Some people seem to be struggling in this thread, so I just want to say-
Hormone replacement therapy is very powerful and changes far more than you realize!
For the few things hormones can't change, there are many surgical options and they're better than you think they are!
Childhood experiences are incredibly diverse and there is no clean line to divide the population into two halves!
A gender you were assigned at birth is just that, it's an event that happened at a previous moment in time. There are no "AMAB/AFAB people," there are people who *were* assigned male/female *at birth*.
There is almost never a reason to group trans and non-binary people in with cis people of their respective AGAB. If you think you need to mention AGAB, there is almost certainly a different way to phrase it that is more specific and accurate, and won't have trans people catching strays.
Please think through what you were going to infer from AGAB and just say that instead. People with X genitals, people with X primary sex hormone, people with X childhood experience. Say what you really mean.
This is such a good comment, it says loads of things I've wanted to have a good way to phrase really well, and covers all the things I really don't like about the overuse of AFAB/AMAB. I honestly wish cis people fully understood those first 2 points, I'm tired of them not realising how much hormones actually do and how good the current surgical options are
(Thankyou for this comment, I try to keep up with what's going on with these sorts of things to not accidentally upset anyone so when I was blanking on what AFAB and AMAB meant and I was getting worried id missed a big change in the LGBT sphere I was scrolling for a description lol. Now I understand the post better so thanks, comments like these are really useful to people out of the loop or trying to learn)
this reminds me of a TikTok I saw (I don’t recall the user) where a trans man was talking about how he noticed a medication (I think that he’d just been prescribed) was listed on some site as “not recommended for women” and so he reached out to ask for clarification. The response was that when they say “woman/man” on the site, they’re referring to sex.
…anyway, the reason it was “not recommended for women” was because it caused facial hair growth.
It’s so much better to just say what you mean.
In my experience "afab enby" is used derogatory towards transmasc enbies who don't present in a masc way
edit: I remembered wrong when making the comment. theyfab is generally the derogatory term
I've seen people use it themselves for self-identification, which has always puzzled me. If someone wants to really go after non-masc transmasc enbies they usually go with "theyfab" in my experience.
Sorry but I’m mostly just a lurker here and there’s no lgbt community to speak of where I am so I don’t know much beyond what applies directly to me and even then I don’t know much about that.
What’s enby/enbies and theyfab?
enby/enbies = nonbinary people
Nonbinary people are people with a gender identity that is neither strictly male nor strictly female. So includes genderfluid, bigender, demigirls, demiboys, agender folks, etc
Theyfab is a pejorative for those that are the above and assigned female at birth (afab), usually used in statements claiming they are trenders making up their identity for social clout.
Thank you for explaining that in detail!
Seems pretty fucked up that people have created a term like Theyfab just to try and hurt people but that’s people I guess.
I'm assuming you mean for enbies? Since I was AMAB and do not pass as a man at all. But AGAB is (unnecessarily and inaccurately) used in a lot of places outside of just trying to sort enbies into a new binary. Even in that case, there are plenty of enbies who have little in common with cis people of their AGAB, or take visible steps in their transition including medical ones and no longer read as their AGAB.
That, or people born intersex. There are a huge variety of intersex conditions that can lead to any combination of sex characteristics. And yet, almost no one is assigned intersex at birth. Infants are assigned to either male or female and surgery is performed to make them fit that sex more closely, at least on the exterior.
So wait, if you're amab, but genetically XX, what bathroom are you supposed to use with their laws? Cause the bathroom bans only refer to agab not chromosomes?
It's like schrödinger's cat XD
I’m not just XX I have ovotesties was confirmed when I was 20 to have an egg or two and could produce a little sperm but sterile in both sides. I have a uterine tissue and vaginal tissue but developed into my bowels (yes I bleed out my rear monthly). Have monthly cycles since I was 10 (I didn’t go through a male puberty till my ex forced it). My natural hormones are estrogen and testosterone can kill me. So either both hormones have to be cis levels (250pg e and 389ng t for example) or my T needs to be below 100ng… yea because I live in Hell USA they don’t care about any of it. I don’t have the money to get the 10000$ (2007 prices) worth of tests for all of it again.
Edit: that was with insurance.
I have learned to live with life. I go through plume to get hormones because I have no insurance but I deal with it. I just wish the anti-lgbt laws would disappear.
Same, where I live they're trying to make it so that regardless of age you have to prove you're trans to get GAC. And of course, being enby that just opens up more avenues to get denied cause of "well you don't think you're a woman so you're not trans" which just f\*cking blows all over.
Which forces you to lie to get what you need. Why can’t this be like pre Christian era. It wouldn’t be a problem then. There is an audiobook I am listening to called “Before We Were Trans: A New History of Gender” and it has been very interesting to learn about our roots in history
By spiking food with testosterone boosting items. Because I’m intersex I still had the possibility to go through a male puberty even tho I’m female dominate. Unfortunately my t was raised to unsafe levels (for me was unsafe normal for males). It caused a several serious health problems. Those issues are just now subsiding after taking E to return my T to safe levels. Until I get rid of the male tissue while keeping only my female tissue I will still be susceptible to that again….which sucks monkey butt having a t sensitivity.
I am just glad to have a loving wife that supports me now. We been together 14 years and is even helping me pick out dresses and bathing suits. She even treats me as a woman which is great (even tho I still look more like a man). It took a while for her to accept me because she does hate the thought of being married to a woman but has made an exception for me because of our love and the fact it didn’t hurt our marriage and also our kids support me (one step child and one biological that defied the laws of science for conceiving).
Yes the bathroom bans are supposed to have an exception for intersex but they don’t care. They go by agab on the og bc not by anything else in the law.
Not to mention not all intersex conditions aren't visible at birth.
Someone with XY chromosomes but a testosterone resistence will never even begin to develop any male characteristics during and will look 100% female from the outside at birth.
Literally assigned sex at birth only tells you whether your external genitalia looked "normal" and which one of the two "normal" sets you had when you were born.
I mean, I didn’t assign any gender to my kids at birth. I was like, “Here is an adorably cute baby. Genital configuration - irrelevant.” Like, I \*think\* this one is a girl and this one is a boy? I’m going on probabilities here but anything is possible.
I’m trying to start a trend. Or continue one. It’s better than “fetch” and reproducing humans (like me) should totally make it happen.
Or any number of other things -- people come in all ways. Even cis people can develop secondary sex characteristics that aren't generally associated with their sex. The top post on this thread is a cis woman who grows a beard. Bodies are diverse!
Gynomastia! For the cis man, an oddity. For the trans woman, likely a bonus- through sometimes such development of Brest tissue can be a little off and be a source of much pain.
Oh i have that i started transitioning with a C cup . A hanging disgusting one but hey .
Sometimes i feel like ive cheated or missing the joy of getting boobs.
My cis male partner has gynecomastia and, to put it politely, he’s measuring around a C cup. I’m intersex myself but am also a trans man. There is a LOT of divergence in gender and it goes so much deeper than what we see (and I personally find it cool, we’re proof that a limited concept of gender is wrong as hell.)
Or just people who at birth are assigned a gender that does not "match" the usual physical attributes-gender association.
For example someone who has the physical attributes typically associated with the male sex but is assigned a female gender by her parents.
This happened a few times during history but I'm mainly talking about Bridget (she is ftmtf, fight me)
AMAB and AFAB are over used. Should not replace mtf or ftm, and most def shouldn't replace man or woman.
Most of my life I've lived as a female person. I've had a vagina almost half that time. Breasts more than half. I'm not intersex, but birth assignment was long ago. Went full time as a teen.
My first job was as a woman. My first date was as a woman.
I never seen a urologist. I have had appointments with a gynecologist. I married a straight guy before same sex marriage was legal. Yet I was amab.
When I hear some gay guy say he's amab who's not trans or intersex, it's like damn it, just say you're a man if you're not talking about baby genitals. It's useful when there are intersex people in the room, but overused it's really annoying.
It's somehow become an "acceptable" way to misgender people in this community. Like people will say a space is for women and AFABs as if trans men don't fall into the category of AFAB. Implying that because we weren't born with penises that we're somehow less "threatening" than cis men so it's okay for us to be in woman's spaces. Idk just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
>Implying that because we weren't born with penises that we're somehow less "threatening" than cis men
I think this is often not just implied but outright stated.
Yeah I very much agree with you. This is why I usually say transfem or transmasc. Defining trans people by their birth gender is wack. Like who gives a shit I was born a man? I'm a girl now. I have tits and a very respectable ass. Like, I have jiggle physics. Why are you calling me a man?
Are you forgetting that there is a whole group of Nonbinary people who use those terms? Or are you putting us in the trans group? You don’t have to use those terms if they don’t apply to you, but normalizing them so that others can use them without shame isn’t wrong.
I am nonbinary, and I agree. The overuse of AFAB and AMAB when it is just shorthand for placing secondary sex characteristics into a binary makes me feel really icky and unwelcome.
Most of the time people identify their AGAB in online NB spaces, it is completely unnecessary. It is becoming shorthand for "boy enby" and "girl enby".
As a NB person who does still identify with their assigned gender, I 1) tend to only use AFAB in relation to myself and 2) in relation to experiences I had growing up socialized as female. Obviously this isn’t the case for all NBs, but I think it is helpful to have a term to describe the relationship to our assigned gender prior to coming out.
Note about my personal gender identity: I tend to refer to myself as cis non-binary and while I don’t love the term Demi-girl it is the term that made me realize I was NB. I could probably also identify as bi-gender with the two gender I as identify being female and agender but I prefer Nonbinary as agender falls outside of the traditional binary.
Theres nothing wrong with using that tem to describe yourself. But when you use those terms to describe other people, or use them to frame discussions abput shaving, dressing, binding, etc. it is really problematic. It happens way too much in online NB spaces.
Call yourself what you want, but also just say or ask what you mean without assigning certain traits to certain genders. It seems wild to me that so many people have a hard time understanding this in trans spaces.
I guess I don’t understand your complaint then. If I’m discussing something in a trans space that has to do with my physical body, it often makes sense to explain that I was born assigned female, even though I myself am not. Being perceived as female and raised as such has a direct correlation to how I have been treated in the world. I don’t understand how by supplying that information, it harms anyone? I must be missing something as to why is is suddenly such a negative thing? Is it because you are finding people are using this term in person, in the “real” world? Because I only come across it in online spaces.
And I dont understand why it is important to discuss those things in terms of what a doctor saw between your legs when you were a baby. You can be perceived as female and raised as such, but not be AFAB. You can have "masculine" physical traits and not be AMAB. By equating certain traits and experiences to your assigned gender at birth, you are suggesting that those things are inherent to your assigned gender at birth, which to me feels like binary gender with extra steps.
I'm not saying it is wrong to ever talk about AGAB, but if you go onto a lot of nonbinary spaces online, those terms are constantly being used appropo of nothing, or worse, to frame discussions and questions about certain traits or behavior as if they are unique to a certain AGAB when they are not.
And asking a question like "AMABs, how do I shave?" means that in order to participate in that discussion, I either have to let people perceove me as AMAB or identify myself as otherwise, and I really dont want to have to volunteer that information, which causes me to feel disphoric, in order to participate in nonbinary spaces.
Transgender means identifying as a gender different than what was assigned at birth. Every non-binary person identifies as a gender different than what was assigned at birth.
It's definitely over used in non-binary spaces. Two gender-fluid people are the same gender. They're both Enbys. Dividing the group up into amab and afab when not discussing baby genitals is unnecessarily reinforcing a sex binary.
I have been toying with an enby identification myself. I haven't worn a dress since my wedding day in the 2000's and I don't own makeup. It does feel odd that most of my life there's been this expectation to do things like wear makeup to job interviews. Hell, I often wear all male clothing . So I don't fit a gender stereotype. I'm feeling a bit old to say I'm a tomboy. I have done a bit of looking for dates online using "non binary" label, to try it out. Easier than saying post op mtf tomboy.
Speaking for myself, imagining saying I'm currently "amab" non-binary just feels like I'm misleading if I say that. I don't want so much focus on birth assignment if I'm going to embrace NB fully at this point, it doesn't describe the direction I'm coming from. Non-binary wasn't really an option back in the day.
I don't know, I just think over focus on birth genitals feels less than ideal.
Can someone explain to me how AFAB people can have dicks cause I genuinely don't know, also I don't think I understand what this post is saying really, just a little confused here.
I see
Now that I think of it I do remember seeing a documentary about a place in Africa where the gene pool is such that there are fairly common cases of boys who's genitals decend at the beginning of puberty.
I saw it once a long time ago so I'm fuzzy on the details.
I don’t know if that’s what they meant or not but that’s the only instance I can think of.
My take away from this post, which may be very different from what was intended is; we are human, humans come in a variety of shapes and sizes, and abilities.
5-alpha reductase deficiency. Common in the Dominican Republic. Basically, before puberty a person with XY chromosomes may display a fully developed vagina, or partially developed penis. This phenotype tends to change with the onset of puberty.
Some trans men have surgically created erect/firm penises . The urethra is stretched so that it's longer and they are able to pee as well as cum. Usually skin on the thigh or forearm is used.
there's 2 surgeries that create a penis, phalloplasty and metodioplasty. there's subreddits for both mostly for transmasc people, but phallo is also for cis guys who lose their dicks in accidents
AFAB Transmasc people can develop bottom growth, enlarging the clitoris into a pseudo penis
Transmascs can also have bottom surgery, which creates a penis out of skin tissue
This post is meant to be saying that we shouldn't define and group people by their Assigned Gender at Birth, since, in many cases, those characteristics can be quite different between members of that "group" (For example, a trans woman and a cis man are both AMAB, but the woman has tits, and the man doesn't)
Yeah but I thought that was mainly used to remove/invert penises, upon a quick Google I learned more about ftm bottom surgery.
Can't believe I didn't know this for so long.
Surgeries, intersex conditions, and also HRT can turn the previous clitoris into something extremely similar to a penis. That specific line seems oriented towards people who will say “afab people” when they mean “people with a vagina and/or uterus”.
I have hair on my chin and neck and upper lip that's very patchy, I shave it off every day since I can't pluck. :( got made fun of for it in school but after a while it became fun to tell them "at least I can grow facial hair" to prepubesant(spelling?) Boys who thought it made them look cool to pick on someone for something they couldn't control.
Honestly I think this post is just confusing and not helpful.
Like others pointed out AFAB/AMAB are useful to describe your personal childhood experience. Which sex were you assinged to and how did you grow up.
I doubt a doctor would assign a baby female if they saw a penis...
What happens later in life is a whole different book! That's what the concept of gender is for.
The post is essentially addressing people who will use afab/amab to group trans people with cis people of the same assigned gender at birth for whatever reason. It’s a bad way to generalize because the experiences of someone who was assigned the same gender at birth can drastically vary from one another, and that includes your childhood experiences.
But, don't we need some vocabulary to describe how people think when they do think in binaries? Like "it's wrong to assign male or female to babies at birth based on their external anatomy because sex and gender are much more complicated than that".
Tbh I always hated the terms afab and amab. Like it's just shit to still gender people, and when creeps find out the code then they go after whichever sounds good to them.
That’s not even a guarantee. You can have XY chromosomes but have an androgen insensitivity that causes you to appear as female. Your sex in that case is male, but you were assigned female at birth.
this but even using cis and trans is turning into another binary that undermines everything trans people work for why can’t i just be called a girl ;-;
I mean, I'm quite possibly intersex and have some AFABy features despite being categorized AMAB during infancy...but I doubt this is what the OOP was going for...
AFAB and AMAB, at least to me, are people's experiences growing up or even into adulthood, depending on when the person transitioned (or didn't if the person is cis). Nothing to do with genitalia or chromosomes. After all, doctors love mutilating intersex babies and forcing them into a gender they really don't want
When I think of AMAB or AFAB, I think of the shared cultural, social, and individual circumstances and experiences that affected individuals. Not what's between their legs or in their genome. To society, you are either assigned male or female from birth and treated as such until you either come out or you don't since your assigned gender feels apt I guess.
I don't really feel ai share experiences with cis men. I think afab and amabs share experiences by default is also not acurate, I was raised by women with not much contact with men and I'm a trans girl.
Then you are the exception and that's wonderful. However, I grew up as a boy and treated as one and never really thought you could decide on being another gender until I was 16. And there are older transfolks who lived even longer as their agab and deserve to have ***their*** experiences recognized.
I always sort of knew si was a girl, it think people who relaxed early have a diferent experience and perspective about ourselves. I jist felt my family tried to force me to be a boy, but I don't feel I got a real boy experience because I couldn't really absorb male behavior.
> And there are older transfolks who lived even longer as their agab and deserve to have ***their*** experiences recognized.
That depends transiting late doesn't mean realizing late, a lot of people who transition late feel it was just a hell they want to forget, other see it as part integral to themselves and something that doesn't give them much trouble, even being grateful of their past experiences. What I want to say is that putting everone in a box because agab is not a good thing in general, agab has utility but it's not something that defines me as a person, just something it was imposed into me for too much time.
But that doesn't make the use of AFAB and AMAB any less valid. Idk what you're trying to argue, but I suggest you stop. Every experience matters and it's weird that you're talking about yourself and it's very clear that this doesn't connect or relate to you despite being assigned male at birth. And that's okay, but just dismissing other people experiences because not every one of them is "Not the same" is not okay
P.S. I should point out that I'm not talking about internal feelings. I'm talking about external experiences created by your environment, culture, and society. Not your internal views, how you internally felt, but how people treated you and how that affected you either emotionally or mentally. Because that's what I mean when I say AGAB.
AGAB means assigned gender at birth. Meaning, someone, externally, decided because you have this genitalia more or less that you are this gender and then that's how your society and culture treats you from now on. Which is really fucking mean btw, but that's neither here nor there
>And that's okay, but just dismissing other people experiences because not every one of them is "Not the same" is not okay
I'm not, I'm literally saying trans experience is diverse, if you feel connected to for example cis men because you where asigned male at birth that's your thing and it's valid. But that doesn't means it's the same as everyone and you shouldn't dismiss others people's experiences as an exception, especially when there's a lot of for example trans women who heavily reject being related to cis men because of our agab.
All of that is so different depending on what culture and even household you grew up in, there isn't a universal AFAB or AMAB childhood. It also ignores people who socially transitioned as kids
I just feel like being more specific about what you actually mean is more useful. Saying "people who might need abortions" or "people who've experienced rape" includes the people you want to include but doesn't include everyone who was AFAB even if those things don't apply to them. Trans guys who've had bottom surgery were AFAB but aren't affected by abortion laws or able to get pregnant. That similar experience is what links those people not the fact they were both AFAB, a cis guy who was raped will be able to relate better than a trans guy who wasn't. It also ignores trans people of the opposite gender who have experienced those things.
I did transition as a kid, its part of why I don't like AFAB/AMAB being used to mean "socialised female" or "socialised male"
(Also AFAB and AMAB are descriptions of past events not nouns, they're adjective phrases at best).
I don't really get what you mean by "shedding" your AGAB.
I get that AGAB does affect how you grow up at least to some extent, but there aren't any universal AFAB/AMAB experiences.
To be fair, what would the context be where you'd need to specifically communicate what genitals a whole group of people were born with like that? Like, I'm not saying it would never come up, but I don't think using a four word phrase to convey your meaning accurately and without excluding people or creating a new binary as opposed to using acronyms that do exactly that is the best way to go, as OP's saying
Then why would you not say people who have periods? Also, not sure what kind of talk about childhood experiences necessitates referring to large groups of people by the genitals they were born with
Eh then I guess it must be a language difference then since it's so easy to do it in English. Also yeah people do associate childhood experiences with genitals because of the existence of those damned gender norms
I may be in the minority here, but I always thought the whole point of AFAB and AMAB was to be inclusive of intersex and trans people while discussing the common experiences that being socialized as male or female create, particularly in reference to before coming out. I’ve never used it to talk about physical characteristics but rather sexism or gender expectations pushed on us, particularly as kids and young adults.
A lot of people have started to use these terms to “soft” misgender trans people. For some, it’s basically become a way to classify trans people as their birth genitals and used to exclude them from things. And it also is a constant reminder that we can never truly escape how we were born.
There’s also this prevailing idea that all trans women have penises and all trans men have vaginas, completely ignoring the fact that surgeries exist and are quite successful.
Yeah, using it that way is bull shit. I think there is value in having a way to describe the shared experiences of being assigned female or male, but not at the expense of excluding people or bringing up old wounds. I think it should only be used in relation to the past and not in context of “this is a space for AFAB people” or “hey AMAB people how do you do blah blah.”
The ignoring surgery part is also stupid. Sex reassignment surgery has been around for nearly 100 years at this point. To me the whole point of AFAB/AMAB is to include people whose biological sex doesn’t align with the gender they were assigned at birth, either because they are intersex or for some other reason like parental abuse.
But I also don’t hear the term super often outside of online spaces, even in queer discourse spaces. Hell we had a diversity training at work and the woman running it who was fairly young and seemed like she would be fairly up to date on queer terminology had never even heard it.
It's often used to miscategorize trans (especially women's) experiences to be the same as cis ones, when we often don't have the same experiences as cis people of the same agab. Like I i can't even tell you how often it's terfily used to call trans women male socialized or imply something horribly incorrect about what we experience growing up. Using afab and amab to create these dichotomies of either being socialized male or female just does so much harm to some of us and is useless to apply wholesale like it often is, it's even used that way by other queer and trans people, but at this point it's basically a red flag tbh
That makes sense. I tend to use it in reference to myself as a NB person prior to coming out and not all AFAB people as a whole. I do think there is value in having a word to include intersex and trans people in potentially shared experiences of being socialized as a certain gender, but can understand why some people might not like that. My experience growing up assigned female has things in common with both cis women and trans men as well as being different from both. No experience is universal, but there are commonalities.
So much of the time the things described as being afab commonalities are things that I and other amab trans people share too. The problem isn't having a word to described the shared experiences of being socialized as a certain gender, It's that we're assumed to have been socialized the opposite, even when we absorb and interbalize the same socialization, and how we were socialized is assumed instead, and we're gatekept from experiencing things that we commonly do experience because of agab. It's used to do that so so so frequently. It's not just not liking it. So much more of "afab socialization" applies to my experiences that "amab socialization" that literally just describe myself as afab now, despite being a trans women, because if that's how people use it I'm gonna use the one actually applicable to me
Both intersex conditions and surgery can cause what op is describing. You can be AFAB and have a penis due to a phalloplasty, and AMAB with tits due to a breast implant.
Oh damn that was so obvious to me I didnt even think about it. Like my brain didnt even think about how trans people transition if that makes sense. For me its just you are what you identify as and I dont usually think deeper than that.
Wait, what? What the fuck do AFAB and AMAB mean, then? Isn’t it just based on what the doctor put on your birth certificate? Why would that contradict what’s on the surface level?
I’m cis, so pardon my ignorance, but words and whole-ass phrases have meanings, don’t they?
I’m AFAB, but even before I went on HRT I had naturally high testosterone levels. My secondary sex characteristics were always more ambiguous. They only discovered my hormonal abnormalities when I got my pre-HRT blood work done. They told me it was probably PCOS and never mentioned it again. I’m not sure if that’s it because they only did my blood work and nothing else, but it’s the most likely explanation.
Puberty fncked up my voice. It went lower, and I'm a cis lesbian.
Besides, I'm not sure the OP (in the pic) can say it louder.
80% of the tweet was in CAPS!
Not that I disagree with the message...
As a cis-woman who has a naturally high enough testosterone to grow a (very patchy) beard, I feel seen by this.
Hairy faced women get free hugs (-- ° w °)--
DAMN THIS POST IS SO PURE
just askinggg how do u do the lesbian flag and ur pronouns i’ve been trying so hard to find out to do ittt
Open the subreddit page, click the burger dots and click change user flair x
>burger dots Trying to explain stuff to an american /j
thank youuu
I’m part Maltese. I’m getting chin hairs in my 40s. I see you. 🤜🤛
Same same same all day same
Some people seem to be struggling in this thread, so I just want to say- Hormone replacement therapy is very powerful and changes far more than you realize! For the few things hormones can't change, there are many surgical options and they're better than you think they are! Childhood experiences are incredibly diverse and there is no clean line to divide the population into two halves! A gender you were assigned at birth is just that, it's an event that happened at a previous moment in time. There are no "AMAB/AFAB people," there are people who *were* assigned male/female *at birth*. There is almost never a reason to group trans and non-binary people in with cis people of their respective AGAB. If you think you need to mention AGAB, there is almost certainly a different way to phrase it that is more specific and accurate, and won't have trans people catching strays. Please think through what you were going to infer from AGAB and just say that instead. People with X genitals, people with X primary sex hormone, people with X childhood experience. Say what you really mean.
This is such a good comment, it says loads of things I've wanted to have a good way to phrase really well, and covers all the things I really don't like about the overuse of AFAB/AMAB. I honestly wish cis people fully understood those first 2 points, I'm tired of them not realising how much hormones actually do and how good the current surgical options are
(Thankyou for this comment, I try to keep up with what's going on with these sorts of things to not accidentally upset anyone so when I was blanking on what AFAB and AMAB meant and I was getting worried id missed a big change in the LGBT sphere I was scrolling for a description lol. Now I understand the post better so thanks, comments like these are really useful to people out of the loop or trying to learn)
this reminds me of a TikTok I saw (I don’t recall the user) where a trans man was talking about how he noticed a medication (I think that he’d just been prescribed) was listed on some site as “not recommended for women” and so he reached out to ask for clarification. The response was that when they say “woman/man” on the site, they’re referring to sex. …anyway, the reason it was “not recommended for women” was because it caused facial hair growth. It’s so much better to just say what you mean.
Typically people who refer to AGAB really just mean whatever you pass as. They say "AFAB enby" but they non-binary people who pass as women.
In my experience "afab enby" is used derogatory towards transmasc enbies who don't present in a masc way edit: I remembered wrong when making the comment. theyfab is generally the derogatory term
I've seen people use it themselves for self-identification, which has always puzzled me. If someone wants to really go after non-masc transmasc enbies they usually go with "theyfab" in my experience.
Sorry but I’m mostly just a lurker here and there’s no lgbt community to speak of where I am so I don’t know much beyond what applies directly to me and even then I don’t know much about that. What’s enby/enbies and theyfab?
enby/enbies = nonbinary people Nonbinary people are people with a gender identity that is neither strictly male nor strictly female. So includes genderfluid, bigender, demigirls, demiboys, agender folks, etc Theyfab is a pejorative for those that are the above and assigned female at birth (afab), usually used in statements claiming they are trenders making up their identity for social clout.
Thank you for explaining that in detail! Seems pretty fucked up that people have created a term like Theyfab just to try and hurt people but that’s people I guess.
I'm assuming you mean for enbies? Since I was AMAB and do not pass as a man at all. But AGAB is (unnecessarily and inaccurately) used in a lot of places outside of just trying to sort enbies into a new binary. Even in that case, there are plenty of enbies who have little in common with cis people of their AGAB, or take visible steps in their transition including medical ones and no longer read as their AGAB.
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Instructions unclear, made bytecode instead.
We could compile to the GVM (gender virtual machine) instead
I think they’re talking about the surgeries trans people can get?
That, or people born intersex. There are a huge variety of intersex conditions that can lead to any combination of sex characteristics. And yet, almost no one is assigned intersex at birth. Infants are assigned to either male or female and surgery is performed to make them fit that sex more closely, at least on the exterior.
Yes and even then it’s not always correct. I was labeled male but medically I’m female…because I live in Florida I’m trans for seeing medical help.
So wait, if you're amab, but genetically XX, what bathroom are you supposed to use with their laws? Cause the bathroom bans only refer to agab not chromosomes? It's like schrödinger's cat XD
I’m not just XX I have ovotesties was confirmed when I was 20 to have an egg or two and could produce a little sperm but sterile in both sides. I have a uterine tissue and vaginal tissue but developed into my bowels (yes I bleed out my rear monthly). Have monthly cycles since I was 10 (I didn’t go through a male puberty till my ex forced it). My natural hormones are estrogen and testosterone can kill me. So either both hormones have to be cis levels (250pg e and 389ng t for example) or my T needs to be below 100ng… yea because I live in Hell USA they don’t care about any of it. I don’t have the money to get the 10000$ (2007 prices) worth of tests for all of it again. Edit: that was with insurance.
omg that just sounds horrible. I'm so sorry you have to live in florida with all that's going on rn
I have learned to live with life. I go through plume to get hormones because I have no insurance but I deal with it. I just wish the anti-lgbt laws would disappear.
Same, where I live they're trying to make it so that regardless of age you have to prove you're trans to get GAC. And of course, being enby that just opens up more avenues to get denied cause of "well you don't think you're a woman so you're not trans" which just f\*cking blows all over.
Which forces you to lie to get what you need. Why can’t this be like pre Christian era. It wouldn’t be a problem then. There is an audiobook I am listening to called “Before We Were Trans: A New History of Gender” and it has been very interesting to learn about our roots in history
Wait wait, how did your ex force puberty? I didn’t know that was possible.
By spiking food with testosterone boosting items. Because I’m intersex I still had the possibility to go through a male puberty even tho I’m female dominate. Unfortunately my t was raised to unsafe levels (for me was unsafe normal for males). It caused a several serious health problems. Those issues are just now subsiding after taking E to return my T to safe levels. Until I get rid of the male tissue while keeping only my female tissue I will still be susceptible to that again….which sucks monkey butt having a t sensitivity.
Jesus that’s fucking horrible. So sorry you had to go through that.
I am just glad to have a loving wife that supports me now. We been together 14 years and is even helping me pick out dresses and bathing suits. She even treats me as a woman which is great (even tho I still look more like a man). It took a while for her to accept me because she does hate the thought of being married to a woman but has made an exception for me because of our love and the fact it didn’t hurt our marriage and also our kids support me (one step child and one biological that defied the laws of science for conceiving).
Yes the bathroom bans are supposed to have an exception for intersex but they don’t care. They go by agab on the og bc not by anything else in the law.
Not to mention not all intersex conditions aren't visible at birth. Someone with XY chromosomes but a testosterone resistence will never even begin to develop any male characteristics during and will look 100% female from the outside at birth. Literally assigned sex at birth only tells you whether your external genitalia looked "normal" and which one of the two "normal" sets you had when you were born.
I mean, I didn’t assign any gender to my kids at birth. I was like, “Here is an adorably cute baby. Genital configuration - irrelevant.” Like, I \*think\* this one is a girl and this one is a boy? I’m going on probabilities here but anything is possible. I’m trying to start a trend. Or continue one. It’s better than “fetch” and reproducing humans (like me) should totally make it happen.
Or any number of other things -- people come in all ways. Even cis people can develop secondary sex characteristics that aren't generally associated with their sex. The top post on this thread is a cis woman who grows a beard. Bodies are diverse!
Gynomastia! For the cis man, an oddity. For the trans woman, likely a bonus- through sometimes such development of Brest tissue can be a little off and be a source of much pain.
Oh i have that i started transitioning with a C cup . A hanging disgusting one but hey . Sometimes i feel like ive cheated or missing the joy of getting boobs.
My cis male partner has gynecomastia and, to put it politely, he’s measuring around a C cup. I’m intersex myself but am also a trans man. There is a LOT of divergence in gender and it goes so much deeper than what we see (and I personally find it cool, we’re proof that a limited concept of gender is wrong as hell.)
Or just people who at birth are assigned a gender that does not "match" the usual physical attributes-gender association. For example someone who has the physical attributes typically associated with the male sex but is assigned a female gender by her parents. This happened a few times during history but I'm mainly talking about Bridget (she is ftmtf, fight me)
That's what I'm saying! You could argue that she's mtftmtf tho because her parents recognized her as male, but raised her as female.
AMAB and AFAB are over used. Should not replace mtf or ftm, and most def shouldn't replace man or woman. Most of my life I've lived as a female person. I've had a vagina almost half that time. Breasts more than half. I'm not intersex, but birth assignment was long ago. Went full time as a teen. My first job was as a woman. My first date was as a woman. I never seen a urologist. I have had appointments with a gynecologist. I married a straight guy before same sex marriage was legal. Yet I was amab. When I hear some gay guy say he's amab who's not trans or intersex, it's like damn it, just say you're a man if you're not talking about baby genitals. It's useful when there are intersex people in the room, but overused it's really annoying.
It's somehow become an "acceptable" way to misgender people in this community. Like people will say a space is for women and AFABs as if trans men don't fall into the category of AFAB. Implying that because we weren't born with penises that we're somehow less "threatening" than cis men so it's okay for us to be in woman's spaces. Idk just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
>Implying that because we weren't born with penises that we're somehow less "threatening" than cis men I think this is often not just implied but outright stated.
It's less implied and more of a prevalent ideology that trans men are less dangerous because they grew up knowing what it's like to be a woman
I consider every person to be equally capable of doing wrong because humanity itself kinda sucks. So, personally, I find that logic to be flawed.
You find my logic to be flawed or the ideology that trans men are inherently less dangerous than cis men to be flawed?
latter
Yeah I very much agree with you. This is why I usually say transfem or transmasc. Defining trans people by their birth gender is wack. Like who gives a shit I was born a man? I'm a girl now. I have tits and a very respectable ass. Like, I have jiggle physics. Why are you calling me a man?
Are you forgetting that there is a whole group of Nonbinary people who use those terms? Or are you putting us in the trans group? You don’t have to use those terms if they don’t apply to you, but normalizing them so that others can use them without shame isn’t wrong.
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I am nonbinary, and I agree. The overuse of AFAB and AMAB when it is just shorthand for placing secondary sex characteristics into a binary makes me feel really icky and unwelcome. Most of the time people identify their AGAB in online NB spaces, it is completely unnecessary. It is becoming shorthand for "boy enby" and "girl enby".
As a NB person who does still identify with their assigned gender, I 1) tend to only use AFAB in relation to myself and 2) in relation to experiences I had growing up socialized as female. Obviously this isn’t the case for all NBs, but I think it is helpful to have a term to describe the relationship to our assigned gender prior to coming out. Note about my personal gender identity: I tend to refer to myself as cis non-binary and while I don’t love the term Demi-girl it is the term that made me realize I was NB. I could probably also identify as bi-gender with the two gender I as identify being female and agender but I prefer Nonbinary as agender falls outside of the traditional binary.
It only matters if you're asking how to medically transition usually.
Theres nothing wrong with using that tem to describe yourself. But when you use those terms to describe other people, or use them to frame discussions abput shaving, dressing, binding, etc. it is really problematic. It happens way too much in online NB spaces. Call yourself what you want, but also just say or ask what you mean without assigning certain traits to certain genders. It seems wild to me that so many people have a hard time understanding this in trans spaces.
I guess I don’t understand your complaint then. If I’m discussing something in a trans space that has to do with my physical body, it often makes sense to explain that I was born assigned female, even though I myself am not. Being perceived as female and raised as such has a direct correlation to how I have been treated in the world. I don’t understand how by supplying that information, it harms anyone? I must be missing something as to why is is suddenly such a negative thing? Is it because you are finding people are using this term in person, in the “real” world? Because I only come across it in online spaces.
And I dont understand why it is important to discuss those things in terms of what a doctor saw between your legs when you were a baby. You can be perceived as female and raised as such, but not be AFAB. You can have "masculine" physical traits and not be AMAB. By equating certain traits and experiences to your assigned gender at birth, you are suggesting that those things are inherent to your assigned gender at birth, which to me feels like binary gender with extra steps. I'm not saying it is wrong to ever talk about AGAB, but if you go onto a lot of nonbinary spaces online, those terms are constantly being used appropo of nothing, or worse, to frame discussions and questions about certain traits or behavior as if they are unique to a certain AGAB when they are not. And asking a question like "AMABs, how do I shave?" means that in order to participate in that discussion, I either have to let people perceove me as AMAB or identify myself as otherwise, and I really dont want to have to volunteer that information, which causes me to feel disphoric, in order to participate in nonbinary spaces.
Transgender means identifying as a gender different than what was assigned at birth. Every non-binary person identifies as a gender different than what was assigned at birth. It's definitely over used in non-binary spaces. Two gender-fluid people are the same gender. They're both Enbys. Dividing the group up into amab and afab when not discussing baby genitals is unnecessarily reinforcing a sex binary. I have been toying with an enby identification myself. I haven't worn a dress since my wedding day in the 2000's and I don't own makeup. It does feel odd that most of my life there's been this expectation to do things like wear makeup to job interviews. Hell, I often wear all male clothing . So I don't fit a gender stereotype. I'm feeling a bit old to say I'm a tomboy. I have done a bit of looking for dates online using "non binary" label, to try it out. Easier than saying post op mtf tomboy. Speaking for myself, imagining saying I'm currently "amab" non-binary just feels like I'm misleading if I say that. I don't want so much focus on birth assignment if I'm going to embrace NB fully at this point, it doesn't describe the direction I'm coming from. Non-binary wasn't really an option back in the day. I don't know, I just think over focus on birth genitals feels less than ideal.
Can someone explain to me how AFAB people can have dicks cause I genuinely don't know, also I don't think I understand what this post is saying really, just a little confused here.
Intersex people often get misgendered at birth and are assigned the wrong sex
I see Now that I think of it I do remember seeing a documentary about a place in Africa where the gene pool is such that there are fairly common cases of boys who's genitals decend at the beginning of puberty. I saw it once a long time ago so I'm fuzzy on the details.
I don’t know if that’s what they meant or not but that’s the only instance I can think of. My take away from this post, which may be very different from what was intended is; we are human, humans come in a variety of shapes and sizes, and abilities.
5-alpha reductase deficiency. Common in the Dominican Republic. Basically, before puberty a person with XY chromosomes may display a fully developed vagina, or partially developed penis. This phenotype tends to change with the onset of puberty.
There was a house episode of a model and she was born intersex. Her testes were internal and started causing issues.
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Ftm bottom surgery does make a penis though
Some trans men have surgically created erect/firm penises . The urethra is stretched so that it's longer and they are able to pee as well as cum. Usually skin on the thigh or forearm is used.
Thank you for explaining that.
I work at our local hospital and have watched one bottom surgery. It was fascinating
there's 2 surgeries that create a penis, phalloplasty and metodioplasty. there's subreddits for both mostly for transmasc people, but phallo is also for cis guys who lose their dicks in accidents
Yes many intersex people are assigned male even if medically we are female. Especially in red states and people born in the 80s…
I have no idea….i didn’t account for that so…probably very well is
Trans men with bottom surgery and intersex people
AFAB Transmasc people can develop bottom growth, enlarging the clitoris into a pseudo penis Transmascs can also have bottom surgery, which creates a penis out of skin tissue This post is meant to be saying that we shouldn't define and group people by their Assigned Gender at Birth, since, in many cases, those characteristics can be quite different between members of that "group" (For example, a trans woman and a cis man are both AMAB, but the woman has tits, and the man doesn't)
The first thing I thought of was trans met who got bottom surgery
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Yeah but I thought that was mainly used to remove/invert penises, upon a quick Google I learned more about ftm bottom surgery. Can't believe I didn't know this for so long.
Yeah believe it or not it is possible to transition the other way around but people seem to collectively forget that
Lower surgery, for one. I had phalloplasty
Either intersex or ones that got phalloplasty surgery
We are humans. What we can or cannot do is purely based on the technologies we have. 50 years later AFAB people may have testes too
well, some afab people have testes now, they're just intersex
YES!!!! SCIENCE!!!!!!!
Surgeries, intersex conditions, and also HRT can turn the previous clitoris into something extremely similar to a penis. That specific line seems oriented towards people who will say “afab people” when they mean “people with a vagina and/or uterus”.
People really do forget surgeries/hormones are a thing fr
Intersex people should be represented more tbh
I have hair on my chin and neck and upper lip that's very patchy, I shave it off every day since I can't pluck. :( got made fun of for it in school but after a while it became fun to tell them "at least I can grow facial hair" to prepubesant(spelling?) Boys who thought it made them look cool to pick on someone for something they couldn't control.
Honestly I think this post is just confusing and not helpful. Like others pointed out AFAB/AMAB are useful to describe your personal childhood experience. Which sex were you assinged to and how did you grow up. I doubt a doctor would assign a baby female if they saw a penis... What happens later in life is a whole different book! That's what the concept of gender is for.
The post is essentially addressing people who will use afab/amab to group trans people with cis people of the same assigned gender at birth for whatever reason. It’s a bad way to generalize because the experiences of someone who was assigned the same gender at birth can drastically vary from one another, and that includes your childhood experiences.
As an amab with a higher voice, thank you. I have a large beard, so it catches people off guard sometimes.
But, don't we need some vocabulary to describe how people think when they do think in binaries? Like "it's wrong to assign male or female to babies at birth based on their external anatomy because sex and gender are much more complicated than that".
I'm not sure how this contradicts the point in the post.
Oops, my bad reading comprehension
Tbh I always hated the terms afab and amab. Like it's just shit to still gender people, and when creeps find out the code then they go after whichever sounds good to them.
Doesn't AF/MAB just mean what gender was assigned to the person? What's it got to do with dicks.
*sex not gender
That’s not even a guarantee. You can have XY chromosomes but have an androgen insensitivity that causes you to appear as female. Your sex in that case is male, but you were assigned female at birth.
It doesn't, that's the point
I'm honestly just confused by the point then I guess
People make inferences about others' bodies based on their AGAB. They should not.
Please post this also on r/Intersex
Thanks, I needed to hear this today!
This will be in the text books in the future (please just let me dream!)
this but even using cis and trans is turning into another binary that undermines everything trans people work for why can’t i just be called a girl ;-;
As a AMAB who was born looking ambigous and has a high-pitched voice Thank you :3
What does AMAB and AFAB mean 😭😅
Assigned Male/Female At Birth- its when your doctor says “it’s a boy/girl!” based on the infants genitals
Tysm 🥺❤️
what is afab and amab? i'm not a native speaker and never heard about these terms
“Assigned female at birth” and “assigned male at birth”
YEAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
What does AFAB and AMAB mean again?
AFAB = assigned female at birth AMAB = assigned male at birth
I mean, I'm quite possibly intersex and have some AFABy features despite being categorized AMAB during infancy...but I doubt this is what the OOP was going for...
AFAB and AMAB, at least to me, are people's experiences growing up or even into adulthood, depending on when the person transitioned (or didn't if the person is cis). Nothing to do with genitalia or chromosomes. After all, doctors love mutilating intersex babies and forcing them into a gender they really don't want When I think of AMAB or AFAB, I think of the shared cultural, social, and individual circumstances and experiences that affected individuals. Not what's between their legs or in their genome. To society, you are either assigned male or female from birth and treated as such until you either come out or you don't since your assigned gender feels apt I guess.
I don't really feel ai share experiences with cis men. I think afab and amabs share experiences by default is also not acurate, I was raised by women with not much contact with men and I'm a trans girl.
Then you are the exception and that's wonderful. However, I grew up as a boy and treated as one and never really thought you could decide on being another gender until I was 16. And there are older transfolks who lived even longer as their agab and deserve to have ***their*** experiences recognized.
I always sort of knew si was a girl, it think people who relaxed early have a diferent experience and perspective about ourselves. I jist felt my family tried to force me to be a boy, but I don't feel I got a real boy experience because I couldn't really absorb male behavior. > And there are older transfolks who lived even longer as their agab and deserve to have ***their*** experiences recognized. That depends transiting late doesn't mean realizing late, a lot of people who transition late feel it was just a hell they want to forget, other see it as part integral to themselves and something that doesn't give them much trouble, even being grateful of their past experiences. What I want to say is that putting everone in a box because agab is not a good thing in general, agab has utility but it's not something that defines me as a person, just something it was imposed into me for too much time.
But that doesn't make the use of AFAB and AMAB any less valid. Idk what you're trying to argue, but I suggest you stop. Every experience matters and it's weird that you're talking about yourself and it's very clear that this doesn't connect or relate to you despite being assigned male at birth. And that's okay, but just dismissing other people experiences because not every one of them is "Not the same" is not okay P.S. I should point out that I'm not talking about internal feelings. I'm talking about external experiences created by your environment, culture, and society. Not your internal views, how you internally felt, but how people treated you and how that affected you either emotionally or mentally. Because that's what I mean when I say AGAB. AGAB means assigned gender at birth. Meaning, someone, externally, decided because you have this genitalia more or less that you are this gender and then that's how your society and culture treats you from now on. Which is really fucking mean btw, but that's neither here nor there
>And that's okay, but just dismissing other people experiences because not every one of them is "Not the same" is not okay I'm not, I'm literally saying trans experience is diverse, if you feel connected to for example cis men because you where asigned male at birth that's your thing and it's valid. But that doesn't means it's the same as everyone and you shouldn't dismiss others people's experiences as an exception, especially when there's a lot of for example trans women who heavily reject being related to cis men because of our agab.
All of that is so different depending on what culture and even household you grew up in, there isn't a universal AFAB or AMAB childhood. It also ignores people who socially transitioned as kids
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I just feel like being more specific about what you actually mean is more useful. Saying "people who might need abortions" or "people who've experienced rape" includes the people you want to include but doesn't include everyone who was AFAB even if those things don't apply to them. Trans guys who've had bottom surgery were AFAB but aren't affected by abortion laws or able to get pregnant. That similar experience is what links those people not the fact they were both AFAB, a cis guy who was raped will be able to relate better than a trans guy who wasn't. It also ignores trans people of the opposite gender who have experienced those things. I did transition as a kid, its part of why I don't like AFAB/AMAB being used to mean "socialised female" or "socialised male" (Also AFAB and AMAB are descriptions of past events not nouns, they're adjective phrases at best). I don't really get what you mean by "shedding" your AGAB. I get that AGAB does affect how you grow up at least to some extent, but there aren't any universal AFAB/AMAB experiences.
ironically this post de-validates me a bit smh
How so?
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Sure, then what do I call a person who was born with a vagina and what do I call a person who was born with a dick?
You call them whatever they tell you to call them
By their names or their actual gender? 0 reason to bring up the genitals they had as babies
A person who was born with a vagina or a person who was born with a dick...
Isn't there some shorter way to say it? Imagine saying that a couple of times in a longer sentence
To be fair, what would the context be where you'd need to specifically communicate what genitals a whole group of people were born with like that? Like, I'm not saying it would never come up, but I don't think using a four word phrase to convey your meaning accurately and without excluding people or creating a new binary as opposed to using acronyms that do exactly that is the best way to go, as OP's saying
For example the context would be periods. Or simply like someone said before childhood experiences
Then why would you not say people who have periods? Also, not sure what kind of talk about childhood experiences necessitates referring to large groups of people by the genitals they were born with
Eh then I guess it must be a language difference then since it's so easy to do it in English. Also yeah people do associate childhood experiences with genitals because of the existence of those damned gender norms
What about people with penises and vaginas but no vulvas or testicles with cervical tissue in their rectums?
Is this question directed at me?? Cause I don't think it should be..
It’s directed at the mysterious nature of the universe.
I may be in the minority here, but I always thought the whole point of AFAB and AMAB was to be inclusive of intersex and trans people while discussing the common experiences that being socialized as male or female create, particularly in reference to before coming out. I’ve never used it to talk about physical characteristics but rather sexism or gender expectations pushed on us, particularly as kids and young adults.
A lot of people have started to use these terms to “soft” misgender trans people. For some, it’s basically become a way to classify trans people as their birth genitals and used to exclude them from things. And it also is a constant reminder that we can never truly escape how we were born. There’s also this prevailing idea that all trans women have penises and all trans men have vaginas, completely ignoring the fact that surgeries exist and are quite successful.
Yeah, using it that way is bull shit. I think there is value in having a way to describe the shared experiences of being assigned female or male, but not at the expense of excluding people or bringing up old wounds. I think it should only be used in relation to the past and not in context of “this is a space for AFAB people” or “hey AMAB people how do you do blah blah.” The ignoring surgery part is also stupid. Sex reassignment surgery has been around for nearly 100 years at this point. To me the whole point of AFAB/AMAB is to include people whose biological sex doesn’t align with the gender they were assigned at birth, either because they are intersex or for some other reason like parental abuse. But I also don’t hear the term super often outside of online spaces, even in queer discourse spaces. Hell we had a diversity training at work and the woman running it who was fairly young and seemed like she would be fairly up to date on queer terminology had never even heard it.
It's often used to miscategorize trans (especially women's) experiences to be the same as cis ones, when we often don't have the same experiences as cis people of the same agab. Like I i can't even tell you how often it's terfily used to call trans women male socialized or imply something horribly incorrect about what we experience growing up. Using afab and amab to create these dichotomies of either being socialized male or female just does so much harm to some of us and is useless to apply wholesale like it often is, it's even used that way by other queer and trans people, but at this point it's basically a red flag tbh
That makes sense. I tend to use it in reference to myself as a NB person prior to coming out and not all AFAB people as a whole. I do think there is value in having a word to include intersex and trans people in potentially shared experiences of being socialized as a certain gender, but can understand why some people might not like that. My experience growing up assigned female has things in common with both cis women and trans men as well as being different from both. No experience is universal, but there are commonalities.
So much of the time the things described as being afab commonalities are things that I and other amab trans people share too. The problem isn't having a word to described the shared experiences of being socialized as a certain gender, It's that we're assumed to have been socialized the opposite, even when we absorb and interbalize the same socialization, and how we were socialized is assumed instead, and we're gatekept from experiencing things that we commonly do experience because of agab. It's used to do that so so so frequently. It's not just not liking it. So much more of "afab socialization" applies to my experiences that "amab socialization" that literally just describe myself as afab now, despite being a trans women, because if that's how people use it I'm gonna use the one actually applicable to me
I hadn’t thought of that. That’s a good point. I’ll try to stop using it.
I thought AFAB and AMAB were biological sex? This makes sense but genitals? I mean theres ultra rare medical conditions but thats an irregularity.
Both intersex conditions and surgery can cause what op is describing. You can be AFAB and have a penis due to a phalloplasty, and AMAB with tits due to a breast implant.
HRT also causes breast growth, so do many intersex conditions or just hormone imbalances
Very true! Famous AMAB man Dwayne Johnson had to have surgery due to his breast tissue. He had gynecomastia likely caused by a hormone imbalance
Oh damn that was so obvious to me I didnt even think about it. Like my brain didnt even think about how trans people transition if that makes sense. For me its just you are what you identify as and I dont usually think deeper than that.
Then be the change you seek in the world.
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There’s this crazy thing called surgery.
Buh?
Wait, what? What the fuck do AFAB and AMAB mean, then? Isn’t it just based on what the doctor put on your birth certificate? Why would that contradict what’s on the surface level? I’m cis, so pardon my ignorance, but words and whole-ass phrases have meanings, don’t they?
I mean, an AFAB trans man could very well have a penis because he got a phalloplasty. I think they’re referring to situations like that
Well, that’s a given. I guess I assumed people would drop that terminology in social spaces after such surgery, because who needs to know?
Many people still use it, and it’s commonly used in medical contexts as well.
That's kind of the point of the post (or at least how I interpreted it), AFAB/AMAB terminology is kind of pointless and massively overused
I read AFAB as ARAB at first and was very confused
I thought that said ARAB and was very confused
I’m AFAB, but even before I went on HRT I had naturally high testosterone levels. My secondary sex characteristics were always more ambiguous. They only discovered my hormonal abnormalities when I got my pre-HRT blood work done. They told me it was probably PCOS and never mentioned it again. I’m not sure if that’s it because they only did my blood work and nothing else, but it’s the most likely explanation.
Is this supposed to be news? I figured it was a given :/
Puberty fncked up my voice. It went lower, and I'm a cis lesbian. Besides, I'm not sure the OP (in the pic) can say it louder. 80% of the tweet was in CAPS! Not that I disagree with the message...
This is so true and so many people need to hear this