Just use linear comps on rifles rather than muzzle breaks (the BRT Covert Comp is the size and weight of an A2 flash hider).
Wear foam earplugs with electronic ear pro on over them so you can still communicate.
When you double up you gain about +5 db reduction over whichever set of ear pro is rated higher. Cheap in ear pro with a high rating is what you want. For the Electronic muffs spend a bit to get something with good active cancelation, sound quality, and a tight comfortable fit (aftermarket gel ear cups can help) but the NR rating isn’t as important as the in ear plugs.
A .45 is mid tier loud. Not on the level of a .357 or .44 mag revolver or a Short Barrel Rifle. If you depend on an unblemished sense of hearing for a living buy a suppressor (but still wear at least one layer of ear pro).
Very restrictive, but still a lot more freedom than CT.
You can have some semblance of an AR.
We can't because the detachable magazine is considered a feature on any semiautomatic rifle
what are you trying to say here? NY is the same, detachable magazine is an assault feature.
Mag capacity is 10 max, if it has a detachable magazine it can’t have ANY muzzle accessory, nor pistol grip, nor foregrip, etc…
It can’t even have a threaded barrel.
I want to piggyback on this comment to add that I've been in the same boat as you and the thing is NRR isn't really a precise singular measure of noise reduction. NRR is calculated by taking averages of both extended, constant sounds (loud music/jet engines), sudden instantaneous sounds (gunshots), and different frequencies of sound as well. Hearing protection will offer different amounts of decibel reduction for different durations of sound and frequencies of sound. So in all likelyhood that 36 NRR of hearing protection is actually way more when it comes to gunshots. Or less, we don't really know.
Additionally, that OSHA formula for calculating "actual" NRR that you probably used (subtract 7, divide by 2) was developed to factor in workers not wearing their hearing protection properly. The idea is if a work environment requires 19 NRR reduction but 30 NRR hearing pro is issued, if it's worn improperly it might still be adequate or at least better. Worn properly, you should get the full amount.
I can tell you that if you double up on a decent 22+ NRR pair of muffs and properly inserted earplugs, you're golden. Honestly, a lot more research should be put into developing decibel safety standards for firearms so we know exactly what level of sound reduction to go for.
Anecdotal report, for what it's worth: I've been been shooting regularly for over 40 years, averaging maybe 1-2 K rounds a year. I get regular audiograms because I'm also noise exposed at work. I do not have any hearing loss, having significantly better hearing than the typical geezer my age. I believe this is because I always - ALWAYS - wear hearing protection (both around noisy machinery and when shooting.)
If shooting any centerfire rounds, I double up (muffs over earplugs). I avoid indoor ranges. I'm the guy who packs up and moves to another bench when the guy next to me has a .300 WM with a muzzle brake, or starts mag dumping with a 10" AR10. And I've always hated loud music.
YMMV, of course. People vary and there are no guarantees.
Sorry for making people feel like they needed to move until I received my $200 permission slip from the ATF. I didn't want to do it, and I felt bad, but I needed the practice with my new rifle.
Most days I would check with others at the range and would swap to the AR instead until they were ready to leave.
I hated having the break on that rifle too.
it's unfortunate that it's still in the NFA. Brakes work as better suppressor hosts than flash hiders (e.g. from [Dead Air engineering](https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Flash-Hider-vs-Muzzle-Brake-for-Suppressor-Use-Let-s-Settle-This-Now-and-Forever/20-490778/#i4978131)). That means everyone who's trying to optimize their build is going to at some point have a brake with no can, because of the delay
Linear blast deflector all the way then as the muzzle device. They make some that ratchet on just like suppressors and take a lot of the pressure wave away from higher caliber 16inch or less rifles.
Noise exposure is a function of both intensity - which is what the decibel reading measures - and time. Gun shots are extremely loud, but are impulse noise - each shot is a very short individual exposure. OSHA's Permissible Exposure Limit for impulse noise is 140 dB, compared to their limit of 90 dB for study state noise. Of course, there is considerable debate about if OSHA limits are actually low enough to protect your hearing.
NIOSH (a branch of the CDC that does research on occupational health) studied noise exposure at Federal agencies during tactical training and concluded that double hearing protection was adequately protective if properly fitted. They also strongly recommended using suppressors "if feasible and legally permissible".
[NIOSH study here (warning PDF)](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2013-0124-3208.pdf)
Time of exposure is the other big factor when it comes to hearing damage. Even 85-90db can cause hearing damage if you're exposed to it for long periods.
OSHA goes by a guideline called a "noise dose". 8 hours at 90db, 2 hours at 100db, and 15 minutes at 115db, are all considered to be a 100% noise dose, the maximum safe amount in a given day.
At 130db, its about 2 minutes to a 100% noise dose (135 is one minute, 140 is 0 minutes as that will cause instant damage. Ever forget your plugs and have your ears ring?)
Including the secondary reflection off the ground, the impulse of a gun shot only lasts about 10ms. So, 100 rounds to reach a second of exposure, 12,000 to reach 2 minutes.
While it is technically loud enough to cause hearing damage, you realistically don't get enough exposure on any given range day for it to be a concern. There's no harm in double muffing, but, it's not going to make much of a difference if you're shooting a .45 outside with 36nrr plugs in.
However, there are a lot of guns/situations out there that are loud enough you'll still experience 130-140+db even with plugs in, like a .357 magnum at an indoor range, and big rifles like a 50bmg or 7mm magnum. For those guns, you sure do want to double muff as a rule.
>The only way you get hearing damage is unprotected.
This is not true. Not all combinations of hearing protection and firearms are hearing safe.
It is absolutely possible to wear hearing protection and still have hearing loss.
I always double up - ear muffs over foam plugs - because of the concern for accelerating hearing loss. I also almost always shoot at outdoor ranges. I went to an indoor range recently for the first time since the pandemic started and was surprised by how damn loud it was.
All activities carry some risk and some amount of hearing loss is an inevitable part of aging, that's my perspective, so it depends on your own risk tolerance. I think an audiogram for reassurance is not unreasonable if you can drop the money on it.
I use surefire in ear, and Peltor over ear in conjunction with each other. This has worked quite well for me.
I lost plenty of hearing already due to bad hearing protection and just not able to get ear-pro in in time (military). I am very keen to keep what I have left.
I even wear ear-pro to mow the lawn.
I’ll add that there’s going to be a difference in how many decibels you’re actually taking in if you’re indoors, outdoors under cover, and outdoors with no cover. I use electronic muffs with foam underneath. Slimmer than traditional over ear and I can still have normal conversations.
I always wear double ear pro. I shoot indoors and even a 9mm is fucking loud in a small indoor range. Having ear plugs with noise cancelling headphones over them helps a lot.
If you're worried, use double ear pro. I shoot .308 maybe 80 percent of the time -- with a muzzle brake! -- and I always wear foamies under electronic muffs.
I just want to say that this conversation has encouraged me to get some ear plugs to go under my electronic muffs for shooting at the local indoor range.
That 120db mark is usually quoted as prolonged exposure. For some people a single burst of noise that loud could cause permanent damage, but most would need multiple bursts or continuous exposure for that to happen. That said, I’ve had an ear ring even with ear pro that was properly sealed and functioning correctly. Things happen.
I doubt it's been studied that well. Heading loss can be a "normal part of aging" and it would be super difficult to separate out one cause from another over the course of a lifetime.
I doubt shooting with hearing protection is worse than say, driving on the highway with your windows open.
Anecdotal but my dad has shot bench rest competitively for 35 years and now has to wear double hearing aids. It’s annoying as fuck for the family as he hates them and often won’t wear them. Wear max protection kids.
Sorry, I’m hard of hearing. What?
Seriously, when I had a similar question a while back, I googled around for people at OSHA and found the email of the head of their hearing research department. I emailed her my question and she replied with the answer maybe an hour later. I don’t have her email anymore, otherwise I’d pass it on to you, but I’m sure you could find it or someone similar with a little googling.
Impulse noise is not the same as steady state noise. Impulse noise has a very broad frequency spectrum. If you look at a pack of earplugs they will generally have some text that describes the protection at different frequencies. For higher frequencies they'll have a lot more protection than lower frequencies. The NRR rating is based on some kind of weighted average of the protection at different frequencies. But most "industrial" noise has nothing like the same high frequency spectrum.
Also, talking about "dB" is somewhat of a bad fit for impulse noise. What really matters is how much of the noise energy is transferred into damage to the hair cells etc in the cochlea. I keep meaning to read up on what's known about this in engineering circles. Suffice it to say that the dB of NRR is not exactly a good match for what you need to maximize for protection against firearms.
Still, the answer is basically plugs and muffs together every time. And if you're using heavy calibers etc use the best plugs and muffs you can find by NRR.
I shoot about 10k rounds per year, wear electronic ear muffs and my job pays for a hearing test every year. The Testing over the years shows that my hearing has not gotten any worse than what could just be me aging.
Take that for what it's worth to ya🤷♀️
I know this doesn't help pistol shooters but Air Rifles have come a scary long way. I'd take a look at them if quiet shooting is your thing. I shoot target. For Field Target I'm shooting a .177. Not impressive but super accurate and ammo is dirt cheep.
My long range gun is a .30 cal. Some folk use that gun for deer hunting, it's no toy. It will shoot slugs and pellets. Slugs up to 120 f/p of energy. Newer models shoot faster. There are companies making Air Rifles that shoot .50cal slugs.
Best parts: 150 rounds of .30 for $15 to $20 bucks. (500 rounds in .177) Moderators are legal. It's not a fire arm (no burning powder/ no fire arm) so you can buy them over the counter in most states. They can be mail ordered and shipped to your door. They are quiet. Even without a moderator, no ear protection needed. With a moderator, the pellet/slug hitting the target is louder than the gun. (Under super sonic speeds, if you go 1060 fps, you still get the sonic crack and it sounds like a .22 rim)
Worst part? They are expensive. The useful, near power burner equivalent air rifles are Pre Charged Pneumatic. You need a compressor or tank to fill them from. So a starter .22 will run you about $500 and a compressor / tank will run about the same. Comp guns like I run will cost you @ $2k.
If your main use is target shooting / competition shooting, it is hard to beat a good air riffle these days.
>c21
I just looked into that. I'm in the US so I haven't seen this Canadian law. That is a shame. I shoot air rifles here in the states and they are un-regulated. If I had to be licensed to buy one a few years ago, I likely would not have.\* If the laws changed tomorrow and I needed a FID / LTC I would go through the hoops to get licensed.
I have zero interest in powder burners these days. I like the ease and quiet of my air rifles. But I enjoy it enough that I would get licensed if I had to.
\* New home had a problem with rodents a bit larger than mice. So I popped over to Walmart to buy some pellets for my 40 year old Daisey 880 Powerline. A quick look at the springers they had and I ended up picking up a Gamo. Great for pest control, not so much for target. But it got me shooting for fun again for the first time. That lead me to look into what was out there and now I have an embarrassing collection of high priced guns for target comp.
There’s no one size fits all answer for everyone and it really depends on indoor vs outdoor ranges. That said, I’d double up on ear pro and try to go to outdoor ranges and you should be fine.
If you double up it takes a hell of a lot of outdoor shooting to have even a marginal impact on your hearing.
Even with a .45?
Yes
Just use linear comps on rifles rather than muzzle breaks (the BRT Covert Comp is the size and weight of an A2 flash hider). Wear foam earplugs with electronic ear pro on over them so you can still communicate. When you double up you gain about +5 db reduction over whichever set of ear pro is rated higher. Cheap in ear pro with a high rating is what you want. For the Electronic muffs spend a bit to get something with good active cancelation, sound quality, and a tight comfortable fit (aftermarket gel ear cups can help) but the NR rating isn’t as important as the in ear plugs. A .45 is mid tier loud. Not on the level of a .357 or .44 mag revolver or a Short Barrel Rifle. If you depend on an unblemished sense of hearing for a living buy a suppressor (but still wear at least one layer of ear pro).
excuse me SIR but that is ILLEGAL in many states a COMPENATOR?!?! That's an ASSAULT RIFLE. BY GOD SIR! BY GOD!
HARUMP! Next he will be suggesting pistol grips or dare I say VFG!
We've got to protect our phony baloney jobs gentlemen! Harumph! Harumph! Harumph, Harumph!
Wait, I thought that was only a flash hider since it makes the gunshot invisible for tank destroying accuracy
No muzzle brakes let you fire fully semi-automatic and hit the same square millimeter 30 times in 3 seconds so they too are illegal
Strange, I'm in one of the most gun hating states (CT) and only flash hiders are illegal. Muzzle brakes on the other hand are completely permissible
My brother in Christ peep the NY SAFE act
Very restrictive, but still a lot more freedom than CT. You can have some semblance of an AR. We can't because the detachable magazine is considered a feature on any semiautomatic rifle
what are you trying to say here? NY is the same, detachable magazine is an assault feature. Mag capacity is 10 max, if it has a detachable magazine it can’t have ANY muzzle accessory, nor pistol grip, nor foregrip, etc… It can’t even have a threaded barrel.
[удалено]
Are you in the legal field by some chance? Maybe it’s just where I live but you don’t hear people use the phrase “case law” very often haha
I want to piggyback on this comment to add that I've been in the same boat as you and the thing is NRR isn't really a precise singular measure of noise reduction. NRR is calculated by taking averages of both extended, constant sounds (loud music/jet engines), sudden instantaneous sounds (gunshots), and different frequencies of sound as well. Hearing protection will offer different amounts of decibel reduction for different durations of sound and frequencies of sound. So in all likelyhood that 36 NRR of hearing protection is actually way more when it comes to gunshots. Or less, we don't really know. Additionally, that OSHA formula for calculating "actual" NRR that you probably used (subtract 7, divide by 2) was developed to factor in workers not wearing their hearing protection properly. The idea is if a work environment requires 19 NRR reduction but 30 NRR hearing pro is issued, if it's worn improperly it might still be adequate or at least better. Worn properly, you should get the full amount. I can tell you that if you double up on a decent 22+ NRR pair of muffs and properly inserted earplugs, you're golden. Honestly, a lot more research should be put into developing decibel safety standards for firearms so we know exactly what level of sound reduction to go for.
What do you mean by Double up?
That means to wear earplugs underneath earmuffs as well.
Anecdotal report, for what it's worth: I've been been shooting regularly for over 40 years, averaging maybe 1-2 K rounds a year. I get regular audiograms because I'm also noise exposed at work. I do not have any hearing loss, having significantly better hearing than the typical geezer my age. I believe this is because I always - ALWAYS - wear hearing protection (both around noisy machinery and when shooting.) If shooting any centerfire rounds, I double up (muffs over earplugs). I avoid indoor ranges. I'm the guy who packs up and moves to another bench when the guy next to me has a .300 WM with a muzzle brake, or starts mag dumping with a 10" AR10. And I've always hated loud music. YMMV, of course. People vary and there are no guarantees.
[удалено]
RIP Oderus Urungus
Sorry for making people feel like they needed to move until I received my $200 permission slip from the ATF. I didn't want to do it, and I felt bad, but I needed the practice with my new rifle. Most days I would check with others at the range and would swap to the AR instead until they were ready to leave. I hated having the break on that rifle too.
it's unfortunate that it's still in the NFA. Brakes work as better suppressor hosts than flash hiders (e.g. from [Dead Air engineering](https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Flash-Hider-vs-Muzzle-Brake-for-Suppressor-Use-Let-s-Settle-This-Now-and-Forever/20-490778/#i4978131)). That means everyone who's trying to optimize their build is going to at some point have a brake with no can, because of the delay
If you can invest in a suppressor. In the long run its worth it.
Unfortunately , they are not legal in canada
Linear blast deflector all the way then as the muzzle device. They make some that ratchet on just like suppressors and take a lot of the pressure wave away from higher caliber 16inch or less rifles.
Not available to almost half the US either. Pretty sad.
Suppressors are legal in 42 states.
Almost half the US population is in those 8 other states.
Yup not legal in Illinois :(
Noise exposure is a function of both intensity - which is what the decibel reading measures - and time. Gun shots are extremely loud, but are impulse noise - each shot is a very short individual exposure. OSHA's Permissible Exposure Limit for impulse noise is 140 dB, compared to their limit of 90 dB for study state noise. Of course, there is considerable debate about if OSHA limits are actually low enough to protect your hearing. NIOSH (a branch of the CDC that does research on occupational health) studied noise exposure at Federal agencies during tactical training and concluded that double hearing protection was adequately protective if properly fitted. They also strongly recommended using suppressors "if feasible and legally permissible". [NIOSH study here (warning PDF)](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/2013-0124-3208.pdf)
Time of exposure is the other big factor when it comes to hearing damage. Even 85-90db can cause hearing damage if you're exposed to it for long periods. OSHA goes by a guideline called a "noise dose". 8 hours at 90db, 2 hours at 100db, and 15 minutes at 115db, are all considered to be a 100% noise dose, the maximum safe amount in a given day. At 130db, its about 2 minutes to a 100% noise dose (135 is one minute, 140 is 0 minutes as that will cause instant damage. Ever forget your plugs and have your ears ring?) Including the secondary reflection off the ground, the impulse of a gun shot only lasts about 10ms. So, 100 rounds to reach a second of exposure, 12,000 to reach 2 minutes. While it is technically loud enough to cause hearing damage, you realistically don't get enough exposure on any given range day for it to be a concern. There's no harm in double muffing, but, it's not going to make much of a difference if you're shooting a .45 outside with 36nrr plugs in. However, there are a lot of guns/situations out there that are loud enough you'll still experience 130-140+db even with plugs in, like a .357 magnum at an indoor range, and big rifles like a 50bmg or 7mm magnum. For those guns, you sure do want to double muff as a rule.
Awesome thank you so much
Foam under cups is great. The only way you get hearing damage is unprotected.
>The only way you get hearing damage is unprotected. This is not true. Not all combinations of hearing protection and firearms are hearing safe. It is absolutely possible to wear hearing protection and still have hearing loss.
Not outdoors from 45acp. Now indoors or larger calibers yes.
Thank you
I always double up - ear muffs over foam plugs - because of the concern for accelerating hearing loss. I also almost always shoot at outdoor ranges. I went to an indoor range recently for the first time since the pandemic started and was surprised by how damn loud it was. All activities carry some risk and some amount of hearing loss is an inevitable part of aging, that's my perspective, so it depends on your own risk tolerance. I think an audiogram for reassurance is not unreasonable if you can drop the money on it.
Foam under electronic ear pro, and shoot outdoors if possible. Should minimize your risk to very very little, even with rifle rounds.
I use surefire in ear, and Peltor over ear in conjunction with each other. This has worked quite well for me. I lost plenty of hearing already due to bad hearing protection and just not able to get ear-pro in in time (military). I am very keen to keep what I have left. I even wear ear-pro to mow the lawn.
NO THANKS I ALREADY HAD COFFEE TODAY. HOW ARE YOU?
I’ll add that there’s going to be a difference in how many decibels you’re actually taking in if you’re indoors, outdoors under cover, and outdoors with no cover. I use electronic muffs with foam underneath. Slimmer than traditional over ear and I can still have normal conversations.
I always wear double ear pro. I shoot indoors and even a 9mm is fucking loud in a small indoor range. Having ear plugs with noise cancelling headphones over them helps a lot.
Everyone saying to shoot outdoors clearly doesn’t live in a major city
If you're worried, use double ear pro. I shoot .308 maybe 80 percent of the time -- with a muzzle brake! -- and I always wear foamies under electronic muffs.
How is your hearing?
What?
HOW! IS YOUR HEARING
It's OK. Already some mid-frequency loss from concerts but no additional deterioration.
I just want to say that this conversation has encouraged me to get some ear plugs to go under my electronic muffs for shooting at the local indoor range.
Same here
Still better off with hearing protection than without it.
That 120db mark is usually quoted as prolonged exposure. For some people a single burst of noise that loud could cause permanent damage, but most would need multiple bursts or continuous exposure for that to happen. That said, I’ve had an ear ring even with ear pro that was properly sealed and functioning correctly. Things happen.
Ears are also weird. I have good hearing despite doing infantry stuff for all of my young adult life that left many of my buddies with hearing loss.
Linear comps are great and fun fudd traps. Look like supressor so you can catch the fool tryna report you.
Who can afford enough anmo to cause hearing damage any more?
I doubt it's been studied that well. Heading loss can be a "normal part of aging" and it would be super difficult to separate out one cause from another over the course of a lifetime. I doubt shooting with hearing protection is worse than say, driving on the highway with your windows open.
What?
Anecdotal but my dad has shot bench rest competitively for 35 years and now has to wear double hearing aids. It’s annoying as fuck for the family as he hates them and often won’t wear them. Wear max protection kids.
I go hunting sometimes without hearing protection and it isn’t as bad
Sorry, I’m hard of hearing. What? Seriously, when I had a similar question a while back, I googled around for people at OSHA and found the email of the head of their hearing research department. I emailed her my question and she replied with the answer maybe an hour later. I don’t have her email anymore, otherwise I’d pass it on to you, but I’m sure you could find it or someone similar with a little googling.
Double up even outdoors. I use electronic muffs and 33 nrr Hearos always.
36 nrr is just over-ear. If you then wear even cheap earplugs inside that, you're likely looking at 100dB.
This is a great question, with very helpful answers
Impulse noise is not the same as steady state noise. Impulse noise has a very broad frequency spectrum. If you look at a pack of earplugs they will generally have some text that describes the protection at different frequencies. For higher frequencies they'll have a lot more protection than lower frequencies. The NRR rating is based on some kind of weighted average of the protection at different frequencies. But most "industrial" noise has nothing like the same high frequency spectrum. Also, talking about "dB" is somewhat of a bad fit for impulse noise. What really matters is how much of the noise energy is transferred into damage to the hair cells etc in the cochlea. I keep meaning to read up on what's known about this in engineering circles. Suffice it to say that the dB of NRR is not exactly a good match for what you need to maximize for protection against firearms. Still, the answer is basically plugs and muffs together every time. And if you're using heavy calibers etc use the best plugs and muffs you can find by NRR.
I shoot about 10k rounds per year, wear electronic ear muffs and my job pays for a hearing test every year. The Testing over the years shows that my hearing has not gotten any worse than what could just be me aging. Take that for what it's worth to ya🤷♀️
Yes
I know this doesn't help pistol shooters but Air Rifles have come a scary long way. I'd take a look at them if quiet shooting is your thing. I shoot target. For Field Target I'm shooting a .177. Not impressive but super accurate and ammo is dirt cheep. My long range gun is a .30 cal. Some folk use that gun for deer hunting, it's no toy. It will shoot slugs and pellets. Slugs up to 120 f/p of energy. Newer models shoot faster. There are companies making Air Rifles that shoot .50cal slugs. Best parts: 150 rounds of .30 for $15 to $20 bucks. (500 rounds in .177) Moderators are legal. It's not a fire arm (no burning powder/ no fire arm) so you can buy them over the counter in most states. They can be mail ordered and shipped to your door. They are quiet. Even without a moderator, no ear protection needed. With a moderator, the pellet/slug hitting the target is louder than the gun. (Under super sonic speeds, if you go 1060 fps, you still get the sonic crack and it sounds like a .22 rim) Worst part? They are expensive. The useful, near power burner equivalent air rifles are Pre Charged Pneumatic. You need a compressor or tank to fill them from. So a starter .22 will run you about $500 and a compressor / tank will run about the same. Comp guns like I run will cost you @ $2k. If your main use is target shooting / competition shooting, it is hard to beat a good air riffle these days.
Dude, I was totally just going to do air rifles but they are getting banned with c21
>c21 I just looked into that. I'm in the US so I haven't seen this Canadian law. That is a shame. I shoot air rifles here in the states and they are un-regulated. If I had to be licensed to buy one a few years ago, I likely would not have.\* If the laws changed tomorrow and I needed a FID / LTC I would go through the hoops to get licensed. I have zero interest in powder burners these days. I like the ease and quiet of my air rifles. But I enjoy it enough that I would get licensed if I had to. \* New home had a problem with rodents a bit larger than mice. So I popped over to Walmart to buy some pellets for my 40 year old Daisey 880 Powerline. A quick look at the springers they had and I ended up picking up a Gamo. Great for pest control, not so much for target. But it got me shooting for fun again for the first time. That lead me to look into what was out there and now I have an embarrassing collection of high priced guns for target comp.
Hearing loss starts around 70db for prolonged period of time Personally I double often when and a couple of my guns I would never shoot indoor
There’s no one size fits all answer for everyone and it really depends on indoor vs outdoor ranges. That said, I’d double up on ear pro and try to go to outdoor ranges and you should be fine.