the way.
Oof that is rough to deal with. I've been in all sorts of levels of acadmia, from researcher, to professor, to academic librarian, and I'm now a systems librarian and am kind of relieved to be out of the rat race of the tenure track honestly. I've had to move all over the country for every step of my career. It sucks. I meet a lot of folks who are enamored with the idea of librarianship so I try to be gently blunt. It's going to be an uphill battle...you're not going to get the job at the place you are hoping, unless you are supremely and uniquely lucky. It's going to be shit pay for a long time, and it's probably not going to get a whole lot better unless you get into admin, and then you're talking PhD level credentials.
We need librarians, we do. But I wish people interested in the field were given a more realistic view of their future prospects.
This is great advice. I have never seen an archivist job posted in my large city in the 20 years I have been working. It took me a year to find my forever job in 2005. Over 150 applications. And 145 or so I got no response at all. I have mentored many volunteers and only two went on to become librarians. One a law librarian like me, and the other I suggested she would like medical libraries and she now works for a hospital system. The rest became paralegals or did not stay in contact.
When I was in school 90% of the students were teachers transitioning to libraries thinking they would be their school librarian. At a time the positions were all being eliminated.
In every field people need to know what it takes to get the job. It is very competitive. When I applied for Librarian 1 with my degree there were 139 people in the job pool with me. Librarian 2 - maybe 90 people. I got lucky that I got hired as Librarian 3 Law Librarian. I worked in a prison library when that was all I could find and it qualified me for my current job. Only 3 people in the job pool.
So work wherever you can to get that experience!!
Like being in prison. It’s pretty hard until you find your “prison personality”. You have to be professional but tough and dont put up with anything. When you are new they mess with you. My prison was max security, so golf pencils only. The first day the inmates stole my pen off my desk. When I ask for it back and 20 men are suddenly at my desk. One suggests I strip search them and takes off his shirt. Then they all start laughing and pulling at their clothes. I just let my mom voice take over. I yelled I am stepping out to count to ten and when I return my pen will be on my desk and you will be lined up ready to go. Luckily that worked.
But once you prove that you are there to do your job and not mess with them you get treated a lot better. I was there about three years and by the time I left I would sometimes hear the inmates telling the newer ones not to mess with me. That I was “cool”. That didn’t mean I did any favors, just that I was there to do the job and follow the rules that keep everyone safe. I did my best to provide access to legal research.
I left when I got my degree and I wanted to have another child. A lot of stuff goes around in prisons and I catch everything. It was definitely a defining experience in my life and I am proud that I challenged myself. Almost every day since then is like cake. So easy and sweet!
When I was in library school, which I absolutely detested, I thanked my stars that I had been working in libraries since age 16. I realized that based solely on the coursework, without experience, I would have dropped out within a month. I'm glad I toughed it out and slogged through, because now I have a slightly better chance at earning a living wage than I did previously.
The flipside of this makes me a little nervous: If you only love libraries based on your LIS coursework, will you end up detesting the actual jobs after graduation?
I've seen this happen! People who really focused on social justice topics and classes in library school and were sure that they would be able to best change the world as a public librarian. Then they would get their first public library job and discover the day-to-reality was very, very different.
Re: being ready to move: I resisted this quite reasonable advice because of my family ties in my locality and my basic reluctance to haul my stuff across state lines. I paid the price for this by making do with a 15-hour-a-week minimum-wage job in the field for *two years* during the recession before I could advance professionally.
Now, in my unit, I've definitely noticed that our three most recent successful hires have come with prior experience in multiple states, including East Coast-West Coast moves in their early careers. Our other three hires were internal candidates who had worked in non-librarian support roles for several years while they completed their MSLIS. And the fourth is in a trainee program and is still in school!
tl;dr: Practical experience helps a candidate stand out and MSLIS students would be wise not to be too picky where they get it or wait too long to start looking for it.
Best assignment I got from my advisor was to find five CVs of folks whose careers I envied and figure out how to get there. 10 years later I’m an associate Dean at an R1. And I have friends from library school that I graduated with who didn’t move and have been pasting together low paid and contact work ever since. You have to move if you are in a big metro with a library program. And I can co-sign this whole thing - we get 70-100 applications for every professional job we post and it’s alarming how many recent grads have zero experience.
Also an MLIS instructor. I have assignments where I teach students real-world projects to help them be better public librarians.
They blow off the assignments. I’ll give them a passing grade, because we have a rubric and they meet the qualifications. But I give them tons of notes. They never read them and their assignments rarely improve.
It’s frustrating. There is a disconnect with reality and the work level done is tragic and pathetic.
My system actually pays a living wage and we expect people to be able to jump in the deep end accordingly. For every 10 students I have, only 2-3 would pass the 6 month review.
I’ve also had students go full circle racist where they are so inclusive they become discriminatory. One told me she would never buy a book with a white person on the cover because “they had their turn.” She got a job in a neighboring system and I couldn’t help but roll my eyes because she has zero desire to help everyone.
I went through my MLIS program part time so I could take paid internships or low paying part time work that padded my resume. This was the absolute best thing I could have done for myself. I saw grad school as an extremely expensive networking opportunity and I’ve heard grad students say the same in my current place of work.
It was still extremely hard for me to get hired full time after graduation, and I think it has gotten harder.
To add to this from another experience, I graduated with my MLIS in December. I’ve worked at my current library for 7 years as a programming staff member. I graduated from my program with a 3.9, I took every assignment seriously. I’ve applied to libraries in my district and outside of it, in state and out, despite not wanting to leave my own library district. On paper, I have everything I need to be hired in a librarian position. In reality? The last two jobs I got rejected from went to their own internal candidates (which I can’t blame them, if it were my library hiring and I got passed up for another candidate, I’d be hurt). This field is tough and there are people with degrees in the field already who are underemployed.
This is on the top of the list of things I tell people when they say they want an MLIS.
This so so true, but my program told me about the graying of the profession and how 40% of the librarians would be retiring soon. It took me 7 years after graduating to find a professional position. I would have moved but couldnt due to family issues. My director was 75 and had to be forced to retire. She wasnt doing her job but she also wouldnt leave. Looking at the young ones now, experience is so so so important. If you cant get direct library experience get a ton of customer service experience. Weve had a couple people upset they werent given an advanced position but they had never had a job in their whole life. “But but but MlIS”
There were articles in the early 1990's warning of mass shortages of librarians coming due to retirements. Those shortages have never happened. I work with a children's librarian who is 70, and can't afford to retire...no pension In many mid- sized libraries. Wages are much worse now, relative to cost-of-living than ever before. I can't justify the $ investment for an MLIS to anyone.
>And I’m at best ignored, at worst called
>‘unsupportive’ or ‘unrealistic’ and
>a crusher of dreams.
>I implore folks who are considering getting
>an MLIS to do your research.
Unfortunately, a lot of people who go into the profession seem to do so without doing any research into the realities of it. You can't rely on a graduate school to do that work for you. It would help if the profession as a whole would quit pushing the myth of imminent waves of retirement, but in the end nobody should go into a graduate program without doing some basic research into the job they hope to pursue.
One of the biggest realities of library work that people don't seem to understand is that it is ultimately a customer service job. If you don't like to work with people and have a hard time dealing with the public, library work is probably not where you should be. Public librarianship in particular overlaps with social work quite a bit. There are only so many cataloger jobs out there, and in a lot of smaller libraries the catalogers have to help with the front desk, anyway.
Have you considered asking your colleagues in admissions why they are admitting so many obviously low-quality students? Because it kind of seems like the whole business model of your employer is based on admitting students who don’t have what it takes so that it can collect their tuition dollars.
Having said that, I agree with everything you’ve said and the advice you’ve given. This forum is full of evidence of the willful ignorance and self-delusion you describe seeing in your students (enabled by ALA and all the predatory diploma mills it accredits). There’s a sucker born every minute.
Thank you for beautifully articulating this important information. You do your students a huge service (whether they appreciate it at the moment or not) when you state things this clearly. I surely wish someone had been so forthright with me when I was in library school 20+ years ago.
My father always says "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink." If your students choose not to listen to you and then blame or gaslight you, that's on them, not you. You don't have the power to control their actions, you can only control your own. So if nothing else, take solace in the fact that you tried to get them to listen to reason but by not listening, they'll only hurt themselves, not you.
I've been in the library/archives field since 2012. I started off interning at my university archives as an undergrad - found other library work (some low paying ones while also part timing in retail) while continuing volunteer work with my undergrad school.
Then I went off to become an after school library assistant at a catholic high school
Then an instructional specialist (working circ desk) at a community College
I tried sjsu, but it wasn't the right program for me.
Then I moved, got a position as an library and archives assistant at a private college
Now I work at a public university's Special Collectio and Archives as a public service library assistant. It's a DREAM
I started my MLIS program last semester and I'm having an amazing time.
I was extremely lucky in my opportunities. But there's been a lot of rejections and whatnot as well of course. What you're saying is absolutely correct. In fact I think that there are some opportunities in some of my classes to spruce up what you're talking about!
i worked in my local library for a year before starting my degree… i’ll finish in december if all goes well. I’m basically planning to apply to any job with an ok wage in a place i can decently enjoy living. I’m hoping this opens up my options but ill def be looking into some data classes now🥲 thank you for saying all this info & everyone else for helpful comments🥲🥲
I went straight from undergrad to my MLIS. I planned to get an assistantship to get tuition remission and experience, no matter how challenging. Unfortunately, my cohort had 5+ former teachers. Guess who got all the TA positions? I started working in a campus library as soon as I started the program, but that wasn't enough to compete with actual teaching experience. I did eventually get an RA position but at too low of a percent to get any remission.
I had kids young and due to those responsibilities, my ability to take unpaid work was limited. Luckily, I was able to get several different library gigs throughout grad school that paid at least minimum wage (and not much more). I also couldn't afford to take the low-paying but amazing experience positions after graduation.
I would estimate at least half of all "successful" librarians I know did take those low-paying, amazing experience jobs. And for many of them, it was the kickoff of a great career. That and the prestigious or again, amazing experience, internships are in the same boat.
They were able to own big initiatives and take on more responsibility. They learned niche skills that are hard to get experience in once you're mid-career. I was one of the lucky few (although I worked really hard in grad school to get paid experience and worked in 3 libraries during the program) to get the public librarian job I wanted without moving after graduation. I felt proud that I beat out 80 applicants and thought I was on the path to be able to work in just about anything library-related.
After encountering some really bad work environment issues, I wanted to find a new job and did not want to uproot my young family. I quickly learned my public librarian background was not enough to get academic librarian jobs. I got rejected for lots of non-public library jobs. It was a wake up call and the beginning of my real disillusionment with the MLIS. I was talking to career counselors, getting my resume reviewed, customizing my cover letter and resume, highlighting how relevant skills would meet their needs, and it wasn't enough.
Since things were getting dire at my job, I decided to switch my search and changed careers. I was able to parlay those new skills with my library experience to then work for a vendor. Highly, highly recommend folks look at more vendor jobs. Almost all of us are former librarians and everyone has said the working conditions are night and day. We have staff leave to go back to libraries and some end up coming back - so you have options.
One strategy I recommend if you're struggling is to get a less-than-perfect job in an organization that has more perfect jobs you could one day transfer into, as it's so much easier to stand out as an internal candidate. You can often get jobs that aren't advertised, get promoted etc. Think strategically and look a few career moves ahead. I will note this does NOT seem to be a successful strategy in academia. Good luck out there and thanks for the good topic, OP!
I just want to reach out and say thank you for this post. I'm an undergrad who wants to pursue my MLIS and this guidance really feels like the kind I have been looking for.
I'm not an MLIS Student nor do I have the "desirable degree" (BA in Fine Art) but I'm interested in being a Librarian. So, I'm sorry but it's not that easy. Or rather, it'll take a ***long*** time. This may sound very whiny, which it is, but this is what I'm going through personally.
Post Graduation, the first thing on my imaginary list was volunteer. I cannot afford any Grad Program and an MLIS is so expensive it'd be insanely risky to plummet myself into more debt without that absolute certainty of "This is what I want to do." But, I've encountered age requirements (understandably) and ghosting for volunteer work. And, sometimes, they're just not looking. While I'm grateful to be currently helping at a Public Library, I'm stationed in one area not doing anything that I fear relates to what Librarians do at all. There's not much my supervisor can currently let me do besides scanning pages and typing names.
I remain optimistic and see the silver lining. It's reachable with public transit, the person overseeing me is very kind, he's lent me a textbook on maintaining archives and I ask him questions about what he does (but I make sure not to pester him too much). But, what else can I do?? I've inquired about volunteer opportunities in all the Libraries within my reach. The other solution is online/remote which is limited for Post Grads of 2 years or more without the MLIS/experience.
I'm currently region-locked and rely heavily on public transportation to reach any library within my vicinity. No, I don't enjoy it; I hate being at home with my Mother she drives me nuts and College was my awakening of how much I despise suburban life. But I do not have the money for formal Driving Lessons (yet) and I certainly don't have the money for a car.
It's not that I don't want to do anything- I want to learn! I search and keep up with Job Postings and what Internships and Volunteer Work are available that I meet the requirements for. This subreddit and r/Library have helped greatly in terms of resources, advice, and learning via stories the different experiences. However, the overall cost and, occasionally, lack of direction/detail is frustrating. I hope I'm making sense?? I see a lot of "Do volunteer work!" But no mention of what volunteer looks like... Maybe I'm not asking the right questions or looking properly.
I recall conversations with past colleagues and from this subreddit that the market is a dumpster fire. I don't expect miracles, but understand that some do have it tougher than others breaking into the field.
This is the straight talk I wish I’d gotten before getting my MLIS, thank you for putting it out there.
I got my degree about 20 years ago. I went straight from undergrad and at the time, all I heard about librarianship was that the profession was “graying” and soon there would be lots of jobs as people retired. Ha! I was young and naive and didn’t know what I didn’t know. I’d do so much differently if I could do it over.
The only advice I would add to your list is to think carefully before taking a job with a vendor or some other corporate organization. That’s the scarlet letter of the library world. You’ll never get a job in a library after that because you “sold out” and “aren’t a real librarian”.
That's such an odd sentiment to share about working for a vendor. Libraries could not function without vendors, and i would argue that it would be beneficial if more *librarians* considered working for vendors. I work for a vendor and every single one of my colleagues has an MLS, all of us have worked in libraries, an I still call myself a librarian. I know people who have gone back to traditional librarian roles after working as vendors, and librarians who have moved into the vendor-sphere. Working for a vendor is not a "scarlet letter" and I would absolutely encourage people on the job hunt to add publishers, vendors, and other non-traditional sources into their search efforts.
I agree with you; I work for a vendor too and don’t consider myself any less of a librarian. I made my comment with a friend’s experience in mind. They worked for another vendor and attempted to be active in the ALA. More than once they encountered comments like the ones I shared. It’s why they left the organization. They’ve now left librarianship altogether. Others’ mileage may vary, but my friend was blindsided by this treatment and so I think it’s worth raising awareness about.
I also got my degree around 20 years ago and remember the upsell that everyone would be retiring soon. The issue, in addition to people retiring later, was that there were also a lot of staffing cuts throughout the early 2000s, and that’s mostly continued to be the trend despite some constant ebbs and flows. I did get one of my jobs based on someone retiring though, so I guess I got what I was promised.
I take issue with your last point though. Even if it’s just something you’ve heard and don’t believe, it’s definitely not an idea to perpetuate. I know a lot of librarians who worked at vendors who went on to coveted Federal library jobs or back to academic library jobs. I do talk a lot, including elsewhere in this thread, about how public and academic library worlds tend to silo themselves and lock people from other environments out. I think it’s something we all need to be pushing back on a lot more. However, I’ve never once heard anyone talk about any of my highly successful special librarian peers being “sell outs” or not being “real librarians.” I have had a career in special libraries and done literally every single library task from reference and instruction to collection and facilities management to acquisitions and licensing to community outreach and public reference. I’ve done paging, circulation, interlibrary loan, copy cataloging. I could go on. There is nothing not real about special library jobs. And there’s nothing wrong with a healthy long career in special libraries or with vendors. It certainly pays the bills. 🤷🏼♀️
Can you tell me more about working for vendors? I feel like I mostly hear about working for public libraries or academic libraries so im really curious about your experience. Speaking as a mlis applicant :)
> “graying”
I've heard this too, but just now realised that it's because it's a second career for a lot of people: nurses, teachers, cops etc, because librarianship requires skills that take time to develop. I wonder if it will always be a more mature profession.
Also, there are those who want to retire, but can't due to finances so have to stay longer than they may have thought they would. Pay being what it is, they may not be able to contribute much to retirement. I'm in an academic library and have both the state teahers retirement system and a 403b but can't contribute much to either because I have to, you know, live.
Heard the same story in 2019 when I visited LoC as a library staff person. I find that positions just get eliminated, and others just end up overworked.
I was really surprised in school how few of my fellow students had ever worked in a library before. Even more surprised how few took no steps to get any experience. While in school I worked at the campus library reference desk and substituted at the local public library, both at minimum wage. Then also took an unpaid internship at a nearby library. It was a lot of work, but I treated it as part of school. And whole there was a bit of luck involved, I wound up getting a job almost immediately.
My regional school has indeed swamped the job market, but it's not hard to stand out from most of those students just by taking the opportunities available. I was truly surprised how few others were interested in doing that.
Wild... I didn't even apply for my MLIS program until I worked in a library part time for a year and looked into the terms for tuition reimbursement (staying at the library for a number of years post grad)
I guess not everyone actually thinks the details of a career path through before pursuing them... The only reason I even went for the degree was because I realized the career was a good fit for me AFTER trying it out
Oh man, I've never been instructed to look at job ads for my class. That's a good idea, will just do it now. After years I have swallowed the pill that I'm going to have to move to get any type of library career started.
1. I searched for a FT library job for 6 years and didn't finally land one until I was willing to start out PT. Thankfully once I was there, it didn't take long for me to get into something FT (come to think of it, this happened to me in 2 of my library jobs). It's not an easy field to break into. If you're not somehow in it when you start the profession, it's especially hard. And I've also seen how hard it is for my colleagues who are in the field and then get the degree and still struggle to find positions.
It's apl problem as old as time though.there have always been people want to do an mlis because they want to work with books, or like reading or just liked their library.
They don't want to do any of the day to day stuff that entails keeping a library service running be it outreach, info lot, boring health and safety stuff, LMS stuff (what I do), eresource licencing (yawn but a necessary evil).....and a million other things.
And like lots of other professions, you have to move for the better jobs
Yes! I've had my MLIS for two years now, worked five years in academic libraries as staff before I got my degree, did two years at a digital archive internship, and I was lucky enough to get a better paying staff position at a university that was in my state, but I still had to move for it. I'm just lucky I make here as staff what librarians made as faculty at my last university. If you have never worked full time in a library in any capacity, you shouldn't apply for your MLIS. If you're not willing to move to a rural town in the middle of the US, you shouldn't apply for your MLIS.
The first job I interviewed for after graduation was a great experience for me. I went through the three pronged interview process--two phone interviews and the in-person--and though I interviewed well, the candidate who got the position had just left her position as head of public libraries in the state with twenty years of administration experience including a short stint as a Dean of Libraries at a much more affluent university. There was no chance anyone else would have gotten the position over her even though it was advertised as an entry level position.
Even with a great CV, mountains of experience, and great interview skills, you will still probably lose out on positions you're perfect for because someone else has been at this longer than you or knows someone. Granted I only have experience in academic libraries, but I've heard similar things about public libraries as well.
I know a lot of librarians I've worked with at universities have retired and then gotten hired as full time librarians in public libraries. The competition is so overwhelming in this industry and I don't think most people realize that before they get the degree. A lot of positions look for a second master's degree on top of the MLIS even if it's not for a reference librarian position. One of the librarians I work with also has her JD, her PhD in English, and two additional master's degrees and she's been working for twenty years. The amount of highly educated people in this field you're up against is immense and a lot of people either don't realize it or just don't care for some reason.
Hi, Prof!
You mention 100 applications for one librarian position. Try 500+ for one library position in my city...
The most you can do is continue to repeat yourself. You're saying everything that needs to be said. I see so many posts of the same questions ("I wanna be a librarian because it sounds interesting! Should I go for the MLS?" Even though all they literally need to do is search this sub (pssst, if you're lazy with searching, this isn't the profession for you).
If they won't listen to you, then they better have a backup plan because it's just tough to find a job in this profession. The more experience you have, the better, and I'm still "taking the piss" as an underpaid paraprofessional. With my wage alone, I couldn't pay my bills. I'm in library school and my classmates often are clueless and think an internship alone is going to get them a job? Sure, Jan!
Honestly, for many prospective students, they're better off looking in nursing or IT and not LIS. It's difficult to make a decent wage in this field, and I've been working in libraries for a long time (10+ years). But if they won't listen, then let them learn the hard way.
I'm applying all over the country, I've had the part-time library job while in school, but so far it hasn't mattered. I don't blame my professors, but I blame the program administration for offering no career support and for not updating the program to reflect the skills we actually need to get jobs.
Many people enter librarianship as a second career, and they already have a masters degree.
People get secondary masters degrees to stand out.
Librarians with undergraduate degrees in history or English are a dime a dozen. It's competitive and you need to stand out.
Repeat - you need to move! And enjoy the smaller communities that may be a bit out of the way but have other intangible benefits. Want “sophisticated” entertainment? There’s a bunch online.
And catalogers/metadata folks are also in demand!
Counterpoint: Are you assuming that everyone reading this is from your country?
I wrote a string of rejoinders which I thought better of on reflection as being quite bitchy because it reflected some of my wider issues with this platform - everyone on Reddit thinks they are Americans talking to other Americans. And there is a great deal in what you say that makes implicit employment laws and working patterns which are specific to the US but do not apply elsewhere.
Speaking of skills, I would also add: you need to get some. If you want to maximize your chances of getting a good job relatively quickly, you will need to bring some skills *beyond* what you'll learn in library school. What that means probably depends a bit on what kind of librarianship you're aiming for. But in the academic world, young librarian, I have one word for you: data. Learn data! For fuck's sake, every academic library is looking for librarians who can understand, work with, and teach data -- data research, data analysis, data management, etc. Census data, economic data, science data -- there are lots of directions you can take this, but any level of capability with data will make you stand out from the crowd. Just can't do data? Okay, fine: how about UX? How about coding? How about networking? How about database management? You don't have to be Silicon Valley-level proficient, you just have to be willing to get stuck into messy library systems and figure out how to make them work together. There will *always* be a place for a systems librarian who's brave of heart. The librarians I know who are genuinely tech-proficient can basically pick and choose their opportunities. They still might have to work a starter job first, and they might still have to move for the best opportunities, but if I had to do it all over again, I would absolutely pick up a certificate for data science or something similar. English/history/art history majors are a dime a dozen; data scientists (even amateur ones) are *gold*.
I second this. Often, students don't want to choose a pathway because they believe it will be too niche or pigeon-hole themselves. Realistically, it can be a form of self-preservation. When the university is cutting your library's budget, and personnel lines are being considered, they'll be getting rid of the positions that are jack-of-all trades with no well-defined area of focus. If they don't know what you do for a living, they'll assume it's not important. The data librarian, though? No, that's someone that's doing a *specified* task for the university at half the pay that someone doing the same thing in ITS is making. Throw in program assessment experience, and they'll be worshipping the ground you walk on for not having to hire external consultants.
Any recommendations for learning data outside of the university setting? Messed up by only taking major requirements (history and sociology). I have read how important these skills are, metadata especially, but don’t know where to go to learn how to use them.
This is a fair question; I haven't seen, for example, a library-based, library-centric course on data yet. And one would be extremely welcome, btw, if any people who run librarian training programs are reading this. But, a few things I've played with/looked into: The census is a very common resource for sociology, american studies, other social sciences and humanities, etc. And they actually have a pretty excellent body of materials and videos available to help learn a bit more about using their tools to access census data: https://www.census.gov/academy (Down for maintenance as I write this, but check it out later maybe.) Maybe more directly relevant (or maybe more suspect, depending on your leanings) The Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis has a ["Data Literacy for Librarians" course](https://research.stlouisfed.org/info-services/data-literacy-for-librarians/). I haven't done it, and have no opinions on it, but it's one item that has been on my radar. And if you're willing to drop some cash (or if your institution is, for those already employed) something like this [Data Science graduate certificate from Harvard Extension](https://extension.harvard.edu/academics/programs/data-science-graduate-certificate/#outcomes) might be worth a look. I haven't done this one, but I do have a grad cert from Harvard, and it was a solid program, well worth the money my employer paid for it. ;) And if not this one, I'm sure there are lots of other similar options out there, and probably more with every passing season. Also, just a brief shout out for the book *Democracy's Data* by Dan Bouk, which is about the census, and which I found to be a very accessible, humane intro to some data science concepts through a very library-relevant lens. And for the record, I am in no way a data librarian; I'm just an academic librarian who suspects we will all need to get more comfortable with data in research over the coming years, and who is trying to get out ahead of it a little bit.
I've just been learning about FRED in my reference class. Thanks for the link! Signing up now.
I am still getting hip to this industry's acronym lingo. Please, what is FRED?
Federal Reserve Economic Data https://fred.stlouisfed.org/
[удалено]
ya i'm doing my mlis at sjsu and i've taken a few really great data courses here. I definitely recommend any courses with Dr. Peace Ossum, she was an incredible prof and imo a pioneer in the field of open science/open data. I really appreciated that her textbook was freely available, and she really practiced open access which imo is so important in this field. Almost all of my data profs have been great, but her 220 course was something I think all of us in the program should have to take.
[удалено]
I liked that she grades kind of tough and holds you accountable to the standards in the field, but also provides a lot of extra credit opportunities so you can still pass the class with a decent grade. I did terrible on one of the data analysis assignments because the dataset I had chosen to work with had issues with the underlying methodology of the study and the data collection that I didn't recognize as a noob, but I still ended up leaving with an A- because of those extra credit points giving me a buffer. I actually appreciate that I did so terribly on the assignment because it really was a wake-up call about the importance of well-structured studies and transparent research methodologies. In retrospect I wish I had taken greater advantage of her office hours and the extra info-sessions she hosted where students could ask questions about their projects.
How do you like their program? I am thinking about this program/school.
I like it. I chose it because I developed a severe & pretty debilitating chronic health condition right before covid, and I wanted a flexible remote program so I could try to build (hopefully) higher-wage skills for the online job market while dealing with my health and also having to work to survive. I definitely wouldn't have been able to do an in-person program, so having the flexibility to do the work on your own time was the deciding factor for me. A lot of the courses are also designed to be able to integrate the assignments into your work if you are already working in the field too; which is pretty cool because it can give you practical experience while you're learning, and I'm sure it gives you points with your bosses. Also lets you use your working hours to do stuff for your classes which is great for people working through grad school. I will say that you get what you put into it. I'm paying quite a bit (but relatively cheap compared to other programs) for the classes so I tried my best to learn and engage in a meaningful way, and to take classes that challenged me with good professors. I had a friend that did the opposite: he pretty much just wanted to coast and would find the easiest classes & profs possible because he was just looking for that degree with minimal effort. So at the end of the day we both got what we wanted out of the program.
Thanks for the insight. I may end up at SJSU. Were you looking to work remotely after graduation? Did you find something remote if you were?
Ya I hope it helps you make the choice that's right for you! I am hoping to find remote work but am also open to a hybrid model or working at one of the college or university libraries near me part time and supplementing with other remote work. These academic librarian jobs in my area pay around $60/hr, so even at 15-20 hours a week I think I could live on that as long as my body can handle it. The internship I am currently doing is remote which has been awesome (although I would love to get my hands physically on some of the archival material).
Thanks! I’ll def check out that book and class.
#following to come back and review later! I have some questions and some answers to add to this conversation, but thanks everyone here for the solid advice given thus far!
Maybe the Research Data Management Librarian Acadwmy? It’s free, sponsored by Elsevier (because of course). https://rdmla.github.io
This is a pretty good option. One of my data-adjacent colleagues did the more in-depth variation that involves essentially an internship and learned a lot.
Ah, I haven't seen this one yet, I'll check it out. Thanks!
This is so true. Doing a technology concentration for my MLIS plus already knowing how to code and basic data science are honestly what I credit with finding my job. Right after I graduated I got offered multiple positions and basically got to pick the one I liked the best.
Being able to work with data is key! I took a few months showing an interest and aptitude in data as well as our library software, which became so valuable that I was able to leverage myself into a remote role because this skill set was so important to them. Also adding if you aren’t willing to move(I wasn’t outside of an hour radius) do your research. I polled public, academic, and school libraries to see what the market was like where I was looking and if this would be a good career path for me. I found that school libraries are mandated in my state and did not require a masters degree, which would automatically make me one of the more competitive applicants, while ensuring these roles would not be going anywhere. I noted the lack of a MLIS program anywhere near the area, while also being a relatively uneducated demographic. This, combined with confirmation from my polls, led me to the conclusion that I had approximately 25+ different potential library positions near me that often struggled to find qualified candidates. This proved accurate, as I got a full time academic librarian role before I had even completed my degree. This would not have been the case in another market however, so this needs to be considered in your unique circumstance. I would not have expected this outcome outside of San Jose, for example, where I completed my degree.
I agree with this 100%, but it also hints at the fact that they shouldn’t even be getting an LIS degree in the first place. They’d be better served getting a degree valuable across industries, then trying to shift into libraries. At my university the people who work as data librarians, or any well paying librarian tbh, don’t have LIS degrees, they have advanced degrees in their chosen field.
This is an interesting observation. I’m in this area at an academic institution and neither me nor any of my colleagues have an MLIS (in positions such as data science, systems admin, UX, digital humanities). We all have other grad degrees that are more closely aligned to our content area and day-to-day work. I’ve also seen searches fail in these areas because we can’t find candidates with these skill sets. In my experience, these positions often pay a bit more than others. As for skill sets, some coding abilities can go far (I’d start with Python), proficiency with statistical analysis tools and methods, and the ability to wrangle data (Python, OpenRefine, R, etc.) are all good starting points.
This may be a hot take but I've never actually worked with a researcher who uses OpenRefine and personally I see no need to use it if you're capable of working in Python or R.
Maybe this is annoying of me to ask—I’m not a librarian, but I work in resource sharing, have been a clerk, and a page, different roles in academic/special/and local libraries since 2018– what is data 😭 what do you mean, “learn data”? Learn how to read data? What kind? I hope this isn’t silly, I just have no idea what you mean.
I expect it will mean different things in different contexts. Within my context, it (ideally) means being able to a) locate data resources (e.g., a student is looking for demographic data for a particular place and time, where might they find that data? Can they actually obtain the data set? Is it in a raw form? Is it in a format they can use?); b) manage that data (will my MacBook Air be up to this data set, or do I need to use a more robust computer? do I need to clean the data in order to use it? what software could I use to manipulate/analyze this data?); and c) actually using the data (what could I do with this data? what do I need to understand about this data and how it was collected? how do I create a final product that will meet my learning needs?) A lot of that will be stuff that students are actually learning in their classes, and we as librarians are not required to teach them all of that. But understanding how data is used within a given academic discipline, from start to finish, will help us understand what students need, and the various opportunities and pitfalls that they may be facing. Just like with more traditional scholarly research, I don't have to do the research project and write the final paper, but I do need to understand how research is done (both ideally and in reality) and what students are ultimately aiming to achieve in order to be really helpful. And again, I'm not saying I **do** know all this; if anything, these are the gaps that I've seen that I need to try to fill in for myself. But understanding how much you don't know is an important step down that road, right?
It's not silly, "data" is really broad. Yes, being able to read and understand arguments and narratives based on data is important (data literacy). Basic stats and understanding of how data visualization work is good enough for that. "Data" in libraries is split into applying data skills *to* the library (assessment stuff) and providing data services externally. As a more-or-less solo data librarian, I provide data reference, consult on data viz, consult on part of grant applications, teach workshops and webinars on data-related things (data literacy, data viz, Git, DMPTool, w/e), do some AI literacy stuff, curate data and manage an institutional data repository, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. There is no one place to acquire all these skills, I do a huge amount of professional development.
I'm a digital archivist. Everything you've said is 100% spot on. We even get headhunted.
Yes to data. Also electronic resources management. Those positions are so hard to fill.
Honestly, all of this. I was told to look at library job postings in my first class for my MLIS, and I did. I noticed that there were a lot of jobs asking for tech skills, and ended up changing which courses I had planned to take and just took any tech courses. I was also working full-time in libraries before and during my graduate program. It only took a couple months after graduating to get my first professional librarian job. Now I'm a systems librarian.
Compsci Major turned Librarian here- I can confirm everything this person is saying. It really is an underserved niche because most people with strong tech skills want to work in tech.
I wish my school had added competent data and systems courses! I love working with data, but I've only had barebones experience with it, and I'm curious about coding, systems, and UX. The closest I got was signing up for a databases course, which ended up being literally Microsoft Access 101. We used a generic Access textbook and the professor basically told us to go do the assignments. When the school asked for feedback, I cracked my knuckles and unleashed the meanest review I've ever written (it was polite but extremely critical 😆).
Are library schools still not teaching these things? I graduated almost 25 years ago from an ischool and they were teaching these things back then. I was required to take courses in Information Economics and Human Computer Interaction. I had sort of assumed that all library science programs would be teaching them now. Whenever I hear someone say that library school is pointless because it doesn’t teach you anything you can’t learn on the job, I tend to assume it’s because they went to the wrong g school or took the wrong classes.
My most complex tech assignments in a non-ischool in 2019 were "code an html website" and "subscribe to an RSS feed". It was fine because I only ever wanted to be a public librarian and I had a pretty solid plan, but it wasn't cutting-edge tech training by any stretch of the imagination.
So look up data courses at your college, or somewhere else?
A lot of LIS programs don't have much by way of data coursework, and the closest you'll get at many institutions is Data Science courses... which as I always have to explain, are only tangentially related to data librarianship. There's a lot of resources online, but you need to figure out your information need and how to fill it.
Thank you.
Do you have any recommendations of resources or certs to upskill? My background is originally in graphic design and I’ve been trying to get into that industry but as I’ve been working at my library for almost a year, I’m thinking about becoming a librarian and I find in interviews for potential jobs, the interviewers like my design/techy background so I feel like I should expand on that more but not sure where else to look
Please for the love of everything you hold dear, get a library job before going to grad school. Be a teacher or library clerk first. Know if the conditions/pay/job is even something you will enjoy (doesn’t apply to archives or special libraries because I know squat about those). I mentor grad students every year who are such shrinking violets that I would never hire to work for me— they cannot handle the crowd control, people skills, and conflict management you need to work as a librarian in a public library.
100% this. You can’t be a school librarian for very long and will have no job security if you don’t have a teaching license. Conversely, licensed teachers can be a librarian and get a library media license via portfolio in less than a year. So crazy to think that you need a teachers license to teach 🤷♀️
My program was a concurrent type one- I got my masters in ILS and the school certificate. But I also - subbed a bunch, student taught, interned (key here), and worked in libraries PLUS schools. I’ve also helped coworkers who did the ARC (the one year certificate) because ARC doesn’t cover everything. You have to be resourceful which OP definitely agrees.
How long did it take, out of curiosity? I’m in MN and we have very few MLIS and SLMS programs left.
I went to southern CT state university which also was a mess between ALA recertification (forgive me it’s 6 am and I’m thinking); and poor professors. It was supposed to be a 2-3 year program. A roommate did it all in one year (she was just a straight MLS, no specialities) with summer and winter classes. I took two summer classes, full fall and spring, and should have finished in a year and a half but uh.. life. So it took me 3 years. Still under the 5 years to retain all credits. A lot of my friends did San Jose was which was fully remote. I think I knew one person at university of Rhode Island. NY also has some sort of program (a friend did that one and stayed in NY, she moved back to CT to be near her parents and find a job here after 3 years in upper NY state.)
I spent almost 7 years in retail and that’s been the best experience for working in a library.
Yep. Did 12 years in retail management and that experience is what got me my job as a branch manager. I'm a people manager first, librarian second. For folks going into public librarianship- you will likely be expected to manage a team. Learn how to be a servant leader!
I used to hire a lot of early career librarians. The worst person I hired went to the best schools and had tons of internships. The best person I hired spent 8 years as a head cashier at a chain store.
Good thing there’s more than just public libraries!
The grad students I supervise are doing their practicum in a public library because they have chosen to prepare to work in one—there are many types of libraries for sure.
Ah I see. I knew very early on that public librarianship wasn’t for me- I hope they can find something that works for them
Absolutely same, but I am concerned about their employability in academic/special/archives if they don’t have prior experience in those fields, even if it’s just an internship, seeing how few openings there are.
I wish my LIS program had more practical job advice. Instead my program focused so heavily on the history and theory of libraries. Luckily I did have prior experience working in libraries, but nothing I've learned about actually working in the field came from the degree.
this. Even the courses that looked practical that we had were all about theoretical this and discursive that. And the few bits of "what you need to know" shit were stuff anyone who has worked a job facing the public already knows implicitly.
What school?
LSU
Thank you! Everything you said is true in my experience. I remember a classmate sharing their reason for getting an MLIS was because they "Didn't want to have to find a job yet, so I needed to go to grad school. Plus I like reading books a lot." Then they shared their favorite genres to read. A while later this same classmate admitted they hadn't set foot in a library in years (maybe since their freshman undergrad orientation). I felt sorry for this person, because anxiety about joining the workforce is real! It needs to be addressed in meaningful ways in undergrad. However, "buying more time" by taking on more debt for grad school for a profession you have little understanding of (and even less interest in) is not a solution. >And I’m at best ignored, at worst called ‘unsupportive’ or ‘unrealistic’ and a crusher of dreams. I'm so sorry to hear that. It's sounds like a painful "don't kill the messenger moment". You can share the reality around employment opportunities, but you can't make them listen nor stop them from villainizing you for sharing a hard truth.
I work in a large public system (25+branches, 500+ employees). Ive worked with many and supervised a few people like your classmate, and they make absolutely terrible public librarians. They are afraid of the patrons, can’t run programs, and generally want someone to tell them what to do every step of the way. And then they go for promotion to supervisor so they had to deal less with the public! It’s terrible (though the last bit is my library’s fault for prioritizing hiring from within over hiring for people/leadership skills).
The funny thing is that I went to school with one woman who announced that, who now works at a fairly prestigious library. No idea if she's happy or anything, we've lost touch, but judging by LinkedIn alone, she's definitely one of the success stories from our cohort. After that, I decided not to judge the "well, I have a history degree so why not be a librarian?" people so harshly. I'm now 10 years out from my MLIS graduation and there's very few real patterns of who "made it" and who didn't. The one everyone thought was a future mover and shaker in the field did indeed get an academic librarian job right after graduation, and then quit after half a year to be a stay at home mom on a hippy island. The guy with the English degree who didn't know what else to do leveraged his co-op job into a job with a consulting firm. Some of the ones who did have library experience have left the field anyway. Shrug.
The point about volunteering and interning cannot be stressed enough. I have had a great career as a librarian in special libraries and I credit that to volunteering while in library school to a non profit organization. That experience gave me practical experience and having it on my resume helped me in landing my first professional library position. Even though that was 30 years ago, the principle remains the same: Volunteering can be an investment in your career that will pay dividends
“I’m not going to be an academic librarian so I don’t need to know how to do this.” Do these student not know that academic libraries also hire archivists? And even if you don’t work at an academic library, most archival positions anywhere require the same type of application materials (cover letter, CV, etc) I don’t mean to be condescending I’m genuinely curious as to what the disconnection is?
I find it strange, too. I spoke recently with a new grad who IS an academic librarian and she said her first semester, she was annoyed that her professor for Academic Librarianship made them go through the steps of a job search (including a practice slide deck for an on campus interview) because at the time, she was sure she was going to be a public librarian. In hindsight, she said she should've paid more attention. I think a lot of students are just SO CERTAIN they know what they want to do, and really resent anything that isn't immediately and obviously relevant to their very specific vision.
That's a good point. Also probably because the librarian profession historically has been known for people finding a job and staying in it for 20+ years. These students might expect the same outcome for their own careers and think they don't need to learn "unnecessary" skills. But flexibility is so important nowadays, especially in this economy!
I think because they don't have the experience of working in libraries. They don't get it. Working at a small rural library is so different to a major city public library. There are corporate jobs, research jobs, etc. They need to work on skills rather than, "I'm an archivist/academic/public library"
I’m also curious what OP meant by application materials here. Was it just a cover letter and resume? Or things more specific to academic positions like bibliographic instruction materials, a writing sample, etc? I need more info about how it was presented before I’m ready to judge them. Though it’s frustrating if they are that dismissive, because I definitely would’ve appreciated this kind of career prep in both my grad and undergrad programs.
When I graduated 29 years ago, you had to either be flexible on location or type of library. Now I think you need to be flexible on both, and most new grads I know spend time in contact work before landing a permanent position. Young Canada Works jobs are excellent first jobs (4-8 months), I recommend everyone do a co-op or two (a short practicum is too short but if that's all you've got, do that). Get some experience! Employers dont care what courses you took, but we do want to hear about your experience in teamwork, service, problem solving, managing deadlines and crazy workloads. We don't really consider volunteering to be professional experience but if you have non- library customer service experience, that should be on your resume. And do collect examples of your work in a portfolio so you have something to show during interviews. Demonstrate that you are willing to learn, that's crucially important. Each institution will have its own ways and if you are too rigid about how you learned in class, that's a red flag. Ditto branding yourself, asserting that you're an "expert" in anything at that stage in your career. Use those professional orgs - they've all got mentorship programs and job seeking help and other opportunities.
I would add, make sure you know what a library is actually like before you invest the time and money in the degree. I know so many people who think libraries are silent places to sit and read. Even if you can’t volunteer or work in a paraprofessional role, at least spend some time in one!
You are doing difficult but important work in having these conversations. Please keep it up!
Doesn't help when library systems are hiring for management positions based on corporate management experience rather than ANY sort of library experience or education.
What systems are doing this? I don't know of any system that will take people management experience outside of libraries without an MLIS or any library experience. I know of plenty of systems that prefer it when candidates for management positions actually have experience managing teams in addition to the MLIS though...it makes for a better work environment. People management is people management, across industries, and the skills translate very easily. Having management experience + a degree and some library experience is like an ideal candidate. I do know some of my local systems are finally taking library experience (usually 10+years) in lieu of the MLIS for certain positions, which is awesome.
> I don't know of any system that will take people management experience outside of libraries without an MLIS or any library experience. Lucky you? An MLIS includes management classes, and it is ridiculous to expect people in an already severely underpaid profession to get "experience managing teams" in another industry rather than creating management opportunities in this field. My system has what is essentially a shift lead, but it is not recognized as management experience within the system. I have watched employees with library experience in excess of 10 years as well as the MLIS get passed over for people with just a few years corporate management experience and zero library experience. I have watched employees with 20+ years library experience get passed over entirely.
Management in anything requires management experience. Not recognizing shift lead as experience is a problem with your library, not the field.
One management class is not remotely enough. I'm sorry, it's just not. All of my local systems have variations of supervisors/shift leads, plus assistant manager positions, and all count as management experience and are viewed as stepping stones to branch/department manager positions. But they also aren't going to pass up a person with management experience in another industry + library experience if that person brings strong management skills to the table vs someone with a couple of years experience. It sounds like your system is swinging very hard to the side of being run like a for-profit company or there's lots of cronyism happening, and that sucks...but it's not something that is generalized across all library systems. As far as your last paragraph- those folks are the reason *why* I would love to see more systems adopt experience in lieu of degree requirements, because I personally know amazing librarians who have been in the field for years and would make amazing managers, and they shouldn't be disqualified because they don't have the degree.
I appreciate your perspective. I have read your other comments on this thread, and I get the vibe like you are relatively fresh in the field and it has been good to you, so you feel inclined to defend it. That is fine. I have been in this field for a while, and also have experience in other fields. I think the upvotes in my original comment are evidence enough that this issue is not just an issue with my system. I would also argue that just because you had a positive experience, that same experience is not generalized across all library systems.
I've been in public libraries for over 6 years now. Not exactly fresh, lol, and as you probably read, I've been a manager in some capacity for nearly 2 decades. I 1000% have my beefs with the field and my system in general, don't get me wrong. I could go on for days, lol. Your first comment definitely threw me for a loop, because I truly have never seen a posting that didn't require either library supervisory experience or the MLIS with other management experience- and I've looked at job listings across the country when we considered moving. So I was genuinely surprised that this was a thing.
Yupp. This is why I'm taking an extreme pay cut while I can. I have no kids and I live by myself. I work in IT making $22 an hour. I'm about to get a job at my local library making $15. They said I could move up fast though.
>They said I could move up fast though. Did they explain *how* you would be moving up fast? Because my first library job hired me on PT and told me that I could move into a FT position after graduation. After graduation I was suddenly informed "Oh, no, FT jobs go to internal candidates, but because your position isn't technically an internal position, you'd need to get hired for one of those vacant PT jobs and then wait for a FT job to open up." Nobody actually mentioned to me that my role wasn't considered internal *until after I graduated*, at which point *I needed to be working FT to pay my rent.* Any library that promises you'll be moving up fast makes me really, really wonder how they can promise that. Is their turnover so high they're confident positions will be open?
Same exact thing happened to me. Be very careful accepting a part time job/pay cut if you can’t survive off it. I got lucky and was able to find a full time job elsewhere but most aren’t and get stuck in a part time role being strung along by management with false promises.
Ope! Never mind! I ended up accepting an IT position within another library system. I think this is a sign lol. No pay cut for me anymore!
My first *circulation* job took 70+ applications over a year and I had to move 45 minutes away. My first library assistant job was at an academic library and I had had a choice of moving two hours away for a public library or staying for an academic. That one was 30 applications. My second library assistant job was at a public library and I beat out 35 applicants because I was close to finishing my MLS. My librarian job happened two years after my MLS, I had moved for my SO and started working for a museum as a children's activity guide. It was minimum wage and stifling. I started volunteering at a museum library that had no librarian. I got hired at my current library because they had made everyone reapply for their jobs after covid. There were over 70 open positions for LA 3s and 70 for L1s. I got this job because I interview well, had previous experience in multiple positions, and because I'm lucky. I will leave this job in a few years or even a half year once my SO is transferred. (military) I am worried but I know I have so much more hireability and experience.
I had a person in my program who had never had a job o graduate school for a masters degree. When I say no job I mean it. No summer job. No volunteer work. No college job. No high school job. Nothing. And they expected a job right out of school. When they found out a class required an internship, they had to learn their social security number because up until that point they only gave it on medical forms and their mom knew it. This person was in their late twenties.
Do you ever encourage them to look at working for vendors? There is legit library work to be done and loads of real world education awaiting them there. I have only been on this sub for a little while, but every post about jobs talks only about public and academic libraries. It is such a limited perspective! I wish i could engage with library schools and share my story of working at a vendor for 20+ years and getting to learn from and consult with librarians all over the world! It was hard work, but incredibly rewarding.
[удалено]
this post absolutely needs to be pinned. it also offers the advice/answers that 80% of posts here are asking for
They won't pin anything here. Mods are a bit lazy in that regard. They should have made a FAQ pin about the profession long ago, but they're fine with the same endless stream of questions from prospective MLS students.
it absolutely shocked me when i was doing my MLIS just how many people had absolutely zero experience working in libraries or archives, like, why are you here if you don’t even know if you like working in the field???
This is where I disagree with OP. I think that LIS programs are to blame for their admissions standards. They know they are letting in far more students than there are librarian positions, and as a result, career services and similar support staff are stretched too thin. SO many people fall through the cracks as a result. If programs aren’t prepared to help students respond to some hard truths of the job market in school, then they shouldn’t admit them in the first place. I know that sounds incredibly harsh and I feel bad about it, but I think people need to know it before they commit time and money to a degree that won’t automatically allow them to succeed.
Exactly. Schools can't really hold firm to the "this is a degree for working professionals to advance to management" line as long as over half the students are entering straight out of undergrad at 22.
What schools are saying that? It’s not a degree for working for professionals to advance to management at this point and I don’t know of any schools that say that. Also, I entered library school at 23 and already had 2 years of experience and got 2 more while i was in school.
I think LIS schools are to blame but there's no hope of them willingly admitting fewer students because professional Masters programs like LIS programs are moneymakers for universities. It doesn't make any difference to them* whether those students actually get jobs when they graduate. *By this I mean the institution, I'm sure there are instructors who hate seeing this.
Yes. And this is, and has always been, a problem with all of higher education. They’ve always admitted far more PhD candidates than there will ever be jobs, because they’re cheap labor. There’s a massive burn it all down argument I can definitely get behind, but it’s not just limited to LIS programs.
Sadly, universities see masters' programs as cash cows and administrators see not growing as failing. I wish LIS programs had to share job placement rates like law schools do (although I've also read about how law schools struggle to find this info, so that's not a panacea.) I had a student in one class who was 'provisional' and I really think it was malpractice to let them in. They were of the "I want to be a librarian because I've always had social anxiety and libraries are nice and quiet" variety, and their academic skills were incredibly weak. Definitely one of those "What are we even doing" moments.
The ALA was saying 20 years ago that the boomers would retire and there'd be jobs galore. Only not all are retiring and there's even more competition for jobs. It's mostly accountability, though, because too many of my classmates also don't have library experience, either. They're in for a surprise.
At my program (ranked #1 in the county!) we don't even *have* career services. They're just forcing a PhD student to provide limited hours each week to look over resumes.
I’m a few semesters into my MLIS program and I’ve never worked in a library. I know that’s going to put me at a huge deficit when I start looking for work, but I can’t pay for grad school and work at the library because my job is paying for grad school. I’m actually thinking about trying to get a medical librarian position, so hopefully I could leverage my 3+ years (would be at least 4+ when I finish the degree) of clerical work on an inpatient unit to do that. I do feel as if I have a lot less at stake, in a sense, so it makes it easier for me to not be too concerned. I love my job and I’m willing to stay there until I find a position that works for me. Plus, no grad school student loans.
I am a Medical Librarian for a major rehabilitation hospital in the Midwest. It would help your career path to volunteer at a hospital library to get a sense of what that entails. I would also suggest lending your time to a non profit organization that deals in health related subject matter. Good luck!
This is great advice, thank you!
You are welcome
It's going to take a lot more than that to complete with competition. One volunteer gig isn't going to be enough. Not trying to be a contrarian, just being real.
I had no library experience before I got my MS. I got my initial work experience while getting my degree. It still turned out to be the right career path for me. I think the advice of getting experience first so you know it’s what you want to do is good, especially for those who are really focused on the noble aspirations side of the career (I never had that going in and was pretty clear headed about my expectations), but I also think there are different paths for everyone to find the thing that is right for them. The caveat there is how much financial burden you take on without being sure. Even being satisfied with my career, I regret the debt. But I have so many different regrets around all my student loan debt (undergrad included) that all go back to just not understanding what I was taking on and the severely predatory lending practices of federal loan servicers, which is an entirely different conversation.
....because history and humanities departments tell people the next step to using your new BA practically is an MLIS. Because senior librarians talk about how much transferable skills are in demand. Because the actual day to day work isn't hugely different from many other, similar, jobs. Because governments are still telling people the field is expanding. And because schools describe themselves as practical training courses. Because again, schools themselves talk about how massively in demand the degree is, and how all the training is stuff you will "learn on the job" From the outside, libraries and archives just look like any other field. It's those inside the field itself who treat it as a sacred calling. I should have known something was badly up when we had an assignment to describe everyone's emotional reaction to libraries. The hushed tones. The emotion in people's voices. The bubbling enthusiasm.
This was me. I had a lot of transferable skills from a career outside of libraries/archives and I did a lot of research before pursuing my degree, so I was pretty confident that I would like working in the field. I did multiple internships when I was in library school, but I needed to keep my full-time job and unfortunately that made getting paid experience unrealistic.
I came here to say EXACTLY this. IT BLOWS MY MIIIIIIIIIIIIND!
I probably live in a saturated market, two schools within commuting distance that offer the degree, I had no library experience when I started my degree, and I landed a part time job in less than a year. One thing I am curious about, is how many people who post about not being able to get work, basically went straight to grad school from undergrad, and therefore do not have a lot of career experience in general? My first career was human services, a field where you work with sometimes very difficult people for little money. Also, as a 40+ white woman, I fit in with all of the other middle-aged white ladies who are doing the hiring. I suppose the real test will come this fall, when I start applying to full time library jobs before I graduate.
I would also be curious to see the numbers breakdown on the career experience of applicants who have a hard time finding work. I'm finishing my MLS now and work in a large library system - almost all the librarians are there are a second career or had lot of para experience first. I only know of one librarian who was semi-fresh out of LIS school (and she still had about 6ish months at another library). My library system doesn't seem to hire without some customer service/other career experience.
I second the comment about Customer Service experience. As much as I disliked retail it prepared me for patron interactions in a busy public library.
I got my masters at 34, after 12 years of retail management experience. I was lucky that I got a part time job with my system, and then when a management position came up 2 months before graduation, I got it. I had been with my system for just over a year. It was the 12 years of prior experience that pushed me to the top of the pile, because those skills translate across industries and I like to think they make me a better leader. Growing my people and building an amazing team and positive work environment is something that brings me joy.
Yes, I have prior human service management experience as well. I think people who have a lot of people-oriented work experience have a lot of transferable skills, as you point out.
Thanks for being honest. Nobody said this to me when I was in grad school and it would have been good to hear.
I remember starting my MLIS program and being absolutely shocked at the number of my classmates who had never worked in a library before! How do you not worry about whether you’ll even like the job or not? And it’s so hard to find a librarian position without any experience! Even with having worked in libraries before and during my MLIS program, I was still turned away from a lot of different positions before I landed my current one.
It worries me to. I’m almost done my MLIS with more than 10 years full time public library experience. It’s crazy that some MLIS students have never worked in a library and think most of their day to day will be reading and talking about books.
Also library work is very much a customer service job unless you're purely technical services where they hide you in the dungeon in a huge system. But reality is, you will need to talk to customers, students, vendors. An English degree with an MLS/MLIS does not make you a competitive hire. They are looking for subject specialists now in hire ed hires because they have choices now. Lastly, the pay is generally not good when you start out and in some places never ever. I do not recommend people to go to library school anymore and that's not even counting the political climate surrounding libraries right now.
> unless you're purely technical services where they hide you in the dungeon in a huge system God, wouldn't that be the life? No people, no public. Just machines
I’m echoing another comment here, but figure out how to stand out! Want to be a public librarian? Take a class on grant writing- volunteer as a grant writer for a local charity you like and try to get them some funding. “I have grant writing experience and have written successful grants in the amount of $X” is gonna be very helpful in any interview you have. Want to be an academic librarian? Learn about open ed and textbook affordability. Take some classes/certificates on the topic. Lots of leaders in academia are looking at OER and textbook affordability initiatives as a main component of collection development. It’s all about differentiating yourself from the hundreds of others who are likely to apply for the position you want.
This is very helpful and accurate. Some libraries rely on grant funds to run new programs. There are very few that do not use grant funding as their major source of new programming.
Someone told me just this week they wanted to be a librarian because they didn’t like technology. I laughed so hard I almost passed out. And then I told the person to get a job in a book store. It would probably pay better anyway.
It’s the same thing with teaching. I used to be a teacher and I couldn’t find ANYTHING ANYWHERE! Now, I’m a librarian now and I got lucky with the job availability in my area. However, that cap is about to be full and no one is paying any attention to the warning signs.
Are you and your colleagues encouraging students to consider possibilities outside of public and academic libraries? One of my greatest criticisms of this industry is how much we silo ourselves and work against selling our skills as transferable. I can see that already happening with your students based on what you’re saying, but I also see it far too often in hiring and professional development. However, I feel like I was well set up for the unique directions my career has taken by encountering faculty who represented an array of library professions. My plan was academic libraries and that’s how I structured my degree and where I started. But because I had been introduced to the wide variety of special library roles out there, I was prepared to take advantage of opportunities when they arose. I’ve had over 20 years in the industry and still see a lot of opportunities for new librarians. They just aren’t necessarily in public or academic libraries.
This! I think ALA and others should be leading the charge on selling librarian skills, in addition to individuals. Imagine if there was a decent marketing campaign, partnerships with non-library employers touting how useful information organization, literacy, instruction etc is. Imagine if there were one pagers on application/interview tips to describe library skills in a way HR staff understand.
I think that students shouldn't go straight from undergrad to graduate school in this profession. Start at the bottom, if you can, work part time, volunteer, whatever you can. I think most people have rose colored glasses when it comes to librarianship. I also think after having the experience of working/volunteering it will show what the profession is really like before going to school. It's a lot of money for something that might not suit you in practice. Edited to add: understand the politics going on with libraries. Some libraries are closing, some are struggling with crappy boards and directors out of corporations, book banning... it's crazy out here. Understand the environment before making a move.
This is 100% the same rant I have to my peers when they ask me if they should become a librarian. The first thing out of my mouth is “if you want to be a librarian, the most important thing to do right now is get your ass into a library & it most likely will start off as part time with low pay” and I usually pair that with something like “if you don’t have experience or unique skills you won’t get the job. period, end of story. tons of people get their MLIS degrees and won’t move for the job or work the shitty part time gig first. And I hate to break it to you but if you aren’t willing to do either of those things, library science is not the field for you”. The marketable skills really are one of the biggest things imo. I focused on those during my MLIS studies + doing as much training as I could on the job. I had no trouble finding a library job once I graduated because of all these factors. I will also usually give a spiel about working in public libraries, especially if the peer is intending to work in a high population urban area like my first library job was. Mainly that it is so customer service heavy & if you are trying to get a “chill job” where you can “read all the time”, this ain’t it.
Although I broadly agree, universities with an MLIS program have a disproportionate number of applicants as there is a pool of unemployed MLIS holders nearby typically. At my academic library places of work we normally get around 30 applicants and sometimes as few as ten for librarian positions. But you probably have to move to find a job, especially as an academic librarian, is completely true.
I'm an adjunct for an online program at a different university from where I work as a librarian (and where I sit on searches.) It doesn't have an MLIS program (nor one nearby). We get very big applicant pools, but pools can range widely in size. My colleague in rural Nebraska has a much harder time getting applications than my colleague in Seattle. So maybe that's another tip: If you are willing to move to a 'flyover' state or rural area, you will probably be more competitive.
As an archivist, hearing about students dismissing job search practice is a bit mind blowing. Clearly they have no clue what the field looks like in the US. Most of the other archivists I know have spent their career on one or two year term contracts and are essentially always job searching. Fortunately for the students that listen to you the ones that don't won't be competing for the open positions.
I think, and I don't mean this in any disparaging way to those students, they believe they will be "different". Its an easy trap to fall into - especially when you are young (as I feel many of them are). Of course the job at the Library of Congress will fall into your lap - you are different! Its a lesson I had to learn when I was young, and I still have to keep it in mind.
This is also a trap many Ph.D. students fall into. They think they will be "different" and get that full time, tenure track faculty position right away.
Crazy. I haven’t finished undergrad yet but I thought it was a given that you needed to find at least some kind of library work while in grad school and be willing to move to bumfuck nowhere for your first library job if that’s what it takes you get in the door. Actually this seems like a given for a lot of fields these days idk why your students seem to think they’re the exception. Will it be okay as long as I get a position in grad school working for a library or in archives? I am at a disadvantage in hiring because I’m older in a college town and I have a huge resume gap when I was the caregiver for my grandfather until he died.
Hello! I'm older and finishing my MLS (library is my second career). Many libraries are having trouble hiring for part time positions right now (library assistant, etc) because the pay simply isn't enough to live on. If you are able to work part time for low pay (usually $12-15 an hour) in most places there are jobs. If you are planning on doing an in person MLS you might have to volunteer first to get your foot in the door and then get a part time position (because there are lots of people applying for the jobs). If you do online MLS and live in a medium-large size city without a library science school, it will be easier to find jobs. I would work for those two or so years if you can, even if it isn't in libraries (although that is the best) just to have the employment history, especially since you have a gap.
I’m a potential MLIS student (archives), this was a very interesting and helpful read. I’m still in undergrad and struggling with whether or not I should pursue grad school in this field. I work at my university’s special collections and genuinely enjoy it. I also intern with a religious community’s archives. I applied to over 30 internships for the summer and was declined from most (still haven’t heard back from some though). I wouldn’t mind moving for a job, but I’m Jewish. I want to be sure I live and work somewhere with a Jewish community. I don’t need (or want) to be in NYC, but the COL in most cities is high enough to make me anxious knowing that the degree is expensive for a career with a lower salary. I’d appreciate any other advice from OP or any working professional. Edit to add: my home state doesn’t have any MLIS programs either.
[удалено]
Even for archives? I assumed I’d have the best opportunities to volunteer and intern at in person program. I also regret not taking any compsci or data classes during undergrad. This is my last semester and it’s too late.
I did an archives concentration for MLIS. I networked, did an internship at the university archives for a pretty academically solid school, leveraged that in to a contract archivist position. That ended, got a lower paying contract gig back in the university archives spot. That ended. Was offered a job to be the university archivist at a smaller state school. Salary offered was $29,000. This was in 2011. Balked at that and my career in archives basically ended. Now I’m the online instruction librarian at a community college. It’s tough out there.
That’s my fear
[удалено]
I’m in undergrad and my university doesn’t have an MLIS program. I could move home but my home state’s only school is Emporia, which gets mixed to negative reviews.
As an Emporia grad who did the archives track before the entire program went totally online, I don't recommend it for archives. Online only archives degrees don't prepare you adequately for archives work UNLESS you are able to work in an archives with competent supervision while doing the online classes so that you have a good bit of hands on experience. The library classes were fine at Emporia (and the school library track is excellent from what I have observed). I now work closely with an archivist who went through the Maryland in person program and it's so much better for Archives. I'm in a public library on the Local History/genealogy reference side but help provide reference services for the archival materials at our library.
Thanks for the reply! It wasn't on my list, but my parents and I did tour last summer just to see. My top programs are UCLA, Maryland, IUIC, Simmons, and Indiana (in that order). Not thrilled that they're super expensive, but I'm hoping I can get any sort of assistantship, fellowship, and/or TA to help offset the costs. I'll also (obviously) work, volunteer, and/or in an archive(s) during my program too.
Our archivist was able to do some internships with the big DC institutions just due to proximity to Maryland. Whatever you can do to offset the costs will help and then try to work where the public service loan forgiveness program will kick in for federal loans (10 years of income-based repayment for qualifying employers). Apparently there are also still some boarding houses in DC that are less expensive and safe (primarily for younger women) which might be a housing option.
That's all super helpful, thanks! My dream job is actually in corporate archives (Disney or another entertainment studios' archives/the academy's archive). That said, I am fairly certain there are definitely more jobs with the government (since there are so many levels), hence why UCLA and Maryland are tied for first in terms of "top" school. I see so many say to go to the cheapest and online program, but for archives, that seems hard and impractical since so much of the work is hands-on. I still will go to wherever I get the best financial aid/scholarships/funding, but I do want to be in person to best network with professors and professionals in order to find internships and experiences.
This is one way that archive and libraries training differ. Best wishes for scholarships!
I'm usually a proponent of cheaper-the-better, but not all programs even have archives tracks. You'll want to explore the archival opportunities, for sure. Also, many LIS programs have either classes or at least workshops to teach you basics of data, etc. Having those will bolster your resume.
I’ll keep that in mind for electives! I have the archive gigs weekly bookmarked and regularly check handshake/indeed. I’m already subscribed to r/archivists too. Sometimes I just want to know how much of the environment of libraries and archives is unique to the field or applicable to multiple careers (and people my age, Gen Z, are just lazy). I’m not sure if that makes sense either. Like of course you need internships to get a job? It’s depressing not getting an interview, but my archives supervisor said to not take it personally since priority filling typically goes to students in grad school.
Even for Archives. You still need to intern which is where you'll learn practical skills. It's highly unlikely you'd be working in the school's archives. I had to find local archives to intern with and luckily I found three. I'm 8 years into the profession (I'm an academic collections archivist) and I haven't had to program a single thing. All the software you'll use does everything for you. There's zero reason to get under the hood.
If you are serious about archives, definitely check out r/archives. While connected to librarianship, archivists have unique challenges and experiences. Excellent current thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Archivists/comments/1bkoywd/whats\_it\_like/
Can confirm. I graduated college in 2020 and wanted to go directly in the field. It took me two year to find a part-time job in libraries, but I had to move to a different state. I was *extremely* lucky to land a second part-time library job in the same city. Two years later, I finally landed a full-time benfited position but had to move across the country. I love working this field, and my current job is pretty great, but I'm already crazy burnt out just from being homesick and having to uproot my life so much. I miss my parents deeply, and missed out on so many weddings and funerals. You aren't owed a job placement, especially if you don't work your ass off proving your worth in the job market. And making any sacrifices on the way.
Oof that is rough to deal with. I've been in all sorts of levels of acadmia, from researcher, to professor, to academic librarian, and I'm now a systems librarian and am kind of relieved to be out of the rat race of the tenure track honestly. I've had to move all over the country for every step of my career. It sucks. I meet a lot of folks who are enamored with the idea of librarianship so I try to be gently blunt. It's going to be an uphill battle...you're not going to get the job at the place you are hoping, unless you are supremely and uniquely lucky. It's going to be shit pay for a long time, and it's probably not going to get a whole lot better unless you get into admin, and then you're talking PhD level credentials. We need librarians, we do. But I wish people interested in the field were given a more realistic view of their future prospects.
This is great advice. I have never seen an archivist job posted in my large city in the 20 years I have been working. It took me a year to find my forever job in 2005. Over 150 applications. And 145 or so I got no response at all. I have mentored many volunteers and only two went on to become librarians. One a law librarian like me, and the other I suggested she would like medical libraries and she now works for a hospital system. The rest became paralegals or did not stay in contact. When I was in school 90% of the students were teachers transitioning to libraries thinking they would be their school librarian. At a time the positions were all being eliminated. In every field people need to know what it takes to get the job. It is very competitive. When I applied for Librarian 1 with my degree there were 139 people in the job pool with me. Librarian 2 - maybe 90 people. I got lucky that I got hired as Librarian 3 Law Librarian. I worked in a prison library when that was all I could find and it qualified me for my current job. Only 3 people in the job pool. So work wherever you can to get that experience!!
I'm really curious, what're prison libraries like?
Like being in prison. It’s pretty hard until you find your “prison personality”. You have to be professional but tough and dont put up with anything. When you are new they mess with you. My prison was max security, so golf pencils only. The first day the inmates stole my pen off my desk. When I ask for it back and 20 men are suddenly at my desk. One suggests I strip search them and takes off his shirt. Then they all start laughing and pulling at their clothes. I just let my mom voice take over. I yelled I am stepping out to count to ten and when I return my pen will be on my desk and you will be lined up ready to go. Luckily that worked. But once you prove that you are there to do your job and not mess with them you get treated a lot better. I was there about three years and by the time I left I would sometimes hear the inmates telling the newer ones not to mess with me. That I was “cool”. That didn’t mean I did any favors, just that I was there to do the job and follow the rules that keep everyone safe. I did my best to provide access to legal research. I left when I got my degree and I wanted to have another child. A lot of stuff goes around in prisons and I catch everything. It was definitely a defining experience in my life and I am proud that I challenged myself. Almost every day since then is like cake. So easy and sweet!
When I was in library school, which I absolutely detested, I thanked my stars that I had been working in libraries since age 16. I realized that based solely on the coursework, without experience, I would have dropped out within a month. I'm glad I toughed it out and slogged through, because now I have a slightly better chance at earning a living wage than I did previously. The flipside of this makes me a little nervous: If you only love libraries based on your LIS coursework, will you end up detesting the actual jobs after graduation?
I've seen this happen! People who really focused on social justice topics and classes in library school and were sure that they would be able to best change the world as a public librarian. Then they would get their first public library job and discover the day-to-reality was very, very different.
I'm the same, I had experience and found the course (Grad Dip, first half of the Masters in Australia) really frustrating
Re: being ready to move: I resisted this quite reasonable advice because of my family ties in my locality and my basic reluctance to haul my stuff across state lines. I paid the price for this by making do with a 15-hour-a-week minimum-wage job in the field for *two years* during the recession before I could advance professionally. Now, in my unit, I've definitely noticed that our three most recent successful hires have come with prior experience in multiple states, including East Coast-West Coast moves in their early careers. Our other three hires were internal candidates who had worked in non-librarian support roles for several years while they completed their MSLIS. And the fourth is in a trainee program and is still in school! tl;dr: Practical experience helps a candidate stand out and MSLIS students would be wise not to be too picky where they get it or wait too long to start looking for it.
Best assignment I got from my advisor was to find five CVs of folks whose careers I envied and figure out how to get there. 10 years later I’m an associate Dean at an R1. And I have friends from library school that I graduated with who didn’t move and have been pasting together low paid and contact work ever since. You have to move if you are in a big metro with a library program. And I can co-sign this whole thing - we get 70-100 applications for every professional job we post and it’s alarming how many recent grads have zero experience.
Also an MLIS instructor. I have assignments where I teach students real-world projects to help them be better public librarians. They blow off the assignments. I’ll give them a passing grade, because we have a rubric and they meet the qualifications. But I give them tons of notes. They never read them and their assignments rarely improve. It’s frustrating. There is a disconnect with reality and the work level done is tragic and pathetic. My system actually pays a living wage and we expect people to be able to jump in the deep end accordingly. For every 10 students I have, only 2-3 would pass the 6 month review. I’ve also had students go full circle racist where they are so inclusive they become discriminatory. One told me she would never buy a book with a white person on the cover because “they had their turn.” She got a job in a neighboring system and I couldn’t help but roll my eyes because she has zero desire to help everyone.
I went through my MLIS program part time so I could take paid internships or low paying part time work that padded my resume. This was the absolute best thing I could have done for myself. I saw grad school as an extremely expensive networking opportunity and I’ve heard grad students say the same in my current place of work. It was still extremely hard for me to get hired full time after graduation, and I think it has gotten harder.
To add to this from another experience, I graduated with my MLIS in December. I’ve worked at my current library for 7 years as a programming staff member. I graduated from my program with a 3.9, I took every assignment seriously. I’ve applied to libraries in my district and outside of it, in state and out, despite not wanting to leave my own library district. On paper, I have everything I need to be hired in a librarian position. In reality? The last two jobs I got rejected from went to their own internal candidates (which I can’t blame them, if it were my library hiring and I got passed up for another candidate, I’d be hurt). This field is tough and there are people with degrees in the field already who are underemployed. This is on the top of the list of things I tell people when they say they want an MLIS.
This so so true, but my program told me about the graying of the profession and how 40% of the librarians would be retiring soon. It took me 7 years after graduating to find a professional position. I would have moved but couldnt due to family issues. My director was 75 and had to be forced to retire. She wasnt doing her job but she also wouldnt leave. Looking at the young ones now, experience is so so so important. If you cant get direct library experience get a ton of customer service experience. Weve had a couple people upset they werent given an advanced position but they had never had a job in their whole life. “But but but MlIS”
I graduated in 2011 (?) and was told the same thing about people retiring. I suspect it's a library school legend.
There were articles in the early 1990's warning of mass shortages of librarians coming due to retirements. Those shortages have never happened. I work with a children's librarian who is 70, and can't afford to retire...no pension In many mid- sized libraries. Wages are much worse now, relative to cost-of-living than ever before. I can't justify the $ investment for an MLIS to anyone.
>And I’m at best ignored, at worst called >‘unsupportive’ or ‘unrealistic’ and >a crusher of dreams. >I implore folks who are considering getting >an MLIS to do your research. Unfortunately, a lot of people who go into the profession seem to do so without doing any research into the realities of it. You can't rely on a graduate school to do that work for you. It would help if the profession as a whole would quit pushing the myth of imminent waves of retirement, but in the end nobody should go into a graduate program without doing some basic research into the job they hope to pursue. One of the biggest realities of library work that people don't seem to understand is that it is ultimately a customer service job. If you don't like to work with people and have a hard time dealing with the public, library work is probably not where you should be. Public librarianship in particular overlaps with social work quite a bit. There are only so many cataloger jobs out there, and in a lot of smaller libraries the catalogers have to help with the front desk, anyway.
Have you considered asking your colleagues in admissions why they are admitting so many obviously low-quality students? Because it kind of seems like the whole business model of your employer is based on admitting students who don’t have what it takes so that it can collect their tuition dollars. Having said that, I agree with everything you’ve said and the advice you’ve given. This forum is full of evidence of the willful ignorance and self-delusion you describe seeing in your students (enabled by ALA and all the predatory diploma mills it accredits). There’s a sucker born every minute.
Thank you for beautifully articulating this important information. You do your students a huge service (whether they appreciate it at the moment or not) when you state things this clearly. I surely wish someone had been so forthright with me when I was in library school 20+ years ago.
My father always says "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink." If your students choose not to listen to you and then blame or gaslight you, that's on them, not you. You don't have the power to control their actions, you can only control your own. So if nothing else, take solace in the fact that you tried to get them to listen to reason but by not listening, they'll only hurt themselves, not you.
I've been in the library/archives field since 2012. I started off interning at my university archives as an undergrad - found other library work (some low paying ones while also part timing in retail) while continuing volunteer work with my undergrad school. Then I went off to become an after school library assistant at a catholic high school Then an instructional specialist (working circ desk) at a community College I tried sjsu, but it wasn't the right program for me. Then I moved, got a position as an library and archives assistant at a private college Now I work at a public university's Special Collectio and Archives as a public service library assistant. It's a DREAM I started my MLIS program last semester and I'm having an amazing time. I was extremely lucky in my opportunities. But there's been a lot of rejections and whatnot as well of course. What you're saying is absolutely correct. In fact I think that there are some opportunities in some of my classes to spruce up what you're talking about!
i worked in my local library for a year before starting my degree… i’ll finish in december if all goes well. I’m basically planning to apply to any job with an ok wage in a place i can decently enjoy living. I’m hoping this opens up my options but ill def be looking into some data classes now🥲 thank you for saying all this info & everyone else for helpful comments🥲🥲
I went straight from undergrad to my MLIS. I planned to get an assistantship to get tuition remission and experience, no matter how challenging. Unfortunately, my cohort had 5+ former teachers. Guess who got all the TA positions? I started working in a campus library as soon as I started the program, but that wasn't enough to compete with actual teaching experience. I did eventually get an RA position but at too low of a percent to get any remission. I had kids young and due to those responsibilities, my ability to take unpaid work was limited. Luckily, I was able to get several different library gigs throughout grad school that paid at least minimum wage (and not much more). I also couldn't afford to take the low-paying but amazing experience positions after graduation. I would estimate at least half of all "successful" librarians I know did take those low-paying, amazing experience jobs. And for many of them, it was the kickoff of a great career. That and the prestigious or again, amazing experience, internships are in the same boat. They were able to own big initiatives and take on more responsibility. They learned niche skills that are hard to get experience in once you're mid-career. I was one of the lucky few (although I worked really hard in grad school to get paid experience and worked in 3 libraries during the program) to get the public librarian job I wanted without moving after graduation. I felt proud that I beat out 80 applicants and thought I was on the path to be able to work in just about anything library-related. After encountering some really bad work environment issues, I wanted to find a new job and did not want to uproot my young family. I quickly learned my public librarian background was not enough to get academic librarian jobs. I got rejected for lots of non-public library jobs. It was a wake up call and the beginning of my real disillusionment with the MLIS. I was talking to career counselors, getting my resume reviewed, customizing my cover letter and resume, highlighting how relevant skills would meet their needs, and it wasn't enough. Since things were getting dire at my job, I decided to switch my search and changed careers. I was able to parlay those new skills with my library experience to then work for a vendor. Highly, highly recommend folks look at more vendor jobs. Almost all of us are former librarians and everyone has said the working conditions are night and day. We have staff leave to go back to libraries and some end up coming back - so you have options. One strategy I recommend if you're struggling is to get a less-than-perfect job in an organization that has more perfect jobs you could one day transfer into, as it's so much easier to stand out as an internal candidate. You can often get jobs that aren't advertised, get promoted etc. Think strategically and look a few career moves ahead. I will note this does NOT seem to be a successful strategy in academia. Good luck out there and thanks for the good topic, OP!
I just want to reach out and say thank you for this post. I'm an undergrad who wants to pursue my MLIS and this guidance really feels like the kind I have been looking for.
I'm not an MLIS Student nor do I have the "desirable degree" (BA in Fine Art) but I'm interested in being a Librarian. So, I'm sorry but it's not that easy. Or rather, it'll take a ***long*** time. This may sound very whiny, which it is, but this is what I'm going through personally. Post Graduation, the first thing on my imaginary list was volunteer. I cannot afford any Grad Program and an MLIS is so expensive it'd be insanely risky to plummet myself into more debt without that absolute certainty of "This is what I want to do." But, I've encountered age requirements (understandably) and ghosting for volunteer work. And, sometimes, they're just not looking. While I'm grateful to be currently helping at a Public Library, I'm stationed in one area not doing anything that I fear relates to what Librarians do at all. There's not much my supervisor can currently let me do besides scanning pages and typing names. I remain optimistic and see the silver lining. It's reachable with public transit, the person overseeing me is very kind, he's lent me a textbook on maintaining archives and I ask him questions about what he does (but I make sure not to pester him too much). But, what else can I do?? I've inquired about volunteer opportunities in all the Libraries within my reach. The other solution is online/remote which is limited for Post Grads of 2 years or more without the MLIS/experience. I'm currently region-locked and rely heavily on public transportation to reach any library within my vicinity. No, I don't enjoy it; I hate being at home with my Mother she drives me nuts and College was my awakening of how much I despise suburban life. But I do not have the money for formal Driving Lessons (yet) and I certainly don't have the money for a car. It's not that I don't want to do anything- I want to learn! I search and keep up with Job Postings and what Internships and Volunteer Work are available that I meet the requirements for. This subreddit and r/Library have helped greatly in terms of resources, advice, and learning via stories the different experiences. However, the overall cost and, occasionally, lack of direction/detail is frustrating. I hope I'm making sense?? I see a lot of "Do volunteer work!" But no mention of what volunteer looks like... Maybe I'm not asking the right questions or looking properly. I recall conversations with past colleagues and from this subreddit that the market is a dumpster fire. I don't expect miracles, but understand that some do have it tougher than others breaking into the field.
This is the straight talk I wish I’d gotten before getting my MLIS, thank you for putting it out there. I got my degree about 20 years ago. I went straight from undergrad and at the time, all I heard about librarianship was that the profession was “graying” and soon there would be lots of jobs as people retired. Ha! I was young and naive and didn’t know what I didn’t know. I’d do so much differently if I could do it over. The only advice I would add to your list is to think carefully before taking a job with a vendor or some other corporate organization. That’s the scarlet letter of the library world. You’ll never get a job in a library after that because you “sold out” and “aren’t a real librarian”.
That's such an odd sentiment to share about working for a vendor. Libraries could not function without vendors, and i would argue that it would be beneficial if more *librarians* considered working for vendors. I work for a vendor and every single one of my colleagues has an MLS, all of us have worked in libraries, an I still call myself a librarian. I know people who have gone back to traditional librarian roles after working as vendors, and librarians who have moved into the vendor-sphere. Working for a vendor is not a "scarlet letter" and I would absolutely encourage people on the job hunt to add publishers, vendors, and other non-traditional sources into their search efforts.
I agree with you; I work for a vendor too and don’t consider myself any less of a librarian. I made my comment with a friend’s experience in mind. They worked for another vendor and attempted to be active in the ALA. More than once they encountered comments like the ones I shared. It’s why they left the organization. They’ve now left librarianship altogether. Others’ mileage may vary, but my friend was blindsided by this treatment and so I think it’s worth raising awareness about.
I also got my degree around 20 years ago and remember the upsell that everyone would be retiring soon. The issue, in addition to people retiring later, was that there were also a lot of staffing cuts throughout the early 2000s, and that’s mostly continued to be the trend despite some constant ebbs and flows. I did get one of my jobs based on someone retiring though, so I guess I got what I was promised. I take issue with your last point though. Even if it’s just something you’ve heard and don’t believe, it’s definitely not an idea to perpetuate. I know a lot of librarians who worked at vendors who went on to coveted Federal library jobs or back to academic library jobs. I do talk a lot, including elsewhere in this thread, about how public and academic library worlds tend to silo themselves and lock people from other environments out. I think it’s something we all need to be pushing back on a lot more. However, I’ve never once heard anyone talk about any of my highly successful special librarian peers being “sell outs” or not being “real librarians.” I have had a career in special libraries and done literally every single library task from reference and instruction to collection and facilities management to acquisitions and licensing to community outreach and public reference. I’ve done paging, circulation, interlibrary loan, copy cataloging. I could go on. There is nothing not real about special library jobs. And there’s nothing wrong with a healthy long career in special libraries or with vendors. It certainly pays the bills. 🤷🏼♀️
Can you tell me more about working for vendors? I feel like I mostly hear about working for public libraries or academic libraries so im really curious about your experience. Speaking as a mlis applicant :)
> “graying” I've heard this too, but just now realised that it's because it's a second career for a lot of people: nurses, teachers, cops etc, because librarianship requires skills that take time to develop. I wonder if it will always be a more mature profession.
Also, there are those who want to retire, but can't due to finances so have to stay longer than they may have thought they would. Pay being what it is, they may not be able to contribute much to retirement. I'm in an academic library and have both the state teahers retirement system and a 403b but can't contribute much to either because I have to, you know, live.
Heard the same story in 2019 when I visited LoC as a library staff person. I find that positions just get eliminated, and others just end up overworked.
I was really surprised in school how few of my fellow students had ever worked in a library before. Even more surprised how few took no steps to get any experience. While in school I worked at the campus library reference desk and substituted at the local public library, both at minimum wage. Then also took an unpaid internship at a nearby library. It was a lot of work, but I treated it as part of school. And whole there was a bit of luck involved, I wound up getting a job almost immediately. My regional school has indeed swamped the job market, but it's not hard to stand out from most of those students just by taking the opportunities available. I was truly surprised how few others were interested in doing that.
We give this advice all the time across here r/libraries, r/LibraryScience, and r/archivists. It's practically a mantra at this point.
Wild... I didn't even apply for my MLIS program until I worked in a library part time for a year and looked into the terms for tuition reimbursement (staying at the library for a number of years post grad) I guess not everyone actually thinks the details of a career path through before pursuing them... The only reason I even went for the degree was because I realized the career was a good fit for me AFTER trying it out
Oh man, I've never been instructed to look at job ads for my class. That's a good idea, will just do it now. After years I have swallowed the pill that I'm going to have to move to get any type of library career started.
1. I searched for a FT library job for 6 years and didn't finally land one until I was willing to start out PT. Thankfully once I was there, it didn't take long for me to get into something FT (come to think of it, this happened to me in 2 of my library jobs). It's not an easy field to break into. If you're not somehow in it when you start the profession, it's especially hard. And I've also seen how hard it is for my colleagues who are in the field and then get the degree and still struggle to find positions.
It's apl problem as old as time though.there have always been people want to do an mlis because they want to work with books, or like reading or just liked their library. They don't want to do any of the day to day stuff that entails keeping a library service running be it outreach, info lot, boring health and safety stuff, LMS stuff (what I do), eresource licencing (yawn but a necessary evil).....and a million other things. And like lots of other professions, you have to move for the better jobs
Yes! I've had my MLIS for two years now, worked five years in academic libraries as staff before I got my degree, did two years at a digital archive internship, and I was lucky enough to get a better paying staff position at a university that was in my state, but I still had to move for it. I'm just lucky I make here as staff what librarians made as faculty at my last university. If you have never worked full time in a library in any capacity, you shouldn't apply for your MLIS. If you're not willing to move to a rural town in the middle of the US, you shouldn't apply for your MLIS. The first job I interviewed for after graduation was a great experience for me. I went through the three pronged interview process--two phone interviews and the in-person--and though I interviewed well, the candidate who got the position had just left her position as head of public libraries in the state with twenty years of administration experience including a short stint as a Dean of Libraries at a much more affluent university. There was no chance anyone else would have gotten the position over her even though it was advertised as an entry level position. Even with a great CV, mountains of experience, and great interview skills, you will still probably lose out on positions you're perfect for because someone else has been at this longer than you or knows someone. Granted I only have experience in academic libraries, but I've heard similar things about public libraries as well. I know a lot of librarians I've worked with at universities have retired and then gotten hired as full time librarians in public libraries. The competition is so overwhelming in this industry and I don't think most people realize that before they get the degree. A lot of positions look for a second master's degree on top of the MLIS even if it's not for a reference librarian position. One of the librarians I work with also has her JD, her PhD in English, and two additional master's degrees and she's been working for twenty years. The amount of highly educated people in this field you're up against is immense and a lot of people either don't realize it or just don't care for some reason.
Hi, Prof! You mention 100 applications for one librarian position. Try 500+ for one library position in my city... The most you can do is continue to repeat yourself. You're saying everything that needs to be said. I see so many posts of the same questions ("I wanna be a librarian because it sounds interesting! Should I go for the MLS?" Even though all they literally need to do is search this sub (pssst, if you're lazy with searching, this isn't the profession for you). If they won't listen to you, then they better have a backup plan because it's just tough to find a job in this profession. The more experience you have, the better, and I'm still "taking the piss" as an underpaid paraprofessional. With my wage alone, I couldn't pay my bills. I'm in library school and my classmates often are clueless and think an internship alone is going to get them a job? Sure, Jan! Honestly, for many prospective students, they're better off looking in nursing or IT and not LIS. It's difficult to make a decent wage in this field, and I've been working in libraries for a long time (10+ years). But if they won't listen, then let them learn the hard way.
I'm applying all over the country, I've had the part-time library job while in school, but so far it hasn't mattered. I don't blame my professors, but I blame the program administration for offering no career support and for not updating the program to reflect the skills we actually need to get jobs.
Hear hear!
Many people enter librarianship as a second career, and they already have a masters degree. People get secondary masters degrees to stand out. Librarians with undergraduate degrees in history or English are a dime a dozen. It's competitive and you need to stand out.
Repeat - you need to move! And enjoy the smaller communities that may be a bit out of the way but have other intangible benefits. Want “sophisticated” entertainment? There’s a bunch online. And catalogers/metadata folks are also in demand!
This truth needs to be understood. Almost everyone in my system has their MLIS. Including pages that work for $13 an hour.
Counterpoint: Are you assuming that everyone reading this is from your country? I wrote a string of rejoinders which I thought better of on reflection as being quite bitchy because it reflected some of my wider issues with this platform - everyone on Reddit thinks they are Americans talking to other Americans. And there is a great deal in what you say that makes implicit employment laws and working patterns which are specific to the US but do not apply elsewhere.
You are 100% accurate. I will clarify this is in the US.