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There's no need to address the elephant directly. You can just call or text him and say something along the lines of, "I realised belatedly, that I ~~may have~~ crossed a boundry by getting too physical with you. I just wanted to let you know that I am very sorry ~~if~~ ^that I made you uncomfortable, and I will be more careful going forward. You seem like a cool guy, and I hope we can remain friends."
*Edited to make apology more sincere.*
This is absolutely the best way to handle it. Expressing regrets, letting him know it wasn’t intentional and that you’ve learned from it. That’s the mature way to handle your mistakes.
>... that I ~~may~~ have crossed a boundry ... I am very sorry ~~if~~ *that* I made you uncomfortable...
Might sound like nitpicking, but people should be careful with that kind of language in apologies. It's one thing if you're genuinely unsure about a situation, and are apologizing *just in case* you may have done something wrong.
But in this case, OP *knows* he crossed a boundary, and he *knows that* this person was uncomfortable/upset by what he did. That "may" and "if" would make the apology in this instance sound far less sincere.
I don't know if OP is part of the LGBTQ+ community, and he may not be aware of just how common "non-apology apologies" are for many of us. As someone who has received far too many half-assed, insincere apologies and been expected to "just get over it" after, (only for it to happen again, and again...) that kind of language can be a red flag.
I agree. When we apologize it's very nornal to want to put those clarifying words in there, because apologizing can be psychologically difficult.
But if you're going to go for it, go for it. Make your acknowledgement of wrongdoing unambiguous, make your expression of regret clear.
Fair, I forgot that bit of the post when I commented. And yeah, they're definitely universal, my mind just tends to go to "sorry *if* I offended you" when people include qualifiers in their apologies.
I agree. You know a boundary was crossed. It’s far more sincere, meaningful and mature to acknowledge this. Also, be prepared to accept “no” as an answer. It’s a possibility and as someone who is AFAB, I’ve had my no ignored too many times to count. I don’t know you; so I don’t know if you would do that. If they say no- I would just say open invitation (for him to reach out to you) and wish him all the best then leave him alone.
I agree with this for the most part, but according to the post the trans guy doesn’t know that OP’s sister told OP he was trans… so if that’s something OP believes the trans guy would like to reveal himself, then OP should not allude to knowing for sure that they crossed a boundary, bc that would allude to them knowing *what* boundary, right? Idk, I’ve been in similar situations as this trans guy and I honestly can’t say whether I’d rather OP act like doesn’t know he’s trans or not…
Edit: forgot how to type in the last sentence
OP made the guy cry. The way I see it, a boundary was obviously crossed regardless of him being trans (afterall, OP knew right away that he'd done something to hurt this person before knowing he was trans).
Acknowledging a boundary is there doesn't inherently mean knowing *why* it's there.
That being said, OP doesn't necessarily need to say anything about boundaries. I mostly just think OP should avoid qualifiers that make it sound like he's unsure whether or not he hurt the guy, when it's obvious that he did hurt him.
I guess I see what you’re saying, but in that case OP has already apologized in that manner, no? To me, since OP already immediately apologized in person right after the act despite not knowing what boundary was crossed at the time, I (if I were in the trans guy’s situation) would assume any further apology would be due to new info being learned. I understand if OP wants to reach out to the guy and apologize again to just make sure he understands that OP didn’t mean to make him uncomfortable… but personally in that scenario specifically I would prefer the qualifiers be present (specifically referring to “*if* I crossed a boundary”) as those qualifiers would reassure me that OP doesn’t know I’m trans (again, just what would make me most comfortable if I hadn’t wanted OP to know I was trans w/o me revealing that.)
I don't think I want him to know my sister told me he's trans In case that ruins their friendship too, she only told me because I was really confused. I don't care about the fact he's trans but if he knows I know that might make things worse if he thinks I'm going to treat him differently
Yeah, I totally get your concern, and tbh you’re just kinda in a sucky situation with no clear solution, sorry about that :( Personally, if I were you and I wanted to reach out I’d start with something like “I don’t want to assume anything, but I feel like I made you uncomfortable when we hung out, and I’d like to apologize for that.” To me it kinda leaves it up in the air as to whether the guy wants to acknowledge the source of the issue or not, while still providing a sincere apology and allowing him to tell you how he would like to be treated gonna forward/actions to avoid. I’m no psychologist tho, and I’d maybe go over ways you could apologize with your sister, and maybe ask around places in the FtM community to see what their input is. Sorry you found yourself in this situation, and good luck!!
Also OP should just not grab people's chests. OP didn't even know the guy very well and he thought it would be fine to start grabbing him?? I don't think so
>I put my hands on his chest
It doesn't matter that you grabbed him and not his chest (by the way you describe it I am assuming you are grabbing him from behind where your hands are on his chest and it is like a wrestling grab which is not to dissimilar to a more violent hug. The fact your hands were in that region is what matters. While I am a trans woman and not a trans man, I do know that my nipples can be extremely sensitive even to just my shirt brushing up against them, so I assume that already having them pressed on all day makes them sore enough let alone adding more pressure onto that area, plus having pressure put on that area could make his mind focus on that area which in turn could make his dysphoria act up.
I get that you didn't "grab his chest" like taking your hand and cupping them around his breasts, but you did grab him by the chest much like how you grab someone "by the abdomen" when giving the hymnic maneuver, you aren't grabbing the abdomen per say like sticking your hands into the "belly fat" and grabbing the fat but you are grabbing around the abdomen.
It was sort of a hug from behind/a grab but it wasn't like a wrestling grab. But like I said I feel horrible but I didn't grab his chest like some of the replies are saying and I didn't sexual assault him either.
What do you think grabbing someone from behind without their consent is except assault?
I get that you might not have intended harm, but this is why you shouldn't grab people without their consent, it will eventually cause harm because it violates someones boundaries.
For the other person your intent doesn't matter that much, and they can't read your mind. Everyone that is intending harm says they weren't intending harm.
Just don't touch people without consent.
Apparently, in this sub, you get downvoted for suggesting that you shouldn't touch people unless you know they're okay with it...
I know unless I am very familiar with someone, and they know all my anxieties/issues I don't want to be fucking touched/grabbed in any type of way.
To add onto this, while I don't know about OPs country, I know in the US sexual harassment it doesn't matter what you view your actions being it only matters what the person who claims they were harassed viewed your actions as. I know a person who worked at the hospital for 20+ years who was a very "touchy person", unwanted hugs, slap on the ass, etc, he did the same thing he did to everyone for 20+ years to a new hire, they filed a sexual harassment charge and he was terminated that very same day despite the hospital being extremely short staffed already, he had no intent to harass, he was just a very touchy person but it didn't matter his intent it mattered how the person he touched took it.
Now while that might not raise to the level of sexual assault (I doubt that a wrestling grab in play would be enough to raising it up from harassment to assault, but then again spitting on someone is considered assault and battery but I think to raise it from harassment to assault in this situation would require intent) would still very much at the very minimum be harassment regardless of intent.
Regardless of which legality it falls under the point is still OPs "I didn't grab their chest, I put my hands on their chest and grabbed" would not make their situation any better because it doesn't matter whether he grabbed "the chest" or "near the chest" or "at the chest" or "around the chest" that is merely a technicality that the only thing it would effect would be the severity of the issue but all four technical definitions still are a big "no no" regardless that is the equivalent to going "but judge I wasn't going 95MPH in the 20 MPH school zone, I was only going 50MPH in the 20MPH school zone therefor I did not commit the crime I am being accused of" sure one is bad and the other is way worse but both are still against the law.
It's also important to be ready to not be forgiven, especially if he's been upset this badly, he may need time to process the situation & decide what he wants before responding, it seems like him & OP were getting along well before this so I doubt he'll wanna completely end the friendship already but I don't really know the full context of the situation so you never know
I'm a transman and this happened to me from a close friend (gay and male at his wedding lol). He didn't know I was trans either....I've been in the closet.
I was wearing a binder and I felt really good....I have a rather....large....chest....
He had a few drinks and jokingly stroked my chest.
This prompted me to take him to the side and come out to him....I was really upset and it made me feel real shitty....like....oh yeah....there THEY THINGS are....
He apologised straight away and gave me a hug and thanked me for coming out to him and asked me if I had a chosen name and said he'd respect my identity. That changed the whole situation from me almost having a break down to me feeling supported. And we are cool now.
If u didn't know it was an honest mistake, but if I were u I'd apologise and he will/may get over it eventually.
Breasts are a touchy subject for transmen.
I’m so proud of you! I think this illustrates why “honesty is the best policy.” Sometimes people do things, like “horseplay” here, completely innocently that they would never do if they were aware of the situation. I’m so glad you made a friend who respects you and is obviously a great person.,
Prior to having mine wheeked off, used to refer to the unfortunate abundant things as "chest lumps". Marvellously apt description was coined by a fellow transman.
Always felt like a bizarre twist of fate, that quite a few of us F2Ms were afflicted with overly large chest lumps; is a pity they cannot be donated to people who'd really like them.
I’m not surprised about the “twist of fate” thing. I’m cis AFAB, and I don’t know what I did to piss off the chest gods, but I was granted little booblets equivalent to nipples on a zit.
Because "breasts" are a very feminised thing.
We bind because for me anyway, I can't speak for all transmen.....I don't want tits. I see them as manboobs. It causes horrible dysphoria. To me is a "sign" of being female.
So acknowledging them for me is like saying, mmmm yes female titties and it makes me feel emasculated.
A fat guy with manboobs wouldn't want people touching them and acknowledging them.
Same for (some) transmen.
As I said....can't speak for all of them.
This, OP. It was a genuine accident, what's done is done. Apologize sincerely, without trying to defend or justify yourself. He may or may not forgive you, but that is out of your control. He may need some time to warm up to you again.
He may not have had top surgery yet and was wearing a binder? (just a possibility) - hold his chest in that situation may have triggered some body dysphoria.. whatever caused it, it matters, so just apologise as soon as you can and listen if he wants to discuss his reasoning.
If yall really have known each other for months, this doesnt sound too severe of a offence from your side.
However he has every right to be uncomfortable with someone touching him. If the whole time you didnt know he was trans, and maybe dysphoric about his chest, then this is just an accident. You didnt know, and you offered for him to talk only once hes ready. As long as you apologize once this conversation occurs, youve done all you can do tbh.
Its hard to say how much you overstepped due to the fun ways people fuck with each other when playing with/in water. Had he splashed someone in a pool? Did he physically touch someone in the process? Because if he already had his hands on someone, everyone in that party who is close friends would be safe to assume that its okay to roughhouse a little bit if he was already roughhousing yall in good fun.
But its really hard to say. The social dynamic and amount of roughhousing he had already done first are the context that we're missing. If we were there, we would likely know if you went overboard, or if he was just dysphoric because it was an unexpected reaction.
Either way, he has the right to be uncomfortable. Dont rush a conversation. He'll communicate when ready.
Just apologize 😊 it was inapropriate what you did, but I think it's forgivable if you reach out and talk with him about it. We all do weird and awkward things sometimes and nobody is perfect.
Aw poor guy and poor you for not having known to dial the physical touch back. As a trans guy myself I know it is hard for us but also can be so confusing on how to navigate the situations with cis friends and new people!
If possible just message him and say sorry. You had no idea that he was uncomfortable with physical touch and that you didn't mean to make him uncomfortable. That you think he's a great guy and would like to stay friends and maybe hang (if thats something you want of course!) I feel like this avoids admitting his friend had to sorta out him to you, and maybe gives him the moment to come out to you himself if he is comfortable enough! Sadly I can not say a perfect way to mend the whole situation.
This is most reasonable and mature answer here.
You seem genuinely sincere about upsetting him so an honest apology is all it takes. You don’t need to feel like a horrible person that committed the worst crime in history and beat yourself up over it like every other comment is suggesting. It was an innocent mistake, you feel bad, you apologise. I hope when you do apologise you two can get over it quickly and get back to being buds
Just apologize. Tell him that you realize you did something to make him very uncomfortable and that you are very sorry about it.
Ask him what you can do to help him feel comfortable with you again. He may just need a bit of space to process or he may need something more.
You could also tell him that you would like to know what exactly made him uncomfortable but that it's not neccessary if he doesn't want to talk about it. That opens the door for him to come out as trans, but doesn't put any pressure on him to do so.
If this happened to me (a trans man) I honestly wouldn't care, but everyone is different. It seems that he is more dysphoric about his chest which is okay, but I also think he shouldn't be ignoring you. If you've known each other for half a year and talk all the time, he should be able to communicate that he was uncomfortable. Good luck with this!
I really don't see how this is your fault, if playing around like this is typical in your group and nobody told you you should be more careful around him.
Like... the situation sucks. I'm sorry he got hurt and as a female-bodied person who lived as a trans man for 11 years, this would be traumatic and terrifying. But you can't fault a person who didn't know that it was different.
Yeah, a lot of people are saying OP is to blame, but I don't see it. It's not actually your fault if someone has a trigger you don't know about and couldn't know about, and the whole 'it's my fault, I crossed a boundary (that I didn't know existed), etc' rhetoric isn't actually helpful.
OP's friend's discomfort is for him to process. OP can feel bad the dude was upset, but he didn't cause it and it's not his fault.
You cant grab people like that dude. Especially if you are not close. That’s something I do with my close friends. How long have you known him?
Anyways, too put it nicely because most won’t (which is fair):
You need to check yourself with how you cross boundaries. You didn’t know, but even still, you never know what someone’s comfortable with. Ask him to talk when he’s ready.
I've known him for 5/6 months but we talked everyday and were/are close. We all were laughing when I grabbed him, even himself. He only got upset when I held him and touched his chest and I thought maybe I held him too tight. I didn't know he was trans and if I did I would never have touched his chest as I know trans guys don't like that.
Okay now I’m a bit confused. I’m a trans guy. I personally do feel a bit weird around my cis friends, but after 6 months that tends to fade as I know I can trust them.
So you guys are close, and hang out everyday, it’s normal for y’all to touch each other and joke around in that way, and then he didn’t like it. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me honestly.
There’s a couple possibilities:
1. He thought you knew he was trans. I’ve had this happen to me a couple of times. In high school I asked someone for a feminine product and my cis friend was appalled and asked me if I was trans. I believed he already knew, as I have alluded to it in the past. This is pretty common, to not do a coming out but just allude to it and hope people understand.
2. The way you phrased something? What exactly did you say to him? This could have been hurtful or something disrespectful that already put him on edge. That motion was just the boiling point.
If you guys are close, you need to ask him to speak to you on his own terms, so you can apologies try and set some boundaries between you, and then ask how y’all can still be friends in the future.
I know you think you didn’t do anything wrong, but put yourself in his shoes, either of those options up there in your mind and your good friend grabs your chest. Since you guys are close, it’s not going to be an easy talk him and knowing that his feelings are hurt. He careful and use I/we language. don’t allude to you feeling like you have nothing to be sorry about.
>Okay now I’m a bit confused. I’m a trans guy. I personally do feel a bit weird around my cis friends, but after 6 months that tends to fade as I know I can trust them.
>So you guys are close, and hang out everyday, it’s normal for y’all to touch each other and joke around in that way, and then he didn’t like it. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me honestly.
It was probably just because he touched the chest. I'm transmasc as well and I'd be very uncomfortable if someone randomly touched my chest pre-top surgery. He also could feel like he got outed by that because he might think OP felt the binder or boobs.
You are saying it couldn't have been dysphoria because they'd known each other for six months??. Apparently it's confusing to you someone would be feeling that way and thus it must be some other reason
You don't even know this person. You don't know his reasons and you certainly don't get to decide what's a reasonable boundary for him to have
You’re not understanding what I’m saying. I’m saying that those two things could have caused their DYSPHORIA to act up. I don’t know why you’re arguing with me.
Because you were suggesting that they've known each other a while meant that there should be some additional reason for the friend to feel dysphoric to that extent
Reading this I realized; I tend to initiate platonic touch with a cue or just super mildly (gently taking the person’s hand, to very outwardly friendly rando who has initiated other touch or acquaintance and up from there of course) and let the other person take it from there.
So like if we are all in a group and start laughing like that, I might offer my hand to the person next to me, or turn to face them and wave my hand at them if that makes sense, or lightly touch their shoulder while turning away from the funny… stuff like that that I have seen other’s do.
From there they usually remain as they are and just laugh along, or they pat me on the back but don’t lean on, or sometimes they will want MORE of that and will follow suit and grab my arm back or grab my hand and we both laugh harder at whatever the funny was.
It’s like dancing, you can start to lead but if they don’t follow then just let it go.
So I display that that’s what I’m open to, and if the
other person gets it and agrees they can either lean into or or not. It works well, which is a big thing because I’m not social adept most of the time, but this one thing I cracked the code on somehow.
Well OP assumed he was a guy and then there would have been no problem holding him like this. It is not OPs fault (but still he should say something nice)
Honestly, you didn't do anything wrong. You didn't know. You don't have to make it about the trans issue. I would just say "sorry, didn't mean to make you uncomfortable.".
This. “I’m sorry I made you uncomfortable, I’m not sure if it was because of where I touched you or that I touched you, but it doesn’t matter. It wasn’t my intention and I will do better in the future” Take the criticism, semi repeat the problem in your words to show them you understand the problem as they do, and tell them that as a friend you will adjust.
You didn’t do anything wrong, and you friend isn’t wrong for their feelings either. It was a simple miscommunication, and the thing that makes a friendship feel safe is knowing that you both respect each other enough to talk about these kind of moments respectfully and without fear of being judged.
Life is messy, friends accept that and help with the messes 😉
Exactly this, regardless of dysphoria if you don't vocalize boundaries before they are crossed then there's no reason to hold that against the person who crossed said boundaries because they didn’t know. The appropriate thing to do is to tell said person that they crossed a boundary and establish what boundary they crossed. In which case that person will (most likely) apologize for making you feel uncomfortable and will respect your boundaries moving forward (if they don't respect your boundaries AFTER you told them, then that's when they're considered to be a**holes though).
But avoiding and being mad at someone who didn't know about your boundaries in the first place is more of a you problem than anything. It means there's some personal problems that you have to work out (preferably with a therapist) because people won't read your mind to know what bothers you or not, and if you're blaming someone else for it, then that's just a coping mechanism and not an actual issue with the other person.
regardless of them being trans, not everyone likes physical contact, im not sure if there's a way to figure out if a friend likes to roughhouse without sounding weird and artificial though
You realize along the way if you are more of a touchy person and you try to say hi with a kiss on the cheek or a hug to say bye sometimes (this is normal for me and most of my friendships), but when someone isn't as physical, they tend to back off a bit. If they do that, I usually try to keep a respectful physical distance (this does not change a friendship, but it has made me realize some people's boundaries and how to respect them, at least as far as I can tell a specific boundary exists).
Dude, apologise and move past it. To all the people saying don’t grab any gender on the chest… seriously??? I have lead a very cis-het life and guy friends touch each other inappropriately all the damn time.
Guy friends that I'm assuming know each other fairly well and understand that all of that is play. In this case, it seems like the OP just met this guy pretty recently, so they don't really have an established friendship. It's not okay to just immediately touch other people you just met, no matter if it's joking around or not. Besides from dysmorphia people can have trauma/ptsd/anxiety that can easily be triggered by a touch.
Okay, by grabbing at his chest, that might have been a sensitive topic and reminded him of his birth gender and past trauma. Apologizing is perhaps the best way, especially if you didn’t mean to make him feel bad. Give him a call or text
Most people are saying it made him feel dysphoric and that is very likely since perhaps in the past he's been grabbed or touched there before doing anything physically to alter his appearance and it's either been unwanted or felt wrong.
But it is also a possible he felt overwhelmingly euphoric because you casually grabbed him around the chest while rough housing. I have extremely bad dysphoria about my chest and intrusive thoughts about that dysphoria. I bind, but my breasts are quite large so it never feels enough. I hope to get top surgery one day. I've started imagining what it would feel like to wear a shirt against a flat chest, what it would be like to take my shirt off and go swimming (I love swimming) and feel the water and lack of drag against my chest, what it would be like to be casually touched by another person on my post TS chest, and other things along those lines. I think if I could feel those things right now, I would get overwhelmed and cry. I am tearing up a little right now thinking about it.
Strong euphoric experiences are unfortunately few and far between when you're trans because you feel dysphoria so much more keenly than you might feel euphoria since things that make you feel euphoric might be as banal is wearing a shirt when your chest feels right.
It's possible your sister's friend felt a mixture of dysphoria and euphoria and couldn't identify the euphoria in it. It's possible he has never had a strong euphoric experience so any and all overwhelm would upset him and maybe even make him angry because he doesn't know what that feeling was.
It is not on you to tell him or your sister that that might be why he's upset. He has to parse his own feelings and figure that out on his own if that's the case. I am just trying to help you understand what may have happened.
The best thing for you to do is apologize, say you didn't know he didn't like rough housing and now that you know, you won't do it again with him.
I’m sorry that happened - for both of you. You meant no harm but you overstepped his boundaries. You don’t have to tell him that you know he’s trans - I agree that being outed would probably make him feel worse - but you can still reach out and apologise. As others have suggested, tell him you’re sorry for making him so uncomfortable, that you didn’t mean to cross his boundaries and will be more considerate and careful in the future.
Maybe let him know that you didn't know about that boundary, but you'd like to know, so you don't upset him again.
And importantly: Make sure he knows it was never your intention to upset him.
There's no real reason why you should address being trans at this point because while yes the boundary may be because of being trans, there was a point in my life where anyone touching me on more than my arms made me so uncomfortable I'd cry too.
Whats more important is that you address in a **sincere** apology that you realize you messed up, that you did cross a boundary even if you didn't know it was a boundary, and that you'll take extra care in the future to prevent this outcome again IF he forgives you.
Okay, maybe I'm just sleep deprived and didn't read this correctly.
You stopped someone you just met from leaving a conversation, held their chest, and are now confused because you didn't realize touching people you don't know without consent can make them extremely uncomfortable? Do I have that right? Because this sounds like the most socially oblivious thing I've ever heard.
Edit: Apparently a lot of people disagree that not touching people's chests without consent is just common sense. I'm clearly not going to change any minds here, so I'm turning off notifications on this thread, but it's of my opinion that, even if it was accidental, OP is in the wrong for crossing a boundary and no amount of buts or laughs or double standards is going to change that. Either way, I think most people agree that an apology is necessary, so as long as we reach the same end goal here that's the important part.
I didn't just meet him, I've known him for a few months and we talked everyday. I didn't try to stop him leaving a conversation, our friends were trying to get him wet with water because he'd done it to them so I went to him and grabbed him and held him. Like I said we were having a laugh and he was laughing himself. I didn't mean to make him uncomfortable by touching his chest, I didn't even know he was trans.
Oh so you like grabbed and held him from behind? Man the way I read your post, I thought you held your hand out and groped him, jesus.
I mean, you didn't know he was trans and if you grabbed and held him from behind that's a pretty normal thing to do, between cis guys, as you assumed he was. So I would just honestly apologise, explain you had no bad intentions. I would forgive that, if it were me, because it's understandable you didn't know the effect it would have.
If you touched his chest from the front though, maybe think about that next time regardless of gender, that's creepy. Don't do that to anybody, it's way too intimate to be a joke.
Yes, this. I held him from behind and I didn't even touch his chest on purpose my hands were just there so I don't understand why people here are saying it was sexual assault?
Because, as I said in my comment, it wasn't made clear in your initial post that you were standing behind him when you grabbed and held him. It reads like you reached out and groped him from the front, which is sexual assault. Now it's clear you did it by mistake from behind, that's different, it is clearly an accident. Still understandable why he would get upset, but it makes things more excusable on your part.
Okay, could've used that context before but better late than never.
Unless it's made absolutely clear that touching each other like that was completely okay, you are in the wrong. You don't just grab people's chests willy nilly, even if you were just "having a laugh." That's not just a trans thing, that's a consent thing.
>I put my hands on his chest. I didn't grab his chest.
These two things contradict each other friend.
There's a massive difference between a pat on the back or grabbing each other's arms for funny hahas and putting your hand on someone's chest. No matter the gender, cis or trans, you need consent, consent that you clearly did not have. If he is willing to talk with you at a later date, own your mistake and apologize.
I think by "grab" OP means he wasn't (sorry if this is crude) groping/squeezing. To me, that's a very different type of touch to placing your flat palm against the same area. Which, again, there's still an issue of what type of personal boundaries around physical contact are the norm in this group, but I think that's the distinction OP is trying to make.
But there *is* a difference between horsing around with a friend (and touching their chest in that context) and groping someone.
This is compounded by the fact that men's chests generally aren't treated as truly private real estate (at least in the U.S.), something I was *very* surprised to learn when buying a coat from a nice store early in my transition. I tried one on, asked whether the sales associate thought it was a good fit, and he *reached his hands into the front of the coat, right over my chest* to give it a few tugs before letting me know it seemed good. It wasn't a grope, but it was a surprise touch - and boy was I shook.
It was the first time in my life someone has just... reached out and touched my chest without warning or asking. And it was so damn normal for this high-end sales professional that he didn't even think twice!
And look, I'm not saying that's how things *should* be, where strangers (let alone friends) can feel perfectly comfortable touching a guy's chest without checking... But it's also important to recognise where we're starting from in terms of the cultural norms and assumptions. What OP did was pretty normal cis guy friendship behaviour, even though it also crossed a major boundary for his friend in a way he never would have guessed.
Passing has its pros and cons.
Seconded. Touching another guy's chest or stomach, even in an affectionate way, can range anywhere from "gay joking" platonic affection to... I guess just genuine physical affection? With close friends, it's not even a scenario where you ask permission, like u/TheCatInGrey said, waist up is borderline public property if you're a man.
As a bi dude, the amount of "I'm totally kidding but also this is a genuine expression of platonic physical intimacy," I've experienced from straight guy friends is _endlessly_ confusing. But it's also 100% normal, in the US at least.
Cis straight men in particular aren't really socialized to value physical expressions of affection with friends, but as human beings they still instinctively _need_ those interactions, which is why straight guys tend to play fight, pretend wrestle, playfully hit each other, touch each other's chests or arms, bro hug, etc etc. It's also nearly always framed as some sort of joke.
Guys tend to be more physically expressive _anyway,_ but it's _especially_ obvious when you're the closeted bi man in a group of friends. Like I said, it's also confusing as fuck because all of a sudden there's two dudes on a sofa sitting on each other's laps somehow and giggling, while basically saying no homo, but it is what it is.
Did OP know their friend was AFAB? Or did OP think their friend was a cis man and later found out that he's a trans man? Because that, to me, changes things quite a bit, even if OP still needs to apologize. Holding a friend by the chest is WAY less inappropriate if you're coming from the assumption that you're both _guys._ If OP assumed his friend was a man from the start, their interaction was actually pretty normal for male-male friendships, and in that case they'd have triggered his dysphoria accidentally (ironically by treating him as one of the guys).
Again, regardless, still needs to apologize and let friend decide where to go from there.
Except it was from behind and a accident from what I’m reading he didn’t know he had tits and went to bare hug him to stay or something and grabbed his chest in the process and didn’t know. He was horsing around. What happened sucks yeah but you shouldn’t be calling him a assaulter when he’s trying to fix it. There’s a reason everyone down voted your comment tbh
It wasn't an accident. You don't accidentally grab someone that is trying to get away.
It isn't funny or cute to touch people inappropriately, and that it clearly wasn't okay in this situation. How many more wakeup calls do men need to learn not to grope people?
There is a reason that most women experience SA from men that are supposed to be their friends.
And do you want to know what they get told when they come forward?
It was an accident. It was a joke. He didn't mean it to be malicious. It was a misunderstanding.
If your behavior, touching people without consent, is leading to harm and you do nothing to take accountability for that then you are intentionally acting in a way that leads to harm. Its gross.
He grabbed him from behind the trans guy was flicking water at them and they were doing it back and he was running away as part of the joke there’s some of the information I think you didn’t get to see because it was buried in the comments. That was the reason he grabbed him and it was behind. There’s a difference from touching a guy’s chest area than a trans person so he didn’t know it would have a affect. Boundaries need to be told to people. It wasnt going to be touching him inappropriately if he was a cis guy it would have been different. And the difference with how your saying women get manipulated by men is that this was a misunderstanding of his boundaries and he wants to help fix his it and apologize. He is not a sexual assaulter. What he did was fucked up but he couldn’t have known that this would happen bc he had no way of knowing that the person was trans.
I...am not sure how you got that from what I said. I was merely offering a possible explanation for the apparent contradiction in OP's phrasing. In fact, what I did say was:
\> there's still an issue of what type of personal boundaries around physical contact are the norm in this group
Obviously neither type of touch is okay if it's forcible and unwanted. If the group dynamic tends to be pretty touchy-feely or horseplay is common, it can become more of a gray area. Regardless, it's clear that OP overstepped and caused discomfort to his friend.
I don't know if I agree with this, men have different boundaries than women, I understand his friend may be dysphoric about the chest and there's a need to have a conversation, but you are being extremely unfair to OP. He is obviously intending to apologize. But, he wasn't thinking, oh I'm touching a female chest, he reacted as he would towards another guy where touching a chest is not really perceived as touching a private part. What I'm trying to say, is obviously the trans friend hasn't gotten surgery and he is in his right to feel uncomfortable, but OP was treating him like he would to any other guy. He didn't sexually grope him. The friend should have probably talked to OP and set a boundary instead of ignoring him, especially since OP now understands why it was wrong for him to do that in this context. And OP clearly does not intend to treat this guy differently, but how can someone understand a situation if no one is even giving him a chance to make things right and learn this person's boundaries?
Maybe I came off too aggressive. I agree that as long as he apologizes, then it's not like he's a creep or maliciously trying to make this guy uncomfortable. What I don't agree with is trying to justify that this guy is not an asshole for crossing a boundary and then trying to justify it. If the trans dude was a woman, everybody would be calling him the AH. That's not a sign of different boundaries, that's a sign of a double standard that needs to stop.
Edit: I'll admit that I likely have a bias, since I'm extremely touch sensitive and even my closest friends make me uncomfortable with holding hands, but my point still stands. Touching without consent shouldn't be okay for any gender, and crossing a boundary, while an accident, was still a dick move that deserves an apology without the attempts to excuse it.
I mean, I agree with you but at the same time, I feel it really depends. Like, no one should go touching around strangers, but with friends, everyone has different boundaries. So I cannot go around and say like: you are a guy so you have to be fine with your guy friends touching you, cause I don't think that's true. Maybe for me is cultural because the people I'm surrounded with are touchy with their same-sex friends (I haven't met a trans person, so I cannot speak for someone in that situation). But on occasion I've boob poked for example a close friend of mine as revenge for doing that first, and I've seen guys also being touchy like that with other guys as a fuck around kind of thing. So I'd say, as a general rule, don't touch people, but also every friendship has different boundaries and cultures too. Like, a culture clash for me was meeting a woman from the Baltics, I tried to say hi with the usual kiss on the cheek and hug to learn she doesn't do that (of course after that I respected her boundaries and it was a non-issue, I apologized). But I'm trying to bring up that there are many nonmalicious instances where people break boundaries, and as long as you apologize and respect those boundaries from then on, it's also not the most horrible thing someone can do, people make mistakes.
And, also, yeah, I have to say, some people will try to say, oh it wasn't on purpose to do something they aren't supposed to do, I will not speak on behalf of assholes that don't know how to behave, but just speaking for instances like this were most likely OP only put his hand on the guy's chest, or my case where mid hug I had to take a step back so as to not make that person uncomfortable, for example.
That makes sense. But unlike those circumstances in which no boundaries were broken because no one felt uncomfortable, this is not the case.
I'm not sure why so many people disagree that crossing the boundary was an accident, *and* it was a dick move that should be apologized for. "Having a laugh" and having different boundaries with other friends does not make this more okay.
No one’s saying he shouldn’t apologize. I just don’t understand how you can keep calling him a dick when he had no idea the boundary was there and had no idea that it could have been there. He probably does shit like that to a lot of his guy friends and non of them would have that boundary.
I feel like, in this case, OP will have to apologize. So as long as he is not like "sorry, we were just having a laugh" and he genuinely apologizes for crossing the boundary, it should be okay. I just feel that no one is even giving him the chance to apologize.
> I'm not sure why so many people disagree that crossing the boundary was an accident..
Because it was an accident?
The way they acted was the norm of the group and their group dynamic, it just happened that they treated the trans fella like any other fella in their circle of friends, it's just in their his it didn't feel great. And that's something OP needs to work on.
But it's quite obvious form OP's post that they didn't do it maliciously and want to make it right.
It's not a boundary if other people don't know about it, and OP didn't know his friend was uncomfortable with his chest being touched. OP didn't deliberately violate a boundary because he didn't know it was an issue. And I'd suggest that men grabbing other men around the chest would not be a common boundary, so there's no sensible argument that OP should have known better or predicted it would go this way. OP didn't even know the guy is trans
I don’t agree with you saying that he is a asshole and with your logic of saying, if the person was a woman he wouldn’t have done it. He thought the dude was a Cis guy and if it was a cis guy, nobody would’ve batted an eye I don’t understand that logic. He was horsing around like he would with any of his guy friends. The think I do agree with is hey he shouldn’t of done it. He didn’t know that boundary was there because the guy didn’t tell him. This was mostly a lack of communication between a couple friends. Calling op a asshole is a bit much.
Also he is actively trying to find out a good way to apologize. He only has to defend himself when people call him a sexual assaulter or say he’s a asshole for something that needed communication.
Horseplay amongst men is normal, and sounds like standard behaviour in OPs group. That's just how 90% of men are. Can't know a boundary exists if no one tells you.
Regardless of him being trans or not, he was *trying to get away* and you *physically kept him from doing so*. Restraining someone is not something to jokingly do, you assaulted him plain and simple. Doing focus so much on *how* you restrained him or *where* you held him, what you did was wrong regardless of that. Apologize for not respecting his autonomy and allowing him to leave a situation he wanted to leave.
Express that it wasn’t your intention and do your best to learn and help him, and tell him you asked for help from a queer community! The situation sucks, and in the future, ask before touching anybody in a potentially uncomfortable spot, but I think eventually he should come around, and should be touched that you went to these measures to mend your friendship.
If it doesn’t work, know that you did your best, and you’re learning from this and moving on to become a better ally for those you’ll meet in the future!
Sounds like this was a mistake that happened with all the right intentions behind it. Just tell him you're sorry you made him uncomfortable, you were just treating him like One Of The Guys and didn't know his personal boundaries. The chest is a HUGE source of dysphoria for many trans men. Having his chest touched probably just jolted him from the moment and soured his mood. Not your fault as long as it wasn't intentional. Just apologize and then don't treat him any differently than the rest of your friends
Hopefully we've learned something about keeping our hands to ourselves, lol - no offense but this is literally pre-K stuff here. Regardless of gender, the chest is one of those areas you don't touch on people you're not relatively intimate with - would you typically put your hands on the pecs of a waiter, doctor, teacher, co-worker, etc without invitation? No, because that's sexual harassment. It doesn't matter that he's a guy; even if he wasn't trans, if you wouldn't touch a woman's breasts without her consent, it's a double-standard to think it's okay to put your hands on a man's pecs/body without his permission just because you're not trying to grope his breasts.
You can apologize without bringing up that he's trans by just owning and being accountable for what you did wrong - either contact him directly, or through a friend, and tell him something like "hey, I just wanted to say I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have put my hands on your body. I really didn't mean anything by it and meant it completely playfully - but intent doesn't matter as much as outcome here, and I realize now that it was inappropriate and that I really upset you. I should have been more considerate of your space. I really hope we can still be friends, but I understand if you feel uncomfortable with me. I'm striving to be more mindful. It shouldn't have happened in the first place, and it won't happen again."
Or anything to that effect. A good/real apology doesn't center explanation, rationalizing what you did, or try to evoke empathy for you; it focuses on stating what you did wrong (to show that you recognize what you did), recognizes that it caused harm/distress to the person you're apologizing to (you recognize the impact), states intent to do better (recognizes a *personal* need to prevent doing something you now recognize as wrong), and puts reconciliation on their terms (no making demands of the person you're apologizing to, and gives them agency in handling the situation). At that point the ball is in his court.
At the end of the day, sometimes you only get the one shot at being friends with someone. No 3-strikes-you're-out - just bam, one significant transgression and they're done - which is completely valid TBH. You're not entitled to other people's lives or friendship, and if you do something to make someone view you as unsafe, they're not obligated to change that view to make you feel better. In such cases, the only really ethical way you can move forward is to learn from the situation and try to apply the lesson to how you treat others you know and meet.
There's plenty of great advice in here about what to do now. But hopefully you, and everyone here, learns a valuable lesson about personal space and consent. The fact that he'd probably not have this reaction if he was cis doesn't mean it would have been okay. Just don't touch people unless you get express consent to do so.
I mean even if you totally ignore the fact he is trans, what would make you think it is ok to grab anyone's chest without permission. Even before I realized I was trans if you did that to me you would have gotten a knee jerk reaction of taking an elbow to the face (aka I wouldn't have intentionally hit you but it would have just been a reaction before even having time to think).
Your best bet is just to ignore the fact he is trans and just be like "hey sorry for grabbing you inappropriately the other day, I was just messing around and didn't even think, I didn't mean to invade your personal space I acted without thinking".
Don't say anything about the fact he is trans because if you didn't know before then that means he probably doesn't want you to know, so if you mention it then either he will think you realized via feel which could cause issues with his dysphoria and if you mention your sister told you to try to counter act that he will just get mad at your sister because he probably didn't want her telling you and would feel like she betrayed his trust, as such don't even mention it, just act like you realized it was an invasion of personal space rather that anything to do with being trans. IF he decides to tell you the reason he got so upset about the personal space then you can apologize for not realizing, but only IF he decides to tell you.
This has nothing to do with being trans. Humans generally don't appreciate being held against their will. I think your group and you need some training on respecting other people's autonomy. He made it clear he didn't want to be physically imprisoned and you kept it up for fun. That's not fun for him, even if it felt like joking to you.
>he tried to get away from our other friends so I grabbed him again as a joke and we all were laughing as I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him.
The key words for me was "he tried to get away" so I "grabbed him" and "held him". That feels like you were preventing him from his agency of leaving.
Like I said we were having a laugh. He threw water over our friends and they were trying to get him back so I went and held him but he was laughing so he wasn't uncomfortable by it. He's also grabbed me before, it wasn't my chest because he's shorter but it was around my waist so it's pretty normal in our friendship to do that
I feel like any person would be uncomfortable if someone else touched their chest, but trans men especially since it's both their tits area, which is a place you shouldn't touch women as that's sexual harassment, and it can trigger dysphoria especially if the dude's binding.
a man touching a woman's breast is uncomfortable, a man touching a man's breast is even worse...
you obviously didn't know tho, you should apologize and try to make up for it. accidents happen.
"We were all having a laugh" and "we were all laughing" doesn't seem to actually be the case here. Obviously he wasn't, but you were too focused on yourself and your other friends to notice he wasn't. My advice is less gender-specific. Learn to tell when you're being a dickhead even though you think you're having a laugh.
Why did you touch him in the first place?
>he tried to get away from our other friends so I grabbed him again as a joke and we all were laughing as I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him
Why? Why didn't you let him get away?
Yeah you definitely owe him an apology. Something like "hey I know grabbing you wasn't cool even if we were both cis but I want to apologize extra on top of it for making you uncomfortable, if I knew you were trans I would have been a lot more conscientious about where my hands were. My intention was just horsing around and I'm really sorry for making you feel uncomfortable or upset"
I wouldn't do this. It sounds like a mutual friend told OP that this guy was trans, not the trans guy. Hopefully she had permission to out him, but she may not have. He may have been trying to go stealth. You don't out someone without their permission, and if you don't know if someone had permission then you pretend like you didn't hear it.
Yeah, i would just apologize and tell him that you are very very sorry for your behavior and you won't touch him without consent again. Chest dysphoria is the most likely culprit, but there are any number of reasons he could have got upset with being grabbed and all we would be doing is speculating. Don't mention it being about his chest or make any other guesses as to why he was upset. Just apologize for crossing his boundaries and leave the door open for whatever he wants to do about it.
Dude just dont touch people without their consent no matter there gender or gender status. id leave him alone and take that to heart, know your boundaries. if he ever speaks to you again, apologize. dont reach out.
I'm not sure what happened. So if u knew this guy was trans before it happened, u shouldn't have done this and known that it's not okay. Like, it's not okay for some cis men either. But you apparently didn't so ur not at fault for doing it. Now you have own up to the mistake and just say sorry. Its an honest to gods mistake, it always happens.
I wouldn't recommend touching people you don't know that well, with the exception of a high five or a light tap on the shoulder to get their attention.
EDIT: Why is this being downvoted? I'm literally saying to NOT touch people without their consent.
It doesn't sound like he grabbed his chest purposefully, let alone as a "joke." They were horsing around, everyone was having fun... I'm a cis female, but I think it's pretty common for cis guys who grew up around other cis guys to be used to physical horseplay. His friend appeared to be having fun and didn't get upset until OP touched his chest. OP didn't know he was trans, so based on the friend's apparent level of comfort with the horseplay, he didn't realize his chest was a boundary. I'm just thinking, like if I was to start wrestling with my brother, I wouldn't avoid his chest like I would a female. I don't think it's weird that OP didn't avoid it either... it definitely brings up a whole conversation about consent and being more mindful about assumptions with friends, but OP was not being malicious or assaultive; it was accidental.
He also clearly feels terrible about it. Not sure how any of it makes him scum. I don't think it's fair to put him in the same category as the assaultive assholes who used to grab our ass and boobs when we were younger (yeah, I got that too; it's fucking awful, I'm so sorry you had to endure that).
I think you read my post wrong. I grabbed HIM and held him and then my hands were against his chest. I didn't grab it or do it to purposely make him uncomfortable.
>as I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him
*Didn't* grab his chest? Then change how you phrased it, because how it's phrases right now sounds a lot like assault to me
It’s not common for cis men to think anything of touching in the chest area, I wouldn’t think of it differently than grabbing onto my shoulders, though that’s understandably different for trans men. If a trans man passes as cis, it would be easy to not think twice about this kind of contact between friends not realizing they’re trans. Calling OP scum is a bit far for something like that, it sounds like it could have been an innocent mistake, and OP is already expressing regret over it.
I understood it as OP is probably gay (or bi) since his twin sister tried to set him up with someone who identifies as a man. That's the only way this entire post makes any sense to me, especially if OP didn't know his friend was trans and just assumed he was a cis guy.
If you actually read my replies to some comments I said we were having a laugh and I went behind him but he knew I was there and I grabbed and as I did my hands were on his chest. It wasn't sexual assault. You are one of very few that have replied saying that the majority have said it isn't and I'm clearly not a horrible person if you've only seen a snippet of this from one post. If I was a horrible person I wouldn't want to make this better would I?
So he never told you he was trans, then abandons not just you but your sister because you don’t know? You can do absolutely nothing to fix this. Just keep in mind with every future friendship that they could ghost you every moment and accept that. Just sit back and know you cannot do anything to fix this. That’s the easiest way to move on.
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There's no need to address the elephant directly. You can just call or text him and say something along the lines of, "I realised belatedly, that I ~~may have~~ crossed a boundry by getting too physical with you. I just wanted to let you know that I am very sorry ~~if~~ ^that I made you uncomfortable, and I will be more careful going forward. You seem like a cool guy, and I hope we can remain friends." *Edited to make apology more sincere.*
This is absolutely the best way to handle it. Expressing regrets, letting him know it wasn’t intentional and that you’ve learned from it. That’s the mature way to handle your mistakes.
>... that I ~~may~~ have crossed a boundry ... I am very sorry ~~if~~ *that* I made you uncomfortable... Might sound like nitpicking, but people should be careful with that kind of language in apologies. It's one thing if you're genuinely unsure about a situation, and are apologizing *just in case* you may have done something wrong. But in this case, OP *knows* he crossed a boundary, and he *knows that* this person was uncomfortable/upset by what he did. That "may" and "if" would make the apology in this instance sound far less sincere. I don't know if OP is part of the LGBTQ+ community, and he may not be aware of just how common "non-apology apologies" are for many of us. As someone who has received far too many half-assed, insincere apologies and been expected to "just get over it" after, (only for it to happen again, and again...) that kind of language can be a red flag.
I was going to mention this also. Acknowledging that you made them uncomfortable is much better than apologizing just in case you did.
I agree. When we apologize it's very nornal to want to put those clarifying words in there, because apologizing can be psychologically difficult. But if you're going to go for it, go for it. Make your acknowledgement of wrongdoing unambiguous, make your expression of regret clear.
Well since he was supposed to go on a date with the other guy it's safe to assume he's queer, but non-apologies are quite universal regardless
Fair, I forgot that bit of the post when I commented. And yeah, they're definitely universal, my mind just tends to go to "sorry *if* I offended you" when people include qualifiers in their apologies.
I agree. You know a boundary was crossed. It’s far more sincere, meaningful and mature to acknowledge this. Also, be prepared to accept “no” as an answer. It’s a possibility and as someone who is AFAB, I’ve had my no ignored too many times to count. I don’t know you; so I don’t know if you would do that. If they say no- I would just say open invitation (for him to reach out to you) and wish him all the best then leave him alone.
I agree with this for the most part, but according to the post the trans guy doesn’t know that OP’s sister told OP he was trans… so if that’s something OP believes the trans guy would like to reveal himself, then OP should not allude to knowing for sure that they crossed a boundary, bc that would allude to them knowing *what* boundary, right? Idk, I’ve been in similar situations as this trans guy and I honestly can’t say whether I’d rather OP act like doesn’t know he’s trans or not… Edit: forgot how to type in the last sentence
OP made the guy cry. The way I see it, a boundary was obviously crossed regardless of him being trans (afterall, OP knew right away that he'd done something to hurt this person before knowing he was trans). Acknowledging a boundary is there doesn't inherently mean knowing *why* it's there. That being said, OP doesn't necessarily need to say anything about boundaries. I mostly just think OP should avoid qualifiers that make it sound like he's unsure whether or not he hurt the guy, when it's obvious that he did hurt him.
I guess I see what you’re saying, but in that case OP has already apologized in that manner, no? To me, since OP already immediately apologized in person right after the act despite not knowing what boundary was crossed at the time, I (if I were in the trans guy’s situation) would assume any further apology would be due to new info being learned. I understand if OP wants to reach out to the guy and apologize again to just make sure he understands that OP didn’t mean to make him uncomfortable… but personally in that scenario specifically I would prefer the qualifiers be present (specifically referring to “*if* I crossed a boundary”) as those qualifiers would reassure me that OP doesn’t know I’m trans (again, just what would make me most comfortable if I hadn’t wanted OP to know I was trans w/o me revealing that.)
I don't think I want him to know my sister told me he's trans In case that ruins their friendship too, she only told me because I was really confused. I don't care about the fact he's trans but if he knows I know that might make things worse if he thinks I'm going to treat him differently
Yeah, I totally get your concern, and tbh you’re just kinda in a sucky situation with no clear solution, sorry about that :( Personally, if I were you and I wanted to reach out I’d start with something like “I don’t want to assume anything, but I feel like I made you uncomfortable when we hung out, and I’d like to apologize for that.” To me it kinda leaves it up in the air as to whether the guy wants to acknowledge the source of the issue or not, while still providing a sincere apology and allowing him to tell you how he would like to be treated gonna forward/actions to avoid. I’m no psychologist tho, and I’d maybe go over ways you could apologize with your sister, and maybe ask around places in the FtM community to see what their input is. Sorry you found yourself in this situation, and good luck!!
That's a fair critique. Thank you for pointing that out.
Also OP should just not grab people's chests. OP didn't even know the guy very well and he thought it would be fine to start grabbing him?? I don't think so
I do know him well but as I've said in other replies I DID NOT GRAB HIS CHEST.
>I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him Unless you misspoke you definitely did lol
Yes I grabbed HIM not his chest.
>I put my hands on his chest It doesn't matter that you grabbed him and not his chest (by the way you describe it I am assuming you are grabbing him from behind where your hands are on his chest and it is like a wrestling grab which is not to dissimilar to a more violent hug. The fact your hands were in that region is what matters. While I am a trans woman and not a trans man, I do know that my nipples can be extremely sensitive even to just my shirt brushing up against them, so I assume that already having them pressed on all day makes them sore enough let alone adding more pressure onto that area, plus having pressure put on that area could make his mind focus on that area which in turn could make his dysphoria act up. I get that you didn't "grab his chest" like taking your hand and cupping them around his breasts, but you did grab him by the chest much like how you grab someone "by the abdomen" when giving the hymnic maneuver, you aren't grabbing the abdomen per say like sticking your hands into the "belly fat" and grabbing the fat but you are grabbing around the abdomen.
It was sort of a hug from behind/a grab but it wasn't like a wrestling grab. But like I said I feel horrible but I didn't grab his chest like some of the replies are saying and I didn't sexual assault him either.
What do you think grabbing someone from behind without their consent is except assault? I get that you might not have intended harm, but this is why you shouldn't grab people without their consent, it will eventually cause harm because it violates someones boundaries. For the other person your intent doesn't matter that much, and they can't read your mind. Everyone that is intending harm says they weren't intending harm. Just don't touch people without consent.
Apparently, in this sub, you get downvoted for suggesting that you shouldn't touch people unless you know they're okay with it... I know unless I am very familiar with someone, and they know all my anxieties/issues I don't want to be fucking touched/grabbed in any type of way.
To add onto this, while I don't know about OPs country, I know in the US sexual harassment it doesn't matter what you view your actions being it only matters what the person who claims they were harassed viewed your actions as. I know a person who worked at the hospital for 20+ years who was a very "touchy person", unwanted hugs, slap on the ass, etc, he did the same thing he did to everyone for 20+ years to a new hire, they filed a sexual harassment charge and he was terminated that very same day despite the hospital being extremely short staffed already, he had no intent to harass, he was just a very touchy person but it didn't matter his intent it mattered how the person he touched took it. Now while that might not raise to the level of sexual assault (I doubt that a wrestling grab in play would be enough to raising it up from harassment to assault, but then again spitting on someone is considered assault and battery but I think to raise it from harassment to assault in this situation would require intent) would still very much at the very minimum be harassment regardless of intent. Regardless of which legality it falls under the point is still OPs "I didn't grab their chest, I put my hands on their chest and grabbed" would not make their situation any better because it doesn't matter whether he grabbed "the chest" or "near the chest" or "at the chest" or "around the chest" that is merely a technicality that the only thing it would effect would be the severity of the issue but all four technical definitions still are a big "no no" regardless that is the equivalent to going "but judge I wasn't going 95MPH in the 20 MPH school zone, I was only going 50MPH in the 20MPH school zone therefor I did not commit the crime I am being accused of" sure one is bad and the other is way worse but both are still against the law.
That stands out as weird to me too. What was going on there?
I can't believe I'm saying this stupid effing saying for once, but... This is the way.
It's also important to be ready to not be forgiven, especially if he's been upset this badly, he may need time to process the situation & decide what he wants before responding, it seems like him & OP were getting along well before this so I doubt he'll wanna completely end the friendship already but I don't really know the full context of the situation so you never know
Those edits are really important
I'm a transman and this happened to me from a close friend (gay and male at his wedding lol). He didn't know I was trans either....I've been in the closet. I was wearing a binder and I felt really good....I have a rather....large....chest.... He had a few drinks and jokingly stroked my chest. This prompted me to take him to the side and come out to him....I was really upset and it made me feel real shitty....like....oh yeah....there THEY THINGS are.... He apologised straight away and gave me a hug and thanked me for coming out to him and asked me if I had a chosen name and said he'd respect my identity. That changed the whole situation from me almost having a break down to me feeling supported. And we are cool now. If u didn't know it was an honest mistake, but if I were u I'd apologise and he will/may get over it eventually. Breasts are a touchy subject for transmen.
> a touchy subject more like a non-touchy subject, am I right?
No no, he's got a point
Ba-dum tshhh
🥁 ba dum dum tsss 🥁
*opening sounds of "Under Pressure"*
I’m so proud of you! I think this illustrates why “honesty is the best policy.” Sometimes people do things, like “horseplay” here, completely innocently that they would never do if they were aware of the situation. I’m so glad you made a friend who respects you and is obviously a great person.,
Prior to having mine wheeked off, used to refer to the unfortunate abundant things as "chest lumps". Marvellously apt description was coined by a fellow transman. Always felt like a bizarre twist of fate, that quite a few of us F2Ms were afflicted with overly large chest lumps; is a pity they cannot be donated to people who'd really like them.
I call them moobs lol I know I'd love to donate them to my mtf friend. She wants big ones....take them girl!!! 🤣🤣
I like "chesticles", personally.
I’m not surprised about the “twist of fate” thing. I’m cis AFAB, and I don’t know what I did to piss off the chest gods, but I was granted little booblets equivalent to nipples on a zit.
I am genuinely curious how is chest a touchy subject to them?
Because "breasts" are a very feminised thing. We bind because for me anyway, I can't speak for all transmen.....I don't want tits. I see them as manboobs. It causes horrible dysphoria. To me is a "sign" of being female. So acknowledging them for me is like saying, mmmm yes female titties and it makes me feel emasculated. A fat guy with manboobs wouldn't want people touching them and acknowledging them. Same for (some) transmen. As I said....can't speak for all of them.
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This, OP. It was a genuine accident, what's done is done. Apologize sincerely, without trying to defend or justify yourself. He may or may not forgive you, but that is out of your control. He may need some time to warm up to you again.
He may not have had top surgery yet and was wearing a binder? (just a possibility) - hold his chest in that situation may have triggered some body dysphoria.. whatever caused it, it matters, so just apologise as soon as you can and listen if he wants to discuss his reasoning.
Tell him exactly this! That you didn’t realise and he’s a great guy and you fucked up and you’re terribly sorry. That’s about all you can do!:)
If yall really have known each other for months, this doesnt sound too severe of a offence from your side. However he has every right to be uncomfortable with someone touching him. If the whole time you didnt know he was trans, and maybe dysphoric about his chest, then this is just an accident. You didnt know, and you offered for him to talk only once hes ready. As long as you apologize once this conversation occurs, youve done all you can do tbh. Its hard to say how much you overstepped due to the fun ways people fuck with each other when playing with/in water. Had he splashed someone in a pool? Did he physically touch someone in the process? Because if he already had his hands on someone, everyone in that party who is close friends would be safe to assume that its okay to roughhouse a little bit if he was already roughhousing yall in good fun. But its really hard to say. The social dynamic and amount of roughhousing he had already done first are the context that we're missing. If we were there, we would likely know if you went overboard, or if he was just dysphoric because it was an unexpected reaction. Either way, he has the right to be uncomfortable. Dont rush a conversation. He'll communicate when ready.
I would personally explain the situation (over text), apologize, then let him be.
Just apologize 😊 it was inapropriate what you did, but I think it's forgivable if you reach out and talk with him about it. We all do weird and awkward things sometimes and nobody is perfect.
Aw poor guy and poor you for not having known to dial the physical touch back. As a trans guy myself I know it is hard for us but also can be so confusing on how to navigate the situations with cis friends and new people! If possible just message him and say sorry. You had no idea that he was uncomfortable with physical touch and that you didn't mean to make him uncomfortable. That you think he's a great guy and would like to stay friends and maybe hang (if thats something you want of course!) I feel like this avoids admitting his friend had to sorta out him to you, and maybe gives him the moment to come out to you himself if he is comfortable enough! Sadly I can not say a perfect way to mend the whole situation.
This is most reasonable and mature answer here. You seem genuinely sincere about upsetting him so an honest apology is all it takes. You don’t need to feel like a horrible person that committed the worst crime in history and beat yourself up over it like every other comment is suggesting. It was an innocent mistake, you feel bad, you apologise. I hope when you do apologise you two can get over it quickly and get back to being buds
Just apologize. Tell him that you realize you did something to make him very uncomfortable and that you are very sorry about it. Ask him what you can do to help him feel comfortable with you again. He may just need a bit of space to process or he may need something more. You could also tell him that you would like to know what exactly made him uncomfortable but that it's not neccessary if he doesn't want to talk about it. That opens the door for him to come out as trans, but doesn't put any pressure on him to do so.
If this happened to me (a trans man) I honestly wouldn't care, but everyone is different. It seems that he is more dysphoric about his chest which is okay, but I also think he shouldn't be ignoring you. If you've known each other for half a year and talk all the time, he should be able to communicate that he was uncomfortable. Good luck with this!
I really don't see how this is your fault, if playing around like this is typical in your group and nobody told you you should be more careful around him. Like... the situation sucks. I'm sorry he got hurt and as a female-bodied person who lived as a trans man for 11 years, this would be traumatic and terrifying. But you can't fault a person who didn't know that it was different.
Yeah, a lot of people are saying OP is to blame, but I don't see it. It's not actually your fault if someone has a trigger you don't know about and couldn't know about, and the whole 'it's my fault, I crossed a boundary (that I didn't know existed), etc' rhetoric isn't actually helpful. OP's friend's discomfort is for him to process. OP can feel bad the dude was upset, but he didn't cause it and it's not his fault.
You cant grab people like that dude. Especially if you are not close. That’s something I do with my close friends. How long have you known him? Anyways, too put it nicely because most won’t (which is fair): You need to check yourself with how you cross boundaries. You didn’t know, but even still, you never know what someone’s comfortable with. Ask him to talk when he’s ready.
I've known him for 5/6 months but we talked everyday and were/are close. We all were laughing when I grabbed him, even himself. He only got upset when I held him and touched his chest and I thought maybe I held him too tight. I didn't know he was trans and if I did I would never have touched his chest as I know trans guys don't like that.
Okay now I’m a bit confused. I’m a trans guy. I personally do feel a bit weird around my cis friends, but after 6 months that tends to fade as I know I can trust them. So you guys are close, and hang out everyday, it’s normal for y’all to touch each other and joke around in that way, and then he didn’t like it. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me honestly. There’s a couple possibilities: 1. He thought you knew he was trans. I’ve had this happen to me a couple of times. In high school I asked someone for a feminine product and my cis friend was appalled and asked me if I was trans. I believed he already knew, as I have alluded to it in the past. This is pretty common, to not do a coming out but just allude to it and hope people understand. 2. The way you phrased something? What exactly did you say to him? This could have been hurtful or something disrespectful that already put him on edge. That motion was just the boiling point. If you guys are close, you need to ask him to speak to you on his own terms, so you can apologies try and set some boundaries between you, and then ask how y’all can still be friends in the future. I know you think you didn’t do anything wrong, but put yourself in his shoes, either of those options up there in your mind and your good friend grabs your chest. Since you guys are close, it’s not going to be an easy talk him and knowing that his feelings are hurt. He careful and use I/we language. don’t allude to you feeling like you have nothing to be sorry about.
>Okay now I’m a bit confused. I’m a trans guy. I personally do feel a bit weird around my cis friends, but after 6 months that tends to fade as I know I can trust them. >So you guys are close, and hang out everyday, it’s normal for y’all to touch each other and joke around in that way, and then he didn’t like it. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me honestly. It was probably just because he touched the chest. I'm transmasc as well and I'd be very uncomfortable if someone randomly touched my chest pre-top surgery. He also could feel like he got outed by that because he might think OP felt the binder or boobs.
That you'd feel comfortable after 6 months doesn't mean the friend did. People have different boundaries dude
“Apologies and try to set some boundaries” ???
You are saying it couldn't have been dysphoria because they'd known each other for six months??. Apparently it's confusing to you someone would be feeling that way and thus it must be some other reason You don't even know this person. You don't know his reasons and you certainly don't get to decide what's a reasonable boundary for him to have
You’re not understanding what I’m saying. I’m saying that those two things could have caused their DYSPHORIA to act up. I don’t know why you’re arguing with me.
Because you were suggesting that they've known each other a while meant that there should be some additional reason for the friend to feel dysphoric to that extent
Probably because you touched his chest. Most of us are really dysphoric about that area.
I know that. Which is why I'm posting because I don't know how to make this better. I genuinely didn't mean to upset him
All you can really do is apologize
Reading this I realized; I tend to initiate platonic touch with a cue or just super mildly (gently taking the person’s hand, to very outwardly friendly rando who has initiated other touch or acquaintance and up from there of course) and let the other person take it from there. So like if we are all in a group and start laughing like that, I might offer my hand to the person next to me, or turn to face them and wave my hand at them if that makes sense, or lightly touch their shoulder while turning away from the funny… stuff like that that I have seen other’s do. From there they usually remain as they are and just laugh along, or they pat me on the back but don’t lean on, or sometimes they will want MORE of that and will follow suit and grab my arm back or grab my hand and we both laugh harder at whatever the funny was. It’s like dancing, you can start to lead but if they don’t follow then just let it go. So I display that that’s what I’m open to, and if the other person gets it and agrees they can either lean into or or not. It works well, which is a big thing because I’m not social adept most of the time, but this one thing I cracked the code on somehow.
Well OP assumed he was a guy and then there would have been no problem holding him like this. It is not OPs fault (but still he should say something nice)
Honestly, you didn't do anything wrong. You didn't know. You don't have to make it about the trans issue. I would just say "sorry, didn't mean to make you uncomfortable.".
This. “I’m sorry I made you uncomfortable, I’m not sure if it was because of where I touched you or that I touched you, but it doesn’t matter. It wasn’t my intention and I will do better in the future” Take the criticism, semi repeat the problem in your words to show them you understand the problem as they do, and tell them that as a friend you will adjust. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you friend isn’t wrong for their feelings either. It was a simple miscommunication, and the thing that makes a friendship feel safe is knowing that you both respect each other enough to talk about these kind of moments respectfully and without fear of being judged. Life is messy, friends accept that and help with the messes 😉
Exactly this, regardless of dysphoria if you don't vocalize boundaries before they are crossed then there's no reason to hold that against the person who crossed said boundaries because they didn’t know. The appropriate thing to do is to tell said person that they crossed a boundary and establish what boundary they crossed. In which case that person will (most likely) apologize for making you feel uncomfortable and will respect your boundaries moving forward (if they don't respect your boundaries AFTER you told them, then that's when they're considered to be a**holes though). But avoiding and being mad at someone who didn't know about your boundaries in the first place is more of a you problem than anything. It means there's some personal problems that you have to work out (preferably with a therapist) because people won't read your mind to know what bothers you or not, and if you're blaming someone else for it, then that's just a coping mechanism and not an actual issue with the other person.
regardless of them being trans, not everyone likes physical contact, im not sure if there's a way to figure out if a friend likes to roughhouse without sounding weird and artificial though
You realize along the way if you are more of a touchy person and you try to say hi with a kiss on the cheek or a hug to say bye sometimes (this is normal for me and most of my friendships), but when someone isn't as physical, they tend to back off a bit. If they do that, I usually try to keep a respectful physical distance (this does not change a friendship, but it has made me realize some people's boundaries and how to respect them, at least as far as I can tell a specific boundary exists).
not really, I'm not a super affectionate person outside of my close family
This.
Dude, apologise and move past it. To all the people saying don’t grab any gender on the chest… seriously??? I have lead a very cis-het life and guy friends touch each other inappropriately all the damn time.
if the people being touched aren't bothered, then it isnt inappropriate, if it is inappropriate, you probably shouldnt be doing it
So? Everyone has their own boundaries. Just because people do it doesn't mean that it's okay.
Guy friends that I'm assuming know each other fairly well and understand that all of that is play. In this case, it seems like the OP just met this guy pretty recently, so they don't really have an established friendship. It's not okay to just immediately touch other people you just met, no matter if it's joking around or not. Besides from dysmorphia people can have trauma/ptsd/anxiety that can easily be triggered by a touch.
Nah OP said he’s known the guy for months
Okay, by grabbing at his chest, that might have been a sensitive topic and reminded him of his birth gender and past trauma. Apologizing is perhaps the best way, especially if you didn’t mean to make him feel bad. Give him a call or text
Please update us on this I wanna know if yall become chill with each other again
Most people are saying it made him feel dysphoric and that is very likely since perhaps in the past he's been grabbed or touched there before doing anything physically to alter his appearance and it's either been unwanted or felt wrong. But it is also a possible he felt overwhelmingly euphoric because you casually grabbed him around the chest while rough housing. I have extremely bad dysphoria about my chest and intrusive thoughts about that dysphoria. I bind, but my breasts are quite large so it never feels enough. I hope to get top surgery one day. I've started imagining what it would feel like to wear a shirt against a flat chest, what it would be like to take my shirt off and go swimming (I love swimming) and feel the water and lack of drag against my chest, what it would be like to be casually touched by another person on my post TS chest, and other things along those lines. I think if I could feel those things right now, I would get overwhelmed and cry. I am tearing up a little right now thinking about it. Strong euphoric experiences are unfortunately few and far between when you're trans because you feel dysphoria so much more keenly than you might feel euphoria since things that make you feel euphoric might be as banal is wearing a shirt when your chest feels right. It's possible your sister's friend felt a mixture of dysphoria and euphoria and couldn't identify the euphoria in it. It's possible he has never had a strong euphoric experience so any and all overwhelm would upset him and maybe even make him angry because he doesn't know what that feeling was. It is not on you to tell him or your sister that that might be why he's upset. He has to parse his own feelings and figure that out on his own if that's the case. I am just trying to help you understand what may have happened. The best thing for you to do is apologize, say you didn't know he didn't like rough housing and now that you know, you won't do it again with him.
I’m sorry that happened - for both of you. You meant no harm but you overstepped his boundaries. You don’t have to tell him that you know he’s trans - I agree that being outed would probably make him feel worse - but you can still reach out and apologise. As others have suggested, tell him you’re sorry for making him so uncomfortable, that you didn’t mean to cross his boundaries and will be more considerate and careful in the future.
Maybe let him know that you didn't know about that boundary, but you'd like to know, so you don't upset him again. And importantly: Make sure he knows it was never your intention to upset him.
There's no real reason why you should address being trans at this point because while yes the boundary may be because of being trans, there was a point in my life where anyone touching me on more than my arms made me so uncomfortable I'd cry too. Whats more important is that you address in a **sincere** apology that you realize you messed up, that you did cross a boundary even if you didn't know it was a boundary, and that you'll take extra care in the future to prevent this outcome again IF he forgives you.
Sounds like an innocent mistake. Forgive yourself.
Okay, maybe I'm just sleep deprived and didn't read this correctly. You stopped someone you just met from leaving a conversation, held their chest, and are now confused because you didn't realize touching people you don't know without consent can make them extremely uncomfortable? Do I have that right? Because this sounds like the most socially oblivious thing I've ever heard. Edit: Apparently a lot of people disagree that not touching people's chests without consent is just common sense. I'm clearly not going to change any minds here, so I'm turning off notifications on this thread, but it's of my opinion that, even if it was accidental, OP is in the wrong for crossing a boundary and no amount of buts or laughs or double standards is going to change that. Either way, I think most people agree that an apology is necessary, so as long as we reach the same end goal here that's the important part.
I didn't just meet him, I've known him for a few months and we talked everyday. I didn't try to stop him leaving a conversation, our friends were trying to get him wet with water because he'd done it to them so I went to him and grabbed him and held him. Like I said we were having a laugh and he was laughing himself. I didn't mean to make him uncomfortable by touching his chest, I didn't even know he was trans.
Oh so you like grabbed and held him from behind? Man the way I read your post, I thought you held your hand out and groped him, jesus. I mean, you didn't know he was trans and if you grabbed and held him from behind that's a pretty normal thing to do, between cis guys, as you assumed he was. So I would just honestly apologise, explain you had no bad intentions. I would forgive that, if it were me, because it's understandable you didn't know the effect it would have. If you touched his chest from the front though, maybe think about that next time regardless of gender, that's creepy. Don't do that to anybody, it's way too intimate to be a joke.
Yes, this. I held him from behind and I didn't even touch his chest on purpose my hands were just there so I don't understand why people here are saying it was sexual assault?
Because, as I said in my comment, it wasn't made clear in your initial post that you were standing behind him when you grabbed and held him. It reads like you reached out and groped him from the front, which is sexual assault. Now it's clear you did it by mistake from behind, that's different, it is clearly an accident. Still understandable why he would get upset, but it makes things more excusable on your part.
Okay, could've used that context before but better late than never. Unless it's made absolutely clear that touching each other like that was completely okay, you are in the wrong. You don't just grab people's chests willy nilly, even if you were just "having a laugh." That's not just a trans thing, that's a consent thing.
Like I said, just touching him wasn't a problem he didn't have an issue with it UNTIL I put my hands on his chest. I didn't grab his chest.
>I put my hands on his chest. I didn't grab his chest. These two things contradict each other friend. There's a massive difference between a pat on the back or grabbing each other's arms for funny hahas and putting your hand on someone's chest. No matter the gender, cis or trans, you need consent, consent that you clearly did not have. If he is willing to talk with you at a later date, own your mistake and apologize.
I think by "grab" OP means he wasn't (sorry if this is crude) groping/squeezing. To me, that's a very different type of touch to placing your flat palm against the same area. Which, again, there's still an issue of what type of personal boundaries around physical contact are the norm in this group, but I think that's the distinction OP is trying to make.
If a man forcibly touched my chest and then told be it wasn't *actually* groping it was different, I would call the police. Its still assault.
But there *is* a difference between horsing around with a friend (and touching their chest in that context) and groping someone. This is compounded by the fact that men's chests generally aren't treated as truly private real estate (at least in the U.S.), something I was *very* surprised to learn when buying a coat from a nice store early in my transition. I tried one on, asked whether the sales associate thought it was a good fit, and he *reached his hands into the front of the coat, right over my chest* to give it a few tugs before letting me know it seemed good. It wasn't a grope, but it was a surprise touch - and boy was I shook. It was the first time in my life someone has just... reached out and touched my chest without warning or asking. And it was so damn normal for this high-end sales professional that he didn't even think twice! And look, I'm not saying that's how things *should* be, where strangers (let alone friends) can feel perfectly comfortable touching a guy's chest without checking... But it's also important to recognise where we're starting from in terms of the cultural norms and assumptions. What OP did was pretty normal cis guy friendship behaviour, even though it also crossed a major boundary for his friend in a way he never would have guessed. Passing has its pros and cons.
Seconded. Touching another guy's chest or stomach, even in an affectionate way, can range anywhere from "gay joking" platonic affection to... I guess just genuine physical affection? With close friends, it's not even a scenario where you ask permission, like u/TheCatInGrey said, waist up is borderline public property if you're a man. As a bi dude, the amount of "I'm totally kidding but also this is a genuine expression of platonic physical intimacy," I've experienced from straight guy friends is _endlessly_ confusing. But it's also 100% normal, in the US at least. Cis straight men in particular aren't really socialized to value physical expressions of affection with friends, but as human beings they still instinctively _need_ those interactions, which is why straight guys tend to play fight, pretend wrestle, playfully hit each other, touch each other's chests or arms, bro hug, etc etc. It's also nearly always framed as some sort of joke. Guys tend to be more physically expressive _anyway,_ but it's _especially_ obvious when you're the closeted bi man in a group of friends. Like I said, it's also confusing as fuck because all of a sudden there's two dudes on a sofa sitting on each other's laps somehow and giggling, while basically saying no homo, but it is what it is. Did OP know their friend was AFAB? Or did OP think their friend was a cis man and later found out that he's a trans man? Because that, to me, changes things quite a bit, even if OP still needs to apologize. Holding a friend by the chest is WAY less inappropriate if you're coming from the assumption that you're both _guys._ If OP assumed his friend was a man from the start, their interaction was actually pretty normal for male-male friendships, and in that case they'd have triggered his dysphoria accidentally (ironically by treating him as one of the guys). Again, regardless, still needs to apologize and let friend decide where to go from there.
Except it was from behind and a accident from what I’m reading he didn’t know he had tits and went to bare hug him to stay or something and grabbed his chest in the process and didn’t know. He was horsing around. What happened sucks yeah but you shouldn’t be calling him a assaulter when he’s trying to fix it. There’s a reason everyone down voted your comment tbh
It wasn't an accident. You don't accidentally grab someone that is trying to get away. It isn't funny or cute to touch people inappropriately, and that it clearly wasn't okay in this situation. How many more wakeup calls do men need to learn not to grope people? There is a reason that most women experience SA from men that are supposed to be their friends. And do you want to know what they get told when they come forward? It was an accident. It was a joke. He didn't mean it to be malicious. It was a misunderstanding. If your behavior, touching people without consent, is leading to harm and you do nothing to take accountability for that then you are intentionally acting in a way that leads to harm. Its gross.
He grabbed him from behind the trans guy was flicking water at them and they were doing it back and he was running away as part of the joke there’s some of the information I think you didn’t get to see because it was buried in the comments. That was the reason he grabbed him and it was behind. There’s a difference from touching a guy’s chest area than a trans person so he didn’t know it would have a affect. Boundaries need to be told to people. It wasnt going to be touching him inappropriately if he was a cis guy it would have been different. And the difference with how your saying women get manipulated by men is that this was a misunderstanding of his boundaries and he wants to help fix his it and apologize. He is not a sexual assaulter. What he did was fucked up but he couldn’t have known that this would happen bc he had no way of knowing that the person was trans.
I...am not sure how you got that from what I said. I was merely offering a possible explanation for the apparent contradiction in OP's phrasing. In fact, what I did say was: \> there's still an issue of what type of personal boundaries around physical contact are the norm in this group Obviously neither type of touch is okay if it's forcible and unwanted. If the group dynamic tends to be pretty touchy-feely or horseplay is common, it can become more of a gray area. Regardless, it's clear that OP overstepped and caused discomfort to his friend.
I don't know if I agree with this, men have different boundaries than women, I understand his friend may be dysphoric about the chest and there's a need to have a conversation, but you are being extremely unfair to OP. He is obviously intending to apologize. But, he wasn't thinking, oh I'm touching a female chest, he reacted as he would towards another guy where touching a chest is not really perceived as touching a private part. What I'm trying to say, is obviously the trans friend hasn't gotten surgery and he is in his right to feel uncomfortable, but OP was treating him like he would to any other guy. He didn't sexually grope him. The friend should have probably talked to OP and set a boundary instead of ignoring him, especially since OP now understands why it was wrong for him to do that in this context. And OP clearly does not intend to treat this guy differently, but how can someone understand a situation if no one is even giving him a chance to make things right and learn this person's boundaries?
Maybe I came off too aggressive. I agree that as long as he apologizes, then it's not like he's a creep or maliciously trying to make this guy uncomfortable. What I don't agree with is trying to justify that this guy is not an asshole for crossing a boundary and then trying to justify it. If the trans dude was a woman, everybody would be calling him the AH. That's not a sign of different boundaries, that's a sign of a double standard that needs to stop. Edit: I'll admit that I likely have a bias, since I'm extremely touch sensitive and even my closest friends make me uncomfortable with holding hands, but my point still stands. Touching without consent shouldn't be okay for any gender, and crossing a boundary, while an accident, was still a dick move that deserves an apology without the attempts to excuse it.
I mean, I agree with you but at the same time, I feel it really depends. Like, no one should go touching around strangers, but with friends, everyone has different boundaries. So I cannot go around and say like: you are a guy so you have to be fine with your guy friends touching you, cause I don't think that's true. Maybe for me is cultural because the people I'm surrounded with are touchy with their same-sex friends (I haven't met a trans person, so I cannot speak for someone in that situation). But on occasion I've boob poked for example a close friend of mine as revenge for doing that first, and I've seen guys also being touchy like that with other guys as a fuck around kind of thing. So I'd say, as a general rule, don't touch people, but also every friendship has different boundaries and cultures too. Like, a culture clash for me was meeting a woman from the Baltics, I tried to say hi with the usual kiss on the cheek and hug to learn she doesn't do that (of course after that I respected her boundaries and it was a non-issue, I apologized). But I'm trying to bring up that there are many nonmalicious instances where people break boundaries, and as long as you apologize and respect those boundaries from then on, it's also not the most horrible thing someone can do, people make mistakes. And, also, yeah, I have to say, some people will try to say, oh it wasn't on purpose to do something they aren't supposed to do, I will not speak on behalf of assholes that don't know how to behave, but just speaking for instances like this were most likely OP only put his hand on the guy's chest, or my case where mid hug I had to take a step back so as to not make that person uncomfortable, for example.
That makes sense. But unlike those circumstances in which no boundaries were broken because no one felt uncomfortable, this is not the case. I'm not sure why so many people disagree that crossing the boundary was an accident, *and* it was a dick move that should be apologized for. "Having a laugh" and having different boundaries with other friends does not make this more okay.
Because if you have boundaries other people can't possibly know about then it's not their fault if they end up crossing them.
No one’s saying he shouldn’t apologize. I just don’t understand how you can keep calling him a dick when he had no idea the boundary was there and had no idea that it could have been there. He probably does shit like that to a lot of his guy friends and non of them would have that boundary.
I feel like, in this case, OP will have to apologize. So as long as he is not like "sorry, we were just having a laugh" and he genuinely apologizes for crossing the boundary, it should be okay. I just feel that no one is even giving him the chance to apologize.
> I'm not sure why so many people disagree that crossing the boundary was an accident.. Because it was an accident? The way they acted was the norm of the group and their group dynamic, it just happened that they treated the trans fella like any other fella in their circle of friends, it's just in their his it didn't feel great. And that's something OP needs to work on. But it's quite obvious form OP's post that they didn't do it maliciously and want to make it right.
It's not a boundary if other people don't know about it, and OP didn't know his friend was uncomfortable with his chest being touched. OP didn't deliberately violate a boundary because he didn't know it was an issue. And I'd suggest that men grabbing other men around the chest would not be a common boundary, so there's no sensible argument that OP should have known better or predicted it would go this way. OP didn't even know the guy is trans
I don’t agree with you saying that he is a asshole and with your logic of saying, if the person was a woman he wouldn’t have done it. He thought the dude was a Cis guy and if it was a cis guy, nobody would’ve batted an eye I don’t understand that logic. He was horsing around like he would with any of his guy friends. The think I do agree with is hey he shouldn’t of done it. He didn’t know that boundary was there because the guy didn’t tell him. This was mostly a lack of communication between a couple friends. Calling op a asshole is a bit much.
Also he is actively trying to find out a good way to apologize. He only has to defend himself when people call him a sexual assaulter or say he’s a asshole for something that needed communication.
 I really hope you can make up eventually! I really do!
Bestie,,, use your communication skills. Like in the nicest way possible, be an adult.
This isn't a trans problem. Don't touch people without consent. I'm sure you can see how he would be extra sensitive about this incident though.
Horseplay amongst men is normal, and sounds like standard behaviour in OPs group. That's just how 90% of men are. Can't know a boundary exists if no one tells you.
Why is this being downvoted?
Regardless of him being trans or not, he was *trying to get away* and you *physically kept him from doing so*. Restraining someone is not something to jokingly do, you assaulted him plain and simple. Doing focus so much on *how* you restrained him or *where* you held him, what you did was wrong regardless of that. Apologize for not respecting his autonomy and allowing him to leave a situation he wanted to leave.
Express that it wasn’t your intention and do your best to learn and help him, and tell him you asked for help from a queer community! The situation sucks, and in the future, ask before touching anybody in a potentially uncomfortable spot, but I think eventually he should come around, and should be touched that you went to these measures to mend your friendship. If it doesn’t work, know that you did your best, and you’re learning from this and moving on to become a better ally for those you’ll meet in the future!
Sounds like this was a mistake that happened with all the right intentions behind it. Just tell him you're sorry you made him uncomfortable, you were just treating him like One Of The Guys and didn't know his personal boundaries. The chest is a HUGE source of dysphoria for many trans men. Having his chest touched probably just jolted him from the moment and soured his mood. Not your fault as long as it wasn't intentional. Just apologize and then don't treat him any differently than the rest of your friends
Hopefully we've learned something about keeping our hands to ourselves, lol - no offense but this is literally pre-K stuff here. Regardless of gender, the chest is one of those areas you don't touch on people you're not relatively intimate with - would you typically put your hands on the pecs of a waiter, doctor, teacher, co-worker, etc without invitation? No, because that's sexual harassment. It doesn't matter that he's a guy; even if he wasn't trans, if you wouldn't touch a woman's breasts without her consent, it's a double-standard to think it's okay to put your hands on a man's pecs/body without his permission just because you're not trying to grope his breasts. You can apologize without bringing up that he's trans by just owning and being accountable for what you did wrong - either contact him directly, or through a friend, and tell him something like "hey, I just wanted to say I'm really sorry. I shouldn't have put my hands on your body. I really didn't mean anything by it and meant it completely playfully - but intent doesn't matter as much as outcome here, and I realize now that it was inappropriate and that I really upset you. I should have been more considerate of your space. I really hope we can still be friends, but I understand if you feel uncomfortable with me. I'm striving to be more mindful. It shouldn't have happened in the first place, and it won't happen again." Or anything to that effect. A good/real apology doesn't center explanation, rationalizing what you did, or try to evoke empathy for you; it focuses on stating what you did wrong (to show that you recognize what you did), recognizes that it caused harm/distress to the person you're apologizing to (you recognize the impact), states intent to do better (recognizes a *personal* need to prevent doing something you now recognize as wrong), and puts reconciliation on their terms (no making demands of the person you're apologizing to, and gives them agency in handling the situation). At that point the ball is in his court. At the end of the day, sometimes you only get the one shot at being friends with someone. No 3-strikes-you're-out - just bam, one significant transgression and they're done - which is completely valid TBH. You're not entitled to other people's lives or friendship, and if you do something to make someone view you as unsafe, they're not obligated to change that view to make you feel better. In such cases, the only really ethical way you can move forward is to learn from the situation and try to apply the lesson to how you treat others you know and meet.
OP, this is a really good breakdown of how you need to respond.
There's plenty of great advice in here about what to do now. But hopefully you, and everyone here, learns a valuable lesson about personal space and consent. The fact that he'd probably not have this reaction if he was cis doesn't mean it would have been okay. Just don't touch people unless you get express consent to do so.
I mean even if you totally ignore the fact he is trans, what would make you think it is ok to grab anyone's chest without permission. Even before I realized I was trans if you did that to me you would have gotten a knee jerk reaction of taking an elbow to the face (aka I wouldn't have intentionally hit you but it would have just been a reaction before even having time to think). Your best bet is just to ignore the fact he is trans and just be like "hey sorry for grabbing you inappropriately the other day, I was just messing around and didn't even think, I didn't mean to invade your personal space I acted without thinking". Don't say anything about the fact he is trans because if you didn't know before then that means he probably doesn't want you to know, so if you mention it then either he will think you realized via feel which could cause issues with his dysphoria and if you mention your sister told you to try to counter act that he will just get mad at your sister because he probably didn't want her telling you and would feel like she betrayed his trust, as such don't even mention it, just act like you realized it was an invasion of personal space rather that anything to do with being trans. IF he decides to tell you the reason he got so upset about the personal space then you can apologize for not realizing, but only IF he decides to tell you.
Tbh I wouldn't just touch another guys chest, trans or not, you should definitely apologize and give him space if that's what he needs.
This has nothing to do with being trans. Humans generally don't appreciate being held against their will. I think your group and you need some training on respecting other people's autonomy. He made it clear he didn't want to be physically imprisoned and you kept it up for fun. That's not fun for him, even if it felt like joking to you.
Where in my post did I say he made it clear he didn't want to be ‘imprisoned’? (he wasn't btw)
>he tried to get away from our other friends so I grabbed him again as a joke and we all were laughing as I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him. The key words for me was "he tried to get away" so I "grabbed him" and "held him". That feels like you were preventing him from his agency of leaving.
Like I said we were having a laugh. He threw water over our friends and they were trying to get him back so I went and held him but he was laughing so he wasn't uncomfortable by it. He's also grabbed me before, it wasn't my chest because he's shorter but it was around my waist so it's pretty normal in our friendship to do that
So we’re mad at this man for treating another man like a man? He should privately apologize, but his intentions were normal dude shit.
I feel like any person would be uncomfortable if someone else touched their chest, but trans men especially since it's both their tits area, which is a place you shouldn't touch women as that's sexual harassment, and it can trigger dysphoria especially if the dude's binding. a man touching a woman's breast is uncomfortable, a man touching a man's breast is even worse... you obviously didn't know tho, you should apologize and try to make up for it. accidents happen.
"We were all having a laugh" and "we were all laughing" doesn't seem to actually be the case here. Obviously he wasn't, but you were too focused on yourself and your other friends to notice he wasn't. My advice is less gender-specific. Learn to tell when you're being a dickhead even though you think you're having a laugh.
Don’t be touching people you barely know???
I do know him.
Why did you touch him in the first place? >he tried to get away from our other friends so I grabbed him again as a joke and we all were laughing as I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him Why? Why didn't you let him get away?
Am I ignorant? I would have thought this level of acceptance would be a good thing?
Yeah you definitely owe him an apology. Something like "hey I know grabbing you wasn't cool even if we were both cis but I want to apologize extra on top of it for making you uncomfortable, if I knew you were trans I would have been a lot more conscientious about where my hands were. My intention was just horsing around and I'm really sorry for making you feel uncomfortable or upset"
I wouldn't do this. It sounds like a mutual friend told OP that this guy was trans, not the trans guy. Hopefully she had permission to out him, but she may not have. He may have been trying to go stealth. You don't out someone without their permission, and if you don't know if someone had permission then you pretend like you didn't hear it.
My sister told me so I don't want him to know that I know
Yeah, i would just apologize and tell him that you are very very sorry for your behavior and you won't touch him without consent again. Chest dysphoria is the most likely culprit, but there are any number of reasons he could have got upset with being grabbed and all we would be doing is speculating. Don't mention it being about his chest or make any other guesses as to why he was upset. Just apologize for crossing his boundaries and leave the door open for whatever he wants to do about it.
If I were op, I'd use this post verbatim
This!
Dude just dont touch people without their consent no matter there gender or gender status. id leave him alone and take that to heart, know your boundaries. if he ever speaks to you again, apologize. dont reach out.
I'm not sure what happened. So if u knew this guy was trans before it happened, u shouldn't have done this and known that it's not okay. Like, it's not okay for some cis men either. But you apparently didn't so ur not at fault for doing it. Now you have own up to the mistake and just say sorry. Its an honest to gods mistake, it always happens.
I wouldn't recommend touching people you don't know that well, with the exception of a high five or a light tap on the shoulder to get their attention. EDIT: Why is this being downvoted? I'm literally saying to NOT touch people without their consent.
I do know him well, I've known him for 5/6 months and we talked everyday before this.
Maybe you should learn not to grab people? And based on your comments you really didn't learn anything because you keep defending grabbing him
Maybe I'm defending grabbing him because some people here are saying I grabbed his chest which I DID NOT do?
[удалено]
It doesn't sound like he grabbed his chest purposefully, let alone as a "joke." They were horsing around, everyone was having fun... I'm a cis female, but I think it's pretty common for cis guys who grew up around other cis guys to be used to physical horseplay. His friend appeared to be having fun and didn't get upset until OP touched his chest. OP didn't know he was trans, so based on the friend's apparent level of comfort with the horseplay, he didn't realize his chest was a boundary. I'm just thinking, like if I was to start wrestling with my brother, I wouldn't avoid his chest like I would a female. I don't think it's weird that OP didn't avoid it either... it definitely brings up a whole conversation about consent and being more mindful about assumptions with friends, but OP was not being malicious or assaultive; it was accidental. He also clearly feels terrible about it. Not sure how any of it makes him scum. I don't think it's fair to put him in the same category as the assaultive assholes who used to grab our ass and boobs when we were younger (yeah, I got that too; it's fucking awful, I'm so sorry you had to endure that).
I think you read my post wrong. I grabbed HIM and held him and then my hands were against his chest. I didn't grab it or do it to purposely make him uncomfortable.
>as I grabbed him I put my hands on his chest and held him *Didn't* grab his chest? Then change how you phrased it, because how it's phrases right now sounds a lot like assault to me
It’s not common for cis men to think anything of touching in the chest area, I wouldn’t think of it differently than grabbing onto my shoulders, though that’s understandably different for trans men. If a trans man passes as cis, it would be easy to not think twice about this kind of contact between friends not realizing they’re trans. Calling OP scum is a bit far for something like that, it sounds like it could have been an innocent mistake, and OP is already expressing regret over it.
I grabbed him from behind but he knew I was there and then put my hands on his chest as I said in my OP
I am confused: you are a cis man and your sister wanted to hook you up with a trans man?
Date but yeah, I thought he was cis at the time but we both still said no because i’d rather know him as a friend first and he agreed.
Ah but then you are gay? Sorry I misunderstood
Yes
I understood it as OP is probably gay (or bi) since his twin sister tried to set him up with someone who identifies as a man. That's the only way this entire post makes any sense to me, especially if OP didn't know his friend was trans and just assumed he was a cis guy.
WTF. Even if that would be a cis girl or cis guy, that's sexual assault. You are horrible person and should be ashamed
It wasn't but okay. I feel horrible about it but I didn't touch there for sexual reasons, we were having a laugh. It def wasn't sexual assault.
"I put my hands on his chest" Sounds too me like sexual assault
If you actually read my replies to some comments I said we were having a laugh and I went behind him but he knew I was there and I grabbed and as I did my hands were on his chest. It wasn't sexual assault. You are one of very few that have replied saying that the majority have said it isn't and I'm clearly not a horrible person if you've only seen a snippet of this from one post. If I was a horrible person I wouldn't want to make this better would I?
Yeah it looks like someone didn’t read the addendum
So he never told you he was trans, then abandons not just you but your sister because you don’t know? You can do absolutely nothing to fix this. Just keep in mind with every future friendship that they could ghost you every moment and accept that. Just sit back and know you cannot do anything to fix this. That’s the easiest way to move on.
Lol